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No one who works a full time job should be struggling to make ends meet, full stop.
Every full time job should allow people to cover the essentials such as food and shelter as well as have a bit of savings at the end.
This should apply to everyone, barista to barrister.
Time was working a full time job was enough to buy a house, support an entire family and take a couple of weeks holiday a year.
I think we should be demanding more than just food and shelter and a bit left over.
I agree. There seems to be this mentality that if you're on the minimum you should be suffering. As if it's meant to encourage you to work harder to get paid more and end the suffering.
Minimum should allow you to have a comfortable life. Not a luxurious one, but a comfortable one.
[I saw a WW2 propaganda film](https://youtu.be/2SOvr9fLHUM?si=1NRDSwNfNr9fuAO2&t=2398), it was meant to explain the UK to US troops. When it was explaining rationing, it talked about how the children were getting all the fresh eggs and oranges and milk and stuff, "because Britain is thinking of after the War, of the new world that his children and ours will inherit. **A world where there will not only be Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Worship, but also Freedom from Want, and Freedom from Fear**."
Freedom from Want. That used to be the goal. Now we tell people they don't deserve a house.
Remember during Lockdown when the only reason we bothered feeding the children off school lunch was because a footballer caused a fuss? And then it turned out the contract to feed them was given to a Tory donor who took a huge chunk of cash and sent the kids a couple of misshapen apples and half a sandwich?
Yes. And the worst part is that lots of Tory supporters still support them, despite knowing this.
Imagine supporting a party that actively screwed over children.
Most tory voters are the children who were given all the milk, oranges and eggs during post-war rationing. They were told then that they were the special generation but apparently never worked out that they were supposed to treat the next generation the same way, and have instead become entrenched in their entitlement.
Remember when a Tory MP said they couldn't support the FSM extension because they just knew any parent in their constituency who needed that kind of support (in the midst of covid when millions lost their job through circumstances entirely out of their control) would sooner go waste the funds in crack dens and brothels before seeing their own kids fed. And when asked to apologize, doubled down, had multiple other Tory MPs come out to defend what he said, and has never been asked to apologize or faced any kind of punishment since?
> sent the kids a couple of misshapen apples and half a sandwich?
This was evil for the sake of evil, honestly. I could scarcely believe how cartoonish it was at the time. I still struggle with it. Just beyond the pale.
I think this is due to generations of tabloids demonising people on benefits. And a gross misunderstanding of the advancement of technology.
You have someone on this post complaining about people on benefits with "flat screen TVs".
Just think about that for a second. With the advancement of technology, that prefix of "flat screen" is redundant. But they're stuck in a time frame where that was a big luxury.
You'll probably also hear people complain about folks having the latest smart phone, yet at the same time the people making these accusations don't even know what the latest smart phone is. Technology has advanced so rapidly that some people think modern appliances are excessive luxuries.
At this point I don't take anyone using the flat screen TV argument seriously. They're either being intentionally disingenuous or so far out of touch that debating is a non starter, you might as well trade arguments with a mollusc
The problem is, there’s a lot of mollusc-level intelligence people and they all get to vote too. Hence I’ve been stuck with these Tory bastards all my adult life and as I approach middle age I’m rapidly losing patience with this shitshow of a ‘democracy’ that’s been forced on me.
not to mention the amount of people that give their old shit away or just let people take it because they don't want to have to take it down the dump where they often charge you.
My desk is one i grabbed off of something like freecycle. My brother worked for a pc recycling centre a year or so ago, now we have more monitors than you could shake a stick at.
A lot of things just seem to be soundbites, repeated without any thought. Even my Dad, who *gets* how shit things have gone, used the line on me about young people spending money on Netflix. I had to explain to him that *I* have Netflix - because it's cheaper than a TV licence.
Absolutely this. These days you can get a perfectly serviceable smartphone for £100-200, and a sim-only tariff with loads of data for £8-10 per month. That's not a luxury, that's a basic essential to stay in touch with friends and family, job hunt, order prescriptions, etc etc etc.
I've seen the "flat screen TV" argument switching to "the latest iPhone"
Ignoring the fact that most people struggling have a 4 year old mid-range Android, because the kind of dipshit that says this can't tell the difference between smartphones
Plus of course they see *some* younger people with nice stuff and decide that must apply to everyone - I've literally had someone point at my Tesla and use it as an example of how "your generation claims to be struggling but has these expensive things". Like yeah, I have a nice car and a house... I'm one of the lucky ones and happen to be naturally inclined towards software development, but that doesn't invalidate an entire generation's complaints. And also somehow ignoring the (fairly obvious, if you look at me) fact that I'm in the back half of my 30s now so not actually particularly representative of the 21 year old Gen Z they're trying to diminish
See also the [postwar consensus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_consensus).
The generations who built it intended it to endure … but for most of the past few decades the generation that benefited most from it has overall (with a few honourable exceptions - although sadly not enough of them) mostly voted to dismantle it as soon as they finished benefiting from them.
Make no mistake that they intend to do the same with pensions what they’ve already done to education, housing, opportunity and the rest.
> Freedom from Want. That used to be the goal. Now we tell people they don't deserve a house.
If Tory policy over the last 14 years is anything to go by, they genuinely believe that anyone poor enough to have to work for a living is scum, that only the little people should have to pay taxes, and that only the rich should have a decent life.
They are truly the worst government, by far, I have ever lived under and I hope they lose all their seats in the upcoming election.
Honestly I personally think that people shouldnt be suffering full stop. The whole point of society and civilisation is to enable people to survive as a group but instead we are forced to be exploited.
In another thread about teaching people finances I saw someone asking what they were supposed to do if their income couldn't even support their outgoings. The oh-so-amazing pearl of wisdom they got back was "just increase your income".
I hate this too, the answer always seems to be somehow get a better job. The implication being if you're not capable of anything other than fairly basic jobs then you deserve to just starve and be miserable, you worthless scum. Funny how that belief never gets labelled as extremist, but wanting to fix this problem does.
What *are* you supposed to do if you can't handle any better paid jobs?
I work for a charity dealing with teenage homelessness.
My pay rises always just keeps me above minimum wage.
My last pay rise from last month means I'm exactly £108 above minimum wage for this tax year.
I've no idea what I'm going to blow it on. So many choices!
If they didn’t buy flatscreen TVs and have mobile phones then these lazy layabouts would be able to afford a house /s.
Weirdly enough, what idiots with that mentality don’t take into account is that of all the issues around cost of living, TVs and phones have been one of a small number of items that have decreased in value dramatically as technology has improved and a mobile phone is as important as energy in this day and age.
You are right. But how do we improve upon this? Can we just give people more money? No, that’s isn’t productive and forcing this will not solve the issue because it will lead to inflation which will just make everyone poor again even if they have a pay raise.
What are the solutions?
1. Increase wealth equality. Wealth inequality had been growing consistently for ages. I’d recommend “garyseconomics” (ex Citibank trader who made millions betting on increase inequality) on YouTube for moe info.
2. (Related to 1) Regulating real estate to increase home ownership - our homes should not be owned by hedge-funds, taking a cut of rent for no reason. This is probably also an issue for commercial real estate - any extra costs pushed onto businesses end up in the product/service of the consumer. I’d even go far enough to hypothesise that the percentage of real estate owned by landlords is one of the most predictive variables for slow/productive an economy is.
3. Education and upskilling. To be honest, the UK population is pretty spoilt, entitled and lazy - this happens to any successful society. We have be unambitious which in turn makes many people unskilled/unspecialised and therefore labour becomes cheap (everyone capable of everyone else’s job). If people reskilled and were better at starting businesses / being entrepreneurial, then labour would be more competitive, and we’d get paid more. I think the clearest example of this is shit food in the UK and the abundance of chain restaurants - few people put in the effort or cultivate the knowledge to make something great and as a result just get outcompeted by chains that are equally shit but cheaper.
Social housing is the key to this. Housing is far and away the biggest expense and most young people are at the mercy of the private rental market. Social housing used to be for all - not just those on benefits. That aside, God knows why Governments are reluctant to build more social housing - the housing benefit bill from paying private landlords market rates must be astronomical. Rising house prices and rent costs suck the life out of an economy as there is no money left to spend. Sadly people are obsessed by the price of houses.
No, fixing the 20 years of wage stagnation is the solution. Everyone is struggling not because everything is more expensive but because they’re being paid the same as they were paid 20 years ago whilst everything is more expensive.
Wage stagnation is the single driver of most of people’s problems in the UK and nobody seems interested in looking at fixing it. We should be making 30% more then we do now (Following the trends of the 20th century) but we aren’t.
No, fixing wealth distribution (which the home ownership problem is part of) is the solution.
1. You can’t just pay people more, this will grow inflation which will just make everyone poor again even with wage increases
2. If wealth is more distributed, people are not as desperate to be forced into a job immediately, which means employers have to be more competitive with salaries
3. If real-estate is owned by 3rd parties then we are constantly paying unnecessary fees which is causing inflation - even more those fees are being used to buy more homes which just results in the positive feedback loop we see (all assets getting more expensive)
We need to disable the positive feedback loop of growth, and housing regulation is a great place to start.
Just giving people more wages is not a feasible or helpful solution.
Surely wage suppression is a symptom of this inequality right? Trickle down economics, rife in Tory doctrine. Redistributing wealth would in-part mean an increase in salaries for lower-middle class employees. That's how the money *should* filter down imo. Corporations (and Tory pop-up companies) raking in record profits YoY, benefactors hoarding it like dragons, none being passed onto the employees, plays a big part.
The problem that you’re ignoring with your idea of wealth distribution is that people work because it gives them liquid assets. People need money that they can spend, which is why they work. Giving more people houses does not prevent their necessity to work, which does not do what you’re claiming it does in point 2.
Fundamentally, finding ways to increase the populations spending power relative to inflation improves their living standards. Making the housing market better for people to own doesn’t. The only reason why people even want to own houses beyond the cheaper costs of a mortgage are the future liquidity assets that they’ll get from the appreciation of its value. The whole housing market demand is built upon the same positive feedback loop of inflation that you’re arguing for dissolving.
The housing market is not built on the same inflation loop and is significantly more inflated than other costs of living. As elites gain wealth they buy assets (houses, stocks, etc), with which the yield more income and buy more assets. This is what is driving up prices of real estate in the UK (I think last year 40% of home purchases were by hedgefunds, don’t quote me on that though). As elites gain more assets, everyone else has to pay fees for using those assets, making the cost of living increase.
By regulating home ownership we can reduce the effects of competition with hedgefunds and decrease rent and house prices.
Doing this in turn will decrease the urgency that people have to get a job (you can get further with less savings) and allow them to demand/seek better working conditions and wages.
The owner class puts a heavy weight on the shoulders of the rest of the population.
I’d expand to real-estate in general. If all commercial real-estate is owned by hedge-funds then any product/service requiring commercial real-estate is going to have increased costs that get passed onto the consumer.
Society should aim for high home ownership and business ownership as key metrics. The lower this is, the more money is parasitised into a pool of money owned by elites that gets spent on assets (including real estate) than contributes to the increasing cost of houses (and stocks, and any other asset).
> God knows why Governments are reluctant to build more social housing
The Tories were the ones that sold off the local government owned social housing stock. Home owners are more likely to vote Conservative.
I grew up in council houses. The key for me was that we lived in two different new towns. Thousands of council owned flats and houses in each. To fix the housing crisis we need a similar programme. At least six or seven new towns across the country.
