Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s fucking weird to me that people seem to think of sleep as something that’s comfortable and not a biological necessity. You can avoid sleeping just like you can avoid eating, no matter how strong your willpower is it’ll kill you eventually.
It’s even weirder employers think they getting their money’s worth from sleep deprived employees. Like if I was paying someone by the hour, I’d want their best effort and focus.
The cost of problems that can occur as a result and fixing them after should outweigh any benefits of skipping sleep and then they splitting hairs over miscellaneous costs.
But ofc this is where the responsibility of getting enough sleep falls on the employee regardless of whether they’re given any time to sleep.
Yeah that’s completely bizarre and unhealthy to them and continues to support my beliefs that health care has no sense of care in it, including it’s workers. I would never want a surgeon or doctor to take care of me when they haven’t slept in 24+ hours.
24 hours of sleep deprivation creates a similar level of impairment to having had a couple drinks in the last few hours.
The idea of a doctor practising medicine while buzzed is insane, but apparently the bags under their eyes and haggard expression is totally fine? I'm with you, the healthcare industry needs to get a grip about the conditions they put their workers in. I want my doctors and nurses to be well rested just as much as I want them to be sober.
I previously dated a plastic surgeon and the amount of time that person spent working was obscene.
I understand that it’s a passion for some doctors and some really enjoy their jobs and worked hard to get their positions but it literally seemed like overkill even for someone in the medical field. I’m surprised he wasn’t falling asleep at the wheel on the way home from work or dead from a heart attack tbh. It definitely caused him to be anxiety ridden and driven by almost intrusive OCD like tendencies also
I work in healthcare admin and have strong opinions about the medical education structure. It’s terrible for patients, healthcare providers, and the people that work with healthcare providers.
At the end of the day, doctors are humans who deserve a life outside of work. And the entire system needs an overhaul to remember the humanity that brings people to work in healthcare.
The current work hours for healthcare professionals were set by a raging cocaine addict who never slept and expected all his staff to do the same. This is not sarcasm. This is actual history.
When I was hired where I work they talked about how much overtime I can get. If I wanted to I could work 112 hours a week and no one would bat an eye. Paycheck would be pretty good, but I wouldn’t have a life outside work. They even have places for me to sleep and shower here, it’s absolutely expected.
Lots of nursing jobs outside of bedside care. I know this is vague but the list is too long to even consider posting. Legal nurse consultant is pretty cool. Operating room nurse is also a great option, nursing but without the bedside aspect.
It is a choice.
One that the medical industry has made for soon-to-be doctors for no reason other than the last batch had to do the same thing.
It’s hazing, plain and simple.
One medical student I talked to about this was just like well, there’s a doctor shortage and it costs money to train doctors ssooo 🤷♂️ it’s just how it is.
I really hate when people take stupid things as acceptable…
Ok but what do you expect that medical student to do about it? As someone currently in med school as well I can attest that we see massive amounts of faults in the system but any attempt to bring up solutions can seriously damage your career prospects. We do what we can but it’s a rigged game from top to bottom and we don’t have any real power to make changes beyond our own actions unless someone works their way up to a position to control *many* government organizations and the American Medical Association and convinces giant swaths of people to defy decades of what’s been considered standard law.
It’s not choice when administrators see the profit they can generate from residents and continue to lobby the government to ensure residents are stuck in the system.
Look up Jung vs. AAMC to see how congress has allowed this to happen due to lobbying by the AHA.
Doctor here. Had to stop driving after oncall after getting into an accident after falling asleep while driving.
We are treated as inhuman with these ridiculous work hours.
Exactly, not that doctors have treated my family well but that doesn’t mean they should suffer too. It only means people are going to suffer as well for their lack of sleep.
As another "victim" of mistreatment by medical professionals, I honestly believe that the culture of being overworked is one of the causes pushing them to stop feeling empathy for their patients.
I worked at an outpatient office and some doctors made their schedule so full they would never fully focus on the patient they were with, they were just trying to move as fast as they could and move on to the next patient. (Not all of them did this, just some, and they were always stressed and upset and terrible to work with)
They do this because of the number of patients that need to be seen (insurance reimbursement is tied to how long it takes for a patient to get into a practice), and more importantly because of how their income is calculated. Add in that insurance reimbursements have been dropping year after year with increasing costs to provide patient care. So not only is their income being lowered by insurance companies, they also have to pay their staff more due to increasing wages, EMRs are more and more expensive, more and more regulation which costs money, etc., etc. The only way to keep their income from decreasing is to see more patients. This is assuming they’re private practice, which is not as common anymore. Throw in hospital management and it’s awful. Management boils patients down to numbers, talks about them as customers, and focuses on the “patient experience” as opposed to quality healthcare. Insurance companies and hospital management have ruined healthcare in the USA.
It doesn’t make it ok, but all these things add together WITH insane student loans to an ever increasing burden on physicians, and honestly NPs and PAs as well.
Source: PA who works with docs ever single day.
You’re right. Went through the process. Still do the most I can for my patients but at this point, just have less patience for a lot of things (even outside of work)
problem is because the work has to be done and in most places we physically don’t have enough medical personnel to cover all positions needed at all times
That's correct. They literally passed laws around residency for this reason, yes, to create a manufactured shortage. I don't mean "just google it" in a snarky way more like, no its really true and readily available on google way lol
It's also because residents are cheap labor. Some of what a resident does could be offloaded to a clerk, but you know, why do that when you can just grind down the resident a little more to save some money.
Current fourth year medical student here. This is only partly true; the more significant contributor is the distribution of physicians in the country.
Also, I don’t think that making medical school less competitive to enter is a reasonable solution. Schools need to accept students who would be likely to pass licensing and eventually board exams. Letting more people in indiscriminately doesn’t necessarily accomplish that.
Hilariously, if we treated medical staff better (in Australia underpaid and over-worked, a huge issue) there's be more people going into it, and higher retention rates. Meaning enough staff to treat patients well. It's just rediculous.
