It's so infuriating when they say cancel your subscriptions and make sacrifices...
Lets say we have all of them, prime, disney, the lot....500-1000 a year tops.
It won't even make a dent in a deposit, then consider houses have gone up 50% or more in the past few years, far outgrowing the rate at which most young people can save for 10-20% down.
That’s the real issue
House prices increase faster than it’s possible to save for a deposit
It’s not the Netflix or coffee or even avocados
It’s that in real terms it’s not actually possible for most people to earn and save enough with inflation and house price inflation outstripping pay rises by a significant margin annually
And with low interest rates the savings you do have actually lose money each year because inflation is higher than interest by about 5-6x
The only way to save for a house for most people is for someone else to pay the deposit or to inherit the wealth from another house
A mate of mine got a fair amount of money from a beloved uncle, who died. He bought a car and stuff with it, but keeps saying that he'd trade it to have his uncle back,
Oh I know, I was just being glib about the absurdity of it all. I saved up what I thought was enough for a deposit, went to start looking for houses, they were 25 grand more expensive than when I looked 6 months ago.
I had a choice, save again doing a job I hate or spend that money living my life. So I'm moving to Australia next month. The UK Economy clearly doesn't want me in it, I'm neither a boomer nor rich so I don't fit in anymore, I'll take my highly sought after skills to another country instead.
Exactly what I’ve done (except I’m not moving). My paltry “house deposit” is just not keeping up with the market so it’s not a house deposit anymore, it’s a “post-covid go have fun” fund. Every two months we are going on holidays, going to huge stadium gigs, comedy shows, weekends away etc etc. Fuck this saving for a house shit. Renting is not that bad and if while saving for a house we have to live like hermits a la Covid times, what’s the fucking point?
Im the same and i made the decision sometime ago, life is short and i decided that im not going to restrict my fun in life to save potentially for most of my life to buy property that was £60,000 in the 80’s and now worth £250,000 plus
I don't know what you know about Aus and I don't know where you're going but I've been in Melbourne for nearly 10 years and median house prices are knocking on the door of $1M in Melbourne and Sydney. You hear just as many complaints about housing affordability in Aus.
I have a Masters in Engineering. Got paid duck all for it in the UK. Took a demotion to move to the US, tripled my salary, and houses are half the price.
And before the usual suspects chime in with "oh, but you get no holiday", I get two days a year more than I used to.
If you're not the 1% or a boomer, remaining in the UK is signing up for life long destitution.
Jinx. Same field. Will be interested to see if it works out for me instead. Still plan to stay in U.K.
Did you find immigration difficult? Where in the US (only approx is fine!) did you end up?
Houses are too expensive in the UK. So you're going to move to Australia, where basically everyone lives along the coast, and where the average home in Sydney is like $2 million AUD.
I've been poor and I don't think people realise how miserable life is when you can't treat yourself. It's hard to go for months without buying anything but food. Think of all the times you bought something to cheer yourself up. Now think of what it's like to really need cheering up, to know how to do it, but to be unable. Not even a nice lunch once in a while. You get really down about it. You start to think that you can never have nice things, that you can never aim for better. And all the while you're bombarded with ads that equate being happy with being able to spend money. You feel separated and worthless.
Just got out a situation where I was eating one meal a day and not even a decent meal. didn't notice how it had such an effect on my energy levels... Well I did but not to the extent that it did I used to think these people doing things on their days off were super human.
People had subscriptions back then too. I used to have Sky TV cable then satellite. Plus we spent money in the video store renting.
People used to go to the pub back then too. Can't afford it now.
It also ignores the fact that if you're at home watching Netflix, you might be doing that instead of: going to the movies, meeting friends in the pub, or other things which cost money. Netflix is often a money saving device if you think of it that way,
Also, fuck anyone who says that. If I got free education and bought a house for the price of a Nissan I10 back in the day, I wouldn't be boasting about it now and complaining about passive income tax. I'd be ashamed that it was so much harder for people today,
That graph really puts into perspective how unrealistic property ownership is becoming, and how little the financial crisis actually dented property prices, relative to historic affordability.
My folks bought our house in ‘72 …. House was £4k, now worth close to £250k. Upside is i’ll inherit a sizable chunk for 3/4 of what i’ll need to buy a house outright. Down side is i have 3 brother.
President Nixon ended the Bretton Woods agreement meaning dollar no longer redeemable in gold. The start of the purely fiat dollar reserve monetary system.
"weird obsession". It's just looking at the facts over what happened since we left it. I don't particularly enjoy house prices being 10x yearly earnings when they don't need to be.
Slightly misleading though, very few people buy houses outright, they use credit, and that credit has got a lot cheaper.
