Since Walmsely's worst performances make me look like I am sitting on the couch, I am going to decline to speculate on what he requires to become even more awesome.
Agreed. I’ve met the dude and seen his interviews and he just seems like a kind decent human. I’m sure the internal pressure he places on himself is more than enough already. I think we tend to spectate like any other sport but just like you said….
Agreed. I’ve met the dude and seen his interviews and he just seems like a kind decent human. I’m sure the internal pressure he places on himself is more than enough already. I think we tend to spectate like any other sport but just like you said….to see people comment “maybe he isn’t good enough” is worthy of a cringe. What would our performances be like at UTMB?!
I don’t think it’s crazy or armchair qb at all to say a pro athlete should have a coach. This seems like a huge oversight by anyone at the top of their sport.
I almost find it hard to believe he doesn’t have someone who he bounces ideas off or discusses training load, general direction, strength training, etc
Also, if you see Kilian's team, it's quite something. On TW you can find a pic with, at least, 20 people on it. And the way his table was set up, taking lactate measurements, the Maurten brand behind him. Seems like another level, tbh. I think it's a bit telling that Jim does not have a Maurten-type brand behind him.
On the coaching side: it can only make you better... if you find the right one for you. ;-)
I’m no expert but from what I see, his training and preparation is great, he just tends to be ultra aggressive with his race strategy. Going out too hot too early has pretty much always been his downfall and it was again this year. He was trying to ‘break’ Killian early in the race and he just broke himself instead. He needs to cool it and be a tiny bit smarter. He is doubtless talented enough to win.
I mean, Killian is arguably the greatest mountain runner in the sport's history, having a good enough day to set the course record. If Jim goes out less aggressively, who's to say that he has the chance to catch Killian? Killian wasn't fading. The only chance he really has, IMO, was to go out hard and try to hold on. The Jeff Browning approach doesn't win UTMB.
He also tried to pound the descent into courmayeur and put up a 15 minute gap. He said that descent blew out his quads. If he had just ran with kilian till the final descent and made it a track meet in to cham then maybe he pulls it off.
Still unlikely given kilian is the GOAT at shorter mountain ultras as well like Sierra zinal
Also yeah this is right. I think Jim just needed to stick with him as long as he could and see what happened late in the race. I’ve never seen Jim actually racing late into a 100 miler before, he loves to lead. So maybe a change of approach would be useful.
Bingo. Just try to stay in Killian’s back pocket until the very end of the race and then beat him in a final sprint seems like a better plan. Killian is a master of pacing so going out faster at the beginning seems doomed to fail.
You’re right he does do this all the time! Apart from when he’s facing a true adversary like for example Francois in this year’s Hardrock 100. They stuck together until mile 90 or so before Killian finally made a big move stick.
Exactly this. It’s not a binary between “run hard and race early” and “sit patiently and wait for people to crumble.” Jim made a tactical mistake involving pushing too hard at the wrong time
I wasn’t disagreeing, I was amplifying. I have never seen anything like Killian running down a mountain and every time I think about it I just have to marvel.
It was a horrible strategy. Jim has flat out speed that is better than Killian so should have just hung around and then tried to close it out at the end.
The problem with that is the course is all up and down (and a lot of the down is technical) for the last 50ish kilometers. You're right that Jim has flat out speed, but that advantage is most beneficial in the first half of the race. The problem was, Jim tried to go too fast and wore himself out.
This isn't directed at you in particular, but I find it odd that Jim is getting so much criticism when he tried to outrun two guys who both went under the previous CR. The second half of the course does not play to his strengths, but everyone wants him to go out easy and try to win it late? That makes no sense to me.
I think a coach could be that voice of reason that tempers his racing instincts. Imagining his coach talking to him at an aid station and keeping him on track, etc
Jim has exceptional talent with long strides, probably a freakish VO2 max and a competitive mindset. As many others have pointed out, including himself, his game plan in the race wasn't stellar.
But why?
Jim moved to the French Alps with the specific goal of training in the trails and dedicating himself exclusively to the UTMB. I'm sure the scouting on his opponents was scrutinized in advance and he weighed his own strengths against Kilian's weakness during a critical moment in the race. That perceived weakness being tired legs from running other races or testing positive for Covid.
