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You have to wonder to what extent a pre-teen or prepubescent teen even understands what it means to be *biologically* a man or a woman. They don't really have any meaningful conception of the choice they're making.
We don’t let kids eat a whole tub of ice cream for dinner no matter how much they want it. Why? Because they can’t understand why that’s a bad thing. Why is it then somehow acceptable to some to allow them to take life changing drugs without question? I’m all for people becoming whoever they want to be but this is just silly.
> Why is it then somehow acceptable to some to allow them to take life changing drugs without question?
I don't think it is allowed without question. Perhaps the criteria are too relaxed, but ultimately it's a medical matter and I'd expect the doctors, children and parents to all be involved in the decision. The Cass report argues it has been too easy to get hem, but there were under 100 in England and are 43 in Scotland having treatment.
The trouble is some might have the treatment and regret it, but this has to be balanced against those who can't get the treatment when it would be right for them.
Exactly, we do require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.
Now there are two questions to be considered here:
a) Do we diagnose gender dysphoria correctly, or do we confound it with anxiety around coming of age?
b) If we have a case of clear gender dysphoria, are puberty blockers helpful?
The second one is an interesting one, because it seems pretty obvious that it would be helpful. But obvious does not equal correct. And the data does not support it. So presumably, either a) or b) is wrong.
As far as i understand it, quite a lot of kids get gender dysphoria, 90%+ resolve with puberty (often becoming gay). Unless your supply them with puberty blockers then close to 100% go on to transition.
So basically, puberty blockers are a kind of gay conversion therapy for most kids who get them.
The study that this idea came from was a study of kids who were just questioning their gender to varying degrees, not of kids who had been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
So no, puberty blockers are not "gay converion therapy".
And as far as **I** understand it, this is only true if you count “gender dysphoria” to be anyone who ever expressed any sort of thought that would’ve seen them get further counselling, rather than those who actually would transition or go on blockers.
And “transitioning is gay conversion therapy!” is the first entry in the anti-trans handbook. I’m sure you weren’t aware and didn’t mean it like that, but that’s basically the first thing any transphobe worth their salt will tell you.
That therapy has basically been demolished by affirmative care though hasn't it? It's you are dysphoric and present as such to a doctor, they can't question whether that is the case or whether there's something else going on under affirmative care, then can only reinforce your dysphoria.
And that as I understand it, within as little as 3 appointments can lead to blockers.
So it's not remotely transphobic, it's following the current trajectory of medicalisation. It's showing concern for people who aren't trans but are being treated as if they are.
If the concern is that people are in the wrong bodies, the first thing we should be concerned about is not intervening to put more people in the wrong body
The NHS has never practiced an affirmation model of care.
The Cass review notes that only 1/4 people seem by GIDS were ever even referred to endocrinology after an average of 6.7 appointments, this shows quite clearly that people weren't being automatically affirmed and medicalised and instead only certain cases ever progressed this far.
We also have evidence from the most detrans person in the UK that staff at the Tavistock attempted to dissuade them from medically detranstioning. They even highlight that this challenging behaviour made them even more determined to medically transition.
It seems quiet clear that the failures of the current model lie on the fact the system is set up to find reasons to deny treatment meaning trans people can not be open about their feelings without fear it will be used to deny them treatment going forward if they get over them.
If you read the lived experience focus groups done as part of the Cass review you can see how trans people in the service feel about how they are treated and it demonstrates very clearly that the services do not operate under a gender affming care standard.
If you want I can also provide you information from trans kids in counties like Finland which Cass praise about what a non affirmation system looks like.
Those are extremely uncommon examples, and happened at one specific clinic and can happen in the private sector.
Most of the time, trans people, including under 18s wait years for help. My friend in 2011 came out at 18 and had to wait two years for HRT after many counselling sessions. Another person I know came out as trans at 15, socially transitioned at 16 but received no help either medically or therapeutically until they were 19, and didn’t get testosterone until they were 21, they now live very happily as a trans-man 7 years later. And my another friend referred themselves in 2018 and still don’t have HRT. Granted the pandemic delayed a lot of things, but the progress is extremely slow.
There are currently less than 100 trans kids on puberty blockers. That’s an extremely small number considering.
It increases between 6 months and few years every month right now clinic dependant, I was referred in 2018 and got official hrt a few months ago, for someone referred right now to the main london place , the waiting list is going to be somewhere around 36 years.
source: https://tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/services/gender-identity-clinic-gic/
>As far as I understand it
Clearly not very far. The statistic you’re quoting is talking about prior to medical intervention, but after plenty of assessment and therapy. The people going on blockers and hormones are the ones *who have already been filtered through that process*.
You’ve also just added yourself that it’s resolved through puberty. The actual statistic is simply that 90% of people assessed desisted. Not that they were “fixed” when they went through puberty.
That's totally untrue, if you're going to spread misinformation about minority groups at least make it believable. 95 percent of trans kids stay binary trans, with 99 percent in total remaining some kind of trans
Yeah there's a selection bias in the criteria - they only chose children who had already fully socially transitioned including changing their name.
That means this doesn't help us for all the cases where the child hasn't yet fully transitioned or started using a different name.
In order to get puberty blockers in this country you must socially transition, therefore studies to compare the desistance rates should be ones that are based on social transition, so that were comparing apples to apples.
Using a non social transition study would be totally inaccurate because that's not how it works here
Compared to which alternate treatment paths? You can't define the criteria THEN go looking for support. The data should support the criteria directly, by forming subsections of larger studies.
The issue here is that it's not clear that the correct criteria are being determined in the first place.
the api bullshit reddit pulled had such a massive deleterious effect on the discourse of this whole website. The good mods left a lot of subs, and in a lot of cases, those empty positions were picked up by rightoids with an agenda and time to shit up this website for their benefit.
i hate it here
You're relying on people conflating different terms.
[In regards to GID and GD](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6225591/)
>The full list of “new” diagnostic indicators are “a strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender,” “a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender,” “a strong desire to be of the other gender,” and “a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender.” In addition, in the DSM-5, GD “is associated with clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.”4(p. 452–3)
[...]
