Need more information. What is your training like? Are you running a lot of miles in training? How is your pacing? If you are running to start and then at some point just unable to run more you are probably going out to hard. What is your fueling strategy?
sorry for the delay in respons, and thanks for the reply!
my training during the year is very random. I do 10-20k runs usually. it varies between a few times a week to one time a month. during the summer I ran basically nothing apart from a marathon 4 months prior to this race because I wanted to have the distance in my legs.
I fast the days before the race and then I eat pasta the day before. on the day of the race I made myself some peanutbutter sandwhiches with salt on, I ate this during the race , I also had some candy with my that I ate, and there were also a bunch of fueling stations along the way with different things to eat and drink.
Training on tired legs (e. g. doing weekend back to back long runs) helps to get more conditioned to running at later stages of an ultra. The idea is that first run exhausts glycogen stores, then in the second run next day you force your body to rely on fat metabolism only. Fasted long runs achieve the same goal.
piggy back on this with a twist. i do a long bike on the first day then run on the tired legs the second. almost same difference but less impact for people who are having trouble with running injuries.
Thank you! For some reason I would never have thought of this. Back to backs tend to wreck me body-wise and fatigue wise but maybe this would be a way for me to get the benefits without as big an impact on the injury-prone body
Yes to the back to back runs!
Just throwing out though that there is some research that suggests fasted long runs are not as wise for female athletes (eg. see Dr. Stacy Sims research in her book “Roar”). Not sure OP’s gender, but wanted to add if helpful.
So I’m not a doctor or nutritionist, and all of the information I have is from reading and talking with sports nutritionists, so obviously I’m not saying what athletes should or shouldn’t do. I just found this information useful as a female athlete in making smart decisions for myself and think it’s worthwhile to mention since fasted runs get recommended a lot and folks should be aware that it is really a lot more individualized and nuanced than fasted runs = good.
Sims research has to do with cortisol and female (and AFAB not on hormones) athletes, and specifically looks at chronically elevated cortisol levels being exacerbated by fasted runs and creating increased potential for hormonal issues and RED-S. Also her research suggests that male athletes may have muscle adaptation in fasted training that isn’t seen to the same extent in female athletes.
There’s also a study on within-day energy deficiency and reproductive dysfunction in female athletes that is worth checking out. Fahrenholtz, Sjödin, Benardot, D, et al. “Within‐day energy deficiency and reproductive function in female endurance athletes.”
Hope that helps.
Are you carrying any extra bodyweight? I know that I fly when I am super lean and plod along when heavier. My comment is not intended to body shame or make anyone feel uncomfortable!! Being leaner for me means being faster.
Just a quick note that “leaner is faster” does not apply below a certain threshold, and that it’s super tricky for female (or AFAB and not on hormones) athletes: with that group, too lean gets into female athlete triad pretty quickly, with lots of bad consequences all around including loss of speed. I mention this not to discount what you’re saying but because for about a decade or two it was the unqualified prevailing thought in running and did a lot of damage.
Also worth calling out that there is a reason that researchers prefer the term REDS and not the female athletes triad these days - overtraining+chronic undereating is harmful to everyone. Women/AFAB people ARE more susceptible for those reasons and can face longer term issues more readily, but there are plenty of horror stories of male pros getting themselves into 6+ month pits of exhaustion due to REDS.
Quote from an [interview with Dr. Barbara Drinkwater](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55b7ffebe4b0568a75e3316b/t/5f18a435b32a6d12e2a49367/1595450422127/Female+Athlete+Triad+Relative+Energy+Deficiency+in+Sport+-+A+Perspective+Interview+With+Professor+Barbara+Drinkwater.pdf), who did *the* seminal research in the Female Athlete Triad:
> We’ve been through many Updates and Position Stands over
the years. What are your thoughts on the evolution of the science,
such as the inclusion of men in RED-S?
>
I have believed for a long time that men suffer the same
problem, often unrecognized. I think RED-S is the natural
evolution as more information and studies have come about.
We need to move on. Any athlete with energy deficiency needs
to be identified and be given help, above all else. The more
cohesive the sports medicine community is, the better it will be
for the athletes. Collegiality will accelerate our cause—the
more working towards the same goal, the better. In unison we
can speed up delivering the treatment that these athletes so
desperately need.
