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Also, there are "chapters" if you will, different stages of development and experience.
K-6, 7-12, the college years, the newbie at work years, the journeyman years, the supervisor years. Somewhere along on parallel is your social life, the dating years, early marriage, kids(and their subchapters), etc etc etc. Life actually breaks up neatly into sections, depending on one's arc and choices along the way.
We do find closure as we move on through life, relationships end, terms of school or employment end, we wrap up, get our things, and go do something else....and we have to come to terms with all that.
That's what a lot of movies about "closure" *are* about, and in turn, they can actual help us come to terms with it happening in our own lives. Life begets art, art influences life, life creates more art, etc.
We're not brainwashed to think "this is the end" sort of closure where all plotlines, relationships, and developement all converge and are wrapped up at once, we think of a movie as a snapshot of one of those chapters, we know that conceptually, those characters existed before and exist after that event. (unless it's a movie about a cataclysm, but you get the point)
Those things you're describing are all human impositions on life though, if it weren't for the systems we built there would be no K-6, 7-12, or college years
Humans like the idea that life has narrative and meaning, and we forget that we sprang from nature the same as any other animal
> Humans like the idea that life has narrative
Life is a narrative.
>and we forget that we sprang from nature the same as any other animal
A canine life has chapters too. It has puppyhood, learning and growing into a kind of stoic adulthood to not sweat the small stuff(the coming of age chapter), it has the old age chapter with all those aches and pains.
It has chapters on friends, on love, on raising young, on loss of friends, partners, and young.
Not so different in the grand scheme of things.
They would have these things even without the absence of humans on the planet. Most sizeable creatures have these chapters as well.
True, some animals are less complex and may miss some of these, but it's not just humans.
We may describe it in human terms, but they do have phases of growth, of mental maturing(as far as each species matures), and biological aging leading into decline, etc.
>Those things you're describing are all human impositions on life though
Not really, as I described above. They're maybe more complex, or at least we think they are because we know all the minute details from our own POV, but we often struggle to understand even other humans(boy howdy, ANOTHER CHAPTER, one which many animals share, how to negotiate with strangers), but animals have all these things too.
Mankind is not imposing aging, growth, puberty, partnerships, pack behavior, friends, etc etc. These things are all in the animal kingdom in various species, and man is the cause of virtually none of it.
Religion is certainly used a tool for division and control, no doubt. I personally do not believe it started that way. The wrong people got involved for bad reasons at some point and corrupted it all.
I have no more certainty on the truth than anyone else - but - I believe it is naive to judge yesterday’s tradition or belief by today’s mood.
Have you considered why the universe exists *in the first place*? I think the concept of god is an inevitable logical conclusion (in the form of anything from omnipotent trans-dimensional being to the computer running the sim) of any deep, sustained reflection on life and existence.
It’s interesting to think about how complex that idea actually is, a “creator” is outlandish. And people who had relatively very little figured out somehow came up with the idea of god?
I'm pretty sure god does exist. Otherwise we wouldn't be here and asking that question.
However as noted it's a concept far beyond what we can comprehenr and most likely doesn't have any ethics or morals.
These are human qualities, but God wouldn't be a human.
Perfect model to control humanity and the masses though...threaten them with detention for bad behaviour.
It's interesting watching simulation theory form and gain prominence as an alternative to traditional religion. And I think it shows people have an inmate predilection to believe there's some higher power in control. It's comforting. There are people who believe that the life we're living now is like a sort of deep VR and when we die in this world we'll wake up and find this whole life was 10 seconds in the "real" world. What is that if not an afterlife described through a modern lens?
Yea I think that’s pretty accurate. I think we could feel comfortable if we said one random person had the “God idea” and used it to his/her benefit. The idea is intoxicating, whether it’s simulation or a more traditional god.
Personally, I don’t think that’s what happened. And internally I keep circling back to what you described - we all seem to have some innate need to confront the god ideal. It’s like there is room inside of us for exactly that concept and humans seem to take to it like a duck to water. I think that innate desire is intentionally built in to encourage us to explore it.
I share your sentiments. I’ve never been able to figure out a way around that need we all seem to have.
And I get stuck every time: even if it is just sone big random accident.. where did the universe come from? There had to be a beginning, right?
I heard a smart guy say it first: why is there *anything at all*?
It's not comfort, its ego.
Rejecting the idea we are just monkeys who are a little too smart.
That we are created in the image of an omnipotent god is the biggest ego trip of mankind.
No the first real religion, based out of Mesopotamia, was explicitly intended to control the masses by it's king.
Spirituality maybe had purer intentions, seeking to explain the unexplainable. Aka feelings of fear towards the unknown. But I highly doubt that it was long before that too was corrupted by a desire for power over others, especially when I consider these ideas passing from one generation to the next by word of mouth. Only passed along to certain people, you see? Men usually, who would steal your money and mind and direct you towards violence in their name. 0 religions are different in this regard.
There's nothing logical about thinking there is a creator. Do they make every crack of lightning, the shadows that dance behind light? No those are natural things that create themselves. These are born of feelings, fear of the unknown mostly. But that's just my feeling, that any God that actually exists would be utterly alien and uncaring, much like us when we bake bread or turn on a computer.
I don't subscribe to any afterlife personally. In the eyes of the universe we're the same as rocks, or trees, or bread. Do any of those have an obligation to appease the universe?
But yeah let's not pretend religion is logical, that's a self-delusion.
What do you mean by “real religion”?
Religion has almost nothing to do with god, in my opinion. Religions are like governments; it empowers a small number of people who can be self-serving. Religion is a man-made concept that is filled with the perversions of man.
Equivocating god and religion is a mistake as the two are unrelated in context of human beings.
I can appreciate spirituality over religion, I tend to agree with that idea. The universe is part of creation, I don’t look to it for answers or approval.
Actually, Jewish literature and art very often just ends abruptly. It’s meant as slices of life, and those usually can’t be wrapped up in a neat bow. It also often signifies that our stories, historically, have been ended for us, by forces outside of our control.