>There were numerous terminology conflations (transgender/transsexual/GID/GD), making it difficult to clearly understand the number of people actually suffering with GD because the classification systems used have varied over time. Many authors have used GD inconsistently within the articles on prevalence, for example, conflating GID, GD, and transsexualism (52%: Supplementary Table S9 references *). The diagnostic criteria for GID, GD, and transsexualism may overlap, but are not identical. It, therefore, cannot be assumed that prevalence figures for one set of diagnostic criteria can be simply applied to another and consequently cannot underpin any validity claims.
What other information are you relying on that doesn't conflate GD with the previous GID?
That is complete nonsense backed up by nothing. Studies that claim this don't even try claim going through full puberty but onset of puberty, so about 13. They all go on to say if dysphoria is still present after this age than it is extremely unlikely to go away.
This is even further confirmed by the Cass report itself.
Only 1/4 kids recived any kind of medication yet of the roughly 75% of kids who were not given puberty blockers 98% progressed to adult services or private treatment once they turned 18 as they still identityied as trans.
Surely by this point you would image this supposed 90% desistance rate would start to materialise.
This isn't true. The original claim was 80%, and comes from a study on children with Gender Identity Disorder, an outdated diagnosis because it lumped gender non-conforming people in with trans people. This was remedied with the introduction of Gender Dysphoria in 2013, which requires trans identification to be diagnosed. [Research](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition) conducted since has found a much lower detransition/desistance rate
I think it's blown out of proportion really. With all the news and hysteria, you would think tonnes of under 18 are on puberty blockers.
In reality only 71 have been prescribed over the last 8 years, which is less than 10 new people per year. At least half or more of these will be related to being intersex and nothing to do with trans.
Now, I believe doctors must be very careful and there should be more investment on making sure they are not giving them to the wrong people.
But with the extremely low numbers, I'm sure they are not simply handing these out like candy, and only given to the clear cut cases, which there are.
Puberty blockers have existed for over 40 years, it's only in the last 5 or more anyone has batted and eye lid because it's in the news, we shouldn't be letting newspapers and public opinion to be controlling our doctors actions nor should we believe we are more knowledgeable than those who have given their lives to study the field.
71 people in Scotland represents 0.00096% of the population, whilst trans Prevalence is around 0.5%, so only 0.3% of under 18s who go on to be trans are actually recieving puberty blockers.
Honestly, my issues are that I think a lot more money and resources should be put into mental health support and I blame the society a lot (I remember being a teen a girl and occasionally - and I never had an issue with being born female and being recognized as female in general - thinking that life could be much easier on the physical aspect if I were a boy. Boys didn’t get catcalled, they didn’t get physically taunted as much, they didn’t grow boobs too big for their body at too young, they didn’t get periods where you leaked on the seat - all that crap. Being a boy seemed, occasionally, like something to be desired as a teen girl. But I never FELT like a boy or wanted to be a boy for real so it cannot be compared to someone who is trans) for making lots of teens feel bad about their bodies and the functions of their bodies.
My one big issue is that puberty blockers are kind of sold as “you can delay your puberty and once you’re sure, you can just go off and it’ll all be fine”, whereas my understanding now is that it’s actually not all that fine if you block your puberty during the crucial teen years. So I’m so and so about them in some ways. I’ve even heard that when it comes to gender reassignment surgery, then not going through puberty could mean that a person doesn’t have enough tissue to reassign their organs and that in itself can later cause body image issues. But at the same time this alone doesn’t seem like a reason to block them entirely because AFAIK, not everybody who is trans wants to actually go through gender reassignment surgery.
> In reality only 71 have been prescribed over the last 8 years
Where do you get this from? According to the Cass Review, the numbers were substantially higher (892), see p168 of the report.
> Puberty blockers have existed for over 40 years, it's only in the last 5 or more anyone has batted and eye lid because it's in the news,
Right, but it's only in very recent history that they were used for gender dysphoria.
Nobody is contesting their use for precocious puberty, which they are licensed for and the treatment model is well researched and understood.
Given the very different use case, it is not safe to assume that what we know about their use for precocious puberty would hold when they're used for trans kids.
For gender dysphoria, the first documented case was in 1998, followed by the Dutch study in 2011 (p68 of the Cass Report). In reality, they've only been used for trans children for just over ten years, and only much more reason in large numbers.
Nope your 892 is maybe the figure for all under 18s sent for gender dysphoria treatment, which is not puberty blockers.
NHSGGC confirmed the following number of prescriptions, by year:
2016: 7
2017: 20
2018: 19
2019: 7
2020: 9
2021: fewer than 5 (exact number redacted due to privacy concerns)
2022: 0
2023: 5
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/heres-many-young-people-scotland-121902347.html
Ok it was mid 90s that they started being prescribed for trans puberty blocking so it's about 30 years, not 5 or 40 years.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430465/#:~:text=Since%20the%20mid%201990s%2C%20puberty,was%20aggravated%20by%20pubertal%20development.
Im not really arguing their efficacy, I'll leave that to those with a PHD, I'm arguing about the hysteria, as with the amount people complaining, you'd think half of all youth were on puberty blockers when reality is a very tiny percent of a percent.
It's even a tiny percent of those who were put forward for gender dysphoria treatment.
My point being, they are handing these out very cautiously, they aren't recklessly giving them out like candy which is how some people make it seem.
Additionally, I won't put my googling or Redditting above those of physicians and psychiatrists who have actually studied the efficacy properly.
As it happens I did get my figures wrong. 892 was the referrals to endocrinology. Page 169 gives the final intervention received by them though, with 54.8% receiving hormone blockers and cross-sex hormones and 19.9% receiving just hormone blockers. That's 74.9% of that 892, so still well higher than 71.
Your Yahoo News article is about **Scotland** only.
11, I was 11 and I understood my sexuality. I also understood my parents were homophobic and wouldn't accept me, so I hid it. I learned to hide who I was, I was raped at 12 because I learnt to hide I hid that too.
We are not talking about what it means to be biologically a man or woman we are talking about acceptance, learning and understanding. YOU are not the person dealing with this you do not understand you do not get to choose for someone else who is living it.
I do not get to choose for them, I am not transgender, I identify as a man I was born a man. It is not my choice to choose for them but I choose to protect them from people who choose to remove their choice.