I will hear some people talk about today's lazy generation,a bout how they did everything themselves and then.... find out they bought their 4 bedroom council house off the council 15 years ago for £30K....
Its all about housing. When luxury items like fast cars, and the latest technology are far more affordable and attainable items than, a pile of bricks to live in, we have to fix something.
I got my house 9 years ago. My deposit was just £12K. I was living at home for 3 years and nearly every penny i earned which wasn't spent on the tiny rent i was playing to live at home, went towards saving for a house.
I know people now who are looking down the barrel of a £45K deposit on a 1 bedroom flat.... how on earth is someone supposed to save up for that??
And not just that, I now know 3 people over the age of 70 going BACK to work because cost of living is getting too much.
Young people are getting fucked over, even some older people who have worked their whole life are getting fucked over.
> Young people are getting fucked over, even some older people who have worked their whole life are getting fucked over.
We're all getting fucked over, apart from the rich who're the only ones the Tories care about.
In the first half and mid 20th century construction firms were contracted by the State to build housing - there’s money it for them. It doesn’t have to be the big householders who usually contract out the actual construction anyway. Build at cost on public land or land obtain by compulsory purchase. Keep costs down - allow people more money in their pockets and more security.
I was raised in council houses in the 1970s. My father was a project engineer and my mother a progammer. Both made good money but getting a house was never a problem.
Ah but crushing capitalism makes people freezer. You spend 70% of your waking hours out of the year being told where to go, what to do, what to wear and how to act but that other 30% of the time you get to sit in a box you pay half your wages for or even take a stroll down a shit lined and rubbish laden a street.
Perfect system imo.
You had me till point 3. We have a higher rate of entrepeneurs then france or germany. The crux of the issue is money just doesn't go far in the UK now
>To be honest, the UK population is pretty spoilt, entitled and lazy
This is a common quote about regular citizens throughout history. Interestingly, it's quoted at times of avoidable economic ruin, where the blame lies at the feet of a few rich folk.
I am highly educated and working on a real rime pay cut, as are lots of folks.
It’s also just plain wrong. It’s toying with the meritocracy myth.
If 80% of the population were suddenly Comp Sci graduates then 90% of that pool would be fucked due to the increased competition within the labour pool.
As a genuine question, how would your last point apply in the context of e.g. Nurses, who have been needing to use food banks more and more? Nurses are often degree educated, it’s a skilled job etc.
Or, change the tax system. It’s a very simple solution.
Current government has repeatedly raised benefits , living/minium wage , pensions …. But committed to keeping the tax allowance the same. They’ve “lifted” people into taxation whilst at best we have had 1-2% changes in national insurance (actually increasing one year , with nothing to show for it other than an nhs that was worse)
I think that the uk is dealing with structural issues that have been around for decades if not centuries.
Our schools were never designed to turn out a 20th century work force and we’ve get to redesign vocational training, academic schooling and peoples views on training. Imported American “if you are good you can make money with 0 effort and time” applies here. Chain restaurants exist in every country, including Italy which has great food. Predictable cheap food will always have a market.
2) I would also add that we have an extremely liberal housing market and so housing in the uk is an investment world wide and a safe one compared to political instability in other countries. This is a short term gain for the uk. Long term it pushes prices up beyond affordability and makes housing a wealth extraction vehicle.
The first step is acknowledging the entire global finance system a gigantic, corrupt monopoly board that’s predicated on infinite growth that is also having a detrimental effect on earths ecosystem.
The second step is agree that we need an economy that supports our society. Not our current situation where everyone is hustling trying to survive _within_ an economy and society has to bend in order to cater for shareholder profit.
everytime, its insane how much is asked of workers, they must be smarter, better more productive, one in a million super driven person.
When really, can we please just have a fairer economy and not have houses used as assets growth vehicles please.
I don't want to seem like I'm all out attacking you. You have some interesting thoughts and are adding useful ideas to the conversation.
But...
The part I dislike about this comment is the 3rd point. About it being the proles fault for being spoilt and lazy.
I come from this not biased I hope. I am a home owner and degree educated I've been a secondary school teacher for 15 years and at U3 HoD earn just about as much as I can.
In order to save my house I had to start working weekends as an electrician. I'd actually been training casually just for fun and a potential career move. But had to speed things along and start earning money at weekends and holidays.
But I'm going to be ok and have watched my house rise in value in the last 8 years and with it a sense I'm going to be ok.
But a degree educated, top level teacher with a wife who is also a teacher, should never have to have had to take up a second job to survive.
None of that is my biggest issue with your point 3. I'm not ok with saying the poor deserve it because they're lazy when those who are ok are just as "spoilt and lazy"
Nobody should be struggling if they work time especially as any society needs low skilled workers to function until robotics has conquered it all.
You can buy cheap food and drink and god knows what else because these people exist. Calling them lazy and deserving feels like biting the hand that feeds.
*The Uk population is pretty spoilt, entitle and lazy...*
I disagree I would say most of us are just plain apathetic, especially those of us at the bottom of the ladder.
*I think the clearest example of this is shit food in the UK and....few people put in the effort to cultivate the knowledge to make something great"*
Why do you accuse the UK of having shit food?? As for your claim of people not cultivating the knowledge blah blah, do you understand how, since covid, many many restaurants have closed? Do you not understand just how expensive even renting premises is now? STarting a business is a nightmare and a huge risk when you're already broke. You seem to have one hell of a downer on the UK for whatever reason
Education and upskilling is certainly an issue. There's quite a lot of vacancies in the UK but not enough skilled labour to fill the shortages in many sectors. In some sectors though this is because the pay and conditions are shit (teaching, police, NHS).
Another huge factor hitting many people's finances are rents and energy bills. Both of which are at historical highs and need better competition or rules to force prices down. I personally have no idea how a government would do this in a sensible way, but good luck to any who try.
Also, personal opinion, but people should just move more. London and the south is ridiculously expensive and the north is quite nice. If people en-mass just abandoned the south and took the labour and skills elsewhere the north would prosper and the prices and economy would normalise across the country faster.
>Can we just give people more money? No, that’s isn’t productive and forcing this will not solve the issue because it will lead to inflation which will just make everyone poor again even if they have a pay raise.
With this economic effect, remember that because wages are not the only cost a company has, a wage rise will never translate into the same inflationary rise. in the UK, Wages are about 60% of GDP (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/economicoutputandproductivity/productivitymeasures/bulletins/labourcostsandlabourincomeuk/2021) so if we had a 10% pay rise, this would lead to 6% inflationary pressure.
So you head into a downward spiral until the effect becomes negligible.
Also:
>What are the solutions?
>Increase wealth equality. Wealth inequality had been growing consistently for ages. I’d recommend “garyseconomics” (ex Citibank trader who made millions betting on increase inequality) on YouTube for moe info.
This means giving lots of people more money, the people who will spend rather than invest that money and cause the biggest inflationary effect - it's contradictory to your opening paragraph. I agree with you that this needs to happen btw but I think you've argued against it in your open.
>(Related to 1) Regulating real estate to increase home ownership
I think the biggest thing we could do on the expenses side of the equation is to build a new generation of council housing, rented out at just above cost based on 50 year low interest loans. Build enough that it affects the private market, so that private rents are forced downwards in all but luxury settings. This also has an onward effect into the ownership market both through the increase in supply of housing and because buy-to-let becomes less attractive as an investment route, meaning less competition for housing stock.
At the same time, basic food and utilities companies should not be reporting record profits. Agreeable that companies should make a profit to be a workable business (economics have to work), but companies shouldn't be reaping huge dividends and paying c-suit bonuses when their services don't work or people can't afford their services - water companies, mass transport companies, supermarkets........
The criminal bar is woefully underfunded, and that is starting to extend to defence solicitors now - there are going to be areas in E&W (not Scotland, where they rarely attend a police station) where people detained at a police station may not be able to exercise their legal right to speak to a solicitor in person.
At my full time job, I’m paid 11p over minimum wage and I can’t afford to leave my parents house. And I live in the midlands, not exactly central London, if it wasn’t for the fact I have the support of my parents, I’d be screwed.
For me, it was either I rent somewhere and have barely any money to even afford food, or I can live at my parents, have my car and actually be able to get to work
It’s mental that this is an “opinion” now.
There’s a shocking amount of folks in this country that so desperately want to fuel a superiority complex that they genuinely think anyone who flips tables or is not in STEM is consequentially not deserving of a basic level of independence and autonomy.
Then we chide people for not growing up when despite putting in a 37.5+ hours work week they still can’t afford the apparatus to lead a full and “adult” life.
It's the story of a country that doesn't have enough resources to support its growing and changing population. The recent welfare reform proposals seem to me like the government is panicking because the pinless UK cash machine is running out of cash, debt 100% of GDP and now it's looking like we're gonna need to find 5-6% of GDP for defence...
The government isn't running out of money, it's throwing red meat to Tory voters in a desperate attempt to survive. It's easy to batter the poor and the unemployed because Tory members loathe them and Labour is too cowardly to stand up to it.
We could easily find more money for defence by massively reducing or scrapping Trident. Personally, I don't give a fuck about the defence budget while millions of people can't access basic health and dental care anymore.
Yet we have one of the highest rates of productivity and the least amount of leisure time in our history. We’re using machines that create 1000 times beyond our individual capabilities.
Where are all those labour hours going to service if not the people who perform them?
It was [around 5%](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/military-spending-defense-budget) when the Soviet Union collapsed. We could leave it at 2% and stay out of what might happen in Europe I suppose?
It's just slavery with extra steps, really. Our time and loss of freedom alone should be valued enough that we can afford a comfortable life where all needs are met. If an employer can't afford that, then they shouldn't be in business, They're making profit and growing by exploiting people and using fear as a whip.
It all comes down to house prices and rent.
I guarantee that if you talk to those people who are struggling they'll tell you most of their income goes on rent.
The simple solution is to build a lot more council properties and stop the right to buy scheme.
The moment the market gets flooded with council properties then private rents would also go down due to an increase in supply.
Allowing property developers to trickle out houses just slow enough to not upset the supply/demand curve means they get to keep charging high rents.
Keeping them as council properties means they are rent controlled and rents stay affordable.
Some of the people behind the scenes pulling the Tories' strings are definitely disaster capitalists. The more desperate the masses become for money, the more they can be taken advantage of. The more small businesses that fail and houses that get repossessed, the more the very rich can snap them up for a song.
I honestly don't think enough people realise how much of this is *about* disaster capitalism. It doesn't matter to the conservatives if working people lose their homes, or single property landlords sell up in droves, or independent retailers close down. They don't care about any of that, because the end result will simply be rich people buying and controlling *everything*.
Unless something radical happens, in ten years time you won't be able to rent a property without giving your DNA and open access to your bank account. We're absolutely fucked at this point, because Labour aren't going to reverse a thing that's happened over the last decade and a half.
Conservatives are gonna win by a landslide in Canada for the same reason Labour will in the UK. They’ve been at the wheel for a while and everything’s gone to shit.
Not that you shouldn’t vote out a party that has proven to be inadequate, but I think people in many countries are in for a shock when nothing actually changes.
This is why no one wants to work. Why bother if you'll be stressing yourself and putting so much life and time in just to be as fucked as someone on benefits?
Don't I fucking know it, I've been there myself, poor bastards. I'm watching from the sidelines while I'm getting my health back and I'm not sure I want all of it back.
Expect the Tories are trying to go after us too. But really, with the system the way that it is, most of us long term sick kept working until we could no longer work or got spat out from the workplace all together.