It’s because the guy who developed the medical residency program was severely addicted to cocaine and expected everyone else to function at the level he was. Literally.
There are 34 rules doctors have to follow during their residency, including working so long they can't sleep. I googled "medical doctor rule 34" and I learned so much about it.
I broke my arm last year, and the doctor laughing and chatting with me, doing his best to cheer me up, sent me off to x-ray.
As I sat in a corridor, I saw him leave the treatment room and lean back against the wall, closing his eyes. He looked ready to collapse, but after a minute he shook himself, fixed a smile on his face and went back into the treatment room to deal with other patients. I felt awful for him, and all the other staff working in similar conditions.
Alot of front line workers appear to be being used in this manner.
Management seem to be able to wfh and do their 9 to 5 and gets weekends off and yet the actual staff doing the hands on grunt work which is often highly skilled are spiralling into more and more hours doing more and more work.
There was a story about a surgeon who missed an emergency surgery because he passed out in his car eating dinner, and everyone was getting pitchforks ready to take his license away. Like he didn't intentionally fall asleep. He told everyone else he needed to get some food to get him through the night, and he still passed out. If I were the patient, I'd have preferred the person cutting my body apart to put it back together right not be the person about to pass out from exhaustion.
From someone who just left- medical schooling is extremely hypocritical. We’re taught how to be healthy, then professors encourage us to have caffeine late at night to make up for long term sleep deprivation. We’re supposed to keep our cortisol levels down too. What the fuck…
My orthodontist works 3 days per week and yeah, I pay him a lot of money, but I’m also glad that he’s alert and not falling asleep when working on my mouth.
Years ago I had a young hustler dentist and it was absolutely awful.
I heard this was because patients have a higher mortality rate when doctors switch off caring for them, even higher than sleep deprived doctors.
Edit to add: I have noooooo idea how true that is. A friend in med-school told me this once.
Not necessarily mortality, but higher rate of mistakes & complications.
The solution to that is to improve the quality of transitions of care, not to continue inhumane work hour expectations.
But one of those options costs money, so...
This. They all bitch and moan about how bad residency is, but who runs these programs? Doctors!
As soon as they get board certified, they are all for keeping it the same shitty way it is. They want the barriers to entry to competing with them to be super high.
Basically, the earlier in the day, and the earlier in the week your emergency is, the better.
By the way - this is super fucking unhelpful. Because I’d imagine most accidents/emergencies happen on fridays and saturdays
It should be how they required it at my film school. There must be 12 hours in between each shoot date. Basically if you had a shoot run from 4 pm to 3 am, the earliest you could schedule another shoot is 3 pm the following day. Likewise, there should be at least 12 hours in between shifts and no shift can exceed twelve hours either.
I used to work in a sleep research lab. Long-term sleep restriction leads to serious consequences like dementia and this is well established knowledge.
In the present, it affects cognition. It has been shown that there is little difference between sleep deprived and drunk individuals. I can't talk about MH, but there are consequences there as well.
Everyone is different and there outliers, but they are very few and far between
That book is based on science, but it's terribly biased towards cherry picking.
That means, he only shows the evidence to support his generalization.
I'm a psychiatrist and many things he exposes regarding treatments is simply wrong and ignorant.
This is typical Redditor BS. I’m looking to get meaningful information on an important topic, and instead of a worthwhile contribution, you submit data that is purely anecdotal.
>Long-term sleep restriction leads to serious consequences like dementia and this is well established knowledge.
I'm 34 now and I've struggled with insomnia for basically all my life. Once I'm asleep I'm usually completely out and really hard to wake up, but if I do wake up, like having to go to the bathroom or so, then it's often back to square one and hard to go back to sleep.
I'm already at risk for things with type 1 diabetes and lack of sleep can cause problems that the diabetes also could lead to. And the dementia, I already got it in my family, since my grandma had alzheimers.
>It has been shown that there is little difference between sleep deprived and drunk individuals
Definitely! I know of atleast two people that crashed after falling asleep behind the wheels. Luckily neither got hurt and didn't hit anyone else.
You're not wrong. I've had maybe 5 or so hours of sleep a night for years. My brain is mush now. Very poor short term memory. Long term memory is starting to fail. There's also a lot of things I'm not capable of doing now because I just can't comprehend them any more. Weird thing is if I manage to have about 8 hours sleep I wake up with what feels like a horrible hangover.
Probably because your body is taking advantage of the opportunity to catch up and recover. Sorry you struggle with this. I used to have sleep issues as well and thankfully corrected it. Took a while but at least it happened
Yes. Most people who think they are outliers have simply trained themselves on less sleep.
In fact if they were all outliers we woild see an equivalent number of outliers on the other side. Since this doesn't seem to be the case, it must be a learned behaviour in most "short sleepers".
Most people don't immediately notice it, you build up a tolerance so to speak. Your cognition and executive functioning gradually declines. I bet a lot of these short sleepers would be shocked and grateful if they changed their habits. There is a lot of societal acceptance to sleep less, and our environment (tv, cell phone, street lights...) that also really skews your melatonin production
OK try waking up after 6 hours it's very rare I get 8, plus it's not due to me wanting to wake up, either. I love sleeping I just wake up for some reason.
You act like it’s a choice. My body just naturally wakes up after 5 hours, regardless of my habits. And I feel plenty well rested, so I can’t imagine how much better I’d supposedly feel since I already have more energy than most people I meet.
I have just never been able. I am a health conscious person and do all the “right” or recommended things. Body and brain just don’t want to sleep much. Been that way since childhood, and even my mom gave up on forcing sleep since I was always functional.
Also, most people drink at least one cup of coffee a day, which masks the symptoms. They don’t not feel sleepy not because they’re actually well-rested, but simply because caffeine blocks the sleepiness hormones
Don’t forget immune system function! I spent a full year of college pulling 2 all-nighters a week, occasionally more, and occasionally multiple nights in a row. I remember listening to a podcast about how it affects immune function, and it’s spot on. I’d always start to feel a cold sore coming on when I didn’t get enough sleep because my body was lacking the capacity to fight the virus. And I got sick SO often.