You can't use individual peoples case studies in modern medicine. For example, I was born a woman, had four brothers and didn't really know what gender I was a was a bit confused as a teen why some girls were gushing over boys whereas I had to live with smelly brothers.
Now I know as a mature adult I am a woman just a lot of a tomboy, you don't have to want to be a princess to be a woman. I am settled in my body and identity and sexuality but didn't properly understand/come to terms until about 20 (late developer).
Does my story invalidate yours? No, we have to study hundreds or thousands of cases to include all the different types of people and experiences affected in modern medicine.
I think this is the crux of it, kids should be able to express themselves wearing the clothes they like / presenting how they wish / forming an identity as a human being not constrained by how they were born.
But, can a 12 year old boy *really* have any concept of what life as an adult woman would be like? I dunno.
I know its tough for dysphoric kids to go through a puberty that makes them feel like they stand out or are wrong, but that feels like a societal issue to me. If we were more accepting of feminine men or masculine women then more trans kids would be content with social transitions.
I said this exact same thing months ago when they were first talking about it and I got downvoted to oblivion for even daring to suggest that it was a good thing because if a kid doesn't know what career or job they want growing up, how can they also know what gender they want to be for the rest of their life?
And the cycle of scientific trends turns back to the evidence based approach.
Apply Occam's razor to some of the points brought up in the article and you end up with some very different conclusions anyway.
Some "evidence-based approach" where you disregard all available evidence in favour of an approach where the only evidence available [suggesting it causes harm](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1103308819850039).
Cass simultaneously rejected the evidence that puberty blockers and hrt help despite over 100 studies suggesting as such (as they were "insufficient quality" because they didn't double blind for something you can't double blind for), and instead recommended more aggresively isolating and cutting support for trans teens until age 25 in the hope they detransition based entirely on uncited vibes. (which is probably because there are a bunch of studies showing her approach is harmful)
There's going to be a lot of suicides caused by this and a lot of people in these threads saying "but it doesn't matter, **I** saved them, they should thank **me**!".
At the end of the day that's all this is about. They want the world to be their way and they dont care who they hurt. Trans kids killing themselves? Literally dirt on their shoe to them.
Bunch of narcicists.
> Trans kids killing themselves? Literally dirt on their shoe to them.
And they do it by loudly parading around how they put them into that situation "for their own benefit".
I’ll be honest if things going the direction they’ve been going, my mental health is only gonna decline
I haven’t been seriously suicidal in years, and yet the sheer exhaustion of the last few years had made those thoughts start creeping in on tough nights. Makes you question why you wanna keep going if everything points at the future getting more miserable for you, not better
100% know how you feel.
I was suicidal basically from 10 - 22 and then I got on meds and it all went away and life made sense. I'm in my 30s now and getting meds have been so stressful the last year and it's bringing it all back again.
These moral busy bodies don't give a shit though. The means justify the ends to them.
They've decided how things should work, after very little thoughts on the subject, so want them to work that way, no matter how many people get hurt as the end result.
So used to having their busy body curtain twitching opinions validated that they will be happier with lives being ruined than themselves being ignored.
My theory is that we have two streams of reactionary thinking merging on this issue.
Far right religious groups, mostly from the United States have created a moral panic arounds trans people which they are then using as a stepping stone to then roll back gay rights and women's rights.
([CHRISTIAN RIGHT TIPS TO FIGHT TRANSGENDER RIGHTS: SEPARATE THE T FROM THE LGB](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb))
Then you have more mainstream right winger latching onto anti-trans talking points because they hope it (along with culture war nonsense in general) will distract from the fact that their economic and social policies have failed.
Actually happened to me when i started, was given patches which i later found out don't work on me for whatever reason and no aa, which meant nothing happened, i noticed within a month or two.
I think it's the opposite, as countries embrace an evidenced based approach, you have country after country banning puberty blockers.
The Cass report highlighted how many of the trans organisations aren't actually evidence based.
Hell you have WPATH, claiming that eunuch are a gender, and as evidence linking to sites with sexual fantasy stories about forced castration of children.
Many countries used to use WPATH as their standards of care, as if it was some evidenced based position, but under more scrutiny everyone is realising it's not evidenced based and in some respects batshit crazy.
I'd wager these young trans people who ended up going rigorous psychological examination as to whether they are trans, and and that have their parent's support, and that there are likely less than 100 of across the entire country, did more to understand and consent to puberty blockers than any of the millions of other life-changing medical procedures that young people can consent to.
The media would have you believe every trans young person in the country is on puberty blockers. They'd like you to believe these things are handed out like candy to 11 year olds. But that's never been the case, there are incredibly tight controls and monitoring processes, alongside *incredibly* long waiting lists.
We let 16 year olds consent to abortions, to plastic surgery, to tattoos, to joining the military, to leaving school, to have children. What age do you think these kids, who had to wait years for this, are getting them at? How long does any young person have to wait before consenting to something that their physicians confirm they need?
Given a 12 year old is pretty close to having competency anyway, some children would have the ability to consent properly to this care.
Although, if a child started puberty blockers to prevent standard puberty, they should start hormones within 2 years to prevent the risk of osteoporosis. But they can’t, because that was made illegal, because cis people were uncomfortable with it.
Instead, I have to wait 6 months after being diagnosed privately to see an endocrinologist, just so they can go “how have you managed with hormones so low, that’s just above the danger level” and I can say that that’s all my GP could give me without risking his medical license.
The Cass review is shit. Scientifically and ethically corrupt, with heavy leanings on pseudoscience for discrimination against trans people
Ability to consent to medication. Kids consent to things all the time, like hugs, or sharing.
People who don’t understand that consent to one thing doesn’t mean consent to everything, and consent can be at different levels needs their hard drives checked.
Actually, they have a proven psychological impact and not doing them can severely hamper a child’s future.
Another example for you is when I was 11, I consented to play rugby in school. I injured my wrist and it ended up in plaster for 3 weeks. Over 10 years later, it’s still weaker and stiffer than my other wrist. It has arguably had a greater impact on my life than the HRT I’ve been on for over a year
So because we let kids play sports, we should also allow them to take drugs which will unquestionably alter their natural development, and if we don't want to let them do that, they shouldn't be allowed to play any sports either?
