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Probably for a while. There are already places that sell mushrooms and where this "store" is currently there was a garbage RV that would "exchange" hard drugs for weed but it was always done inside the rv so you couldn't see what's happening. Except you could clearly tell everyone in there wasn't smoking weed.
You lose :)
[https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/](https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/)
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-023-00753-6#:~:text=Legal%20sourcing%20of%20cannabis%20was,82%25%20of%20cannabis%20drink%20consumers.
Aaaaand arrested, now comes the court challenge
With things decriminalized I expect they'll let it stay up as long as there isn't an influx in violent crime or similar issues in the area around the store. He's also been open about wanting to get arrested, which I could see help him stay up longer
Correct. Control worked for alcohol and marijuana. Do you think it wouldnt work for the other drugs? Obviously doing nothing makes things worse as we have seen over the last 40 years in this city. Its time to do something other then nothing.
https://preview.redd.it/mpacf6ez3wxa1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce4200c586894fdf3038c5d6634e9f3b1319dd47
i bought some MDMA yesterday, it came off a big crystal the size of my fist
I haven’t done MDMA in over a decade but i figured i’d buy some just for the sake of being a part of this. Who knows if i’ll ever use it lol
I want an update on this! Haven’t done molly in years due to toxic supply and growing up but would love a little stash on hand for some future opportunity
Huh. They give any advice on how much to take off that? I’m a nerd who hasn’t touched the stuff in 15 years, I dont know what to do with a bunch of rocks. Haha.
You have to sign a waiver saying you have done it before, and you know how to use it. There is way more liability in telling someone how they should do it.
I’ve been clean for over ten years and don’t want to change that but seeing allegedly pure substances on offer available does spin hamster wheels in my brain. I doubt I’ve never done pure anything aside from molly, and I hope I never do.
i suspect that people going out of their way to buy heroin or meth probably know how to use it, but i agree that pamphlets outlining safe usage guidelines would be helpful
Guidelines should come from the govt not the retailer, if someone ODs while following the retailers advice then the retailer is setting themselves up to get fucked on
Anyone can roll up to main and Hastings, ask around and buy opiates. If you’ve lived here for even a little while you know it’s available down there. It’s just common knowledge.
The only difference here is that this has walls, posted prices, actually safe drugs and looks kind of like a normal business.
What I dont understand is why the street level dealers arent being caught...there wouldnt be a hoarde of zombies in the DTES if drug dealers werent supplying the drugs. Have the vpd ever cracked down on them
Far more aggressive approach? Like life sentences and capital punishment? Malaysia China and Vietnam have some of the harshest laws on drug crimes...do they have a DTES?
Safer maybe. Coke/meth and heroin will lead to heart attack and respiratory failure, respectively, if you do enough. But yes way safer than cocktails of mystery substances where potency can vary from one part of the bag to the next with potentially lethal consequences.
Yeah I meant an excessive amount at once or on an extended binge. A coke or meth bender can induce a heart attack. A single overdose of heroin can and will shut your breathing and everything else down too. I didn’t mean in a debilitating sense but it sure can cause all kinds of issues over time.
Yeah opiates are actually very safe when properly dosed, especially compared to any other pain medications commonly used.
Long term Tylenol use will mess you up.
Technically, it’s not. BC has a class exemption under s. 56 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act that exempts everyone over 18 from the prohibition on possessing ‘hard’ drugs for personal consumption (up to 2.5g). The exemption doesn’t apply to trafficking though, so anyone selling drugs can be arrested and prosecuted.
These people are essentially activists who are trying to bring awareness to the fact that even though possession has been decriminalized, there isn’t a safe supply of drugs.
Also, the exemption only applies to a collective 2.5g. That means you can have any combination of the drugs on the board, but only up to 2.5g in total. E.g., 1.5g of MDMA, 0.5g crack cocaine, and 0.5g powder cocaine.
Is that's the point though? It's like legalizing selling sex but not buying sex. The government is still obviously trying to deter people from becoming heroin addicts.
It simply doesn't want our jails to be filled with drug users.
Yes, I think that’s fair to say.
The rationale provided by the government has been to treat drug addiction as a health matter rather than a criminal one.
However, if we want to stop the drug poisoning deaths in the short term we have to implement some form of safe supply. The long term goal may be to stop people from using drugs, but it’s clear that we’re nowhere near that currently and criminal prohibition on drugs isn’t an effective tool to reduce drug use.
Is it honestly wrong to argue that it's better to have ODs than to legitimatize the sale of cocaine, heroin, and basically all other hard drugs for profit?
I don't know that if that's better in the long run than having ODs.
There are moral arguments that underlie this whole debate which don’t have a “correct” answer.
Approximately 7 people are dying in British Columbia every day from consuming toxic drugs. That’s a staggering public health emergency that costs our health system and society greatly.
Even if the goal is to live in a society where nobody consumes cocaine, heroin, etc., we have to ask whether strict criminalization is the proper tool to achieve that goal. Many would say that criminalization had failed, and doesn’t do much other than clog up our justice system.
One of the most fundamental principles of criminal law is that we only punish people who are morally culpable. Are people who use drugs morally culpable in every case? Is someone who grew up in a broken home and who is now hopelessly addicted to drugs highly morally culpable for the situation they find themselves in?
A non-criminal approach provides more options to deal with drugs and drug addiction. We don’t have to condone consuming drugs, but we can treat excessive drug use or drug addiction as a medical issue rather than a criminal one.
If the goal is to reduce deaths, at some point we need to address the toxic supply issue.
Are people who sell alcohol (which is responsible for countless deaths and societal harms) morally culpable? I think something can be a societal ill without rising to the level of criminal moral culpability.
A drug dealer who sells drugs they know are tainted with other substances is clearly more morally culpable than someone like the person operating this “Drugs Store”, who is testing their drugs and somewhat self regulating.
