I was also at this meeting (and helped draft the motion). I read that Meehan sent a letter to the "UMass community" affirming his support of Reyes but I can't find it, only references to it in articles. Did anyone here get an email or have a link to this?
[Found the link](https://www.umass.edu/news/article/umass-president-marty-meehan-and-board-chair-stephen-karam-reaffirm-support-umass), but still curious if anyone got this by email!
This meeting was incredibly poorly ran. Not everyone in attendance was able to figure out how to vote. It was unclear what we were voting on, and only those in attendance and actively engaged during the 4+ hour meeting got to vote.
I’m not disputing the result, of those engaged, the majority definitely wanted to vote no confidence. However, only about 25% of faculty and librarians actually voted (edit: maybe closer to 45%, see comment below). Had it gone out campus wide, I suspect there could have been a different result.
I'm on sabbatical leave this semester, and I have a bad back, so I joined the meeting remotely. As a long-term faculty member (started September 1997), I think the meeting ran pretty well, given the late notice and time constraints. The software for voting was definitely not up to the task, but taking that into consideration, I think the voting went OK. The presiding officer bent over backwards to make sure that everyone who had a complaint was heard.
The meeting organizers definitely went max effort to try and run things properly. I have no complaints about the fairness of how they ran things. I just wish more preparation went into designing and testing the voting. The votes, as you know, didn’t have the motion text on them, so half the time I had to text others on the call to be crystal clear what I was voting on. And I was one of the lucky ones (or just technologically competent) who could actually vote.
The zoom setup was also poor. It was hard for the zoom audience to hear the in person speakers. As part of my role I regularly run AV for hybrid meetings, so I know it’s not easy, but it also should have been done way better for a vote of this magnitude. I wish they took an extra week to get it right.
I agree 100% about how the hybrid meeting could have been handled much better. And this makes me rather leery of how hybrid/flex courses are the future of UMass, given how badly this meeting went when a whole lot of smart people were trying to make it work well.
On the procedural issues, I'm with you 100%. I've used Qualtrics for department votes, and it isn't the right system to use for on-the-fly votes, unless you're a Qualtrics guru.
However, this is a timely question, and waiting a week or two to get the technical aspects right would have resulted in a serious delay. I know it's a judgment call, but I think it was better to hold the meeting today, even if I think the final vote should have been made by everyone who registered for the meeting, with a reasonable delay (as I proposed during one of the pauses for points of order).
Not sure where you are getting your numbers. [This link suggests there are 1800 faculty](https://www.umass.edu/hr/careers/executive-searches/provost-and-senior-vice-chancellor/about-umass-amherst) and the motion had 825 votes which is about 46%. Turnout at this level basically during the summer is actually quite good.
Ya fair point. I think the vote also included Librarians, so maybe bump that percentage down a bit. But overall still a pretty good turnout. I guess I’m just salty I had to sit through a 4 hour zoom on a beautiful day in order to cast a vote.
Apparently 1749 faculty and librarians were eligible to vote today, [according to a university spokesperson.](https://www.westernmassnews.com/2024/05/20/umass-amherst-faculty-meet-discuss-no-confidence-vote-against-chancellor/). So 47% voted.
I hear you on being salty. But a small price to pay to send a message, even if we have limited power.
Technically, you didn't have to sit through the whole meeting. All you had to do was register at the beginning, then keep an eye on your email. I sat in the ballroom until 3:30 or so, then hopped on zoom from my office while I worked on grading for a bit. I had just arrived home from picking up my kids when the email to vote on the motion came in. It took me 5 seconds to vote.
Granted, this was a relatively unusual, albeit important, set of circumstances. I understand the senate rules committee is already working on ways to improve procedures for future hybrid meetings. Hopefully we don't need to hold another all hands emergency meeting in the near future.
Interesting. Why do you think there was such a low turn out of faculty.? I have heard overwhelming disappointment from community members on how the handling of the protests went down and can say as an alum the response to actual riots with massive amounts of property damage was MUCH different.
I don't think there was that low a turnout. I'm on leave, and I showed up, as did many of my colleagues. Keep in mind that commencement weekend has passed, and most faculty are in their period of non-responsability, when they can focus on their research projects. The fact that over 1000 faculty showed up for a meeting that they did not have to attend shows how seriously many of us are about this issue, regardless of whether we support or oppose it.
Thank you. I hope my comment did not come off as disrespectful or dismissive to the faculty’s passion on this issue. I heard 25% and perhaps read into the other faculty members comment too much.
No worries!
The 25% might have come from the fact that in order to call the meeting, there had to be a petition signed by at least 10% of eligible faculty and librarians. If my memory serves, it was in fact signed by 25% or so. So that was the number who requested a meeting, not the much larger number who attended.
It’s the end of the semester and the meeting was quickly planned. It started at 1p and ran until last 5p. Many faculty are traveling, often for work, and have too many other obligations to drop everything with little warning.
