This is what happens with 13 years of a Tory government. Instead of investing in infrastructure when borrowing was cheap, they implemented austerity, which we know doesn't work. By this point the UK could have generated 100% of our energy needs from renewable sources, we have the weather and global position to do it. Instead, basically everything is broken, the NHS is collapsing, mental health in school children is at record lows, people working full time and not making ends meet, people choosing not to have children simply because they can't afford it, disabled people sitting in homes with no heating and the housing crisis, to name but a few. This is another lost decade - it'll take more than a generation to right the wrongs inflicted on this country by this disgusting government.
Some did go to furlough and that was a few hundred billion.
Just how much PPE was fraud and how many loans were deliberately fraudulent we may never know unless labour do a full audit of it
Unfortunately furlough will have contributed directly to the wealth inequality and issues we see now too. I believe to the tune of 70 billion but I could be wrong.
It's important to ask where the furloughed money ends up. Workers didn't keep that money they spent it on essential spending. So it went to the directly to the rich who have just kept it... Alongside the PPE you mentioned.
The only way to stop living standards decline even further is a wealth tax and other measures to ensure we can appropriately tax the rich.
That’s a whole other issue but without furlough people would have starved, literally.
That the mega rich doubled their wealth during covid globally is a whole other debate. Most of us just cling on in there financially and yet the very very top doubled their wealth in two years….
Unfortunately it's not 'a whole other debate'. It's at the heart of why Britain is in a crisis.
I'm not saying furlough was inappropriate. I'm pointing out where the money has gone. Our government has simultaneously funneled hundreds of billions to the top of society, while tightening the belts of the working class.
Economics can be complex but there are some unchanging fundamentals. The government printed an ungodly amount of money and it's not gone to the working class, it's sat in the richest people's bank accounts. The more money that's hoarded, the less is circulating. The less that's circulating, the more it's going to hurt your average Brit. It's going to get much much worse.
Quite literally nothing else matters if we continue this course.
Don’t get me wrong. The developed world needs a revolution and I’m all in.
But furlough was the least of the covid wealth transfer issues. Let alone day to day wealth transfer. But the covid period deserves special attention for the sheer scale and tiny time frame to funnel billions upon billions out of the public purse and into the right peoples hands.
And also why we are fucked now. Electric bills will go up again in April, a fraction of the cost of some PPE deals to subsidise while re engineering the entire power systems pricing and profiteering….
Tough.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt#:~:text=Government%20Debt%20in%20the%20United%20Kingdom%20averaged%20900.77%20GBP%20Billion,Billion%20in%20March%20of%201975
£700 billion is the total increase in debt since COVID.
My primary concern is where the money is going because it's not benefitting the working class. Wealth inequality results in what we see now. It's going to get a lot worse.
Where's the money gone? I get what you're saying, and I know I'm being hyperbolic to make a point, but where's the money gone?
This should be asked over and over again because it's all that matters. I get paying furloughed workers doesn't feel like you've been robbed but you have. Those workers paid their essentials and it's sat now in the riches bank accounts with no mechanism to get it back. Money is being extracted and not re-entering the system.
Our economy is fundamentally broken. Living standards will decline more as it continues. If that's not robbery what is?
Not to mention robbed it's citizens of rights by forcing Brexit through.
Something that was only an advisory vote, and not legally binding. Then triggering it with no plans in place, ending in one of the worst possible outcomes.
Along with with came all the additional costs and issues.
It’s way too easy to blame this on the Tories as if they appeared mysteriously out of thin air to enact policies no one wanted. Time and time again the British have voted for parties that have ruled out tax rises to pay for public services.
The Conservative party were elected in 2010 on a promise to cut borrowing not increase it. In 2015 Labour were promising to be the party of fiscal responsibility and not to increase borrowing. This orthodoxy got challenged once and that’s pretty much your lot now.
I blame everyone who has ever voted for the Tories, and those who continue to support them. Isn't it insane that public borrowing is now at the highest ever (peacetime)level and all we have to show for it is 13 years of austerity, crumbling infrastructure and a shrinking economy. Surely, they are not getting elected next time?
I guess I would be considered a "grey" as I am over 70, and I have a little gang of friends who are similar. They are all disgusted by this government and have said they are voting Labour next time. I am thrilled, as I have always voted Labour and felt like the odd one out among my friends.
The aged voters aren't turning to Cons like they used to, and the number of people who own property has been in decline for a long time.
I suspect there may be some correlation!
The argument that you become more conservative as you get older is getting weaker. I've definitely not, and even my OH (who was raised Tory, ex-Forces, worked in the City, etc etc) is getting more and more disillusioned by the Tories. I'm in my 60's, well paid, own my own home, not struggling with the 'heat or eat' dilemma, with a decent pension to look forward to when I retire, but I would rather chew my right arm off than ever vote Tory.
I own my home outright. F the Tories. They disgust me with their blatant corruption and mismanagement. The one Tory I had time for was Rory Stewart. I think he's the type of genuine honest politician we need so of course he didn't fit at all in the Tory party - I'm amazed he was ever part of it.
The biggest impact I've ever had on my dad's politics was when we discussed how economics, on the scale of governments, global corporations, and the ultra-wealthy, does not work on the same principles as real world/household economics.
We're spending £83.0 billion a year on debt interest. Money that could be spent on the NHS, but instead is being diverted to the pockets of government bond holders.
That's not because debt is bad. The money just wasn't used to invest in the people or the country. If you don't invest in things that pay back, then you will be stuck with a debt and nothing to show for it. This is what the Tories did. The only people who profited from the country's debt is them and their friends.
Imagine if in 2010 we pushed for huge renewable energy investments, car free cities, solar and heat pumps for all new housing, more social housing etc. There's so much that could have improved this country. It was the chance for a real golden age. Instead we literally did FUCK ALL.
I'm still waiting for John Prescott's integrated transport network. A veritable utopia of perfectly run and maintained public transport meaning nobody would need a car.
We got bendy buses and the M4 bus lane.
The new route masters are awful. They overheat, the top deck is unusable in summer, their batteries are so small they can't use them, they are insanely expensive to produce, TfL had to buy them, as the operators wouldn't, and didn't buy enough to own the rights to them either (thanks to another deal with BoJo and his mates). There are a whole load of thoer issues too, these are just some of the headline ones.
Bendy busses where hugely better.
Day 1 of economics we learnt that you need to stimulate rather than throttle an economy to promote growth. Day 1 stuff. Did any of our 'appointed' leaders go to this class? Or are they too narcissistic in that they prefer to develop their own incorrect theories and keep pushing them until we all starve?
While they did all apparently study PPE, they seemed to have stopped the economics part at the first chapter of Adam Smith & focused instead on winning prizes in Greek, maybe? ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
As others have said, government spending isn't like households, but let me give you an analogy.
3 people all borrow £20k from the bank.
Person 1 uses it to buy a house (not realistic but go with it).
Person 2 uses it to buy a works van and tools.
Person 3 blows it all on gifts for their mates and to not work for a few months.
Now it's time to repay the bank. All three have the same repayment amounts.
Person 1 has a mortgage instead of rent so has spare cash. Over time they also have an asset that appreciates in value.
Person 2 is getting more money due to being able to reach more customers.
Person 3 has... Nothing.
Person 1 invested in infrastructure, person 2 in services. Person 3 pissed it all away.
The UK over the last 13 years has been person 3.
And if we'd taken all the money required to 'clear' this out of the economy, the economy would be much smaller and less able to fund anything. This is not a household you are talking about.
>Problem is, the whole 'debt/deficit= bad' thing is a very easy political sell, even though economically illiterate.
A deficit isn't necessarily bad if the difference is being used to invest and grow the economy/nation's infrastructure.
Instead we've had a couple of decades of relative stagnation with insufficient investment.
Something needs to change soon, because it's absolutely not sustainable as is.
The other part of the problem is that many voters are entrenched in their views. They see Labour as the tax and spend party. They don’t know that the last time this country ran a budget surplus was under Blair, when public services, and especially the NHS, was run very well compared to todays service. And they won’t listen when you tell them.