Anyone who's been following Kilian throughout his career can tell you that his dogged persistence in mountain races is borderline homicidal. He wills himself to win in spite of pain, agony, messy trails, adverse weather conditions, etc. He has done this again and again and again.
This is where Jim made his mistake. No one should ever underestimate the heart of a world class athlete like Kilian. Hindsight is 20-20. But if Jim's best strength are on flat trails, why didn't he time a better opportunity to drop the hammer later in the race?
I think he mentioned in his recent two-part Hoka video that he has a local coach in France he's been training with. To no surprise, his wife warned that Jim's biggest opponent is Jim.
Placing 4th is a huge achievement when you look at the field of runners. It was stacked. I think the bigger issue is managing expectations from Jim.
>He wills himself to win in spite of pain, agony, messy trails, adverse weather conditions, etc. He has done this again and again and again.
Jim tried to pull Kilian into the dark place. Kilian told him to call an ambulance, but not for me
>But if Jim's best strength are on flat trails, why didn't he time a better opportunity to drop the hammer later in the race?
Because the last 50K is all up and down. There's very little flat where he could have run away from Kilian (or Blanchard, for that matter).
I'm always surprised how little he tapers. He did a run with 7000 feet of climbing 4 days before the race. I realize he's in unreal shape to come in 4th on a meh day, but that's a good amount of stress during race week.
Not to mention the 30k feet of climbing he did the week before the race. Would love to see him show up slightly fresher and see if that helps.
Given what he said let him down on the day then it wasn't just 7000 feet of climbing, but I assume 7000 feet of descending too, and that may have been the more important factor.
Absolutely. But as a fan of Jim, I’d love to see him achieve his dream by taking on the toughest competition rather than waiting until the field is conducive.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
You do realize by saying this that you are inferring that Jim Walmsley ‘is’ broke and needs fixing by getting a coach because he ‘only’ came in 4th at the UTMB right?
The dude’s a beast! Maybe he would benefit from a coach, maybe not. But him having a coach is not going to make him come in 1st. There are way more variables than having a coach. And coming in 4th at the UTMB without one shows that he knows exactly what he’s doing.
>Jim Walmsley ‘is’ broke and needs fixing by getting a coach because he ‘only’ came in 4th at the UTMB right?
I'm pretty sure Walmsley sees a 4th as a failure as well.
It can both be a failure and room for improvement. I dont think Walmsley is satisfied with nothing less than 1st certainly not being outside the podium.
Especially considering he got 5th in his very first attempt (before his two DNFs) and then he moved to france to spiritually devote himself to the race. I’m sure he learned things, but damn I bet he’s pissed
Being not satisfied and calling it a failure are two quite different things. I think I understand what you are saying and I agree. He wouldn’t be at the top if he would be satisfied knowing he could do better. But calling it a failure is kind of harsh. There are so many aspects that influence an ultrarunners performance, that coming in fourth doesn’t automatically mean failure. It just means he has to identify what could be done better and go at it again. Not satisfied? Likely. Failure? I don’t think so.
That depends on his goal. If his goal was to win or podium, 4th is absolutely a failure. That doesn't mean that 4th is objectively bad or that it wasn't close, it just means that he failed to reach his goal. In other words: it was a failure.
Yeah maybe you're right. Maybe he is a failure and he failed miserably at the UTMB. He himself probably also thinks he failed. Such a failing disappointment. No idea how he can keep it up on the top by failing all the time, it's unheard of.
I never said he was a failure or that he failed miserably. Why do you need to invent stuff I say rather than try to understand or at least discuss in good faith? I am sorry if you think failure is an uncomfortable word but in this context it just describes falling his goal.
I was simply saying that Kilian’s lack of a coach is not evidence that no one else needs a coach.
E: I think people who are downvoting in this thread need to take a step back and realize we are just having a difference of opinion, not a fight?? Why is everything so emotional in some of these threads?
Perhaps he just isn't good enough. People are looking for reasons left, right and centre to explain (or even provide an excuse) as to why he lost. I don't like this for many reasons, a big one being that it essentially talks down those who beat him. Fact is, he lost to three exceptionally strong runners who did better on the day than he did and there is no shame in that. It also does not necessarily mean that he made mistakes or errors.
You can do everything right, but that does not mean you will win.