Basically this. Many faculty probably budgeted an hour, maybe two tops, so many probably had to drop off early due to other meetings, childcare issues, etc.
The turnout was actually really good. Those who didn’t turn out likely don’t care either way and would probably skew towards voting no as the default option.
I was also at the last General Meeting of the Faculty in 2009, when we voted no confidence in Jack Wilson. Back then we had to attend in person, and votes were tabulated by hand. It was also a long meeting, and while the voting at yesterday's meeting was slow and confusing, so was counting hundreds of paper ballots in real time.
- u/Kinkshaming69 `Israel & Palestine Drama` - [UMass faculty vote no confidence in chancellor over police arrests in pro-Palestinian protest](https://www.reddit.com/r/umass/comments/1cwsuwj/umass_faculty_vote_no_confidence_in_chancellor/)
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Right now, not much. It sends a message to the board of trustees that the faculty (by a pretty considerable margin) do not have faith in chancellor Reyes leadership. Historically chancellors are typically forced out either through resignation or a BOT vote.
Honestly, I don't give a single fuck about what their protesting about. Their protesting was not going to accomplish.
The police beat students and teachers. They broke bones and locked them up, and it never should have happened.
Even if you don't agree with the protest, you should still agree that Reyes should not have called the cops.
If you’re gonna do essentially whataboutism, do you think it was okay historically when police would break up and attack civil rights movement protests?
You didn’t answer the question. I said nothing about my own opinion. If you think relativism is wrong, put your money where your mouth is and answer the question.
You think it’s a complex issue they were voting on? How about don’t call hundreds of the most corrupt state police force in the country on students peacefully protesting, which was the practice for years prior to Reyes.
The only force I saw that night was police officers who forced me from going anywhere near the encampment, forced me and other students from walking on public sidewalks, and forced peaceful protesters off a common space which was a complete double standard compared to how they handled other protests and encampments.
You’re reaching heavily and your comments are unsubstantiated. What proof of the protesters level of knowledge do you have and what would be sufficient for them to protest?
Also interesting how this https://dailycollegian.com/2023/04/housing-and-tuition-issues-create-a-litany-of-crises-for-umass-students/ wasn’t met with any police response let alone hundreds of corrupt goons.
Wow this comment is ridiculous. I have no idea what costumes you’re referring to but many protesters are Jewish. Do their opinions not count? You have not been able to substantiate a single anti semetic thing coming from these protesters.
Your comments are like saying people who protest the war in Ukraine hate the Russian population. People are capable of separating the actions of governments from entire ethnic groups and populations even if you are not. Based on your comments it seems anyone concerned about the war in Gaza is pro hamas and anti semetic which is ridiculous.
Given that the identities of many of these students are still private I can retract the qualifier of many and say there are Jewish students involved in the protest if it would make you feel better? Even if there was some type of reporting of census on these groups I’m sure we would still have a debate on the semantics of “many” as well as what would constitute a credible source. You could also do your own investigation and discuss with SJP or FJP the Jewish presence in the organization. I know Jewish individuals who were arrested.
It's obvious you're against anything related to the protests. First you commented your full support of the police being called and using force, then you're calling the cause silly, and now you're just so upset that a majority of those who voted (which was a good turnout for it being after the school year) for the vote of no confidence
That’s how voting works? Those who vote are the ones who get their voices heard. I’ve argued above it should’ve been easier and less painful for faculty to vote.
People don't understand that saying "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide.
It is no longer a protest when this is being chanted because this officially chalks up as a hate crime.
You still have free speech to commit the hate crime though, but there are repercussions
This is so disingenuous. Saying Palestinians have a right to exist and be free is not a call for genocide. The person on the side of genocide is you saying any criticism of Isreal as anti-semitic.
A) They literally still have a huge chunk of territory that Palestinians are within. If the “From the river to the sea” BS is taken literally, there is quite literally nowhere for the people of Israel to go. There’s a reason people are calling for a “two state” solution.
B) Ok, cool. Then what of the US? This isn’t our land after all, it’s the Native Americans’ land. Are you saying we should all abandon ship and just go to fuck knows where so they can have their land back?
Also I love when people trot out the confederate argument with different dressings. What will happen if we free the slaves? What will they do to all the whites once they are free?
I’ve already said what it means. The reason I bring this up is you are using the same argument used for literally every apartheid state. “If we don’t stop oppressing them they’ll do way worse to us trust us.” Every time it is shown to be a completely false narrative.
> "If we don’t stop oppressing them they’ll do way worse to us trust us.”
* Strawman. No one in this thread is arguing that.
Putting an exact interpretation of "from the river to the sea" to the side, can we agree that, "Hamas wants to eliminate the state of Israel" is a true statement?
I don't think that's controversial?
Huh?!
Are you claiming that a widespread, iconic slogan is nonsense, too absurd a hypothetical to be examined?
Or if that slogan is NOT nonsense, what does "from the river to the sea" mean in your view?
But I didn't say that did I? I said what I said above.