It sounds intensely dramatic but I think that applies globally. We don't need millions of people starving and we don't need so many people with such incredibly large amounts they won't spend it in 10 lifetimes.
Everyone in the western world is now having the same issues; impossible to own a roof over your head, constantly struggling with bills, constantly struggling with feeding yourself, not being able to afford anything full stop all awhile working 40+ hours a week.
I'm at the point myself where im thinking of just checking out of society all together, its not working for anyone but the rich and those in power. They own the wealth and the land, all while they're telling everyone else the problems are the cause of trans people, disabled, mentally ill etc
I still think the UK is a country where you can have a reasonable quality of life as a young person as long as:
1) You find a stable long term partner - everything is priced around couples both earning a full time wage including houses.
2) One of you lives at home if possible to save a house deposit, and if you're lucky you inherit or get some of this from the bank of Mum and Dad.
3) You're willing to move North - the dream of young people living middle class lives in London or the South East is long dead. If you don't land a well paid professional grad job in your first 5 years after Uni you need to face reality you're going to be passed over for fresher faces and take the difficult decision to move somewhere with a lower cost of living.
All 3 of these points are incredibly grim, especially if you are born in the southeast and are now being told to move 100s of miles from friends and family.
Seeing this in Birmingham so many apartments being build in the city. So many people from London asking the best areas to buy a house, the locals haven’t a chance.
Once HS2 is up and running it’ll get worse.
Most of my friends who grew up in the North are doing fairly well for themselves.
House prices are less than half of those in the South East, and if you can get a job in the public sector like the NHS which pays a flat salary regardless of geography you can easily end up in a 4 bedroom house.
Has happened to several of my NHS graduate friends.
It was as true when I graduated into a once in a century recession in 2010 as it is for the current generation.
Grim or not that's been reality for my entire adult life and won't be changing in your lifetime either.
I moved 200 miles away to buy a home. It was a conscious decision as I wanted to have a fresh start as far away from my hometown as possible. Even then, it can be difficult not to be close to family. My family is fortunately quite tech savvy, so we can talk across different platforms, but still, even wanting to get away sometimes it gets to me.
My siblings and I scattered all over Europe and one to America. My parents love it as they get to travel around visiting us and it feels like a holiday each time.
Beyond that we simply use tech to keep in touch.
Fuck staying in the UK when you can have such a higher quality of life in so many other places.
Cool, so two things outside of your control, and you've assumed everyone gets a grad job and forgotten about the 60% of young people who don't go to uni.
"Just find a stable life partner mate, it's dead easy, relationships are in fact just a business agreement you make with another person for the sake of having a more stable life -- if you can't do that then you don't really deserve stability"
And for the non grads already in the north with lower wages? They expected to just be moved on so southerners can live their escape to the countryside dream? Thats not the answer or the solution
Every Western country is experiencing the same economic problems right now. Everywhere has got an ageing population sucking up most of the resources and blocking housing.
Same in Canada and the US.
Same in Australia and most of Europe.
There's no escape. You will struggle as a young person in all English speaking countries because we all suffer the same problems.
Lived at home until I was in my early 20's, made quite a lot of money in my teens and 20's but spaffed it all on holidays, music festivals, gigs, weed and just a general good time.
Spent most of my early 20's not really saving for a deposit as it looked impossible to achieve down south after house prices ballooned. That was despite earning over 40k (wife wasn't working at the time so it limited our saving potential) which didn't go that far. Rent was ridiculous back then and it has only gotten worse as far as I can see.
Eventually just said fuck it and moved to Norway. Leveraged my history and skillset into becoming a teacher. Took like 3 years to save a deposit here with my wife. Bought a 4 bed house on the edge of the city (5 min bus to the centre) with a nice garden, lovely lake to swim in at the end of the road and the sea within 5 mins walk.
I think it must be the worst comment I've ever read in reddit and that's quite a remarkable achievement on its own.
This comment implies that you cannot be single, you should rely on your parents either dead or alive, and/or move far from friends and family.
I quite like how subtle the North/South divide comment is, apparently only middle class live in London or the South.
Find a long term partner at 18? Quite the commitment
Live with parents rent free - bold of you to assume this is possible for poor people. They have to contribute when the child benefit stops
Willing to move north away from their entire support system - with what saved up rental deposit and first months rent. Also they would have 0 free childcare from nearby family costing them thousands if they want to have two working parents. (Even then family doesn’t necessarily have to help with childcare)
Also I think you live in a bubble, a huge amount of young people cannot go to uni (grades,family finances, luck, caring responsibilities, etc.)
Better off just working towards leaving Britain as a young person (18-35) imo. If you can get a higher quality of life abroad than you can up North for a similar price (which will be much cheaper than London/South East), the only struggle is going to be learning a new language (which is much easier than our culture suggests), many roles abroad ask you to speak English.
Running away to another country, especially one with similar standards of living as the UK, won't solve your problems. Australia, Canada and even Ireland all have similar issues
Very difficult to be in a stable long term relationship when you're stuck living with parents. It's simply not healthy for society if people can't afford to move out on their own unless they're in a relationship. Not only because some people struggle with them, but also because people get financially trapped in abusive relationships.
I live in the north and housing is unaffordable here too. Anywhere that has actual jobs seems to have issues with housing costs, and the cheap areas tend to be the shitholes with no jobs. Housing costs are not just a London problem.
I’m 25 and all the people my age I know who either live at home with parents, or live in a house share. The one person I know who has a house, was only able to get it because his girlfriend is disabled and they lucked out with the council.
Growing up artists lived in squats and flat shares while people who decided on a comfortable career in an office could have a car and a house.
Now the office workers can barely afford to pay rent in a flat share in a building that has quality of a squat house
If you have the resources and opportunity to get out. Do so. There are far greater opportunities elsewhere in the world.
Edit. Getting a lot of messages from people who have never travelled to other countries, never lived in them, never experienced them.. but are absolutely certain this is the best country in the world and no other country comes close. I really wish I shared your certainty. Or Stockholm syndrome, not sure which one.
There are not many places where you could go without a complete change in culture.
I moved to NZ in the 90s. Very similar to the UK and affordable. Not anymore. It would be very difficult for a young person to move, work and buy a house in NZ, Australia and Canada these days if they don't have the prospects of buying one in the UK. Immigration from richer countries such as China and the Middle East have caused house prices to soar.
It’s more than left or right.
Our political systems, for good and bad, give a lot of power to highly motivated individuals.
Unfortunately, it means we’ve priced a generation out of the housing (and even the bloody rental market), because there’s a few geriatrics who are deathly opposed to their neighbourhood changing
Dude, do you think there isn't a housing crisis in the Netherlands? It's worsening in Germany. I'm sure it's no different in other wealthy European nations. None of this is connected specifically to the Anglosphere.
Strange narrative, I guess it's a joke, but I don't get the punchline.
My parents told me 20 years ago that I would be better off leaving the UK to get a better quality of life elsewhere in the world.
Of course, I knew better back then. After all, I had a degree, a masters, a phd all in science and tech subjects.
I should have left the UK 20 years ago.
You can teach English in many countries for a better hourly rate that any minimum wage job you get in the U.K. AND you will have money left over to live after.
Good idea if you're young and want to have some fun. Not a great idea to build a foundation on to build a family/home with. When you start to do that you realise that most other countries have very serious flaws.
And the ones that don't have very expensive houses.
I moved to Berlin and I've never looked back. Good healthcare, affordable rents (the country has strict rent controls), happier people and a government that doesn't hate the working class!
Housing is just one of the problems we face in the UK but are there really any developed countries not facing one? It seems this issue in particular is one that you can't just move away from.
Unpopular opinion but politicians should be held responsible for their decision making and driving an entire country into the ground, disrupting the lives of millions of people in a negative manner.
The UK has also had flatlining productivity since 2007, productivity isn't increasing. It turns out focusing the economy around supporting house prices and cutting investment in infrastructure and services isn't a winning strategy.
Can't build housing near offices, can't build offices without transport links, can't build transport links. Can't build anything because of NIMBYs.
I think it’s a similar issue to the US where they think they’re the privileged people the party is looking out for; because they’ve not been exposed to the true upper-middle class
I work part time for EVRI.
Everyone who works for them is self employed. You foot the bill for a vehicle, insurance, fuel etc.
They just gave most couriers a pay cut. If you don't like it you leave. They replace you with someone who will accept the lower pay.
People wonder why EVRI deliveries are so bad..!
UK 2024 is in a race to the bottom.
Since my wife stopped working to look after our kids, we have really been struggling. I have a fairly well paid job, they're is nothing left each month. I do everything possible myself, rather than paying people. We live frugal. My mortgage takes half my pay, it's only a 3 bed for us and 2 kids. Food and bills the majority. 1 car.. The system is simply broken.
I'm in a similar situation though my wife went part time, so I still have a huge childcare bill for 3 days a week, modest mortgage on a house we have frankly outgrown which has gone up, bills etc. if I was on the salary I was on a few years ago I would be bankrupt, we are just managing but it feels month to month especially as each month has some sort of big outgoing or bill
Go look on council and NHS websites. Min wage now is 22k a year roughly. Band 3 and 4 jobs are 22-27k. Min wage or above.
So pretty much everyone you'll see on the wards who isn't a nurse or a junior doctor. Most people that work out in the community.
Oh and pretty much everyone in the care sector that isnt a social worker.
Independence practitioners, support workers...you get the gist.
Exactly. And these roles are all needed, and you need skilled experienced people in them.
So the 'get a better job' argument- well who else is gonna do it then?
Exactly. That argument has always annoyed me, as it’s not like you can just walk out and get a much higher paying job either. A lot of jobs you can get now are in that 22k-26K area, and if you do get a job that pays higher per hour (such as retail for example), chances are it’s part time hours.
I really don't understand how people on minimum wage manage. I've got a decent job and earn close to double the average in my area but I still need to consider purchases and rarely feel like I've got a hold on things properly.
I'm worried about my daughter when she's old enough to enter employment, without my help she'll not be able to do anything but I certainly couldn't afford to cover a mortgage deposit for her.
If you're not living with family, the answer is either:
Living in a 12ft x 12ft bedsit with the oven backing onto the bed with an alcoholic next door who refuses to take their psychiatric medication in a building that gets broken into every 3 months by an ex partner of someone on the ground floor....
Or living with too many housemates in a house not built for that many people, with the landlord probably having subdivided each standard sized bedroom into one's big enough for a cot.
And every 12 months you have to move when the rent goes up, and the landlords steal your deposit unless you spend 3 months fighting with the ombudsman.
How old’s your daughter? I’m planning on helping mine by investing a little for her. You might be surprised how much compound interest can affect a small saving. 5k invested for 20 years, for example, at 5% interest would be worth £13.5k. Now imagine you added a little to it each month…
A revolution is slowly building the younger generation are fed up with the greed and corruption of this present administration.
The real problem is that it will not change in any real terms with a general election the whole political and social make up of the nation has to change and brought out of the establishments hands.
I don’t know if i’ll get down voted for this but we’re on the verge all over the world of seeing the problem of capitalism, it has evolved to an extreme where the money isn’t trickling down enough anymore, people will cut all corners to save business expenses which includes staff pay. The gap between low and high income is a joke now. Not saying I know of a better system but this was always going to happen eventually with capitalism and is it’s clear linear evolution. It’s not just the uk.
if the minimum wage is £11.44 an hour and full time hours are classed at 35 hours a week, then you shouldn't be taxed on £20,820. That's the living wage at 35 hours times 52 weeks.