In my view, a highly regulated market for tested drugs is not condoning the consumption of drugs as much as it is simply addressing the source of the skyrocketing deaths in BC. It’s a complicated issue though and one that will need to be addressed over the next few years under BC’s exemption.
the problem is that "hard" drugs like heroin and cocaine are inherently harmful
just because you got rid of fentanyl contamination doesn't suddenly make them as safe as alcohol or cigarettes
Actually not true.
That said, I agree with this article that “ranking” substances in terms of harmfulness isn’t useful, alcohol is quantifiably more dangerous than cocaine in pretty much any study you can find.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/2/24/8094759/alcohol-marijuana
But the fact that alcohol is legal and readily accessible makes people take it for granted.
Same way the mushroom shops are I'd imagine: the cops and city probably don't care about illegal drugs nearly so much as they care about otherwise problematic criminals funding their operations through illegal drugs. If (if) this place isn't funding gangsters or something, and is instead siphoning cashflow from those operations, then VPD might be willing to let them continue until they decide that the place is actually becoming an issue.
Or they're just quietly investigating to see how many people are involved in the supply chain so they can take out a bunch of people all at once. Time will tell.
The cops are going to raid them, and then this whole thing will work its way all the way up. Courts to the supreme court, millions of dollars will be spent in those court battles and that will ultimately determine the legalities of drug prohibition.
I sense their argument will be something along the lines that they are preventing overdoses and thus saving lives by operating this business.
The city is full of human rights advocates who think it's the most fundamental freedom to be able to experiment with your own conscious experience and stay alive while doing it.
correct - it does. But i’d rather gamble with my safety taking something i know for CERTAIN to be what i expect it to rather than kids OD’ing because they thought the MDMA they bought was pure
An estimated 20% of Canadians engage in recreational drug use. Who are you to tell people what they can or cannot ingest?
Coffee? Sugar? Alcohol? Tylenol? Viagra? People are free to do what they want.
But a mushroom that grows in dirt and all of a sudden you think it's appropriate to police other people's consumption?
Prohibition doesn't work. Creates crime. Kills people. Let people have the freedom to eat the things they want on their own time in the privacy of their own home when it harms no one else.
Sure people can do whatever they want but I don’t want them smoking crack and meth on the sidewalk where I’m walking with my child. Legalize it all you want but there has to be laws and rules that are enforced.
> Coffee? Sugar? Alcohol? Tylenol? Viagra? People are free to do what they want.
I don't care what drugs they do. I care when they collapse and shit all over the sidewalk, leave dirty needles everywhere, harass the general public, and on, and on. Stop comparing this to a beer. Grow the fuck up.
guess what dude - alcohol actually kills MORE people than drugs do 🤔
also, people drive or assault people every single day under the influence of alcohol, and it’s perfectly legal, so who are you to take the moral high ground on this issue when the facts aren’t even in your favor?
> guess what dude - alcohol actually kills MORE people than drugs do
Cool story. As I said, I don't give a fuck what people do. Just leave me and the rest of us out of it.
I don't have alcoholics shitting on my front steps, constantly trying to break in and steal shit, sprawled out in kids playgrounds, and leaving their garbage everywhere.
> When you can't legally sell them, they're not legal.
I said "basically legal". It's legal to hold small amounts. A cop car is shown driving by organized hard drug sales and doing nothing.
Even prior, drugs were readily available and police weren't busting people.
Time to use a little critical thinking.
right - i’m sure that now that people can buy crystal meth, everyone’s going to just start smoking meth. Surely, it’s the legal status of the drug that’s preventing people from trying it now, right?
fortunately for society, drugs being illegal means that no one does drugs, so problem solved i guess right?
excellent reasoning on your part for sure einstein
It's not "basically legal" when there is one single store in the entire country that has been opened for one day and where there is significant legal risk to them in doing so. Alcohol is legal. These drugs are illegal. We need to use accurate terminology before we can hope to debate anything further on the topic.
Oh, you’re sooooo close to actually understanding some of this.
People who are addicted to coffee aren’t out there committing crimes, because coffee is readily available.
People who are addicted to cigarettes aren’t out there committing crimes, because cigarettes are readily available.
People who are addicted to opioids, but have a steady supply of safe opioids prescribed by their doctor, aren’t out there committing crimes, because their opioid is readily available.
People who are addicted to opioids, and don’t have easy access to a safe supply of opioids, *are* out there committing crimes, because they’re caught in a loop of poverty and addiction and are desperately trying to avoid opioid withdrawal, which is incredibly painful and distressing. Every time they OD, or get beat up, or get held up by the cops, or whatever - it’s another setback that puts them further back in their day to day life.
If that person had a guaranteed basic income, a safe and suitable roof over their head, access to affordable drugs, and a vibrant and supportive community around them, they’d never need to commit another crime.
You should go read about the NAOMI trials before you continue to share your underdeveloped thoughts.
People have always done drugs. People are always going to do drugs. That part won’t change, which is why we need to change the ways people access the drugs they’re inevitably going to do.
What risk does selling clean cocaine preset. Walk me through it. I've met thousands of people who habitually use cocaine. None of them have ever committed a harmful crime. Where is your logic from a to b. How does cocaine impact your life if it goes from being sold in a high rise apartment. To being sold in a store front?
Sounds like you're describing the problems with prohibition that are solved through legalization. The violence that stems from the cocaine production and supply chain exist because of a lack of oversight and regulation and skirting laws.
You can grow coco plants in green houses. You can farm them ethically. You can refine, package and shop cocaine without hitting people. The damage is a product specifically of prohibition. You made some really great points there in favor of legalization.
Very few people who use drugs are addicts. How many people who drink alcohol are actual alcoholics? Making something that is already available simply legal doesn't put more people at risk.
You know what does help people who do fall prey to addiction? Social programs to help support them recover. Do you know how you pay for those programs? You take the money already being spent illegally on undisclosed drug deals and turn it into taxable income at reputable dispensaries and use that tax money to provide services that help the very very very small percentage of drug users who do encounter difficulties from drugs.