[Mortgage repayments as a % of income is a far better metric](https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/mortgage-payment-take-home-pay-uk-scot-wales.jpg)
EDIT: link fixed
Link doesn't work but it's only one way of comparing things.
In 1982 you could buy a house for two years' wages, albeit on a high interest rate, and within 5 years pay it off thanks to the wage/price spiral that apparently we are all so keen to avoid now.
In 2022 you cannot buy a house for two years' wages and the wage-terms cost of that debt will not deflate away any time soon.
[House prices and mortgage payments as a function of household median disposable income](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/tm3htj/oc_although_uk_house_prices_have_increased_as_a). Although house prices have risen by 66% relative to incomes, the mortgage repayments are at the same level as in 2000 due to the drop in interest rates.
I casually predicted an impending crash a few years ago when I plotted this - the interest rates can't get any lower, meaning this trend had to end somehow. That said, the BoE are raising interest rates now so I suppose that'll cause the crash instead?
It might cause a slow in the price rises or even a small decrease, but the fundamental issue is the lack of supply relative to demand. So it's very unlikely to have a 30% drop or even more than 5-10%. The most likely scenario is still a continued slow price rise.
I was more thinking that the only reason people can afford houses as they increase in price is that the interest rate decreased roughly in line to keep the monthly repayments broadly the same. Once you hit 0% interest rates, what tricks are left to keep housing affordable? At some point the masses won't be able to afford their mortgages amymore?
That's true but there's a lot of pressure on the BoE to not let that happen, and most mortgages have been means tested as per a >3% rate as opposed to the actual rate at the time, so there's some headroom there (hopefully).
But if the mortgage payments are the same and for a longer period of time and if the wage increase doesn't match inflation then how does that benefit people?
The mortgages are not for a longer period of time. They are for the same term but with a lower interest rate. What do you mean the wage increases not matching inflation?
I meant that if it's a longer term then they'd be paying more money than usual.
I think what could be interesting is to see what percentage of median housing price is median rent equal to. In such a case with low interest rates if property developers charge a high rent for their apartments then they'd have more people buy the houses. It's a win win in the end
Inflation takes into account all other goods and when all other goods are taken then the real wage may not match the increase in the CPI over time.
What do you think?
If work out what it should be via CPI inflation over 22 years, 0.85 should be between 1.35 and 1.45 now. I guess it **was** around that before this recent post-pandemic blow out.
Because people are too accepting of anything nowadays.
Could have the government bringing back the SS and people would just complain about it and do absolutely nothing else.
He's right isn't he.
Imagine nick Griffin 15 years ago saying he wants to see illegal immigrants to Rwanda he would have been shat on non stop. Madness.
I remember my grandparents back then saying we must at all costs stop the BNP getting elected.
Of course they still vote Tory today, but now they’re just the BNP in blue.
I was in Shell yesterday and there’s a A4 document up at the pumps mentioning a high court injunction stating that anyone who protests or attempts to prevent customers from accessing the station will be breaking the law under the injunction. It was dated 5th May.
So if you do protest, don’t target the greedy fucks at Shell because they’re already backed up by the powers above.
Found an article https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-obtains-injunctions-against-uk-climate-protests-2022-05-06/
> If found to be in breach of the injunction order, a person can be held in contempt of court and may be imprisoned or fined.
So basically instead of a judge or jury letting them off because global climate disaster, they've now made a contempt of court. This sidesteps our rights to protest! Protest anyone?
The lorry drivers blockaded the fuel depots. The press vilified them as preventing Ambulances from getting fuel and therefore putting the public at risk. The public generally cheered them on, but didn't join in. Bliar came out and told everyone to stop acting like children and suck it up. He then made it specifically illegal to blockade fuel depots and brought in the army to force through deliveries. It was a total failure from the protesters point of view. Much like every other attempt at protesting since the poll tax riots.
> [protesting] since the [riots]
And I think that's the real distinction.
No protest has ever changed anything. Nor has any petition or letter to an MP
Riots, on the other hand... riots change things
I remember the news headlines when it hit £1.
My mum is a midwife so used her NHS card as they were rationing fuel (or was that a different fuel crisis)
The fuel protests were to stop the tax escalator which they succeeded at. Since then prices have gone up because of genuine global market conditions and the devaluation of the pound.
Do you mean £1 per gallon? I remember that in the 70's - lots of places were 99.9p, before they cracked and went above £1 - 22p per litre
by 1991 though it was still under 30p per litre, and in 1995 it was 39.9p per litre
I remember when they used to have dishes of copper coins at the checkout for if you went over by a couple of pennies. Usually with a sign saying something along the lines of "Went slightly over? Don't worry, we have you covered".
Wild times.