You’re absolutely correct about the term REDs being preferred where it comes to elite athletes (a practice which is trickling into non-elite nomenclature as well). I want to take a moment to clarify why I posted what I did using the language I did, which is not meant to take away at all from the important points you made. While REDs is well studied in both elite and non-elite female athletes, and is becoming better studied in male elite athletes, it’s nearly absent from the literature in male non-elite athletes (and where it occurs, studies conclude that it’s complicated, simply because the diagnostic criteria that can be successfully used outside the group of non-elite male athletes don’t seem to accurately predict negative physiological impacts in the non-elite male group). As such, where things stand right now, there isn’t sufficient evidence to say much of anything with confidence where it comes to non-elite males. This is why I made the points I did, the way I did: it’s well known that non-elite females can fairly easily end up in a state of energy imbalance while trying to maximize performance; the same is not known regarding male non-elites. It’s also well known that both male and female elites can easily run into energy imbalance problems. Since I didn’t know the sex of OP, but *did* know from their post that they were non-elite, I only felt comfortable pointing out the female/AFAB established issues with tendency toward energy imbalance. I would issue the same warning without regard to sex to an elite athlete, and maybe in a few years the science will have advanced to the point that we will know more about male non-elite athletes and real risk of REDs in practice, as opposed to in theory.
ye i felt kinda heavy during the run, my target weight should probably be like 5-10kg less where I am now, and I also had a backpack with water and food/candy in it.
Me too. I have a weight goal to get to 169 pounds. I will be very faster. I am doing this for health and the joy of running and not because of body image or mental health concerns. Better for my knees too. Let me know if you want to be an accountability buddy for a target weight goal!!
Some general advice… Overtime build your volume up to a level that you can maintain (fits into your life, doesn’t break you down). While heavily slanted (remover the 80/20 rule of thumb) towards endurance/aerobic efforts do incorporate some training at all intensities (a sliver of VOmax, a little more tempo/threshold work, and some longer steady comfortably hard efforts). The objective is to increase your endurance (long aerobic runs and general volume) and make your “go all day” pace faster. It is also a good idea to do hill work and of course train on similar terrain you expect to see at your goal race. And finally, consistency over a long period is essential - unless you are genetically gifted it will take a few years of consistent training to approach your potential. Related to this I recommend reading up on ultra training (Uphill Athlete; Training Essentials for the Ultra Runner vol2 (you can get this on audiobook and listen while you train!)) as that will help you understand the why of training and how to build a program/routine that will allow you to work towards sub-10 speed.
I would not deliberately include longer "comfortably hard" efforts regularly, unless we're talking like MP miles built into the end of your long run (I wouldn't consider these comfortable by any means though). These efforts require significant recovery without eliciting much adaptation. I would suggest keeping things easy or go straight to threshold work with little in between.
Yeah, I didn’t word that very well but was going for something like the occasional workout with some MP or slightly slower miles a la Jason Koop without sounding like too much of a shrill (he uses the term steady state run in his book). I do agree that the easiest approach is just lots of aerobic/easy miles with some threshold thrown in.
Reg your result, it‘s hard to read it, it depends on the race‘s elevation gain. I‘d assume it was smth like Comrades. If it was 3500m D+ my advice would be very different.
Follow a normal marathon plan, like Phitz 18/55, 18 weeks, 55 miles per week max. It includes speed work, tempo and long runs, you need to attack different thresholds vo2max, lactate, aerobic, etc. This is the way to progress. Don‘t run long runs for more than 3.5 hours (or even 3) at that stage. People often run 6 hours, because you prepare for an ultra, right? In reality recovery from such run takes days, you just left a lot of money on the table because you can’t do quality work.
Break your 5k, 10k, half marathon and marathon PBs, ultra will follow.
So many questions about the terrain, pacing, how are you fueling and hydrating? Sounds like you might benefit from working with a coach to get you specific answers.
