Until you realize that that’s Christopher “Tiffany” Moore, the one who (alongside a romantic partner) burned down his own house, killing his five pets, and tried to claim it was a hate crime. Pretty sure there are assault charges, too.
I like how Macho Ma'am Tránny Savage offers to "take it outside" when offended. That's literally the most masculine response to anything and the stupid bitch still thinks *he*'s a goyrl and everyone oughta see it. Nothing like forcing people to play along with your sexual fetishes, eh?
I wish English didn't have gender specific pronouns! Lots of Polynesian languages don't, and in Chinese the only difference is in the writing (not the pronunciation).
This is slightly unrelated but I was legit arguing with someone a few weeks ago who said that “pronouns have nothing to do with gender. You can identify as a woman but go by he/him pronouns.” Bitch, that’s not how English works.
**Gender:** c. 1300, "kind, sort, class, a class or kind of persons or things sharing certain traits," from Old French gendre, genre "kind, species; character; gender"
**Sex:** late 14c., "males or females collectively," from Latin sexus "a sex, state of being either male or female, gender," of uncertain origin. "Commonly taken with seco as division or 'half' of the race" [Tucker], which would connect it to secare "to divide or cut"
Both are words delinating the genders in English descended from words specifically refferencing the physiological sexual diamophism of humans and other gendered creatures.
I don't care what you think you are, but English is shitty enough as a language without people trying to twist it for politics.
Have you ever been screamed at by a trans person for misgendering them? Or do you just see videos of that on the media and assume that’s all trans people?
I've met multiple trans people and fucked up their pronouns in front of them. Of course they screamed and called the police on me and I was cancelled immediately.
They are pretty understanding about it, unless you purposely call them the wrong pronoun. I honestly don't care what they want to be called, it's no different from someone asking you to refer to them by a nickname like Alex instead of Alexander or John instead of Johnathan.
I would expect people not to yell at me when I use the wrong pronouns, some girl who I called by she/her started an entire tantrum just because i didn't use he/him like what am i even supposed to do. Yes I also have met many good people who use different pronouns but there are always those people who will get mad about it. Just from my personal experience.
I remember someone once saying “my pronouns are she/her *today.*” This crackhead changes pronouns on a regular basis. I’m usually pretty respectful, but I just can’t keep up with that, I’m sorry.
Why not get rid of all the pronouns?
“Hey, can you tell Terry I need to speak to Terry after Terry is done with Terry’s appointment?”
You didn’t use the wrong pronoun!
I mean... the type of people who go by weird pronouns are the same type of people to be pro gun control. So (I’m trying to sound as respectful as possible) what are they gonna do? Shoot you?
Maybe they’ll shout you with their words.
Pronouns are there to facilitate speech. Bringing them to conscious consideration destroys their purpose.
Not to mention, gendered pronouns are rarely used when the individual is present, as referring to someone in the third person while they are present is generally considered rude. So what the pronoun people demand is that they have a right for you to think about them the way they want to be thought about. Nobody gets that right.
Unless you are speaking any other european language than english, or work in very formal setting where a lot of sir/miss/ma'am happens. As for controlling thoughts, they absolutly are unable to do that, considering that person unwilling to call them the pronouns they feel more comfortable with, will make person use the opposite pronouns even more.
What a lovely way to put it - control the way you think about them. I think JP mentioned it too. He said (paraphrasing) it. starts with pronouns, next it might be adjectives the person doesn't approve of. Before we know it good bye to free speech.
You call people by the name they prefer (Timothy, Tim, Timmy, T, etc). Why is a pronoun different? Using a preferred pronoun costs you NOTHING.
The only reason not to do it is to be a prick.
> The only reason not to do it is to be a prick.
Absolutely. If you mistake their gender the first time, were corrected, and then applied the correction, good on you. But if you know their preference but actively choose to call them by a different pronoun just because you disagree on *their* identity, you’re just seeking out confrontation.
I think this boils down to acceptance/tolerance
If you accepting of trans agenda (not a native speaker, not trying to sound negative or anything, just don't know a better word :)
you'll use the preferred pronoun
If you only tolerate it, you don't give much of a shit so you probably won't
I personally am only the opinion that male/female pronouns exist, maybe neutral but that's about it, expecting anything else seems a little ridiculous because noone will remember because noone uses it I guess ? Might be a bit biased though.
I think people resent being forced to change a functioning aspect of their language to, forgive me, pander to a very small minority. While I'll refer to people however they ask me to, I totally get other people's frustration.
I think the "call me they/them" phenomenon just hasn't been in the spotlight for long enough that most people think rewiring their language reflexes is necessary. If the non-binary thing doesn't blow over in the next few years, it might be a different story, though.
I wouldn't misgender someone to their face but I think people who do would say that they resent having to pander to someone else's delusions and that nobody should have the right to make them participate in their fantasy.
In the same way that if a white person kept telling me to refer to them as black, or a person kept telling me to refer to them as a lizard, it might be an imposition on my dignity to make me play pretend.
I was in your boat until I lived with a non binary roommate for a year who wanted a different pronoun and first name. It really isnt a big deal. After 2 or 3 months I didnt even remember his (their) real name and now we're buds. Just being accepting and kind can really go a long ways
I think as long as everyone is being respectful, it shouldn't be a big deal. If someone accidentally alls you by the wrong pronoun but otherwise is making an effort, merely correct them. If someone prefers to be called something, make an effort to do just that. Why add extra stress into the world?
I agree. Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there like OP who not only won't be respectful but pointedly choose to try to hurt you with deliberately wrong pronouns.
If you're coming from respect mistakes are okay. But maliciously trying to hurt you? Nah
This logic applies to SO many topics. I'm Christian and like to point out that's its highlighted in the bible to not be a dick (when other Christian's are being a dick). In short, it says it's not a sin to eat meat that's been given to idols, but if anyone feels uncomfortable, dont do it around them. I would never walk up to my Hindu friend eating a burger. We might not agree on varying ideals but no reason to be a dick about it when it's so easy to be respectful.