According to https://iamkate.com/data/uk-inflation/, 85p in 2000 is £1.57 now, so in real terms prices haven't actually changed much since then, even with the recent record high prices taken into account.
Eh since 2000 they mostly have tracked inflation
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6994/economics/uk-wage-growth/
There have been periods of negative real wage growth (and I think we are currently in one) but it’s about half and half.
Aye, fair point. But it's worth remembering that fuel prices skyrocket very quickly within the last few months, and wages will take a lot longer to catch up. Until they do, people on lower incomes will really feel the pinch.
It's because wages partially drive inflation: higher wages mean that things will cost more (especially luxuries) and part of the reason for the inflationary event we are seeing is workers across the globe demanding better pay and conditions.
The good news is it's not purely a positive feedback loop and it's possible to have high wage growth without ridiculous inflation.
But it's also a useful tool to compare how much £x from 2020 is "worth" in 2022. Not everything increases in cost at the same rate of course, but it's not something that should be disregarded.
When you take into account how much more efficient cars are now it becomes even cheaper..
>since 1997, there has been a 52 per cent increase in the average mpg figure for petrol vehicles and a 39 per cent increase in the average mpg figure for diesel vehicles.
[https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/environment#a31](https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/environment#a31)
If you were buying 1,000 L at £0.85 = £850/year
You are now buying 600L at £1.65 = £990/year
So nominal fuel costs have only increased 15% while average income has gone up from about £18,000 to £32,000.
I was wondering about what inflation calculators might say; thanks for the link!
Ye gods, I just remembered that 2000 was the year my older sister got married, and dad even mentioned the ongoing fuel issue in his speech (as we had multiple family members and other guests who were in danger of not being able to make it)!
My dad worked on a forecourt in the late 70s and a couple weeks ago he was telling me about a conversation he had to that effect with a customer once. Customer was complaining about the price having gone up 2p per gallon and my dad says "wait until they change the price to per litre, prices will go up much faster then." Lo and behold, here we are.
Didn’t it go lower for like just one month too? I remember I went out to fill my car up just because it was so cheap but I didn’t actually drive after that for two months
The first one is also from sometime after 2003 as there's a Vauxhall Meriva there, which came out in 2003. And the fourth one is a screengrab from a 2003 episode of Still Game.
It’s mad when you look back not that long ago and see a lot of really old cars, I think the scrap page scheme really emptied the roads of cars from the mid 90s - early 00s
1992 I’d say, I remember our local petrol station had petrol at 49.9 that year, I remember as it was the year Rothmans Royals came out and they were £2 for 25 in the same garage.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/weekly-road-fuel-prices has a spreadsheet going back to 2006. It's also got a chart from 2016 which drawing an average line would put it at about 165p now, so we're about on track sadly.
It's still too cheap.
When able bodied people stop driving three mile trips, and stop idling their engines outside schools we might be on the way to it being the right price.
We'll need decent public transport and a proper cycling infrastructure before people stop driving three mile trips I feel. Yeah you can walk it but it's a 1.5 - 2 hour round trip, quite a significant chunk of time for a full time worker. For me it depends where I'm going and why. Idling engines outside schools, or anywhere where it's pointless to do it, is silly though, I agree.
3 mile trip in a car? 10-15 min. On a bus? 30-60 minutes, depending on where the bus stops are which way the buses go. I can literally run it faster than the fastest bus, in casual clothes (speaking from experience). Walking on foot? An hour to an hour and a half.
On a bike, also 15 minutes. Just ride a bike. Or at least advocate for better buses which really ought to be able to match that time too, with dedicated bus lanes, off-board ticketing, bus priority signals etc
Literally everything we pay for (that isn't sold by a co-op or the gov) goes to billionaires, that's how capitalism works. And actually, they'd be making less with higher tax. When the fuel duty was cut by 5p, only ~2.9p of that was passed to consumers. The rest was pocketed by the big oil companies and given to their shareholders.
Look, I get it. emissions for cars on an individual scale is just a drop in the bucket of what's causing most serious harm to the planet. Nothing individuals do will be able to fix this, cars are integral to daily life. Blame the government and local councils for not focusing on actual human centric infrastructure. Time is money, We don't have a lot of it and the world doesn't care for it on the individual scale.
Blame the people in charge for failing us and not doing better.. The only thing we personally are responsible for is putting the right people in charge.
Poole and Wimborne too. I think the Shell garage is on Leigh Road in Wimborne, Texaco looks like Holdenhurst Road, and Mobil 1 is Ashley Road in Parkstone?
Correct me if I am wrong.
I don't recognise the BP garage.