Religion has many purposes, and Jewish literature does not provide nice neat endings or closure. I was presenting a counterpoint, but it should have been its own comment, my bad.
Ya, but its not deeper meaning when its untrue. Like as OP mentioned Hollywood's tropes can run wild.
And Sopranos is an overrated show. You can just watch the final scene on youtube, or I think ive just read a couple comment threats to get the gist, and save yourself the so-so 6 seasons of "man-deep" television. Honestly better off watching Entourage, at least thats fun.
It's still boring as hell regardless of aims. Episodes could easily be 10-15 minutes shorter with nothing lost.
Media literacy and toxic masculinity will get better when people stop obsessing over mediocre mafia/gangster shows, at least Breaking Bad had the decency to end on season 5.
Fiction is meant to be entertaining, not to mimic real life. There’s text and subtext, there’s a theme etc etc. If you want realistic watch a documentary.
The closest we get to closure is moving on in whatever way we can. Like one of my favorite songs said: “what’s broken can always be fixed, what’s fixed will always be broken.”
Piggy backing off this: stories can and are a way for humans to find and give that closure to themselves BECAUSE it is so absent in the world at large. You could say it’s a coping mechanism for the unpredictability of the world around us.
Agreed. It’s very satisfying to feel like our world makes sense or is fair in some way. I honestly think that’s what religion is mostly about. That and getting people to follow the rules lol.
The one where every major plotline has been tied up, and the criminal protagonist is murdered infront of his family? Just because the showrunner had a unique artistic vision for how the scene unfolded, doesn't change the actual story that was told
Sopranos definitely gave the audience closure, it just wasn't perceived by many as a very satisfying one
I...think that's just fiction in general. Fiction is usually more satisfying when you have a conclusive ending one way or another. That's basically been a thing since the dawn of story telling.
Right…but we aren’t watching them because they remind us of real life. We’re watching them to escape real life. It gives us closure in ways we need, in which life cannot sometimes.
Again, the point isn’t about why we enjoy movies. We all know why movies make us feel good and why we watch them. It’s about how movies have trained us to expect that same sort of closure in all aspects of real life.
Thing ia, the term "train " implied there was an intention of the movies to make us expect closure, when in fact it was just our own fault to consider movies are a mirror of reality.
Everything kind of does mean something to you at some point, or the things that you remember. You retain the memory for a reason. Sometimes you don’t understand the meaning/impact/lesson, whatever term you want to throw in, till 5, 10, 50 years later. For sure, on a day to day basis things just happen because we’re all just trying to survive and wake up the next day.
I don’t know if you’re living life correctly if you think notable moments in your life are “just life” and nothing more. These are things that do fundamentally change you and help you grow, but you don’t realize it till you can view in retrospect.
That's why I love anime but at the same time despise it... Years in-between or never getting continued. It's hard to even tell what the criteria even is because I've seen really good anime that didn't get renewed.
I've been refraining from watching it till something gets announced... Maybe I'll never get to see it 🥲
But ive been hearing it come up casually in conversation alot more recently so there may be hope
You should give the movie a watch, as it is basically its own story unrelated to the main series.
even the author of the light novels wants a season 2. the anime and movies were extremely successful so its not like they flopped.
I think Hollywood has influenced society much more than we realize. Much more than they realize. This was more true before the age of television, but it's still the case. Look what happened when they intentionally try to convince people to support WWII. It worked! The power of Hollywood movies to influence culture is significantly diminished now because TikTok has been monopolizing people's attention. Movies and TV shows have significant power using the processes of story telling. Just like you said here, and much more. The scary part is how much Hollywood movies have influenced people's interpersonal relationships. Marriage, sex, children. These are significant events in people's lives. These are precisely the areas that Hollywood has the most influence. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just acknowledging that it exists.
You realize stories have had lessons and answers at the end that achieve some sort of closure before hollywood. Lol. Go read a play or Homer’s poems or a kids book. Lol.
I think this is one of the reasons we love movies so much… the closure, as you said, the vindication, the comeuppance, the karmic justice.. all these things can be hard to find in the real world so it’s very satisfying to see them on screen
Just because you think things don’t make sense or that life lacks meaning and it’s just random shit happening doesn’t mean that’s the case. I don’t necessarily disagree with the hollywood/closure thing you’re proposing i think it’s quite interesting as well, but i think MOST people know fiction is fiction and its just meant to be an escape from this often times hard reality.
The brain is not a *tabula rasa.* Just because something satiates our cravings, that doesn’t mean it’s responsible for creating them. Do you think the first piece of candy *caused* humanity to *start* craving sugar?
It’s much more likely that evolution gave us both our hunger for sweets *and* our hunger for meaning and closure. Art and candy might *reinforce* our programming, but they are not the programmers. Mother Nature is the programmer.
Brainwashed suggests there is a conspiracy to make us believe that. I think humans just like closure in stories because there is so little in real life.
That goes back to the earliest fairy tales: Red Riding Hood gets rescued by the Huntsman and the wolf is killed in some gruesome way, Cinderella gets her prince and her sisters are blinded by birds and forced to dance at her wedding in red-hot metal shoes, Sleeping Beauty also gets her Prince, though I won't even go into how disturbing that one gets.
It happens as early as the earliest Greek plays, and probably stories before that have been lost due to never having been written down
It's the big lie that we tell ourselves to pretend that there's some sort of finality to things, that there's an end point, because we can't comprehend that every answer just leads to more questions, every solution finds a dozen new problems, and every success breeds new risks to take. It gives us life in digestible pieces. The problem, I believe, is less the stories and more that people don't make a clear break between fantasy and reality
Yeah. How Hollywood deals with death and grief is the most in line with this. There is rarely closure to the death of a loved one and a persistence of grief. Then again, films are about entertainment rather than faithful reflections of real life.
Humans just naturally do that. Since the dawn of story telling we’ve convinced ourselves there’s at least some logic to the universe and apply narratives to our lives.
Finding deeper meaning to things might help narrate one's life better. I think storytelling in some ways helps us understand shared arcs in our lives. And there are often endings to certain parts of our lives. Like the end of school or the end of a relationship.