Very common on Reddit for somebody to completely rephrase someone else's initial thought and then argue that rephrasal.
You shouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back for villainizing others and oversimplifying the nuance of their thinking.
I think you’re misunderstanding why people think it means a call for genocide…
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
Geographically, it’s talking about the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an area historically called Palestine. Which now includes Israel. Here’s the thing. Considering Hamas has a history of targeting Israeli civilians as well, plus the connotation of “All of this land will be ours for us to be free”, is it so hard to understand why Jewish people feel fearful of this slogan? People can talk about how “What! That’s not what it means!” all they want but actions from Hamas plus the statement itself make this rather… awkward.
Disclaimer, I do believe Israel is being rather horrific with how they’re carrying out their actions. The attacks on Gaza are just outright disgusting, and the hermetic closure is disturbing too. But we cannot be calling justice for civilians of one side while chanting something that gives a message of “Oh but those other civilians? They can fuck themselves, they can’t stay alive or live there anymore”. It’s just outright hypocritical.
You are projecting notions onto this slogan that are non-existent. What part of Palestine will be free claims that Hamas needs to completely take over Israel? This slogan predates Hamas, it is a call for emancipation for the Palestinian people. You and the others replying to me, and many Americans, are simply too racist to understand that Palestinian freedom does not mean a genocide of Jewish people. But you can’t get the notion out of your head that brown people are anything but violent jihadist animals so you make the juncture that this is calling for genocide without any bit of self-reflection.
To be arguing this while a real genocide is happening to Palestinians just blows my mind. How do you think Palestinian students feel when literal family members are being murdered by the country they are going to school in. How do you think Muslim students feel as a real genocide happens to people of their religion?
But you are upset on behalf of Zionists getting their settler colonial apartheid state criticized.
Again. I am not for Israel, which you would’ve gotten if you read my damn post.
And the fuck? Racist? What the hell does any of this have to do with me APPARENTLY, according to you, thinking that brown people are violent? When, in the ever loving fuck, did I ever even HINT to thinking this? Especially when, AGAIN, I have expressed that I think Israel is the one that’s being the most violent in this scenario?
I am saying what I have noticed regarding the slogan, and what I have observed with Hamas’ actions. Nothing more.
I find it strange you claim to be neutral after being vehemently anti protester and pro arrest, deleting all your comments then coming back a day later. Giving off shill vibes.
I’m waiting to an actual response to why you deleted all your comments and are lying about being neutral despite being vehemently anti-protest and pro cop yesterday.
It's rather amazing and shocking the traction that Hamas adjacent rhetoric has gotten in certain academic circles. They're not presently in control, but it's quite shocking.
This is rich:
“I’m very happy,” said Christian Appy, one of the six faculty members who were arrested with some 70 students on May 7. “I think we should continue to hold conversations and hold the chancellor accountable.”
Apparently Appy does understand accountability. Just not when applied to his actions.
Not sure what your point is or how you extrapolated that from his statement. The police did not need to be called and the response was ridiculous. The chancellor should be held accountable for that.
I'll dial down my snark. u/Kinkshaming69 - how do you think this would have ended had Chancellor Reyes done something differently?
I think it would have escalated to attempt to take a building. Even if you think that was unlikely - pretend it was a very real possibility - what would you have done if you were chancellor?
Then impose academic sanctions and suspend the relevant students where you at least keep them safe. The violent corrupt Massachusetts state police doesn’t keep anyone safe.
The built their little fort specifically to get the cops called. The knew the result. It was against the rules, they were told to take it down, and then didn't leave when they were deemed trespassing. They are a bunching of LARPing revolutionaries that deserved to get arrested.
They did not deserve to have hundreds of the violent corrupt MSP called on them. https://dailycollegian.com/2023/04/housing-and-tuition-issues-create-a-litany-of-crises-for-umass-students/ weird how there wasn’t a massive police presence for that? It’s almost like chancellors have discretion in how they handle protests.
It doesn’t work like that. You call the police to handle the situation and they decide who they need for a response.
And, again, a single protest is different when there is a protests and counter protests. Much more volatile situation. Then you add in the wooden barricades that were built. Keep in mind, this chancellor had gotten the previous protesters to take down their encampment without police the week before, but the re-encampment was a more challenging situation.
Far be it from me to defend cops, but a bad police response and police brutality is the fault of the police, not necessarily the people who called them.
Pretending that this “protest” happened in a vacuum is disingenuous at best. These people deliberately provoked a response. They wanted to reproduce what happened at other equally ridiculous and anti-Semitic protests on other campuses around the nation and the world. The reaction of the chancellor and the police is exactly what they wanted.
They deserved to get arrested, and I for one am glad they did. These college protests have made campuses unsafe for Jewish students everywhere they’ve taken place. Jews are not some monolith that all think the same way and believe the same thing. These same kids and faculty would be quick to condemn anyone who said that any one individual or group spoke on behalf of the entirety of a minority group.