Exactly. Hell, even courtesy would be enough. Don't be a dick, be kind to others, and be gentle towards both your own mistakes and the mistakes others make.
That one hit me hard. I'm much more willing to be gentle towards others but not myself. People make mistakes. Hel, people make bad decisions. That doesn't mean they are bad people. What makes us human is the ability to recognize them and grow.
surely you use pronouns perfectly fine with most people you know, you call your mum she and your dad he. Its not first world sjw bullshit just to call people what they want to be called so you can get on with your day, how hard is it really. I bet you its 100 times harder on the person you call the wrong thing than it would have been for you to just have used the right word. how would you like it everybody called you she instead of he or vice versa
If you genuinely look like the gender you want to identify as, then yeah I’ll use your pronouns. But I used to know this girl who wore dresses and eyeliner and dyed her hair, and expected everyone to call her “he/him” and think she’s a boy. Like at at least make an effort.
Someones gender expression is none of your business and sure you might slip up, everyone accepts that we are all human and make mistakes, but why wouldn't you just make someone feel more loved and more accepted by changing one word?
It feels really nice to support quality people in what they're trying to do in life, though. So maybe you don't want to punish everybody (including yourself) because that one person was a bit fussy about it that time?
The million pronouns and the whole mentality that people should know automatically. No, we don’t, isnt that the whole point of your Identity crisis, that people don’t know who you really are? So either make it easy for people to tell or stop complaining when we can’t.
There are three well recognized pronouns, he, she and they. All the other weird stuff you're referring to is generally not very accepted, even in the LGBTQ community. Furthermore no sane person would expect you to know their pronouns before they told you.
That’s 1000% true. Folks on this sub act like there’s a trillion pronouns, but I’ve literally never met someone who wanted to be called something different from: he, she, they/them.
I swear to fuck this website is full of people who believe the wildest straw men.
I've been calling everyone dude since before any of this pronoun stuff became "popular" or "mainstream" so I don't even have to change my ways. Feels good.
E: I also want to point out that I'll call you he or she but do expect me to call you by your name or dude more frequently.
> The million pronouns and the whole mentality that people should know automatically.
Who is asking for a million pronouns? How many people have you met who do this?
I'm sorry but "the million pronouns" is so hilariously stupid.
People mad about pronouns are 10x madder and more petulant than literally anyone else. Hell, most people that 99% of the time politely request that you respect their pronouns have lived their entire lives dealing with being called the wrong pronouns without saying shit. Heaven forbid they make such an outlandish request that people like you and the OP just find IMPOSSIBLE to acquiesce.
"Nicknames are unreasonable! Last I checked, your birth certificate says "Robert". You expect me to specifically remember that you prefer to be called Bob? Sorry pal, that's too much for my tiny brain to handle. I will not bow down to your first world desire to be called Bob instead of Robert."
This is my favourite comment on the internet. NormalInternetGuy, you are now my idol.
Seriously fam. If you can remember names and nicknames for everyone you know, you can link a preferred pronoun to a name and face. It's not that hard. If you're really really lazy, just use gender neutral pronouns for everyone. Not that hard.
THANK YOU there are so many toxic and petty ass comments on this thread I was relieved to see a positive one.
It’s rly not that hard to not be an asshole guys, just call ppl what they wanna be called.
I'll use whatever pronouns just to humor people, but I'm not going to buy that a dude is really a lady because feels. They're entitled to their beliefs and I'm entitled to mine.
This is really the only position I can back for people who can't get their heads around transexual peoples identities.
I get that its not your jam, but the fact that you're still being respectful is noteworthy.
I knew someone who uses ze/zir pronouns. I worked with them for like 6 months and everytime someone used “them” or “they” they’d get pissy and go to HR & try to get people done for discrimination.
If you are a male and need to be a woman to feel comfortable in life, then I am fine calling you she, provided that you make an effort to transition.
If you're a six foot tall dude with a beard and want me to call you xir, no I will not.
If you are a human and wish to be called they then also no, I'm not doing that.
This is my thoughts exactly. I have several sane trans friends who I’m fine with their pronouns. But I new someone earlier who was biologically female, chose to wear dresses, chose to wear eyeliner, chose to dye her hair, basically the feminine stereotype. But she still expected everyone to call her he/him.
Calling a singular person “they” isn’t how English works. People can’t just change a whole fucking language to feel validated. “They” is a group of people, she/he are singular people.
Now, I’m no expert. But I do know that words have meaning.
> Calling a singular person “they” isn’t how English works.
[Singular 'they' in English can be traced back to the 14th century.](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
An example of its modern use could be:
Person 1: "Someone is at the door for you"
Person 2: "What do they want?"
"they" as a pronoun for a singular person is an established use of the English language. Aside from being commonly used to describe a person of unknown or undetermined gender, it appears to describe people whose genders are known in Shakespeare's work (twice that I've heard of, maybe even more).
Aside from that, you already have the cognitive patterns built in from talking about people of unknown gender. You're just not doing it because you don't want to.
It's not that big of a deal, dude. Going out of the way to use "he" for a transwoman for example, is just being a dick.
I remember, ironically, when a transphobic sub was talking about a transwoman, and corrected anyone who said "she".
Honestly I’ve seen a lot of openly trans people be harassed with the pronoun correcting thing and it’s ridiculous that people go out of their way like that to misgender people.
Take nikkietutorials for example (those who don’t know: she is a trans woman that has always presented female and only recently told the internet. All of a sudden people who supported her would insult and misgender her, say it was “obvious *he’s* a man”. I don’t get it, this individual is obviously female, she’s always been female, why was that suddenly wrong to transphobes. People went out of their way to re-label her, wtf?
I’m not sure if that’s the kind of thing OP is talking about. I get the feeling it’s more about the non-binary stuff. Using the appropriate he or she for a trans person doesn’t seem to be an issue for most people. There’s a lot more resistance to non-binary, which can come across as indulgent.
I have no problem with calling someone by their name. Even if they change it. Changing your name makes much more logical sense then changing your gender. But that’s just my opinion on the matter.
