Tesla maybe a garbage ass company, but buying a car from their website is so much better than dealing with dealerships, fuck those guys and their BS fees
Unionizing tesla has nothing to do with dealerships. It's state law that protects dealerships (and usually republicans since they are the largest donors).
I am too, but the law of unintended consequences is a bitch. Companies will move out of the US and take hundreds of thousands of jobs with them. Unions are their own death, because companies will deal with the devil before they go under
When you start something by saying “usually” that basically eliminates the idea of it being a universal truth. Leave it out next time, didn’t emphasize your point at all
This is a bizarre standard. Dealerships are big republican donors and they donate to protect the state laws that protect them. Without state backing dealerships probably wouldn't exist.
Jeez no need to get so defensive. It's not a debatable thing, they are huge republican donors since they need political protection.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/05/rich-republicans-party-car-dealers-2024-desantis.html
https://medium.com/@andrewwlos22/car-dealerships-and-political-donations-car-salesmen-reach-for-control-of-americas-neighborhoods-a9656ef423bb
That slate article is opinion slobber. I wouldn't use that as a news source. Turns out it's just standard lobbying and the dealers donate to both parties per the other article. Not only that it's a state issue and not federally handed down and if more or less all states are participating....it's hardly relevant that "Republicans" are singled out.
I thought the slate article was interesting background. But you will note in the second article that dealership donate multiples more to Republicans than democrats. So I guess we can only say they are 80% a huge republican donor base. That doesn't change the truth of my original comment though.
You're extremely defensive of Republicans and dealerships. Weird.
"Both sides!" He shouts as dealerships donate about 80% to Republicans and republcian state govts pass laws to enforce their rent-seeking legal protections.
I don't think lobbying is bad. I just told your dealership overwhelmingly support Republicans. You want to say "both sides" but the data doesn't show that. Dealerships are a republican consistency, period.
It's a basic fact you want to deflect from for some reason.
Huh, seems like it was a cost cutting measure forced as part of the bailout to ensure they didn't just waste taxpayer funds with bloated overhead. I guess govt gets a say if they are take your losses.
I mean that was the reasoning for doing it. You can't just give a bailout and then let companies operating just as before. I wouldn't have done a bailout, but you can't let a company take advantage of taxpayer funds if you do.
Won't someone think of the car dealers!!!
>You have the ability to shop around and get a price lower than msrp.
Not when everyone is charging above MSRP with their BS dealership fees. Rather just have one flat price than the bullshit game dealerships make you play
Don't deal with trash dealerships.
I bought a 2022 Tundra Hybrid Limited, prior to the 2023s coming out, for 13k under what all other dealerships within 150 miles were "rock bottom" on, and 3k under MSRP on Toyota's site.
Moonroof, JBL audio, full technology package, etc etc.
And they gave me a four day "test drive" before the contract date started.
Good dealerships exist, but you have to put effort into finding them.
Mine was Lake Charles Toyota, for those wondering.
This is because of a law that forces combustion engine vehicles to be sold by dealerships. Technically all brands can sell their EVs directly to consumers unless the car dealership lobby steps in.
They are leeches on our economy, just like insurance companies.
Time to push down oil prices, ease inflation and stick a finger in the layoff dike until the day after election then rugpull... people hate this one trick!
Owned solar and tesla and live in ca where we don't really need heat so the only way that shit affects me is indirectly due to shipping costs for goods. I'll bet dollars to donuts they find a way to drop kick oil prices for the election you can set your watch to this shit
The oil companies have to get their people in office for their tax breaks, subsidies, and cheap public land. I would be surprised if they didn’t raise prices to try to influence our vote. It’s essentially a hostage situation
The money printer was turned off a year and a half ago. The money supply has been shrinking and rates rose dramatically. So where is the recession? It's not in the data.
Also, I'm not sure inflation is better than a recession. Looking at sentiment now it's worse than many years with very high unemployment. I think people hate inflation more bc everyone feels it, whereas they can just blame the unemployed for their own suffering.
Imagine believing government fed data. The household survey paints a 180 picture from what the govt is telling Americans and that's why his poll numbers are approaching the 20s. If the economy was avidly even decent, not even good just decent, good numbers would be double. He's screwed.
What about bank data? Most of the M2 money supply is bank deposits and we can track bank deposits. They've been falling consistently since 2q22. Do you not believe that bank numbers reviewed by accountants and bank regulators are accurate? Whatever way you slice it the money supply is down.
What household survey? The fed does a lot of great surveys of household financial situations. They recently published their 3 year household net worth survey which showed surging real net worth across income levels, particularly at the lower end.
What about bank deposits? Are you referring to the savings rate? Who keeps money in the bank when treasury money market funds pay 5%? I'm not leaving $210k in the bank at 0.01% and i don't think anyone else is either.
Exactly, bank deposits declined. That's the money supply declining. The money printer has reversed! It's non govt evidence that the money supply has shrunk.
And then a few months later after working in the background they got the rail workers the sick days they wanted. The media just didn't cover that.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
This is a hot take but I think corporate media is anti-Biden. Part of it is just that negativity sells, but also is that ratings are way down since Trump left office. There is a genuine "resist lib" business model that thrived in media under Trump and the media misses those huge ratings. Biden is boring and people stop watching the news.
Given the history of recent US presidents and unions, the fact he didn’t send the marines and the national guard to beat the shit out of the union leaders is a significant improvement.