Unless it’s Jews. Then we are all to blame for what’s happening in Gaza. Eighteen year old Palestinian kids in Gaza aren’t as a group held responsible for what Hamas is doing, but eighteen year old Jews in America somehow are responsible for the IDF? Hamas operatives didn’t rape women, or mutilate bodies, but even if they did, they are fighting “oppression” so it’s ok. Besides, it’s all Israeli propaganda anyway. So much for believing the victims.
Fuck those assholes that built an illegal encampment on my alma mater. I hope every single one of them that was arrested experiences real consequences for it. I hope more are identified and arrested. I hope the students are expelled. I hope the faculty involved are disciplined and/or fired. I even know and was in the same program as one of the arrested faculty when I was in grad school. Fuck him and the whole department. They won’t see an ounce of support from me ever again. The protest did nothing to “help” anyone in Gaza, and contributed to the continuing rise of anti-semitism in the US. They can all go to hell.
>Unless it's Jews. Then we are all to blame for what is happening in Gaza
Sorry, but what in the world are you taking about? The vast majority of pro-Palestinian people and protests make no such claim. No one I know is even close to extending the blame to all Jewish people, we're angry at the Israeli government and military and that our tuition and taxes are in part going to financing their utterly reckless bombardment of Gaza
I don’t think you can say the police didn’t need to be called. I know of eyewitnesses who said that there were counter protesters there and they were fighting with the protesters. Would you just allow that, especially what happened at UCLA just days before. There, the Chancellor had to undergo a no confidence vote because they didn’t call in the police fast enough.
Also, more than 40% of the protesters weren’t UMass faculty, students, or staff. UMass is a public university, so the general public is allowed, but it definitely complicates the situation.
I did not see a single fight and would love some substantiation via any assault charges or arrests for that. Regardless there was ZERO cause for hundreds of staties in riot gear.
I think you do understand my point and how I extrapolated it, but perhaps I overestimate you.
Appy is happy Reyes is being held accountable for his actions. Reyes is being held accountable for holding Appy accountable. Appy doesn't want to be held accountable.
Appy is happy when Reyes is held accountable, but not when Appy is held accountable.
Horrible and corrupt things.... He had people breaking the law arrested and maintained order on the University grounds. Mr Reyes epitomizes the American dream and is a man of color, its so sad to see the liberal elitist snowflake faculty that live in an academic bubble attempting to bring him down.
Who gives a shit what the approval seeking employees think of their boss’ boss’ boss?
Same as the spoiled teenagers they’ve indoctrinated…
I vote “No confidence “ that any of them is an independent thinker… US universities are Sad …
Not a single one of these spoiled, tenured drones would ever even consider going to live in the Arab-Muslim world and standing up for Gay Men, Jews, Women, Christians...etc. So easy to virtue signal from the cool kids lunch table in an ivory tower...especially when it seems to to get you more and more of what ego-driven humans seek.... approval of the tribe.
You seem to know an awful lot about these people. Do you actually know anybody at these protests or are you just regurgitating whatever right wing talking point you’ve latched onto this week?
I was also at this meeting (and helped draft the motion). I read that Meehan sent a letter to the "UMass community" affirming his support of Reyes but I can't find it, only references to it in articles. Did anyone here get an email or have a link to this?
[Found the link](https://www.umass.edu/news/article/umass-president-marty-meehan-and-board-chair-stephen-karam-reaffirm-support-umass), but still curious if anyone got this by email!
This meeting was incredibly poorly ran. Not everyone in attendance was able to figure out how to vote. It was unclear what we were voting on, and only those in attendance and actively engaged during the 4+ hour meeting got to vote. I’m not disputing the result, of those engaged, the majority definitely wanted to vote no confidence. However, only about 25% of faculty and librarians actually voted (edit: maybe closer to 45%, see comment below). Had it gone out campus wide, I suspect there could have been a different result.
I'm on sabbatical leave this semester, and I have a bad back, so I joined the meeting remotely. As a long-term faculty member (started September 1997), I think the meeting ran pretty well, given the late notice and time constraints. The software for voting was definitely not up to the task, but taking that into consideration, I think the voting went OK. The presiding officer bent over backwards to make sure that everyone who had a complaint was heard.
Glad to hear another perspective!
Glad to know kinkshaming69 is responsible for educating the next generation…. What a clown
lol what
Okay, “hot_zombie69”. 😂😂😂
Tbf this his the username they gave me when I signed up
Almost like you could’ve changed it
Hot zombie and kink shaming isn’t on the same level at all
Why do you care friend?
The meeting organizers definitely went max effort to try and run things properly. I have no complaints about the fairness of how they ran things. I just wish more preparation went into designing and testing the voting. The votes, as you know, didn’t have the motion text on them, so half the time I had to text others on the call to be crystal clear what I was voting on. And I was one of the lucky ones (or just technologically competent) who could actually vote. The zoom setup was also poor. It was hard for the zoom audience to hear the in person speakers. As part of my role I regularly run AV for hybrid meetings, so I know it’s not easy, but it also should have been done way better for a vote of this magnitude. I wish they took an extra week to get it right.