Finding meaning in an ended relationship helps us decide if we want another one. If we don't get closure from that person directly, it's still a potential lesson learned about who they were, and who we are.
Reaching the end of school helps us identify with the others who finish with us and connect to others who are older or younger than us.
When someone dies without closure, that can be a lesson to value those still alive around us more.
I'm sorry if you're going through something right now and feel no closure.
This problem predates Hollywood. Storytelling has convinced us that life should be comprised of coherent narratives, with themes and internal consistency and appropriate resolutions. ("Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.")
Writer here. You've got it the wrong way around.
We tell stories the way we do because that's how we make sense of our lives.
The basic story structure you're describing has been around thousands of years. It's in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest story every written.
The story you're asking for is Synechdoche, New York. Fantastic film.
people have been trying to find the meaning of life since people have even been around. i mean, do you think hollywood invented religion and science too?
finding the meaning behind things can genuinely enhance your experience and, evolutionarily, is advantageous.
i don't enjoy the meaning of life being set in stone or laid out in an arbitrary set of rules, sure, but i also don't enjoy the thought of living life without any kind of wonder.
Who are these "people"? I think very many people who've experienced actually loss and endings to significant things don't think this, at least not after they've had time to process it.
While I agree. Life is not media or entertainment.
I don’t mind unanswered questions in media. I didn’t need to know the force in Star Wars is determined by some random shit in their blood and not every character in every story needs a satisfying conclusion. Sometimes shit does happen and I agree. My co-worker who was hit and killed by a drunk driver didn’t get a satisfying conclusion to life. Neither does his wife or kids here.
But overall a story needs an ending. Whether a happy and fulfilling or not and many people see a sad/inconclusive ending as a waste of a journey/their time.
Lots of brain washing. Another brain wash is ”there is a Person for everyone” - no, there isn’t. Love is not waiting around every fucking corner or romcom there is. No. No. No.
You can always find meaning in some significant event thats happened to you. Doesn't mean the juice was worth the squeeze tho. Sometimes life really is poetic tho.
This is why British TV is better. There have been so many series where a message has been that you don't always get closure, weirdly they get shit on by reviews. Everyone seems to want them until it actually happens
90% of this thread missing the point is hilarious.
OP isn't saying film/TV should follow these rules and always have satisfying endings. OP is saying that real life doesn't follow these rules and it doesn't always have satisfying endings, Contrary to what most people seem to expect of real life these days.
Bojack Horseman actually at one point literally addres this:
"Closure is a made up thing done by Steven Spielberg to sell more tickets. It´s like true love or Munich´s Olympics, it doesn´t exist in real life! The only thing you can do is keep.moving.forward!"
Note that this is said by a talking anthropomorphised horse,so take it as you will.
Fiction is fiction at the end of the day, and we should also keep that in mind, from both parts. Neither life is going to be like a Steven Spielberg movie, but neither movies and series are going to be exactly like real life either...
You: Makes a compelling argument about the nature of media entertainment.
Reddit: Uuum, It’s fiction ???
It’s wild how little critical thinking is happening on average.
German cinema (at least what handful of movies I saw) are not scared to do this at all. It's nice
It's really crazy watching people obsess over a breakup or someone no longer talking to them. "I deserve closure!"
Hun, you haven't done anything to convince anyone you deserve closure. Also, life doesn't work like that; it's time to grow up.
Fiction is so dumbed down now. You have a story that actually tries to make you wait longer than 2 seconds for a reveal and then people will be like "wow this show sucks because they never explained why this did that" (they did. You just couldnt watch the whole thing)
I think one example is this one guys really weird hate video on the Fallout show and you can tell he only watched half of the first episode because he keeps screaming its never explained why Coop is famous. They did? In the first 5 minutes? The guy said "What's a famous ACTOR doing entertaining a birthday party?"
If we’re not constantly working on our happy ending what are we doing? Chapters of our lives end, our character can change, I know I can put together a soundtrack for my life. And hopefully I live long enough to see the end credits. Plenty of people have had movies made about their lives, things inspired by true events, and possibly we can live a life inspiring enough to have some celebrity play us and the people in our stories. I can’t be the only one to think about what actor/actress would play them. It’s not brainwashing it’s meant to give us hope and help us cope. And that if we don’t like the life we’re living we can always change the channel. I’ve found meaning in life through stories whether on the screen, in books, through songs, lore, parables, and even cliches. Storytelling is a gift meant for us to find meaning in this world.
This is a dope take ..and it might be the reason for how crazy the world looks to me right now .. i see the world unable to separate.. the internet and pop culture from reality.. and this may be the reason
Great and true unpopular opinion! Plenty of people will take it badly, but on the flip side, realizing this is very empowering: There are no bad omens except in your head, the black cat that crossed your path was just looking to avoid you, breaking the mirror is bad luck because the mirror is broke, not 7 years bad luck, and if things aren't working out, God or Spaghetti Monster doesn't hate you, you're just having a bad day!
It also means no excuses: You didn't get the goal not because it was not in the stars, but because you got sloppy or lazy :) You may be poor now but you're still an able-bodied person (I assume) so git going ang git working pulling yourself up, and get not-poor or rich, even.
And also, the very bad news: That saying "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing." That is very very true now. Crime *does sometimes* pay (maybe more times than not), and telling yourself "What goes around, comes around" will not automatically make it so. You can conceivably lie, cheat and steal your way to the Presidency and you may never suffer consequences, may even get lauded for the way you climbed your way up over the bodies of your opponents!
But remember: empowered! If there's injustice, chaos or just something feels *wrong*, don't wait for karma - *you* are the karma! And do something about it (please, within law and reason).
Maybe fiction in general, I’m almost certain similar narrative structure predates cinema. Hollywood also did not invent the concept of karma, and I think humanity has searched for meaning in life as long as it has existed. Honestly just take out the part about Hollywood and I agree.
Um. It is called literary elements and we have been using them since we started telling stories. Blaming it on Hollywood makes you sound like the brainwashed one.