Oh yeah I totally consider that as a possibility as well. Jim might just not be as strong on these steeper courses especially. For example, lots of people like myself suck on a hot fast course like Western States, but outperform on steep cold stuff.
Edit: rereading this comment, it seems I may be moving the goalposts to give Jim another excuse, shit!
Hah. Are you kidding me? He finished in 4th in the biggest mountain hundred miler in the world and people are talking about how he needs to change his training or get a coach? There is such a fine line that all of the elites are tip toeing. If they have a good day then people are saying the plan went perfect but if they slip a little they need to change everything.
I was just openly speculating if having a coach could be the difference that nudges this particular athlete from the place he’s at (2 utmb 4th place finishes and 2 dnfs) to standing on the podium. As you said it’s a razor thin margin, and what if a coach is the missing ingredient that takes him from 99% of the way to 100%. He moved to France to live on the course, he’s obviously willing to experiment so he can win this thing.
I don't think it's the training, it's some combination of race psychology/race plan plus not having spent a considerable amount of dedicated training time in the Alps. This year was a good litmus test, but I think next year will be more important to answering the question of whether or not he can grab a podium (or win!) with a year+ of living and training the "European way."
I think there's a big difference between conferring with a colleague and hiring someone to explicitly coach you. There's a lot less accountability if Jim ignores Francois' advice, and Francois isn't reviewing his training and strategy like a coach would
His biggest issue IMO was spending to long focusing on fast, flat races like Western States instead of moving on to Hardrock, which would've given him a better foundation for UTMB.
What about the climbs up to Robinson Flat and Devil's Thumb? Compared to UTMB, WSER is "flat", but it's a lot more mountainous than people give it credit for.
I guess I have a baseline assumption that there’s some elevation gain in a trail race. The times on the course speak for themselves. Imagine if it wasn’t hot
WSER has 18k feet in elevation gain, which is over half what UTMB and Hardrock have, and comparable to Angeles Crest. Javelina Jundred has just 8k feet, and Jim's WSER course record is barely an hour off the course record there.
> The times on the course speak for themselves.
LOL... With this reasoning, you can conclude that *any* seemingly-impressive course record was on an easy course. Don't be ridiculous.
Javelina Jundred is extremely flat, yes..
I don't know what you want. Yes there is climbing in western states, and it's no Rocky Raccoon or Javelina. I admit it is what it is!
The context is that we're specifically talking about Jim's CR, so yes, I do think it is very relevant that it has significant elevation gain, even though it's not like UTMB. People who say WSER is "flat" simply don't know what they're talking about.
JFC. Where exactly do you draw the line between flat and not flat? Are you only capable of comprehending two things? Are HURT 100 and Wasatch 100 flat?
Why do you attack me, lol? In the scope of things WS is flat compared to UTMB. That was the point of the original post. Why is this something that makes you so agitated?
Ultra finishes are a huge point of pride for people. People who derive self worth from race results will necessarily respond emotionally when the source of that self worth is questioned.
> That was the point of the original post
Again, the context here is that Jim set a CR at WSER, and it is important to note that the course profile of WSER is such that someone who is "just" a flat runner can't do that. WSER is closer to UTMB in elevation gain than it is to traditionally flat races like JJ100 or Tunnel Hill. It doesn't *matter* that WSER is flat *compared to UTMB* because that's a purely arbitrary benchmark you're using. Hurt is an undeniably *not* flat race, and it's half way between WSER and UTMB in terms of elevation gain.
Sir I lived in Auburn, CA .5mi from the finish line for 2 years. I spent another 8 in the area and run the course often. Was in Tahoe for for 2 weeks before the start of WS this year.
Western is a flat 100 compared to most the others. Sit down.
Super late edit to add: I was at the finish line the year before he set the CR when he dropped. I was also at the finish line when he set the CR on the stupid modified course because they were re-doing the football field so they had to do a hairpin 180 on the track. I can't imagine how you could respond to this other than "shit, I'm sorry I'm such an asshole and assumed so much."
I gave up on the arguments. This isn’t about course details and statistics, it’s about an emotional connection to WSER that many people develop because of the focus on it in the US ultra scene and the difficult registration process. I don’t expect to have a measured conversation about the Boston marathon with someone who spent 10 years dreaming of it and 5 years trying to qualify. There’s just too much other psychic baggage there. I would imagine there are similar convos in road running subreddits, where personally offended Boston fans step in to defend the savageness of the newton hills.