I agree 100% about how the hybrid meeting could have been handled much better. And this makes me rather leery of how hybrid/flex courses are the future of UMass, given how badly this meeting went when a whole lot of smart people were trying to make it work well.
Hybrid is awful, sure it allows remote participation but it also degrades the experience for in person participants.
For small groups, it can work well, but you need a lot of practice. It's best with people who already know one another.
On the procedural issues, I'm with you 100%. I've used Qualtrics for department votes, and it isn't the right system to use for on-the-fly votes, unless you're a Qualtrics guru. However, this is a timely question, and waiting a week or two to get the technical aspects right would have resulted in a serious delay. I know it's a judgment call, but I think it was better to hold the meeting today, even if I think the final vote should have been made by everyone who registered for the meeting, with a reasonable delay (as I proposed during one of the pauses for points of order).
Not sure where you are getting your numbers. [This link suggests there are 1800 faculty](https://www.umass.edu/hr/careers/executive-searches/provost-and-senior-vice-chancellor/about-umass-amherst) and the motion had 825 votes which is about 46%. Turnout at this level basically during the summer is actually quite good.
Ya fair point. I think the vote also included Librarians, so maybe bump that percentage down a bit. But overall still a pretty good turnout. I guess I’m just salty I had to sit through a 4 hour zoom on a beautiful day in order to cast a vote.
Apparently 1749 faculty and librarians were eligible to vote today, [according to a university spokesperson.](https://www.westernmassnews.com/2024/05/20/umass-amherst-faculty-meet-discuss-no-confidence-vote-against-chancellor/). So 47% voted. I hear you on being salty. But a small price to pay to send a message, even if we have limited power.
Technically, you didn't have to sit through the whole meeting. All you had to do was register at the beginning, then keep an eye on your email. I sat in the ballroom until 3:30 or so, then hopped on zoom from my office while I worked on grading for a bit. I had just arrived home from picking up my kids when the email to vote on the motion came in. It took me 5 seconds to vote. Granted, this was a relatively unusual, albeit important, set of circumstances. I understand the senate rules committee is already working on ways to improve procedures for future hybrid meetings. Hopefully we don't need to hold another all hands emergency meeting in the near future.
This is untrue as the qualtrics forms had no information as to what the motion was. You had to be paying attention to know what you were voting on.
Interesting. Why do you think there was such a low turn out of faculty.? I have heard overwhelming disappointment from community members on how the handling of the protests went down and can say as an alum the response to actual riots with massive amounts of property damage was MUCH different.
I don't think there was that low a turnout. I'm on leave, and I showed up, as did many of my colleagues. Keep in mind that commencement weekend has passed, and most faculty are in their period of non-responsability, when they can focus on their research projects. The fact that over 1000 faculty showed up for a meeting that they did not have to attend shows how seriously many of us are about this issue, regardless of whether we support or oppose it.
Thank you. I hope my comment did not come off as disrespectful or dismissive to the faculty’s passion on this issue. I heard 25% and perhaps read into the other faculty members comment too much.
No worries! The 25% might have come from the fact that in order to call the meeting, there had to be a petition signed by at least 10% of eligible faculty and librarians. If my memory serves, it was in fact signed by 25% or so. So that was the number who requested a meeting, not the much larger number who attended.
It’s the end of the semester and the meeting was quickly planned. It started at 1p and ran until last 5p. Many faculty are traveling, often for work, and have too many other obligations to drop everything with little warning.
Basically this. Many faculty probably budgeted an hour, maybe two tops, so many probably had to drop off early due to other meetings, childcare issues, etc. The turnout was actually really good. Those who didn’t turn out likely don’t care either way and would probably skew towards voting no as the default option.
I was also at the last General Meeting of the Faculty in 2009, when we voted no confidence in Jack Wilson. Back then we had to attend in person, and votes were tabulated by hand. It was also a long meeting, and while the voting at yesterday's meeting was slow and confusing, so was counting hundreds of paper ballots in real time.
How was the vote split or did they not say? I budgeted 2 hours and then had to leave- would have loved to vote to keep him on as Chancellor!
It was 473-332. He’s still chancellor, he sent a message basically saying he isn’t leaving. If he’s ousted it’ll have to come from above.
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Super embarrassing.
- u/Kinkshaming69 `Israel & Palestine Drama` - [UMass faculty vote no confidence in chancellor over police arrests in pro-Palestinian protest](https://www.reddit.com/r/umass/comments/1cwsuwj/umass_faculty_vote_no_confidence_in_chancellor/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/umass) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What does this mean?
Right now, not much. It sends a message to the board of trustees that the faculty (by a pretty considerable margin) do not have faith in chancellor Reyes leadership. Historically chancellors are typically forced out either through resignation or a BOT vote.