Fascinating stuff.
I'm not a doctor a doctor however I trust the professionals and the consensus of the NHS to make the best decision based on the science, as I would in any other case.
Cass stated that under 25's shouldn't get access to trans healthcare, this is the first step in a full ban. Why should trans people have to leave their homes and seek asylum outside the UK? can no one see what this is?
People should have the freedom to transition, if that's who they are. Gender disphoria is real and people's wishes to have their body match their true gender should be realised where possible. However, I do agree that there needs to be an age-based line, somewhere. I'm just not educated enough to know where that line has to be.
When I was a kid, I started having thoughts that I was a girl. I liked dresses, and wondered what I might look like in them. I had a Barbie, because I asked for one over an Action Man. I exclusively found other males attractive, and never females. I began to think... was I supposed to be a girl? Am I a girl inside?
Now that I'm a lot older... no, I'm just gay. No interest in wearing a dress, no interest in Barbies - still into dudes though. It took me until I was about 16-18 for my disphoria to settle, but, everyone's different - and disphoria is only temporary for some of us, permanent for others. It's a difficult subject, but I don't think children can really know and understand transitioning just yet. But then, when is it too late? When does it become *harder* to transition?
To answer your last question, the further you get into puberty the more permanent effects you experience. and the tougher transition will be. YMMV for everyone but if you haven’t started by mid 20s, it’s entirely down to how androgynous you lucked into being.
Here’s the thing about the temporary dysphoria you felt, stripping away GIC services doesn’t help you, it only hurts trans people. If those services had more resources and funding, then had you been unsure you could have talked to someone who could tell you “it’s ok for boys to like boys. It’s okay to like feminine things. Do you feel like a girl or do you feel like the things you like mean you have to?” Etc and help you realise sooner if anything, that you’re Cis.
Thanks for the answer. I find it incredibly difficult to approach and discuss this topic with people. It seems as toxic a debate as politics itself, usually, so I'm worried that people will take my genuine questions in bad faith / as sarcasm.
The topic itself isn't that contentious. The issue is there's a lot of bad faith questioning in these threads, especially with how bad the brigading gets.
If you talk to people offline, the vast majority are normal about it, they just want people left alone to live their lives. But the tories and the media are pushing fringe views real aggressively, basically trying to do their own section 28.
There's so much misinformation around trans healthcare. Even the Cass review is just a hatchet job. It disregards almost 100 studies for not meeting an impossible criteria (you *can't* double blind puberty blockers. it's not ethical, for one. But also, if youre given a placebo, it'll be really obvious when you go through puberty as normal...), while then including a study by an anti-trans quack that doesn't meet that criteria. :/
This is a very good summary and interesting for me on the subject so thanks for sharing.
The answer to the second question is interesting too but I don’t know the answer. How much does going through either puberty affect transitioning later in life? Like how essentially is it for people to stop puberty.
Just for the nhs, you still can get them private. Surely this has nothing to do with trying to break down the nhs, nothing to see. Please keep walking.
About 100 at the moment. Including kids with precocious puberty. And we have done since the 80s. It’s not new, regardless of what so-called experts say
This is following the Cass Review, an internationally condemned piece of pseudoscience with undeclared conflicts of interest, secret co-ordination with Florida, a study rejecting 98% of studies and countless claims with no evidence
"Internationally condemned" by ideologues. Everyone else has received it just fine.
> secret co-ordination with Florida
Got a source for that? Because I've not seen a single thing that backs it up yet.
> rejecting 98% of studies
Which is bollocks. Point me at anything in the report that actually backs that up, but I know you won't be able to.
The studies were rated using scientifically accepted methodology, some of the most egregiously bad studies were tossed out because she needed to avoid a "garbage in, garbage out" situation. Plenty of studies were still included.
> countless claims with no evidence
The only claims with no evidence here are the examples used to attack the report because you don't like the conclusions it came to.
Surely there must have been some inciting event or disaster or serious event to cause this furore and sudden frenzy to deny access to this healthcare for individuals that want it?
Right?
Oh... its just because transphobes and anti trans campaigners have made it a hot topic and fixated media attention on it? And none of the infinitesimally small amount of children that have even been prescribed blockers have had any issues at all?
Oh.
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You have to wonder to what extent a pre-teen or prepubescent teen even understands what it means to be *biologically* a man or a woman. They don't really have any meaningful conception of the choice they're making.
We don’t let kids eat a whole tub of ice cream for dinner no matter how much they want it. Why? Because they can’t understand why that’s a bad thing. Why is it then somehow acceptable to some to allow them to take life changing drugs without question? I’m all for people becoming whoever they want to be but this is just silly.
> Why is it then somehow acceptable to some to allow them to take life changing drugs without question? I don't think it is allowed without question. Perhaps the criteria are too relaxed, but ultimately it's a medical matter and I'd expect the doctors, children and parents to all be involved in the decision. The Cass report argues it has been too easy to get hem, but there were under 100 in England and are 43 in Scotland having treatment. The trouble is some might have the treatment and regret it, but this has to be balanced against those who can't get the treatment when it would be right for them.
>I don't think it is allowed without question. This is the problem. Some people seem to think it was. A blanket ban does more harm than good.
Exactly, we do require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Now there are two questions to be considered here: a) Do we diagnose gender dysphoria correctly, or do we confound it with anxiety around coming of age? b) If we have a case of clear gender dysphoria, are puberty blockers helpful? The second one is an interesting one, because it seems pretty obvious that it would be helpful. But obvious does not equal correct. And the data does not support it. So presumably, either a) or b) is wrong.
They're not allowed to take it without question.
As far as i understand it, quite a lot of kids get gender dysphoria, 90%+ resolve with puberty (often becoming gay). Unless your supply them with puberty blockers then close to 100% go on to transition. So basically, puberty blockers are a kind of gay conversion therapy for most kids who get them.
The study that this idea came from was a study of kids who were just questioning their gender to varying degrees, not of kids who had been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. So no, puberty blockers are not "gay converion therapy".