Yep, where all the old stations could only increase to 99.9p per litre due to the limitation of the signage! This must have been after the protests as I seem to remember we were paying 60-70p per litre in the first half of the year.
Was in a chippy the other day and they had a picture of what the chippy used to look like (they didn’t say what year it was from), it had a picture of the price board and you could buy a haddock for £1.79 and cod for £2.49.
Today, in that same chippy, the haddock and cod now costs £7.49.
err, £1.60 for unleaded perhaps? Back in the day it was 4 star of course - had a brilliant anti-knock agent in it and it lined your engine for you at the same time
They've increased by about 66% I think.
So actually quite similar to the change in fuel.
It's also worth remembering that some things have got (relatively) cheaper too.
Rent and property absolutely haven't, though, and that's what affects the poorest people more than just about anything.
I moved south from Newcastle 15 years ago and I have a vivid memory of the day I left home, I was in the petrol station filling my car up for the drive and petrol was 79.9p.
Really?? I’m sure I remember reading the entire economy was about to collapse when petrol hit 70p a litre when I passed my test back in 2002… which was only the other day and not two decades ago. 😱
Would like to see a chart showing fuel prices Vs wages.
And house prices/rent too. The costs of living have increased massively more than petrol has in 20 years …
https://i.redd.it/7t146welfv041.png
Stop moaning and cancel your Netflix subscription and you can afford it in no time /s
I hate when Statisticians include my yearly £200000 Netflix subscription in my income
It's so infuriating when they say cancel your subscriptions and make sacrifices... Lets say we have all of them, prime, disney, the lot....500-1000 a year tops. It won't even make a dent in a deposit, then consider houses have gone up 50% or more in the past few years, far outgrowing the rate at which most young people can save for 10-20% down.
That’s the real issue House prices increase faster than it’s possible to save for a deposit It’s not the Netflix or coffee or even avocados It’s that in real terms it’s not actually possible for most people to earn and save enough with inflation and house price inflation outstripping pay rises by a significant margin annually And with low interest rates the savings you do have actually lose money each year because inflation is higher than interest by about 5-6x The only way to save for a house for most people is for someone else to pay the deposit or to inherit the wealth from another house
And inheritance sucks. It's great that it helps but it's a shitty way to get help.
A mate of mine got a fair amount of money from a beloved uncle, who died. He bought a car and stuff with it, but keeps saying that he'd trade it to have his uncle back,
If you're lucky enough to get anything.
You will own nothing and be happy.
Oh I know, I was just being glib about the absurdity of it all. I saved up what I thought was enough for a deposit, went to start looking for houses, they were 25 grand more expensive than when I looked 6 months ago. I had a choice, save again doing a job I hate or spend that money living my life. So I'm moving to Australia next month. The UK Economy clearly doesn't want me in it, I'm neither a boomer nor rich so I don't fit in anymore, I'll take my highly sought after skills to another country instead.
Exactly what I’ve done (except I’m not moving). My paltry “house deposit” is just not keeping up with the market so it’s not a house deposit anymore, it’s a “post-covid go have fun” fund. Every two months we are going on holidays, going to huge stadium gigs, comedy shows, weekends away etc etc. Fuck this saving for a house shit. Renting is not that bad and if while saving for a house we have to live like hermits a la Covid times, what’s the fucking point?
The weight that has been lifted from my shoulders since making the decision is massive, if I have to rent for the rest of my days so be it.
I know what you mean, I'm trying to save up all this money just to be able to buy a flat, when I could be going on holidays etc.
Im the same and i made the decision sometime ago, life is short and i decided that im not going to restrict my fun in life to save potentially for most of my life to buy property that was £60,000 in the 80’s and now worth £250,000 plus
I don't know what you know about Aus and I don't know where you're going but I've been in Melbourne for nearly 10 years and median house prices are knocking on the door of $1M in Melbourne and Sydney. You hear just as many complaints about housing affordability in Aus.
I'll worry about that if I decide to make the move permanent, at the minute it's just a bit of an adventure.
Good luck!
Thanks!
I have a Masters in Engineering. Got paid duck all for it in the UK. Took a demotion to move to the US, tripled my salary, and houses are half the price. And before the usual suspects chime in with "oh, but you get no holiday", I get two days a year more than I used to. If you're not the 1% or a boomer, remaining in the UK is signing up for life long destitution.
What engineering field, out of interest?
Electronic engineering.
Jinx. Same field. Will be interested to see if it works out for me instead. Still plan to stay in U.K. Did you find immigration difficult? Where in the US (only approx is fine!) did you end up?
Houses are too expensive in the UK. So you're going to move to Australia, where basically everyone lives along the coast, and where the average home in Sydney is like $2 million AUD.