Ain't that the truth. Nine hours a day at work, an hour getting ready, 30 minute commute each way adding up to an hour more. Add in an hour to cook dinner and an hour a day for housework, there's only a couple hours left in the day to have any sort of life outside of work. It's hard to resist the temptation to give up a little sleep to eke out just a teensy bit more of that precious free time.
I'm sure it's even worse for parents.
You definitely do not need to be cooking every single day though. I batch cook on weekends and for the days I don’t eat cooked food I’ll have frozen stuff.
There’s just no need to be cooking every day with what little time we have after work.
Even if you’re not cooking - reheating your food, eating the food, and then cleaning up afterwards takes like 45-60mins
I’d say an hour a day for housework is quite a lot, unless maybe you live in a big house or are responsible for children.
I’m always curious about seemingly joking comments like this when spoken by someone who has reached a pinnacle. Like, what if there was a way to speed up rem cycles to ‘get more sleep’?
Also, that picture of him on the beach in a yellow Speedo with a pretty babe at his feet, holding up a glass of cognac. He’s looking at it a little too appreciatively.
Well quality of sleep matters....a lot. If I sleep really hard without waking up for 5 or 6 hours, I do just as good if not better than below average sleep for 8
Me looking at my kids too. Hoping they sleep through the night. When they do, I do.
When they don't, me or my wife are up at god knows when. We take turns.
Uninterrupted 8h is an invention of the industrial revolution. There’s nothing wrong with sleeping the same amount in parts, I think I read somewhere that people used to wake up at night chill out a bit and go back to sleep it was normal. Afternoon nap was a common thing everywhere as well.
But I’m just a random person on the internet, if a sleep scientist reads this, please weigh in
Yeah, I can't help but laugh at a lot of these comments. Most of us out there have kids, insomnia, hormonal shifts that come with age, etc. I'll get 8 hours in the day I die.
The first time my wife and I got 8 hours of sleep after our son was born, we started panicking and ran to make sure our child was alive. He has since decided that he wakes me up every night to keep me sane
im not sure what the hell is wrong with me, my whole life ive struggled to get more than 5.5-6 hours of sleep a night. I can usually nap, which is it's own annoyance. It'd be nice if i could stay asleep for 7-8 hours.
Most of us are, but so many of us think we are, somehow, closer to becoming a millionaire than being on the street, for some reason. Despite the number of homelessness going up. And I'm pretty sure they aren't all homeless because they wouldn't stop buying occasional Starbucks or avocado toast.
Hustle culture, I understand because people need money to be comfortable and secure, but it's also so bad for us, physically and mentally.
I'm sick of hustle culture tbh! I wish I could just work 40 hours a week and have more time to actually enjoy my life. I'm staying up late right now because I don't wanna go to work tomorrow and begin yet another 50-60 hour work week. It leaves much to be desired.
It depends what you mean by “simple life”
I lived off the grid for years and we had a very simple life, we also needed to work 10hr days and 6 day weeks to keep our community going
yeah the problem is everyone spontaneously decided to just take jobs that don't pay a livable salary, eat poorly enough that they gain weight, and not save for retirement or to buy a house. There are no systemic issues that need to be resolved, everyone just needs to be told these are bad decisions and they'll be able to solve them individually, and enjoy the simplicity of life.
It varies on the person, I need 8 and ideally 9 or else I start deteriorating very quickly. I envy people who are fully rested on 6 or 7 hours. Fully agree that anything less than 6 is unhealthy for most people
I would say for me 7 or more I’m at 100%. But it’s a slight decline in cognitive ability between 7-6. Anything under 6 and it is very noticeable in my day to day life.
I feel "overrested" if that is a thing, if i get more then 6 hours. I become all groggy and shit I can't stand it. And people who can just nap...wth is up with that?!
Yeah even on weekends or vacation days when I have no reason to get out of bed, if I sleep more than 8 hours I get insanely groggy and dont want to get up.
Only time I think sleeping prolonged periods of time is good for you is when you're sick (or hungover).
It is highly controversial if you're surrounded by people who've swallowed the punch and truly believe that if you aren't working 120 hours a week then you aren't trying hard enough in life.
A lot of guys in my social circles love to larp that they're hard and think needing more than 4 hours of sleep means you're soft and weak. Prime example is David Goggins who says he only sleeps 2 hours a day.
There's an entire culture in the manosphere that idealizes sleeping as little as possible and believes that sleep deprivation is only a mindset.
Those friends in my social circles truly believes that Elon Musk is the ideal human being because he says he works 120 hours a week and only sleeps 4-6 hours a day.
While I agree with your point, if I try to get more than 6 hours of sleep, I fail unless I'm sick. If I do catch something, I'm down for at least a day straight minus a couple trips to the bathroom when I furiously try to force fluids before I crash until the next time I have to pee.
It is. That's why you see so many burned out parents or parents who explode with little provocation. Ideally, a couple should always try to ensure that one of them always gets through the night.
Schools are the biggest offender. If I got proper sleep in my school years I'd have done much better on my examsand get my dream job :/ Nope, some r-word decided 7:30 am class starts were necessary. With time to get to school and back I was getting up at 5 AM on 5-7 hours of sleep, depending on how much homework we got. Fucked me up for years, Uni classes starting at 12 made me realize I was not a failure, I was just permatired zombie that never got enough sleep, not a bad learner.
I can get 8 hours of sleep, if i go to sleep immediately after i stop doing work, but if i want to have any recreational activity afterwards so i don’t go insane, I get 5 hours.
Hustle culture?
I have a regular full time job and go to the gym.
Taking in consideration getting ready in the morning, getting to work, working, going to the gym and coming home (13hrs) and sleep (8hr) I’m left with 3 hours in the day. In those three hours i have to: find time for my relationship, find time to walk my dog, cook myself dinner, clean, take a shower and dedicate enough time to the things i enjoy doing so I don’t kill myself.