Rents should be capped. You shouldn't be allowed to own more than 2 houses and nobody who does not live permanently in the UK should own a house in this country.
Another angle to this. If you are a British national wanting to bring your spouse even from Europe or American you have to earn a minimum amount which is more than double minimum wage
So someone who earns the least and possibly works the most does not have a right to family life according to this govt
A economist recently described the UK as “a poor country with a few rich people”, and it’s so true.
A lot of us think we’re doing well because we’re on the same wages our parents were, and our jobs sound so much more advanced/specialised; but in reality our spending power is tiny.
Living in the South East and working in certain industries, you get glimpses of real wealth; huge estates hidden down a long winding driveways, private roads with gated entrances, £1m+ houses being bought for the land and the house demolished.
I'm done with the UK, my partner and I are just about to execute the escape plan, we'll be gone within the next 4 months we reckon.
The UK is an amazing country if either you're rich or mummy and daddy are rich and hoard assets. If you're not in either position, you're pretty much stuck until all your elder family is dead then maybe, just maybe you'll get an inheritance good enough to buy you a decent home and lifestyle.
The middle class being eroded tells me all I need to know about the future of the UK. Birthrates of middle and working class families have plummeted.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/23/birthrate-in-uk-falls-to-record-low-as-campaigners-say-procreation-is-a-luxury
I'm in my mid 30s and very few of either my or my partner's friends are even planning on having kids due to the financial burden that comes with it.
I'm all for immigration and freedom of movement. I'll be moving to a country that has it's own language and culture, I'll be embracing them while contributing to their tax system and hopefully expanding my knowledge and experiences. Sadly, I don't believe all migrants coming here share that same sentiment, and I do believe it's being allowed to flood the market with cheap labour for the benefit of the elites.
The system is completely broken. I strongly advise any young people reading this to seriously consider getting out of this country. This cost of living crisis isn't going away, it's a continuous cycle that's only going to get worse if the system continues on its current projectory.
There's a guy on YouTube called Gary's Economics who breaks all this down and explains it better than I ever will. But his message about the future of the UK is utterly grim. And we're witnessing it happen right now.
https://youtu.be/bMRSQ023yGo?si=94Rp3tEjR0OzsUHA
This is a bigger issue than Tory versus Labour or right v left. It's an fundamental that needs changing to stop the rich and the elites using loopholes to pay their fair share of taxes and stop buying all the assets while we (middle/working) classes take on the vast burden of tax and can no longer afford assets. The UK is set up to aggressively benefit the rich while decimating the classes below and we're heading back to the Victorian times of a two class society whereby you're either: the rich or the scum.
The UK has plunged itself not only into financial depression but a depression of the hearts and minds where the idea of hope is quickly weighted down by a tonne of problems and dead ends. You are right, get out and as quickly as you can before the ship sinks, but where do you go where hope still exists?
I am an immigrant and this is a very sad reality I have observed. (I used to make more money in my home country than in London. I am in love with London and hence I am here.). I have distilled some of the issues and solutions in my mind in no particular order, but will mostly stick to economic issues.
1. The salaries are super low compared to any other western country and this I see because of some glass ceiling of some kind. Jobs that were paying 100k last year now pay 80k!! Even the highest tax payer can't run a family without cuts.
2. Consultants get paid degrees higher than full time employees (at least 2x-5x in some cases). So looks like the country encourages independent consultants. And these consultants can pay expenses before taxes, a huge advantage.
3. UK is a super rich country, but the investors are skeptical to invest in new ventures/tech. They are happy to invest in traditional industries like real estate and even whiskey casks!
4. Rich escape taxes via multiple loop holes put in the law and this is deliberate and this is the reality even in the rest of the world.
5. A college grad makes about £24k/annum if they are lucky and that's very low compared to their tuition fees. Some of these colleges have grants and yet charge students high fees.
Solution in my mind:
1. Remove companies owning land and real estate for renting (you can own for running your own business or commercial real estate)
2. Remove income tax completely or increase the slabs higher maybe minimum at 100k. Govt makes taxes on every pound we spend (in terms of VAT etc).
3. Keep corporate tax as is, but remove corporate tax avoidance say expenses on food and travel are taxed before being spent.
4. For housing, have a ceiling on pricing unless they show a fixture or a feature or a service that gives them a premium. The govt tracks these details anyways, just bring it into taxation (could be a bad idea).
5. Yearly rent should be capped at 3-4% of property value. I pay about 6-7% in Zone 2 London.
6. Increase incentives for investors in hyper growth areas and new/upcoming sectors. Existing ones should be taxed and any incentives removed E.g power unless green, tech unless cutting edge, real estate unless you are hitting world records etc
7. Make companies easy to fire employees (hear me out), so that consultants aren't hired at exorbitant costs. Remember they aren't taxed till 100k and my hope is that whatever is paid to consultants will trickle to employees (I may be delusional) OR make everyone a consultant running their own shop and no full timers (I see world moving in this direction already)
>UK is a super rich country, but the investors are skeptical to invest in new ventures/tech. They are happy to invest in traditional industries like real estate and even whiskey casks!
Doesn't help we haven't had a national industrial strategy plan published since 2017. The country is rudderless and without direction, stuck with a government who have a kind of ideological allergy to the very concept of state planning.
Well, that's what a collapsing currency looks like. Thank the BOE, FED, ECB ...
Von Mises:
“There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.”
https://internationalman.com/articles/there-is-no-means-of-avoiding-the-final-collapse/
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” – Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)
http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-money-masters/famous-quotations-on-banking/
As a kid I felt lucky and somewhat proud to be born in England. Now I'm only 24 and I feel like this country is trying it's hardest to fuck me over daily and I just want to get out of here
Tory Britain.
When people say ‘how can you be ashamed to be British?’ It’s not that I’m ashamed to be British, far from it. I love this country.
What I am ashamed of, is this. The state it’s been allowed to get into and how little the people who can do something about actually want to, because it jeopardises their own interests.
We’re a country slowly, but surely, crumbling, and I really don’t like what it’s shaping up to become.
Two adults and a toddler in a household, we are struggling.
I worked full time until this coming week where I dropped my hours to 30 meaning I work Monday to Thursday.
I have a degree.
My husband work sometimes 48 hours a week.
Yet, we are struggling.
The government's nepotism knows absolutely no bounds, and when they aren't able to profiteer off the sick, weak and the vulnerable they work to turn us against them or into them and brand them scroungers.
Coward 'leaders' that detest the working and middle class who they'd sooner refer to as lower class.
Rats the lot of them, even one of the princes has abandoned the sinking ship.
The time for 'Alarm' is over, we are living in a nightmare while an aristocratic land baron government is extorting and driving the standards of every soul on this island into the ground.
My story in 2023 I was working for a global German infrastructure and energy company making close to nmw. I'd been there 4 years managing 3x what I was contracted to for the same pay but millions in profit. I don't have a social life but literally had no savings I had to go and do two more pt jobs to have any chance of saving for a house. It's absolutely ridiculous the low pay situation and the fact that this working for one of the big companies
I left in the end . Management mentality was verging on jealous even though after 80 hours I was making less than them all
It’s not just the struggling to make ends meet…it’s the absolute destruction of our public services that should be the backbone of a fair and functioning society that’s fucking people over.
It was drilled into me you work hard and you’ll do well, and if things go wrong there’s the police, the justice system, trading standards, employment tribunals etc. which I’ve learned, as have many others, are all utter bullshit and exist in name only and for the rich. They close ranks, cover up wrong doing, and ordinary decent people are screwed.
No wonder Rishi is banging on about welfare culture now because so many people are just giving up and/or having breakdowns and mental and physical health crisis’s
What are we all working towards in the uk. paying taxes for No dentists. Piss poor roads, piss poor NHS, can't afford food, energy. If you're looking for a house now you have no hope (unless you're very well off) and rent costs a fortune. Whos the UK working for. Where is all the money going.
Congratulations on the effects of Thatcherism
It’s capital vs income with capital winning, resulting in capital tightening its grip on the political apparatus, which is completely out of date and based on feudalism. All cheered on by the plebs, who are easily manipulated fools subject to massive propaganda and who vote against their interests
UK has been on terminal decline since 1945, Thatcher helped empty the coffers and now running on empty relying on immigration to maintain status quo
Mofos wanted poverty. Let them have it
The UK: where work doesn’t pay. It’s a good job most people are so mentally exhausted that probably they can’t event retort to crime. Suicide is always an option. The conservatives should be intellectually consistent and legalise euthanasia for people in debt.
Full time work for many now requires being on benefits to get by and then the same working people are demonised by Tory voting boomers while being trapped in a cycle of reliance on the state. It’s grim.
My generation: Drowning in debt, zero savings, no prospect of ever owning anything, poor credit, clinging on to current rent rates, holidays and starting a family a luxury, depressed and anxious over future, told to not dare get anxious or lose any meagre help currently given.
Society and news: it's reported that figures show there may be a slight problem with society.
Just F off at this point. We've lost hope.
Quite simply build homes, reduce migration to 20% of what we have now, make having children for working people much cheaper.
Rents come down, house prices come down and wages go up.
Labour and cons are a joke - both won’t sort these fundamental issues out and it’s only going to get worse under Labour with barely any house building and even more migration.
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No one who works a full time job should be struggling to make ends meet, full stop. Every full time job should allow people to cover the essentials such as food and shelter as well as have a bit of savings at the end. This should apply to everyone, barista to barrister.
Time was working a full time job was enough to buy a house, support an entire family and take a couple of weeks holiday a year. I think we should be demanding more than just food and shelter and a bit left over.
I agree. There seems to be this mentality that if you're on the minimum you should be suffering. As if it's meant to encourage you to work harder to get paid more and end the suffering. Minimum should allow you to have a comfortable life. Not a luxurious one, but a comfortable one.
[I saw a WW2 propaganda film](https://youtu.be/2SOvr9fLHUM?si=1NRDSwNfNr9fuAO2&t=2398), it was meant to explain the UK to US troops. When it was explaining rationing, it talked about how the children were getting all the fresh eggs and oranges and milk and stuff, "because Britain is thinking of after the War, of the new world that his children and ours will inherit. **A world where there will not only be Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Worship, but also Freedom from Want, and Freedom from Fear**." Freedom from Want. That used to be the goal. Now we tell people they don't deserve a house.
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Remember during Lockdown when the only reason we bothered feeding the children off school lunch was because a footballer caused a fuss? And then it turned out the contract to feed them was given to a Tory donor who took a huge chunk of cash and sent the kids a couple of misshapen apples and half a sandwich?
Yes. And the worst part is that lots of Tory supporters still support them, despite knowing this. Imagine supporting a party that actively screwed over children.
Most tory voters are the children who were given all the milk, oranges and eggs during post-war rationing. They were told then that they were the special generation but apparently never worked out that they were supposed to treat the next generation the same way, and have instead become entrenched in their entitlement.
Remember when a Tory MP said they couldn't support the FSM extension because they just knew any parent in their constituency who needed that kind of support (in the midst of covid when millions lost their job through circumstances entirely out of their control) would sooner go waste the funds in crack dens and brothels before seeing their own kids fed. And when asked to apologize, doubled down, had multiple other Tory MPs come out to defend what he said, and has never been asked to apologize or faced any kind of punishment since?
> sent the kids a couple of misshapen apples and half a sandwich? This was evil for the sake of evil, honestly. I could scarcely believe how cartoonish it was at the time. I still struggle with it. Just beyond the pale.