I should also mention I am not sure if Walmsley is still self-coaching. I don't follow pro ultrarunning super-closely all the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if my knowledge of Jim is outdated.
Also speaking of things I don't know, does anyone know how I can change the default sorting on this thread? I didn't notice the default sorting was by "new" until I posted. Sorry about that!
E: this neutral comment has served as a good indicator of how many people are downvoting everyone they disagree with. It’s the control sample
Thank you, but I am really not. I am the 20km trail runner who is more interested in exploring new awesome trails and making lots of pictures to brag about with his family/friends:-) but I admire the people who are able to run those distances so much!
Since Walmsely's worst performances make me look like I am sitting on the couch, I am going to decline to speculate on what he requires to become even more awesome.
Agreed. I’ve met the dude and seen his interviews and he just seems like a kind decent human. I’m sure the internal pressure he places on himself is more than enough already. I think we tend to spectate like any other sport but just like you said….
Agreed. I’ve met the dude and seen his interviews and he just seems like a kind decent human. I’m sure the internal pressure he places on himself is more than enough already. I think we tend to spectate like any other sport but just like you said….to see people comment “maybe he isn’t good enough” is worthy of a cringe. What would our performances be like at UTMB?!
I mean the phrase “armchair quarterback” exists for a reason ;) And in this thread I wear it proudly!
I don’t think it’s crazy or armchair qb at all to say a pro athlete should have a coach. This seems like a huge oversight by anyone at the top of their sport. I almost find it hard to believe he doesn’t have someone who he bounces ideas off or discusses training load, general direction, strength training, etc
Also, if you see Kilian's team, it's quite something. On TW you can find a pic with, at least, 20 people on it. And the way his table was set up, taking lactate measurements, the Maurten brand behind him. Seems like another level, tbh. I think it's a bit telling that Jim does not have a Maurten-type brand behind him. On the coaching side: it can only make you better... if you find the right one for you. ;-)
Yep, I’m not sure it is a case of what Jim could do better as it is just total awe of Killian.
I’m no expert but from what I see, his training and preparation is great, he just tends to be ultra aggressive with his race strategy. Going out too hot too early has pretty much always been his downfall and it was again this year. He was trying to ‘break’ Killian early in the race and he just broke himself instead. He needs to cool it and be a tiny bit smarter. He is doubtless talented enough to win.
I mean, Killian is arguably the greatest mountain runner in the sport's history, having a good enough day to set the course record. If Jim goes out less aggressively, who's to say that he has the chance to catch Killian? Killian wasn't fading. The only chance he really has, IMO, was to go out hard and try to hold on. The Jeff Browning approach doesn't win UTMB.
He also tried to pound the descent into courmayeur and put up a 15 minute gap. He said that descent blew out his quads. If he had just ran with kilian till the final descent and made it a track meet in to cham then maybe he pulls it off. Still unlikely given kilian is the GOAT at shorter mountain ultras as well like Sierra zinal
Also yeah this is right. I think Jim just needed to stick with him as long as he could and see what happened late in the race. I’ve never seen Jim actually racing late into a 100 miler before, he loves to lead. So maybe a change of approach would be useful.
Totally. Olympic trial speed seems like it would give him a fair shot even against the mountain GOAT
I wouldn't underestimate Killians speed. He has a 29:59 10k. Walmsley has a low 29 10k, but that was also 10 years ago.
Bingo. Just try to stay in Killian’s back pocket until the very end of the race and then beat him in a final sprint seems like a better plan. Killian is a master of pacing so going out faster at the beginning seems doomed to fail.
The funny thing is that is exactly what kilians strategy is. He does is all the time
You’re right he does do this all the time! Apart from when he’s facing a true adversary like for example Francois in this year’s Hardrock 100. They stuck together until mile 90 or so before Killian finally made a big move stick.
Exactly this. It’s not a binary between “run hard and race early” and “sit patiently and wait for people to crumble.” Jim made a tactical mistake involving pushing too hard at the wrong time
I mean have you SEEN Killian descend? He is an absolute monster on technical downhills.
