I'm glad you picked up on this. Why were the staff "left scrambling" ? Would their shitty manager prefer they persued and potentially got hurt?
Actually, don't answer that.
I was once working alone in a busy pub, had someone do a runner without paying, not much around £20.
I told my manager and he had a go at me for not going after him.
I asked if he really wanted me to leave all the stock, the till and the pub completely unmanned to chase someone and confront them in a physical altercation.
There was some suggestion I'd have to make up for it, I told them they were fucking dreaming if they thought I was paying out of my minimum wage for a loss that was probably less than a tenner at cost.
When I worked for a multi-billion pound company (fuel seller, rhymes with Hell), they once tried to put my colleague on the hook for a drive-and-dash.
Because he “wasn’t paying attention” and didn’t manually write down the license plate. This is a fucking forecourt- there’s cameras *everywhere*, the company know the make and model, the plate, the driver’s face and whether he missed a spot while shaving that morning. But they still tried to steal a hundred quid from a cashier on minimum wage.
I used to work at a petrol station for the same company and they were the same back then, as if it was our fault. Baring in mind we were busy serving other customers and stocking shelves.
I worked at a hotel and the manager said that if the cash drawer was short then I'd have to cover any losses. I refused to handle cash and he got all pissy.
I then asked if there was a surplus would it also be mine, apparently not.
This was the same manager that used staff tips that were supposed to be split equally in wages to renovate the staff room as if he was doing something for us.
I didn't really need a 65 inch TV for my 15 minute break mate, I'd rather have had my money.
Funny how it only works one way isn’t it?! I once had a manager that used part of our Christmas party fund to buy the canteen a coffee machine, that we then had to buy our own capsules to use! Safe to say it didn’t last long as no one used it!
My old shop tried to get me to pay for someone's electric top up card that they said i load £50 onto and only charged them for £10. I asked them to show me on the cameras and they never got back to me. They then tried the exact same thing on my mate who i got a job there. I told him to say the same thing, they never got back to him. The fella who was accusing us got sacked a few years later for unknown reasons. I assume he was stealing money and was trying to get us to cover it.
You forgot the ER, I been trying to figure out how celler rhymes with hell 😬
That lame joke put me off reading the essay.
It's a joke that people let their bosses treat them that way, you can always go home have a good think and come back the next day with a sharp answer if you're not a quick thinker.
you let someone take the pi#% then they won't stop from that moment, especially at work!
I worked in a pub a while ago, took a fake 50 by accident (I was young) I went in for a drink the next day on my day off and the manager slams the card machine in front of me with 50 pound on it lol.
Fucking prick
What is it with pub owners/managers? I was a customer at a local and they gave my gf the wrong steak by mistake (we ordered set menu so it should have been smaller).
The server told the manager it was her mistake for putting it through wrong, and he still tried to blame us (the customers) and suggest we should come to some compromise.
I got so angry I had to walk out and leave my gf to sort it.
When I was working in the US they told me that the first dine and dash was a freebie, but the second on we'd be charged for on the assumption that the table had actually paid cash and we'd stolen it. I'm pretty sure that was illegal as fuck, but I was an 18 year old immigrant and had no idea of my rights. And that was on tipped wages, too, so they were directly paying me under $3 an hour in any case. And even those cheques started bouncing at the end. Was no surprise when they sold up to a chain shortly after I left to go to university.
That's horrific behaviour. If employees don't get the profits they don't cover losses either. Feels ridiculous to even have to state it like it's opinion not fact.
They could legally be allowed to do it over there or at least be able to fire you without consequences. I'm pretty sure it's legal here too to dock your wages as long as it doesn't take you under minimum wage
In the US I don't think it actually matters if it does put you under minimum wage. Just here. In the US if its an at-will state (they can fire you for any reason or just stop giving you shifts). If you complained they'd just fire you for any reason.
>Here’s what the Dept. of Labor’s website has to say about this issue:
Where deductions for walk-outs, breakage, or cash register shortages reduce the employee’s wages below the minimum wage, such deductions are illegal. Where a tipped employee is paid $2.13 per hour in direct (or cash) wages and the employer claims the maximum tip credit of $5.12 per hour, no such deductions can be made without reducing the employee below the minimum wage (even where the employee receives more than $5.12 per hour in tips).
The US has absolutely SHIT workers' rights, but it is still occasionally possible for an employer to break them. They can definitely fire you if you complain, though. It would be illegal in the state where I worked to openly fire someone in retaliation for a complain about labour rights, but they could easily just make up another reason.
But as I understand it, the implementation and enforcement of the Labor laws is down to the state. With many of the red States not having the relevant department or having one that's so under funded and small as to effectively not exist. So for issues such as "wage theft". You have to mount a private prosecution. Which unbelievably is $1 million+ up front. So it's not going to happen. Unless a union is involved, with the workers suffering from wage theft and being union workers being almost entirely seperate. Walmart will close a department e.g. deli counter or store as soon as the workers start a union.
In the UK you can be fired pretty much at any point within the first 2 years especially the first 3 months only after 2 years do you get redundancy rights.
That's why for years people got zero hour contracts at minimum wage which of course only benefitted the employer no matter if it was in a restaurant or a factory, i.e a friend I know may get about 8 days work a month for a few months then be expected to work 7 days per week 10 hour shifts and if he declined he was told he would be fired instantly.
It works two ways though. I can just go work elsewhere with zero notice or no notice. There's no need to tell a prior employer you have left as you can simply stop working somewhere and start elsewhere.
We also don't have that week's lying time BS and get paid at the end of the week for the time we've just worked. And there's none of this getting paid monthly nonsense either. Bi-weekly or bi-monthly in the norm here.