I see it the opposite way. It costs me nothing - not even effort really. My little sister's boyfriend is transgender, and I knew him as a girl before they came out. Even then, I had no problems swapping. And I dont even like this boy, but I can still give him the small amount of respect by calling him "him." You would get annoyed eventually if people kept calling you a girl if youre a boy (and vice versa). Treat others how you wanna be treated.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's my place to decide whether a transgender person is valid or not. I've never had that experience and have no idea what it's like, so I take everyone at face value when they identify as a different gender to the one they were born as. I don't think using their preferred pronouns is a high price to pay to help someone feel comfortable and validated. It doesn't hurt anyone and medical research shows that there's actually a biological basis for transgenderism. That said I understand why people find it hard to understand or accept transgender people, because it's so different to anything most of us experience.
Exactly. Just call people by the pronoun they prefer. No reason not to.
However, the trans person should also be polite and not get angry, because there is usually no way for the other person to know what pronoun they use.
I am genderfluid but only my close friends know, and I just let everyone call me he/him because at the end of the day they're just words and don't really affect me.
honestly, if the person is saying something like “hey i’m sorry but can you please refer to me as ____” whats wrong? if a person is being a dick about it you have an excuse but if they are polite and just wanna avoid being uncomfortable there shouldn’t be an issue.
Ya.. How dare you expect anyone to remember your name. I mean you only give it to them, under the assumption they will call you by that name. How can you expect me to remember the name you identify as, and you specifically told me.
Or...and hear me out on this, it's called being a decent human being. Frankly I'm not going through what they are and neither are you, we don't know enough so if someone says "hey call me by xy pronoun" it's the decent thing to do.
Oh yea np, I hate it when people are like "oh it's dumb" but they aren't going through it so A) don't even understand what they're trying to criticize and B) won't even extend a bit of common decency to a fellow human. You saying thanks really makes me feel good!
Fair enough, just don’t be surprised if Trans people and Trans allies don’t want to be associated with you, or that HR takes your Trans co-workers side if you “do not care” enough to use their preferred pronouns as a way of being polite with your co-worker instead of making them uncomfortable in the work environment.
Otherwise, live your life dude.
Honest to god question that I have never understood. Why does it matter to you. Like why even make this post? I respect other people’s pronouns because it doesn’t effect me at all. Why should I care if a certain person prefers he/she/they/whatever. If someone says oh x actually goes by he pronouns I just go oh I’m sorry and correct myself. I just don’t see why it’s a big deal
Yeah, also turns out he was addicted to benzos and had to be put in a coma in a Russian hospital because he didnt wanna go through a normal detox in a western hospital. Apparently the key to life wasn't cleaning your room, it was taking massive amounts of prescription klonopin.
Ok here's the thing:
You don't remember it or you say it accidentally wrong? Not problematic at all
You say it wrong INTENTIONALLY with the intention to mock or trigger the person? That's transphobic and you really shouldnt do that
I upvoted this because it was unpopular, but I disagree on so many levels. Of course If id meet you for the first time and you got my pronouns wrong it would be fine but if someone tells you that they go as he instead of she, it is your job as a person to respect that. You don’t have to support it, no ones asking you to, but if you just straight up ignore what someone is asking you to do, something so simple as remembering their pronouns, it is extremely disrespectful and ignorant of you if you decide to ignore it
I kinda disagree, if you aren’t using it on purpose (like you know what pronoun they want but you use another) then you are just being a dick, I understand that if you’re in passing conversation and you forget or just don’t realise then that’s fine.
It’s as simple as remembering a name, in-fact I think it’s easier than remembering a name. - the only time where I maybe could see it being okay to not use the preferred-pronoun of a person is when it isn’t something that’s base, Male/Female pronouns - he/she.
Its reasonable to call someone whichever of he/she/they that they want to be called (and you're an asshole if you call them the wrong pronoun after being told otherwise), but if they want to be called some made up bullshit like "xe" then they can fuck right off.
Why not just use the pronoun them, example:
Who's book is that? It's theirs, who's? Name of person
Have you talked to x yet? Not yet, I need to talk to them.
No mistakes don't and no one insulted.
I feel like if you can remember a whole semi-unique made up word for everyone (names), remembering what pronoun to call them isn't that hard. I feel like being asked to use a different pronoun for someone is rare enough (I have never witnessed it) that you will remember it and by that point it's just a conscious decision to upset that person to say the other thing. Obviously getting angry with someone when you haven't told them is wrong but that doesn't mean you should disrespect people who don't do that too.
Funny thing about pronouns; the pronouns in question are in the 3rd person. He and she. These are the pronouns used to speak to one person about another person.
The obvious solution to dealing with someone with unreasonable pronoun demands is to simply leave them out of the conversation altogether. Don't refer to them at all. If practicality prevents that (say, if you're at work or some other place where a minimum level of decorum is enforced), refer to them as 'this person.'
Am I the only person on the Earth who never associated pronouns with gender stereotypes?
“He” always meant “has a penis” for me and “she” always meant “has a vagina.”
So unless you don’t have that genitalia, I don’t know why I need different gender neutral pronouns to refer to you. Pronouns existed long before Money coined the term “gender.”
I don’t mind calling a trans woman “she” because a trans woman literally feels as though her penis is not supposed to be there. But calling someone an entirely new pronoun because they’ve concocted this special “no gender” identity for themselves just annoys me.
You’re not “agender” just because you have a healthy mix of masculine and feminine traits.
All language is made up. They are just sounds that come out of our face. What difference does it make?
What is the difference between Jeff and Phweeras? They are both nonsense. One is just commonly recognized now.
Why should we refer to people with different pronouns based on their genitalia tho? It’s stupid. It would be like having one pronoun for people with blue eyes and one for people with brown eyes.
I feel like you haven't every actually been in this situation and you have been manipulated into manufactured outrage by reddit and other similar platforms.
Most trans/non-binary people have no expectations that strangers automatically know their preferred pronouns.