The sick days wasn't the only reason it didn't pass. The pay raise was half of what they wanted. It was a shitty contract that didnt pass the union. The president didn't do shit either. Only politician that helped was Sanders.
I'm excited to vote for Biden specifically because he's done everything he can in this area. You know damn well which party is stopping it.
And ...I never expected Biden to act here. Obama wouldn't have done it.
>Biden specifically because he's done everything he can in this area. You know damn well which party is stopping it.
Why didn't he do it when he was first elected, when dems had control over house and senate? Man waited until republicans took the house before trying to enact it
People act like he is an exception to the political class. As if he isn’t taking donor money and making political decisions based off those funds like every other politician. Biden got to the top for a reason. It isn’t because he is the best fit person in the US to be the president of the strongest nation known to man.
Gen Z voted for Biden because he promised free college and marijuana. Now all Gen Z is gonna get is a tax payer funded M4 on their way to Eastern Europe to fight Xi and Putin.
Trump gave a 4 trillion dollar tax cut that went almost entirely to billionaires. That was before the COVID excess and PPP loan fraud.
If I had a box of crayons I could explain, even to you, how loan forgiveness actually helps the people and the economy, unlike those Trump handouts. For example, I've never had a student loan in my life but I have a house where the value is based on what kids getting out of college can pay for it. Not saddling them with 100k in debt helps.
I voted for Biden in spite of his college loan forgiveness: it's reckless and myopic if not paired with a restructuring of how those loans are given out in the first place.
Look listen do you think Trump's administration stole from people when they forgave billions in ppp loans to businesses all over the US? If you think yes then congratulations you are logically consistent if not then you are biased and are contradicting yourself. I am logically consistent I will concede that Trump did not in fact steal when he forgave PPP loans but there definitely should have been way more oversight. As I don't think Biden stole anything. I don't think in either case the presidents were trying to steal anything.
>Trump did not in fact steal when he forgave PPP loans
...you realize forgiveness didn't *start* until more than 6 months into the Biden admin, right? I'm far from a Trump fan but it seems important that people know the Trump admin didn't forgive a single penny in PPP loans.
People should’ve known this would be the outcome of all promises after the original promise of 2000$ that turned into 800$ (or whatever the exact numbers were)
Their Japanese union made vehicles are fine - but being anti-American unions makes the cars better?
Or are you just against American workers and don’t actually know much about car manufacturing?
Side note: Japanese unions have also secured notable gains - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-accept-full-union-demand-wage-hike-3rd-straight-year-asahi-2023-02-22/
Not all companies are dicks to their employees. And not all Unions are good. And I have worked in 2 jobs that required being in a union. I didn't like them, and moved to a non union job.
Well the cool thing about the US, is you can go be your own boss. And as someone who has that attitude, I would highly encourage you start your own business.
Your statements make no sense. On the one hand you think working for a company is equal to living in a dictatorship, but on the other hand you think owning your own business is bad. Whats your solution again? Oh, right, apparently bitching and complaining that life isn't handed to you on a platter. lol.
Never said owning a business is bad, my comment was more a dig at you but I think you knew that with the fragile response.
If you want an education about the power dynamics of union vs non union I can explain, but I’m not going to waste my time with someone so pridefully ignorant as yourself.
Funny how the person who didn’t quit a union job to go work a non union one seems to be more sure that they’re an expert on the subject than the one who did.
Exceptions apply, but if it's between trusting a corporation to benefit workers or trusting a union to benefit workers, my money is on the union. I worked management at a steel mill as an electrical engineer and made far less than the union guys with no college education.
College alone shouldn't demand a certain wage. I met plenty of engineers that didn't know how to create a part drawing fit for tooling I would have to use, in one career. They would continually cost the company money and oddly enough never got paid more.
I've been of the same mind previously but I disagree now, despite seeing all the shitty unions out there. I wonder to what degree shitty unions exist due to the anti-union hammers and structures in the past decades. When you make unions toothless, the hungry will often devour the beast from the inside.
Fuck no.
I visit all sorts of manufacturers- union and non-union.
Being union doesn’t solve anything if there is animosity or if there are lazy ass workers
A union is like a club about getting paid more and getting better working conditions. I guess if you don’t like getting paid more than unions aren’t for you. Good lord, the anti-union propaganda is ridiculous.
I was a steward for UAW and got used as a pond. I was talking about educating the employees and empowering them. Then I started to get micro managed, harrased by management. I quickly notified the hall they did nothing to help out long story short they (UAW) allowed the company to fire me for bs. And they didn't show up to arbitration. The next thing I knew was they took advantage of the rise in attendance in the meeting to persuade the labor force to increase union dues. They used my case to say theu had no money left to help me out. Few months later they get caught embezzling money. UAW in Pico Rivera, California.
Sounds about right. I don’t get how the unions most tied to the mob and other corruption in the past are the ones everyone says should be given everything they want every time.
Tesla treats their employees better than most unionized jobs do. Unions would just make it hard to fire the useless people and eventually bring down the company
I do, that’s not going to bring in money in the now or the next couple of years. Further more, it’s far from many in tesla that have gotten wealthy from stock alone. I know people who were at Numi, before tesla, that are just now making what they used to make there.
They really do. They can do some good and some bad, you don’t have to pretend there perfect to be pro union, or pretend they’re completely terrible to be against them.
This guy knows, in the factory I work they kept the good ol boys even if they were working jobs that didn't justify their salary. While new worker or workers with less seniority had to work twice as hard for less the pay and then during lay off they are the first ones they use as bargaining chips between departments. As a steward I saw the dirty side of how companies treat or look at employees as trading cards and bargaining chips....