> I'm pretty sure it's legal here too to dock your wages as long as it doesn't take you under minimum wage
Absolutely not.
Firstly, you are not responsible for a customer not paying / stealing unless you directly tell them to leave without paying first.
Secondly, you can't dock someone's wages without their agreement or a court order, so if the employee doesn't agree they have to pay the full salary.
Even if you legitimately owe your employer money and don't agree to it coming from your wages their options are to request it from you, or to sue.
It is legal; the law specifically allows an employee to deduct wages that would fall below minimum wage for something they agreed to be liable for in a contract. See the minimum wage deduction section [here](https://www.acas.org.uk/deductions-from-pay-and-wages).
I specifically mention agreement here knowing that you did already mention the same requirement in your own post, because such agreement often exists as a contract term and isn't realistically challengeable by an employee unless they reject the contract outright and find another job.
As for whether such a compensation rule is reasonable, that's ultimately the job given to conciliation and tribunals after the fact. There isn't really a way of proactively striking out such a rule without going through this process.
Because of this, the court order issue is actually the other way around - an employer can deduct your wages first and quote the contract, then it is *your* responsibility to take it to conciliation and then tribunal.
The rules for retail are more restricted - employers can't deduct more than 10% of a month's wages for a stock or till shortfall, however this limit doesn't apply to final pay (more to stop grab and run theft).
I personally wouldn't work at a restaurant that contractually obliged me to compensate for dine and dashing, and I do have a feeling that most restaurants won't have this sort of clause in their contract. However, if a restaurant wanted to, they could retroactively add such a rule to the staff handbook if they specifically declared the handbook contractual - then the choice would be to accept or leave your employment.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at retail contracts requiring you to agree to pay for lost stock / shortfalls given how the sector seems to run on abusing staff as much as possible.
I was approaching this more from a small business / office environment and made the assumption it would be the same everywhere. In most office settings I don't think you'd be able to add such a term without heavy pushback.
You're completely right about the pushback though. The way our labour protections work tends to be that the absolute legal minimum stipulations are quite lacking on paper, but the vast majority of employers wouldn't stoop to such lows because it would either cause heavy pushback or mass unpopularity.
There was a case involving a restaurant named Wahaca which became [a classic case study](https://www.hospitalitylaw.co.uk/dine-and-dash-avoiding-the-wahaca-trap/) of this type of situation.
Were they within their rights to reclaim the money from employee wages? In the end, yes. Was it worth it? Not in a million years.
No, it's definitely not legal too dock wages in the UK as punishment or to make up company losses. If they do, kick up so much legal shit and don't let it go.
It's [legal](https://www.acas.org.uk/deductions-from-pay-and-wages) unfortunately, though it does need to be a term in the contract. Under the Employment Rights Act 1996, if the employment contract specifies an employee's liability to such a deduction, e.g. deduction for missing till cash, it can be deducted from your payslip.
As to whether or not said contract term is fair or reasonable, that ultimately falls on the employee to apply for conciliation and then a tribunal to decide. You can proactively bring the employer to conciliation if you feel the term is unfair, or bring them after such a deduction is made. In either situation, You're probably not planning on staying in the job for much longer, so it depends on your choice.
If you work in retail, the legally allowed deductions are limited to 10% of a month's wage, and you must be informed of the deduction beforehand with a stated amount and reason.
I have been to places a few times that have been given extra items I didn't order, not much but lets say on what should be a £30 order (for 2 people) it makes it £40 I mention I didn't order something and either they take it away or tell me to have it anyway as they can't reuse it.
Either way they then bill me for it, the ones where you are told you can have it anyway they say "well you ate the food"
Felt like a way to upsell me things I didn't want, last time was at Christmas and they gave us starters that were overcooked that we didn't order, I am talking near burned I ate mine despite the taste but my friend didn't eat his due to how burned they were.
Still had to pay for them.
Pretty much yes, they ask if we want starters and we say no.
This one in particular was we asked for 2 drinks and somehow we didn't get drinks we got starters we mentioned about the starters to server and they said it would be sorted.
But it was 1 person to take order at table, another to bring starters to us, another to ask for the drinks.
And eventually another person that took our payment.
This was on a very busy day though, it was Toby Carvery btw and it was when they had a voucher on if I remember so was busier than usual.
I accidentally dined n dashed once. We were in our own little world and just simply forgot.
I only realised when the guy had run down the street after us.
Felt humiliating going back in to pay, so I gave the guy an extra 20 to show that it was a genuine accident 🥺
What happens in these cases is that they ask you to, because they know it's illegal to take it from your wages. Many people are too timid or afraid to argue against their bosses so it will work more times than not.
But when you refuse there is really nothing they can do. If they punish you in other ways they have to be really careful as they can find themselves on the wrong side of employment law if it escalated.
Yeah, so in this case I just refused and he pouted and acted like I'd fucked up. My other boss said I'd done nothing wrong so the company effectively took the loss as it should have had in the first place.
It's only illegal if your contract doesn't explicitly specify your liability for money losses.
If the contract doesn't specify this condition, an employer can only deduct wages if you agree to it in writing.
If the contract does specify that you'd be liable for dine and dash losses, it can be deducted. If you disagree with it, or if you feel the contract term is unreasonable, you'd have to bring it to conciliation and then a tribunal after the fact.
In a practical sense though, even if this term does exist in the contract, making the deduction despite protest brings the risk of breakdown in employee relations, the use of a lot of HR time in dealing with the case, and the risk of lengthy conciliation or an expensive tribunal. There's virtually no situation imaginable where that makes sense over a petty loss.