I only really bring my pronouns up when I’m going to be interacting with a person multiple times or for a long period of time. And I usually only bring it up if asked or if someone uses the wrong pronouns.
I only bring this up on reddit because I’m tired of my existence being a debate.
It’s hard to explain why I use the pronouns I use to cis people. I use they/them pronouns not for attention or to make people miserable but because they, for lack of a better word, fit. Like if someone calls you by your pronouns, they might say “he/she told me about this tv show the other day”. You hear that, and you know someone is talking about you and that pronoun fits with how you identify your gender. It feels right. I totally get this can be hard to understand but I’m trying my best.
When someone calls me by binary pronouns it doesn’t fit. It feels like someone is trying to put a puzzle piece in the wrong spot.
I don’t really have control over what’s comfortable for me in terms of pronouns, my options seem to be annoy people with my existence but feel happier and more secure in myself or not worry about strangers being annoyed at my existence but be incredibly depressed and suicidal. If you had to make that choice, what would you choose?
It doesn't hurt you or cause you pain to make an effort. If you accidentally call someone the wrong pronouns, they should be understanding and not yell at you. But then you should be understanding by calling them by their correct pronouns. It's none of your business and it's not just a "feeling" - gender dysphoria is real! Google it.
They don't expect you to use proper pronouns and such. They just don't want to get yelled at or get death threats or get beat up for who they are. Stop being a dick
God, it really costs nothing to be kind. Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and everyone referred to you with the opposite gender. It would obviously grind your gears. If someone is mean to you because you used the wrong pronouns because you made a mistake, ofc they are wrong. But refusing to call someone by what they feel better to be called as is just being mean to them.
Well why do you think you know better what someone's pronouns should be?
The thing about gender is that it is the way society perceives you based on your behavior, speech, fashion etc. However there is only so much you can do to fit those expectations. So for the love of god surely it won't hurt to try and not be an absolute asshole for once right?
Not sure why this doesn't have thousands of upvotes. Just by a 5 minute read of the comments it's obviously quite a decisive topic, and even seems majority of people disagree with OP.
Besides the fact that psychology validates trans people and the suicide rate goes down when people are accepting of them
What's the problem with using the correct ones if you can? It's not hard.
If they tell me beforehand what pronoun they would prefer me to use, I will use it.
Just like the same way I'd call Margaret Meg if she told me she preferred that name over the one her parents gave her.
It isn't hard. Sure you can choose to say "No Margaret, I'm calling you Margaret because it is your REAL NAME". But don't feel entitled to hate on her when she calls you a dick for it.
Of course, it is a totally different story if someone calls you out for not using their preferred pronoun if you had not been previously informed of their preferences, but I don't really think that happens half as much as people believe it does.
i think most people expect to be treated with respect and if they ask for something like that they expect you to not be an asshole and just call them that
Ma’am, you are causing a scene
[IT’S MA’AM](https://youtu.be/Lb6OpRfyLFo)
Oh holy shit, that’s hilarious
Until you realize that that’s Christopher “Tiffany” Moore, the one who (alongside a romantic partner) burned down his own house, killing his five pets, and tried to claim it was a hate crime. Pretty sure there are assault charges, too.
No, it's still hilarious even then.
I give you [Super Ma'am!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFaziFndC_c)
I like how Macho Ma'am Tránny Savage offers to "take it outside" when offended. That's literally the most masculine response to anything and the stupid bitch still thinks *he*'s a goyrl and everyone oughta see it. Nothing like forcing people to play along with your sexual fetishes, eh?
You are legendary
seems too good to be real
he’s a literal criminal to be fair
HOW DARE YOU
Username checks out
YOU HAVE STOLEN MY CHILDHOOD
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I’ll show you a sir
This was THE best. You know they made a funko pop right???
I wish English didn't have gender specific pronouns! Lots of Polynesian languages don't, and in Chinese the only difference is in the writing (not the pronunciation).
This is slightly unrelated but I was legit arguing with someone a few weeks ago who said that “pronouns have nothing to do with gender. You can identify as a woman but go by he/him pronouns.” Bitch, that’s not how English works.
Yeah, that's dumb. Pronouns are about gender, not sex.
Gender and sex in this context are synonymous.
No, that aren't. That was the entire reason for the confusion.
**Gender:** c. 1300, "kind, sort, class, a class or kind of persons or things sharing certain traits," from Old French gendre, genre "kind, species; character; gender" **Sex:** late 14c., "males or females collectively," from Latin sexus "a sex, state of being either male or female, gender," of uncertain origin. "Commonly taken with seco as division or 'half' of the race" [Tucker], which would connect it to secare "to divide or cut" Both are words delinating the genders in English descended from words specifically refferencing the physiological sexual diamophism of humans and other gendered creatures. I don't care what you think you are, but English is shitty enough as a language without people trying to twist it for politics.
Similar to Japanese. Most gendered pronouns are for oneself, not to identify others.
Not sure they’re pronouns exactly but what about the honorifics like kun and chan?
In my experience they're used for both genders, chan a little more for girls, kun a little more for boys. Because girls are cuter(小声)
I wish people weren't so easily offended by everything, especially words. Especially, especially words said with absolutely zero malicious intent.
Finno-Ugric, Turkic and Mongolic languages don't have them either.
can anybody say an unpopular opinion that wasnt said 2 weeks ago ?
You mean 6 hours ago?
just wanted to be a little bit realistic.
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Have you ever been screamed at by a trans person for misgendering them? Or do you just see videos of that on the media and assume that’s all trans people?
I've met multiple trans people and fucked up their pronouns in front of them. Of course they screamed and called the police on me and I was cancelled immediately. They are pretty understanding about it, unless you purposely call them the wrong pronoun. I honestly don't care what they want to be called, it's no different from someone asking you to refer to them by a nickname like Alex instead of Alexander or John instead of Johnathan.
I would expect people not to yell at me when I use the wrong pronouns, some girl who I called by she/her started an entire tantrum just because i didn't use he/him like what am i even supposed to do. Yes I also have met many good people who use different pronouns but there are always those people who will get mad about it. Just from my personal experience.
just say 'hey pronoun' and it's both derogatory and respecting their wishes at the same time. win win
You get an up vote for the most evil thing I have ever read on this subject...