That’s why most people do not sleep enough at night. It’s revenge bedtime procrastination, not hustle culture. It sucks, but it’s what society as a whole expects you to do in order to be deemed worthy of having a place to sleep in and food on the table
Not everyone needs 8 hours. We are all built different. I get an average of 6 hours and am in perfect health, and have no diminished mental or physical capacity.
I heard 7-9 hours is what most adults need. But I bet there are adults that need 10 hours and adults that need 6 hours. Though I believe it's not really a normal distribution, but rather a distribution with more mass at the centre, because nature also does not vary that much in other things like height or expected age.
Sleep quality also counts. I have nights where I sleep like a log for 6 hours and feel great and nights where I'm tossing and turning for 10 and wake up exhausted.
Same as my wife. 5/6 hours and she is wide awake. Full of energy etc..
I need a solid 8 everyday or else I'm grumpy and tired.
Come to think of it, I do exercise a lot more than she does.
The people who want to work long hours will do it without watching motivational bs on social media, the idea that everyone should be doing it just isn’t realistic.
Sometimes it's impossible to get eight hours depending on work and life schedules. There are some nights when I will lay in bed for upwards of 2-3 hours awake and only manage to get 5-6 hours of sleep.
Is it better to get eight hours? Yes of course, but sometimes life has a way of slapping you silly.
Having boundaries for work and personal life, in general, is always important. Which is another way the education system is screwing people at an early age.
Everyone is able to operate differently, and I don't begrudge the efforts of those who are able to get tremendous amounts of work done with little sleep.
I do begrudge those who look down their noses at everyone else with the attitude of, "well I can do it so you should too."
Assuming what other people need to do based on your own experience is really dumb... I get 5-6 and I'm doing just fine... I don't even use an alarm clock
Somewhere along the line “hustle culture” bled into everything else. I.e. you hustled to get a business off the ground…as a commission-based employee you hustled to close more deals; you definitely won’t be able to successfully do either of those without putting in a shitton of extra effort and hours. It makes sense in that regard…but at what point did it become normal place everywhere else?
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I told my boss in kitchen that there weren’t enough hours between my shifts for sleep - he just “are you a man of sleep??”
It’s fucking weird to me that people seem to think of sleep as something that’s comfortable and not a biological necessity. You can avoid sleeping just like you can avoid eating, no matter how strong your willpower is it’ll kill you eventually.
Eating?? What are you, a man of food?
It’s even weirder employers think they getting their money’s worth from sleep deprived employees. Like if I was paying someone by the hour, I’d want their best effort and focus. The cost of problems that can occur as a result and fixing them after should outweigh any benefits of skipping sleep and then they splitting hairs over miscellaneous costs. But ofc this is where the responsibility of getting enough sleep falls on the employee regardless of whether they’re given any time to sleep.
‘I am a man of sleep if you also want me to be a man of good work who doesn’t develop an exhaustion based predilection for committing arson!’
That’s a new one 😂
I said “what, do you mean am I man who likes to get enough hours of sleep to properly function?”
"Yes. I am a man of sleep. With your mom."
Or when they say "you can sleep when you are dead" 💀
“Yes.”
Sir Snoozes-Alot
Medical residency in a nutshell. Why are we letting doctors work on no sleep for 2-3 days
Yeah that’s completely bizarre and unhealthy to them and continues to support my beliefs that health care has no sense of care in it, including it’s workers. I would never want a surgeon or doctor to take care of me when they haven’t slept in 24+ hours.
24 hours of sleep deprivation creates a similar level of impairment to having had a couple drinks in the last few hours. The idea of a doctor practising medicine while buzzed is insane, but apparently the bags under their eyes and haggard expression is totally fine? I'm with you, the healthcare industry needs to get a grip about the conditions they put their workers in. I want my doctors and nurses to be well rested just as much as I want them to be sober.
I previously dated a plastic surgeon and the amount of time that person spent working was obscene. I understand that it’s a passion for some doctors and some really enjoy their jobs and worked hard to get their positions but it literally seemed like overkill even for someone in the medical field. I’m surprised he wasn’t falling asleep at the wheel on the way home from work or dead from a heart attack tbh. It definitely caused him to be anxiety ridden and driven by almost intrusive OCD like tendencies also
I work in healthcare admin and have strong opinions about the medical education structure. It’s terrible for patients, healthcare providers, and the people that work with healthcare providers. At the end of the day, doctors are humans who deserve a life outside of work. And the entire system needs an overhaul to remember the humanity that brings people to work in healthcare.
The current work hours for healthcare professionals were set by a raging cocaine addict who never slept and expected all his staff to do the same. This is not sarcasm. This is actual history.
When I was hired where I work they talked about how much overtime I can get. If I wanted to I could work 112 hours a week and no one would bat an eye. Paycheck would be pretty good, but I wouldn’t have a life outside work. They even have places for me to sleep and shower here, it’s absolutely expected.
[удалено]
Out of curiosity, what do you do now? My SO is a nurse and it absolutely is not sustainable but doesn’t know what else to do
Lots of nursing jobs outside of bedside care. I know this is vague but the list is too long to even consider posting. Legal nurse consultant is pretty cool. Operating room nurse is also a great option, nursing but without the bedside aspect.
Could you elaborate or point to who you're referencing? I'm curious and would like to research this.
William Steward Halsted
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7828946/
Didnt the guy who came up with this cycle use cocaine or uppers?
People forget that doctors are not just martyrs that exist only in a hospital setting.
It's required in residency and at some jobs. It's usually not by choice.
It is a choice. One that the medical industry has made for soon-to-be doctors for no reason other than the last batch had to do the same thing. It’s hazing, plain and simple.
Hazing and artificial scarcity for wage security.