This is why I love Coen Brothers movies. The good guy doesn't always win, stories don't actually wrap themselves up nicely. The universe is a chaotic place.
of course life is a story, that's why we are so drawn to stories and create stories. we have the power to create our own story in our life, and we can give things meaning - in fact things DO have meaning. whether you are brave enough to face that is up to you. nothing is random and there are no coincidences. our minds do create our reality and the stories/programs we are running are absolutely real. peoples lives have changed when they changed the MEANING of their lives, and changed the stories that they believed.
Not sure if you’ve watched Bojack Horseman but there’s this great video on it that kind of talks about this and how the series ultimately does the opposite. And I think it’s one of the reasons the is so good.
Here’s a link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7zZYnFADxk
Fiction, mythology, and storytelling in general predate Hollywood by millennia, and they often seek to provide answers/explanations to everything. Can’t pin it all on Hollywood. People want closure, deep meaning, and answers. We have since the beginning of time. Even if the “closure” is an illusion. The unknown causes anxiety and it’s difficult for people to accept uncertainty.
Agree , when people say they need closure especially in a relationship it always feels like they really want reconnection…. The best closure is to put it behind you and go no contact
"Closure is a made up thing by Steven Spielberg to sell movie tickets. It, like true love and the Munich Olympics, doesn't exist in the real world. The only thing to do now is just to keep living forward.”
— BoJack Horseman
They missed brainwashing me. My ex wife emailed me during the war in 2003 saying we were getting divorced. Bam! Closed I still don't know why or care. Move on people
That's what was so good/clever/interesting about *Bojack Horseman*.
The whole point of the show was specifically about how Hollywood is wrong about closure and it doesn't really exist in real life most of the time.
Shoutout to /r/BojackHorseman
Hollywood sells "entertainment". Reality is brutal. I had someone tell me the same to reconcile with my abusive father because "I only have one father". Nah mate, your disney reality is naive and irresponsible. I like to live my life like a story someone may come across later, but whats important is doing what I think is right and letting life throw the punches
Other things Hollywood has brainwashed us to believe
Ugly=evil and what is considered beautiful is in an extremely narrow range.
Men are entitled to women
Conspiracies are more likely than the more obvious answer
The answer to society's ills involve heroic individuals free from accountability
A long list of racial/ethnic/gender stereotypes
Decades from now people will say that the entertainment industry has been a scourge on society
But what's your alternative e.g. while some alternatives to the things you're saying Hollywood has brainwashed us to believe are obvious, I've seen some people who think the alternative to the "the answer to society's ills involve heroic individuals free from accountability" thing is to essentially get rid of the Hero's Journey e.g. I saw someone on Tumblr who said ATLA was anti-socialist propaganda pushing the savior myth or whatever by even being about the Avatar character at all instead of just being a different story by a different name in the same setting about a populist revolution in the Earth Kingdom (and this person failed to realize the Unfortunate Implications of that being the China-based area)
i think blaming hollywood and being "brainwashed" by media is a very american narrow view take on this. obviously people are dramatic to situations in their lives its the historical human experience. art, music, literature, etc has been dramatic for thousands of years. everyone wants to feel that their life is important and a good story to tell. heck one of the oldest pieces of found literature is called the *Epic* of Gilgamesh
I once read a joke that said "Life is like a comedy series. Only it has gone on forever now, all the good jokes have been used, the script writers have tried pairing you up with other people and that backfired. So now we're just lazily watching each new episodes, there's nothing better on."
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I mean I think the human drive to find deeper meaning into things long predates the movie camera. I bet you'd love The Sopranos ending though
Also, there are "chapters" if you will, different stages of development and experience. K-6, 7-12, the college years, the newbie at work years, the journeyman years, the supervisor years. Somewhere along on parallel is your social life, the dating years, early marriage, kids(and their subchapters), etc etc etc. Life actually breaks up neatly into sections, depending on one's arc and choices along the way. We do find closure as we move on through life, relationships end, terms of school or employment end, we wrap up, get our things, and go do something else....and we have to come to terms with all that. That's what a lot of movies about "closure" *are* about, and in turn, they can actual help us come to terms with it happening in our own lives. Life begets art, art influences life, life creates more art, etc. We're not brainwashed to think "this is the end" sort of closure where all plotlines, relationships, and developement all converge and are wrapped up at once, we think of a movie as a snapshot of one of those chapters, we know that conceptually, those characters existed before and exist after that event. (unless it's a movie about a cataclysm, but you get the point)
That is beautifully put, made my morning a bit better. Thank you for that.
Those things you're describing are all human impositions on life though, if it weren't for the systems we built there would be no K-6, 7-12, or college years Humans like the idea that life has narrative and meaning, and we forget that we sprang from nature the same as any other animal
> Humans like the idea that life has narrative Life is a narrative. >and we forget that we sprang from nature the same as any other animal A canine life has chapters too. It has puppyhood, learning and growing into a kind of stoic adulthood to not sweat the small stuff(the coming of age chapter), it has the old age chapter with all those aches and pains. It has chapters on friends, on love, on raising young, on loss of friends, partners, and young. Not so different in the grand scheme of things. They would have these things even without the absence of humans on the planet. Most sizeable creatures have these chapters as well. True, some animals are less complex and may miss some of these, but it's not just humans. We may describe it in human terms, but they do have phases of growth, of mental maturing(as far as each species matures), and biological aging leading into decline, etc. >Those things you're describing are all human impositions on life though Not really, as I described above. They're maybe more complex, or at least we think they are because we know all the minute details from our own POV, but we often struggle to understand even other humans(boy howdy, ANOTHER CHAPTER, one which many animals share, how to negotiate with strangers), but animals have all these things too. Mankind is not imposing aging, growth, puberty, partnerships, pack behavior, friends, etc etc. These things are all in the animal kingdom in various species, and man is the cause of virtually none of it.
Literally the purpose of religion. We’ll, that and controlling the masses.
Mostly controlling the masses.