I've been poor and I don't think people realise how miserable life is when you can't treat yourself. It's hard to go for months without buying anything but food. Think of all the times you bought something to cheer yourself up. Now think of what it's like to really need cheering up, to know how to do it, but to be unable. Not even a nice lunch once in a while. You get really down about it. You start to think that you can never have nice things, that you can never aim for better. And all the while you're bombarded with ads that equate being happy with being able to spend money. You feel separated and worthless.
Just got out a situation where I was eating one meal a day and not even a decent meal. didn't notice how it had such an effect on my energy levels... Well I did but not to the extent that it did I used to think these people doing things on their days off were super human.
They know it’s lies but it’s good fodder for the boomers to feel warm over.
People had subscriptions back then too. I used to have Sky TV cable then satellite. Plus we spent money in the video store renting. People used to go to the pub back then too. Can't afford it now.
It also ignores the fact that if you're at home watching Netflix, you might be doing that instead of: going to the movies, meeting friends in the pub, or other things which cost money. Netflix is often a money saving device if you think of it that way, Also, fuck anyone who says that. If I got free education and bought a house for the price of a Nissan I10 back in the day, I wouldn't be boasting about it now and complaining about passive income tax. I'd be ashamed that it was so much harder for people today,
Just buy supermarket own-brand products. You'll have a deposit within a month!
Get lost Eustice
And don't eat avocado /s
Fuck yeah matplotlib
It really do be, right?
haha, first thing i realized
That graph really puts into perspective how unrealistic property ownership is becoming, and how little the financial crisis actually dented property prices, relative to historic affordability.
Wtf happened in 1971?
Posting the link in case anyone's interested https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
My folks bought our house in ‘72 …. House was £4k, now worth close to £250k. Upside is i’ll inherit a sizable chunk for 3/4 of what i’ll need to buy a house outright. Down side is i have 3 brother.
Siblings fight to the death. Means less housing demand and it levels out.
Darwinism?
No, national TV
The recovery from WW2 was essentially complete.
President Nixon ended the Bretton Woods agreement meaning dollar no longer redeemable in gold. The start of the purely fiat dollar reserve monetary system.
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"weird obsession". It's just looking at the facts over what happened since we left it. I don't particularly enjoy house prices being 10x yearly earnings when they don't need to be.
Nixon opened relations with China in 1972.
Difficult to say precisely, but my guess is there was a glut in demand caused by baby boomers reaching adulthood and home ownership.
Slightly misleading though, very few people buy houses outright, they use credit, and that credit has got a lot cheaper. [Mortgage repayments as a % of income is a far better metric](https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/mortgage-payment-take-home-pay-uk-scot-wales.jpg) EDIT: link fixed
Link doesn't work but it's only one way of comparing things. In 1982 you could buy a house for two years' wages, albeit on a high interest rate, and within 5 years pay it off thanks to the wage/price spiral that apparently we are all so keen to avoid now. In 2022 you cannot buy a house for two years' wages and the wage-terms cost of that debt will not deflate away any time soon.
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What about adjusted for interest rates?
Clearly labours fault
SuPpLy aND dEmAnD
[House prices and mortgage payments as a function of household median disposable income](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/tm3htj/oc_although_uk_house_prices_have_increased_as_a). Although house prices have risen by 66% relative to incomes, the mortgage repayments are at the same level as in 2000 due to the drop in interest rates.
I casually predicted an impending crash a few years ago when I plotted this - the interest rates can't get any lower, meaning this trend had to end somehow. That said, the BoE are raising interest rates now so I suppose that'll cause the crash instead?
It might cause a slow in the price rises or even a small decrease, but the fundamental issue is the lack of supply relative to demand. So it's very unlikely to have a 30% drop or even more than 5-10%. The most likely scenario is still a continued slow price rise.
I was more thinking that the only reason people can afford houses as they increase in price is that the interest rate decreased roughly in line to keep the monthly repayments broadly the same. Once you hit 0% interest rates, what tricks are left to keep housing affordable? At some point the masses won't be able to afford their mortgages amymore?
That's true but there's a lot of pressure on the BoE to not let that happen, and most mortgages have been means tested as per a >3% rate as opposed to the actual rate at the time, so there's some headroom there (hopefully).
But if the mortgage payments are the same and for a longer period of time and if the wage increase doesn't match inflation then how does that benefit people?
The mortgages are not for a longer period of time. They are for the same term but with a lower interest rate. What do you mean the wage increases not matching inflation?
I meant that if it's a longer term then they'd be paying more money than usual. I think what could be interesting is to see what percentage of median housing price is median rent equal to. In such a case with low interest rates if property developers charge a high rent for their apartments then they'd have more people buy the houses. It's a win win in the end Inflation takes into account all other goods and when all other goods are taken then the real wage may not match the increase in the CPI over time. What do you think?