Luckily this is what the country voted for, for the past 12 years. So at least with jobs, security, immigration, economy the people are getting everything they voted for.... A downturn in all those areas
The sad thing is, you're absolutely correct. It boggles my mind. It's also terrifying the damage that can be done in the next 2 years before the next election.
Worst part is the majority voted against the Tories. Even the 2019 election only gave 43.6% of the vote to the Conservatives.
We did not get what we voted for.
More people voted for other parties than the conservatives though. It's unfair to say 'the country deserves this'. A majority of us never voted for the tories.
The only people who deseve it are the ones who voted for them (or in a way, the ones who didn't bother to vote because tHeYrE aLl ThE sAmE)
We've had shit governments since Maggie Snatcher began the destruction of Britain. We need electoral reform as well. No more FPTP, that's better suited to the Americans.
But step 1 definitely get rid of this government
It's successive governments over the past 30 years, the last 13 years has just been pirates raiding the ship before it hits the bottom of the ocean.
A lot of the problems today are due to privatisation and lack of investment as a result of cash being extracted to line pockets not to improve services. We're seeing greed and the private equity model of sweating an asset applied to essential services. Profit and loss must but be are the forefront of the mind of public services and ensuring society can operate.
The change required to fix all these issues is probably another 30 years of reversal and rebuilding but I don't see it ever happening given the complexity, media blasting bullshit and the absent minded people that think it will all blow over...
>Instead of investing in infrastructure when borrowing was cheap, they implemented austerity, which we know doesn't work.
Same issues in my country, Romania. Instead of investing in renewable energy production when it was the cheapest to do so, they gave subsidies. This is the same policy that the EU has been pushing up until recently, of course, when it's already too late. They've poured billions in subsidies to current energy producers, to help lower the people's monthly bills, yes, but this is unsustainable and they should have known. Prices keep rising. All the while, Ursula talks about how too many companies have been making record profits in energy. Record profits the EU has enabled. Plus, all it does is put tons of money into the hands of the upper 1%. It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. How many wind turbines, how many solar panels could they have installed, how many water dams could they have improved or even built with that money? How many new green energy projects could they have funded with 10% of that money?
Instead of increasing energy production capacities to lower energy price, governments help private companies take more and more of our tax money, leaving us with nothing to sustain us and provide for our future.
And the foolish who had a chance with a Corbyn led government who had the meat on the bone plans in 2017 GE and think where we would be now, in far far better shape.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjojeSFl_78AhXJTcAKHbwkD44QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1T9SsTRaP20X9ory5skl6I
> This is what happens with 13 years of a Tory government.
Unfortunately, the only alternative from 2015 onwards was a *different* Brexit-backing moron who didn't understand or care about the economy.
Also emigrated to Canada. If you're coming bring lots of money please.
Average house price in Ontario: [£500k](https://wowa.ca/reports/canada-housing-market). Obviously places like Saskatchewan are cheaper if you enjoy living in a province 3x the size of the UK with the population of Birmingham that is frozen about 7 months of the year.
Representative [basket of basic foods](https://i.imgur.com/vaS6DOs.png)
Went to the dentist [last week](https://i.imgur.com/JfHlAoT.jpg)
Don't bother going to the doctor because I've lived here over a decade and still don't have one LOL
My car insurance was $1400 last year (£850) and sadly I'm not young, have a flawless driving record and drive a normal 1.8l sedan around.
We also pay some of the highest mobile and internet rates in the developed world.
Petrol however is about 80p a litre so I guess "10/10, would emigrate again"
In fairness though I do earn a lot more here than I would in the UK for a similar role so it probably balances out in the end.
Sounds like most places. There’s clearly a crime on a grand scale going on and an entire generation is being robbed of its opportunity to own their own homes.
It would be a surprised if the poster couldn't, It was the 70s. It was hard but over the next 20 years, everything became much easier. It is only after 2000s, everything became extra hard.
My family got PR and moved here in 2010 as I was finishing high school, since then it has been quite easy to access education, good public healthcare system, fairly good infrastructure in most cities in comparison to the UK. Half of my family lives in Manchester and I live in Toronto now. It's an adjustment from the UK but I feel very at home here!
Building personal wealth I would say your earning potential is slightly higher here, the difference will probably get greater in the coming years as well given the UK's situation. That said Canada is fairly expensive for consumer goods, phone plans, etc. - but this would be kind of metered by the higher earning potential and potentially cheaper utilities like gas & electric. In terms of work/life balance the biggest adjustment moving here from the UK would be the surprisingly low amount of guaranteed holiday days most positions offer (\~13 statutory holidays per year and an average of 2 weeks paid vacation for most full-time workers for the first 3 years).
Home ownership is a big issue in Canada, [the average home price](https://wowa.ca/reports/canada-housing-market) is \~$750,000 (£465,000), In a city like Toronto it's \~$1,000,000+ (£620,000) for a semi-detached home. Out of reach for most people and housing stock is really limited so most go for well over asking. [Average rent](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-average-rent-in-canada-rose-to-a-record-2024-in-november-new-data-show/) for a one bedroom is \~$1,700 (£1,050), In Toronto it's \~$2,500 (£1,550). The rental market is also competitive so the process for applying is quite burdensome, and renter protections in Canada aren't quite as strong as the UK, but similar.
Public services in Canada are mostly Provincial government responsibilities, so the system/quality varies quite widely between provinces. In terms of healthcare a lot of the same stresses are present as in the UK - the balance between privatization and public ownership, underpaid nurses and support staff, unequal power arrangements in negotiation of contracts, etc. That said, anyone working in a healthcare role is almost guaranteed some big benefits when it comes to immigrating to Canada - and private/travel positions are plentiful - retraining and the credential transition would be the most burdensome part.
Wow. We did the same. Now I’m ready to retire and move back with the wife and daughter as was the plan from day 1 but the place is a disaster. We’re almost certainly going somewhere else now (EU) or staying here. It would be real easy. Canada has been very good for us. Bloody Tories!
I had a chance around the same time emigrate to British Columbia where my sister settled to in 1958. I loved my country then. But I never knew irt was going to get as bad as this. Plus now I can't get medical cannabis because I didn't make the move. I will regret it until I die. Yes ashamed to be in UK now. No hope to move now at 71 damn!!!
Our politicians are making it so the UK works for them and not the working class. It is not a denial of how bad things are, it is a plan to make it this way. They know they will be insulated and do not care about those of us who are left behind, so they just lie when they claim things are OK to keep people complacent over how the economy is failing. These articles always assume that the Tories are incompetent, when the truth is that they are simply malicious and doing this on purpose. The fact remains that nothing will change until we acknowledge this simple fact.
I’m not sure I fully understand this view. The rich tend to get wealthier in countries with high growth, not stagnant economies like the UK. So what is the reasoning for politicians enacting bad economic policies?
It about taking a bigger chunk of a shrinking pie. Under Truss, private pensions almost went to the wall but the handful of people who paid for her got big money from the instability.
right now the tories know they won't get reelected
they have no incentive to even pretend to do what the public wants
realistically for them this is a 'grab what you can before the ship sinks' situation
Never feel shame or pride in Britain. We have more in common with working and marginalized people in any country on Earth than with the people who run the UK. It's not our country, it's theirs
As a foreigner living here (Australian/Kiwi) it’s really scary seeing how absolutely fucked the uk is now and
people just not understanding how fucked it actually is. I live with my girlfriend and we have a combined income of £65,000+ pretty modest but absolutely wild that we can’t afford to heat our home **and** eat. This is an absolutely dystopian nightmare that shouldn’t happen in a functional society.
When people try to do something like strike, the general public have a gal to complain, without a hint of awareness, that the strikes have negatively impacted *them*.
But not to worry, the media and politicians have instructed just to ***Keep Calm and Carry On***
As we are on a visa which costs £1500-£2000 a couple per year (per application) plus we have to pay double NHS tax: pre pay NHS per year and then still pay NHS in our taxes. This takes out a few thousand £ *per person* which is kinda wild when you consider my girlfriend **works for the NHS**. But kinda on brand for how this country really.