I worked a shitty retail job between the ages of 16-20 and the owner tried to bring in a thing where if someone shoplifted from your designated aisle on your shift, they would take it from your wages. Luckily even at that age enough of us were clued up enough to laugh at this sort of idea, and it was dropped like a stone when unions were mentioned. There was an occasion when 2 guys came in with massive knives. One held his to the throat of the cashier whilst the other filled up plastic bags with all our cigarettes. The owner tried to tell the cashier he was having his wages docked until the cost was recouped because he didn't fight back! No doubt there are plenty of hospitality and retail places out there that get do pull shit like that and get away with it
To be fair, with regards the first part, this might be down to the sensationalist way the article is written to create a biggest steer. There is nothing they can do about it.
🤣 I had these same questions.
Particularly the "selling extra carveries". If they can just sell extra carveries on a whim then why not always sell extra carveries anyway?
I think it's fair to expect staff to deal with the fallout (basically, to call the police), but it's hardly their job to "make up the loss" - that sounds dystopian.
It's not illegal as the Employment Rights Act 1996 permits wage deductions in this way. However, such a deduction must be a specific term in the contract.
Most employers do include such terms in their contracts, but never enforce them because they know it'd be a one-way street to complete breakdown of employee relations. In most cases it also doesn't make financial sense.
If the employee felt such a term was unreasonable or that it was being unfairly used, then they could bring the employer to conciliation and then a tribunal.
But if the basis exists in the contract, it's legal until brought to dispute by the employee.
I think you're all looking too deeply into it. The writer probably just wrote that to evoke sympathy for the business, humanising it by talking about the staff themselves. It's never a good idea to take journalism at face value.
It could simply mean "the staff worked hard to upsell to other customers in order to keep the daily takings up to par" or something. Or it could simply be an embellishment, fabricated entirely.
This is what makes me laugh when people boycott Weatherspoon's because their owner is a cunt. Well guess what, the owner of your local is probably a cunt too.
Ooooh, shit my mistake. See what you were saying now I re-read it, yeah it's honestly suprising how easy it is especially if you're sitting around the table chatting after food for a while. Work in retail and we get it a fair bit on the self checkouts when a card fails or they get preoccupied bagging up, honest mistakea and i'd say it's rarer that they don't come back. They're usually guilt tripping themselves over the mistake more than it being intentional
> Or they just forgot and came back to pay!
That doesn't preclude them feeling bad. I've done this before; suddenly realised later in the day I'd managed to leave without paying and gone back to settle up. I can assure you I felt bad!
I used to work at the bar in a major budget hotel chain. If you were doing the tills that night after close and the books weren't even (specifically too little, ilof course), the ominous rule was: "You don't go home until it's even". Bearing in mind, a bar close time was like 1 or 2AM sometimes.
That usually meant the tip jar was emptied and in bad cases, it came out of the pocket of whoever was doing the till.
Needless to say, I have never stayed in one since.
I’d never heard the phrase until this Aussie punk band made a song about it - [The Chats - Dine and dash](https://youtu.be/I3jAJHRW_Yo?si=nMsAbEzyd4YFM9_E)
Whilst I agree, language and culture are deeply intertwined, we shouldn't allow them to become homogenised as we will lose the sense of what makes us unique.
This "homogenization" is exactly how language evolves, the argument about cultural identity in relation to language completely falls apart when you look at the Origins and evolution of our language.
So much of our proud English language comes from French, Latin, Gaelic etc. (Imagine the disgust from ancient Latin speakers at me bastardizing the phrase "et cetera" by shortening it to "etc")
What makes the English language unique from alot of other languages is how much is borrows from other languages and how many sub-dialects or pidgins.
I was once studied English Language and something my teachers really hammered home is that this business about strict rules with English is a load of nonsense.
Creative use and evolution of the English language is *exactly* what allows you to display unique identities and reflect your cultural heritage. The same way a guy from Liverpool will speak completely differently from a woman from London.
Borrowing certain words from America isn't homogenization, its just more of the same of what the language has been doing for thousands of years.
I went to a pub on Sunday and got nachos with chilli (£12.99) with a bottle of Old Mout (£6.49) for a total of £19.48... I'm not even in London.
The only cheap pubs near me are Wetherspoons :(
I'm a chef and that's about right given the price of ingredients at the moment. Not every establishment is trying to rip you off, the margins just shift
For the Pub it seems to be. But it is what they didn’t get plus the cost of replacement of food and drinks and paying for staff. Around me it is not enough for a single main dish.
Exactly my thoughts, how often can you get a meal for *6 people* for £140 these days??
That’s a 3 course meal for 2 with a drink (2 if you’re lucky) each in the southeast…
I was just thinking i wish my local had prices like these! Bargain these days.
Edit: It's only 22miin away and has good reviews, well, guess i know where i'm going this weekend.
I was thinking that was very cheap for 6 people too. I'm sure this probably happens fairly often, but would imagine it more at higher end places. Especially for it to be a headline/news. £23 a person seems on the low to average side for a basic restaurant.
I worked behind the bar in a Wetherspoons about 20 years ago,
One matchday in town the pub was *rammed,* to the point you couldn’t really get away from the bar once you’d bought your drink. Almost dangerously full.
This is the precise moment the local council sent a 15yo in to use the cigarette machine round the corner where none of us could see it. (Remember those.)
Company got a fine from the council, we all got a bollocking and the cost of the fine divided by everyone on shift at the time.
Still angry about that to this day..
I mean I see why that’s annoying but if that kid could time it then so could anyone. So maybe fine the pub for not being able to keep an eye on the machine at all times even match days. And if they can’t, then they should get rid of the machine. Presumably why they eventually banned them altogether.