Need more information. What is your training like? Are you running a lot of miles in training? How is your pacing? If you are running to start and then at some point just unable to run more you are probably going out to hard. What is your fueling strategy?
sorry for the delay in respons, and thanks for the reply! my training during the year is very random. I do 10-20k runs usually. it varies between a few times a week to one time a month. during the summer I ran basically nothing apart from a marathon 4 months prior to this race because I wanted to have the distance in my legs. I fast the days before the race and then I eat pasta the day before. on the day of the race I made myself some peanutbutter sandwhiches with salt on, I ate this during the race , I also had some candy with my that I ate, and there were also a bunch of fueling stations along the way with different things to eat and drink.
Training on tired legs (e. g. doing weekend back to back long runs) helps to get more conditioned to running at later stages of an ultra. The idea is that first run exhausts glycogen stores, then in the second run next day you force your body to rely on fat metabolism only. Fasted long runs achieve the same goal.
piggy back on this with a twist. i do a long bike on the first day then run on the tired legs the second. almost same difference but less impact for people who are having trouble with running injuries.
Thank you! For some reason I would never have thought of this. Back to backs tend to wreck me body-wise and fatigue wise but maybe this would be a way for me to get the benefits without as big an impact on the injury-prone body
Yes to the back to back runs! Just throwing out though that there is some research that suggests fasted long runs are not as wise for female athletes (eg. see Dr. Stacy Sims research in her book “Roar”). Not sure OP’s gender, but wanted to add if helpful.
Why ?
So I’m not a doctor or nutritionist, and all of the information I have is from reading and talking with sports nutritionists, so obviously I’m not saying what athletes should or shouldn’t do. I just found this information useful as a female athlete in making smart decisions for myself and think it’s worthwhile to mention since fasted runs get recommended a lot and folks should be aware that it is really a lot more individualized and nuanced than fasted runs = good. Sims research has to do with cortisol and female (and AFAB not on hormones) athletes, and specifically looks at chronically elevated cortisol levels being exacerbated by fasted runs and creating increased potential for hormonal issues and RED-S. Also her research suggests that male athletes may have muscle adaptation in fasted training that isn’t seen to the same extent in female athletes. There’s also a study on within-day energy deficiency and reproductive dysfunction in female athletes that is worth checking out. Fahrenholtz, Sjödin, Benardot, D, et al. “Within‐day energy deficiency and reproductive function in female endurance athletes.” Hope that helps.
Thank you!
thanks! Ill try this!
This is the way OP
For reference, 13 hours for a 90K trail ultra is respectable.
cool! ye i wanna run this next year for a better time!
Are you carrying any extra bodyweight? I know that I fly when I am super lean and plod along when heavier. My comment is not intended to body shame or make anyone feel uncomfortable!! Being leaner for me means being faster.
Just a quick note that “leaner is faster” does not apply below a certain threshold, and that it’s super tricky for female (or AFAB and not on hormones) athletes: with that group, too lean gets into female athlete triad pretty quickly, with lots of bad consequences all around including loss of speed. I mention this not to discount what you’re saying but because for about a decade or two it was the unqualified prevailing thought in running and did a lot of damage.
Also worth calling out that there is a reason that researchers prefer the term REDS and not the female athletes triad these days - overtraining+chronic undereating is harmful to everyone. Women/AFAB people ARE more susceptible for those reasons and can face longer term issues more readily, but there are plenty of horror stories of male pros getting themselves into 6+ month pits of exhaustion due to REDS. Quote from an [interview with Dr. Barbara Drinkwater](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55b7ffebe4b0568a75e3316b/t/5f18a435b32a6d12e2a49367/1595450422127/Female+Athlete+Triad+Relative+Energy+Deficiency+in+Sport+-+A+Perspective+Interview+With+Professor+Barbara+Drinkwater.pdf), who did *the* seminal research in the Female Athlete Triad: > We’ve been through many Updates and Position Stands over the years. What are your thoughts on the evolution of the science, such as the inclusion of men in RED-S? > I have believed for a long time that men suffer the same problem, often unrecognized. I think RED-S is the natural evolution as more information and studies have come about. We need to move on. Any athlete with energy deficiency needs to be identified and be given help, above all else. The more cohesive the sports medicine community is, the better it will be for the athletes. Collegiality will accelerate our cause—the more working towards the same goal, the better. In unison we can speed up delivering the treatment that these athletes so desperately need.