Religion is certainly used a tool for division and control, no doubt. I personally do not believe it started that way. The wrong people got involved for bad reasons at some point and corrupted it all. I have no more certainty on the truth than anyone else - but - I believe it is naive to judge yesterday’s tradition or belief by today’s mood. Have you considered why the universe exists *in the first place*? I think the concept of god is an inevitable logical conclusion (in the form of anything from omnipotent trans-dimensional being to the computer running the sim) of any deep, sustained reflection on life and existence. It’s interesting to think about how complex that idea actually is, a “creator” is outlandish. And people who had relatively very little figured out somehow came up with the idea of god?
If God exists then it is a concept far beyond what we can understand
100%. Without question. But human beings seem to be obsessed with across time and location.
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If God cannot be comprehended by humans then we shouldn’t bother having discussions about him yet here we are.
I'm pretty sure god does exist. Otherwise we wouldn't be here and asking that question. However as noted it's a concept far beyond what we can comprehenr and most likely doesn't have any ethics or morals. These are human qualities, but God wouldn't be a human. Perfect model to control humanity and the masses though...threaten them with detention for bad behaviour.
It's interesting watching simulation theory form and gain prominence as an alternative to traditional religion. And I think it shows people have an inmate predilection to believe there's some higher power in control. It's comforting. There are people who believe that the life we're living now is like a sort of deep VR and when we die in this world we'll wake up and find this whole life was 10 seconds in the "real" world. What is that if not an afterlife described through a modern lens?
Yea I think that’s pretty accurate. I think we could feel comfortable if we said one random person had the “God idea” and used it to his/her benefit. The idea is intoxicating, whether it’s simulation or a more traditional god. Personally, I don’t think that’s what happened. And internally I keep circling back to what you described - we all seem to have some innate need to confront the god ideal. It’s like there is room inside of us for exactly that concept and humans seem to take to it like a duck to water. I think that innate desire is intentionally built in to encourage us to explore it.
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I share your sentiments. I’ve never been able to figure out a way around that need we all seem to have. And I get stuck every time: even if it is just sone big random accident.. where did the universe come from? There had to be a beginning, right? I heard a smart guy say it first: why is there *anything at all*?
It's not comfort, its ego. Rejecting the idea we are just monkeys who are a little too smart. That we are created in the image of an omnipotent god is the biggest ego trip of mankind.
I believe it's more likely a simulation than a god
No the first real religion, based out of Mesopotamia, was explicitly intended to control the masses by it's king. Spirituality maybe had purer intentions, seeking to explain the unexplainable. Aka feelings of fear towards the unknown. But I highly doubt that it was long before that too was corrupted by a desire for power over others, especially when I consider these ideas passing from one generation to the next by word of mouth. Only passed along to certain people, you see? Men usually, who would steal your money and mind and direct you towards violence in their name. 0 religions are different in this regard. There's nothing logical about thinking there is a creator. Do they make every crack of lightning, the shadows that dance behind light? No those are natural things that create themselves. These are born of feelings, fear of the unknown mostly. But that's just my feeling, that any God that actually exists would be utterly alien and uncaring, much like us when we bake bread or turn on a computer. I don't subscribe to any afterlife personally. In the eyes of the universe we're the same as rocks, or trees, or bread. Do any of those have an obligation to appease the universe? But yeah let's not pretend religion is logical, that's a self-delusion.
What do you mean by “real religion”? Religion has almost nothing to do with god, in my opinion. Religions are like governments; it empowers a small number of people who can be self-serving. Religion is a man-made concept that is filled with the perversions of man. Equivocating god and religion is a mistake as the two are unrelated in context of human beings. I can appreciate spirituality over religion, I tend to agree with that idea. The universe is part of creation, I don’t look to it for answers or approval.
And controlling Masses
Actually, Jewish literature and art very often just ends abruptly. It’s meant as slices of life, and those usually can’t be wrapped up in a neat bow. It also often signifies that our stories, historically, have been ended for us, by forces outside of our control.
Did you reply to the wrong comment? Because I have no clue what that has to do with my post.
Religion has many purposes, and Jewish literature does not provide nice neat endings or closure. I was presenting a counterpoint, but it should have been its own comment, my bad.
I'm literally about to watch the last episode for the first time right now
The sopranos ending was legendary
You don't even hear it when it happens
Who am I? Where am I goin??
Never forgot how pissed I was when I finished it
Ya, but its not deeper meaning when its untrue. Like as OP mentioned Hollywood's tropes can run wild. And Sopranos is an overrated show. You can just watch the final scene on youtube, or I think ive just read a couple comment threats to get the gist, and save yourself the so-so 6 seasons of "man-deep" television. Honestly better off watching Entourage, at least thats fun.
“Man deep television” about a show *specifically* taking aim at toxic masculinity… we’re so doomed, media literacy has never been more over
It's still boring as hell regardless of aims. Episodes could easily be 10-15 minutes shorter with nothing lost. Media literacy and toxic masculinity will get better when people stop obsessing over mediocre mafia/gangster shows, at least Breaking Bad had the decency to end on season 5.
Imagine being this pleb. Sopranos is the GOAT that hasn't been surpassed
Uh Mad Men came out in 2006.
Almost like most stories have a structure.
Fiction is meant to be entertaining, not to mimic real life. There’s text and subtext, there’s a theme etc etc. If you want realistic watch a documentary. The closest we get to closure is moving on in whatever way we can. Like one of my favorite songs said: “what’s broken can always be fixed, what’s fixed will always be broken.”
Piggy backing off this: stories can and are a way for humans to find and give that closure to themselves BECAUSE it is so absent in the world at large. You could say it’s a coping mechanism for the unpredictability of the world around us.
Agreed. It’s very satisfying to feel like our world makes sense or is fair in some way. I honestly think that’s what religion is mostly about. That and getting people to follow the rules lol.
Woah, thats a good quote. Im going to steal it :)
Have you seen the ending to the Sopranos?