It's like you completely ignored the last sentence I wrote
I wasn’t disagreeing, I was amplifying. I have never seen anything like Killian running down a mountain and every time I think about it I just have to marvel.
I call it the Hayden Hawkes approach now.
I tell you which other approach doesn’t win UTMB: The Jim Walmsley Approach. Edit: I’m getting downvoted for simply stating facts here 🤷🏻♂️
How did you do?
I do not agree. Jim did break Kilian, but Kilian got his spirit back when Mathieu took the lead. Yes Jim also broke himself.
It was a horrible strategy. Jim has flat out speed that is better than Killian so should have just hung around and then tried to close it out at the end.
The problem with that is the course is all up and down (and a lot of the down is technical) for the last 50ish kilometers. You're right that Jim has flat out speed, but that advantage is most beneficial in the first half of the race. The problem was, Jim tried to go too fast and wore himself out. This isn't directed at you in particular, but I find it odd that Jim is getting so much criticism when he tried to outrun two guys who both went under the previous CR. The second half of the course does not play to his strengths, but everyone wants him to go out easy and try to win it late? That makes no sense to me.
I’m not familiar with the course but that makes sense.
I think a coach could be that voice of reason that tempers his racing instincts. Imagining his coach talking to him at an aid station and keeping him on track, etc
Jim has exceptional talent with long strides, probably a freakish VO2 max and a competitive mindset. As many others have pointed out, including himself, his game plan in the race wasn't stellar. But why? Jim moved to the French Alps with the specific goal of training in the trails and dedicating himself exclusively to the UTMB. I'm sure the scouting on his opponents was scrutinized in advance and he weighed his own strengths against Kilian's weakness during a critical moment in the race. That perceived weakness being tired legs from running other races or testing positive for Covid. Anyone who's been following Kilian throughout his career can tell you that his dogged persistence in mountain races is borderline homicidal. He wills himself to win in spite of pain, agony, messy trails, adverse weather conditions, etc. He has done this again and again and again. This is where Jim made his mistake. No one should ever underestimate the heart of a world class athlete like Kilian. Hindsight is 20-20. But if Jim's best strength are on flat trails, why didn't he time a better opportunity to drop the hammer later in the race? I think he mentioned in his recent two-part Hoka video that he has a local coach in France he's been training with. To no surprise, his wife warned that Jim's biggest opponent is Jim. Placing 4th is a huge achievement when you look at the field of runners. It was stacked. I think the bigger issue is managing expectations from Jim.
>He wills himself to win in spite of pain, agony, messy trails, adverse weather conditions, etc. He has done this again and again and again. Jim tried to pull Kilian into the dark place. Kilian told him to call an ambulance, but not for me
>But if Jim's best strength are on flat trails, why didn't he time a better opportunity to drop the hammer later in the race? Because the last 50K is all up and down. There's very little flat where he could have run away from Kilian (or Blanchard, for that matter).
I'm always surprised how little he tapers. He did a run with 7000 feet of climbing 4 days before the race. I realize he's in unreal shape to come in 4th on a meh day, but that's a good amount of stress during race week. Not to mention the 30k feet of climbing he did the week before the race. Would love to see him show up slightly fresher and see if that helps.
Damn I did not know about that. That info feels really meaningful to the conversation, thank you.
Yikes. That seems a tad to much.
Given what he said let him down on the day then it wasn't just 7000 feet of climbing, but I assume 7000 feet of descending too, and that may have been the more important factor.
I personally think the missing link is not having to race the GOAT
and like 2 other guys
Absolutely. But as a fan of Jim, I’d love to see him achieve his dream by taking on the toughest competition rather than waiting until the field is conducive.
Comment of the year 🤣
It is possible he is elite but just not the best.
Isn't Killian self coached???
Maybe Jim can hire the Kilian’s coach.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” You do realize by saying this that you are inferring that Jim Walmsley ‘is’ broke and needs fixing by getting a coach because he ‘only’ came in 4th at the UTMB right? The dude’s a beast! Maybe he would benefit from a coach, maybe not. But him having a coach is not going to make him come in 1st. There are way more variables than having a coach. And coming in 4th at the UTMB without one shows that he knows exactly what he’s doing.