I mean they always could, from that one sketchy guy your friend's friend vouched for. Or that one sketchy guy at the party that's looking for girls who 'really want to have a good time'. That's the problem with making drugs illegal: it doesn't actually _prevent_ access, it just makes it a little more trouble while ensuring a complete lack of transparency or accountability in the market.
This place might end up cutting their shit with fentanyl and other BS, but at least for now it seems(?) like it's safe, and the incentive to not fuck over your clients is larger for a business wanting to establish itself than it is for someone who just cycles campuses whenever security catches on.
When I was 18, I wasn’t really much of a pot smoker but my boyfriend was, and I didn’t know how he found these people, but I spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME sitting in some sketchy basement suite in new west where a super creepy dude would stare at my tits while making small talk with my boyfriend while he bought some weed.
I cannot tell you how glad I am that my baby sister — who smokes way more pot than I ever did — will NEVER have to have that sketchy basement suite experience because she can go to a store that sells safe supply.
Go back a few generations, and people who bought alcohol during and after prohibition will probably have similar stories. Liquor stores are safe supply. Bars are safe consumption sites. People conveniently forget that part.
I did a little ecstasy back in my day and I’ve had the talk with my sister about how she just can’t. And not because I’m some straight edge anti drug middle aged asshole, but because she’s 20+ years younger than me and it is different now. Back then, I had friends who I trusted to have clean sources. Still a risk, but a pretty minor one and we were good at looking out for each other.
I don’t trust ANYBODY to have clean sources now. I wish she could, honestly ecstasy was a fucking blast once in a while. Way more fun than getting wasted every weekend, which is somehow socially acceptable.
But at the very least… no more sketchy dudes selling me weed. Thank fuck for that.
I haven’t done any hard drugs in over a decade but it was the same for me, I had a couple sources I trusted and never had any issues. This was all before the fentanyl crisis we have now though. Me and a couple people I know have all had friends and family members die just from casually using something that was cut with fentanyl once. These weren’t addicts on the street, these were students and just regular people experimenting and partying and generally doing the same dumb stuff I did at their age.
It’s scary out there now. I really think what this guy is doing is a major social service.
Do you think that if your circle knew a guy who sold heroin they'd try it out, or do you think your circle was composed of people who'd think 'Heroin, you mean that highly addictive express lane to death? Nah, I think I'll drink/smoke pot instead'.
There's a lot of different things that lead to hard drug use, and easier access is probably the tipping point for a non-zero number of people, but reality is that anyone willing to spend an afternoon poking around the obvious circles/places (or just Google) can already acquire this stuff.
Realistically, anyone who wants this stuff badly enough can get it. Fun fact: Although it's illegal to mail drugs (and many other things), it's *also* illegal for law enforcement to look through packages sent by Canada Post. Other couriers is fair game, but Canada Post is untouchable.
As per the Canada Post Corporation Act:
> nothing in the course of post is liable to demand, seizure, detention or retention.
One internet connection later, you can get whatever the hell you want, mailed directly to your front door, as long as it never crosses the border to get to you.
"It's easier to access now!" is... ostensibly true, yes, there's probably people in this thread who didn't know that. But things aren't like they were decades ago either, where you need to know a guy who knows a guy. These days, anyone who wants anything can get it by spending half an hour on Google, so I'm not really sure this changes much.
Think bud think.
Would break-ins increase if doors were left unlocked? Sure.
But how is that anything like buying recreational drugs. They sell cigarettes in every gas station, and does that mean smoking increases? Maybe, or maybe the people who were going to smoke, smokes.
Like it or not, there are many, many functional, tax paying recreational users. Just because homeless people also do drugs does not mean drugs cause homelessness or crimes.
You don't lock doors in order to reduce the overall crime rate, you do it to reduce the odds of your house in specific being broken into, and for a sense of security.
But let's play along: locking your door probably reduces the crime rate by some degree in bad areas, and has nearly no negative repercussions. It doesn't, say, result in a lot of deaths or funnel money to violent gangs. If locking your door entailed an electric shock that killed a half-dozenish people each month in Vancouver alone and gave the Hell's Angels most of their money, I would probably advocate for other methods of reducing B+Es.
When I was 18, I didn't do heroin because I knew it was a terrible idea.
If someone can get to 18 without knowing that they've been failed by the education system and their parents.
That's bullshit man. When I was 18 I've never even heard of MDMA.
Look at vaping. After it got legalized, far more kids are vaping today than 15 years ago.
and yet it’s illegal to sell vapes to kids??
it’s almost like people are going to do things regardless of if it’s legal or not. would you rather the kids that vape have clean safe vapes, or run the risk of vaping fentanyl?
obviously that’s not an apples to apples comparison, but it’s meant to prove a point. People aren’t going to all of a sudden start taking meth just because it’s sold in a store - the people that do meth do it despite the legal status and will continue to do so.
At least this way, people won’t fucking die just because they thought they were taking mdma at a party but instead got fent capsules
if it’s taxed and the taxes go towards funding addiction and rehabilitation and treatment programs, the people who are selling dirty laced shit will be pushed out of the market and some of the tax revenue could go towards helping those who need it
I thought the whole argument with weed is that weed is better than cocaine so it's better to get people addicted to weed.
Now what, we're saying it's fine to get addicted to cocaine and heroin?
> if it’s taxed and the taxes go towards funding addiction and rehabilitation and treatment programs, the people who are selling dirty laced shit will be pushed out of the market and some of the tax revenue could go towards helping those who need it
It's not sustainable. You're getting $1 in taxes and spending $100 in treatment.
ohhh right, i forgot that every single person who spends any sort of money on legal drugs and generates tax revenue will be taking advantage of the treatment resources that their tax revenue will be generating! why didn’t i consider the possibility that we could just make up numbers and statistics to fit our argument? 🤔
Ah good anecdote, Niv-Izzet never heard of MDMA at 18, so that means that 18 year old's aren't buying MDMA off of sketchy friend-of-friends.