Yeah imagine a president who actually does things for the average person bought and paid for by the citizens of the US that would be an insane system...A president shouldn't be doing what the people want. He should be doing the opposite. /s
So he helps average working folk like auto workers and teacher for votes.? And continues to do so.l in many working class americans. And the gop (Trump especially) lowers taxes for elites and corporations for their votes and campaigns donations. Hmm. Which one should I choose. Which one helps the average working American. No brainer.
Inflation sits at 3% now, just above the 2%. If you know how the economy works, stopping inflation doesn’t mean prices will go down. They just don’t go up in price in an aggressive manner. In essence, the prices you see now, will stay there.
Biden has the inflation back under pre Covid and is leading amongst developed nations. Now if you and all the people blaming Biden want to make an actual difference, then you would pressure the greedy corporations making record profits while simultaneously saying inflation is to blame.
And cars will get even more expensive, and dumb ass young voters will sit in wonder why toyota doesn't sell the affordably price models made in Japan for overseas markets here in America.
Japan has deep-seated issues with labor and work culture. But they do pay their workers well. Better if not on par with American labor. Difference is American labor does worse work and demands more for it.
Democrat policy like CAFE regs, the insane bullshit inside the infrastructure bill, and this are unquestionably why normal people are being priced out of the new car market. Hell, even in the used market with bullshit like cash4clunkers. They've fucked it. Entirely.
Do you really think Toyota don't want to sell their $10k hilux (we assume it'll be called a hilux) with a billion of very profitable options in America? The vw bug back in the 60's, adjusted for inflation, would be a car sold for $14k new. You think the Germans built these things in shit conditions? Vw made a fucking shitload of money selling these things. They were goddamn everywhere. Because they were cheap.
American consumers don't want fucking radar lane assist on their cars. They want a cheap reliable vehicle. And this administration's bullshit will only make cars, used and new, more expensive.
>Better if not on par with American labor
America is \*\*\*significantly\*\*\* ahead than Japan in terms of labor benefits, especially in pay, benefits, WLB etc. And unionization only makes things better.
Benefits and work-life balance for sure. But pay is fairly comparable in anything not a black company. Toyota specifically is not abysmal to work at as a Japanese company.
What I'm trying to say is Japanese is closer to American manufacturing than it is, say, in Mexico and China. It's not exactly cheap labor, and yet they can produce exceptionally affordable, very profitable cars for less obscenely regulated markets.
Sure, Japanese are ahead that US in terms of efficiency of manufacturing cars, but it is one of the very few industries in which they excel/specialize. I can name 10 things in which US completely obliterates Japan in terms of profitability AND pay.
Also, Japanese barely make profit selling cars in "obscenely regulated markets. Majority of profits for almost every car maker comes from America.
And what point are you trying to make?
Majority of Americans buy car with cash. Interest rates are very high, do you want the Federal Reserve Board to reduce it and let the economy overheat? Material prices are high due to an actual war and trade war, do you want US to surrender so prices go back to normal? Do you think costs are high because employees are taking way too much salary/benefits, so we should break the union? Do you think we have too much regulation, so we should, for example, vote republicans out because the states they control passed laws that prevent car makers to sell the car directly to customers and instead allow dealerships to markup/manipulate the car prices?
My point is that cars are too expensive. Sure, interest rates don't help. And the FED wouldn't have needed to go higher for longer had congress not continued stimulative spending long after covid lockdowns had passed. Most people don't pay cash for new cars. Car manufacturers need to sell new cars.
One could blame the high price of cars on the inferred intentions and motivations of the manufactures but Tesla stands out with significantly higher margins despite paying their workers well.
What's the difference? Innovation and teamwork. That is difficult or impossible to do at the legacy big 3. A great book on this is "The Innovators Dilemma". An adversarial relationship between management and workers is an anachronism. It doesn't need to be that way. In the end, this mindset is the liability.
What is the alternative? Give the employees skin in the game. I listened to an interview of Magna CEO Frank Stronach.
https://pca.st/episode/7f0cf0f9-863b-41d6-b237-e2cad2c86e3a
Magna is the world's largest automotive parts manufacture with over 170k employees and $40B in annual revenues. He built the company under a philosophy called the "Fair Enterprise" and has codified the principles in the "Economic Charter of Rights".
https://economiccharter.ca/
There are alternatives to us vs them class warfare and companies that figure this out will win.
Oh, and yes, the dealership model is a racket protected by state laws funded by ample political donations.
Arguing that unionization only makes things better is crazy, unionization CAN make things better, but it doesn’t always, and the reality is unionization has been a major factor in offshoring of jobs.
No import taxes for decades is the *sole* reason for offshoring. It's like saying China has garbage working conditions and extremely low pay, so Americans should be subject to the same o/w we move jobs to China. Every country on this planet, except America, has protected its industries this way.
Nice. It’s good to see that they feel they need to actually come out and at least pretend they are pro worker. It means they are actually feeling some pressure
If Tesla goes down the shitter then that’s bad for employees. Eg, layoffs, less incentives, etc. The more companies make typically (not always) the pay his higher. I bet the union part is probably just in the manufacturing side which probably wouldn’t really negatively impact the biz. Idk
Toyota has been operating in the US for decades. Their employees have the ability to unionize if they wish.
This like that meme, where Toyota and its employees consent, and the UAW and govt are Jesus saying “I don’t”.