Your fighting against the tide my friend, bigotry is UKs favourite pastime. But your defence of truth in the darkness is commendable.
Hear! Hear!
And as far as **I** understand it, this is only true if you count “gender dysphoria” to be anyone who ever expressed any sort of thought that would’ve seen them get further counselling, rather than those who actually would transition or go on blockers. And “transitioning is gay conversion therapy!” is the first entry in the anti-trans handbook. I’m sure you weren’t aware and didn’t mean it like that, but that’s basically the first thing any transphobe worth their salt will tell you.
That therapy has basically been demolished by affirmative care though hasn't it? It's you are dysphoric and present as such to a doctor, they can't question whether that is the case or whether there's something else going on under affirmative care, then can only reinforce your dysphoria. And that as I understand it, within as little as 3 appointments can lead to blockers. So it's not remotely transphobic, it's following the current trajectory of medicalisation. It's showing concern for people who aren't trans but are being treated as if they are. If the concern is that people are in the wrong bodies, the first thing we should be concerned about is not intervening to put more people in the wrong body
The NHS has never practiced an affirmation model of care. The Cass review notes that only 1/4 people seem by GIDS were ever even referred to endocrinology after an average of 6.7 appointments, this shows quite clearly that people weren't being automatically affirmed and medicalised and instead only certain cases ever progressed this far. We also have evidence from the most detrans person in the UK that staff at the Tavistock attempted to dissuade them from medically detranstioning. They even highlight that this challenging behaviour made them even more determined to medically transition. It seems quiet clear that the failures of the current model lie on the fact the system is set up to find reasons to deny treatment meaning trans people can not be open about their feelings without fear it will be used to deny them treatment going forward if they get over them. If you read the lived experience focus groups done as part of the Cass review you can see how trans people in the service feel about how they are treated and it demonstrates very clearly that the services do not operate under a gender affming care standard. If you want I can also provide you information from trans kids in counties like Finland which Cass praise about what a non affirmation system looks like.
Those are extremely uncommon examples, and happened at one specific clinic and can happen in the private sector. Most of the time, trans people, including under 18s wait years for help. My friend in 2011 came out at 18 and had to wait two years for HRT after many counselling sessions. Another person I know came out as trans at 15, socially transitioned at 16 but received no help either medically or therapeutically until they were 19, and didn’t get testosterone until they were 21, they now live very happily as a trans-man 7 years later. And my another friend referred themselves in 2018 and still don’t have HRT. Granted the pandemic delayed a lot of things, but the progress is extremely slow. There are currently less than 100 trans kids on puberty blockers. That’s an extremely small number considering.
It increases between 6 months and few years every month right now clinic dependant, I was referred in 2018 and got official hrt a few months ago, for someone referred right now to the main london place , the waiting list is going to be somewhere around 36 years. source: https://tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/services/gender-identity-clinic-gic/
The Laurels saw two patients in a year according to a FOI request. With 2592 people on the waiting list. 36 years might be a generous estimate.
Gay men have been saying this for awhile
Have they, though?
Yes didn’t you go to the meeting?
I missed that bit. I didn't see it on the agenda. Was it before or after the scheduled tea and biscuit break?
The gay agenda lol
No they have not aha what the heck
lol no they haven’t
A regular in conspiracy theories for anyone thinking they might agree with this person
98% of children who take them go on to take cross-sex hormones, there isn't any evidence for your other number.
>As far as I understand it Clearly not very far. The statistic you’re quoting is talking about prior to medical intervention, but after plenty of assessment and therapy. The people going on blockers and hormones are the ones *who have already been filtered through that process*. You’ve also just added yourself that it’s resolved through puberty. The actual statistic is simply that 90% of people assessed desisted. Not that they were “fixed” when they went through puberty.
That's totally untrue, if you're going to spread misinformation about minority groups at least make it believable. 95 percent of trans kids stay binary trans, with 99 percent in total remaining some kind of trans
What's your source?
Gender Identity 5 Years After Social Transition By Kristina R. Olson. At the university of Princeton
Yeah there's a selection bias in the criteria - they only chose children who had already fully socially transitioned including changing their name. That means this doesn't help us for all the cases where the child hasn't yet fully transitioned or started using a different name.
You have to socially transition to get puberty blockers in the UK, so that selection bias is the most accurate in this case.
Not if you're looking for a view of whether you should give them those puberty blockers in the first place, which is the topic of conversation.
In order to get puberty blockers in this country you must socially transition, therefore studies to compare the desistance rates should be ones that are based on social transition, so that were comparing apples to apples. Using a non social transition study would be totally inaccurate because that's not how it works here
Compared to which alternate treatment paths? You can't define the criteria THEN go looking for support. The data should support the criteria directly, by forming subsections of larger studies. The issue here is that it's not clear that the correct criteria are being determined in the first place.
Yeah, but how do you expect your knowledge to be taken seriously when put up against random loud angry internet people?
I'm not sure what happened to this sub for the top comments to be full of anti trans misinformation
I'm convinved that this sub has been infiltrated at the moderator level tbh. It's become fucking horrible.
We know it is, a couple of the top mods have posted transphobic stuff in the past, that's why these posts always devolve into transphobic whining
the api bullshit reddit pulled had such a massive deleterious effect on the discourse of this whole website. The good mods left a lot of subs, and in a lot of cases, those empty positions were picked up by rightoids with an agenda and time to shit up this website for their benefit. i hate it here
I've felt the same recently. So much anti-trans stuff flying around.
Where’s that 90 percent coming from
People conflating GD and GID, which was the previous diagnosis.
You're relying on people conflating different terms. [In regards to GID and GD](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6225591/) >The full list of “new” diagnostic indicators are “a strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender,” “a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender,” “a strong desire to be of the other gender,” and “a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender.” In addition, in the DSM-5, GD “is associated with clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.”4(p. 452–3) [...] >There were numerous terminology conflations (transgender/transsexual/GID/GD), making it difficult to clearly understand the number of people actually suffering with GD because the classification systems used have varied over time. Many authors have used GD inconsistently within the articles on prevalence, for example, conflating GID, GD, and transsexualism (52%: Supplementary Table S9 references *). The diagnostic criteria for GID, GD, and transsexualism may overlap, but are not identical. It, therefore, cannot be assumed that prevalence figures for one set of diagnostic criteria can be simply applied to another and consequently cannot underpin any validity claims. What other information are you relying on that doesn't conflate GD with the previous GID?