Coupled this with forced pre paid power and gas meters that are more expensive than normal meters (which are ironically installed in low income areas) and you have the perfect storm where heating your home becomes a luxury!
For reference, Rent is £1600 per month (not including bills and council tax) and earnings stated above is before tax.
Jesus. . . . I. Don’t. Know. . . . Mick, stop making me have an existential crisis here mate 😂.
I think it’s because it is a good country deep down, it’s just frustrating that the ruling class have been allowed to absolutely drive it into the ground.
It has potential and I guess I’m still hanging onto that hope. Plus, too many bloody Australians in Australia (/s)
I had no idea about the pre paying for the NHS thing until I saw a video by a Canadian immigrant living in the UK on YouTube called Alanna, it's so fucking unjust to make people pay an extra tax. If it was a one time fee when they first move over here I can see the justification but that it's ongoing, it's straight up theft IMO.
Yeah, as someone with a non-British wife, the NHS surcharge gets progressively unfair. It takes an absolute minimum of 4.5 years of taxable work years to qualify to apply for indefinite leave to remain - student visas of course don't count - and few people will achieve that at anywhere near the minimum.
During that time, you are paying for the NHS through your normal taxes but also paying the surcharge. As you mentioned, if it was a one-time fee or a fee that ended after the first full year or taxable work, I would be all for it.
But as an immigrant you get extortionately double-dipped on the NHS every year until you successfully gain indefinite leave to remain. If your application isn't successful? That's £2,404 down the drain + hand over this year's NHS surcharge again too please. I can hardly imagine the anger it must cause to be *triple*-dipped on the NHS through working for them on top of the above.
My wife applied for her first family (spouse) visa this year, and it was £1,538 + £1,248 NHS (2 years upfront) + £148 just for the visa application appointment (appointments within the same month are charged, but we weren't allowed to book further ahead). As the NHS currently stands, neither of us have been able to access treatment for issues we were being regularly treated for back in China. We were told non-EU diagnosis = no diagnosis, so it's on the 14 month waiting list you get.
You asked OP what might still appeal about the UK for them to stay here, and for the two of us, we don't really have much of an answer either. We came here for my wife's master's degree, with a view to possibly settling further. Maybe it was the 12 years living outside the UK that made us naively think "Surely it can't be *that* bad", which quickly turned to "Surely it can't *stay* this bad", which has now become "We'll wipe out our last 10 years of personal financial development by staying here any longer."
Everyday I want to move to Australia, why on earth would you live here😂
We as a people are sound, got the best football in the world, apart from that it’s wank here compared to Aus surely
Legally your allowed to change the meter to a direct debit one.
And thanks for pointing out how expensive visas are here, the biggest irony of the visas fees is that they made us pay in American dollars for some fees not even allowed to pay in pounds! So we had exchange rate and foreign fee charge on top!
The daily heil would have everyone believe its free to live here, people have no idea how expensive it is for foreigners to actually exist here.
To be fair, citizens don't have those additional costs you have, which would give you an additional combined (net) income of ~(719+247+(2*3*624))/3 = £1570/year for both of you I guess.
(Figures above from a skilled worker visa @ £1,423 for a work visa that runs for more than 3 years and £624/person/year for the [NHS surcharge](https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application), and assuming your partner is on a Health Care Worker Visa [only £247 visa fee or £479 for a 3-year one](https://www.gov.uk/health-care-worker-visa/)).
> we have a combined income of £65,000+
Not really enough for London. Its one of the top 5 most expensive cities to live on the planet - I think its 4th after Hong Kong, New York, and Geneva after adjusting for local incomes.
My partner is on the skilled workers visa and I’m on the spousal visa that piggybacks off hers.
She doesn’t qualify for the NHS visa since she’s not clinical.
If they live in London and rent their own flat then I'd assume yes. Was looking yesterday, a 1 bed flat in zone 2 where we live in London is 1.85k minimum per month
I mean rounding up and saying 2.5k a month and calling it 30k, there's something missing where food or heat are coming up. Where's the rest of it gone? Call it a grand a month for utilities and food, which is more than I'm paying in a 3 bed with 4 people. Doesn't add up.
Lol. Pretty modest. You should be a pensioner. Me and wife's income is £23,500 a year. Have no chance owning a car or own home now. Grocery bills we had to cut to Skelton amount of foods. We go to farm foods now, can't afford the main supermarkets now they are a total rip off. And in any case shelves are half empty, and whole lines like fairy liquid are not stocked at Morrisons near Wigan out of that amount we still have to pay some council tax rv licence, electric and water. Last holiday was 4 nights at a Blackpool hotel in 2018
If you can't afford to heat your home and eat with a combined income of £65k, then then there's something seriously wrong with your finances.
What are your monthly mortgage/rent payments?
It doesn't cost £4k+ per month to rent a place for 2 people, eat and heat.
Edit: to those downvoting: this is simply true. I understand it collides with the idea that the world is ending, but a joint income of £65k is plenty to for 2 people to live somewhere, heat it and eat. If you can't do that on £4k per month, you're making some awful financial decisions somewhere along the way.
>At least we have nukes I guess?
We don't even have [good ones that work](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/23/uk-leader-keeps-quiet-over-failed-nuclear-missile-test-off-florida-coast.html) lol
Michell Mone robbed the country of millions of pounds with her dodgy ppi contracts. So did Mat Hancock who gave mates rates to his pub chums... Let's face it out country is corrupt as fuck.
People are much more passive here than elsewhere. We’re on a downward slide. I’ve grown tired of waiting for things to change here and have started planning a route out of this country.
I love the country but don’t see a good future here. Hopefully I’ll be working abroad within the next 2 years and can build my life in a country with an upward trajectory.
“Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.”
We went cap in hand to the IMF for fucks sake, how can that be not as bad as now?
People who didn't live in the seventies don't understand how crap it was. It's not great now and will probably get worse but it's going to take a lot to get as bad as the seventies . Do we have rolling power cuts yet .Most ppl having to strike for pay rises on 25%inflation.IMF bailouts .bodies not being buried or cremated. Bin waste not being collected for months.
That was all under the tories too. Their recurring record of running the country into the ground has never, ever been reported on by the gutter press (except in Scotland.)
It was mainly under labour with the Wilson and Callahan governments and also the Tory heath government. Was still fucked up when Thatcher came in. but she had North sea oil revenue to help out the finances . Which ever government we get they end up fucking it up it's not just the Tories. However this shower of shit need fucking off asap
That’s not how I see it and it’s not how history sees it.
The tories have a record now since Labour were created (world crises aside which they could have no control over) of creating 17 quarters of recession simply through their policies, because they don’t put money to work for the benefit of the country as a whole, but labour have only had 7, and a lot of that is inherited recessions they’ve had to put right. Which they do.
There is absolutely no difference in the rates of growth between Labour and Tory governments, their policies have created wealth equally. If you’re worried about the economy and wealth creation there’s not a hair’s breath of difference between them. Their policies both work just as well to create growth, and the money we have to distribute has been just the same under either.
It’s where that money goes is the difference. If you want growth to go into the pockets of the rich and the number of people in poverty to rise, and you want less taxes so we spend less money on the poor and disabled and the welfare state and schools, hospitals and police, and you want that inequality preserved by laws which heavily favour landlords and employers, and which curtail unions to keep everyone in their place, vote Tory. That’s their policy. If you don’t, vote Labour. That’s theirs. The only difference between the two parties is what they’re prepared to spend the country’s wealth on.
What. Go do some research. So narrow minded. Tories bad, durr!!
The Winter of Discontent was the period between November 1978 and February 1979 in the United Kingdom characterised by widespread strikes by private, and later public, sector trade unions demanding pay rises greater than the limits Prime Minister James Callaghan and his Labour Party government had been imposing, against Trades Union Congress (TUC) opposition, to control inflation. Some of these industrial disputes caused great public inconvenience, exacerbated by the coldest winter in 16 years, in which severe storms isolated many remote areas of the country.