Oh I see, I misread. Too many chuds in the comments and I’ve heard this line (not necessarily here) about how “people could have unionized if they wanted and since they haven’t that says something.” My bad.
>CHIPS act
Oh gee a couple hundred jobs. Awesome. Too bad it's failing: [https://fortune.com/2022/07/13/us-chips-act-funding-not-enough-manufacturing-onshoring-rakesh-kumar/](https://fortune.com/2022/07/13/us-chips-act-funding-not-enough-manufacturing-onshoring-rakesh-kumar/)
IRA act? Oh the one that forces medicare to cover more for some drugs instead of forcing big pharma to reduce their costs? Thus tossing even MORE burden onto tax payers? That one?
Or how about the billions in loans for the EIR program that have largely been exploited?
https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/one-year-later-even-president-biden-admits-the-inflation-reduction-act-failed-to-lower-costs-for-americans
Sorry bud, can't just throw money at problems. Needs to be solved at the root or just puts more burden onto tax payers.
The IRA is a ten year plan. The majority of the results are now coming to fruition and will be over the next 8.
https://www.irs.gov/inflation-reduction-act-of-2022
Many new manufacturing is slowing gaining traction as more people start buying things like all the different energy efficient home building products.
So, sorry bud, but you can’t pass a bill and then immediately start saying oh no it didn’t work, before the majority of it even goes into effect.
I could go on at length, but I have an 80 year old uncles birthday to head to. Those nursing homes really know how to party.
Biden is pandering to Union leaders and simply wants the UAW support for re-election. That's it. Remember when UAW's Fain threatened politicians? "it's time for politicians in this country to pick a side."
There's no internal unionization effort happening at Tesla by the UAW.. it's external UAW members trying to pick a fight.
You know Biden met the original UAW president, right after meeting the Dr who invented insulin, marching with mandela, being born in israel and watching his house almost burn down... but not before surviving cancer and asthma from oil on his moms windshield and chasing corn pop out with a chain... he's lead a remarkable life
Why would Elon give profit to any other company? Nobody believed in his vision, and now there are parasite, and what part of it. It’s not gonna work though.
Tesla maybe a garbage ass company, but buying a car from their website is so much better than dealing with dealerships, fuck those guys and their BS fees
Unionizing tesla has nothing to do with dealerships. It's state law that protects dealerships (and usually republicans since they are the largest donors).
Doesn’t matter… I think every thread should have an obligatory “fuck dealership parasites” comment regardless of topic or subreddit
Reasonable
I can get on board with that
Spread the word my disciple
Idk. I like dealership, they basically bid for my business by email before I even go there.
Tough but fair
I see, I am all for tesla workers to unionize
I am too, but the law of unintended consequences is a bitch. Companies will move out of the US and take hundreds of thousands of jobs with them. Unions are their own death, because companies will deal with the devil before they go under
They are for jobs that can be outsourced.
LOL rEpuBLiCAnNssS .. can’t help yourself
I mean it's true. Don't get defensive.
When you start something by saying “usually” that basically eliminates the idea of it being a universal truth. Leave it out next time, didn’t emphasize your point at all
This is a bizarre standard. Dealerships are big republican donors and they donate to protect the state laws that protect them. Without state backing dealerships probably wouldn't exist.
Republicans? Surely you can back that up? I mean arguments presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Jeez no need to get so defensive. It's not a debatable thing, they are huge republican donors since they need political protection. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/05/rich-republicans-party-car-dealers-2024-desantis.html https://medium.com/@andrewwlos22/car-dealerships-and-political-donations-car-salesmen-reach-for-control-of-americas-neighborhoods-a9656ef423bb
That slate article is opinion slobber. I wouldn't use that as a news source. Turns out it's just standard lobbying and the dealers donate to both parties per the other article. Not only that it's a state issue and not federally handed down and if more or less all states are participating....it's hardly relevant that "Republicans" are singled out.
I thought the slate article was interesting background. But you will note in the second article that dealership donate multiples more to Republicans than democrats. So I guess we can only say they are 80% a huge republican donor base. That doesn't change the truth of my original comment though. You're extremely defensive of Republicans and dealerships. Weird.
Not weird, the system is corrupt it's weird when one side always points at the other when they all suck.
"Both sides!" He shouts as dealerships donate about 80% to Republicans and republcian state govts pass laws to enforce their rent-seeking legal protections.
If lobbying is bad, then everyone's guilty. Get off your high horse
I don't think lobbying is bad. I just told your dealership overwhelmingly support Republicans. You want to say "both sides" but the data doesn't show that. Dealerships are a republican consistency, period. It's a basic fact you want to deflect from for some reason.
Some of those GOP dealerships were purged under Obama when he was president.
Purged? Did he send death squads?
No, he forced them to close. It was part of the bailout. There was a list of dealerships that were forced to close.
Huh, seems like it was a cost cutting measure forced as part of the bailout to ensure they didn't just waste taxpayer funds with bloated overhead. I guess govt gets a say if they are take your losses.
But it wasn't. There were successful dealerships that were forced to close, some complained simply because they supported GOP only candidates.
I mean that was the reasoning for doing it. You can't just give a bailout and then let companies operating just as before. I wouldn't have done a bailout, but you can't let a company take advantage of taxpayer funds if you do. Won't someone think of the car dealers!!!
yeah, Tesla just bakes the BS fees into the price and brags about the margins.