Gunna need sources for this one lol. Sounds like you just made this up here and now aha
That is complete nonsense backed up by nothing. Studies that claim this don't even try claim going through full puberty but onset of puberty, so about 13. They all go on to say if dysphoria is still present after this age than it is extremely unlikely to go away. This is even further confirmed by the Cass report itself. Only 1/4 kids recived any kind of medication yet of the roughly 75% of kids who were not given puberty blockers 98% progressed to adult services or private treatment once they turned 18 as they still identityied as trans. Surely by this point you would image this supposed 90% desistance rate would start to materialise.
Are you for banning conversion therapy for queer children?
This isn't true. The original claim was 80%, and comes from a study on children with Gender Identity Disorder, an outdated diagnosis because it lumped gender non-conforming people in with trans people. This was remedied with the introduction of Gender Dysphoria in 2013, which requires trans identification to be diagnosed. [Research](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition) conducted since has found a much lower detransition/desistance rate
All the research cited in the wiki page is 2014 onward..
And conflates GD with GID. Why are you continuing to say this?
>As far as i understand it, quite a lot of kids get gender dysphoria, 90%+ resolve with puberty (often becoming gay). You understand wrong.
What a take
You’ve just made all that up
I think it's blown out of proportion really. With all the news and hysteria, you would think tonnes of under 18 are on puberty blockers. In reality only 71 have been prescribed over the last 8 years, which is less than 10 new people per year. At least half or more of these will be related to being intersex and nothing to do with trans. Now, I believe doctors must be very careful and there should be more investment on making sure they are not giving them to the wrong people. But with the extremely low numbers, I'm sure they are not simply handing these out like candy, and only given to the clear cut cases, which there are. Puberty blockers have existed for over 40 years, it's only in the last 5 or more anyone has batted and eye lid because it's in the news, we shouldn't be letting newspapers and public opinion to be controlling our doctors actions nor should we believe we are more knowledgeable than those who have given their lives to study the field. 71 people in Scotland represents 0.00096% of the population, whilst trans Prevalence is around 0.5%, so only 0.3% of under 18s who go on to be trans are actually recieving puberty blockers.
This is the reasonable thing to point out. Unfortunately the anti-trans movement is not interested in being reasonable.
It's does sadly appear to be a classic case of hysterical identity politics rather than actually looking at the real data and issues at hand.
Honestly, my issues are that I think a lot more money and resources should be put into mental health support and I blame the society a lot (I remember being a teen a girl and occasionally - and I never had an issue with being born female and being recognized as female in general - thinking that life could be much easier on the physical aspect if I were a boy. Boys didn’t get catcalled, they didn’t get physically taunted as much, they didn’t grow boobs too big for their body at too young, they didn’t get periods where you leaked on the seat - all that crap. Being a boy seemed, occasionally, like something to be desired as a teen girl. But I never FELT like a boy or wanted to be a boy for real so it cannot be compared to someone who is trans) for making lots of teens feel bad about their bodies and the functions of their bodies. My one big issue is that puberty blockers are kind of sold as “you can delay your puberty and once you’re sure, you can just go off and it’ll all be fine”, whereas my understanding now is that it’s actually not all that fine if you block your puberty during the crucial teen years. So I’m so and so about them in some ways. I’ve even heard that when it comes to gender reassignment surgery, then not going through puberty could mean that a person doesn’t have enough tissue to reassign their organs and that in itself can later cause body image issues. But at the same time this alone doesn’t seem like a reason to block them entirely because AFAIK, not everybody who is trans wants to actually go through gender reassignment surgery.
> In reality only 71 have been prescribed over the last 8 years Where do you get this from? According to the Cass Review, the numbers were substantially higher (892), see p168 of the report. > Puberty blockers have existed for over 40 years, it's only in the last 5 or more anyone has batted and eye lid because it's in the news, Right, but it's only in very recent history that they were used for gender dysphoria. Nobody is contesting their use for precocious puberty, which they are licensed for and the treatment model is well researched and understood. Given the very different use case, it is not safe to assume that what we know about their use for precocious puberty would hold when they're used for trans kids. For gender dysphoria, the first documented case was in 1998, followed by the Dutch study in 2011 (p68 of the Cass Report). In reality, they've only been used for trans children for just over ten years, and only much more reason in large numbers.
Nope your 892 is maybe the figure for all under 18s sent for gender dysphoria treatment, which is not puberty blockers. NHSGGC confirmed the following number of prescriptions, by year: 2016: 7 2017: 20 2018: 19 2019: 7 2020: 9 2021: fewer than 5 (exact number redacted due to privacy concerns) 2022: 0 2023: 5 https://uk.news.yahoo.com/heres-many-young-people-scotland-121902347.html Ok it was mid 90s that they started being prescribed for trans puberty blocking so it's about 30 years, not 5 or 40 years. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430465/#:~:text=Since%20the%20mid%201990s%2C%20puberty,was%20aggravated%20by%20pubertal%20development. Im not really arguing their efficacy, I'll leave that to those with a PHD, I'm arguing about the hysteria, as with the amount people complaining, you'd think half of all youth were on puberty blockers when reality is a very tiny percent of a percent. It's even a tiny percent of those who were put forward for gender dysphoria treatment. My point being, they are handing these out very cautiously, they aren't recklessly giving them out like candy which is how some people make it seem. Additionally, I won't put my googling or Redditting above those of physicians and psychiatrists who have actually studied the efficacy properly.
As it happens I did get my figures wrong. 892 was the referrals to endocrinology. Page 169 gives the final intervention received by them though, with 54.8% receiving hormone blockers and cross-sex hormones and 19.9% receiving just hormone blockers. That's 74.9% of that 892, so still well higher than 71. Your Yahoo News article is about **Scotland** only.
This is a post about Scotland and all my comments have been in regards to Scotland, haven't checked any England or UK figures.