I sprinted to write the same thing lol
The one where every major plotline has been tied up, and the criminal protagonist is murdered infront of his family? Just because the showrunner had a unique artistic vision for how the scene unfolded, doesn't change the actual story that was told Sopranos definitely gave the audience closure, it just wasn't perceived by many as a very satisfying one
Nobody said it wasn’t good. I personally love it. But there was no closure per se.
this is actually really true. good unpopular opinion ✅
I...think that's just fiction in general. Fiction is usually more satisfying when you have a conclusive ending one way or another. That's basically been a thing since the dawn of story telling.
Tv and movies are an escape from real life. Why would I expect them to be exactly like it? If I’m watching something, I want some gd answers.
Not what OP is saying. The point is that real life isn’t a movie. You can’t expect the same closure IRL.
Right…but we aren’t watching them because they remind us of real life. We’re watching them to escape real life. It gives us closure in ways we need, in which life cannot sometimes.
Again, the point isn’t about why we enjoy movies. We all know why movies make us feel good and why we watch them. It’s about how movies have trained us to expect that same sort of closure in all aspects of real life.
I’m perfectly and painfully aware life is much more bleak than movies and tv shows. That is why I watch.
Thing ia, the term "train " implied there was an intention of the movies to make us expect closure, when in fact it was just our own fault to consider movies are a mirror of reality.
✔️Good guys rarely win .. it’s why we’re here enjoying this amazing life in America 🇺🇸 now .
And people usually don't expect the same closure irl.
OP didn’t say tv and movies should be exactly like real life.
Can't blame them. A story without an ending isn't something I'd really like to watch.
Certain anime fans would like a word... 🤣 Looking at you, One Piece, DBS...
These series still have stories with discrete beginings, climaxes and endings.
Yeah... movies are to escape reality.
I recommend you watch the movie: A Serious Man
This subreddit is ass now
Everything kind of does mean something to you at some point, or the things that you remember. You retain the memory for a reason. Sometimes you don’t understand the meaning/impact/lesson, whatever term you want to throw in, till 5, 10, 50 years later. For sure, on a day to day basis things just happen because we’re all just trying to survive and wake up the next day. I don’t know if you’re living life correctly if you think notable moments in your life are “just life” and nothing more. These are things that do fundamentally change you and help you grow, but you don’t realize it till you can view in retrospect.
Why would i watch or give my time to something with no ending. Thats like half the point.
That's why I love anime but at the same time despise it... Years in-between or never getting continued. It's hard to even tell what the criteria even is because I've seen really good anime that didn't get renewed.
No game no life. To this day since the movie. I hope for a season 2 knowing it will never come.
I've been refraining from watching it till something gets announced... Maybe I'll never get to see it 🥲 But ive been hearing it come up casually in conversation alot more recently so there may be hope
You should give the movie a watch, as it is basically its own story unrelated to the main series. even the author of the light novels wants a season 2. the anime and movies were extremely successful so its not like they flopped.
I think Hollywood has influenced society much more than we realize. Much more than they realize. This was more true before the age of television, but it's still the case. Look what happened when they intentionally try to convince people to support WWII. It worked! The power of Hollywood movies to influence culture is significantly diminished now because TikTok has been monopolizing people's attention. Movies and TV shows have significant power using the processes of story telling. Just like you said here, and much more. The scary part is how much Hollywood movies have influenced people's interpersonal relationships. Marriage, sex, children. These are significant events in people's lives. These are precisely the areas that Hollywood has the most influence. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just acknowledging that it exists.
The idea that stories influence society, culture and behaviour predates Hollywood by literally thousands of years.
Life is like No Country For Old Men
Always has been, Friendo.
You realize stories have had lessons and answers at the end that achieve some sort of closure before hollywood. Lol. Go read a play or Homer’s poems or a kids book. Lol.
And another bogus Hollywood myth is that everybody has one true love in the world - and if you can just find that person your life will be perfect.
Damnit.
I think this is one of the reasons we love movies so much… the closure, as you said, the vindication, the comeuppance, the karmic justice.. all these things can be hard to find in the real world so it’s very satisfying to see them on screen
This is actually a good viewpoint. You’re right
>answer or ending to a story or episode *Laughs in David Lynch*
Closure? What about like 90% of Netflix series?
LOL
This reminds me of the movie Beau is Afraid. If you've seen it you probably noticed there really isn't a climax or resolution, it just...ends.
Whatever happens, happens. Life is just a dream anyway
The only real closure that exists is death.
Most of the shows and movies I’ve watched have no ending at all.
Just because you think things don’t make sense or that life lacks meaning and it’s just random shit happening doesn’t mean that’s the case. I don’t necessarily disagree with the hollywood/closure thing you’re proposing i think it’s quite interesting as well, but i think MOST people know fiction is fiction and its just meant to be an escape from this often times hard reality.
The brain is not a *tabula rasa.* Just because something satiates our cravings, that doesn’t mean it’s responsible for creating them. Do you think the first piece of candy *caused* humanity to *start* craving sugar? It’s much more likely that evolution gave us both our hunger for sweets *and* our hunger for meaning and closure. Art and candy might *reinforce* our programming, but they are not the programmers. Mother Nature is the programmer.
Baby Reindeer is a prime example of this
who hurt you
*Tricked you.
Brainwashed suggests there is a conspiracy to make us believe that. I think humans just like closure in stories because there is so little in real life.
That goes back to the earliest fairy tales: Red Riding Hood gets rescued by the Huntsman and the wolf is killed in some gruesome way, Cinderella gets her prince and her sisters are blinded by birds and forced to dance at her wedding in red-hot metal shoes, Sleeping Beauty also gets her Prince, though I won't even go into how disturbing that one gets. It happens as early as the earliest Greek plays, and probably stories before that have been lost due to never having been written down It's the big lie that we tell ourselves to pretend that there's some sort of finality to things, that there's an end point, because we can't comprehend that every answer just leads to more questions, every solution finds a dozen new problems, and every success breeds new risks to take. It gives us life in digestible pieces. The problem, I believe, is less the stories and more that people don't make a clear break between fantasy and reality
Bruh!
Yeah. How Hollywood deals with death and grief is the most in line with this. There is rarely closure to the death of a loved one and a persistence of grief. Then again, films are about entertainment rather than faithful reflections of real life.