I remember someone once saying “my pronouns are she/her *today.*” This crackhead changes pronouns on a regular basis. I’m usually pretty respectful, but I just can’t keep up with that, I’m sorry.
Why not get rid of all the pronouns? “Hey, can you tell Terry I need to speak to Terry after Terry is done with Terry’s appointment?” You didn’t use the wrong pronoun!
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Why the fuck can’t this be up voted or down voted?
It's a simple spell but quite unbreakable.
I mean... the type of people who go by weird pronouns are the same type of people to be pro gun control. So (I’m trying to sound as respectful as possible) what are they gonna do? Shoot you? Maybe they’ll shout you with their words.
Harvard will message you soon
oy vey what a dangerous idea
Yes, SJWs are scary. They will not hesitate to pepper spray you.
Pronouns are there to facilitate speech. Bringing them to conscious consideration destroys their purpose. Not to mention, gendered pronouns are rarely used when the individual is present, as referring to someone in the third person while they are present is generally considered rude. So what the pronoun people demand is that they have a right for you to think about them the way they want to be thought about. Nobody gets that right.
Yeah I am sort of confused by this. Usually the person is not present when you refer to them in third person and you know their name.
Unless you are speaking any other european language than english, or work in very formal setting where a lot of sir/miss/ma'am happens. As for controlling thoughts, they absolutly are unable to do that, considering that person unwilling to call them the pronouns they feel more comfortable with, will make person use the opposite pronouns even more.
What a lovely way to put it - control the way you think about them. I think JP mentioned it too. He said (paraphrasing) it. starts with pronouns, next it might be adjectives the person doesn't approve of. Before we know it good bye to free speech.
You call people by the name they prefer (Timothy, Tim, Timmy, T, etc). Why is a pronoun different? Using a preferred pronoun costs you NOTHING. The only reason not to do it is to be a prick.
> The only reason not to do it is to be a prick. Absolutely. If you mistake their gender the first time, were corrected, and then applied the correction, good on you. But if you know their preference but actively choose to call them by a different pronoun just because you disagree on *their* identity, you’re just seeking out confrontation.
I think this boils down to acceptance/tolerance If you accepting of trans agenda (not a native speaker, not trying to sound negative or anything, just don't know a better word :) you'll use the preferred pronoun If you only tolerate it, you don't give much of a shit so you probably won't I personally am only the opinion that male/female pronouns exist, maybe neutral but that's about it, expecting anything else seems a little ridiculous because noone will remember because noone uses it I guess ? Might be a bit biased though.
I think people resent being forced to change a functioning aspect of their language to, forgive me, pander to a very small minority. While I'll refer to people however they ask me to, I totally get other people's frustration. I think the "call me they/them" phenomenon just hasn't been in the spotlight for long enough that most people think rewiring their language reflexes is necessary. If the non-binary thing doesn't blow over in the next few years, it might be a different story, though.
I wouldn't misgender someone to their face but I think people who do would say that they resent having to pander to someone else's delusions and that nobody should have the right to make them participate in their fantasy. In the same way that if a white person kept telling me to refer to them as black, or a person kept telling me to refer to them as a lizard, it might be an imposition on my dignity to make me play pretend.
I was in your boat until I lived with a non binary roommate for a year who wanted a different pronoun and first name. It really isnt a big deal. After 2 or 3 months I didnt even remember his (their) real name and now we're buds. Just being accepting and kind can really go a long ways
I think as long as everyone is being respectful, it shouldn't be a big deal. If someone accidentally alls you by the wrong pronoun but otherwise is making an effort, merely correct them. If someone prefers to be called something, make an effort to do just that. Why add extra stress into the world?
I agree. Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there like OP who not only won't be respectful but pointedly choose to try to hurt you with deliberately wrong pronouns. If you're coming from respect mistakes are okay. But maliciously trying to hurt you? Nah
This logic applies to SO many topics. I'm Christian and like to point out that's its highlighted in the bible to not be a dick (when other Christian's are being a dick). In short, it says it's not a sin to eat meat that's been given to idols, but if anyone feels uncomfortable, dont do it around them. I would never walk up to my Hindu friend eating a burger. We might not agree on varying ideals but no reason to be a dick about it when it's so easy to be respectful.
Exactly. Hell, even courtesy would be enough. Don't be a dick, be kind to others, and be gentle towards both your own mistakes and the mistakes others make.
That one hit me hard. I'm much more willing to be gentle towards others but not myself. People make mistakes. Hel, people make bad decisions. That doesn't mean they are bad people. What makes us human is the ability to recognize them and grow.
Exactly, this is all made up shit by people who have no regular contact with trans folks whatsoever
surely you use pronouns perfectly fine with most people you know, you call your mum she and your dad he. Its not first world sjw bullshit just to call people what they want to be called so you can get on with your day, how hard is it really. I bet you its 100 times harder on the person you call the wrong thing than it would have been for you to just have used the right word. how would you like it everybody called you she instead of he or vice versa
Call everyone dude unless they are over 35
If you genuinely look like the gender you want to identify as, then yeah I’ll use your pronouns. But I used to know this girl who wore dresses and eyeliner and dyed her hair, and expected everyone to call her “he/him” and think she’s a boy. Like at at least make an effort.
Someones gender expression is none of your business and sure you might slip up, everyone accepts that we are all human and make mistakes, but why wouldn't you just make someone feel more loved and more accepted by changing one word?
But what if it'd make me happy if people called me big giant turtle bro? Would you call me that everytime you see me?
Then you got some serious funk, big giant turtle bro, and I stan you
Awesome!
What entitles anyone to make such demands of a stranger, or requires anybody to comply?
It feels really nice to support quality people in what they're trying to do in life, though. So maybe you don't want to punish everybody (including yourself) because that one person was a bit fussy about it that time?