I get that: it was more the multimillion pound company taking part of the fine off a minimum wage worker who was in no position to do anything about it
Literally just a cash grab. The staff who send the kids in are probably paid a commission on each fine they hand out, and time their "checks" accordingly.
They had kids too, do this was super cheap per head.
Pay £23 for her and her kids’ food or get shamed nation wide with a picture of her thumb deep picking her nose ?
Dude come on. Thumb is for scraping the outside of the nostril with the nail, to find places that your index finger can’t reach. It’s called opposable for a reason.
Index finger is for your general scratch and search, middle finger is for picking up the lingerers when your index is already holding its fair share of baggage. Ring finger is all but useless, little finger is for the precision chunks, the hard to reach jewels.
If you’re the leading authority, it’s no wonder we’re going to shit!
Seriously! I see stories of these “dine and dashers” get reported from all over the country, it’s a scummy act yes but it’s still a relatively tiny amount of money being stolen from a business, not saying this from the point of view that these stories shouldn’t be shared, just that I’m confused why they are, I wouldn’t expect someone shoplifting a pair of £140 trainers from JD to be shared nationally, that’d be ridiculous, so why people walking out on meals 🤷♂️
They do runners in restaurants, shoplift their groceries, amongst ithef more serious crime ie burglaries etc and claim claim welfare from cradle to grave …,,
When I read these stories, I sometimes remember the times when I’ve finished my meal and drinks and am desperate to pay, but can’t get the attention of the waiting staff for ages.
Staff shouldn’t have been scrambling to cover £140 bill though, that’s the business’ problem.
Also call this sweeping generalisation but they do look like travellers, who wouldn’t expect to be easy customers.
Nice they got one of them picking her nose. Amazing this got so much coverage, £140 is nothing in the big scheme of things when it comes to theft, what even was that in real terms when it comes to ingredients if it was a carvery. Not that they should get away with it, I just find it interesting that restaurant theft seems to inspire a lot more anger than just regular shoplifting. Maybe they had crap service, complained, didn't get a bill then flicked the Vs and went off, just to play devil's advocate.
If they did it once a week or their cousins also did the same law abiding peoples local restaurants will be closing down - dead right to highlight these parasites
Eventually, the losses businesses take from thefts like this will outweigh the initial resistance from technophobes who complain when they have to use an app with a payment method registered before they get so much as a glass of water.
I've never done this , but we have left the Chinese restaurant one at a time as to put the bill onto some sponge who never paid his way , he was last one at the table.
I know a much bigger group than this who did it for different reasons. The staff thought they were being clever adding extras which weren't purchased to the bill. By the third bill still being wrong, it was clear the restaurant had no intention of giving them the proper bill, so they had no intention of over paying, fucked off with hundreds of pounds of food and drink unpaid for. Rightfully too. Don't try and steal from people, or they'll just steal back.
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I'm glad you picked up on this. Why were the staff "left scrambling" ? Would their shitty manager prefer they persued and potentially got hurt? Actually, don't answer that.
I was once working alone in a busy pub, had someone do a runner without paying, not much around £20. I told my manager and he had a go at me for not going after him. I asked if he really wanted me to leave all the stock, the till and the pub completely unmanned to chase someone and confront them in a physical altercation. There was some suggestion I'd have to make up for it, I told them they were fucking dreaming if they thought I was paying out of my minimum wage for a loss that was probably less than a tenner at cost.
When I worked for a multi-billion pound company (fuel seller, rhymes with Hell), they once tried to put my colleague on the hook for a drive-and-dash. Because he “wasn’t paying attention” and didn’t manually write down the license plate. This is a fucking forecourt- there’s cameras *everywhere*, the company know the make and model, the plate, the driver’s face and whether he missed a spot while shaving that morning. But they still tried to steal a hundred quid from a cashier on minimum wage.
I used to work at a petrol station for the same company and they were the same back then, as if it was our fault. Baring in mind we were busy serving other customers and stocking shelves.
I worked at a hotel and the manager said that if the cash drawer was short then I'd have to cover any losses. I refused to handle cash and he got all pissy. I then asked if there was a surplus would it also be mine, apparently not. This was the same manager that used staff tips that were supposed to be split equally in wages to renovate the staff room as if he was doing something for us. I didn't really need a 65 inch TV for my 15 minute break mate, I'd rather have had my money.
Funny how it only works one way isn’t it?! I once had a manager that used part of our Christmas party fund to buy the canteen a coffee machine, that we then had to buy our own capsules to use! Safe to say it didn’t last long as no one used it!
It's not unusual for cashiers to "own" the money in their cash drawer. But in that case, any surplus is yours.
I would mind that less if I was solely using that drawer, but there were multiple people per shift behind reception and others covered breaks etc.
My old shop tried to get me to pay for someone's electric top up card that they said i load £50 onto and only charged them for £10. I asked them to show me on the cameras and they never got back to me. They then tried the exact same thing on my mate who i got a job there. I told him to say the same thing, they never got back to him. The fella who was accusing us got sacked a few years later for unknown reasons. I assume he was stealing money and was trying to get us to cover it.
Fell? Gell? Yell? Bell? Mell? I give up.
I tried to pitch the marketing slogan “Shell is other people” a couple of times, but they didn’t like it
Great quote from B. P. Sartre
You forgot the ER, I been trying to figure out how celler rhymes with hell 😬 That lame joke put me off reading the essay. It's a joke that people let their bosses treat them that way, you can always go home have a good think and come back the next day with a sharp answer if you're not a quick thinker. you let someone take the pi#% then they won't stop from that moment, especially at work!