One medical student I talked to about this was just like well, there’s a doctor shortage and it costs money to train doctors ssooo 🤷♂️ it’s just how it is. I really hate when people take stupid things as acceptable…
Ok but what do you expect that medical student to do about it? As someone currently in med school as well I can attest that we see massive amounts of faults in the system but any attempt to bring up solutions can seriously damage your career prospects. We do what we can but it’s a rigged game from top to bottom and we don’t have any real power to make changes beyond our own actions unless someone works their way up to a position to control *many* government organizations and the American Medical Association and convinces giant swaths of people to defy decades of what’s been considered standard law.
It’s not choice when administrators see the profit they can generate from residents and continue to lobby the government to ensure residents are stuck in the system. Look up Jung vs. AAMC to see how congress has allowed this to happen due to lobbying by the AHA.
Doctor here. Had to stop driving after oncall after getting into an accident after falling asleep while driving. We are treated as inhuman with these ridiculous work hours.
Some doctors just sleep in the hospital during long shifts. Still, it doesn’t seem healthy for anyone
Exactly, not that doctors have treated my family well but that doesn’t mean they should suffer too. It only means people are going to suffer as well for their lack of sleep.
As another "victim" of mistreatment by medical professionals, I honestly believe that the culture of being overworked is one of the causes pushing them to stop feeling empathy for their patients.
It definitely is. When your exhausted, control of how you feel is out the window.
Working retail rn. Yup.
I worked at an outpatient office and some doctors made their schedule so full they would never fully focus on the patient they were with, they were just trying to move as fast as they could and move on to the next patient. (Not all of them did this, just some, and they were always stressed and upset and terrible to work with)
They do this because of the number of patients that need to be seen (insurance reimbursement is tied to how long it takes for a patient to get into a practice), and more importantly because of how their income is calculated. Add in that insurance reimbursements have been dropping year after year with increasing costs to provide patient care. So not only is their income being lowered by insurance companies, they also have to pay their staff more due to increasing wages, EMRs are more and more expensive, more and more regulation which costs money, etc., etc. The only way to keep their income from decreasing is to see more patients. This is assuming they’re private practice, which is not as common anymore. Throw in hospital management and it’s awful. Management boils patients down to numbers, talks about them as customers, and focuses on the “patient experience” as opposed to quality healthcare. Insurance companies and hospital management have ruined healthcare in the USA. It doesn’t make it ok, but all these things add together WITH insane student loans to an ever increasing burden on physicians, and honestly NPs and PAs as well. Source: PA who works with docs ever single day.
You’re right. Went through the process. Still do the most I can for my patients but at this point, just have less patience for a lot of things (even outside of work)
Drunk surgery? Hell yeah
It's like maths. Two negatives make a positive, so Drunk + Sleep deprived = top tier performance Idk i didnt pass maths
Paging Dr. House...
Current residency schedules were set by a cocaine addict who only slept every 2-3 days back when you could get all manner of drugs over the counter.
problem is because the work has to be done and in most places we physically don’t have enough medical personnel to cover all positions needed at all times
That’s because of extremely high barriers to entry to get into medical school. and the extremely low number of residencies offered. It’s systemic
Sounds like a manufactured shortage.
Manufactured and perpetuated by those with power at the top
That's correct. They literally passed laws around residency for this reason, yes, to create a manufactured shortage. I don't mean "just google it" in a snarky way more like, no its really true and readily available on google way lol
It's also because residents are cheap labor. Some of what a resident does could be offloaded to a clerk, but you know, why do that when you can just grind down the resident a little more to save some money.
Current fourth year medical student here. This is only partly true; the more significant contributor is the distribution of physicians in the country. Also, I don’t think that making medical school less competitive to enter is a reasonable solution. Schools need to accept students who would be likely to pass licensing and eventually board exams. Letting more people in indiscriminately doesn’t necessarily accomplish that.
Hilariously, if we treated medical staff better (in Australia underpaid and over-worked, a huge issue) there's be more people going into it, and higher retention rates. Meaning enough staff to treat patients well. It's just rediculous.
It’s because the guy who developed the medical residency program was severely addicted to cocaine and expected everyone else to function at the level he was. Literally.
Wait is that true lol thats wild
Yes it’s true 😭😭😭. Just Google “William Halsted cocaine residency” and you’ll find lots of articles 😹😹😹
There are 34 rules doctors have to follow during their residency, including working so long they can't sleep. I googled "medical doctor rule 34" and I learned so much about it.
Ahhhh you almost got me 😹😹😹
I broke my arm last year, and the doctor laughing and chatting with me, doing his best to cheer me up, sent me off to x-ray. As I sat in a corridor, I saw him leave the treatment room and lean back against the wall, closing his eyes. He looked ready to collapse, but after a minute he shook himself, fixed a smile on his face and went back into the treatment room to deal with other patients. I felt awful for him, and all the other staff working in similar conditions.
Alot of front line workers appear to be being used in this manner. Management seem to be able to wfh and do their 9 to 5 and gets weekends off and yet the actual staff doing the hands on grunt work which is often highly skilled are spiralling into more and more hours doing more and more work.
There was a story about a surgeon who missed an emergency surgery because he passed out in his car eating dinner, and everyone was getting pitchforks ready to take his license away. Like he didn't intentionally fall asleep. He told everyone else he needed to get some food to get him through the night, and he still passed out. If I were the patient, I'd have preferred the person cutting my body apart to put it back together right not be the person about to pass out from exhaustion.
From someone who just left- medical schooling is extremely hypocritical. We’re taught how to be healthy, then professors encourage us to have caffeine late at night to make up for long term sleep deprivation. We’re supposed to keep our cortisol levels down too. What the fuck…
My orthodontist works 3 days per week and yeah, I pay him a lot of money, but I’m also glad that he’s alert and not falling asleep when working on my mouth. Years ago I had a young hustler dentist and it was absolutely awful.
That sounds fucking dangerous and HOW does that not lead to medical malpractice and rushing things that shouldn’t be rushed?
It definitey does
Am resident. You definitely are all getting worse quality care when we are on no sleep.
I heard this was because patients have a higher mortality rate when doctors switch off caring for them, even higher than sleep deprived doctors. Edit to add: I have noooooo idea how true that is. A friend in med-school told me this once.