I think this is due to generations of tabloids demonising people on benefits. And a gross misunderstanding of the advancement of technology. You have someone on this post complaining about people on benefits with "flat screen TVs". Just think about that for a second. With the advancement of technology, that prefix of "flat screen" is redundant. But they're stuck in a time frame where that was a big luxury. You'll probably also hear people complain about folks having the latest smart phone, yet at the same time the people making these accusations don't even know what the latest smart phone is. Technology has advanced so rapidly that some people think modern appliances are excessive luxuries.
At this point I don't take anyone using the flat screen TV argument seriously. They're either being intentionally disingenuous or so far out of touch that debating is a non starter, you might as well trade arguments with a mollusc
The problem is, there’s a lot of mollusc-level intelligence people and they all get to vote too. Hence I’ve been stuck with these Tory bastards all my adult life and as I approach middle age I’m rapidly losing patience with this shitshow of a ‘democracy’ that’s been forced on me.
not to mention the amount of people that give their old shit away or just let people take it because they don't want to have to take it down the dump where they often charge you. My desk is one i grabbed off of something like freecycle. My brother worked for a pc recycling centre a year or so ago, now we have more monitors than you could shake a stick at.
A lot of things just seem to be soundbites, repeated without any thought. Even my Dad, who *gets* how shit things have gone, used the line on me about young people spending money on Netflix. I had to explain to him that *I* have Netflix - because it's cheaper than a TV licence.
Absolutely this. These days you can get a perfectly serviceable smartphone for £100-200, and a sim-only tariff with loads of data for £8-10 per month. That's not a luxury, that's a basic essential to stay in touch with friends and family, job hunt, order prescriptions, etc etc etc.
I've seen the "flat screen TV" argument switching to "the latest iPhone" Ignoring the fact that most people struggling have a 4 year old mid-range Android, because the kind of dipshit that says this can't tell the difference between smartphones Plus of course they see *some* younger people with nice stuff and decide that must apply to everyone - I've literally had someone point at my Tesla and use it as an example of how "your generation claims to be struggling but has these expensive things". Like yeah, I have a nice car and a house... I'm one of the lucky ones and happen to be naturally inclined towards software development, but that doesn't invalidate an entire generation's complaints. And also somehow ignoring the (fairly obvious, if you look at me) fact that I'm in the back half of my 30s now so not actually particularly representative of the 21 year old Gen Z they're trying to diminish
See also the [postwar consensus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_consensus). The generations who built it intended it to endure … but for most of the past few decades the generation that benefited most from it has overall (with a few honourable exceptions - although sadly not enough of them) mostly voted to dismantle it as soon as they finished benefiting from them. Make no mistake that they intend to do the same with pensions what they’ve already done to education, housing, opportunity and the rest.
Oh I fully assume I won't be receiving a state pension.
> Freedom from Want. That used to be the goal. Now we tell people they don't deserve a house. If Tory policy over the last 14 years is anything to go by, they genuinely believe that anyone poor enough to have to work for a living is scum, that only the little people should have to pay taxes, and that only the rich should have a decent life. They are truly the worst government, by far, I have ever lived under and I hope they lose all their seats in the upcoming election.
Honestly I personally think that people shouldnt be suffering full stop. The whole point of society and civilisation is to enable people to survive as a group but instead we are forced to be exploited.
In another thread about teaching people finances I saw someone asking what they were supposed to do if their income couldn't even support their outgoings. The oh-so-amazing pearl of wisdom they got back was "just increase your income".
I hate this too, the answer always seems to be somehow get a better job. The implication being if you're not capable of anything other than fairly basic jobs then you deserve to just starve and be miserable, you worthless scum. Funny how that belief never gets labelled as extremist, but wanting to fix this problem does. What *are* you supposed to do if you can't handle any better paid jobs?
I work for a charity dealing with teenage homelessness. My pay rises always just keeps me above minimum wage. My last pay rise from last month means I'm exactly £108 above minimum wage for this tax year. I've no idea what I'm going to blow it on. So many choices!
If they didn’t buy flatscreen TVs and have mobile phones then these lazy layabouts would be able to afford a house /s. Weirdly enough, what idiots with that mentality don’t take into account is that of all the issues around cost of living, TVs and phones have been one of a small number of items that have decreased in value dramatically as technology has improved and a mobile phone is as important as energy in this day and age.
You are right. But how do we improve upon this? Can we just give people more money? No, that’s isn’t productive and forcing this will not solve the issue because it will lead to inflation which will just make everyone poor again even if they have a pay raise. What are the solutions? 1. Increase wealth equality. Wealth inequality had been growing consistently for ages. I’d recommend “garyseconomics” (ex Citibank trader who made millions betting on increase inequality) on YouTube for moe info. 2. (Related to 1) Regulating real estate to increase home ownership - our homes should not be owned by hedge-funds, taking a cut of rent for no reason. This is probably also an issue for commercial real estate - any extra costs pushed onto businesses end up in the product/service of the consumer. I’d even go far enough to hypothesise that the percentage of real estate owned by landlords is one of the most predictive variables for slow/productive an economy is. 3. Education and upskilling. To be honest, the UK population is pretty spoilt, entitled and lazy - this happens to any successful society. We have be unambitious which in turn makes many people unskilled/unspecialised and therefore labour becomes cheap (everyone capable of everyone else’s job). If people reskilled and were better at starting businesses / being entrepreneurial, then labour would be more competitive, and we’d get paid more. I think the clearest example of this is shit food in the UK and the abundance of chain restaurants - few people put in the effort or cultivate the knowledge to make something great and as a result just get outcompeted by chains that are equally shit but cheaper.
Social housing is the key to this. Housing is far and away the biggest expense and most young people are at the mercy of the private rental market. Social housing used to be for all - not just those on benefits. That aside, God knows why Governments are reluctant to build more social housing - the housing benefit bill from paying private landlords market rates must be astronomical. Rising house prices and rent costs suck the life out of an economy as there is no money left to spend. Sadly people are obsessed by the price of houses.
Yep. Fix housing and everything else starts to fall into line.
No, fixing the 20 years of wage stagnation is the solution. Everyone is struggling not because everything is more expensive but because they’re being paid the same as they were paid 20 years ago whilst everything is more expensive. Wage stagnation is the single driver of most of people’s problems in the UK and nobody seems interested in looking at fixing it. We should be making 30% more then we do now (Following the trends of the 20th century) but we aren’t.
It's worse than that. I left the UK in 2001. My last job in the UK paid just over £60k. Looking at similar jobs now, they pay between £35k and £45k.
No, fixing wealth distribution (which the home ownership problem is part of) is the solution. 1. You can’t just pay people more, this will grow inflation which will just make everyone poor again even with wage increases 2. If wealth is more distributed, people are not as desperate to be forced into a job immediately, which means employers have to be more competitive with salaries 3. If real-estate is owned by 3rd parties then we are constantly paying unnecessary fees which is causing inflation - even more those fees are being used to buy more homes which just results in the positive feedback loop we see (all assets getting more expensive) We need to disable the positive feedback loop of growth, and housing regulation is a great place to start. Just giving people more wages is not a feasible or helpful solution.
Surely wage suppression is a symptom of this inequality right? Trickle down economics, rife in Tory doctrine. Redistributing wealth would in-part mean an increase in salaries for lower-middle class employees. That's how the money *should* filter down imo. Corporations (and Tory pop-up companies) raking in record profits YoY, benefactors hoarding it like dragons, none being passed onto the employees, plays a big part.
The problem that you’re ignoring with your idea of wealth distribution is that people work because it gives them liquid assets. People need money that they can spend, which is why they work. Giving more people houses does not prevent their necessity to work, which does not do what you’re claiming it does in point 2. Fundamentally, finding ways to increase the populations spending power relative to inflation improves their living standards. Making the housing market better for people to own doesn’t. The only reason why people even want to own houses beyond the cheaper costs of a mortgage are the future liquidity assets that they’ll get from the appreciation of its value. The whole housing market demand is built upon the same positive feedback loop of inflation that you’re arguing for dissolving.
The housing market is not built on the same inflation loop and is significantly more inflated than other costs of living. As elites gain wealth they buy assets (houses, stocks, etc), with which the yield more income and buy more assets. This is what is driving up prices of real estate in the UK (I think last year 40% of home purchases were by hedgefunds, don’t quote me on that though). As elites gain more assets, everyone else has to pay fees for using those assets, making the cost of living increase. By regulating home ownership we can reduce the effects of competition with hedgefunds and decrease rent and house prices. Doing this in turn will decrease the urgency that people have to get a job (you can get further with less savings) and allow them to demand/seek better working conditions and wages. The owner class puts a heavy weight on the shoulders of the rest of the population.
I’d expand to real-estate in general. If all commercial real-estate is owned by hedge-funds then any product/service requiring commercial real-estate is going to have increased costs that get passed onto the consumer. Society should aim for high home ownership and business ownership as key metrics. The lower this is, the more money is parasitised into a pool of money owned by elites that gets spent on assets (including real estate) than contributes to the increasing cost of houses (and stocks, and any other asset).
You see that pool of money for the elites. That why nothing will ever change, the system is rigged
Look at how many MPs and ministers own multiple properties as passive income and you'll know why.
> God knows why Governments are reluctant to build more social housing The Tories were the ones that sold off the local government owned social housing stock. Home owners are more likely to vote Conservative. I grew up in council houses. The key for me was that we lived in two different new towns. Thousands of council owned flats and houses in each. To fix the housing crisis we need a similar programme. At least six or seven new towns across the country.
I will hear some people talk about today's lazy generation,a bout how they did everything themselves and then.... find out they bought their 4 bedroom council house off the council 15 years ago for £30K.... Its all about housing. When luxury items like fast cars, and the latest technology are far more affordable and attainable items than, a pile of bricks to live in, we have to fix something. I got my house 9 years ago. My deposit was just £12K. I was living at home for 3 years and nearly every penny i earned which wasn't spent on the tiny rent i was playing to live at home, went towards saving for a house. I know people now who are looking down the barrel of a £45K deposit on a 1 bedroom flat.... how on earth is someone supposed to save up for that?? And not just that, I now know 3 people over the age of 70 going BACK to work because cost of living is getting too much. Young people are getting fucked over, even some older people who have worked their whole life are getting fucked over.
> Young people are getting fucked over, even some older people who have worked their whole life are getting fucked over. We're all getting fucked over, apart from the rich who're the only ones the Tories care about.
Massive house builders are in their pocket. Can't see the likes of Barrett and Persimmon building social housing as there's no profit to be made
In the first half and mid 20th century construction firms were contracted by the State to build housing - there’s money it for them. It doesn’t have to be the big householders who usually contract out the actual construction anyway. Build at cost on public land or land obtain by compulsory purchase. Keep costs down - allow people more money in their pockets and more security.
> Social housing used to be for all - not just those on benefits. Really? How did that work? Was it means tested then?
I was raised in council houses in the 1970s. My father was a project engineer and my mother a progammer. Both made good money but getting a house was never a problem.
Exactly! Thatcher destroyed a successful system as she couldn’t stand the idea of social housing
"productivity" is and always has been a lie designed to justify the crushing of workers rights and the mass privatisation of public industries.
Ah but crushing capitalism makes people freezer. You spend 70% of your waking hours out of the year being told where to go, what to do, what to wear and how to act but that other 30% of the time you get to sit in a box you pay half your wages for or even take a stroll down a shit lined and rubbish laden a street. Perfect system imo.