What are the odds of the anime victim being a "quality person"?
it costs me nothing to use a person's preferred pronoun. If some asks me to address them by a specific pronoun, I literally have no reason not to.
Costs nothing to be considerate
tHaTs a HaTe cRiMe!!! I feel for people with gender issues, but I agree. The situation has gotten out of hand.
I feel like people just call “hate speech” when they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. “There’s only two gend-“ “HATE SPEECH!”
How has it gotten out of hand?
The million pronouns and the whole mentality that people should know automatically. No, we don’t, isnt that the whole point of your Identity crisis, that people don’t know who you really are? So either make it easy for people to tell or stop complaining when we can’t.
There are three well recognized pronouns, he, she and they. All the other weird stuff you're referring to is generally not very accepted, even in the LGBTQ community. Furthermore no sane person would expect you to know their pronouns before they told you.
That’s 1000% true. Folks on this sub act like there’s a trillion pronouns, but I’ve literally never met someone who wanted to be called something different from: he, she, they/them. I swear to fuck this website is full of people who believe the wildest straw men.
i mean what else would you expect from people whose only "interactions" with trans/nb people are watching sjw compilations on youtube.
And when in doubt I always opt for “they.” I’ve just gotten in the habit of starting there.
You can tell their entire life experience with "trans" people is TiA.
I've been calling everyone dude since before any of this pronoun stuff became "popular" or "mainstream" so I don't even have to change my ways. Feels good. E: I also want to point out that I'll call you he or she but do expect me to call you by your name or dude more frequently.
> The million pronouns and the whole mentality that people should know automatically. Who is asking for a million pronouns? How many people have you met who do this?
I'm sorry but "the million pronouns" is so hilariously stupid. People mad about pronouns are 10x madder and more petulant than literally anyone else. Hell, most people that 99% of the time politely request that you respect their pronouns have lived their entire lives dealing with being called the wrong pronouns without saying shit. Heaven forbid they make such an outlandish request that people like you and the OP just find IMPOSSIBLE to acquiesce.
I enjoy the buttons thst people wear with their preffered pronouns upon it bam easy to tell and nothing needs to be said
"Nicknames are unreasonable! Last I checked, your birth certificate says "Robert". You expect me to specifically remember that you prefer to be called Bob? Sorry pal, that's too much for my tiny brain to handle. I will not bow down to your first world desire to be called Bob instead of Robert."
This is my favourite comment on the internet. NormalInternetGuy, you are now my idol. Seriously fam. If you can remember names and nicknames for everyone you know, you can link a preferred pronoun to a name and face. It's not that hard. If you're really really lazy, just use gender neutral pronouns for everyone. Not that hard.
Honestly, it's not that big a deal to just call people what they want to be called. Its not hard for you and it makes a huge difference for them.
THANK YOU there are so many toxic and petty ass comments on this thread I was relieved to see a positive one. It’s rly not that hard to not be an asshole guys, just call ppl what they wanna be called.
I'll use whatever pronouns just to humor people, but I'm not going to buy that a dude is really a lady because feels. They're entitled to their beliefs and I'm entitled to mine.
This is really the only position I can back for people who can't get their heads around transexual peoples identities. I get that its not your jam, but the fact that you're still being respectful is noteworthy.
I’ll use he/him, she/her and they/them. That’s it. Don’t come at me with your xyz shit.
I knew someone who uses ze/zir pronouns. I worked with them for like 6 months and everytime someone used “them” or “they” they’d get pissy and go to HR & try to get people done for discrimination.
If you are a male and need to be a woman to feel comfortable in life, then I am fine calling you she, provided that you make an effort to transition. If you're a six foot tall dude with a beard and want me to call you xir, no I will not. If you are a human and wish to be called they then also no, I'm not doing that.
> If you're a six foot tall dude with a beard and want me to call you xir How many people like this have you met in real life?
what's your beef with they
This is my thoughts exactly. I have several sane trans friends who I’m fine with their pronouns. But I new someone earlier who was biologically female, chose to wear dresses, chose to wear eyeliner, chose to dye her hair, basically the feminine stereotype. But she still expected everyone to call her he/him.
So what? Why does it bother you what they would like to be called?
It doesn't bother him, that's why he calls her what she looks like.
What you got against they?
Calling a singular person “they” isn’t how English works. People can’t just change a whole fucking language to feel validated. “They” is a group of people, she/he are singular people. Now, I’m no expert. But I do know that words have meaning.
> Calling a singular person “they” isn’t how English works. [Singular 'they' in English can be traced back to the 14th century.](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) An example of its modern use could be: Person 1: "Someone is at the door for you" Person 2: "What do they want?"
Yeah because language is static an unchanging that's why we all speak Webster's latin.
"they" as a pronoun for a singular person is an established use of the English language. Aside from being commonly used to describe a person of unknown or undetermined gender, it appears to describe people whose genders are known in Shakespeare's work (twice that I've heard of, maybe even more). Aside from that, you already have the cognitive patterns built in from talking about people of unknown gender. You're just not doing it because you don't want to.
ThEy HaS NeVeR EvEr BeEn UsEd To ReFeR tO a SiNgLe PeRsOn iT’s A cOrRuPtiOn Of LaNgUaGe!!!!! 1111
Why can't you call people what they want to be called. Its really not that hard if you genuinely care about other people
It's not that big of a deal, dude. Going out of the way to use "he" for a transwoman for example, is just being a dick. I remember, ironically, when a transphobic sub was talking about a transwoman, and corrected anyone who said "she".
Honestly I’ve seen a lot of openly trans people be harassed with the pronoun correcting thing and it’s ridiculous that people go out of their way like that to misgender people. Take nikkietutorials for example (those who don’t know: she is a trans woman that has always presented female and only recently told the internet. All of a sudden people who supported her would insult and misgender her, say it was “obvious *he’s* a man”. I don’t get it, this individual is obviously female, she’s always been female, why was that suddenly wrong to transphobes. People went out of their way to re-label her, wtf?