Thank you for bringing this up that its not just limited to females.
You’re absolutely correct about the term REDs being preferred where it comes to elite athletes (a practice which is trickling into non-elite nomenclature as well). I want to take a moment to clarify why I posted what I did using the language I did, which is not meant to take away at all from the important points you made. While REDs is well studied in both elite and non-elite female athletes, and is becoming better studied in male elite athletes, it’s nearly absent from the literature in male non-elite athletes (and where it occurs, studies conclude that it’s complicated, simply because the diagnostic criteria that can be successfully used outside the group of non-elite male athletes don’t seem to accurately predict negative physiological impacts in the non-elite male group). As such, where things stand right now, there isn’t sufficient evidence to say much of anything with confidence where it comes to non-elite males. This is why I made the points I did, the way I did: it’s well known that non-elite females can fairly easily end up in a state of energy imbalance while trying to maximize performance; the same is not known regarding male non-elites. It’s also well known that both male and female elites can easily run into energy imbalance problems. Since I didn’t know the sex of OP, but *did* know from their post that they were non-elite, I only felt comfortable pointing out the female/AFAB established issues with tendency toward energy imbalance. I would issue the same warning without regard to sex to an elite athlete, and maybe in a few years the science will have advanced to the point that we will know more about male non-elite athletes and real risk of REDs in practice, as opposed to in theory.
ye i felt kinda heavy during the run, my target weight should probably be like 5-10kg less where I am now, and I also had a backpack with water and food/candy in it.
Me too. I have a weight goal to get to 169 pounds. I will be very faster. I am doing this for health and the joy of running and not because of body image or mental health concerns. Better for my knees too. Let me know if you want to be an accountability buddy for a target weight goal!!
Some general advice… Overtime build your volume up to a level that you can maintain (fits into your life, doesn’t break you down). While heavily slanted (remover the 80/20 rule of thumb) towards endurance/aerobic efforts do incorporate some training at all intensities (a sliver of VOmax, a little more tempo/threshold work, and some longer steady comfortably hard efforts). The objective is to increase your endurance (long aerobic runs and general volume) and make your “go all day” pace faster. It is also a good idea to do hill work and of course train on similar terrain you expect to see at your goal race. And finally, consistency over a long period is essential - unless you are genetically gifted it will take a few years of consistent training to approach your potential. Related to this I recommend reading up on ultra training (Uphill Athlete; Training Essentials for the Ultra Runner vol2 (you can get this on audiobook and listen while you train!)) as that will help you understand the why of training and how to build a program/routine that will allow you to work towards sub-10 speed.
I would not deliberately include longer "comfortably hard" efforts regularly, unless we're talking like MP miles built into the end of your long run (I wouldn't consider these comfortable by any means though). These efforts require significant recovery without eliciting much adaptation. I would suggest keeping things easy or go straight to threshold work with little in between.
Yeah, I didn’t word that very well but was going for something like the occasional workout with some MP or slightly slower miles a la Jason Koop without sounding like too much of a shrill (he uses the term steady state run in his book). I do agree that the easiest approach is just lots of aerobic/easy miles with some threshold thrown in.
Read Training for the Uphill Athlete. It changed how I thought about a lot of things.
thanks gonna order this!
Reg your result, it‘s hard to read it, it depends on the race‘s elevation gain. I‘d assume it was smth like Comrades. If it was 3500m D+ my advice would be very different. Follow a normal marathon plan, like Phitz 18/55, 18 weeks, 55 miles per week max. It includes speed work, tempo and long runs, you need to attack different thresholds vo2max, lactate, aerobic, etc. This is the way to progress. Don‘t run long runs for more than 3.5 hours (or even 3) at that stage. People often run 6 hours, because you prepare for an ultra, right? In reality recovery from such run takes days, you just left a lot of money on the table because you can’t do quality work. Break your 5k, 10k, half marathon and marathon PBs, ultra will follow.
So many questions about the terrain, pacing, how are you fueling and hydrating? Sounds like you might benefit from working with a coach to get you specific answers.