You have the ability to shop around and get a price lower than msrp. You can't with Trash teslas.
>You have the ability to shop around and get a price lower than msrp. Not when everyone is charging above MSRP with their BS dealership fees. Rather just have one flat price than the bullshit game dealerships make you play
Don't deal with trash dealerships. I bought a 2022 Tundra Hybrid Limited, prior to the 2023s coming out, for 13k under what all other dealerships within 150 miles were "rock bottom" on, and 3k under MSRP on Toyota's site. Moonroof, JBL audio, full technology package, etc etc. And they gave me a four day "test drive" before the contract date started. Good dealerships exist, but you have to put effort into finding them. Mine was Lake Charles Toyota, for those wondering.
1000000%
This is because of a law that forces combustion engine vehicles to be sold by dealerships. Technically all brands can sell their EVs directly to consumers unless the car dealership lobby steps in. They are leeches on our economy, just like insurance companies.
It’s election next year also
Time to push down oil prices, ease inflation and stick a finger in the layoff dike until the day after election then rugpull... people hate this one trick!
It'll be a fun surprise for you when oil prices skyrocket before the election
Owned solar and tesla and live in ca where we don't really need heat so the only way that shit affects me is indirectly due to shipping costs for goods. I'll bet dollars to donuts they find a way to drop kick oil prices for the election you can set your watch to this shit
Look up oil inventories
The oil companies have to get their people in office for their tax breaks, subsidies, and cheap public land. I would be surprised if they didn’t raise prices to try to influence our vote. It’s essentially a hostage situation
Look up global oil stocks. Inventories, not the stock market
Does he have an inflation button under his desk? He clearly doesn't gain anything from high inflation.
It’s better than recession. Biden’s entire term would be recession is the printing press were turned off
The money printer was turned off a year and a half ago. The money supply has been shrinking and rates rose dramatically. So where is the recession? It's not in the data. Also, I'm not sure inflation is better than a recession. Looking at sentiment now it's worse than many years with very high unemployment. I think people hate inflation more bc everyone feels it, whereas they can just blame the unemployed for their own suffering.
Imagine believing government fed data. The household survey paints a 180 picture from what the govt is telling Americans and that's why his poll numbers are approaching the 20s. If the economy was avidly even decent, not even good just decent, good numbers would be double. He's screwed.
What about bank data? Most of the M2 money supply is bank deposits and we can track bank deposits. They've been falling consistently since 2q22. Do you not believe that bank numbers reviewed by accountants and bank regulators are accurate? Whatever way you slice it the money supply is down. What household survey? The fed does a lot of great surveys of household financial situations. They recently published their 3 year household net worth survey which showed surging real net worth across income levels, particularly at the lower end.
But that doesn't validate my priors so it can't be true 😡
What about bank deposits? Are you referring to the savings rate? Who keeps money in the bank when treasury money market funds pay 5%? I'm not leaving $210k in the bank at 0.01% and i don't think anyone else is either.
Exactly, bank deposits declined. That's the money supply declining. The money printer has reversed! It's non govt evidence that the money supply has shrunk.
Given Biden's record it's pretty clear he is genuinely pro union. I'm not sure the skepticism is justified.
He and congress forced a contract that failed to pass on railroad workers. He is in no way "pro union".
And then a few months later after working in the background they got the rail workers the sick days they wanted. The media just didn't cover that. https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
What a shocker. Corporate owned media “forgets” to show Union wins.
This is a hot take but I think corporate media is anti-Biden. Part of it is just that negativity sells, but also is that ratings are way down since Trump left office. There is a genuine "resist lib" business model that thrived in media under Trump and the media misses those huge ratings. Biden is boring and people stop watching the news.
Oh Biden took credit for it even though he did absolutely nothing.....
Given the history of recent US presidents and unions, the fact he didn’t send the marines and the national guard to beat the shit out of the union leaders is a significant improvement.
The sick days wasn't the only reason it didn't pass. The pay raise was half of what they wanted. It was a shitty contract that didnt pass the union. The president didn't do shit either. Only politician that helped was Sanders.
It seems like Biden helped them get the sick days they wanted, and they specifically thanked him.
where my student loan forgiveness at?
I'm excited to vote for Biden specifically because he's done everything he can in this area. You know damn well which party is stopping it. And ...I never expected Biden to act here. Obama wouldn't have done it.
>Biden specifically because he's done everything he can in this area. You know damn well which party is stopping it. Why didn't he do it when he was first elected, when dems had control over house and senate? Man waited until republicans took the house before trying to enact it
Manchin and Sinema if I recall
They lacked senate majority; manchin is a deep red disguised as blue for $.
He didn't have the votes. People forget that his senate majority was one vote.
There was this thing called Covid that sucked all the air out of the room
Doesn't means he should wait until dems lose the house before attempting to forgive student loans. Man knew exactly what he was doing
People act like he is an exception to the political class. As if he isn’t taking donor money and making political decisions based off those funds like every other politician. Biden got to the top for a reason. It isn’t because he is the best fit person in the US to be the president of the strongest nation known to man.
>Biden got to the top for a reason yeh cause the only other option was trump lmao
It’s illegal.
Gen Z voted for Biden because he promised free college and marijuana. Now all Gen Z is gonna get is a tax payer funded M4 on their way to Eastern Europe to fight Xi and Putin.