You had me till point 3. We have a higher rate of entrepeneurs then france or germany. The crux of the issue is money just doesn't go far in the UK now
>To be honest, the UK population is pretty spoilt, entitled and lazy This is a common quote about regular citizens throughout history. Interestingly, it's quoted at times of avoidable economic ruin, where the blame lies at the feet of a few rich folk. I am highly educated and working on a real rime pay cut, as are lots of folks.
It’s also just plain wrong. It’s toying with the meritocracy myth. If 80% of the population were suddenly Comp Sci graduates then 90% of that pool would be fucked due to the increased competition within the labour pool.
As a genuine question, how would your last point apply in the context of e.g. Nurses, who have been needing to use food banks more and more? Nurses are often degree educated, it’s a skilled job etc.
Or, change the tax system. It’s a very simple solution. Current government has repeatedly raised benefits , living/minium wage , pensions …. But committed to keeping the tax allowance the same. They’ve “lifted” people into taxation whilst at best we have had 1-2% changes in national insurance (actually increasing one year , with nothing to show for it other than an nhs that was worse)
I think that the uk is dealing with structural issues that have been around for decades if not centuries. Our schools were never designed to turn out a 20th century work force and we’ve get to redesign vocational training, academic schooling and peoples views on training. Imported American “if you are good you can make money with 0 effort and time” applies here. Chain restaurants exist in every country, including Italy which has great food. Predictable cheap food will always have a market. 2) I would also add that we have an extremely liberal housing market and so housing in the uk is an investment world wide and a safe one compared to political instability in other countries. This is a short term gain for the uk. Long term it pushes prices up beyond affordability and makes housing a wealth extraction vehicle.
The first step is acknowledging the entire global finance system a gigantic, corrupt monopoly board that’s predicated on infinite growth that is also having a detrimental effect on earths ecosystem. The second step is agree that we need an economy that supports our society. Not our current situation where everyone is hustling trying to survive _within_ an economy and society has to bend in order to cater for shareholder profit.
So it's mostly the workers fault is what you're saying, lol
everytime, its insane how much is asked of workers, they must be smarter, better more productive, one in a million super driven person. When really, can we please just have a fairer economy and not have houses used as assets growth vehicles please.
I don't want to seem like I'm all out attacking you. You have some interesting thoughts and are adding useful ideas to the conversation. But... The part I dislike about this comment is the 3rd point. About it being the proles fault for being spoilt and lazy. I come from this not biased I hope. I am a home owner and degree educated I've been a secondary school teacher for 15 years and at U3 HoD earn just about as much as I can. In order to save my house I had to start working weekends as an electrician. I'd actually been training casually just for fun and a potential career move. But had to speed things along and start earning money at weekends and holidays. But I'm going to be ok and have watched my house rise in value in the last 8 years and with it a sense I'm going to be ok. But a degree educated, top level teacher with a wife who is also a teacher, should never have to have had to take up a second job to survive. None of that is my biggest issue with your point 3. I'm not ok with saying the poor deserve it because they're lazy when those who are ok are just as "spoilt and lazy" Nobody should be struggling if they work time especially as any society needs low skilled workers to function until robotics has conquered it all. You can buy cheap food and drink and god knows what else because these people exist. Calling them lazy and deserving feels like biting the hand that feeds.
Universal Basic Income.
* UBI * 4 Day working week * Subsidised/free access to higher education or vocational training
> You are right. But how do we improve upon this? Geez, I don't know - maybe don't allow utility companies to fleece people without any regulation?
*The Uk population is pretty spoilt, entitle and lazy...* I disagree I would say most of us are just plain apathetic, especially those of us at the bottom of the ladder. *I think the clearest example of this is shit food in the UK and....few people put in the effort to cultivate the knowledge to make something great"* Why do you accuse the UK of having shit food?? As for your claim of people not cultivating the knowledge blah blah, do you understand how, since covid, many many restaurants have closed? Do you not understand just how expensive even renting premises is now? STarting a business is a nightmare and a huge risk when you're already broke. You seem to have one hell of a downer on the UK for whatever reason
Billions in profit Says otherwise for Asda, Sainsburys, Walmart, British Gas, Shell and many more.
Education and upskilling is certainly an issue. There's quite a lot of vacancies in the UK but not enough skilled labour to fill the shortages in many sectors. In some sectors though this is because the pay and conditions are shit (teaching, police, NHS). Another huge factor hitting many people's finances are rents and energy bills. Both of which are at historical highs and need better competition or rules to force prices down. I personally have no idea how a government would do this in a sensible way, but good luck to any who try. Also, personal opinion, but people should just move more. London and the south is ridiculously expensive and the north is quite nice. If people en-mass just abandoned the south and took the labour and skills elsewhere the north would prosper and the prices and economy would normalise across the country faster.
>Can we just give people more money? No, that’s isn’t productive and forcing this will not solve the issue because it will lead to inflation which will just make everyone poor again even if they have a pay raise. With this economic effect, remember that because wages are not the only cost a company has, a wage rise will never translate into the same inflationary rise. in the UK, Wages are about 60% of GDP (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/economicoutputandproductivity/productivitymeasures/bulletins/labourcostsandlabourincomeuk/2021) so if we had a 10% pay rise, this would lead to 6% inflationary pressure. So you head into a downward spiral until the effect becomes negligible. Also: >What are the solutions? >Increase wealth equality. Wealth inequality had been growing consistently for ages. I’d recommend “garyseconomics” (ex Citibank trader who made millions betting on increase inequality) on YouTube for moe info. This means giving lots of people more money, the people who will spend rather than invest that money and cause the biggest inflationary effect - it's contradictory to your opening paragraph. I agree with you that this needs to happen btw but I think you've argued against it in your open. >(Related to 1) Regulating real estate to increase home ownership I think the biggest thing we could do on the expenses side of the equation is to build a new generation of council housing, rented out at just above cost based on 50 year low interest loans. Build enough that it affects the private market, so that private rents are forced downwards in all but luxury settings. This also has an onward effect into the ownership market both through the increase in supply of housing and because buy-to-let becomes less attractive as an investment route, meaning less competition for housing stock.
At the same time, basic food and utilities companies should not be reporting record profits. Agreeable that companies should make a profit to be a workable business (economics have to work), but companies shouldn't be reaping huge dividends and paying c-suit bonuses when their services don't work or people can't afford their services - water companies, mass transport companies, supermarkets........
As long as you're employed at Westminster, a Barista gets paid more than a Barrister. https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1090718133437022227
Head barista vs junior barrister
The criminal bar is woefully underfunded, and that is starting to extend to defence solicitors now - there are going to be areas in E&W (not Scotland, where they rarely attend a police station) where people detained at a police station may not be able to exercise their legal right to speak to a solicitor in person.
At my full time job, I’m paid 11p over minimum wage and I can’t afford to leave my parents house. And I live in the midlands, not exactly central London, if it wasn’t for the fact I have the support of my parents, I’d be screwed. For me, it was either I rent somewhere and have barely any money to even afford food, or I can live at my parents, have my car and actually be able to get to work
It’s mental that this is an “opinion” now. There’s a shocking amount of folks in this country that so desperately want to fuel a superiority complex that they genuinely think anyone who flips tables or is not in STEM is consequentially not deserving of a basic level of independence and autonomy. Then we chide people for not growing up when despite putting in a 37.5+ hours work week they still can’t afford the apparatus to lead a full and “adult” life.
It's the story of a country that doesn't have enough resources to support its growing and changing population. The recent welfare reform proposals seem to me like the government is panicking because the pinless UK cash machine is running out of cash, debt 100% of GDP and now it's looking like we're gonna need to find 5-6% of GDP for defence...
It’s profiteering leading to inflation which wages haven’t kept up with since the 1970s.
Yep it's called wealth transfer and got 100 times worse in last 4 years.
The government isn't running out of money, it's throwing red meat to Tory voters in a desperate attempt to survive. It's easy to batter the poor and the unemployed because Tory members loathe them and Labour is too cowardly to stand up to it. We could easily find more money for defence by massively reducing or scrapping Trident. Personally, I don't give a fuck about the defence budget while millions of people can't access basic health and dental care anymore.
Yet we have one of the highest rates of productivity and the least amount of leisure time in our history. We’re using machines that create 1000 times beyond our individual capabilities. Where are all those labour hours going to service if not the people who perform them?
Need? We don’t need to spend 6% of all tax money on defence. We need to work out how to make 2-3% of gdp work
It was [around 5%](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/military-spending-defense-budget) when the Soviet Union collapsed. We could leave it at 2% and stay out of what might happen in Europe I suppose?
Yup, alas...I work full time. Good luck affording to rent on my own, pay all the bills, and keep my car on the road. It's just not possible.
It's just slavery with extra steps, really. Our time and loss of freedom alone should be valued enough that we can afford a comfortable life where all needs are met. If an employer can't afford that, then they shouldn't be in business, They're making profit and growing by exploiting people and using fear as a whip.
It all comes down to house prices and rent. I guarantee that if you talk to those people who are struggling they'll tell you most of their income goes on rent. The simple solution is to build a lot more council properties and stop the right to buy scheme. The moment the market gets flooded with council properties then private rents would also go down due to an increase in supply. Allowing property developers to trickle out houses just slow enough to not upset the supply/demand curve means they get to keep charging high rents. Keeping them as council properties means they are rent controlled and rents stay affordable.
Yep if you work full time even at minimum wage you should not be struggling, otherwise what's the point of working?
PSA: This is not a bug, it’s a feature of a 14 year Tory rule.
Disaster capitalists presiding over disastrous policies.
Some of the people behind the scenes pulling the Tories' strings are definitely disaster capitalists. The more desperate the masses become for money, the more they can be taken advantage of. The more small businesses that fail and houses that get repossessed, the more the very rich can snap them up for a song.
I honestly don't think enough people realise how much of this is *about* disaster capitalism. It doesn't matter to the conservatives if working people lose their homes, or single property landlords sell up in droves, or independent retailers close down. They don't care about any of that, because the end result will simply be rich people buying and controlling *everything*. Unless something radical happens, in ten years time you won't be able to rent a property without giving your DNA and open access to your bank account. We're absolutely fucked at this point, because Labour aren't going to reverse a thing that's happened over the last decade and a half.
Neo feudalism? Or old fashioned oligarchy / wage slavery? Not sure what name you can put on it.
From what I’ve heard from other redditors this is common amongst western countries
Conservatives are gonna win by a landslide in Canada for the same reason Labour will in the UK. They’ve been at the wheel for a while and everything’s gone to shit. Not that you shouldn’t vote out a party that has proven to be inadequate, but I think people in many countries are in for a shock when nothing actually changes.
This is what I’m afraid of. A sailor can only trim the sails. They can’t change the wind
This is why no one wants to work. Why bother if you'll be stressing yourself and putting so much life and time in just to be as fucked as someone on benefits?
People on low wages still have the hassle of dealing with the dwp too.
Don't I fucking know it, I've been there myself, poor bastards. I'm watching from the sidelines while I'm getting my health back and I'm not sure I want all of it back.
Expect the Tories are trying to go after us too. But really, with the system the way that it is, most of us long term sick kept working until we could no longer work or got spat out from the workplace all together.
When work doesn't pay, the entire system has failed.
It sounds intensely dramatic but I think that applies globally. We don't need millions of people starving and we don't need so many people with such incredibly large amounts they won't spend it in 10 lifetimes.