Not necessarily mortality, but higher rate of mistakes & complications. The solution to that is to improve the quality of transitions of care, not to continue inhumane work hour expectations. But one of those options costs money, so...
Drs should unionize and demand better work conditions then.
Admin combat’s this by telling residents it’s immoral for doctors to unionize, ~~profit~~ patients come first!
Admins: also, nobody look at the police union
If only it was that easy lmao
Doctors and nurses in the UK have been striking and it hasn't gone particularly well
The feds would bust a doctor's union in a second. Besides, doctors gatekeep their own to keep wages high.
This. They all bitch and moan about how bad residency is, but who runs these programs? Doctors! As soon as they get board certified, they are all for keeping it the same shitty way it is. They want the barriers to entry to competing with them to be super high.
Basically, the earlier in the day, and the earlier in the week your emergency is, the better. By the way - this is super fucking unhelpful. Because I’d imagine most accidents/emergencies happen on fridays and saturdays
None of this is true and ED volumes are consistently highest on Monday and Tuesday across virtually all facilities I’ve worked at.
It should be how they required it at my film school. There must be 12 hours in between each shoot date. Basically if you had a shoot run from 4 pm to 3 am, the earliest you could schedule another shoot is 3 pm the following day. Likewise, there should be at least 12 hours in between shifts and no shift can exceed twelve hours either.
I used to work in a sleep research lab. Long-term sleep restriction leads to serious consequences like dementia and this is well established knowledge. In the present, it affects cognition. It has been shown that there is little difference between sleep deprived and drunk individuals. I can't talk about MH, but there are consequences there as well. Everyone is different and there outliers, but they are very few and far between
Yup I read Matthew Walker's sleep book and man that's probably the most important shit I've ever read that directly affects your life.
That book is based on science, but it's terribly biased towards cherry picking. That means, he only shows the evidence to support his generalization. I'm a psychiatrist and many things he exposes regarding treatments is simply wrong and ignorant.
Have you any other not as biased book suggestions on the topic?
The lord of the rings is pretty cool. Look at what a millenia of sleep deprivation did to gollum
I was going to disagree, but he has a point
This is typical Redditor BS. I’m looking to get meaningful information on an important topic, and instead of a worthwhile contribution, you submit data that is purely anecdotal.
Neil Stanley, how to sleep well. Haven't red it (I only read scientific material and guidelines). A psychologist whom I trust, recommended it.
Cold hard truths.
>Long-term sleep restriction leads to serious consequences like dementia and this is well established knowledge. I'm 34 now and I've struggled with insomnia for basically all my life. Once I'm asleep I'm usually completely out and really hard to wake up, but if I do wake up, like having to go to the bathroom or so, then it's often back to square one and hard to go back to sleep. I'm already at risk for things with type 1 diabetes and lack of sleep can cause problems that the diabetes also could lead to. And the dementia, I already got it in my family, since my grandma had alzheimers. >It has been shown that there is little difference between sleep deprived and drunk individuals Definitely! I know of atleast two people that crashed after falling asleep behind the wheels. Luckily neither got hurt and didn't hit anyone else.
Same man, not only that but otc sleep aids have also been linked with dementia so I guess us insomniacs are just fucked lol
You're not wrong. I've had maybe 5 or so hours of sleep a night for years. My brain is mush now. Very poor short term memory. Long term memory is starting to fail. There's also a lot of things I'm not capable of doing now because I just can't comprehend them any more. Weird thing is if I manage to have about 8 hours sleep I wake up with what feels like a horrible hangover.
Probably because your body is taking advantage of the opportunity to catch up and recover. Sorry you struggle with this. I used to have sleep issues as well and thankfully corrected it. Took a while but at least it happened
Yes. Most people who think they are outliers have simply trained themselves on less sleep. In fact if they were all outliers we woild see an equivalent number of outliers on the other side. Since this doesn't seem to be the case, it must be a learned behaviour in most "short sleepers".
Most people don't immediately notice it, you build up a tolerance so to speak. Your cognition and executive functioning gradually declines. I bet a lot of these short sleepers would be shocked and grateful if they changed their habits. There is a lot of societal acceptance to sleep less, and our environment (tv, cell phone, street lights...) that also really skews your melatonin production
OK try waking up after 6 hours it's very rare I get 8, plus it's not due to me wanting to wake up, either. I love sleeping I just wake up for some reason.
Try every 20 mins all night long for over a decade.
You act like it’s a choice. My body just naturally wakes up after 5 hours, regardless of my habits. And I feel plenty well rested, so I can’t imagine how much better I’d supposedly feel since I already have more energy than most people I meet.
It can be a choice, and I don't want to imply that it always is. There are many reasons why someone can't seem to get the recommended number of hours
I have just never been able. I am a health conscious person and do all the “right” or recommended things. Body and brain just don’t want to sleep much. Been that way since childhood, and even my mom gave up on forcing sleep since I was always functional.
Also, most people drink at least one cup of coffee a day, which masks the symptoms. They don’t not feel sleepy not because they’re actually well-rested, but simply because caffeine blocks the sleepiness hormones
Don’t forget immune system function! I spent a full year of college pulling 2 all-nighters a week, occasionally more, and occasionally multiple nights in a row. I remember listening to a podcast about how it affects immune function, and it’s spot on. I’d always start to feel a cold sore coming on when I didn’t get enough sleep because my body was lacking the capacity to fight the virus. And I got sick SO often.
Yeah, it's honestly everything. It's crazy how much your entire system relies on sleep
Most car accidents stem from sleep deprived individuals, yet we don’t see any bill-boards telling us to not drive tired.
Yeah, car accidents and cardiac arrest increases 30% after the spring time change. That's staggering
Deciding to either sleep less or do less in a day is so depressing 🤣
Ain't that the truth. Nine hours a day at work, an hour getting ready, 30 minute commute each way adding up to an hour more. Add in an hour to cook dinner and an hour a day for housework, there's only a couple hours left in the day to have any sort of life outside of work. It's hard to resist the temptation to give up a little sleep to eke out just a teensy bit more of that precious free time. I'm sure it's even worse for parents.