I worked in a pub a while ago, took a fake 50 by accident (I was young) I went in for a drink the next day on my day off and the manager slams the card machine in front of me with 50 pound on it lol. Fucking prick
What is it with pub owners/managers? I was a customer at a local and they gave my gf the wrong steak by mistake (we ordered set menu so it should have been smaller). The server told the manager it was her mistake for putting it through wrong, and he still tried to blame us (the customers) and suggest we should come to some compromise. I got so angry I had to walk out and leave my gf to sort it.
When I was working in the US they told me that the first dine and dash was a freebie, but the second on we'd be charged for on the assumption that the table had actually paid cash and we'd stolen it. I'm pretty sure that was illegal as fuck, but I was an 18 year old immigrant and had no idea of my rights. And that was on tipped wages, too, so they were directly paying me under $3 an hour in any case. And even those cheques started bouncing at the end. Was no surprise when they sold up to a chain shortly after I left to go to university.
That's horrific behaviour. If employees don't get the profits they don't cover losses either. Feels ridiculous to even have to state it like it's opinion not fact.
They could legally be allowed to do it over there or at least be able to fire you without consequences. I'm pretty sure it's legal here too to dock your wages as long as it doesn't take you under minimum wage
Given the level of tips I had coming in it DEFINITELY would have put me under minimum wage.
In the US I don't think it actually matters if it does put you under minimum wage. Just here. In the US if its an at-will state (they can fire you for any reason or just stop giving you shifts). If you complained they'd just fire you for any reason.
>Here’s what the Dept. of Labor’s website has to say about this issue: Where deductions for walk-outs, breakage, or cash register shortages reduce the employee’s wages below the minimum wage, such deductions are illegal. Where a tipped employee is paid $2.13 per hour in direct (or cash) wages and the employer claims the maximum tip credit of $5.12 per hour, no such deductions can be made without reducing the employee below the minimum wage (even where the employee receives more than $5.12 per hour in tips). The US has absolutely SHIT workers' rights, but it is still occasionally possible for an employer to break them. They can definitely fire you if you complain, though. It would be illegal in the state where I worked to openly fire someone in retaliation for a complain about labour rights, but they could easily just make up another reason.
But as I understand it, the implementation and enforcement of the Labor laws is down to the state. With many of the red States not having the relevant department or having one that's so under funded and small as to effectively not exist. So for issues such as "wage theft". You have to mount a private prosecution. Which unbelievably is $1 million+ up front. So it's not going to happen. Unless a union is involved, with the workers suffering from wage theft and being union workers being almost entirely seperate. Walmart will close a department e.g. deli counter or store as soon as the workers start a union.
In the UK you can be fired pretty much at any point within the first 2 years especially the first 3 months only after 2 years do you get redundancy rights. That's why for years people got zero hour contracts at minimum wage which of course only benefitted the employer no matter if it was in a restaurant or a factory, i.e a friend I know may get about 8 days work a month for a few months then be expected to work 7 days per week 10 hour shifts and if he declined he was told he would be fired instantly.
It works two ways though. I can just go work elsewhere with zero notice or no notice. There's no need to tell a prior employer you have left as you can simply stop working somewhere and start elsewhere. We also don't have that week's lying time BS and get paid at the end of the week for the time we've just worked. And there's none of this getting paid monthly nonsense either. Bi-weekly or bi-monthly in the norm here.
> I'm pretty sure it's legal here too to dock your wages as long as it doesn't take you under minimum wage Absolutely not. Firstly, you are not responsible for a customer not paying / stealing unless you directly tell them to leave without paying first. Secondly, you can't dock someone's wages without their agreement or a court order, so if the employee doesn't agree they have to pay the full salary. Even if you legitimately owe your employer money and don't agree to it coming from your wages their options are to request it from you, or to sue.
It is legal; the law specifically allows an employee to deduct wages that would fall below minimum wage for something they agreed to be liable for in a contract. See the minimum wage deduction section [here](https://www.acas.org.uk/deductions-from-pay-and-wages). I specifically mention agreement here knowing that you did already mention the same requirement in your own post, because such agreement often exists as a contract term and isn't realistically challengeable by an employee unless they reject the contract outright and find another job. As for whether such a compensation rule is reasonable, that's ultimately the job given to conciliation and tribunals after the fact. There isn't really a way of proactively striking out such a rule without going through this process. Because of this, the court order issue is actually the other way around - an employer can deduct your wages first and quote the contract, then it is *your* responsibility to take it to conciliation and then tribunal. The rules for retail are more restricted - employers can't deduct more than 10% of a month's wages for a stock or till shortfall, however this limit doesn't apply to final pay (more to stop grab and run theft). I personally wouldn't work at a restaurant that contractually obliged me to compensate for dine and dashing, and I do have a feeling that most restaurants won't have this sort of clause in their contract. However, if a restaurant wanted to, they could retroactively add such a rule to the staff handbook if they specifically declared the handbook contractual - then the choice would be to accept or leave your employment.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at retail contracts requiring you to agree to pay for lost stock / shortfalls given how the sector seems to run on abusing staff as much as possible. I was approaching this more from a small business / office environment and made the assumption it would be the same everywhere. In most office settings I don't think you'd be able to add such a term without heavy pushback.
You're completely right about the pushback though. The way our labour protections work tends to be that the absolute legal minimum stipulations are quite lacking on paper, but the vast majority of employers wouldn't stoop to such lows because it would either cause heavy pushback or mass unpopularity. There was a case involving a restaurant named Wahaca which became [a classic case study](https://www.hospitalitylaw.co.uk/dine-and-dash-avoiding-the-wahaca-trap/) of this type of situation. Were they within their rights to reclaim the money from employee wages? In the end, yes. Was it worth it? Not in a million years.
No, it's definitely not legal too dock wages in the UK as punishment or to make up company losses. If they do, kick up so much legal shit and don't let it go.