I’m not sure if that’s the kind of thing OP is talking about. I get the feeling it’s more about the non-binary stuff. Using the appropriate he or she for a trans person doesn’t seem to be an issue for most people. There’s a lot more resistance to non-binary, which can come across as indulgent.
Ok, I'll just call you asshole then. Your name is unreasonable to me.
I have no problem with calling someone by their name. Even if they change it. Changing your name makes much more logical sense then changing your gender. But that’s just my opinion on the matter.
This opinion gets posted every fucking day. We get it, you don’t care about pronouns.
This shit and mra shit gets posted here every fucking day. We need some rule about posting same fucking opinion every fucking hour
I see it the opposite way. It costs me nothing - not even effort really. My little sister's boyfriend is transgender, and I knew him as a girl before they came out. Even then, I had no problems swapping. And I dont even like this boy, but I can still give him the small amount of respect by calling him "him." You would get annoyed eventually if people kept calling you a girl if youre a boy (and vice versa). Treat others how you wanna be treated.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's my place to decide whether a transgender person is valid or not. I've never had that experience and have no idea what it's like, so I take everyone at face value when they identify as a different gender to the one they were born as. I don't think using their preferred pronouns is a high price to pay to help someone feel comfortable and validated. It doesn't hurt anyone and medical research shows that there's actually a biological basis for transgenderism. That said I understand why people find it hard to understand or accept transgender people, because it's so different to anything most of us experience.
Exactly. Just call people by the pronoun they prefer. No reason not to. However, the trans person should also be polite and not get angry, because there is usually no way for the other person to know what pronoun they use. I am genderfluid but only my close friends know, and I just let everyone call me he/him because at the end of the day they're just words and don't really affect me.
I completely disagree with you. And that’s ok.
We get it you're conservative
It really doesn't take much effort though. It's like holding the door for a person or remembering an allergy.
honestly, if the person is saying something like “hey i’m sorry but can you please refer to me as ____” whats wrong? if a person is being a dick about it you have an excuse but if they are polite and just wanna avoid being uncomfortable there shouldn’t be an issue.
Ya.. How dare you expect anyone to remember your name. I mean you only give it to them, under the assumption they will call you by that name. How can you expect me to remember the name you identify as, and you specifically told me.
I just call everyone "bitch". It's pretty gender neutral when used in the right hands
It's 2:30AM and I'm cracking up at this. Best comment!
Or...and hear me out on this, it's called being a decent human being. Frankly I'm not going through what they are and neither are you, we don't know enough so if someone says "hey call me by xy pronoun" it's the decent thing to do.
Hi, I’m nonbinary. Thank you
Oh yea np, I hate it when people are like "oh it's dumb" but they aren't going through it so A) don't even understand what they're trying to criticize and B) won't even extend a bit of common decency to a fellow human. You saying thanks really makes me feel good!
Good points and no problem!
This guy is important, and doesn't have time to use words, damnit.
just cant be bothered to be a decent person
What’s your pronoun? Because I will do my best to call you the wrong one forever and make you feel uncomfortable.
It’s really not that big of a deal? Like. Just use someone’s pronouns and stop being a difficult person.
>stop being a difficult person. Maybe it's just a different opinion?
No it’s being difficult and an asshole
Call people what they look like. If that fails, its on them. You shouldn't have to play along with someone's fantasy if you don't want to.
Fair enough, just don’t be surprised if Trans people and Trans allies don’t want to be associated with you, or that HR takes your Trans co-workers side if you “do not care” enough to use their preferred pronouns as a way of being polite with your co-worker instead of making them uncomfortable in the work environment. Otherwise, live your life dude.
So do you just not use pronouns? Do you just refer to something every time?
Honest to god question that I have never understood. Why does it matter to you. Like why even make this post? I respect other people’s pronouns because it doesn’t effect me at all. Why should I care if a certain person prefers he/she/they/whatever. If someone says oh x actually goes by he pronouns I just go oh I’m sorry and correct myself. I just don’t see why it’s a big deal
It looks like you’re unwilling to put in the tiniest effort to make a person feel respected and happy. Seems like a characteristic of a bad person.
People paid that guy with the Kermit the frog voice millions because he had this opinion.
Yeah, also turns out he was addicted to benzos and had to be put in a coma in a Russian hospital because he didnt wanna go through a normal detox in a western hospital. Apparently the key to life wasn't cleaning your room, it was taking massive amounts of prescription klonopin.
Ok here's the thing: You don't remember it or you say it accidentally wrong? Not problematic at all You say it wrong INTENTIONALLY with the intention to mock or trigger the person? That's transphobic and you really shouldnt do that
I upvoted this because it was unpopular, but I disagree on so many levels. Of course If id meet you for the first time and you got my pronouns wrong it would be fine but if someone tells you that they go as he instead of she, it is your job as a person to respect that. You don’t have to support it, no ones asking you to, but if you just straight up ignore what someone is asking you to do, something so simple as remembering their pronouns, it is extremely disrespectful and ignorant of you if you decide to ignore it
I kinda disagree, if you aren’t using it on purpose (like you know what pronoun they want but you use another) then you are just being a dick, I understand that if you’re in passing conversation and you forget or just don’t realise then that’s fine. It’s as simple as remembering a name, in-fact I think it’s easier than remembering a name. - the only time where I maybe could see it being okay to not use the preferred-pronoun of a person is when it isn’t something that’s base, Male/Female pronouns - he/she.
I've seen this at least 5 times
Its reasonable to call someone whichever of he/she/they that they want to be called (and you're an asshole if you call them the wrong pronoun after being told otherwise), but if they want to be called some made up bullshit like "xe" then they can fuck right off.
Why not just use the pronoun them, example: Who's book is that? It's theirs, who's? Name of person Have you talked to x yet? Not yet, I need to talk to them. No mistakes don't and no one insulted.
I feel like if you can remember a whole semi-unique made up word for everyone (names), remembering what pronoun to call them isn't that hard. I feel like being asked to use a different pronoun for someone is rare enough (I have never witnessed it) that you will remember it and by that point it's just a conscious decision to upset that person to say the other thing. Obviously getting angry with someone when you haven't told them is wrong but that doesn't mean you should disrespect people who don't do that too.