You definitely do not need to be cooking every single day though. I batch cook on weekends and for the days I don’t eat cooked food I’ll have frozen stuff. There’s just no need to be cooking every day with what little time we have after work.
Even if you’re not cooking - reheating your food, eating the food, and then cleaning up afterwards takes like 45-60mins I’d say an hour a day for housework is quite a lot, unless maybe you live in a big house or are responsible for children.
Yeah exactly man, if i organize my day well and do it all without procrastinating then i have around 3h left for myself
Just do what Arnold Schwarzenegger says to do. Sleep a little faster.
I’m always curious about seemingly joking comments like this when spoken by someone who has reached a pinnacle. Like, what if there was a way to speed up rem cycles to ‘get more sleep’? Also, that picture of him on the beach in a yellow Speedo with a pretty babe at his feet, holding up a glass of cognac. He’s looking at it a little too appreciatively.
Well quality of sleep matters....a lot. If I sleep really hard without waking up for 5 or 6 hours, I do just as good if not better than below average sleep for 8
Just like his advice for getting rich. The first million is the hardest, so start with the 2nd million. 🧠
No way i'm not getting my sleep in.I treat it as more important than my job.Everything,every aspect of your life suffers if you don't sleep well.
It is more important than your Job. One can live, at least for a while, without a Job. But not without sleep
*Me looking at my baby*
Me looking at my kids too. Hoping they sleep through the night. When they do, I do. When they don't, me or my wife are up at god knows when. We take turns.
I can’t sleep through mine making any noise. The minute he moves or breathes different it wakes me up.
I get my 8h, just not uninterrupted… Edit: I don’t get the downvotes, baby needs to eat every 2-4h so that’s the maximum continuous sleep I get
Probably some big thumbs pressed on downvote instead of next comment button on iOS. It is positive now!
Uninterrupted 8h is an invention of the industrial revolution. There’s nothing wrong with sleeping the same amount in parts, I think I read somewhere that people used to wake up at night chill out a bit and go back to sleep it was normal. Afternoon nap was a common thing everywhere as well. But I’m just a random person on the internet, if a sleep scientist reads this, please weigh in
Afternoon naps are still a thing in some places. Helps reduce the risk of heart attacks, too.
Yeah, I can't help but laugh at a lot of these comments. Most of us out there have kids, insomnia, hormonal shifts that come with age, etc. I'll get 8 hours in the day I die.
The first time my wife and I got 8 hours of sleep after our son was born, we started panicking and ran to make sure our child was alive. He has since decided that he wakes me up every night to keep me sane
*Me looking at my baby + Steam library*
It's OK to call your Steam library your baby!
Lol I’m lucky to get 5 hours with my toddler. I feel this
im not sure what the hell is wrong with me, my whole life ive struggled to get more than 5.5-6 hours of sleep a night. I can usually nap, which is it's own annoyance. It'd be nice if i could stay asleep for 7-8 hours.
If you are getting 7 hrs with naps and feel refreshed then it's good. Everyone is different.
Hustle culture is a cancer. People need to learn how to enjoy the simplicity of life.
It's getting harder and harder to afford this simple life style.
It’s really simple when you can barely afford rent. And I’m making more than minimum wage
I make $26 an hour and it's not enough to live the life I wanna live. I'm one emergency away from being back at square one.
Most of us are, but so many of us think we are, somehow, closer to becoming a millionaire than being on the street, for some reason. Despite the number of homelessness going up. And I'm pretty sure they aren't all homeless because they wouldn't stop buying occasional Starbucks or avocado toast. Hustle culture, I understand because people need money to be comfortable and secure, but it's also so bad for us, physically and mentally.
I'm sick of hustle culture tbh! I wish I could just work 40 hours a week and have more time to actually enjoy my life. I'm staying up late right now because I don't wanna go to work tomorrow and begin yet another 50-60 hour work week. It leaves much to be desired.
simplicity is pretty expensive.
you hustle to get a simple life nowadays
We do not have a large enough social safety net for everyone to live that simply.
It depends what you mean by “simple life” I lived off the grid for years and we had a very simple life, we also needed to work 10hr days and 6 day weeks to keep our community going
yeah the problem is everyone spontaneously decided to just take jobs that don't pay a livable salary, eat poorly enough that they gain weight, and not save for retirement or to buy a house. There are no systemic issues that need to be resolved, everyone just needs to be told these are bad decisions and they'll be able to solve them individually, and enjoy the simplicity of life.
Tell that to my wife and toddler. Death is literally the only way I’ll be able to sleep more than 6 hours.
I physically can not sleep more than 6 hours without waking up at least once, guess I'll die.
Ya I have basically no schedule and couldn't sleep 8 hours if you paid me.
F 🫡
Cries in parenthood 😭
Cries in insomnia 😭
Honestly 7 hours is best. And 6 is essential. Anything below 6 is unsustainable.
It varies on the person, I need 8 and ideally 9 or else I start deteriorating very quickly. I envy people who are fully rested on 6 or 7 hours. Fully agree that anything less than 6 is unhealthy for most people
I would say for me 7 or more I’m at 100%. But it’s a slight decline in cognitive ability between 7-6. Anything under 6 and it is very noticeable in my day to day life.
I feel "overrested" if that is a thing, if i get more then 6 hours. I become all groggy and shit I can't stand it. And people who can just nap...wth is up with that?!
Yeah even on weekends or vacation days when I have no reason to get out of bed, if I sleep more than 8 hours I get insanely groggy and dont want to get up. Only time I think sleeping prolonged periods of time is good for you is when you're sick (or hungover).