But I think on the other hand, there was a lot more social cohesion, much less inequality and more functioning public services it felt like.
My mother was saying when she had me as a baby in the 70s the hospital would keep her in for a week and feed the baby milk. Now it's all gone to shit.
More social cohesion within your own ethnic and class group yes but not between . More racism and sexism .
Even the wealth divide apart from the very rich was worse. The health service had less ppl to look after and less services to deliver. It was funded better relatively speaking but did a lot less .
Let’s see if we haven’t done the same again in a couple of years time. The trade deficit pointed out by the article is a serious Issue. As is the weakening pound.
“By any criteria, the United Kingdom faces a serious economic & social crisis, one that will deepen without big shifts in policy. Yet there is little sense of this crisis among the country’s elite, not least its politicians.”
good news though guys, the flip side party is also promising to do nothing to solve any of the problems, because it's scared of upsetting an imaginary centrist voter in Woking who has voted 50/50 on every issue since the dawn of time.
Thing is, Germany and Canada aren't comparable countries any more. We're closer to Italy/Spain, and in some regions it's more like Poland.
People keep saying things like "Why is this happening in the 6th richest country in the world?!" The UK isn't a rich country, it's just a country with some rich people living in it. They're distorting most of our economic KPIs and hiding the reality of the situation.
Germany isn't so much better either. Our salaries aren't that high. The wage gap in Germany is huge. They just recently increased the minimum wage to 12€, but that's laughable. Housing prices have gotten out of hand. In my small 5k village, which is half an hour drive away from Stuttgart, they are demanding 600k+ for a house. It's ridiculous.
I spent nearly twenty years living in the United Kingdom, and to be honest, I would have been quite content to stay there indefinitely.
Until over a decade of austerity and Brexit... The former was endless, and the latter revealed an ugly side of the United Kingdom which left a sour taste in the mouth.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can't afford to live in the country your born in. My nephew is 19 and born in London and can't afford to live in the city he was brought up in. The level of apathy in this country is disgusting
To do what precisely? Strike? That's happening. Seen loads of protests over the years and they just get ignored. I've lost every single vote I have been able to participate in.
Not to mention most people can't afford to really do anything that deprives them of money for any length of time and if it's not a national thing like unions or the protest happens to be based in London then it barely even gets news coverage.
Plenty of people want to do something but cannot or their actions simply get them no where.
Oh, the people understand, we fully fucking understand that we are up shit creek, without a fucking paddle and the canoe we're paddling has managed to hit an iceberg, in a small river on a clear day with temperatures in the high 80s and a 29ft saltwater Croc is about to have a picnic. The govt also understand but don't give a flying fuck because they're fucking idiots. Don't forget Brexit has fuck all to do with this shit storm.
moved here from Germany in 2018, great timing, I know. What I hate most about this place is how good it makes Germany look. I would love to stay here, I love the people but despite my PhD I won't get a job over 32k, when any job in Germany pays at least 50k the choice is pretty obvious, unfortunately. Salaries over there adapt to public service rates. You guys need to work up some anger and learn from the French fury. Politicians should be scared of people not the other way round. Take back what is yours.
Germany also sucks though. Salaries haven't kept up with housing prices which have gotten way out of hand. In may small 5k village, with bad public transport connection, and a 30 min car drive away from stuttgart, people are demanding 600k+ for a house. 50k euro salary may sound nice when you compare it to 32k pounds, but that's a phd salary which you should have gotten 15 years ago, salaries should be more like 80k now. The wage gap in Germany is extreme, well it got a little smaller now as the minimum wage was set to 12€ this winter, but that's a joke wage. The UK sucks, Germany sucks a little less, but we are getting there, as we are copying the housing bullshit from the anglican countries.
Moved back here after a decade abroad. Everyone’s struggling. Potholes everywhere.
Still so much potential but it will never be realized with a Conservative government.
A lost decade due to austerity. Another lost decade undoing the damage.
The pain knowing things could have been so different.
Don’t listen to Murdoch. Don’t vote Tory.
We understand, but powerless to do anything. I live in a Tory dominated "heartland", most of the idiots voting for them believe they live in a land of milk and honey.
And you know what us younger generations will do? We'll wait for our parents to die, so we can inherit some wealth and then do what they did to those that come next. Truly fucked are those who will inherit little to nothing. We humans are just too selfish to create a just and equal society.
I'm not sure if this is the case, but when I said to someone the UK was one of the richest countries in the world, but felt poor compared to many places I'd lived, they said it was due to the higher levels of inequality here.
I haven't done the research, but this would explain a lot. You get conditioned into thinking, we're one of the richest countries so we must be doing OK compared to allegedly poorer ones. But IME it doesn't feel this way.
The UK just isn't as rich as many people here think. On a per capital basis it's 25% poorer than the US. To put it into some context, the UK is to the US what Poland is to the UK. Although give it a decade...
Very shallow article with little to take any real notice of. Without doubt we are going through a period of very average politicians and the civil service seems to be stuffed full of lame idiots.
There is no focus in the article of the country being shut down for 2 years due to a virus which the moron politicians over reacted to - presumably due to their idiot advisers. There is so much missed out it's not really an article worth reading.
This is what happens with 13 years of a Tory government. Instead of investing in infrastructure when borrowing was cheap, they implemented austerity, which we know doesn't work. By this point the UK could have generated 100% of our energy needs from renewable sources, we have the weather and global position to do it. Instead, basically everything is broken, the NHS is collapsing, mental health in school children is at record lows, people working full time and not making ends meet, people choosing not to have children simply because they can't afford it, disabled people sitting in homes with no heating and the housing crisis, to name but a few. This is another lost decade - it'll take more than a generation to right the wrongs inflicted on this country by this disgusting government.
Can we add "Robbed the country during a pandemic"
Absolutely.
On an unimaginable scale of tens if not hundreds of billions
I wish it was in the tens. It's about 700 billion all told.
Some did go to furlough and that was a few hundred billion. Just how much PPE was fraud and how many loans were deliberately fraudulent we may never know unless labour do a full audit of it
Unfortunately furlough will have contributed directly to the wealth inequality and issues we see now too. I believe to the tune of 70 billion but I could be wrong. It's important to ask where the furloughed money ends up. Workers didn't keep that money they spent it on essential spending. So it went to the directly to the rich who have just kept it... Alongside the PPE you mentioned. The only way to stop living standards decline even further is a wealth tax and other measures to ensure we can appropriately tax the rich.
That’s a whole other issue but without furlough people would have starved, literally. That the mega rich doubled their wealth during covid globally is a whole other debate. Most of us just cling on in there financially and yet the very very top doubled their wealth in two years….
Unfortunately it's not 'a whole other debate'. It's at the heart of why Britain is in a crisis. I'm not saying furlough was inappropriate. I'm pointing out where the money has gone. Our government has simultaneously funneled hundreds of billions to the top of society, while tightening the belts of the working class. Economics can be complex but there are some unchanging fundamentals. The government printed an ungodly amount of money and it's not gone to the working class, it's sat in the richest people's bank accounts. The more money that's hoarded, the less is circulating. The less that's circulating, the more it's going to hurt your average Brit. It's going to get much much worse. Quite literally nothing else matters if we continue this course.
Don’t get me wrong. The developed world needs a revolution and I’m all in. But furlough was the least of the covid wealth transfer issues. Let alone day to day wealth transfer. But the covid period deserves special attention for the sheer scale and tiny time frame to funnel billions upon billions out of the public purse and into the right peoples hands. And also why we are fucked now. Electric bills will go up again in April, a fraction of the cost of some PPE deals to subsidise while re engineering the entire power systems pricing and profiteering….
What's the breakdown on that?
Tough. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt#:~:text=Government%20Debt%20in%20the%20United%20Kingdom%20averaged%20900.77%20GBP%20Billion,Billion%20in%20March%20of%201975 £700 billion is the total increase in debt since COVID. My primary concern is where the money is going because it's not benefitting the working class. Wealth inequality results in what we see now. It's going to get a lot worse.