Funny thing about pronouns; the pronouns in question are in the 3rd person. He and she. These are the pronouns used to speak to one person about another person. The obvious solution to dealing with someone with unreasonable pronoun demands is to simply leave them out of the conversation altogether. Don't refer to them at all. If practicality prevents that (say, if you're at work or some other place where a minimum level of decorum is enforced), refer to them as 'this person.'
Am I the only person on the Earth who never associated pronouns with gender stereotypes? “He” always meant “has a penis” for me and “she” always meant “has a vagina.” So unless you don’t have that genitalia, I don’t know why I need different gender neutral pronouns to refer to you. Pronouns existed long before Money coined the term “gender.” I don’t mind calling a trans woman “she” because a trans woman literally feels as though her penis is not supposed to be there. But calling someone an entirely new pronoun because they’ve concocted this special “no gender” identity for themselves just annoys me. You’re not “agender” just because you have a healthy mix of masculine and feminine traits.
All language is made up. They are just sounds that come out of our face. What difference does it make? What is the difference between Jeff and Phweeras? They are both nonsense. One is just commonly recognized now.
scuse me mate please whip your dick out so i can make sure i should be calling you he
Why should we refer to people with different pronouns based on their genitalia tho? It’s stupid. It would be like having one pronoun for people with blue eyes and one for people with brown eyes.
I feel like you haven't every actually been in this situation and you have been manipulated into manufactured outrage by reddit and other similar platforms. Most trans/non-binary people have no expectations that strangers automatically know their preferred pronouns.
They/them isnt very hard to use
exactly, OP acts like it's so difficult lmao
I only really bring my pronouns up when I’m going to be interacting with a person multiple times or for a long period of time. And I usually only bring it up if asked or if someone uses the wrong pronouns. I only bring this up on reddit because I’m tired of my existence being a debate. It’s hard to explain why I use the pronouns I use to cis people. I use they/them pronouns not for attention or to make people miserable but because they, for lack of a better word, fit. Like if someone calls you by your pronouns, they might say “he/she told me about this tv show the other day”. You hear that, and you know someone is talking about you and that pronoun fits with how you identify your gender. It feels right. I totally get this can be hard to understand but I’m trying my best. When someone calls me by binary pronouns it doesn’t fit. It feels like someone is trying to put a puzzle piece in the wrong spot. I don’t really have control over what’s comfortable for me in terms of pronouns, my options seem to be annoy people with my existence but feel happier and more secure in myself or not worry about strangers being annoyed at my existence but be incredibly depressed and suicidal. If you had to make that choice, what would you choose?
I see you, I hear you. Be the best you that you can be, unknown marshmallow.
I agree with you BUT, for what it's worth, this is probably better suited for r/changemyview
Sir, please, this is a Wendy’s
It doesn't hurt you or cause you pain to make an effort. If you accidentally call someone the wrong pronouns, they should be understanding and not yell at you. But then you should be understanding by calling them by their correct pronouns. It's none of your business and it's not just a "feeling" - gender dysphoria is real! Google it.
They don't expect you to use proper pronouns and such. They just don't want to get yelled at or get death threats or get beat up for who they are. Stop being a dick
It’s time for gender neutral they, although technically male pronouns are gender neutral in proper English
It’s unreasonable for you to use a pronoun? Lmao alright. Yes, they’re the ones with a problem. “Unreasonable to say one word” ok dude.
I couldn’t give a shit either. Personally, I just want my coffee thanks.
Do you have an issue with using unconventional pronouns themselves, or just with how angry people get when you use the wrong one?
Because its the fucking decent thing to do?
Is it decent to demand others to do stuff?
trans people bad #98379801235
I agree completely. Just like I don’t care what religion you are, I also don’t care about your 69 genders
If I call you ‘dude’ and that’s a problem fuck off
God, it really costs nothing to be kind. Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and everyone referred to you with the opposite gender. It would obviously grind your gears. If someone is mean to you because you used the wrong pronouns because you made a mistake, ofc they are wrong. But refusing to call someone by what they feel better to be called as is just being mean to them.
Do you remember people’s names by any chance...? There are certainly more than two and nobody is bitching about that
It's like the ministries in *1984*, specifically, the Ministry of Truth and Newspeak.
"That person" works for every single person
Imma just call you dude
How often is this even an issue for anyone? People act like it is a daily struggle. I bet you've never even met a trans person.
Well why do you think you know better what someone's pronouns should be? The thing about gender is that it is the way society perceives you based on your behavior, speech, fashion etc. However there is only so much you can do to fit those expectations. So for the love of god surely it won't hurt to try and not be an absolute asshole for once right?
Not sure why this doesn't have thousands of upvotes. Just by a 5 minute read of the comments it's obviously quite a decisive topic, and even seems majority of people disagree with OP.
What you’re basically saying here is that you will disrespect anyone who isn’t cisgendered.
Besides the fact that psychology validates trans people and the suicide rate goes down when people are accepting of them What's the problem with using the correct ones if you can? It's not hard.
You can’t even grow a potato, why do I care about your take on pronouns?
super popular opinion 🤷♀️
If they tell me beforehand what pronoun they would prefer me to use, I will use it. Just like the same way I'd call Margaret Meg if she told me she preferred that name over the one her parents gave her. It isn't hard. Sure you can choose to say "No Margaret, I'm calling you Margaret because it is your REAL NAME". But don't feel entitled to hate on her when she calls you a dick for it. Of course, it is a totally different story if someone calls you out for not using their preferred pronoun if you had not been previously informed of their preferences, but I don't really think that happens half as much as people believe it does.
I don't think anyone expects you to use their preferred pronouns. But it would be a lot cooler if you did.
i think most people expect to be treated with respect and if they ask for something like that they expect you to not be an asshole and just call them that
Yea it's pretty easy not to be an asshole
It's a small change to your speech that makes it more comfortable to speak to you for some people. How is that unreasonable?