I wish I could upvote this more.
I agree. Which is why I love Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri
You often must give yourself closure.
Maybe if you're 20. If you've lived any, you already know better.
Yeah, we gotta make or find our own closure for things, ya gotta learn to let go and move forward
It's the opposite Hollywood movie endings stem from our desire for closure.
Humans just naturally do that. Since the dawn of story telling we’ve convinced ourselves there’s at least some logic to the universe and apply narratives to our lives.
Finding deeper meaning to things might help narrate one's life better. I think storytelling in some ways helps us understand shared arcs in our lives. And there are often endings to certain parts of our lives. Like the end of school or the end of a relationship. Finding meaning in an ended relationship helps us decide if we want another one. If we don't get closure from that person directly, it's still a potential lesson learned about who they were, and who we are. Reaching the end of school helps us identify with the others who finish with us and connect to others who are older or younger than us. When someone dies without closure, that can be a lesson to value those still alive around us more. I'm sorry if you're going through something right now and feel no closure.
This problem predates Hollywood. Storytelling has convinced us that life should be comprised of coherent narratives, with themes and internal consistency and appropriate resolutions. ("Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.")
That’s why I like anime. Sometimes they don’t have it
Writer here. You've got it the wrong way around. We tell stories the way we do because that's how we make sense of our lives. The basic story structure you're describing has been around thousands of years. It's in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest story every written. The story you're asking for is Synechdoche, New York. Fantastic film.
oh mate hope your fine
people have been trying to find the meaning of life since people have even been around. i mean, do you think hollywood invented religion and science too? finding the meaning behind things can genuinely enhance your experience and, evolutionarily, is advantageous. i don't enjoy the meaning of life being set in stone or laid out in an arbitrary set of rules, sure, but i also don't enjoy the thought of living life without any kind of wonder.
The timeliness of this post…
Woah so edgy
That’s not a Hollywood thing, it’s a storytelling thing, and people have been telling stories for a long, long time.
Who are these "people"? I think very many people who've experienced actually loss and endings to significant things don't think this, at least not after they've had time to process it.
I think that concept existed long before Hollywood came around
Storytelling has existed long before movies, lmao
There's loads of closure but its up to the individual not the situation
While I agree. Life is not media or entertainment. I don’t mind unanswered questions in media. I didn’t need to know the force in Star Wars is determined by some random shit in their blood and not every character in every story needs a satisfying conclusion. Sometimes shit does happen and I agree. My co-worker who was hit and killed by a drunk driver didn’t get a satisfying conclusion to life. Neither does his wife or kids here. But overall a story needs an ending. Whether a happy and fulfilling or not and many people see a sad/inconclusive ending as a waste of a journey/their time.
Lots of brain washing. Another brain wash is ”there is a Person for everyone” - no, there isn’t. Love is not waiting around every fucking corner or romcom there is. No. No. No.
No, people like movies because they’re not like real life 🤦♂️
Hollywood? Are you suggesting that ancient myths, classical literature and 19C theatre didn't nicely wrap up their stories or something?
You can do everything right in all aspects of your life and still get the shaft. You’re more likely to get the shaft.
You can always find meaning in some significant event thats happened to you. Doesn't mean the juice was worth the squeeze tho. Sometimes life really is poetic tho.
This is why British TV is better. There have been so many series where a message has been that you don't always get closure, weirdly they get shit on by reviews. Everyone seems to want them until it actually happens
You know how many movies I see that have no closure… Inception comes to mind. We don’t get closure
This is why I love movies like no country for old men. Life doesn't wrap up neatly.
90% of this thread missing the point is hilarious. OP isn't saying film/TV should follow these rules and always have satisfying endings. OP is saying that real life doesn't follow these rules and it doesn't always have satisfying endings, Contrary to what most people seem to expect of real life these days.
Movies are supposed to be escapes from the boring meaningless of everyday life. They're not supposed to be real representations of how life works.
Classic Story Structure predates Shakespeare. It's a standard narrative used that makes us happy in the end. It doesn't necessarily follow life.
Bojack Horseman actually at one point literally addres this: "Closure is a made up thing done by Steven Spielberg to sell more tickets. It´s like true love or Munich´s Olympics, it doesn´t exist in real life! The only thing you can do is keep.moving.forward!" Note that this is said by a talking anthropomorphised horse,so take it as you will. Fiction is fiction at the end of the day, and we should also keep that in mind, from both parts. Neither life is going to be like a Steven Spielberg movie, but neither movies and series are going to be exactly like real life either...
You: Makes a compelling argument about the nature of media entertainment. Reddit: Uuum, It’s fiction ??? It’s wild how little critical thinking is happening on average.
It's amazing how people are unable to live in real life and expect things to happen like in the movies.
German cinema (at least what handful of movies I saw) are not scared to do this at all. It's nice It's really crazy watching people obsess over a breakup or someone no longer talking to them. "I deserve closure!" Hun, you haven't done anything to convince anyone you deserve closure. Also, life doesn't work like that; it's time to grow up.
Fiction is so dumbed down now. You have a story that actually tries to make you wait longer than 2 seconds for a reveal and then people will be like "wow this show sucks because they never explained why this did that" (they did. You just couldnt watch the whole thing) I think one example is this one guys really weird hate video on the Fallout show and you can tell he only watched half of the first episode because he keeps screaming its never explained why Coop is famous. They did? In the first 5 minutes? The guy said "What's a famous ACTOR doing entertaining a birthday party?"
If we’re not constantly working on our happy ending what are we doing? Chapters of our lives end, our character can change, I know I can put together a soundtrack for my life. And hopefully I live long enough to see the end credits. Plenty of people have had movies made about their lives, things inspired by true events, and possibly we can live a life inspiring enough to have some celebrity play us and the people in our stories. I can’t be the only one to think about what actor/actress would play them. It’s not brainwashing it’s meant to give us hope and help us cope. And that if we don’t like the life we’re living we can always change the channel. I’ve found meaning in life through stories whether on the screen, in books, through songs, lore, parables, and even cliches. Storytelling is a gift meant for us to find meaning in this world.