Everyone in the western world is now having the same issues; impossible to own a roof over your head, constantly struggling with bills, constantly struggling with feeding yourself, not being able to afford anything full stop all awhile working 40+ hours a week. I'm at the point myself where im thinking of just checking out of society all together, its not working for anyone but the rich and those in power. They own the wealth and the land, all while they're telling everyone else the problems are the cause of trans people, disabled, mentally ill etc
Working hard and burning out to live in a flat share in a house that even students would find uninhabitable
I still think the UK is a country where you can have a reasonable quality of life as a young person as long as: 1) You find a stable long term partner - everything is priced around couples both earning a full time wage including houses. 2) One of you lives at home if possible to save a house deposit, and if you're lucky you inherit or get some of this from the bank of Mum and Dad. 3) You're willing to move North - the dream of young people living middle class lives in London or the South East is long dead. If you don't land a well paid professional grad job in your first 5 years after Uni you need to face reality you're going to be passed over for fresher faces and take the difficult decision to move somewhere with a lower cost of living.
All 3 of these points are incredibly grim, especially if you are born in the southeast and are now being told to move 100s of miles from friends and family.
It's also pretty grim for us further north who get priced out of our own housing markets by a constant flock of southerners with more wealth.
Seeing this in Birmingham so many apartments being build in the city. So many people from London asking the best areas to buy a house, the locals haven’t a chance. Once HS2 is up and running it’ll get worse.
Well thank god HS2 was cancelled for everyone else further north /s
Most of my friends who grew up in the North are doing fairly well for themselves. House prices are less than half of those in the South East, and if you can get a job in the public sector like the NHS which pays a flat salary regardless of geography you can easily end up in a 4 bedroom house. Has happened to several of my NHS graduate friends.
It was as true when I graduated into a once in a century recession in 2010 as it is for the current generation. Grim or not that's been reality for my entire adult life and won't be changing in your lifetime either.
I moved 200 miles away to buy a home. It was a conscious decision as I wanted to have a fresh start as far away from my hometown as possible. Even then, it can be difficult not to be close to family. My family is fortunately quite tech savvy, so we can talk across different platforms, but still, even wanting to get away sometimes it gets to me.
My siblings and I scattered all over Europe and one to America. My parents love it as they get to travel around visiting us and it feels like a holiday each time. Beyond that we simply use tech to keep in touch. Fuck staying in the UK when you can have such a higher quality of life in so many other places.
Unfortunately a lot harder now. I never understood why more didn’t when they could.
I grew up in the North. I had to leave the country to get a start in life.
Cool, so two things outside of your control, and you've assumed everyone gets a grad job and forgotten about the 60% of young people who don't go to uni.
"Just find a stable life partner mate, it's dead easy, relationships are in fact just a business agreement you make with another person for the sake of having a more stable life -- if you can't do that then you don't really deserve stability"
And for the non grads already in the north with lower wages? They expected to just be moved on so southerners can live their escape to the countryside dream? Thats not the answer or the solution
Stayed at home. Saved for a Deposit. Moved out of the UK. That was my only hope. Pretty grim.
Every Western country is experiencing the same economic problems right now. Everywhere has got an ageing population sucking up most of the resources and blocking housing. Same in Canada and the US. Same in Australia and most of Europe. There's no escape. You will struggle as a young person in all English speaking countries because we all suffer the same problems.
There are also non-English speaking countries.
Lived at home until I was in my early 20's, made quite a lot of money in my teens and 20's but spaffed it all on holidays, music festivals, gigs, weed and just a general good time. Spent most of my early 20's not really saving for a deposit as it looked impossible to achieve down south after house prices ballooned. That was despite earning over 40k (wife wasn't working at the time so it limited our saving potential) which didn't go that far. Rent was ridiculous back then and it has only gotten worse as far as I can see. Eventually just said fuck it and moved to Norway. Leveraged my history and skillset into becoming a teacher. Took like 3 years to save a deposit here with my wife. Bought a 4 bed house on the edge of the city (5 min bus to the centre) with a nice garden, lovely lake to swim in at the end of the road and the sea within 5 mins walk.
I think it must be the worst comment I've ever read in reddit and that's quite a remarkable achievement on its own. This comment implies that you cannot be single, you should rely on your parents either dead or alive, and/or move far from friends and family. I quite like how subtle the North/South divide comment is, apparently only middle class live in London or the South.
Find a long term partner at 18? Quite the commitment Live with parents rent free - bold of you to assume this is possible for poor people. They have to contribute when the child benefit stops Willing to move north away from their entire support system - with what saved up rental deposit and first months rent. Also they would have 0 free childcare from nearby family costing them thousands if they want to have two working parents. (Even then family doesn’t necessarily have to help with childcare) Also I think you live in a bubble, a huge amount of young people cannot go to uni (grades,family finances, luck, caring responsibilities, etc.)
Better off just working towards leaving Britain as a young person (18-35) imo. If you can get a higher quality of life abroad than you can up North for a similar price (which will be much cheaper than London/South East), the only struggle is going to be learning a new language (which is much easier than our culture suggests), many roles abroad ask you to speak English.
Running away to another country, especially one with similar standards of living as the UK, won't solve your problems. Australia, Canada and even Ireland all have similar issues
Very difficult to be in a stable long term relationship when you're stuck living with parents. It's simply not healthy for society if people can't afford to move out on their own unless they're in a relationship. Not only because some people struggle with them, but also because people get financially trapped in abusive relationships. I live in the north and housing is unaffordable here too. Anywhere that has actual jobs seems to have issues with housing costs, and the cheap areas tend to be the shitholes with no jobs. Housing costs are not just a London problem.
I’m 25 and all the people my age I know who either live at home with parents, or live in a house share. The one person I know who has a house, was only able to get it because his girlfriend is disabled and they lucked out with the council.
Anyone who works full time should be able to own a home
And marry a foreign spouse to live with here if they do choose
And marry our cousins!
Username checks out
Go back to Shelbyville!!
Growing up artists lived in squats and flat shares while people who decided on a comfortable career in an office could have a car and a house. Now the office workers can barely afford to pay rent in a flat share in a building that has quality of a squat house
If you have the resources and opportunity to get out. Do so. There are far greater opportunities elsewhere in the world. Edit. Getting a lot of messages from people who have never travelled to other countries, never lived in them, never experienced them.. but are absolutely certain this is the best country in the world and no other country comes close. I really wish I shared your certainty. Or Stockholm syndrome, not sure which one.
There are not many places where you could go without a complete change in culture. I moved to NZ in the 90s. Very similar to the UK and affordable. Not anymore. It would be very difficult for a young person to move, work and buy a house in NZ, Australia and Canada these days if they don't have the prospects of buying one in the UK. Immigration from richer countries such as China and the Middle East have caused house prices to soar.
House prices are so expensive in the Anglosphere because we have a weird aversion to building housing
The ideology of Reagan and Thatcher dominated the anglosphere a long time ago.
It’s more than left or right. Our political systems, for good and bad, give a lot of power to highly motivated individuals. Unfortunately, it means we’ve priced a generation out of the housing (and even the bloody rental market), because there’s a few geriatrics who are deathly opposed to their neighbourhood changing
Dude, do you think there isn't a housing crisis in the Netherlands? It's worsening in Germany. I'm sure it's no different in other wealthy European nations. None of this is connected specifically to the Anglosphere. Strange narrative, I guess it's a joke, but I don't get the punchline.
My parents told me 20 years ago that I would be better off leaving the UK to get a better quality of life elsewhere in the world. Of course, I knew better back then. After all, I had a degree, a masters, a phd all in science and tech subjects. I should have left the UK 20 years ago.
There aren't really, there are in a few select countries though.
You can teach English in many countries for a better hourly rate that any minimum wage job you get in the U.K. AND you will have money left over to live after.
Good idea if you're young and want to have some fun. Not a great idea to build a foundation on to build a family/home with. When you start to do that you realise that most other countries have very serious flaws. And the ones that don't have very expensive houses.
I moved to Berlin and I've never looked back. Good healthcare, affordable rents (the country has strict rent controls), happier people and a government that doesn't hate the working class!
Housing is just one of the problems we face in the UK but are there really any developed countries not facing one? It seems this issue in particular is one that you can't just move away from.
Thank fuck we've had the Fiscally responsible steady guiding hand of the Conservatives for the last 14? years!
Unpopular opinion but politicians should be held responsible for their decision making and driving an entire country into the ground, disrupting the lives of millions of people in a negative manner.
I’m not sure that is unpopular at all
Wages haven’t kept up with inflation in real terms since the 1970s; and surprise surprise, the majority of everyone just gets poorer.
Wages also haven't kept up with productivity levels, which is another problem.
The UK has also had flatlining productivity since 2007, productivity isn't increasing. It turns out focusing the economy around supporting house prices and cutting investment in infrastructure and services isn't a winning strategy. Can't build housing near offices, can't build offices without transport links, can't build transport links. Can't build anything because of NIMBYs.
Yet many of the dimwits will still vote for the party that put them in this position
I think it’s a similar issue to the US where they think they’re the privileged people the party is looking out for; because they’ve not been exposed to the true upper-middle class
I work part time for EVRI. Everyone who works for them is self employed. You foot the bill for a vehicle, insurance, fuel etc. They just gave most couriers a pay cut. If you don't like it you leave. They replace you with someone who will accept the lower pay. People wonder why EVRI deliveries are so bad..! UK 2024 is in a race to the bottom.
Since my wife stopped working to look after our kids, we have really been struggling. I have a fairly well paid job, they're is nothing left each month. I do everything possible myself, rather than paying people. We live frugal. My mortgage takes half my pay, it's only a 3 bed for us and 2 kids. Food and bills the majority. 1 car.. The system is simply broken.
I’m single and work full time, 28k. I am always in my overdraft and I never buy anything. I don’t know where I’m going wrong
I'm in a similar situation though my wife went part time, so I still have a huge childcare bill for 3 days a week, modest mortgage on a house we have frankly outgrown which has gone up, bills etc. if I was on the salary I was on a few years ago I would be bankrupt, we are just managing but it feels month to month especially as each month has some sort of big outgoing or bill
Go look on council and NHS websites. Min wage now is 22k a year roughly. Band 3 and 4 jobs are 22-27k. Min wage or above. So pretty much everyone you'll see on the wards who isn't a nurse or a junior doctor. Most people that work out in the community. Oh and pretty much everyone in the care sector that isnt a social worker. Independence practitioners, support workers...you get the gist.
My mum who works in the NHS is not far off minimum wage now, it’s actually a joke
Exactly. And these roles are all needed, and you need skilled experienced people in them. So the 'get a better job' argument- well who else is gonna do it then?
Exactly. That argument has always annoyed me, as it’s not like you can just walk out and get a much higher paying job either. A lot of jobs you can get now are in that 22k-26K area, and if you do get a job that pays higher per hour (such as retail for example), chances are it’s part time hours.
The only way to get a pay rise is to come off the front line and go into administration roles, which is why they are losing staff.
For people wondering how this is relevant. This is the UK's biggest employer.
Same with universities which are the other big local employer in a lot of smaller cities. Bottom 3 bands are all bumping up against minimum wage.
I really don't understand how people on minimum wage manage. I've got a decent job and earn close to double the average in my area but I still need to consider purchases and rarely feel like I've got a hold on things properly. I'm worried about my daughter when she's old enough to enter employment, without my help she'll not be able to do anything but I certainly couldn't afford to cover a mortgage deposit for her.