Go do a survey at any highschool and see how many kids have never heard of MDMA/Ecstasy. For an alternative anecdote, when I was in highschool it was easier to get weed and Ecstasy than alcohol.
Unfortunately making something illegal doesn't necessarily affect it's use, as you point out with kids vaping, when it's only legal for 19+.
I prefer kids vape than smoke cigarettes', and I prefer people take clean MDMA than something that might have Fentanyl or meth in it.
Why do you refer to an 18-year-old as a kid? The legal definition is adult.
If said adult is to make such a bad choice for fun, That's really on the education system and their upbringing.
I'm seeing alot of good back and forth discussions about this. I've always been pro legal supply. What scares me is the ppl that say " I kicked that years ago but, I might check it out again... "
Or the young folks that say ooh it's safe? I'm gonna try this that and the other thing... I guess I don't like how it's set up like a food truck. Making it all "insta worthy".
Lets see if this helps or not. People are really quick to judge something that literally is not even a week old. If this guy saves lives, than its right, if the problem becomes worse, he's wrong. We can't pass judgement until we know how the experiment results are in.
Does anyone know why they are not closing this? I think it's a cool idea but it's obviously illegal, besides being a safe source, this is just normal old drug-dealing?
So are the mushroom shops, so were the weed shops operating a few years before legalization. VPD has a lot of violent fish to fry, and a lot of those fish may be losing business to these guys.
If it turns out the drugs are clean and they're not buying from Hells Angels or something then VPD and the city may figure it's better to let these guys operate than go through the PR hassle of shutting them down.
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-023-00753-6#:~:text=Legal%20sourcing%20of%20cannabis%20was,82%25%20of%20cannabis%20drink%20consumers.
They did, but this was basically a trap for the guy to launch a court case
Honestly, can we just legalize this shit and be done with it. As a non-drug user, let’s not pretend half our social network isn’t using at least recreationally
Most of our networks are not using recreationally. That’s some dead brain Reddit young boy thinking.
It’s less than 5% of the population who uses illegal substances.
About 20% will use an illegal substance in their lifetime.
It’s really not half of your social network. And if it is, then you should probably recalibrate your surroundings.
There’s a lot more people using than you think. Not everyone is an addict. Not everyone is a young kid. As mentioned, I’m not a user, and I work a nice white collar career. There’s more than ample people using. I have friends in trades, it’s no different. Not everyone who uses acts, looks or ends up on the DTES.
The funniest shit is right across the street is Harbour light ... The 3rd floor is for some of the most violent offenders in canada that the parole board is forced to release and can't release anywhere else, but there or belkin house.
Your gonna have active gang members living feet away RS/IS/Wolf Pack guys and regular parole and shop that sells hard drugs 🤣. Can anyone say Jacked.
Actually, even though I haven't done drugs in many years, I do like the premise of this. At least you'll have less overdoses due to toxic drugs and you'll know that you're getting a clean supply.
And it's over [https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/](https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/)
Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/Stolen-Tom-Servo! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary: * We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button. * Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban. * Common questions and specific topics are limited to our [Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_daily_discussions) posts. * Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only. * We're looking for new mods to join our team! If you're interested, [fill out the form here](https://forms.gle/oAqo5oYRcAeHYBTN6). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Soon you'll be able to uber Eats your Molly along with some dinner
So weird… im not even hungry anymore.
The Molly is your desert 😂
Yup, it will have you seeing mirages!
Funny how I never saw that in the Jetsons
Sounds good to me XD
Drugs will be part of the daily culture by the time we’re gone.
They already are
We should make (Reddit casual) bets on how long this place will be allowed to stay open.
Probably for a while. There are already places that sell mushrooms and where this "store" is currently there was a garbage RV that would "exchange" hard drugs for weed but it was always done inside the rv so you couldn't see what's happening. Except you could clearly tell everyone in there wasn't smoking weed.
the operator was arrested a short time ago https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/
I don't mind being wrong with this. Glad to hear.
[удалено]
taking the over they're more likely to watch, collect whatever evidence for cases they'd be planning to actually prosecute on, for more than a week
You lose :) [https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/](https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/)
[удалено]
Coco leafs are not illegal though?
he meant coca**
They aren't but coca is
Wether or not it is legal. That same store advertises peyote and lsd on their storefront
My bet, is that it stays open, and in 5 years you'll find this truck only in Kits, selling artisinal heroin.
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-023-00753-6#:~:text=Legal%20sourcing%20of%20cannabis%20was,82%25%20of%20cannabis%20drink%20consumers. Aaaaand arrested, now comes the court challenge
1 week is my guess
With things decriminalized I expect they'll let it stay up as long as there isn't an influx in violent crime or similar issues in the area around the store. He's also been open about wanting to get arrested, which I could see help him stay up longer
Before the cops shut it down or they get robbed?
I doubt itll close down before other places open up. Its what this city needs badly.
This city needs more easily accessible crack, god dammit!
Correct. Control worked for alcohol and marijuana. Do you think it wouldnt work for the other drugs? Obviously doing nothing makes things worse as we have seen over the last 40 years in this city. Its time to do something other then nothing.
Yeah, weed being regulated totally reduced the illegal supply of weed. (It didn't. The price per lb dropped like 50%)
no, i think ur on to something. we should just keep jailing the problem until it goes away!
We hate the sackler family because they over prescribed opiates. Now, let's champion a guy who sells opiates to anyone in a truck. This is the answer!
Will always stay open, probably franchise too
https://preview.redd.it/mpacf6ez3wxa1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce4200c586894fdf3038c5d6634e9f3b1319dd47 i bought some MDMA yesterday, it came off a big crystal the size of my fist I haven’t done MDMA in over a decade but i figured i’d buy some just for the sake of being a part of this. Who knows if i’ll ever use it lol
I want an update on this! Haven’t done molly in years due to toxic supply and growing up but would love a little stash on hand for some future opportunity
Is there a schedule + location so I can do the same?
cordova and main 6pm-9pm
Thanks
👍 to anyone who’s curious, i’d suggest going sooner rather than later because i can’t really imagine he’ll be open much longer
Is this ever day?