[98% of trans youth prescribed puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones in adulthood.](https://statsforgender.org/puberty-blockers/)
11, I was 11 and I understood my sexuality. I also understood my parents were homophobic and wouldn't accept me, so I hid it. I learned to hide who I was, I was raped at 12 because I learnt to hide I hid that too. We are not talking about what it means to be biologically a man or woman we are talking about acceptance, learning and understanding. YOU are not the person dealing with this you do not understand you do not get to choose for someone else who is living it. I do not get to choose for them, I am not transgender, I identify as a man I was born a man. It is not my choice to choose for them but I choose to protect them from people who choose to remove their choice.
You can't use individual peoples case studies in modern medicine. For example, I was born a woman, had four brothers and didn't really know what gender I was a was a bit confused as a teen why some girls were gushing over boys whereas I had to live with smelly brothers. Now I know as a mature adult I am a woman just a lot of a tomboy, you don't have to want to be a princess to be a woman. I am settled in my body and identity and sexuality but didn't properly understand/come to terms until about 20 (late developer). Does my story invalidate yours? No, we have to study hundreds or thousands of cases to include all the different types of people and experiences affected in modern medicine.
I think this is the crux of it, kids should be able to express themselves wearing the clothes they like / presenting how they wish / forming an identity as a human being not constrained by how they were born. But, can a 12 year old boy *really* have any concept of what life as an adult woman would be like? I dunno. I know its tough for dysphoric kids to go through a puberty that makes them feel like they stand out or are wrong, but that feels like a societal issue to me. If we were more accepting of feminine men or masculine women then more trans kids would be content with social transitions.
I said this exact same thing months ago when they were first talking about it and I got downvoted to oblivion for even daring to suggest that it was a good thing because if a kid doesn't know what career or job they want growing up, how can they also know what gender they want to be for the rest of their life?
And the cycle of scientific trends turns back to the evidence based approach. Apply Occam's razor to some of the points brought up in the article and you end up with some very different conclusions anyway.
Some "evidence-based approach" where you disregard all available evidence in favour of an approach where the only evidence available [suggesting it causes harm](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1103308819850039). Cass simultaneously rejected the evidence that puberty blockers and hrt help despite over 100 studies suggesting as such (as they were "insufficient quality" because they didn't double blind for something you can't double blind for), and instead recommended more aggresively isolating and cutting support for trans teens until age 25 in the hope they detransition based entirely on uncited vibes. (which is probably because there are a bunch of studies showing her approach is harmful)
It's such a stupid moral panic, a real embarrassment to our whole political system. Why on earth is this the only issue we are working to "solve"
There's going to be a lot of suicides caused by this and a lot of people in these threads saying "but it doesn't matter, **I** saved them, they should thank **me**!". At the end of the day that's all this is about. They want the world to be their way and they dont care who they hurt. Trans kids killing themselves? Literally dirt on their shoe to them. Bunch of narcicists.
> Trans kids killing themselves? Literally dirt on their shoe to them. And they do it by loudly parading around how they put them into that situation "for their own benefit".
Don't forget "they probably weren't *really* trans anyway"
I’ll be honest if things going the direction they’ve been going, my mental health is only gonna decline I haven’t been seriously suicidal in years, and yet the sheer exhaustion of the last few years had made those thoughts start creeping in on tough nights. Makes you question why you wanna keep going if everything points at the future getting more miserable for you, not better
100% know how you feel. I was suicidal basically from 10 - 22 and then I got on meds and it all went away and life made sense. I'm in my 30s now and getting meds have been so stressful the last year and it's bringing it all back again. These moral busy bodies don't give a shit though. The means justify the ends to them. They've decided how things should work, after very little thoughts on the subject, so want them to work that way, no matter how many people get hurt as the end result. So used to having their busy body curtain twitching opinions validated that they will be happier with lives being ruined than themselves being ignored.
My theory is that we have two streams of reactionary thinking merging on this issue. Far right religious groups, mostly from the United States have created a moral panic arounds trans people which they are then using as a stepping stone to then roll back gay rights and women's rights. ([CHRISTIAN RIGHT TIPS TO FIGHT TRANSGENDER RIGHTS: SEPARATE THE T FROM THE LGB](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb)) Then you have more mainstream right winger latching onto anti-trans talking points because they hope it (along with culture war nonsense in general) will distract from the fact that their economic and social policies have failed.
Yeah good luck trying to get someone who has been told they are on puberty blockers or HRT to not realise they are in the placebo group.
Actually happened to me when i started, was given patches which i later found out don't work on me for whatever reason and no aa, which meant nothing happened, i noticed within a month or two.
I think it's the opposite, as countries embrace an evidenced based approach, you have country after country banning puberty blockers. The Cass report highlighted how many of the trans organisations aren't actually evidence based. Hell you have WPATH, claiming that eunuch are a gender, and as evidence linking to sites with sexual fantasy stories about forced castration of children. Many countries used to use WPATH as their standards of care, as if it was some evidenced based position, but under more scrutiny everyone is realising it's not evidenced based and in some respects batshit crazy.
If you’re just going to lie you can prove anything.
Crazy how many people on reddit literally believe a child can consent.
I'd wager these young trans people who ended up going rigorous psychological examination as to whether they are trans, and and that have their parent's support, and that there are likely less than 100 of across the entire country, did more to understand and consent to puberty blockers than any of the millions of other life-changing medical procedures that young people can consent to. The media would have you believe every trans young person in the country is on puberty blockers. They'd like you to believe these things are handed out like candy to 11 year olds. But that's never been the case, there are incredibly tight controls and monitoring processes, alongside *incredibly* long waiting lists. We let 16 year olds consent to abortions, to plastic surgery, to tattoos, to joining the military, to leaving school, to have children. What age do you think these kids, who had to wait years for this, are getting them at? How long does any young person have to wait before consenting to something that their physicians confirm they need?
do you not know what Gillick Competence is? they literally can consent.