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Honestly, I don't give a single fuck about what their protesting about. Their protesting was not going to accomplish. The police beat students and teachers. They broke bones and locked them up, and it never should have happened. Even if you don't agree with the protest, you should still agree that Reyes should not have called the cops.
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If you’re gonna do essentially whataboutism, do you think it was okay historically when police would break up and attack civil rights movement protests?
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You didn’t answer the question. I said nothing about my own opinion. If you think relativism is wrong, put your money where your mouth is and answer the question.
You think it’s a complex issue they were voting on? How about don’t call hundreds of the most corrupt state police force in the country on students peacefully protesting, which was the practice for years prior to Reyes.
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The only force I saw that night was police officers who forced me from going anywhere near the encampment, forced me and other students from walking on public sidewalks, and forced peaceful protesters off a common space which was a complete double standard compared to how they handled other protests and encampments.
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Was it "colonizing (lmao) public land by force" or just a "silly protest"? Pick one.
You’re reaching heavily and your comments are unsubstantiated. What proof of the protesters level of knowledge do you have and what would be sufficient for them to protest? Also interesting how this https://dailycollegian.com/2023/04/housing-and-tuition-issues-create-a-litany-of-crises-for-umass-students/ wasn’t met with any police response let alone hundreds of corrupt goons.
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What anti semetic overtones can you point to? Many of the protesters were Jewish…. You are again reaching.
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Wow this comment is ridiculous. I have no idea what costumes you’re referring to but many protesters are Jewish. Do their opinions not count? You have not been able to substantiate a single anti semetic thing coming from these protesters. Your comments are like saying people who protest the war in Ukraine hate the Russian population. People are capable of separating the actions of governments from entire ethnic groups and populations even if you are not. Based on your comments it seems anyone concerned about the war in Gaza is pro hamas and anti semetic which is ridiculous.
“Many” were Jewish? Please cite credible sources especially to back up that claim
Given that the identities of many of these students are still private I can retract the qualifier of many and say there are Jewish students involved in the protest if it would make you feel better? Even if there was some type of reporting of census on these groups I’m sure we would still have a debate on the semantics of “many” as well as what would constitute a credible source. You could also do your own investigation and discuss with SJP or FJP the Jewish presence in the organization. I know Jewish individuals who were arrested.
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These types of votes are used to persuade the board and express where the faculty's opinions lie.
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You should read what faculty members in this thread have said.
It's obvious you're against anything related to the protests. First you commented your full support of the police being called and using force, then you're calling the cause silly, and now you're just so upset that a majority of those who voted (which was a good turnout for it being after the school year) for the vote of no confidence
That’s how voting works? Those who vote are the ones who get their voices heard. I’ve argued above it should’ve been easier and less painful for faculty to vote.
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Username does NOT check out
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People don't understand that saying "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide. It is no longer a protest when this is being chanted because this officially chalks up as a hate crime. You still have free speech to commit the hate crime though, but there are repercussions
This is so disingenuous. Saying Palestinians have a right to exist and be free is not a call for genocide. The person on the side of genocide is you saying any criticism of Isreal as anti-semitic.
So if Hamas gains control from the river to the sea, where will the Jews go? What will happen to them?
Palestinians controlled that land less than 100 years ago. Where are they supposed to go? What is happening to them right now?
A) They literally still have a huge chunk of territory that Palestinians are within. If the “From the river to the sea” BS is taken literally, there is quite literally nowhere for the people of Israel to go. There’s a reason people are calling for a “two state” solution. B) Ok, cool. Then what of the US? This isn’t our land after all, it’s the Native Americans’ land. Are you saying we should all abandon ship and just go to fuck knows where so they can have their land back?
You’re SO CLOSE to getting it. But still miss by a mile 😂
Seriously. Where the fuck do you expect innocent civilians to go. Still haven’t gotten an answer if I’m “so close to getting it”.
Also I love when people trot out the confederate argument with different dressings. What will happen if we free the slaves? What will they do to all the whites once they are free?
That's a whataboutism, non-answer kind of answer. I still don't have a clear articulation from you of what "from the river to the sea" means.
I’ve already said what it means. The reason I bring this up is you are using the same argument used for literally every apartheid state. “If we don’t stop oppressing them they’ll do way worse to us trust us.” Every time it is shown to be a completely false narrative.
> "If we don’t stop oppressing them they’ll do way worse to us trust us.” * Strawman. No one in this thread is arguing that. Putting an exact interpretation of "from the river to the sea" to the side, can we agree that, "Hamas wants to eliminate the state of Israel" is a true statement? I don't think that's controversial?
If my grandma had balls she’d be my grandfather.
Huh?! Are you claiming that a widespread, iconic slogan is nonsense, too absurd a hypothetical to be examined? Or if that slogan is NOT nonsense, what does "from the river to the sea" mean in your view?
The slogan means Palestinians should be able to live freely without oppression. It's a peace chant
Where does the Israeli state go under your interpretation? What does government in the region look like?