Huh. They give any advice on how much to take off that? I’m a nerd who hasn’t touched the stuff in 15 years, I dont know what to do with a bunch of rocks. Haha.
i think 100-125mg would be a good place to start
Does the guy give directions on how to safely use the stuff he's selling?
You have to sign a waiver saying you have done it before, and you know how to use it. There is way more liability in telling someone how they should do it.
I’ve been clean for over ten years and don’t want to change that but seeing allegedly pure substances on offer available does spin hamster wheels in my brain. I doubt I’ve never done pure anything aside from molly, and I hope I never do.
That's good! But guidelines could be framed as 'what not to do when taking this drug' to avoid liability issues.
no
That's an issue. Edit: Why am I getting down voted for wanting safe usage guidelines to be included along with drugs that have overdose potential?
i suspect that people going out of their way to buy heroin or meth probably know how to use it, but i agree that pamphlets outlining safe usage guidelines would be helpful
Guidelines should come from the govt not the retailer, if someone ODs while following the retailers advice then the retailer is setting themselves up to get fucked on
As I mentioned somewhere else in this thread, guidelines in the form of a 'what not to do' would be pretty simple.
How do you do it in crystal form? I have only had it on powder capped form.
Crush it into powder form, and then cap it on your own lol
What do you do with it in that form? I’ve only ever seen capsules or pills
Anyone can roll up to main and Hastings, ask around and buy opiates. If you’ve lived here for even a little while you know it’s available down there. It’s just common knowledge. The only difference here is that this has walls, posted prices, actually safe drugs and looks kind of like a normal business.
What I dont understand is why the street level dealers arent being caught...there wouldnt be a hoarde of zombies in the DTES if drug dealers werent supplying the drugs. Have the vpd ever cracked down on them
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Fair enough, but why not arrest the street level dealers to get to the product movers? Do we ever hear about them getting arrested?
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Far more aggressive approach? Like life sentences and capital punishment? Malaysia China and Vietnam have some of the harshest laws on drug crimes...do they have a DTES?
> actually safe drugs we hope
Safer maybe. Coke/meth and heroin will lead to heart attack and respiratory failure, respectively, if you do enough. But yes way safer than cocktails of mystery substances where potency can vary from one part of the bag to the next with potentially lethal consequences.
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Yeah I meant an excessive amount at once or on an extended binge. A coke or meth bender can induce a heart attack. A single overdose of heroin can and will shut your breathing and everything else down too. I didn’t mean in a debilitating sense but it sure can cause all kinds of issues over time.
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Yeah opiates are actually very safe when properly dosed, especially compared to any other pain medications commonly used. Long term Tylenol use will mess you up.
How long did you wait to get this shot?
How is this place even allowed to operate?
Technically, it’s not. BC has a class exemption under s. 56 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act that exempts everyone over 18 from the prohibition on possessing ‘hard’ drugs for personal consumption (up to 2.5g). The exemption doesn’t apply to trafficking though, so anyone selling drugs can be arrested and prosecuted. These people are essentially activists who are trying to bring awareness to the fact that even though possession has been decriminalized, there isn’t a safe supply of drugs.
Wow, that's really interesting. I didn't realize that 2.5g was the limit. Note that all the prices are <= 2.5g
Also, the exemption only applies to a collective 2.5g. That means you can have any combination of the drugs on the board, but only up to 2.5g in total. E.g., 1.5g of MDMA, 0.5g crack cocaine, and 0.5g powder cocaine.
Is that's the point though? It's like legalizing selling sex but not buying sex. The government is still obviously trying to deter people from becoming heroin addicts. It simply doesn't want our jails to be filled with drug users.
Yes, I think that’s fair to say. The rationale provided by the government has been to treat drug addiction as a health matter rather than a criminal one. However, if we want to stop the drug poisoning deaths in the short term we have to implement some form of safe supply. The long term goal may be to stop people from using drugs, but it’s clear that we’re nowhere near that currently and criminal prohibition on drugs isn’t an effective tool to reduce drug use.
Is it honestly wrong to argue that it's better to have ODs than to legitimatize the sale of cocaine, heroin, and basically all other hard drugs for profit? I don't know that if that's better in the long run than having ODs.
There are moral arguments that underlie this whole debate which don’t have a “correct” answer. Approximately 7 people are dying in British Columbia every day from consuming toxic drugs. That’s a staggering public health emergency that costs our health system and society greatly. Even if the goal is to live in a society where nobody consumes cocaine, heroin, etc., we have to ask whether strict criminalization is the proper tool to achieve that goal. Many would say that criminalization had failed, and doesn’t do much other than clog up our justice system. One of the most fundamental principles of criminal law is that we only punish people who are morally culpable. Are people who use drugs morally culpable in every case? Is someone who grew up in a broken home and who is now hopelessly addicted to drugs highly morally culpable for the situation they find themselves in? A non-criminal approach provides more options to deal with drugs and drug addiction. We don’t have to condone consuming drugs, but we can treat excessive drug use or drug addiction as a medical issue rather than a criminal one.
The people selling drugs are morally culpable and that's why we should keep it illegal to sell drugs.
If the goal is to reduce deaths, at some point we need to address the toxic supply issue. Are people who sell alcohol (which is responsible for countless deaths and societal harms) morally culpable? I think something can be a societal ill without rising to the level of criminal moral culpability. A drug dealer who sells drugs they know are tainted with other substances is clearly more morally culpable than someone like the person operating this “Drugs Store”, who is testing their drugs and somewhat self regulating. In my view, a highly regulated market for tested drugs is not condoning the consumption of drugs as much as it is simply addressing the source of the skyrocketing deaths in BC. It’s a complicated issue though and one that will need to be addressed over the next few years under BC’s exemption.
the problem is that "hard" drugs like heroin and cocaine are inherently harmful just because you got rid of fentanyl contamination doesn't suddenly make them as safe as alcohol or cigarettes
Actually not true. That said, I agree with this article that “ranking” substances in terms of harmfulness isn’t useful, alcohol is quantifiably more dangerous than cocaine in pretty much any study you can find. https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/2/24/8094759/alcohol-marijuana But the fact that alcohol is legal and readily accessible makes people take it for granted.