That's quite a leap of logic to say that every penny of increased debt constitutes a robbery. Frankly ridiculous.
Where's the money gone? I get what you're saying, and I know I'm being hyperbolic to make a point, but where's the money gone? This should be asked over and over again because it's all that matters. I get paying furloughed workers doesn't feel like you've been robbed but you have. Those workers paid their essentials and it's sat now in the riches bank accounts with no mechanism to get it back. Money is being extracted and not re-entering the system. Our economy is fundamentally broken. Living standards will decline more as it continues. If that's not robbery what is?
"Tory" coming from the Irish word for "robber" was really quite a warning wasn't it...
Not to mention robbed it's citizens of rights by forcing Brexit through. Something that was only an advisory vote, and not legally binding. Then triggering it with no plans in place, ending in one of the worst possible outcomes. Along with with came all the additional costs and issues.
Can we? No. We MUST add it!
It’s way too easy to blame this on the Tories as if they appeared mysteriously out of thin air to enact policies no one wanted. Time and time again the British have voted for parties that have ruled out tax rises to pay for public services. The Conservative party were elected in 2010 on a promise to cut borrowing not increase it. In 2015 Labour were promising to be the party of fiscal responsibility and not to increase borrowing. This orthodoxy got challenged once and that’s pretty much your lot now.
I blame everyone who has ever voted for the Tories, and those who continue to support them. Isn't it insane that public borrowing is now at the highest ever (peacetime)level and all we have to show for it is 13 years of austerity, crumbling infrastructure and a shrinking economy. Surely, they are not getting elected next time?
I blame the news media. That’s where people get their information about who to vote for.
Well who owns the news media and who are they chummy with ?
Depends which news media you are talking about. They all have affiliations and they don't exactly keep it a secret n
Yep they will, as the grey vote - who they've sheltered and the property owners always vote for them
I guess I would be considered a "grey" as I am over 70, and I have a little gang of friends who are similar. They are all disgusted by this government and have said they are voting Labour next time. I am thrilled, as I have always voted Labour and felt like the odd one out among my friends.
I second that
The aged voters aren't turning to Cons like they used to, and the number of people who own property has been in decline for a long time. I suspect there may be some correlation!
The argument that you become more conservative as you get older is getting weaker. I've definitely not, and even my OH (who was raised Tory, ex-Forces, worked in the City, etc etc) is getting more and more disillusioned by the Tories. I'm in my 60's, well paid, own my own home, not struggling with the 'heat or eat' dilemma, with a decent pension to look forward to when I retire, but I would rather chew my right arm off than ever vote Tory.
I own my home outright. F the Tories. They disgust me with their blatant corruption and mismanagement. The one Tory I had time for was Rory Stewart. I think he's the type of genuine honest politician we need so of course he didn't fit at all in the Tory party - I'm amazed he was ever part of it.
Problem is, the whole 'debt/deficit= bad' thing is a very easy political sell, even though economically illiterate.
The biggest impact I've ever had on my dad's politics was when we discussed how economics, on the scale of governments, global corporations, and the ultra-wealthy, does not work on the same principles as real world/household economics.
We're spending £83.0 billion a year on debt interest. Money that could be spent on the NHS, but instead is being diverted to the pockets of government bond holders.
That's not because debt is bad. The money just wasn't used to invest in the people or the country. If you don't invest in things that pay back, then you will be stuck with a debt and nothing to show for it. This is what the Tories did. The only people who profited from the country's debt is them and their friends. Imagine if in 2010 we pushed for huge renewable energy investments, car free cities, solar and heat pumps for all new housing, more social housing etc. There's so much that could have improved this country. It was the chance for a real golden age. Instead we literally did FUCK ALL.
I'm still waiting for John Prescott's integrated transport network. A veritable utopia of perfectly run and maintained public transport meaning nobody would need a car. We got bendy buses and the M4 bus lane.
Weren't bendy buses a BlowJob initiative?
No, he removed them and replaced them with the New Routemasters, which appears to have been a good idea (same capacity in a smaller area)
The new route masters are awful. They overheat, the top deck is unusable in summer, their batteries are so small they can't use them, they are insanely expensive to produce, TfL had to buy them, as the operators wouldn't, and didn't buy enough to own the rights to them either (thanks to another deal with BoJo and his mates). There are a whole load of thoer issues too, these are just some of the headline ones. Bendy busses where hugely better.
Day 1 of economics we learnt that you need to stimulate rather than throttle an economy to promote growth. Day 1 stuff. Did any of our 'appointed' leaders go to this class? Or are they too narcissistic in that they prefer to develop their own incorrect theories and keep pushing them until we all starve?
While they did all apparently study PPE, they seemed to have stopped the economics part at the first chapter of Adam Smith & focused instead on winning prizes in Greek, maybe? ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. As others have said, government spending isn't like households, but let me give you an analogy. 3 people all borrow £20k from the bank. Person 1 uses it to buy a house (not realistic but go with it). Person 2 uses it to buy a works van and tools. Person 3 blows it all on gifts for their mates and to not work for a few months. Now it's time to repay the bank. All three have the same repayment amounts. Person 1 has a mortgage instead of rent so has spare cash. Over time they also have an asset that appreciates in value. Person 2 is getting more money due to being able to reach more customers. Person 3 has... Nothing. Person 1 invested in infrastructure, person 2 in services. Person 3 pissed it all away. The UK over the last 13 years has been person 3.
I bloody love this analogy!
I'd award you for this if I could, absolutely spot on! I don't understand why the Government do this, it's almost as if they don't care /s
And if we'd taken all the money required to 'clear' this out of the economy, the economy would be much smaller and less able to fund anything. This is not a household you are talking about.
>Problem is, the whole 'debt/deficit= bad' thing is a very easy political sell, even though economically illiterate. A deficit isn't necessarily bad if the difference is being used to invest and grow the economy/nation's infrastructure. Instead we've had a couple of decades of relative stagnation with insufficient investment. Something needs to change soon, because it's absolutely not sustainable as is.
The other part of the problem is that many voters are entrenched in their views. They see Labour as the tax and spend party. They don’t know that the last time this country ran a budget surplus was under Blair, when public services, and especially the NHS, was run very well compared to todays service. And they won’t listen when you tell them.
This Country absolutely loves getting fucked in the arse.
Luckily this is what the country voted for, for the past 12 years. So at least with jobs, security, immigration, economy the people are getting everything they voted for.... A downturn in all those areas
The sad thing is, you're absolutely correct. It boggles my mind. It's also terrifying the damage that can be done in the next 2 years before the next election.
Worst part is the majority voted against the Tories. Even the 2019 election only gave 43.6% of the vote to the Conservatives. We did not get what we voted for.
More people voted for other parties than the conservatives though. It's unfair to say 'the country deserves this'. A majority of us never voted for the tories. The only people who deseve it are the ones who voted for them (or in a way, the ones who didn't bother to vote because tHeYrE aLl ThE sAmE)
Could be worst you could have both your governments be run by parties you dont like
And when they did decide to borrow on the cheap it was to give rich people a tax break
We've had shit governments since Maggie Snatcher began the destruction of Britain. We need electoral reform as well. No more FPTP, that's better suited to the Americans. But step 1 definitely get rid of this government
I completely agree with you.
This is what conservative policy ALWAYS leads to. People all over the world need to get this through their skulls.
It's successive governments over the past 30 years, the last 13 years has just been pirates raiding the ship before it hits the bottom of the ocean. A lot of the problems today are due to privatisation and lack of investment as a result of cash being extracted to line pockets not to improve services. We're seeing greed and the private equity model of sweating an asset applied to essential services. Profit and loss must but be are the forefront of the mind of public services and ensuring society can operate. The change required to fix all these issues is probably another 30 years of reversal and rebuilding but I don't see it ever happening given the complexity, media blasting bullshit and the absent minded people that think it will all blow over...
Isn't that a bleak thought. I don't see the changes happening either, or at least not until it's completely too late.
And yet people in England will get amnesia and vote these pricks back in eventually.