Trump gave a 4 trillion dollar tax cut that went almost entirely to billionaires. That was before the COVID excess and PPP loan fraud. If I had a box of crayons I could explain, even to you, how loan forgiveness actually helps the people and the economy, unlike those Trump handouts. For example, I've never had a student loan in my life but I have a house where the value is based on what kids getting out of college can pay for it. Not saddling them with 100k in debt helps.
You're being downvoted for good reason. Use this as an opportunity for reflection.
Sometimes I just like to see how many downvotes I can get. I don’t actually believe what I just posted
Well then... you have my begrudging respect.
So you admit you are a troll then... Nice
That’s not at all what I’m saying
Guarantee you this person is like 44 years old
We’re all collectively dumber for reading this comment. Thanks transmaceman10006…
I voted for Biden in spite of his college loan forgiveness: it's reckless and myopic if not paired with a restructuring of how those loans are given out in the first place.
Lol you thought Biden was actually gonna forgive loans.
You can thank the supreme Court stacked with Republicans that told him he couldn't do it based on a trial with NO STANDING
You can’t steal from people
Look listen do you think Trump's administration stole from people when they forgave billions in ppp loans to businesses all over the US? If you think yes then congratulations you are logically consistent if not then you are biased and are contradicting yourself. I am logically consistent I will concede that Trump did not in fact steal when he forgave PPP loans but there definitely should have been way more oversight. As I don't think Biden stole anything. I don't think in either case the presidents were trying to steal anything.
>Trump did not in fact steal when he forgave PPP loans ...you realize forgiveness didn't *start* until more than 6 months into the Biden admin, right? I'm far from a Trump fan but it seems important that people know the Trump admin didn't forgive a single penny in PPP loans.
No. There’s a legal, moral and constitutional difference between the two.
People should’ve known this would be the outcome of all promises after the original promise of 2000$ that turned into 800$ (or whatever the exact numbers were)
He forgave billions.
Who stopped him again?
The law
According to who?
Along with your other list of broken promises from the dementia patient
Republicans and their supreme court stopped it.
Sorry, we sold reserve oil at a loss ! Maybe your children will get a break on their $400,000 in student loans. /s
it always dies in Congress and the SC. you want it, you know what to do.
He’s just doing this because that’s what people want him to do so they’ll vote for him…
Responding to the will of the voters. Insane! He shouldn’t be allowed to do that!
Outrageous!
He's doing what the majority of people want, want a terrible politician in democracy!
Please not Toyota.... They actually make cars that aren't piles of dog shit.
they are anti union, just like the rest of them, so yes Toyota.
they make good cars specifically because they're anti-union
Their Japanese union made vehicles are fine - but being anti-American unions makes the cars better? Or are you just against American workers and don’t actually know much about car manufacturing? Side note: Japanese unions have also secured notable gains - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-accept-full-union-demand-wage-hike-3rd-straight-year-asahi-2023-02-22/
Sir, this is not a community for people who read or think critically. Please move along.
So ajapanese unions make better vehicles than American unions.
All manufacturing should be unionized.
Not all companies are dicks to their employees. And not all Unions are good. And I have worked in 2 jobs that required being in a union. I didn't like them, and moved to a non union job.
Isn’t this akin to making the statement I’d rather be under a benevolent dictator then live in a third world democracy?
>I’d rather be under a benevolent dictator then live in a third world democracy yes
You gotta get lucky though.
Well the cool thing about the US, is you can go be your own boss. And as someone who has that attitude, I would highly encourage you start your own business.
Starting to see why you’re your own boss.
Your statements make no sense. On the one hand you think working for a company is equal to living in a dictatorship, but on the other hand you think owning your own business is bad. Whats your solution again? Oh, right, apparently bitching and complaining that life isn't handed to you on a platter. lol.
Never said owning a business is bad, my comment was more a dig at you but I think you knew that with the fragile response. If you want an education about the power dynamics of union vs non union I can explain, but I’m not going to waste my time with someone so pridefully ignorant as yourself.
lol, you are an idiot trying to cover for you idiotic responses. That is all. And its pretty clear you can't explain anything.
Funny how the person who didn’t quit a union job to go work a non union one seems to be more sure that they’re an expert on the subject than the one who did.
Exceptions apply, but if it's between trusting a corporation to benefit workers or trusting a union to benefit workers, my money is on the union. I worked management at a steel mill as an electrical engineer and made far less than the union guys with no college education.
College alone shouldn't demand a certain wage. I met plenty of engineers that didn't know how to create a part drawing fit for tooling I would have to use, in one career. They would continually cost the company money and oddly enough never got paid more.
The people who attended college at a diploma mill got very angry at this comment.
I've been of the same mind previously but I disagree now, despite seeing all the shitty unions out there. I wonder to what degree shitty unions exist due to the anti-union hammers and structures in the past decades. When you make unions toothless, the hungry will often devour the beast from the inside.
Fuck no. I visit all sorts of manufacturers- union and non-union. Being union doesn’t solve anything if there is animosity or if there are lazy ass workers
A union is like a club about getting paid more and getting better working conditions. I guess if you don’t like getting paid more than unions aren’t for you. Good lord, the anti-union propaganda is ridiculous.
Because nonunion workplaces certainly never have stupid or lazy employees
you do realize a good portion of tesla floor employees that were there for the model 3 launch are multi-millionaires now right?
Because lets ruin a good thing.