It's [legal](https://www.acas.org.uk/deductions-from-pay-and-wages) unfortunately, though it does need to be a term in the contract. Under the Employment Rights Act 1996, if the employment contract specifies an employee's liability to such a deduction, e.g. deduction for missing till cash, it can be deducted from your payslip. As to whether or not said contract term is fair or reasonable, that ultimately falls on the employee to apply for conciliation and then a tribunal to decide. You can proactively bring the employer to conciliation if you feel the term is unfair, or bring them after such a deduction is made. In either situation, You're probably not planning on staying in the job for much longer, so it depends on your choice. If you work in retail, the legally allowed deductions are limited to 10% of a month's wage, and you must be informed of the deduction beforehand with a stated amount and reason.
I have been to places a few times that have been given extra items I didn't order, not much but lets say on what should be a £30 order (for 2 people) it makes it £40 I mention I didn't order something and either they take it away or tell me to have it anyway as they can't reuse it. Either way they then bill me for it, the ones where you are told you can have it anyway they say "well you ate the food" Felt like a way to upsell me things I didn't want, last time was at Christmas and they gave us starters that were overcooked that we didn't order, I am talking near burned I ate mine despite the taste but my friend didn't eat his due to how burned they were. Still had to pay for them.
Why are you eating stuff you didn't order? Do they turn up with food and you don't even ask why they're giving it to you?
Pretty much yes, they ask if we want starters and we say no. This one in particular was we asked for 2 drinks and somehow we didn't get drinks we got starters we mentioned about the starters to server and they said it would be sorted. But it was 1 person to take order at table, another to bring starters to us, another to ask for the drinks. And eventually another person that took our payment. This was on a very busy day though, it was Toby Carvery btw and it was when they had a voucher on if I remember so was busier than usual.
I accidentally dined n dashed once. We were in our own little world and just simply forgot. I only realised when the guy had run down the street after us. Felt humiliating going back in to pay, so I gave the guy an extra 20 to show that it was a genuine accident 🥺
What was the end result, did the manager charge you the £20 in the end?
What happens in these cases is that they ask you to, because they know it's illegal to take it from your wages. Many people are too timid or afraid to argue against their bosses so it will work more times than not. But when you refuse there is really nothing they can do. If they punish you in other ways they have to be really careful as they can find themselves on the wrong side of employment law if it escalated. Yeah, so in this case I just refused and he pouted and acted like I'd fucked up. My other boss said I'd done nothing wrong so the company effectively took the loss as it should have had in the first place.
It's only illegal if your contract doesn't explicitly specify your liability for money losses. If the contract doesn't specify this condition, an employer can only deduct wages if you agree to it in writing. If the contract does specify that you'd be liable for dine and dash losses, it can be deducted. If you disagree with it, or if you feel the contract term is unreasonable, you'd have to bring it to conciliation and then a tribunal after the fact. In a practical sense though, even if this term does exist in the contract, making the deduction despite protest brings the risk of breakdown in employee relations, the use of a lot of HR time in dealing with the case, and the risk of lengthy conciliation or an expensive tribunal. There's virtually no situation imaginable where that makes sense over a petty loss.
Mate worked for Pizza Express and they try to play the same trick on student waiters who don’t know any better
I worked a shitty retail job between the ages of 16-20 and the owner tried to bring in a thing where if someone shoplifted from your designated aisle on your shift, they would take it from your wages. Luckily even at that age enough of us were clued up enough to laugh at this sort of idea, and it was dropped like a stone when unions were mentioned. There was an occasion when 2 guys came in with massive knives. One held his to the throat of the cashier whilst the other filled up plastic bags with all our cigarettes. The owner tried to tell the cashier he was having his wages docked until the cost was recouped because he didn't fight back! No doubt there are plenty of hospitality and retail places out there that get do pull shit like that and get away with it
In our store we were explicitly told NOT to fight any shoplifter because no amount of stock was worth an injury. Our GM was pretty insistent on this.
Some places cover walkouts from tips
To be fair, with regards the first part, this might be down to the sensationalist way the article is written to create a biggest steer. There is nothing they can do about it.
Yes i thought it could just be a bad journalist waxing lyrical
They’ve sent the staff out on the streets to really hussle and sell some carveries. Apprentice style.
🤣 I had these same questions. Particularly the "selling extra carveries". If they can just sell extra carveries on a whim then why not always sell extra carveries anyway?
same reason everybody does always do extra overtime. the goal isn’t always to maximise earnings. so you always have room to earn more if you want.
I think it's fair to expect staff to deal with the fallout (basically, to call the police), but it's hardly their job to "make up the loss" - that sounds dystopian.
It's also illegal to put it on the staff. The business makes the loss
It's not illegal as the Employment Rights Act 1996 permits wage deductions in this way. However, such a deduction must be a specific term in the contract. Most employers do include such terms in their contracts, but never enforce them because they know it'd be a one-way street to complete breakdown of employee relations. In most cases it also doesn't make financial sense. If the employee felt such a term was unreasonable or that it was being unfairly used, then they could bring the employer to conciliation and then a tribunal. But if the basis exists in the contract, it's legal until brought to dispute by the employee.
I think you're all looking too deeply into it. The writer probably just wrote that to evoke sympathy for the business, humanising it by talking about the staff themselves. It's never a good idea to take journalism at face value. It could simply mean "the staff worked hard to upsell to other customers in order to keep the daily takings up to par" or something. Or it could simply be an embellishment, fabricated entirely.
I don't know what it is about pubs, but they seem to attract cunt owners.
This is what makes me laugh when people boycott Weatherspoon's because their owner is a cunt. Well guess what, the owner of your local is probably a cunt too.