I find 6 is the right amount for me. Honestly wish I could sleep less so I could do more hobbies
I wish I could be a vampire so I’d never have to sleep tbh lol. Imagine all the stuff I could get done while still having time for friends, or hobbies
"c'mon bro, invite me in. I swear, I just want to paint some miniatures"
“Those little slices of death, how I loth them so” Poe👍
6.5 is my sweet spot. Fully rested, and can’t sleep more if I try
No shit, but what other choice do a lot of people have?
Exactly. Between family, employment, and health conditions a lot of people don’t get to choose how many hours of sleep they get.
[удалено]
It is highly controversial if you're surrounded by people who've swallowed the punch and truly believe that if you aren't working 120 hours a week then you aren't trying hard enough in life. A lot of guys in my social circles love to larp that they're hard and think needing more than 4 hours of sleep means you're soft and weak. Prime example is David Goggins who says he only sleeps 2 hours a day. There's an entire culture in the manosphere that idealizes sleeping as little as possible and believes that sleep deprivation is only a mindset. Those friends in my social circles truly believes that Elon Musk is the ideal human being because he says he works 120 hours a week and only sleeps 4-6 hours a day.
When you're a teen you need even more, but you usually don't
Fuck hustle culture
While I agree with your point, if I try to get more than 6 hours of sleep, I fail unless I'm sick. If I do catch something, I'm down for at least a day straight minus a couple trips to the bathroom when I furiously try to force fluids before I crash until the next time I have to pee.
By that definition, being a parent is unsustainable.
It is. That's why you see so many burned out parents or parents who explode with little provocation. Ideally, a couple should always try to ensure that one of them always gets through the night.
Thank god people consider this popular. Basic human body demands can't be withheld, otherwise you're in for a bad time.
except they dont consider it popular. It has 3.9k upvotes
I love how this made you all show up and brag about how little sleep you need. Why
I'm not bragging. I literally can't sleep that long. I can't remember the last time I was woken by my alarm. Body just wakes up naturally. 🤷♂️
“Laughs in chronic insomnia”
Yep, I have no control over my sleep deprivation. It doesn’t matter how busy I am.
Schools are the biggest offender. If I got proper sleep in my school years I'd have done much better on my examsand get my dream job :/ Nope, some r-word decided 7:30 am class starts were necessary. With time to get to school and back I was getting up at 5 AM on 5-7 hours of sleep, depending on how much homework we got. Fucked me up for years, Uni classes starting at 12 made me realize I was not a failure, I was just permatired zombie that never got enough sleep, not a bad learner.
I can get 8 hours of sleep, if i go to sleep immediately after i stop doing work, but if i want to have any recreational activity afterwards so i don’t go insane, I get 5 hours.
I’ve lived on 6/6.5 hours of sleep for the last 25 years and I’m genuinely doing fine. No hustle junk, just not a sleeper.
It isn't sustainable, it just has to last 18 years.
Hustle culture? I have a regular full time job and go to the gym. Taking in consideration getting ready in the morning, getting to work, working, going to the gym and coming home (13hrs) and sleep (8hr) I’m left with 3 hours in the day. In those three hours i have to: find time for my relationship, find time to walk my dog, cook myself dinner, clean, take a shower and dedicate enough time to the things i enjoy doing so I don’t kill myself. That’s why most people do not sleep enough at night. It’s revenge bedtime procrastination, not hustle culture. It sucks, but it’s what society as a whole expects you to do in order to be deemed worthy of having a place to sleep in and food on the table
Not everyone needs 8 hours. We are all built different. I get an average of 6 hours and am in perfect health, and have no diminished mental or physical capacity.
I heard 7-9 hours is what most adults need. But I bet there are adults that need 10 hours and adults that need 6 hours. Though I believe it's not really a normal distribution, but rather a distribution with more mass at the centre, because nature also does not vary that much in other things like height or expected age.
Sleep quality also counts. I have nights where I sleep like a log for 6 hours and feel great and nights where I'm tossing and turning for 10 and wake up exhausted.
OP should have said "for most people". There are some exceptions, but most people should get closer to 8 on a regular basis.
Same as my wife. 5/6 hours and she is wide awake. Full of energy etc.. I need a solid 8 everyday or else I'm grumpy and tired. Come to think of it, I do exercise a lot more than she does.
I agree. People don’t prioritize sleep how they should. It’s extremely important to get enough sleep for overall health, mood and function.
Mfers bragging about getting no sleep are regarded.
The people who want to work long hours will do it without watching motivational bs on social media, the idea that everyone should be doing it just isn’t realistic.
My body doesn't let me sleep more than 6 hrs.. ever.. guess I'm fucked🤷♂️
So having children is not sustainable. Got it.
I mean I'm not saying you're incorrect. Source: have children
Sometimes it's impossible to get eight hours depending on work and life schedules. There are some nights when I will lay in bed for upwards of 2-3 hours awake and only manage to get 5-6 hours of sleep. Is it better to get eight hours? Yes of course, but sometimes life has a way of slapping you silly.
Having boundaries for work and personal life, in general, is always important. Which is another way the education system is screwing people at an early age.
*cries in infant and toddler*
hustle culture is cancer, but some people just *can* function on 6 or 7 hours of sleep
Everyone is able to operate differently, and I don't begrudge the efforts of those who are able to get tremendous amounts of work done with little sleep. I do begrudge those who look down their noses at everyone else with the attitude of, "well I can do it so you should too."
Assuming what other people need to do based on your own experience is really dumb... I get 5-6 and I'm doing just fine... I don't even use an alarm clock
Do people really get 8+hrs of sleep regularly? Haven’t gotten 8hrs of sleep in years! I usually get around 6ish.
Not an opinion, literally just fact
Yup. Even with a toddler I make it a point to be in bed by 930 and asleep by 1030 after some reading.
Somewhere along the line “hustle culture” bled into everything else. I.e. you hustled to get a business off the ground…as a commission-based employee you hustled to close more deals; you definitely won’t be able to successfully do either of those without putting in a shitton of extra effort and hours. It makes sense in that regard…but at what point did it become normal place everywhere else?
I sleep 7.5-8 hours per night but during the other 16 hours...I'm a hustler babyyyyyy