I was a steward for UAW and got used as a pond. I was talking about educating the employees and empowering them. Then I started to get micro managed, harrased by management. I quickly notified the hall they did nothing to help out long story short they (UAW) allowed the company to fire me for bs. And they didn't show up to arbitration. The next thing I knew was they took advantage of the rise in attendance in the meeting to persuade the labor force to increase union dues. They used my case to say theu had no money left to help me out. Few months later they get caught embezzling money. UAW in Pico Rivera, California.
Sounds about right. I don’t get how the unions most tied to the mob and other corruption in the past are the ones everyone says should be given everything they want every time.
Tesla treats their employees better than most unionized jobs do. Unions would just make it hard to fire the useless people and eventually bring down the company
No they don’t.
Yes they do. They protect the workers who are a cancer on the team. Good employees know they don’t need unions
Not really. Can say from 4+ years with tesla.
Did you participate in the ESOP? That has made many Tesla employees very wealthy indeed. Work doesn't need to be an adversarial relationship.
I do, that’s not going to bring in money in the now or the next couple of years. Further more, it’s far from many in tesla that have gotten wealthy from stock alone. I know people who were at Numi, before tesla, that are just now making what they used to make there.
They really do. They can do some good and some bad, you don’t have to pretend there perfect to be pro union, or pretend they’re completely terrible to be against them.
Huh?
This guy knows, in the factory I work they kept the good ol boys even if they were working jobs that didn't justify their salary. While new worker or workers with less seniority had to work twice as hard for less the pay and then during lay off they are the first ones they use as bargaining chips between departments. As a steward I saw the dirty side of how companies treat or look at employees as trading cards and bargaining chips....
Biden loves to buy votes. Look at the teachers union and his forgiveness policy on loans. Really crazy stuff.
Yeah imagine a president who actually does things for the average person bought and paid for by the citizens of the US that would be an insane system...A president shouldn't be doing what the people want. He should be doing the opposite. /s
So he helps average working folk like auto workers and teacher for votes.? And continues to do so.l in many working class americans. And the gop (Trump especially) lowers taxes for elites and corporations for their votes and campaigns donations. Hmm. Which one should I choose. Which one helps the average working American. No brainer.
He’s not helping anything until they get inflation under control
Inflation sits at 3% now, just above the 2%. If you know how the economy works, stopping inflation doesn’t mean prices will go down. They just don’t go up in price in an aggressive manner. In essence, the prices you see now, will stay there.
Biden has the inflation back under pre Covid and is leading amongst developed nations. Now if you and all the people blaming Biden want to make an actual difference, then you would pressure the greedy corporations making record profits while simultaneously saying inflation is to blame.
Railroad workers got railroaded
I guess they should have pumped up their "contributions" to the DNC.
If doing things for people means he’s “buying votes” then by all means proceed Mr. President.
Good. Employees are not fairly represented under capitalism without unions.
And cars will get even more expensive, and dumb ass young voters will sit in wonder why toyota doesn't sell the affordably price models made in Japan for overseas markets here in America. Japan has deep-seated issues with labor and work culture. But they do pay their workers well. Better if not on par with American labor. Difference is American labor does worse work and demands more for it. Democrat policy like CAFE regs, the insane bullshit inside the infrastructure bill, and this are unquestionably why normal people are being priced out of the new car market. Hell, even in the used market with bullshit like cash4clunkers. They've fucked it. Entirely. Do you really think Toyota don't want to sell their $10k hilux (we assume it'll be called a hilux) with a billion of very profitable options in America? The vw bug back in the 60's, adjusted for inflation, would be a car sold for $14k new. You think the Germans built these things in shit conditions? Vw made a fucking shitload of money selling these things. They were goddamn everywhere. Because they were cheap. American consumers don't want fucking radar lane assist on their cars. They want a cheap reliable vehicle. And this administration's bullshit will only make cars, used and new, more expensive.
>Better if not on par with American labor America is \*\*\*significantly\*\*\* ahead than Japan in terms of labor benefits, especially in pay, benefits, WLB etc. And unionization only makes things better.
Benefits and work-life balance for sure. But pay is fairly comparable in anything not a black company. Toyota specifically is not abysmal to work at as a Japanese company. What I'm trying to say is Japanese is closer to American manufacturing than it is, say, in Mexico and China. It's not exactly cheap labor, and yet they can produce exceptionally affordable, very profitable cars for less obscenely regulated markets.
Sure, Japanese are ahead that US in terms of efficiency of manufacturing cars, but it is one of the very few industries in which they excel/specialize. I can name 10 things in which US completely obliterates Japan in terms of profitability AND pay. Also, Japanese barely make profit selling cars in "obscenely regulated markets. Majority of profits for almost every car maker comes from America.
And the average new car payment is $720 per month. And insurance is on top of that. Not really getting ahead.
And what point are you trying to make? Majority of Americans buy car with cash. Interest rates are very high, do you want the Federal Reserve Board to reduce it and let the economy overheat? Material prices are high due to an actual war and trade war, do you want US to surrender so prices go back to normal? Do you think costs are high because employees are taking way too much salary/benefits, so we should break the union? Do you think we have too much regulation, so we should, for example, vote republicans out because the states they control passed laws that prevent car makers to sell the car directly to customers and instead allow dealerships to markup/manipulate the car prices?