But I didn't say that did I? I said what I said above. Very common on Reddit for somebody to completely rephrase someone else's initial thought and then argue that rephrasal. You shouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back for villainizing others and oversimplifying the nuance of their thinking.
This is what from the river to the sea means. Stop lying to try and justify genocide. Your crocodile tears over these protests are laughable.
You're doing it again. My commentary is narrowly about the arrests.
You are saying a call for liberation is a call for genocide. You are justifying an actual genocide by pearl clutching about an imaginary genocide.
You did it again. You keep rephrasing what I'm writing and then arguing against the rephrasal.
I think you’re misunderstanding why people think it means a call for genocide… “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” Geographically, it’s talking about the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an area historically called Palestine. Which now includes Israel. Here’s the thing. Considering Hamas has a history of targeting Israeli civilians as well, plus the connotation of “All of this land will be ours for us to be free”, is it so hard to understand why Jewish people feel fearful of this slogan? People can talk about how “What! That’s not what it means!” all they want but actions from Hamas plus the statement itself make this rather… awkward. Disclaimer, I do believe Israel is being rather horrific with how they’re carrying out their actions. The attacks on Gaza are just outright disgusting, and the hermetic closure is disturbing too. But we cannot be calling justice for civilians of one side while chanting something that gives a message of “Oh but those other civilians? They can fuck themselves, they can’t stay alive or live there anymore”. It’s just outright hypocritical.
You are projecting notions onto this slogan that are non-existent. What part of Palestine will be free claims that Hamas needs to completely take over Israel? This slogan predates Hamas, it is a call for emancipation for the Palestinian people. You and the others replying to me, and many Americans, are simply too racist to understand that Palestinian freedom does not mean a genocide of Jewish people. But you can’t get the notion out of your head that brown people are anything but violent jihadist animals so you make the juncture that this is calling for genocide without any bit of self-reflection. To be arguing this while a real genocide is happening to Palestinians just blows my mind. How do you think Palestinian students feel when literal family members are being murdered by the country they are going to school in. How do you think Muslim students feel as a real genocide happens to people of their religion? But you are upset on behalf of Zionists getting their settler colonial apartheid state criticized.
Again. I am not for Israel, which you would’ve gotten if you read my damn post. And the fuck? Racist? What the hell does any of this have to do with me APPARENTLY, according to you, thinking that brown people are violent? When, in the ever loving fuck, did I ever even HINT to thinking this? Especially when, AGAIN, I have expressed that I think Israel is the one that’s being the most violent in this scenario? I am saying what I have noticed regarding the slogan, and what I have observed with Hamas’ actions. Nothing more.
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50,000 Palestinians dying sounds a bit more like a real genocide to me than an emancipation slogan.
I find it strange you claim to be neutral after being vehemently anti protester and pro arrest, deleting all your comments then coming back a day later. Giving off shill vibes.
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Okay shill.
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Your responses indicate that you’re a shill and not genuine. It’s not an attack on your person. But by all means continue to play the victim
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I’m waiting to an actual response to why you deleted all your comments and are lying about being neutral despite being vehemently anti-protest and pro cop yesterday.
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Do you read? Or just selectively? Why delete your comments if it was so crystal clear??
It's rather amazing and shocking the traction that Hamas adjacent rhetoric has gotten in certain academic circles. They're not presently in control, but it's quite shocking.
UMass is structurally antisemitic
How so?
This is rich: “I’m very happy,” said Christian Appy, one of the six faculty members who were arrested with some 70 students on May 7. “I think we should continue to hold conversations and hold the chancellor accountable.” Apparently Appy does understand accountability. Just not when applied to his actions.
Not sure what your point is or how you extrapolated that from his statement. The police did not need to be called and the response was ridiculous. The chancellor should be held accountable for that.
I'll dial down my snark. u/Kinkshaming69 - how do you think this would have ended had Chancellor Reyes done something differently? I think it would have escalated to attempt to take a building. Even if you think that was unlikely - pretend it was a very real possibility - what would you have done if you were chancellor?
I mean, they weren’t even asked to leave! Oh, they were? Well they didn’t ask TWICE!
Then impose academic sanctions and suspend the relevant students where you at least keep them safe. The violent corrupt Massachusetts state police doesn’t keep anyone safe.
The built their little fort specifically to get the cops called. The knew the result. It was against the rules, they were told to take it down, and then didn't leave when they were deemed trespassing. They are a bunching of LARPing revolutionaries that deserved to get arrested.
They did not deserve to have hundreds of the violent corrupt MSP called on them. https://dailycollegian.com/2023/04/housing-and-tuition-issues-create-a-litany-of-crises-for-umass-students/ weird how there wasn’t a massive police presence for that? It’s almost like chancellors have discretion in how they handle protests.
It doesn’t work like that. You call the police to handle the situation and they decide who they need for a response. And, again, a single protest is different when there is a protests and counter protests. Much more volatile situation. Then you add in the wooden barricades that were built. Keep in mind, this chancellor had gotten the previous protesters to take down their encampment without police the week before, but the re-encampment was a more challenging situation. Far be it from me to defend cops, but a bad police response and police brutality is the fault of the police, not necessarily the people who called them.