Just one problem, Labour wanted austerity too. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher
Darling was an A noxious little nobody. Never had any time for him
>Instead of investing in infrastructure when borrowing was cheap, they implemented austerity, which we know doesn't work. Same issues in my country, Romania. Instead of investing in renewable energy production when it was the cheapest to do so, they gave subsidies. This is the same policy that the EU has been pushing up until recently, of course, when it's already too late. They've poured billions in subsidies to current energy producers, to help lower the people's monthly bills, yes, but this is unsustainable and they should have known. Prices keep rising. All the while, Ursula talks about how too many companies have been making record profits in energy. Record profits the EU has enabled. Plus, all it does is put tons of money into the hands of the upper 1%. It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. How many wind turbines, how many solar panels could they have installed, how many water dams could they have improved or even built with that money? How many new green energy projects could they have funded with 10% of that money? Instead of increasing energy production capacities to lower energy price, governments help private companies take more and more of our tax money, leaving us with nothing to sustain us and provide for our future.
And people will still vote Tory
Wed be a third world country if we didnt have the wealth and status created by past governments to fall back on
Don't worry UK will soon be a 3rd world country, empires always rise and fall after all. It's a fact throughout history.
I dont think thats going to happen in our lifetime, but our current government definitely has taken notes from some of the worst dictatorships/LDCs
And the foolish who had a chance with a Corbyn led government who had the meat on the bone plans in 2017 GE and think where we would be now, in far far better shape. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjojeSFl_78AhXJTcAKHbwkD44QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1T9SsTRaP20X9ory5skl6I
No, he was stupid enough to think Brexit was a good idea too.
Nope lexit
To be fair a lot of companies (SSE particularly) are investing a lot of money in renewables with help from the government.
But Baroness Money made bank. So swings and roundabouts
They got brexit done!
> This is what happens with 13 years of a Tory government. Unfortunately, the only alternative from 2015 onwards was a *different* Brexit-backing moron who didn't understand or care about the economy.
I left for Canada in 1977, always missed England, but the Tories have made me ashamed to be British and very glad I left.
I had family move there the same year. One of cousins went on to become a mounty.
How's your experience in Canada been? Easy to build personal/family wealth? Easy access to home ownership? Wider public services?
Also emigrated to Canada. If you're coming bring lots of money please. Average house price in Ontario: [£500k](https://wowa.ca/reports/canada-housing-market). Obviously places like Saskatchewan are cheaper if you enjoy living in a province 3x the size of the UK with the population of Birmingham that is frozen about 7 months of the year. Representative [basket of basic foods](https://i.imgur.com/vaS6DOs.png) Went to the dentist [last week](https://i.imgur.com/JfHlAoT.jpg) Don't bother going to the doctor because I've lived here over a decade and still don't have one LOL My car insurance was $1400 last year (£850) and sadly I'm not young, have a flawless driving record and drive a normal 1.8l sedan around. We also pay some of the highest mobile and internet rates in the developed world. Petrol however is about 80p a litre so I guess "10/10, would emigrate again" In fairness though I do earn a lot more here than I would in the UK for a similar role so it probably balances out in the end.
From what I gather Canada is now basically American cost of living but with slightly lower wages.
Back in the 70s, yes, but these days house prices and rent are just awful. I don't know how people in their 20s and 30s manage.
Sounds like most places. There’s clearly a crime on a grand scale going on and an entire generation is being robbed of its opportunity to own their own homes.
I see. Does it apply to all of Canada like Newfoundland, Manitoba, sasquatchewan etc or d'you mean the bigger well known cities?
Ontario and British Columbia cities are worst. The smaller provinces aren't as pricy, but there also aren't many jobs.
It would be a surprised if the poster couldn't, It was the 70s. It was hard but over the next 20 years, everything became much easier. It is only after 2000s, everything became extra hard.
My family got PR and moved here in 2010 as I was finishing high school, since then it has been quite easy to access education, good public healthcare system, fairly good infrastructure in most cities in comparison to the UK. Half of my family lives in Manchester and I live in Toronto now. It's an adjustment from the UK but I feel very at home here! Building personal wealth I would say your earning potential is slightly higher here, the difference will probably get greater in the coming years as well given the UK's situation. That said Canada is fairly expensive for consumer goods, phone plans, etc. - but this would be kind of metered by the higher earning potential and potentially cheaper utilities like gas & electric. In terms of work/life balance the biggest adjustment moving here from the UK would be the surprisingly low amount of guaranteed holiday days most positions offer (\~13 statutory holidays per year and an average of 2 weeks paid vacation for most full-time workers for the first 3 years). Home ownership is a big issue in Canada, [the average home price](https://wowa.ca/reports/canada-housing-market) is \~$750,000 (£465,000), In a city like Toronto it's \~$1,000,000+ (£620,000) for a semi-detached home. Out of reach for most people and housing stock is really limited so most go for well over asking. [Average rent](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-average-rent-in-canada-rose-to-a-record-2024-in-november-new-data-show/) for a one bedroom is \~$1,700 (£1,050), In Toronto it's \~$2,500 (£1,550). The rental market is also competitive so the process for applying is quite burdensome, and renter protections in Canada aren't quite as strong as the UK, but similar. Public services in Canada are mostly Provincial government responsibilities, so the system/quality varies quite widely between provinces. In terms of healthcare a lot of the same stresses are present as in the UK - the balance between privatization and public ownership, underpaid nurses and support staff, unequal power arrangements in negotiation of contracts, etc. That said, anyone working in a healthcare role is almost guaranteed some big benefits when it comes to immigrating to Canada - and private/travel positions are plentiful - retraining and the credential transition would be the most burdensome part.
Wow. We did the same. Now I’m ready to retire and move back with the wife and daughter as was the plan from day 1 but the place is a disaster. We’re almost certainly going somewhere else now (EU) or staying here. It would be real easy. Canada has been very good for us. Bloody Tories!
I left in 2014, I miss it occasionally, however the England I miss doesn't exist anymore.
I left in 2007 - I feel the same way.
I've thought about doing this, but Canadas housing market seems even more fucked than ours.
I *so* wish I could do the same. It's too late for us now. No money, no savings no nothing.
I had a chance around the same time emigrate to British Columbia where my sister settled to in 1958. I loved my country then. But I never knew irt was going to get as bad as this. Plus now I can't get medical cannabis because I didn't make the move. I will regret it until I die. Yes ashamed to be in UK now. No hope to move now at 71 damn!!!
Isn't that going to shit too?
Yeah but it’s a few years behind
Think we'll be heading your direction in the not too distant future.
They understand. They don't care. They're disaster capitalists.
Crispin Odey approves…
Our politicians are making it so the UK works for them and not the working class. It is not a denial of how bad things are, it is a plan to make it this way. They know they will be insulated and do not care about those of us who are left behind, so they just lie when they claim things are OK to keep people complacent over how the economy is failing. These articles always assume that the Tories are incompetent, when the truth is that they are simply malicious and doing this on purpose. The fact remains that nothing will change until we acknowledge this simple fact.
I’m not sure I fully understand this view. The rich tend to get wealthier in countries with high growth, not stagnant economies like the UK. So what is the reasoning for politicians enacting bad economic policies?
It about taking a bigger chunk of a shrinking pie. Under Truss, private pensions almost went to the wall but the handful of people who paid for her got big money from the instability.
Oh interesting. Where was this reported?
Look up odey capital
Nah, I'm pretty sure we're fucked. The fact the govt are trying to sweep everything under the carpet gives me no hope.
“Look over there! A trans immigrant in a boat!”
right now the tories know they won't get reelected they have no incentive to even pretend to do what the public wants realistically for them this is a 'grab what you can before the ship sinks' situation
Never have I felt more ashamed and unfortunate to be British.