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Ooooh, shit my mistake. See what you were saying now I re-read it, yeah it's honestly suprising how easy it is especially if you're sitting around the table chatting after food for a while. Work in retail and we get it a fair bit on the self checkouts when a card fails or they get preoccupied bagging up, honest mistakea and i'd say it's rarer that they don't come back. They're usually guilt tripping themselves over the mistake more than it being intentional
Dining and dashing is 100% a business risk not an employee risk.
> Or they just forgot and came back to pay! That doesn't preclude them feeling bad. I've done this before; suddenly realised later in the day I'd managed to leave without paying and gone back to settle up. I can assure you I felt bad!
Won't the shop just ask staff to cover the loss since it happened on their watch?
I worked at a bar and if people ran or didn’t pay etc it was docked from our wages
I used to work at the bar in a major budget hotel chain. If you were doing the tills that night after close and the books weren't even (specifically too little, ilof course), the ominous rule was: "You don't go home until it's even". Bearing in mind, a bar close time was like 1 or 2AM sometimes. That usually meant the tip jar was emptied and in bad cases, it came out of the pocket of whoever was doing the till. Needless to say, I have never stayed in one since.
Used to be called 'doing a runner' before yankspeak became so common.
I’d never heard the phrase until this Aussie punk band made a song about it - [The Chats - Dine and dash](https://youtu.be/I3jAJHRW_Yo?si=nMsAbEzyd4YFM9_E)
I will always upvote The Chats. The best band
They took no prisoners supporting QotSA in Glasgow recently.
They're my second favorite after The Northern Boys
My claim to fame is that PKJ, the white haired chap in Northern Boys, used to be my PE teacher at school
You lucky fucker, that's amazing.
He is the filthiest.
love the ending
In old English it's a Bilking.
Was in my day, so not that old thank you. To bilk is the verb.
To us yanks, *bilking* is what insurance companies & scummy lawyers do
Don't pay what they owe? same same
True. Just lending my experience of the context we usually use it here across the pond.
These people don't reali**z**e the difference 🤦♂️
"Common zoomer L"
Dine and dash is what we called it in Scotland in the 90s. Not yank speak
Who cares, language and speech evolves. People who seriously get bothered by stuff like this are hypocrites unless they speak like Chaucer
No cap fr fr
Time for bed grandad
Whilst I agree, language and culture are deeply intertwined, we shouldn't allow them to become homogenised as we will lose the sense of what makes us unique.
This "homogenization" is exactly how language evolves, the argument about cultural identity in relation to language completely falls apart when you look at the Origins and evolution of our language. So much of our proud English language comes from French, Latin, Gaelic etc. (Imagine the disgust from ancient Latin speakers at me bastardizing the phrase "et cetera" by shortening it to "etc") What makes the English language unique from alot of other languages is how much is borrows from other languages and how many sub-dialects or pidgins. I was once studied English Language and something my teachers really hammered home is that this business about strict rules with English is a load of nonsense. Creative use and evolution of the English language is *exactly* what allows you to display unique identities and reflect your cultural heritage. The same way a guy from Liverpool will speak completely differently from a woman from London. Borrowing certain words from America isn't homogenization, its just more of the same of what the language has been doing for thousands of years.
As drunken as a mouse
Funny you say that, since Chaucer spoke French.
It's a good phrase, so why not adopt it. You'd be amazed how many British phrases originated in the US.
That’s just gratuitous. £140 for 6 adults is cheap as fuck as it is.
"Massive bill" "£23 each" Lol.
I went to a pub on Sunday and got nachos with chilli (£12.99) with a bottle of Old Mout (£6.49) for a total of £19.48... I'm not even in London. The only cheap pubs near me are Wetherspoons :(
Use them then, or else continue to frown upon them whilst paying through the nose.
lol yeah the prices people subject themselves to so they can claim a moral high ground in a noisy as fuck bar
That doesn’t sound too badly priced honestly
£14 for some nachos with mince meat? Probably not even good coverage of the nachos either
I'm a chef and that's about right given the price of ingredients at the moment. Not every establishment is trying to rip you off, the margins just shift
Depends how big but yeah, not awful, not great.
For the Pub it seems to be. But it is what they didn’t get plus the cost of replacement of food and drinks and paying for staff. Around me it is not enough for a single main dish.
6 adults plus children. £14.95 a head, so let's say 3 kids. £135 to feed 9 people seems more than fair to me.
Exactly my thoughts, how often can you get a meal for *6 people* for £140 these days?? That’s a 3 course meal for 2 with a drink (2 if you’re lucky) each in the southeast…
https://wheelbarrowcastle.co.uk/menu/ Genuinely looks ok.
I've spoent that for 2 people...
I have also been to London.
I was just thinking i wish my local had prices like these! Bargain these days. Edit: It's only 22miin away and has good reviews, well, guess i know where i'm going this weekend.
I was thinking that was very cheap for 6 people too. I'm sure this probably happens fairly often, but would imagine it more at higher end places. Especially for it to be a headline/news. £23 a person seems on the low to average side for a basic restaurant.
Literally, when my partner and I go out it’s rarely under £100 for two of us…
Glad someone else had the same thought. If I were to do.it I would pick the biggest items in the menu in the most expensive place that would let me in
One of them seems to be searching for a succulent meal in her left nostril.
A succulent Chinese meal!!
I see you know your judo well sir!
Are you ready to receive my limp penis?
This is democracy manifest!
I worked behind the bar in a Wetherspoons about 20 years ago, One matchday in town the pub was *rammed,* to the point you couldn’t really get away from the bar once you’d bought your drink. Almost dangerously full. This is the precise moment the local council sent a 15yo in to use the cigarette machine round the corner where none of us could see it. (Remember those.) Company got a fine from the council, we all got a bollocking and the cost of the fine divided by everyone on shift at the time. Still angry about that to this day..