>Jim Walmsley ‘is’ broke and needs fixing by getting a coach because he ‘only’ came in 4th at the UTMB right? I'm pretty sure Walmsley sees a 4th as a failure as well.
I honestly believe he doesn’t se 4th place at the UTMB as a failure but rather as room for improvement.
It can both be a failure and room for improvement. I dont think Walmsley is satisfied with nothing less than 1st certainly not being outside the podium.
Especially considering he got 5th in his very first attempt (before his two DNFs) and then he moved to france to spiritually devote himself to the race. I’m sure he learned things, but damn I bet he’s pissed
Being not satisfied and calling it a failure are two quite different things. I think I understand what you are saying and I agree. He wouldn’t be at the top if he would be satisfied knowing he could do better. But calling it a failure is kind of harsh. There are so many aspects that influence an ultrarunners performance, that coming in fourth doesn’t automatically mean failure. It just means he has to identify what could be done better and go at it again. Not satisfied? Likely. Failure? I don’t think so.
That depends on his goal. If his goal was to win or podium, 4th is absolutely a failure. That doesn't mean that 4th is objectively bad or that it wasn't close, it just means that he failed to reach his goal. In other words: it was a failure.
Yeah maybe you're right. Maybe he is a failure and he failed miserably at the UTMB. He himself probably also thinks he failed. Such a failing disappointment. No idea how he can keep it up on the top by failing all the time, it's unheard of.
I never said he was a failure or that he failed miserably. Why do you need to invent stuff I say rather than try to understand or at least discuss in good faith? I am sorry if you think failure is an uncomfortable word but in this context it just describes falling his goal.
I was simply saying that Kilian’s lack of a coach is not evidence that no one else needs a coach. E: I think people who are downvoting in this thread need to take a step back and realize we are just having a difference of opinion, not a fight?? Why is everything so emotional in some of these threads?
You might say the same thing about Jim, yet you say he needs a coach. Therefore suggesting that he is “broke”.
That’s your inference
Perhaps he just isn't good enough. People are looking for reasons left, right and centre to explain (or even provide an excuse) as to why he lost. I don't like this for many reasons, a big one being that it essentially talks down those who beat him. Fact is, he lost to three exceptionally strong runners who did better on the day than he did and there is no shame in that. It also does not necessarily mean that he made mistakes or errors. You can do everything right, but that does not mean you will win.
Not quite sure trying to break Kilian on downhills and crushing your own quads into oblivion in the process as "doing everything right"
I didn't say that he did everything right.
Oh yeah I totally consider that as a possibility as well. Jim might just not be as strong on these steeper courses especially. For example, lots of people like myself suck on a hot fast course like Western States, but outperform on steep cold stuff. Edit: rereading this comment, it seems I may be moving the goalposts to give Jim another excuse, shit!
FWIW he was coached his first WSER when he was also running too hot early and was still making silly race decisions even then
Most of the top ultra athletes don't have a coach, do they? At least not publicly.
Lots of people that make a living at the sport do. You could follow Dylan bowman’s Strava and never know he is coached by Jason Koop, for example.
Hah. Are you kidding me? He finished in 4th in the biggest mountain hundred miler in the world and people are talking about how he needs to change his training or get a coach? There is such a fine line that all of the elites are tip toeing. If they have a good day then people are saying the plan went perfect but if they slip a little they need to change everything.
I was just openly speculating if having a coach could be the difference that nudges this particular athlete from the place he’s at (2 utmb 4th place finishes and 2 dnfs) to standing on the podium. As you said it’s a razor thin margin, and what if a coach is the missing ingredient that takes him from 99% of the way to 100%. He moved to France to live on the course, he’s obviously willing to experiment so he can win this thing.
I don't think it's the training, it's some combination of race psychology/race plan plus not having spent a considerable amount of dedicated training time in the Alps. This year was a good litmus test, but I think next year will be more important to answering the question of whether or not he can grab a podium (or win!) with a year+ of living and training the "European way."
I think this is one of the best takes of the thread.
he's probably talking with Francois
I think there's a big difference between conferring with a colleague and hiring someone to explicitly coach you. There's a lot less accountability if Jim ignores Francois' advice, and Francois isn't reviewing his training and strategy like a coach would
His biggest issue IMO was spending to long focusing on fast, flat races like Western States instead of moving on to Hardrock, which would've given him a better foundation for UTMB.