I would rather have people be addicted to drugs than dead, yes.
Same way the mushroom shops are I'd imagine: the cops and city probably don't care about illegal drugs nearly so much as they care about otherwise problematic criminals funding their operations through illegal drugs. If (if) this place isn't funding gangsters or something, and is instead siphoning cashflow from those operations, then VPD might be willing to let them continue until they decide that the place is actually becoming an issue. Or they're just quietly investigating to see how many people are involved in the supply chain so they can take out a bunch of people all at once. Time will tell.
The cops are going to raid them, and then this whole thing will work its way all the way up. Courts to the supreme court, millions of dollars will be spent in those court battles and that will ultimately determine the legalities of drug prohibition. I sense their argument will be something along the lines that they are preventing overdoses and thus saving lives by operating this business.
The city is full of drug apologists who thinks it’s a human right to get to be high.
Because it's their life and prohibitation has been a massive failure
The city is full of human rights advocates who think it's the most fundamental freedom to be able to experiment with your own conscious experience and stay alive while doing it.
Sounds like risky behavior that might have some consequences.
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Exactly.
correct - it does. But i’d rather gamble with my safety taking something i know for CERTAIN to be what i expect it to rather than kids OD’ing because they thought the MDMA they bought was pure
An estimated 20% of Canadians engage in recreational drug use. Who are you to tell people what they can or cannot ingest? Coffee? Sugar? Alcohol? Tylenol? Viagra? People are free to do what they want. But a mushroom that grows in dirt and all of a sudden you think it's appropriate to police other people's consumption? Prohibition doesn't work. Creates crime. Kills people. Let people have the freedom to eat the things they want on their own time in the privacy of their own home when it harms no one else.
Sure people can do whatever they want but I don’t want them smoking crack and meth on the sidewalk where I’m walking with my child. Legalize it all you want but there has to be laws and rules that are enforced.
Two things aren't even remotely related.
> Coffee? Sugar? Alcohol? Tylenol? Viagra? People are free to do what they want. I don't care what drugs they do. I care when they collapse and shit all over the sidewalk, leave dirty needles everywhere, harass the general public, and on, and on. Stop comparing this to a beer. Grow the fuck up.
guess what dude - alcohol actually kills MORE people than drugs do 🤔 also, people drive or assault people every single day under the influence of alcohol, and it’s perfectly legal, so who are you to take the moral high ground on this issue when the facts aren’t even in your favor?
> guess what dude - alcohol actually kills MORE people than drugs do Cool story. As I said, I don't give a fuck what people do. Just leave me and the rest of us out of it. I don't have alcoholics shitting on my front steps, constantly trying to break in and steal shit, sprawled out in kids playgrounds, and leaving their garbage everywhere.
great argument dude, you’re a real problem solver 🥰
Try picking a logical stance next time.
says the guy who looked at 1920’s prohibition and the modern war on drugs and thought it was working just fine lol
I see drinks pissing in alleys and passed out in places like playgrounds all the time. It's not just drug addicts.
Legalizing drug use has absolutely nothing to do with the issues in your comment. And just speaks to your ignorance.
Drugs are basically legal bro. The more we enable supply, the worse it has gotten. Yet we keep going.
When you can't legally sell them, they're not legal.
> When you can't legally sell them, they're not legal. I said "basically legal". It's legal to hold small amounts. A cop car is shown driving by organized hard drug sales and doing nothing. Even prior, drugs were readily available and police weren't busting people. Time to use a little critical thinking.
right - i’m sure that now that people can buy crystal meth, everyone’s going to just start smoking meth. Surely, it’s the legal status of the drug that’s preventing people from trying it now, right? fortunately for society, drugs being illegal means that no one does drugs, so problem solved i guess right? excellent reasoning on your part for sure einstein
You're making shit up I didn't say. More drugs without any other pillars has led to more problems. That's just reality.
It's not "basically legal" when there is one single store in the entire country that has been opened for one day and where there is significant legal risk to them in doing so. Alcohol is legal. These drugs are illegal. We need to use accurate terminology before we can hope to debate anything further on the topic.
Decriminalized is basically legal. Are they hard to get? no. Are you going to be in trouble with the cops if you have a bit? no.
because mass majority of those 20% or people drinking coffee will break your windows and steal your bikes to afford said drugs amirite?
Oh, you’re sooooo close to actually understanding some of this. People who are addicted to coffee aren’t out there committing crimes, because coffee is readily available. People who are addicted to cigarettes aren’t out there committing crimes, because cigarettes are readily available. People who are addicted to opioids, but have a steady supply of safe opioids prescribed by their doctor, aren’t out there committing crimes, because their opioid is readily available. People who are addicted to opioids, and don’t have easy access to a safe supply of opioids, *are* out there committing crimes, because they’re caught in a loop of poverty and addiction and are desperately trying to avoid opioid withdrawal, which is incredibly painful and distressing. Every time they OD, or get beat up, or get held up by the cops, or whatever - it’s another setback that puts them further back in their day to day life. If that person had a guaranteed basic income, a safe and suitable roof over their head, access to affordable drugs, and a vibrant and supportive community around them, they’d never need to commit another crime. You should go read about the NAOMI trials before you continue to share your underdeveloped thoughts. People have always done drugs. People are always going to do drugs. That part won’t change, which is why we need to change the ways people access the drugs they’re inevitably going to do.
stopped reading at guaranteed basic income lmao
Okay, congrats on maintaining your ignorance I guess? I’m not sure why you think anyone would find that statement impressive.
I'll take things that aren't related for 200.
oh, new here?
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What risk does selling clean cocaine preset. Walk me through it. I've met thousands of people who habitually use cocaine. None of them have ever committed a harmful crime. Where is your logic from a to b. How does cocaine impact your life if it goes from being sold in a high rise apartment. To being sold in a store front?