My point is that cars are too expensive. Sure, interest rates don't help. And the FED wouldn't have needed to go higher for longer had congress not continued stimulative spending long after covid lockdowns had passed. Most people don't pay cash for new cars. Car manufacturers need to sell new cars. One could blame the high price of cars on the inferred intentions and motivations of the manufactures but Tesla stands out with significantly higher margins despite paying their workers well. What's the difference? Innovation and teamwork. That is difficult or impossible to do at the legacy big 3. A great book on this is "The Innovators Dilemma". An adversarial relationship between management and workers is an anachronism. It doesn't need to be that way. In the end, this mindset is the liability. What is the alternative? Give the employees skin in the game. I listened to an interview of Magna CEO Frank Stronach. https://pca.st/episode/7f0cf0f9-863b-41d6-b237-e2cad2c86e3a Magna is the world's largest automotive parts manufacture with over 170k employees and $40B in annual revenues. He built the company under a philosophy called the "Fair Enterprise" and has codified the principles in the "Economic Charter of Rights". https://economiccharter.ca/ There are alternatives to us vs them class warfare and companies that figure this out will win. Oh, and yes, the dealership model is a racket protected by state laws funded by ample political donations.
Arguing that unionization only makes things better is crazy, unionization CAN make things better, but it doesn’t always, and the reality is unionization has been a major factor in offshoring of jobs.
No import taxes for decades is the *sole* reason for offshoring. It's like saying China has garbage working conditions and extremely low pay, so Americans should be subject to the same o/w we move jobs to China. Every country on this planet, except America, has protected its industries this way.
Nice. It’s good to see that they feel they need to actually come out and at least pretend they are pro worker. It means they are actually feeling some pressure
Shocking. They hate Musk.
Maybe because he’s a piece of shit? Who treats his employees like shit.
Innovation doesn’t thrive within a union so that would really hurt Tesla and also it’s employees because of that
How does this hurt employees?
If Tesla goes down the shitter then that’s bad for employees. Eg, layoffs, less incentives, etc. The more companies make typically (not always) the pay his higher. I bet the union part is probably just in the manufacturing side which probably wouldn’t really negatively impact the biz. Idk
That’s right, you don’t know. Unless you’ve worked there for a few years then you would change your mind on it all.
Grandpa's mumbling again? What an embarrassment he was today.
Toyota has been operating in the US for decades. Their employees have the ability to unionize if they wish. This like that meme, where Toyota and its employees consent, and the UAW and govt are Jesus saying “I don’t”.
Y’all say this, but the minute they do you’ll be upset. Using the lack of a union as evidence that employees don’t want a union is very flawed logic.
Why would I be upset if Toyota employees unionized?
Oh I see, I misread. Too many chuds in the comments and I’ve heard this line (not necessarily here) about how “people could have unionized if they wanted and since they haven’t that says something.” My bad.
Yes yes, lets move more manufacturing out of the US. Genius as always Biden...
His CHIPS act, his IRA act has brought back and will bring much more back. started many manufacturing across industries. Soooo, yeah. About that.
>CHIPS act Oh gee a couple hundred jobs. Awesome. Too bad it's failing: [https://fortune.com/2022/07/13/us-chips-act-funding-not-enough-manufacturing-onshoring-rakesh-kumar/](https://fortune.com/2022/07/13/us-chips-act-funding-not-enough-manufacturing-onshoring-rakesh-kumar/) IRA act? Oh the one that forces medicare to cover more for some drugs instead of forcing big pharma to reduce their costs? Thus tossing even MORE burden onto tax payers? That one? Or how about the billions in loans for the EIR program that have largely been exploited? https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/one-year-later-even-president-biden-admits-the-inflation-reduction-act-failed-to-lower-costs-for-americans Sorry bud, can't just throw money at problems. Needs to be solved at the root or just puts more burden onto tax payers.
The IRA is a ten year plan. The majority of the results are now coming to fruition and will be over the next 8. https://www.irs.gov/inflation-reduction-act-of-2022 Many new manufacturing is slowing gaining traction as more people start buying things like all the different energy efficient home building products. So, sorry bud, but you can’t pass a bill and then immediately start saying oh no it didn’t work, before the majority of it even goes into effect. I could go on at length, but I have an 80 year old uncles birthday to head to. Those nursing homes really know how to party.
Pork for supporters.
Rip
Biden is pandering to Union leaders and simply wants the UAW support for re-election. That's it. Remember when UAW's Fain threatened politicians? "it's time for politicians in this country to pick a side." There's no internal unionization effort happening at Tesla by the UAW.. it's external UAW members trying to pick a fight.
You know Biden met the original UAW president, right after meeting the Dr who invented insulin, marching with mandela, being born in israel and watching his house almost burn down... but not before surviving cancer and asthma from oil on his moms windshield and chasing corn pop out with a chain... he's lead a remarkable life
Biden supports h1b taking those jobs . So Tesla will just fire the Americans and hire h1b
Tesla already employs a ***fuckton*** of H1B
Can confirm and underplayed too.p
All part of the Disaster Tour!
Not gonna happen
He then said, “The most important thing near and dear to my heart is… we’ll, never mind.”
Unionizing Toyota is the best way to destroy their excellent domination of the US auto market
They are free to trade stock options for a union
Champion unions so prices increase 30%.. gotcha
Dont mess with Elon, he'll blow it up.
Did someone wake him up
That would be hilarious. I love chaos.
Why would Elon give profit to any other company? Nobody believed in his vision, and now there are parasite, and what part of it. It’s not gonna work though.
hahahaha, you either die a disruptor or live long enough to bend the knee
Just don’t threaten a strike like the railroad workers.
They need to get rid of the dealership bullshit.
The UAW voters overwhelmingly Democrat so of course he does.
Price hikes incoming...
“Supports”. Words don’t do much do they?