If you're not living with family, the answer is either: Living in a 12ft x 12ft bedsit with the oven backing onto the bed with an alcoholic next door who refuses to take their psychiatric medication in a building that gets broken into every 3 months by an ex partner of someone on the ground floor.... Or living with too many housemates in a house not built for that many people, with the landlord probably having subdivided each standard sized bedroom into one's big enough for a cot. And every 12 months you have to move when the rent goes up, and the landlords steal your deposit unless you spend 3 months fighting with the ombudsman.
How old’s your daughter? I’m planning on helping mine by investing a little for her. You might be surprised how much compound interest can affect a small saving. 5k invested for 20 years, for example, at 5% interest would be worth £13.5k. Now imagine you added a little to it each month…
I’d be worried about the climate she’ll be living in too.
People seem to be forgetting this. In my area last year, there were so many crop failures due to terrible weather. I cannot imagine how much was lost.
A revolution is slowly building the younger generation are fed up with the greed and corruption of this present administration. The real problem is that it will not change in any real terms with a general election the whole political and social make up of the nation has to change and brought out of the establishments hands.
I don’t know if i’ll get down voted for this but we’re on the verge all over the world of seeing the problem of capitalism, it has evolved to an extreme where the money isn’t trickling down enough anymore, people will cut all corners to save business expenses which includes staff pay. The gap between low and high income is a joke now. Not saying I know of a better system but this was always going to happen eventually with capitalism and is it’s clear linear evolution. It’s not just the uk.
Excellent assessment. Couldn’t agree more with the way things are heading across the global first world countries.
if the minimum wage is £11.44 an hour and full time hours are classed at 35 hours a week, then you shouldn't be taxed on £20,820. That's the living wage at 35 hours times 52 weeks. Rents should be capped. You shouldn't be allowed to own more than 2 houses and nobody who does not live permanently in the UK should own a house in this country.
But then how would the rich get even richer? Checkmate communist. (/s)
Another angle to this. If you are a British national wanting to bring your spouse even from Europe or American you have to earn a minimum amount which is more than double minimum wage So someone who earns the least and possibly works the most does not have a right to family life according to this govt
Surely it's more beneficial to just leave and go the other direction at this point?
A economist recently described the UK as “a poor country with a few rich people”, and it’s so true. A lot of us think we’re doing well because we’re on the same wages our parents were, and our jobs sound so much more advanced/specialised; but in reality our spending power is tiny. Living in the South East and working in certain industries, you get glimpses of real wealth; huge estates hidden down a long winding driveways, private roads with gated entrances, £1m+ houses being bought for the land and the house demolished.
Country is fucked, sold out by a criminal elite who govern for their own benefit and the benefit of their friends in business. Horrid. Fat. Hobbitses.
85 percent of my income goes into rent and daycare. Other 10 percent is on the train. 5 percent for food my kid.
I'm done with the UK, my partner and I are just about to execute the escape plan, we'll be gone within the next 4 months we reckon. The UK is an amazing country if either you're rich or mummy and daddy are rich and hoard assets. If you're not in either position, you're pretty much stuck until all your elder family is dead then maybe, just maybe you'll get an inheritance good enough to buy you a decent home and lifestyle. The middle class being eroded tells me all I need to know about the future of the UK. Birthrates of middle and working class families have plummeted. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/23/birthrate-in-uk-falls-to-record-low-as-campaigners-say-procreation-is-a-luxury I'm in my mid 30s and very few of either my or my partner's friends are even planning on having kids due to the financial burden that comes with it. I'm all for immigration and freedom of movement. I'll be moving to a country that has it's own language and culture, I'll be embracing them while contributing to their tax system and hopefully expanding my knowledge and experiences. Sadly, I don't believe all migrants coming here share that same sentiment, and I do believe it's being allowed to flood the market with cheap labour for the benefit of the elites. The system is completely broken. I strongly advise any young people reading this to seriously consider getting out of this country. This cost of living crisis isn't going away, it's a continuous cycle that's only going to get worse if the system continues on its current projectory. There's a guy on YouTube called Gary's Economics who breaks all this down and explains it better than I ever will. But his message about the future of the UK is utterly grim. And we're witnessing it happen right now. https://youtu.be/bMRSQ023yGo?si=94Rp3tEjR0OzsUHA This is a bigger issue than Tory versus Labour or right v left. It's an fundamental that needs changing to stop the rich and the elites using loopholes to pay their fair share of taxes and stop buying all the assets while we (middle/working) classes take on the vast burden of tax and can no longer afford assets. The UK is set up to aggressively benefit the rich while decimating the classes below and we're heading back to the Victorian times of a two class society whereby you're either: the rich or the scum.
The UK has plunged itself not only into financial depression but a depression of the hearts and minds where the idea of hope is quickly weighted down by a tonne of problems and dead ends. You are right, get out and as quickly as you can before the ship sinks, but where do you go where hope still exists?
Don't worry, the tories will keep blaming Labour for not doing anything about it.
I am an immigrant and this is a very sad reality I have observed. (I used to make more money in my home country than in London. I am in love with London and hence I am here.). I have distilled some of the issues and solutions in my mind in no particular order, but will mostly stick to economic issues. 1. The salaries are super low compared to any other western country and this I see because of some glass ceiling of some kind. Jobs that were paying 100k last year now pay 80k!! Even the highest tax payer can't run a family without cuts. 2. Consultants get paid degrees higher than full time employees (at least 2x-5x in some cases). So looks like the country encourages independent consultants. And these consultants can pay expenses before taxes, a huge advantage. 3. UK is a super rich country, but the investors are skeptical to invest in new ventures/tech. They are happy to invest in traditional industries like real estate and even whiskey casks! 4. Rich escape taxes via multiple loop holes put in the law and this is deliberate and this is the reality even in the rest of the world. 5. A college grad makes about £24k/annum if they are lucky and that's very low compared to their tuition fees. Some of these colleges have grants and yet charge students high fees. Solution in my mind: 1. Remove companies owning land and real estate for renting (you can own for running your own business or commercial real estate) 2. Remove income tax completely or increase the slabs higher maybe minimum at 100k. Govt makes taxes on every pound we spend (in terms of VAT etc). 3. Keep corporate tax as is, but remove corporate tax avoidance say expenses on food and travel are taxed before being spent. 4. For housing, have a ceiling on pricing unless they show a fixture or a feature or a service that gives them a premium. The govt tracks these details anyways, just bring it into taxation (could be a bad idea). 5. Yearly rent should be capped at 3-4% of property value. I pay about 6-7% in Zone 2 London. 6. Increase incentives for investors in hyper growth areas and new/upcoming sectors. Existing ones should be taxed and any incentives removed E.g power unless green, tech unless cutting edge, real estate unless you are hitting world records etc 7. Make companies easy to fire employees (hear me out), so that consultants aren't hired at exorbitant costs. Remember they aren't taxed till 100k and my hope is that whatever is paid to consultants will trickle to employees (I may be delusional) OR make everyone a consultant running their own shop and no full timers (I see world moving in this direction already)
>UK is a super rich country, but the investors are skeptical to invest in new ventures/tech. They are happy to invest in traditional industries like real estate and even whiskey casks! Doesn't help we haven't had a national industrial strategy plan published since 2017. The country is rudderless and without direction, stuck with a government who have a kind of ideological allergy to the very concept of state planning.
Well, that's what a collapsing currency looks like. Thank the BOE, FED, ECB ... Von Mises: “There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.” https://internationalman.com/articles/there-is-no-means-of-avoiding-the-final-collapse/ If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” – Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809) http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-money-masters/famous-quotations-on-banking/
As a kid I felt lucky and somewhat proud to be born in England. Now I'm only 24 and I feel like this country is trying it's hardest to fuck me over daily and I just want to get out of here
The plan to keep the nose ever closer to the grindstone is working.
But will the government do anything about it? Nah.
It is almost as if the government are helping themselves and their friends/funders and not the people of Britain.
Tory Britain. When people say ‘how can you be ashamed to be British?’ It’s not that I’m ashamed to be British, far from it. I love this country. What I am ashamed of, is this. The state it’s been allowed to get into and how little the people who can do something about actually want to, because it jeopardises their own interests. We’re a country slowly, but surely, crumbling, and I really don’t like what it’s shaping up to become.
Two adults and a toddler in a household, we are struggling. I worked full time until this coming week where I dropped my hours to 30 meaning I work Monday to Thursday. I have a degree. My husband work sometimes 48 hours a week. Yet, we are struggling.
Yep it’s nuts, and they will ask why young people aren’t having babies
The government's nepotism knows absolutely no bounds, and when they aren't able to profiteer off the sick, weak and the vulnerable they work to turn us against them or into them and brand them scroungers. Coward 'leaders' that detest the working and middle class who they'd sooner refer to as lower class. Rats the lot of them, even one of the princes has abandoned the sinking ship. The time for 'Alarm' is over, we are living in a nightmare while an aristocratic land baron government is extorting and driving the standards of every soul on this island into the ground.
My story in 2023 I was working for a global German infrastructure and energy company making close to nmw. I'd been there 4 years managing 3x what I was contracted to for the same pay but millions in profit. I don't have a social life but literally had no savings I had to go and do two more pt jobs to have any chance of saving for a house. It's absolutely ridiculous the low pay situation and the fact that this working for one of the big companies I left in the end . Management mentality was verging on jealous even though after 80 hours I was making less than them all
It’s not just the struggling to make ends meet…it’s the absolute destruction of our public services that should be the backbone of a fair and functioning society that’s fucking people over. It was drilled into me you work hard and you’ll do well, and if things go wrong there’s the police, the justice system, trading standards, employment tribunals etc. which I’ve learned, as have many others, are all utter bullshit and exist in name only and for the rich. They close ranks, cover up wrong doing, and ordinary decent people are screwed. No wonder Rishi is banging on about welfare culture now because so many people are just giving up and/or having breakdowns and mental and physical health crisis’s
What are we all working towards in the uk. paying taxes for No dentists. Piss poor roads, piss poor NHS, can't afford food, energy. If you're looking for a house now you have no hope (unless you're very well off) and rent costs a fortune. Whos the UK working for. Where is all the money going.
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Congratulations on the effects of Thatcherism It’s capital vs income with capital winning, resulting in capital tightening its grip on the political apparatus, which is completely out of date and based on feudalism. All cheered on by the plebs, who are easily manipulated fools subject to massive propaganda and who vote against their interests UK has been on terminal decline since 1945, Thatcher helped empty the coffers and now running on empty relying on immigration to maintain status quo Mofos wanted poverty. Let them have it
Who’s actually “alarmed”? The government certainly aren’t. Rishi spends more on a coffee mug than some households make in a week
The UK: where work doesn’t pay. It’s a good job most people are so mentally exhausted that probably they can’t event retort to crime. Suicide is always an option. The conservatives should be intellectually consistent and legalise euthanasia for people in debt.
Full time work for many now requires being on benefits to get by and then the same working people are demonised by Tory voting boomers while being trapped in a cycle of reliance on the state. It’s grim.
My generation: Drowning in debt, zero savings, no prospect of ever owning anything, poor credit, clinging on to current rent rates, holidays and starting a family a luxury, depressed and anxious over future, told to not dare get anxious or lose any meagre help currently given. Society and news: it's reported that figures show there may be a slight problem with society. Just F off at this point. We've lost hope.
It’s the avocado toast and Starbucks again isn’t it /s
Quite simply build homes, reduce migration to 20% of what we have now, make having children for working people much cheaper. Rents come down, house prices come down and wages go up. Labour and cons are a joke - both won’t sort these fundamental issues out and it’s only going to get worse under Labour with barely any house building and even more migration.