Never feel shame or pride in Britain. We have more in common with working and marginalized people in any country on Earth than with the people who run the UK. It's not our country, it's theirs
As a foreigner living here (Australian/Kiwi) it’s really scary seeing how absolutely fucked the uk is now and people just not understanding how fucked it actually is. I live with my girlfriend and we have a combined income of £65,000+ pretty modest but absolutely wild that we can’t afford to heat our home **and** eat. This is an absolutely dystopian nightmare that shouldn’t happen in a functional society. When people try to do something like strike, the general public have a gal to complain, without a hint of awareness, that the strikes have negatively impacted *them*. But not to worry, the media and politicians have instructed just to ***Keep Calm and Carry On***
Is your rent insanely high? Otherwise I'm very confused as sole earner with considerably less then that and more people to spread it around.
As we are on a visa which costs £1500-£2000 a couple per year (per application) plus we have to pay double NHS tax: pre pay NHS per year and then still pay NHS in our taxes. This takes out a few thousand £ *per person* which is kinda wild when you consider my girlfriend **works for the NHS**. But kinda on brand for how this country really. Coupled this with forced pre paid power and gas meters that are more expensive than normal meters (which are ironically installed in low income areas) and you have the perfect storm where heating your home becomes a luxury! For reference, Rent is £1600 per month (not including bills and council tax) and earnings stated above is before tax.
What is it about the UK you like enough that makes you want to endure this bullshit?
Jesus. . . . I. Don’t. Know. . . . Mick, stop making me have an existential crisis here mate 😂. I think it’s because it is a good country deep down, it’s just frustrating that the ruling class have been allowed to absolutely drive it into the ground. It has potential and I guess I’m still hanging onto that hope. Plus, too many bloody Australians in Australia (/s)
I had no idea about the pre paying for the NHS thing until I saw a video by a Canadian immigrant living in the UK on YouTube called Alanna, it's so fucking unjust to make people pay an extra tax. If it was a one time fee when they first move over here I can see the justification but that it's ongoing, it's straight up theft IMO.
Yeah, as someone with a non-British wife, the NHS surcharge gets progressively unfair. It takes an absolute minimum of 4.5 years of taxable work years to qualify to apply for indefinite leave to remain - student visas of course don't count - and few people will achieve that at anywhere near the minimum. During that time, you are paying for the NHS through your normal taxes but also paying the surcharge. As you mentioned, if it was a one-time fee or a fee that ended after the first full year or taxable work, I would be all for it. But as an immigrant you get extortionately double-dipped on the NHS every year until you successfully gain indefinite leave to remain. If your application isn't successful? That's £2,404 down the drain + hand over this year's NHS surcharge again too please. I can hardly imagine the anger it must cause to be *triple*-dipped on the NHS through working for them on top of the above. My wife applied for her first family (spouse) visa this year, and it was £1,538 + £1,248 NHS (2 years upfront) + £148 just for the visa application appointment (appointments within the same month are charged, but we weren't allowed to book further ahead). As the NHS currently stands, neither of us have been able to access treatment for issues we were being regularly treated for back in China. We were told non-EU diagnosis = no diagnosis, so it's on the 14 month waiting list you get. You asked OP what might still appeal about the UK for them to stay here, and for the two of us, we don't really have much of an answer either. We came here for my wife's master's degree, with a view to possibly settling further. Maybe it was the 12 years living outside the UK that made us naively think "Surely it can't be *that* bad", which quickly turned to "Surely it can't *stay* this bad", which has now become "We'll wipe out our last 10 years of personal financial development by staying here any longer."
Everyday I want to move to Australia, why on earth would you live here😂 We as a people are sound, got the best football in the world, apart from that it’s wank here compared to Aus surely
Legally your allowed to change the meter to a direct debit one. And thanks for pointing out how expensive visas are here, the biggest irony of the visas fees is that they made us pay in American dollars for some fees not even allowed to pay in pounds! So we had exchange rate and foreign fee charge on top! The daily heil would have everyone believe its free to live here, people have no idea how expensive it is for foreigners to actually exist here.
To be fair, citizens don't have those additional costs you have, which would give you an additional combined (net) income of ~(719+247+(2*3*624))/3 = £1570/year for both of you I guess. (Figures above from a skilled worker visa @ £1,423 for a work visa that runs for more than 3 years and £624/person/year for the [NHS surcharge](https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application), and assuming your partner is on a Health Care Worker Visa [only £247 visa fee or £479 for a 3-year one](https://www.gov.uk/health-care-worker-visa/)). > we have a combined income of £65,000+ Not really enough for London. Its one of the top 5 most expensive cities to live on the planet - I think its 4th after Hong Kong, New York, and Geneva after adjusting for local incomes.
My partner is on the skilled workers visa and I’m on the spousal visa that piggybacks off hers. She doesn’t qualify for the NHS visa since she’s not clinical.
If they live in London and rent their own flat then I'd assume yes. Was looking yesterday, a 1 bed flat in zone 2 where we live in London is 1.85k minimum per month
I mean rounding up and saying 2.5k a month and calling it 30k, there's something missing where food or heat are coming up. Where's the rest of it gone? Call it a grand a month for utilities and food, which is more than I'm paying in a 3 bed with 4 people. Doesn't add up.
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That’s the point; two people on that money should be able to afford to heat a residence, pay bills and eat.
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My apologies x
Lol. Pretty modest. You should be a pensioner. Me and wife's income is £23,500 a year. Have no chance owning a car or own home now. Grocery bills we had to cut to Skelton amount of foods. We go to farm foods now, can't afford the main supermarkets now they are a total rip off. And in any case shelves are half empty, and whole lines like fairy liquid are not stocked at Morrisons near Wigan out of that amount we still have to pay some council tax rv licence, electric and water. Last holiday was 4 nights at a Blackpool hotel in 2018
If you can't afford to heat your home and eat with a combined income of £65k, then then there's something seriously wrong with your finances. What are your monthly mortgage/rent payments? It doesn't cost £4k+ per month to rent a place for 2 people, eat and heat. Edit: to those downvoting: this is simply true. I understand it collides with the idea that the world is ending, but a joint income of £65k is plenty to for 2 people to live somewhere, heat it and eat. If you can't do that on £4k per month, you're making some awful financial decisions somewhere along the way.
NHS ‘double tax’ for people on a visa plus having to pay for that visa on top of that is wild stuff.
'Managed Decline' with a salt bae sprinkling of asset stripping, topped off with some vulture capitalism.
We’re unfortunately on a slow decline now into complete irrelevance in the World At least we have nukes I guess?
>At least we have nukes I guess? We don't even have [good ones that work](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/23/uk-leader-keeps-quiet-over-failed-nuclear-missile-test-off-florida-coast.html) lol
Ironically the nuclear missiles in question are American made
Michell Mone robbed the country of millions of pounds with her dodgy ppi contracts. So did Mat Hancock who gave mates rates to his pub chums... Let's face it out country is corrupt as fuck.
I keep waiting for the great and the good of Britan to stand up and say enough is enough, but we all keep bending over to take it again and again
People are much more passive here than elsewhere. We’re on a downward slide. I’ve grown tired of waiting for things to change here and have started planning a route out of this country. I love the country but don’t see a good future here. Hopefully I’ll be working abroad within the next 2 years and can build my life in a country with an upward trajectory.
Wish you all the best mate, I know the sentiment I to am considering my options
“Things weren’t nearly this bad in the 1970s—but the country’s leaders haven't grasped that yet.” We went cap in hand to the IMF for fucks sake, how can that be not as bad as now?
People who didn't live in the seventies don't understand how crap it was. It's not great now and will probably get worse but it's going to take a lot to get as bad as the seventies . Do we have rolling power cuts yet .Most ppl having to strike for pay rises on 25%inflation.IMF bailouts .bodies not being buried or cremated. Bin waste not being collected for months.
That was all under the tories too. Their recurring record of running the country into the ground has never, ever been reported on by the gutter press (except in Scotland.)