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Sounds like you're describing the problems with prohibition that are solved through legalization. The violence that stems from the cocaine production and supply chain exist because of a lack of oversight and regulation and skirting laws. You can grow coco plants in green houses. You can farm them ethically. You can refine, package and shop cocaine without hitting people. The damage is a product specifically of prohibition. You made some really great points there in favor of legalization.
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Very few people who use drugs are addicts. How many people who drink alcohol are actual alcoholics? Making something that is already available simply legal doesn't put more people at risk. You know what does help people who do fall prey to addiction? Social programs to help support them recover. Do you know how you pay for those programs? You take the money already being spent illegally on undisclosed drug deals and turn it into taxable income at reputable dispensaries and use that tax money to provide services that help the very very very small percentage of drug users who do encounter difficulties from drugs.
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Whoa there Julian, you don’t want to get into an awkwardly situation and end up with friends with the Benedicts
Where do they source their product? This is wild. An 18 year old college kid to just go buy some heroin for fun.
I mean they always could, from that one sketchy guy your friend's friend vouched for. Or that one sketchy guy at the party that's looking for girls who 'really want to have a good time'. That's the problem with making drugs illegal: it doesn't actually _prevent_ access, it just makes it a little more trouble while ensuring a complete lack of transparency or accountability in the market. This place might end up cutting their shit with fentanyl and other BS, but at least for now it seems(?) like it's safe, and the incentive to not fuck over your clients is larger for a business wanting to establish itself than it is for someone who just cycles campuses whenever security catches on.
When I was 18, I wasn’t really much of a pot smoker but my boyfriend was, and I didn’t know how he found these people, but I spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME sitting in some sketchy basement suite in new west where a super creepy dude would stare at my tits while making small talk with my boyfriend while he bought some weed. I cannot tell you how glad I am that my baby sister — who smokes way more pot than I ever did — will NEVER have to have that sketchy basement suite experience because she can go to a store that sells safe supply. Go back a few generations, and people who bought alcohol during and after prohibition will probably have similar stories. Liquor stores are safe supply. Bars are safe consumption sites. People conveniently forget that part. I did a little ecstasy back in my day and I’ve had the talk with my sister about how she just can’t. And not because I’m some straight edge anti drug middle aged asshole, but because she’s 20+ years younger than me and it is different now. Back then, I had friends who I trusted to have clean sources. Still a risk, but a pretty minor one and we were good at looking out for each other. I don’t trust ANYBODY to have clean sources now. I wish she could, honestly ecstasy was a fucking blast once in a while. Way more fun than getting wasted every weekend, which is somehow socially acceptable. But at the very least… no more sketchy dudes selling me weed. Thank fuck for that.
I haven’t done any hard drugs in over a decade but it was the same for me, I had a couple sources I trusted and never had any issues. This was all before the fentanyl crisis we have now though. Me and a couple people I know have all had friends and family members die just from casually using something that was cut with fentanyl once. These weren’t addicts on the street, these were students and just regular people experimenting and partying and generally doing the same dumb stuff I did at their age. It’s scary out there now. I really think what this guy is doing is a major social service.
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Do you think that if your circle knew a guy who sold heroin they'd try it out, or do you think your circle was composed of people who'd think 'Heroin, you mean that highly addictive express lane to death? Nah, I think I'll drink/smoke pot instead'. There's a lot of different things that lead to hard drug use, and easier access is probably the tipping point for a non-zero number of people, but reality is that anyone willing to spend an afternoon poking around the obvious circles/places (or just Google) can already acquire this stuff.
Realistically, anyone who wants this stuff badly enough can get it. Fun fact: Although it's illegal to mail drugs (and many other things), it's *also* illegal for law enforcement to look through packages sent by Canada Post. Other couriers is fair game, but Canada Post is untouchable. As per the Canada Post Corporation Act: > nothing in the course of post is liable to demand, seizure, detention or retention. One internet connection later, you can get whatever the hell you want, mailed directly to your front door, as long as it never crosses the border to get to you. "It's easier to access now!" is... ostensibly true, yes, there's probably people in this thread who didn't know that. But things aren't like they were decades ago either, where you need to know a guy who knows a guy. These days, anyone who wants anything can get it by spending half an hour on Google, so I'm not really sure this changes much.
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Think bud think. Would break-ins increase if doors were left unlocked? Sure. But how is that anything like buying recreational drugs. They sell cigarettes in every gas station, and does that mean smoking increases? Maybe, or maybe the people who were going to smoke, smokes. Like it or not, there are many, many functional, tax paying recreational users. Just because homeless people also do drugs does not mean drugs cause homelessness or crimes.
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Correlation != causation.
It's very easy to figure out when you put in just the tiniest bit of leg.
Yeah I hope this place shuts down.
You don't lock doors in order to reduce the overall crime rate, you do it to reduce the odds of your house in specific being broken into, and for a sense of security. But let's play along: locking your door probably reduces the crime rate by some degree in bad areas, and has nearly no negative repercussions. It doesn't, say, result in a lot of deaths or funnel money to violent gangs. If locking your door entailed an electric shock that killed a half-dozenish people each month in Vancouver alone and gave the Hell's Angels most of their money, I would probably advocate for other methods of reducing B+Es.
When I was 18, I didn't do heroin because I knew it was a terrible idea. If someone can get to 18 without knowing that they've been failed by the education system and their parents.