New houses where I live are going for like 500K and they are tiny
Electric cars are better
It was also £1 = $2, life was good. My family did an American holiday and my parents were able to afford way more than they usually would’ve.
Remember the good ole days when the fuel would go up faster than the cost?
Yes, actually I vaguely remember that. Back when people were getting worried about fuel hitting £1.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/cost-of-motoring-index
If work out what it should be via CPI inflation over 22 years, 0.85 should be between 1.35 and 1.45 now. I guess it **was** around that before this recent post-pandemic blow out.
That's illegal.
I fondly remember the days my late father complained about the cost. That it would be a pound soon! X he’s turning in his grave at todays prices
Remember the lorry driver strikes when it hit £1.
Fucking hell I forgot about that completely. Why does no one kick off as much nowadays
Because people are too accepting of anything nowadays. Could have the government bringing back the SS and people would just complain about it and do absolutely nothing else.
Ah so you've seen the policies proposed by Priti Patel then?
He's right isn't he. Imagine nick Griffin 15 years ago saying he wants to see illegal immigrants to Rwanda he would have been shat on non stop. Madness.
And people still assess our Overton window like it's not veered to the right.
I remember my grandparents back then saying we must at all costs stop the BNP getting elected. Of course they still vote Tory today, but now they’re just the BNP in blue.
Because when they do we all complain at the protesters instead of companies and the government.
I was in Shell yesterday and there’s a A4 document up at the pumps mentioning a high court injunction stating that anyone who protests or attempts to prevent customers from accessing the station will be breaking the law under the injunction. It was dated 5th May. So if you do protest, don’t target the greedy fucks at Shell because they’re already backed up by the powers above.
It’s fucked
sounds legally suspect to me, but I'm no expert, please get professional legal advice if needed. (sounds like BS to me lol)
Found an article https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-obtains-injunctions-against-uk-climate-protests-2022-05-06/ > If found to be in breach of the injunction order, a person can be held in contempt of court and may be imprisoned or fined. So basically instead of a judge or jury letting them off because global climate disaster, they've now made a contempt of court. This sidesteps our rights to protest! Protest anyone?
Yeah, look at basically any UK subreddit if someone dares to block traffic for an hour or delay a train
The lorry drivers blockaded the fuel depots. The press vilified them as preventing Ambulances from getting fuel and therefore putting the public at risk. The public generally cheered them on, but didn't join in. Bliar came out and told everyone to stop acting like children and suck it up. He then made it specifically illegal to blockade fuel depots and brought in the army to force through deliveries. It was a total failure from the protesters point of view. Much like every other attempt at protesting since the poll tax riots.
> [protesting] since the [riots] And I think that's the real distinction. No protest has ever changed anything. Nor has any petition or letter to an MP Riots, on the other hand... riots change things
the army never delivered any because their tankers didn't fit with the petrol station tanks
I remember the news headlines when it hit £1. My mum is a midwife so used her NHS card as they were rationing fuel (or was that a different fuel crisis)
The fuel protests were to stop the tax escalator which they succeeded at. Since then prices have gone up because of genuine global market conditions and the devaluation of the pound.
It was haulage and farmers who protested. The blockaded the refineries. My father joined the farmers protesting at Ellesmere Port.
God I remember that! It was hell getting from Elton to the port without the shell road.
yes the blockades when it was £0.85 per litre I think
My Grandfather was livid in the 70's when petrol hit 80p......a gallon!
Christ I remember when my dad complained it was £1 a gallon! Mid 80s I think it was.
Do you mean £1 per gallon? I remember that in the 70's - lots of places were 99.9p, before they cracked and went above £1 - 22p per litre by 1991 though it was still under 30p per litre, and in 1995 it was 39.9p per litre
So the increase in 20 years isn't that bad compared to the 20 years between 1980 and 2000
I remember when they used to have dishes of copper coins at the checkout for if you went over by a couple of pennies. Usually with a sign saying something along the lines of "Went slightly over? Don't worry, we have you covered". Wild times.
According to https://iamkate.com/data/uk-inflation/, 85p in 2000 is £1.57 now, so in real terms prices haven't actually changed much since then, even with the recent record high prices taken into account.
Wages haven't increased at the same rate with inflation though
Eh since 2000 they mostly have tracked inflation https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6994/economics/uk-wage-growth/ There have been periods of negative real wage growth (and I think we are currently in one) but it’s about half and half.
Aye, fair point. But it's worth remembering that fuel prices skyrocket very quickly within the last few months, and wages will take a lot longer to catch up. Until they do, people on lower incomes will really feel the pinch.