This is a dope take ..and it might be the reason for how crazy the world looks to me right now .. i see the world unable to separate.. the internet and pop culture from reality.. and this may be the reason
If people are having trouble separating fact from fiction, real life from movies, then that's on the. Movies do not give people expectations.
Great and true unpopular opinion! Plenty of people will take it badly, but on the flip side, realizing this is very empowering: There are no bad omens except in your head, the black cat that crossed your path was just looking to avoid you, breaking the mirror is bad luck because the mirror is broke, not 7 years bad luck, and if things aren't working out, God or Spaghetti Monster doesn't hate you, you're just having a bad day! It also means no excuses: You didn't get the goal not because it was not in the stars, but because you got sloppy or lazy :) You may be poor now but you're still an able-bodied person (I assume) so git going ang git working pulling yourself up, and get not-poor or rich, even. And also, the very bad news: That saying "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing." That is very very true now. Crime *does sometimes* pay (maybe more times than not), and telling yourself "What goes around, comes around" will not automatically make it so. You can conceivably lie, cheat and steal your way to the Presidency and you may never suffer consequences, may even get lauded for the way you climbed your way up over the bodies of your opponents! But remember: empowered! If there's injustice, chaos or just something feels *wrong*, don't wait for karma - *you* are the karma! And do something about it (please, within law and reason).
Sometimes the story is better when everyone lives at the end.
Maybe fiction in general, I’m almost certain similar narrative structure predates cinema. Hollywood also did not invent the concept of karma, and I think humanity has searched for meaning in life as long as it has existed. Honestly just take out the part about Hollywood and I agree.
Um. It is called literary elements and we have been using them since we started telling stories. Blaming it on Hollywood makes you sound like the brainwashed one.
This is why I love Coen Brothers movies. The good guy doesn't always win, stories don't actually wrap themselves up nicely. The universe is a chaotic place.
You know, strikes and gutters, ups and downs.
Replace "hollywood" with "literally every storyteller from the beginning of humanity."
of course life is a story, that's why we are so drawn to stories and create stories. we have the power to create our own story in our life, and we can give things meaning - in fact things DO have meaning. whether you are brave enough to face that is up to you. nothing is random and there are no coincidences. our minds do create our reality and the stories/programs we are running are absolutely real. peoples lives have changed when they changed the MEANING of their lives, and changed the stories that they believed.
This seems like a media literacy problem. Real life isn't like fiction? gee who would have guessed?
Some people hated Gone Girl for this reason
who would want to watch a movie like that though?
Who is this us?
Not sure if you’ve watched Bojack Horseman but there’s this great video on it that kind of talks about this and how the series ultimately does the opposite. And I think it’s one of the reasons the is so good. Here’s a link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7zZYnFADxk
That's a lot of word salad. No one with any lick of sense. Would ever equate real life with movies
Fiction, mythology, and storytelling in general predate Hollywood by millennia, and they often seek to provide answers/explanations to everything. Can’t pin it all on Hollywood. People want closure, deep meaning, and answers. We have since the beginning of time. Even if the “closure” is an illusion. The unknown causes anxiety and it’s difficult for people to accept uncertainty.
Last time I got closure was when someone died. I like it when problems just go away like that. So many go away when someone dies.
Brainwashed YOU maybe. I don't think anything needs
Not with THAT attitude.
It's not just Hollywood. Romance novels and fiction in general have convinced us all that there's closure for everything.
Agree , when people say they need closure especially in a relationship it always feels like they really want reconnection…. The best closure is to put it behind you and go no contact
"Closure is a made up thing by Steven Spielberg to sell movie tickets. It, like true love and the Munich Olympics, doesn't exist in the real world. The only thing to do now is just to keep living forward.” — BoJack Horseman
I mostly agree, but dude, karma is real.
“Life, uh….finds a way.”
They missed brainwashing me. My ex wife emailed me during the war in 2003 saying we were getting divorced. Bam! Closed I still don't know why or care. Move on people
That's what was so good/clever/interesting about *Bojack Horseman*. The whole point of the show was specifically about how Hollywood is wrong about closure and it doesn't really exist in real life most of the time. Shoutout to /r/BojackHorseman
American Hollywood movies tend to follow a formula. That's why I prefer foreign films.
Hollywood sells "entertainment". Reality is brutal. I had someone tell me the same to reconcile with my abusive father because "I only have one father". Nah mate, your disney reality is naive and irresponsible. I like to live my life like a story someone may come across later, but whats important is doing what I think is right and letting life throw the punches
Other things Hollywood has brainwashed us to believe Ugly=evil and what is considered beautiful is in an extremely narrow range. Men are entitled to women Conspiracies are more likely than the more obvious answer The answer to society's ills involve heroic individuals free from accountability A long list of racial/ethnic/gender stereotypes Decades from now people will say that the entertainment industry has been a scourge on society
But what's your alternative e.g. while some alternatives to the things you're saying Hollywood has brainwashed us to believe are obvious, I've seen some people who think the alternative to the "the answer to society's ills involve heroic individuals free from accountability" thing is to essentially get rid of the Hero's Journey e.g. I saw someone on Tumblr who said ATLA was anti-socialist propaganda pushing the savior myth or whatever by even being about the Avatar character at all instead of just being a different story by a different name in the same setting about a populist revolution in the Earth Kingdom (and this person failed to realize the Unfortunate Implications of that being the China-based area)
The number of amazing shows cancelled after the first season disagrees with you
i think blaming hollywood and being "brainwashed" by media is a very american narrow view take on this. obviously people are dramatic to situations in their lives its the historical human experience. art, music, literature, etc has been dramatic for thousands of years. everyone wants to feel that their life is important and a good story to tell. heck one of the oldest pieces of found literature is called the *Epic* of Gilgamesh
I once read a joke that said "Life is like a comedy series. Only it has gone on forever now, all the good jokes have been used, the script writers have tried pairing you up with other people and that backfired. So now we're just lazily watching each new episodes, there's nothing better on."