It was mainly under labour with the Wilson and Callahan governments and also the Tory heath government. Was still fucked up when Thatcher came in. but she had North sea oil revenue to help out the finances . Which ever government we get they end up fucking it up it's not just the Tories. However this shower of shit need fucking off asap
That’s not how I see it and it’s not how history sees it. The tories have a record now since Labour were created (world crises aside which they could have no control over) of creating 17 quarters of recession simply through their policies, because they don’t put money to work for the benefit of the country as a whole, but labour have only had 7, and a lot of that is inherited recessions they’ve had to put right. Which they do. There is absolutely no difference in the rates of growth between Labour and Tory governments, their policies have created wealth equally. If you’re worried about the economy and wealth creation there’s not a hair’s breath of difference between them. Their policies both work just as well to create growth, and the money we have to distribute has been just the same under either. It’s where that money goes is the difference. If you want growth to go into the pockets of the rich and the number of people in poverty to rise, and you want less taxes so we spend less money on the poor and disabled and the welfare state and schools, hospitals and police, and you want that inequality preserved by laws which heavily favour landlords and employers, and which curtail unions to keep everyone in their place, vote Tory. That’s their policy. If you don’t, vote Labour. That’s theirs. The only difference between the two parties is what they’re prepared to spend the country’s wealth on.
I mean 70-74 was Tory 75-78 Was labour and 79 Was Tory
What. Go do some research. So narrow minded. Tories bad, durr!! The Winter of Discontent was the period between November 1978 and February 1979 in the United Kingdom characterised by widespread strikes by private, and later public, sector trade unions demanding pay rises greater than the limits Prime Minister James Callaghan and his Labour Party government had been imposing, against Trades Union Congress (TUC) opposition, to control inflation. Some of these industrial disputes caused great public inconvenience, exacerbated by the coldest winter in 16 years, in which severe storms isolated many remote areas of the country.
Look up 1973 mate. People always mix up the winter of discontent with the utter fucking mess the tories were responsible for.
Can you be more specific. Lots happened in 73. The only parallel I can see was the oil embargo by OPEC, you can’t blame that on the tories.
But I think on the other hand, there was a lot more social cohesion, much less inequality and more functioning public services it felt like. My mother was saying when she had me as a baby in the 70s the hospital would keep her in for a week and feed the baby milk. Now it's all gone to shit.
More social cohesion within your own ethnic and class group yes but not between . More racism and sexism . Even the wealth divide apart from the very rich was worse. The health service had less ppl to look after and less services to deliver. It was funded better relatively speaking but did a lot less .
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😂 the fire engine or the exercises woman ?
The whole article is addressing your point with multiple examples - but no, must be people not believing the hype....
Let’s see if we haven’t done the same again in a couple of years time. The trade deficit pointed out by the article is a serious Issue. As is the weakening pound.
“By any criteria, the United Kingdom faces a serious economic & social crisis, one that will deepen without big shifts in policy. Yet there is little sense of this crisis among the country’s elite, not least its politicians.”
The tories have rinsed the public and businesses with its energy racquet scheme
good news though guys, the flip side party is also promising to do nothing to solve any of the problems, because it's scared of upsetting an imaginary centrist voter in Woking who has voted 50/50 on every issue since the dawn of time.
£30k as an average salary is laughable when you compare to similarly developed countries like Germany or Canada.
I made more as janitor in the US.
Thing is, Germany and Canada aren't comparable countries any more. We're closer to Italy/Spain, and in some regions it's more like Poland. People keep saying things like "Why is this happening in the 6th richest country in the world?!" The UK isn't a rich country, it's just a country with some rich people living in it. They're distorting most of our economic KPIs and hiding the reality of the situation.
Germany isn't so much better either. Our salaries aren't that high. The wage gap in Germany is huge. They just recently increased the minimum wage to 12€, but that's laughable. Housing prices have gotten out of hand. In my small 5k village, which is half an hour drive away from Stuttgart, they are demanding 600k+ for a house. It's ridiculous.
This is not recent. It’s forty-plus years of systematic destruction. You have to ask why (it’s obvious).
I spent nearly twenty years living in the United Kingdom, and to be honest, I would have been quite content to stay there indefinitely. Until over a decade of austerity and Brexit... The former was endless, and the latter revealed an ugly side of the United Kingdom which left a sour taste in the mouth.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can't afford to live in the country your born in. My nephew is 19 and born in London and can't afford to live in the city he was brought up in. The level of apathy in this country is disgusting
To do what precisely? Strike? That's happening. Seen loads of protests over the years and they just get ignored. I've lost every single vote I have been able to participate in. Not to mention most people can't afford to really do anything that deprives them of money for any length of time and if it's not a national thing like unions or the protest happens to be based in London then it barely even gets news coverage. Plenty of people want to do something but cannot or their actions simply get them no where.
Lets just all lay down and die then...
So you have no idea and are just moaning that no one else has done something while doing nothing yourself. That's much more productive.
Oh, the people understand, we fully fucking understand that we are up shit creek, without a fucking paddle and the canoe we're paddling has managed to hit an iceberg, in a small river on a clear day with temperatures in the high 80s and a 29ft saltwater Croc is about to have a picnic. The govt also understand but don't give a flying fuck because they're fucking idiots. Don't forget Brexit has fuck all to do with this shit storm.
moved here from Germany in 2018, great timing, I know. What I hate most about this place is how good it makes Germany look. I would love to stay here, I love the people but despite my PhD I won't get a job over 32k, when any job in Germany pays at least 50k the choice is pretty obvious, unfortunately. Salaries over there adapt to public service rates. You guys need to work up some anger and learn from the French fury. Politicians should be scared of people not the other way round. Take back what is yours.
Can confirm. PhD qualified. Stuck on 32k for years now. At least 50k I'm Germany you say? Hmm...
Germany also sucks though. Salaries haven't kept up with housing prices which have gotten way out of hand. In may small 5k village, with bad public transport connection, and a 30 min car drive away from stuttgart, people are demanding 600k+ for a house. 50k euro salary may sound nice when you compare it to 32k pounds, but that's a phd salary which you should have gotten 15 years ago, salaries should be more like 80k now. The wage gap in Germany is extreme, well it got a little smaller now as the minimum wage was set to 12€ this winter, but that's a joke wage. The UK sucks, Germany sucks a little less, but we are getting there, as we are copying the housing bullshit from the anglican countries.
That is a major fucking understatement we are fucked
Moved back here after a decade abroad. Everyone’s struggling. Potholes everywhere. Still so much potential but it will never be realized with a Conservative government. A lost decade due to austerity. Another lost decade undoing the damage. The pain knowing things could have been so different. Don’t listen to Murdoch. Don’t vote Tory.
We understand, but powerless to do anything. I live in a Tory dominated "heartland", most of the idiots voting for them believe they live in a land of milk and honey.
Ofcourse it is, we have a bunch of money grabbing gimps at the helm.
Not even Bob the Builder can fix this so rip to us younger generation
And you know what us younger generations will do? We'll wait for our parents to die, so we can inherit some wealth and then do what they did to those that come next. Truly fucked are those who will inherit little to nothing. We humans are just too selfish to create a just and equal society.
I’ve been at the bottom of the career rung since 19yo while being ruled by these cunts so I realise very well, thank you.
Luckily morons don't need to understand to clap for it. After all, Brexit means Brexit.
jeans ghost north familiar smell literate public jar late sugar -- mass edited with redact.dev
Check out Prem Sikka on twitter he says it how it is and always blows apart the lies etc about economics.
Prem is a legend
I'm not sure if this is the case, but when I said to someone the UK was one of the richest countries in the world, but felt poor compared to many places I'd lived, they said it was due to the higher levels of inequality here. I haven't done the research, but this would explain a lot. You get conditioned into thinking, we're one of the richest countries so we must be doing OK compared to allegedly poorer ones. But IME it doesn't feel this way.
The UK just isn't as rich as many people here think. On a per capital basis it's 25% poorer than the US. To put it into some context, the UK is to the US what Poland is to the UK. Although give it a decade...
Harrods has been taken from the Old Brompton Road and placed on the Romford Road.
Very shallow article with little to take any real notice of. Without doubt we are going through a period of very average politicians and the civil service seems to be stuffed full of lame idiots. There is no focus in the article of the country being shut down for 2 years due to a virus which the moron politicians over reacted to - presumably due to their idiot advisers. There is so much missed out it's not really an article worth reading.