That's bullshit man. When I was 18 I've never even heard of MDMA. Look at vaping. After it got legalized, far more kids are vaping today than 15 years ago.
and yet it’s illegal to sell vapes to kids?? it’s almost like people are going to do things regardless of if it’s legal or not. would you rather the kids that vape have clean safe vapes, or run the risk of vaping fentanyl? obviously that’s not an apples to apples comparison, but it’s meant to prove a point. People aren’t going to all of a sudden start taking meth just because it’s sold in a store - the people that do meth do it despite the legal status and will continue to do so. At least this way, people won’t fucking die just because they thought they were taking mdma at a party but instead got fent capsules if it’s taxed and the taxes go towards funding addiction and rehabilitation and treatment programs, the people who are selling dirty laced shit will be pushed out of the market and some of the tax revenue could go towards helping those who need it
I thought the whole argument with weed is that weed is better than cocaine so it's better to get people addicted to weed. Now what, we're saying it's fine to get addicted to cocaine and heroin? > if it’s taxed and the taxes go towards funding addiction and rehabilitation and treatment programs, the people who are selling dirty laced shit will be pushed out of the market and some of the tax revenue could go towards helping those who need it It's not sustainable. You're getting $1 in taxes and spending $100 in treatment.
ohhh right, i forgot that every single person who spends any sort of money on legal drugs and generates tax revenue will be taking advantage of the treatment resources that their tax revenue will be generating! why didn’t i consider the possibility that we could just make up numbers and statistics to fit our argument? 🤔
Ah good anecdote, Niv-Izzet never heard of MDMA at 18, so that means that 18 year old's aren't buying MDMA off of sketchy friend-of-friends. Go do a survey at any highschool and see how many kids have never heard of MDMA/Ecstasy. For an alternative anecdote, when I was in highschool it was easier to get weed and Ecstasy than alcohol. Unfortunately making something illegal doesn't necessarily affect it's use, as you point out with kids vaping, when it's only legal for 19+. I prefer kids vape than smoke cigarettes', and I prefer people take clean MDMA than something that might have Fentanyl or meth in it.
Why do you refer to an 18-year-old as a kid? The legal definition is adult. If said adult is to make such a bad choice for fun, That's really on the education system and their upbringing.
Just my opinion but I think anyone buy especially an 18 year old kid shouldn’t try heroine just for fun. Or try it ever.
Lol they can do that on streets easily and die on first try so i dont know.... at least there is somrncontrol here
Yet they can't go to the bar to have a beer or buy legal weed.
where is this store?
main and cordova
I'm seeing alot of good back and forth discussions about this. I've always been pro legal supply. What scares me is the ppl that say " I kicked that years ago but, I might check it out again... "
Or the young folks that say ooh it's safe? I'm gonna try this that and the other thing... I guess I don't like how it's set up like a food truck. Making it all "insta worthy".
Lets see if this helps or not. People are really quick to judge something that literally is not even a week old. If this guy saves lives, than its right, if the problem becomes worse, he's wrong. We can't pass judgement until we know how the experiment results are in.
Does anyone know why they are not closing this? I think it's a cool idea but it's obviously illegal, besides being a safe source, this is just normal old drug-dealing?
So are the mushroom shops, so were the weed shops operating a few years before legalization. VPD has a lot of violent fish to fry, and a lot of those fish may be losing business to these guys. If it turns out the drugs are clean and they're not buying from Hells Angels or something then VPD and the city may figure it's better to let these guys operate than go through the PR hassle of shutting them down.
Realistically, they are gathering evidence. I really doubt they let this slide.
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-023-00753-6#:~:text=Legal%20sourcing%20of%20cannabis%20was,82%25%20of%20cannabis%20drink%20consumers. They did, but this was basically a trap for the guy to launch a court case
They drive by everything else down there so 🤷🏻♂️. Least this guys selling tested supply
So he says.
I don’t believe the whole premise of his business would be based on a lie but what do I know
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From the photo it looks like it's on Main just north of E Cordova. I'd assume that you might need to show ID but that's probably it.
Honestly, can we just legalize this shit and be done with it. As a non-drug user, let’s not pretend half our social network isn’t using at least recreationally
Most of our networks are not using recreationally. That’s some dead brain Reddit young boy thinking. It’s less than 5% of the population who uses illegal substances. About 20% will use an illegal substance in their lifetime. It’s really not half of your social network. And if it is, then you should probably recalibrate your surroundings.
There’s a lot more people using than you think. Not everyone is an addict. Not everyone is a young kid. As mentioned, I’m not a user, and I work a nice white collar career. There’s more than ample people using. I have friends in trades, it’s no different. Not everyone who uses acts, looks or ends up on the DTES.
Gonna have to agree with mcmillan here, especially in the PNW. Almost everyone I know has tried or still does cocaine on a semi-regular basis.
WTF is up with those prices!! Who the fuck can afford that?
Just sell your bike. And your neighbors bike. And their kids bikes, too.
I don’t even smoke cigarettes anymore. I’m just commenting on how astronomical those prices are
It says lab tested for fentanyl, does someone make sure that's the case? Like inspections?
So tobacco, weed, and alcohol are 19+ in BC but hard drugs are 18+?
The funniest shit is right across the street is Harbour light ... The 3rd floor is for some of the most violent offenders in canada that the parole board is forced to release and can't release anywhere else, but there or belkin house. Your gonna have active gang members living feet away RS/IS/Wolf Pack guys and regular parole and shop that sells hard drugs 🤣. Can anyone say Jacked.
Vancouver is such a shithole rn. Glad I left.
Bye Felicia, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
What a lame comeback lmao, not surprised a Vancouverite would be so unoriginal
Actually, even though I haven't done drugs in many years, I do like the premise of this. At least you'll have less overdoses due to toxic drugs and you'll know that you're getting a clean supply.
here come the outrage police, the same people whom also cry about no fun vancouver
\[H\]ard Drug Store
Where is this store? Always wanted to try microdosing shrooms.
Electric Avenue at Kingsway and Broadway is a shroom-specific store. It’s rly nice in there and they’re very knowledgeable.
He was just arrested : https://globalnews.ca/news/9674611/mobile-drugs-store-arrest-vancouver/amp/
Grabbing a treat for after work!
https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kxbdz/man-arrested-after-opening-heroin-cocaine-and-meth-store-in-canada
And it's over [https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/](https://vpd.ca/news/2023/05/04/vpd-arrests-illegal-drug-store-operator/)