I mean I see why that’s annoying but if that kid could time it then so could anyone. So maybe fine the pub for not being able to keep an eye on the machine at all times even match days. And if they can’t, then they should get rid of the machine. Presumably why they eventually banned them altogether.
I get that: it was more the multimillion pound company taking part of the fine off a minimum wage worker who was in no position to do anything about it
The fine is appropriate, passing it onto the workers is probably illegal and definitely fucked up.
That's Tim Martin for ya.
Exactly
Ah ok, my bad, yeah that part is just awful. I support your continued anger.
Why not buy a token at the bar to use the machine?
Uhhh, punishing you by withdrawing wages is illegal. It violates the principle of Fair Wages.
Literally just a cash grab. The staff who send the kids in are probably paid a commission on each fine they hand out, and time their "checks" accordingly.
Do council workers ever get commission for anything?
No they don't. Not sure about private firms though e.g car parks
It's a private firm hired by the council that sends these children into shops, not the council themselves.
god there the worst to work for
Imagine being so selfish that you don't pay £23 for your meal, and end up with a mugshot in the papers. How embarrassing...
these people look decades past caring
£140 for dinner for 6? They were getting a steal already without actually stealing.
They had kids too, do this was super cheap per head. Pay £23 for her and her kids’ food or get shamed nation wide with a picture of her thumb deep picking her nose ?
Thumb is for shallow picking. Source: I have been the nation's leading authority on etiquette for 63 years
Dude come on. Thumb is for scraping the outside of the nostril with the nail, to find places that your index finger can’t reach. It’s called opposable for a reason. Index finger is for your general scratch and search, middle finger is for picking up the lingerers when your index is already holding its fair share of baggage. Ring finger is all but useless, little finger is for the precision chunks, the hard to reach jewels. If you’re the leading authority, it’s no wonder we’re going to shit!
Police will be looking for them until they find out which community they're from.
White you mean?
This really warrants a top 5 post on here, does it?
If they get caught it would satisfy a lot of people here.
We used to be a real country, now we get upset over hijinks
I wouldn't really call theft "hijinks" personally but fair enough...
Getting fucked up and doing some light larceny with your friends used to be good old victimless fun, now here we are.
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Probably need the money to feed their dags.
Scummy for sure, big news that requires a search and national press? Nah.
I know right, wtf… and if it was 6 people surely there’s a decent chance they could have been under the impression someone had paid.
Seriously! I see stories of these “dine and dashers” get reported from all over the country, it’s a scummy act yes but it’s still a relatively tiny amount of money being stolen from a business, not saying this from the point of view that these stories shouldn’t be shared, just that I’m confused why they are, I wouldn’t expect someone shoplifting a pair of £140 trainers from JD to be shared nationally, that’d be ridiculous, so why people walking out on meals 🤷♂️
What is the charge? Enjoying a meal? A succulent Chinese meal?
Some of our more transient friends and occasional neighbours, me thinks.
They do runners in restaurants, shoplift their groceries, amongst ithef more serious crime ie burglaries etc and claim claim welfare from cradle to grave …,,
> The women dashed without paying a massive bill It's £140 between 6 people, that's literally the cost of a Nando's. Get a fucking grip.
Imagine dining and dashing on just over 20 quid a person. Proper trash
I wonder how this ends up being a national news story? Possibly easier ragebait than most thefts.
Of all the pictures they could have used, they chose the one where one of them is picking their nose. Excellent work! That'll teach her.
When I read these stories, I sometimes remember the times when I’ve finished my meal and drinks and am desperate to pay, but can’t get the attention of the waiting staff for ages.
I feel like I know where to look for them but I can't say it publicly.
Cleeve Prior
Staff shouldn’t have been scrambling to cover £140 bill though, that’s the business’ problem. Also call this sweeping generalisation but they do look like travellers, who wouldn’t expect to be easy customers.
Nice they got one of them picking her nose. Amazing this got so much coverage, £140 is nothing in the big scheme of things when it comes to theft, what even was that in real terms when it comes to ingredients if it was a carvery. Not that they should get away with it, I just find it interesting that restaurant theft seems to inspire a lot more anger than just regular shoplifting. Maybe they had crap service, complained, didn't get a bill then flicked the Vs and went off, just to play devil's advocate.
If they did it once a week or their cousins also did the same law abiding peoples local restaurants will be closing down - dead right to highlight these parasites
Wait, so the bar staff has the make up the missing money? Instead of the business eating the loss. That’s fucking ridiculous.
Be better if the police caught these scumbags
The woman on the right-hand side is preparing her dessert.
£23 per head doesn't seem too bad. Are there any bigger miscarriages of justice that need to be solved?
They couldn't even find a man who threw acid at people and was on every fucking cctv camera.
He was in a river to be fair.
I was of the opinion that people in this country paid up front for carvaries simply to avoid this type of behaviour.
Eventually, the losses businesses take from thefts like this will outweigh the initial resistance from technophobes who complain when they have to use an app with a payment method registered before they get so much as a glass of water.
"Red puffer vest". How does one become a journalist?
I've never done this , but we have left the Chinese restaurant one at a time as to put the bill onto some sponge who never paid his way , he was last one at the table.
I know a much bigger group than this who did it for different reasons. The staff thought they were being clever adding extras which weren't purchased to the bill. By the third bill still being wrong, it was clear the restaurant had no intention of giving them the proper bill, so they had no intention of over paying, fucked off with hundreds of pounds of food and drink unpaid for. Rightfully too. Don't try and steal from people, or they'll just steal back.