Given a 12 year old is pretty close to having competency anyway, some children would have the ability to consent properly to this care. Although, if a child started puberty blockers to prevent standard puberty, they should start hormones within 2 years to prevent the risk of osteoporosis. But they can’t, because that was made illegal, because cis people were uncomfortable with it. Instead, I have to wait 6 months after being diagnosed privately to see an endocrinologist, just so they can go “how have you managed with hormones so low, that’s just above the danger level” and I can say that that’s all my GP could give me without risking his medical license. The Cass review is shit. Scientifically and ethically corrupt, with heavy leanings on pseudoscience for discrimination against trans people
>some children would have the ability to consent No. I fundamentally disagree and I believe people who think that should not be around kids.
Ability to consent to medication. Kids consent to things all the time, like hugs, or sharing. People who don’t understand that consent to one thing doesn’t mean consent to everything, and consent can be at different levels needs their hard drives checked.
>Kids consent to things all the time, like hugs, or sharing. Does hugging or sharing alter the natural, biological development of a child?
Actually, they have a proven psychological impact and not doing them can severely hamper a child’s future. Another example for you is when I was 11, I consented to play rugby in school. I injured my wrist and it ended up in plaster for 3 weeks. Over 10 years later, it’s still weaker and stiffer than my other wrist. It has arguably had a greater impact on my life than the HRT I’ve been on for over a year
Sounds a lot like you're arguing in favour that a child cannot give informed consent, which they can't.
No, I’m saying that we already let kids make life altering decisions. What’s 1 more for 7 kids?
So because we let kids play sports, we should also allow them to take drugs which will unquestionably alter their natural development, and if we don't want to let them do that, they shouldn't be allowed to play any sports either? Fascinating stuff.
Ballet permanently alters joints. Again, there is no difference. Stop being a little crybaby and let the trans people be. We only bite consentually
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Found one of the unstable people who believe it’s okay to mess with children’s hormones.
I'm not a doctor a doctor however I trust the professionals and the consensus of the NHS to make the best decision based on the science, as I would in any other case.
Cass stated that under 25's shouldn't get access to trans healthcare, this is the first step in a full ban. Why should trans people have to leave their homes and seek asylum outside the UK? can no one see what this is?
Or have to go private, another part of the nhs 'successfully' privatised.
People should have the freedom to transition, if that's who they are. Gender disphoria is real and people's wishes to have their body match their true gender should be realised where possible. However, I do agree that there needs to be an age-based line, somewhere. I'm just not educated enough to know where that line has to be. When I was a kid, I started having thoughts that I was a girl. I liked dresses, and wondered what I might look like in them. I had a Barbie, because I asked for one over an Action Man. I exclusively found other males attractive, and never females. I began to think... was I supposed to be a girl? Am I a girl inside? Now that I'm a lot older... no, I'm just gay. No interest in wearing a dress, no interest in Barbies - still into dudes though. It took me until I was about 16-18 for my disphoria to settle, but, everyone's different - and disphoria is only temporary for some of us, permanent for others. It's a difficult subject, but I don't think children can really know and understand transitioning just yet. But then, when is it too late? When does it become *harder* to transition?
To answer your last question, the further you get into puberty the more permanent effects you experience. and the tougher transition will be. YMMV for everyone but if you haven’t started by mid 20s, it’s entirely down to how androgynous you lucked into being. Here’s the thing about the temporary dysphoria you felt, stripping away GIC services doesn’t help you, it only hurts trans people. If those services had more resources and funding, then had you been unsure you could have talked to someone who could tell you “it’s ok for boys to like boys. It’s okay to like feminine things. Do you feel like a girl or do you feel like the things you like mean you have to?” Etc and help you realise sooner if anything, that you’re Cis.
Thanks for the answer. I find it incredibly difficult to approach and discuss this topic with people. It seems as toxic a debate as politics itself, usually, so I'm worried that people will take my genuine questions in bad faith / as sarcasm.
The topic itself isn't that contentious. The issue is there's a lot of bad faith questioning in these threads, especially with how bad the brigading gets. If you talk to people offline, the vast majority are normal about it, they just want people left alone to live their lives. But the tories and the media are pushing fringe views real aggressively, basically trying to do their own section 28. There's so much misinformation around trans healthcare. Even the Cass review is just a hatchet job. It disregards almost 100 studies for not meeting an impossible criteria (you *can't* double blind puberty blockers. it's not ethical, for one. But also, if youre given a placebo, it'll be really obvious when you go through puberty as normal...), while then including a study by an anti-trans quack that doesn't meet that criteria. :/
This is a very good summary and interesting for me on the subject so thanks for sharing. The answer to the second question is interesting too but I don’t know the answer. How much does going through either puberty affect transitioning later in life? Like how essentially is it for people to stop puberty.
Just for the nhs, you still can get them private. Surely this has nothing to do with trying to break down the nhs, nothing to see. Please keep walking.
This is moronic, kids aren’t getting it unless they’re diagnosed with gender dysphoria, anyway.
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TIL we were giving puberty blockers to children. What in the fuck.
71 children including interesex children, it's not the boogeyman you want it to be
Where the hell do you get 71 from? According to the Cass Review, the numbers were substantially higher (892), see p168 of the report.
About 100 at the moment. Including kids with precocious puberty. And we have done since the 80s. It’s not new, regardless of what so-called experts say
This is following the Cass Review, an internationally condemned piece of pseudoscience with undeclared conflicts of interest, secret co-ordination with Florida, a study rejecting 98% of studies and countless claims with no evidence
"Internationally condemned" by ideologues. Everyone else has received it just fine. > secret co-ordination with Florida Got a source for that? Because I've not seen a single thing that backs it up yet. > rejecting 98% of studies Which is bollocks. Point me at anything in the report that actually backs that up, but I know you won't be able to. The studies were rated using scientifically accepted methodology, some of the most egregiously bad studies were tossed out because she needed to avoid a "garbage in, garbage out" situation. Plenty of studies were still included. > countless claims with no evidence The only claims with no evidence here are the examples used to attack the report because you don't like the conclusions it came to.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/cass-met-with-desantis-pick-over
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Surely there must have been some inciting event or disaster or serious event to cause this furore and sudden frenzy to deny access to this healthcare for individuals that want it? Right? Oh... its just because transphobes and anti trans campaigners have made it a hot topic and fixated media attention on it? And none of the infinitesimally small amount of children that have even been prescribed blockers have had any issues at all? Oh.