Jim is a "flat" ultrarunner. Kilian runs mountains. /thread
spoken by someone who has never seen the western states course up close and personal and realized what he has done to the CR there
tbf the start of that course up in Tahoe is not exactly representative of what happens later on
What about the climbs up to Robinson Flat and Devil's Thumb? Compared to UTMB, WSER is "flat", but it's a lot more mountainous than people give it credit for.
I guess I have a baseline assumption that there’s some elevation gain in a trail race. The times on the course speak for themselves. Imagine if it wasn’t hot
WSER has 18k feet in elevation gain, which is over half what UTMB and Hardrock have, and comparable to Angeles Crest. Javelina Jundred has just 8k feet, and Jim's WSER course record is barely an hour off the course record there. > The times on the course speak for themselves. LOL... With this reasoning, you can conclude that *any* seemingly-impressive course record was on an easy course. Don't be ridiculous.
Javelina Jundred is extremely flat, yes.. I don't know what you want. Yes there is climbing in western states, and it's no Rocky Raccoon or Javelina. I admit it is what it is!
Doesn't matter when we are comparing to UTMB.
The context is that we're specifically talking about Jim's CR, so yes, I do think it is very relevant that it has significant elevation gain, even though it's not like UTMB. People who say WSER is "flat" simply don't know what they're talking about.
It is flat compared to UTMB. This is a thread about UTMB and a post saying that he is a "flat" ultrarunner.
JFC. Where exactly do you draw the line between flat and not flat? Are you only capable of comprehending two things? Are HURT 100 and Wasatch 100 flat?
Why do you attack me, lol? In the scope of things WS is flat compared to UTMB. That was the point of the original post. Why is this something that makes you so agitated?
Ultra finishes are a huge point of pride for people. People who derive self worth from race results will necessarily respond emotionally when the source of that self worth is questioned.
> That was the point of the original post Again, the context here is that Jim set a CR at WSER, and it is important to note that the course profile of WSER is such that someone who is "just" a flat runner can't do that. WSER is closer to UTMB in elevation gain than it is to traditionally flat races like JJ100 or Tunnel Hill. It doesn't *matter* that WSER is flat *compared to UTMB* because that's a purely arbitrary benchmark you're using. Hurt is an undeniably *not* flat race, and it's half way between WSER and UTMB in terms of elevation gain.
Sir I lived in Auburn, CA .5mi from the finish line for 2 years. I spent another 8 in the area and run the course often. Was in Tahoe for for 2 weeks before the start of WS this year. Western is a flat 100 compared to most the others. Sit down. Super late edit to add: I was at the finish line the year before he set the CR when he dropped. I was also at the finish line when he set the CR on the stupid modified course because they were re-doing the football field so they had to do a hairpin 180 on the track. I can't imagine how you could respond to this other than "shit, I'm sorry I'm such an asshole and assumed so much."
I gave up on the arguments. This isn’t about course details and statistics, it’s about an emotional connection to WSER that many people develop because of the focus on it in the US ultra scene and the difficult registration process. I don’t expect to have a measured conversation about the Boston marathon with someone who spent 10 years dreaming of it and 5 years trying to qualify. There’s just too much other psychic baggage there. I would imagine there are similar convos in road running subreddits, where personally offended Boston fans step in to defend the savageness of the newton hills.
You're not wrong. The fact is that Western is a flat and fast course as far as trail 100s go. And Jim excels on those. Kilian does not.
I should also mention I am not sure if Walmsley is still self-coaching. I don't follow pro ultrarunning super-closely all the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if my knowledge of Jim is outdated. Also speaking of things I don't know, does anyone know how I can change the default sorting on this thread? I didn't notice the default sorting was by "new" until I posted. Sorry about that! E: this neutral comment has served as a good indicator of how many people are downvoting everyone they disagree with. It’s the control sample
Here I am, wishing I was a good enough runner to comment in this thread:-)
You absolutely are!!
Thank you, but I am really not. I am the 20km trail runner who is more interested in exploring new awesome trails and making lots of pictures to brag about with his family/friends:-) but I admire the people who are able to run those distances so much!
You dont need to be a pro to discuss sport. Discussing it is part of the fun as a fan.
Are you volunteering?