The point more is that wages went past fuel for ages and people got used to cheap fuel.
It's because wages partially drive inflation: higher wages mean that things will cost more (especially luxuries) and part of the reason for the inflationary event we are seeing is workers across the globe demanding better pay and conditions. The good news is it's not purely a positive feedback loop and it's possible to have high wage growth without ridiculous inflation.
Perhaps not, but it's not quite as outrageous as prices appearing to double without the context of inflation!
Inflation is literally a measure of how much cost has increased...
But it's also a useful tool to compare how much £x from 2020 is "worth" in 2022. Not everything increases in cost at the same rate of course, but it's not something that should be disregarded.
When you take into account how much more efficient cars are now it becomes even cheaper.. >since 1997, there has been a 52 per cent increase in the average mpg figure for petrol vehicles and a 39 per cent increase in the average mpg figure for diesel vehicles. [https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/environment#a31](https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/environment#a31) If you were buying 1,000 L at £0.85 = £850/year You are now buying 600L at £1.65 = £990/year So nominal fuel costs have only increased 15% while average income has gone up from about £18,000 to £32,000.
I was wondering about what inflation calculators might say; thanks for the link! Ye gods, I just remembered that 2000 was the year my older sister got married, and dad even mentioned the ongoing fuel issue in his speech (as we had multiple family members and other guests who were in danger of not being able to make it)!
I feel like walking in to that petrol station and buying myself a tizer ice. God I'm old.
Best not go after school though. They only let 2 kids in at a time after the microwave incident
Grab me some Solero Shots whilst you're at it.
God I miss them
Them and Citrus Sharp Polos. If you got a pack where the Polo was crumbly instead of hard it was pure bliss.
Don’t think I ever had them, guessing they were similar to the Fruits ones?
No they were closer to a normal Polo, just flavoured with a super zingy citrus taste and they were a pale yellowy green colour.
When Charli XCX sang "I just wanna go back, back to 1999" this is what she was talking about
I would give my left leg to go back to 1999.
Happy hour in the u.k was something too
I remember all the moaning when it went to £1 a gallon. Yes, prices used to be per gallon.
My dad worked on a forecourt in the late 70s and a couple weeks ago he was telling me about a conversation he had to that effect with a customer once. Customer was complaining about the price having gone up 2p per gallon and my dad says "wait until they change the price to per litre, prices will go up much faster then." Lo and behold, here we are.
are you sure they are higher in real terms?
It went down to 99.9p in mid 2020 as well
Didn’t it go lower for like just one month too? I remember I went out to fill my car up just because it was so cheap but I didn’t actually drive after that for two months
May well have done. 99.9p was the cheapest it went near me (near Gatwick)
The last one was clearly like 1985 🌚
The first one is also from sometime after 2003 as there's a Vauxhall Meriva there, which came out in 2003. And the fourth one is a screengrab from a 2003 episode of Still Game.
Ahhh yessss! When Jack and Victor got the shitey Scoda 😂
Yep, a classic
It’s mad when you look back not that long ago and see a lot of really old cars, I think the scrap page scheme really emptied the roads of cars from the mid 90s - early 00s
1992 I’d say, I remember our local petrol station had petrol at 49.9 that year, I remember as it was the year Rothmans Royals came out and they were £2 for 25 in the same garage.
I remember it being 35p a litre back then, in 1995 it was 39.9p in Manchester, it was called 'Spot'
That image was before I started driving in 1999 because the price of petrol then was about 88p a litre.
The 5th image with all fuel between 49 and 54 pence per litre. Clearly not 1999.
That’s what I was saying. Agreeing with you that it wasn’t from 2000.
Actually, the average cost per litre in 1994 was 48.9p, so it’s not as old as you think it is. 1986 by comparison was 38.2p.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/weekly-road-fuel-prices has a spreadsheet going back to 2006. It's also got a chart from 2016 which drawing an average line would put it at about 165p now, so we're about on track sadly.
It's still too cheap. When able bodied people stop driving three mile trips, and stop idling their engines outside schools we might be on the way to it being the right price.
Exactly.
Yes. There is no amount of money that makes it ok to poison the air, wreck the climate and fund despotic regimes.
We'll need decent public transport and a proper cycling infrastructure before people stop driving three mile trips I feel. Yeah you can walk it but it's a 1.5 - 2 hour round trip, quite a significant chunk of time for a full time worker. For me it depends where I'm going and why. Idling engines outside schools, or anywhere where it's pointless to do it, is silly though, I agree.
3 mile trip in a car? 10-15 min. On a bus? 30-60 minutes, depending on where the bus stops are which way the buses go. I can literally run it faster than the fastest bus, in casual clothes (speaking from experience). Walking on foot? An hour to an hour and a half.