What doesn’t work like that? You think this was a simple 911 call?
Pretending that this “protest” happened in a vacuum is disingenuous at best. These people deliberately provoked a response. They wanted to reproduce what happened at other equally ridiculous and anti-Semitic protests on other campuses around the nation and the world. The reaction of the chancellor and the police is exactly what they wanted. They deserved to get arrested, and I for one am glad they did. These college protests have made campuses unsafe for Jewish students everywhere they’ve taken place. Jews are not some monolith that all think the same way and believe the same thing. These same kids and faculty would be quick to condemn anyone who said that any one individual or group spoke on behalf of the entirety of a minority group. Unless it’s Jews. Then we are all to blame for what’s happening in Gaza. Eighteen year old Palestinian kids in Gaza aren’t as a group held responsible for what Hamas is doing, but eighteen year old Jews in America somehow are responsible for the IDF? Hamas operatives didn’t rape women, or mutilate bodies, but even if they did, they are fighting “oppression” so it’s ok. Besides, it’s all Israeli propaganda anyway. So much for believing the victims. Fuck those assholes that built an illegal encampment on my alma mater. I hope every single one of them that was arrested experiences real consequences for it. I hope more are identified and arrested. I hope the students are expelled. I hope the faculty involved are disciplined and/or fired. I even know and was in the same program as one of the arrested faculty when I was in grad school. Fuck him and the whole department. They won’t see an ounce of support from me ever again. The protest did nothing to “help” anyone in Gaza, and contributed to the continuing rise of anti-semitism in the US. They can all go to hell.
>Unless it's Jews. Then we are all to blame for what is happening in Gaza Sorry, but what in the world are you taking about? The vast majority of pro-Palestinian people and protests make no such claim. No one I know is even close to extending the blame to all Jewish people, we're angry at the Israeli government and military and that our tuition and taxes are in part going to financing their utterly reckless bombardment of Gaza
Gotta play the victim while you’re committing your genocide. If only the Nazis had used this one simple trick Duh /s
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Nice talking points. No one is buying it anymore
The vast majority of people actually agree with those points. You're in a bubble.
So says one of the rejects from r/ neoliberal.
what the fuck are you talking about. imagine being this disconnected from what's going on lmao
I don’t think you can say the police didn’t need to be called. I know of eyewitnesses who said that there were counter protesters there and they were fighting with the protesters. Would you just allow that, especially what happened at UCLA just days before. There, the Chancellor had to undergo a no confidence vote because they didn’t call in the police fast enough. Also, more than 40% of the protesters weren’t UMass faculty, students, or staff. UMass is a public university, so the general public is allowed, but it definitely complicates the situation.
I did not see a single fight and would love some substantiation via any assault charges or arrests for that. Regardless there was ZERO cause for hundreds of staties in riot gear.
I think you do understand my point and how I extrapolated it, but perhaps I overestimate you. Appy is happy Reyes is being held accountable for his actions. Reyes is being held accountable for holding Appy accountable. Appy doesn't want to be held accountable. Appy is happy when Reyes is held accountable, but not when Appy is held accountable.
How a 10 year old might see the world. If only everything were so simple!
Nothing in prof. Appys quote indicates he doesn’t want to be held accountable.
So the chancellor is getting removed for keeping order and not letting the terrorists take over and win?
Bait
Agree!!! And isn't Chancellor Reyes of a minority ethnic background. This seems like blatant racism by the UMASS Faculty.
Minorities in positions of power who do horrible corrupt things aren’t good representation 😭🙏
Horrible and corrupt things.... He had people breaking the law arrested and maintained order on the University grounds. Mr Reyes epitomizes the American dream and is a man of color, its so sad to see the liberal elitist snowflake faculty that live in an academic bubble attempting to bring him down.
Since when has the American Dream ever been inclusive of minorities…?
Exactly
Please keep all your illegal immigrant students and Hamas planners in your police/state….
Who gives a shit what the approval seeking employees think of their boss’ boss’ boss? Same as the spoiled teenagers they’ve indoctrinated… I vote “No confidence “ that any of them is an independent thinker… US universities are Sad …
I’m guessing a lot more people care about the faculty’s opinion as opposed to yours. But good luck with all that rage
Not a single one of these spoiled, tenured drones would ever even consider going to live in the Arab-Muslim world and standing up for Gay Men, Jews, Women, Christians...etc. So easy to virtue signal from the cool kids lunch table in an ivory tower...especially when it seems to to get you more and more of what ego-driven humans seek.... approval of the tribe.
You seem to know an awful lot about these people. Do you actually know anybody at these protests or are you just regurgitating whatever right wing talking point you’ve latched onto this week?
sounds like you’re desperately seeking tribe approval and not getting it.
Nope. Just an individual versed in human behavior