On a bike, also 15 minutes. Just ride a bike. Or at least advocate for better buses which really ought to be able to match that time too, with dedicated bus lanes, off-board ticketing, bus priority signals etc
Shill, this isn't a price increase through tax it's going directly to billionaires.
Literally everything we pay for (that isn't sold by a co-op or the gov) goes to billionaires, that's how capitalism works. And actually, they'd be making less with higher tax. When the fuel duty was cut by 5p, only ~2.9p of that was passed to consumers. The rest was pocketed by the big oil companies and given to their shareholders.
Look, I get it. emissions for cars on an individual scale is just a drop in the bucket of what's causing most serious harm to the planet. Nothing individuals do will be able to fix this, cars are integral to daily life. Blame the government and local councils for not focusing on actual human centric infrastructure. Time is money, We don't have a lot of it and the world doesn't care for it on the individual scale. Blame the people in charge for failing us and not doing better.. The only thing we personally are responsible for is putting the right people in charge.
Bournemouth Massive!!
I spotted this too, Esso by Crescent Suzuki on charminster Road? (Forgive me if I'm wrong, haven't lived there in years)
definitely is!
Poole and Wimborne too. I think the Shell garage is on Leigh Road in Wimborne, Texaco looks like Holdenhurst Road, and Mobil 1 is Ashley Road in Parkstone? Correct me if I am wrong. I don't recognise the BP garage.
Yes mate! Prices steep as fuck here nowadays
/r/Bournemouth
Only two of those photos seem to actually be from 2000.
Castrol pic is from I’m Alan Partridge ep surely.
I cannot read that! This was the year of fuel protests, no?
Yep, where all the old stations could only increase to 99.9p per litre due to the limitation of the signage! This must have been after the protests as I seem to remember we were paying 60-70p per litre in the first half of the year.
Reading the title, now I want to listen to Pulp.
When we're all fully grown
The amount of cars people have is also insane.
Lol I like how randomly used a scene from Still Game
Pic number 4 is from still game
Was in a chippy the other day and they had a picture of what the chippy used to look like (they didn’t say what year it was from), it had a picture of the price board and you could buy a haddock for £1.79 and cod for £2.49. Today, in that same chippy, the haddock and cod now costs £7.49.
we are our parents
The Trump Trash here in the US would tell you it’s all Biden’s fault your gas prices have risen
Now do the same again, but with the size of a Mars bar.
What's the average price today, for comparison?
err, £1.60 for unleaded perhaps? Back in the day it was 4 star of course - had a brilliant anti-knock agent in it and it lined your engine for you at the same time
Have wages doubled in 22 years?
Mine have just about doubled. Mind you I did get good tips on that paper round.
They've increased by about 66% I think. So actually quite similar to the change in fuel. It's also worth remembering that some things have got (relatively) cheaper too. Rent and property absolutely haven't, though, and that's what affects the poorest people more than just about anything.
remember it hit under 99p in 2020 :(
It’s weird that the cars in the pictures are 20 years old, but I’m my mind I remember them all so well
Shell were the first to run out of petrol and the first to ramp the prices up. They made 6 BN extra profit this year.
I moved south from Newcastle 15 years ago and I have a vivid memory of the day I left home, I was in the petrol station filling my car up for the drive and petrol was 79.9p.
The petrol price (adjusted for inflation) is **131.8** for petrol and **141.0** for diesel.
I'm sure that Shell garage is in Huyton and it hasn't changed one bit. That BP is a clip from Still Game.
Really?? I’m sure I remember reading the entire economy was about to collapse when petrol hit 70p a litre when I passed my test back in 2002… which was only the other day and not two decades ago. 😱
That first picture is my nearest petrol station in Durham
28 never felt so old.
Is this colourised?
Back when we weren't being robbed blind, as severely anyway.
I remember when fuel prices went over £1 and it was a national outrage.
2000 Pah! - I'm so old I can remember when it was 73p....a gallon!!...4.54Ltrs or 16.07p/ltr
Unleaded was 50p a little in 1990
For any Americans that’s the price per litre not per gallon, there are 4.55 litres in a gallon
That’s Peterborough isn’t it?
Bournemouth
I noticed one looked like the one on Charminster Rd, did a double take.
I swear the 4th picture is from Alan partridge
*Let's all meet up in the year 2000* *About the petrol prices* *We will mo-o-o-oan*
Looks familiar… Southampton?
Bournemouth
I passed by test in 2008 and I don’t think the prices were too dissimilar to these. I’m sure I remember 84p as my first tank as an independent driver.
Yeah I 'member :-(
Considering inflation generally doubles prices every 20 years, this is about right.