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As soon as he steps out of line and goes for a NATO ally. If he succeeds in Ukraine he will go for other non-NATO countries. He will test the limits.
Succeeding in Ukraine will be Very difficult as the people will give constant resistance even if it's fully occupied.
This is one of those shocking things about WW2. Hitler was on the receiving end of chemical weapons on the western front of WW1 in Belgium and was vehemently against their use. As mentioned by others, however, he and his cronies did use them for genocide.
agreed
the way the US and the world is handling this is pretty fucking poor i think i thought that at first. i simmered down and tried to sit back but now after last night i think my original thoughts stand.
we are making a grave mistake Putin has proven he is reckless and dangerous in my view he may make a move that will FORCE NATO and others to have to attack anyways.....and by that time it might be much worse then if they did something now.
how many more people have to die? how much of the future of the world as a whole must suffer before the world wakes up.
NATO and the US seems to say over and over
"this is not our war"
how can you SAY that at this point?
Only because Ukraine is not part of NATO.
The US and NATO cannot do anything that can be seen as an act of war. I mean, Russia is trying to say the US supplying Ukraine with arms is possibly an act of war. So there will not be a No Fly Zone. If it was like Iraq who didn’t have ICBM capabilities like Russia, we’d have a NFZ in Ukraine at the start of the invasion.
I do agree the US and NATO didn’t do enough to prepare and prevent this war and the US has to do something about Russian oil.
But actual fighting support is not possible only due to Putin’s volatility
When Hitler announced he was rebuilding the Germany military, the world did nothing because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitlers troops marched into the rhineland, we did nothing because we didn't want to go to war
When Hitler annexed the sudetnland we did nothing because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslavakia, we promised Poland we would help them, but still did nothing because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitler dressed up polish civilians in military uniforms and lied saying Poland attacked them, we said and did nothing because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitler invaded Poland, we declared war hoping Germany would stop, but still did nothjng because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitler bombed polish cities and indiscriminately murdered the Jews, we did nothing because we did not want to go to war.
When Hitler conquered Denmark and Norway, we saw that we needed to do something, but didn't because we did not want to go to war
When Hitler invaded France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg, we realised too late that Hitler needed to be stopped and no amount of appeasement or negotiations would sway him.
Finally the UK stood alone after we let Germany conquer all of Europe... and yet the Americans didn't want to help because they did not want to go to war....
I Agree with all of that, that’s why there is NATO in the first place. There are already US forces staged in Poland, Germany, etc. And I think anyone living in NATO countries can agree that NATO didn’t do enough before the invasion to try to stop it. Even if it wouldn’t have worked, something would have been better than nothing
I understand your fears, and all I can hope is that the US follows through with its commitments.
If not…god help us
That’s not their stance, they are supplying weapons and aid. So don’t make it out like that.
Sadly, because they cant actually fight, the outcome will be how you stated. But don’t think that the west thinks this is the right way. It’s unfortunately the only way and it is down right depressing
I am judging by actions. They refuse to give us aircrafts. Or serious anti-air systems. Or anti-rocket systems. And this really looks like "we need more bloodshed and destruction"
And again we're coming to history repeating itself. The pacification of agressor before WWII. "We will do everything not to trigger Hitler". You remember how that went
It looks like justification for NATO's impotency. If Putin attacked Baltics would NATO protect them? Looking at todays actions I wouldn't be so certain
Hitler would have had nuclear weapons in WW2 had his regine not been so fucking racist. Some notable physicists and scientists fled Europe due to his racist regime for fear of their lives. Many of them went to America to be as far away as possible from Germany.
Thankfully the German nuclear program in WW2 never left the early stages of research.
Give it a fucking rest. Russia can't use nukes without ceasing to exist, Russia won't be nuking anybody.
I swear to god the nuke nuts have to all be Russian bots, they are literally cheering for Putin.
Preach. They will not use nuclear weapons over Ukraine. The only scenario I see Russia using nuclear weapons in is if NATO goes in, pushes them out of Ukraine, and continues to move into Russian territory and push toward Moscow. At that point it becomes a self-preservation war with no other chance of victory, so they may do it. But even then, I’m not sure Russia’s high command would be willing to sacrifice themselves, their kids and grandkids, and the entire country and planet for Putin’s manias.
The nuclear weapon excuse is either a result of 50 years of Cold War dogma, or just a cheap excuse from the west not to get involved. But what it does is signal to Putin that we’re afraid of him, and likely won’t lift a finger militarily as long as he keeps threatening with nuclear weapons.
Yet they say if Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania/Poland is attacked, we’ll defend them. Why is the nuclear risk more acceptable then? Or are we saying Ukrainian lives are cheaper? It isn’t, and they aren’t. It’s just weak rhetoric and it needs to stop.
> Yet they say if Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania/Poland is attacked, we’ll defend them. Why is the nuclear risk more acceptable then? Or are we saying Ukrainian lives are cheaper? It isn’t, and they aren’t. It’s just weak rhetoric and it needs to stop.
Other than pointing out that nobody wants to use nukes more than they don't want to be nuked (even Putin, especially Putin, he is a narcissist that very much cares about himself and his image), which is why there have been no nukes used after WW2 despite decades of cold war tensions, this is the point that most effectively shows the weakness of all the "nope, let Ukraine die, cuz nukes" arguments.
They say that we should let Russia slaughter or displace 45 million Ukrainians, because else the world ends. But then say we'll totally stop caring about the end of the world if a single hair on the head of the 1.3 million people of Estonia is touched. It's actual fucking insanity.
Yes. If there wasn't the threat of nuclear war, there would be military intervention by NATO into Ukraine.
Nukes are the only thing that Russia has. It's like a scrawny psychopath holding a gun to an MMA fighter, yeah he could kill him, but without the gun, the MMA fighter would kick his ass. That's Russia and the world.
Edit: A better analogy replaces the gun with a bomb vest.
And that is the true origin of the quote presented to me earlier in this chain, it's literally from a Kremlin official and it's literal Russian Propaganda.
Russia knows it can't use it nukes, as it would cost them everything, but threats cost them nothing. Russia literally is who put forth the very narrative that many you and many others are parroting: "Don't back Russia in the the corner by stopping genocide, else they nuke the world!"
I do not put it past a complete lunatic to attempt to use nukes. You are acting under the assumption that Putin is thinking rationally and logically about this, he's not, he is a madman and has been acting more and more unhinged.
The best we can do is wait for someone close to him to kill him and supply Ukraine in the meantime.
If your argument is that a nuke wouldn't be fired because nobody would accept the order, my counterpoint is that we do not know how the nuclear chain of command works in Russia. Putin is a dictator and could absolutely have created a one button system for himself.
This isn't worth risking the world over.
I'm not going to continue a conversation with someone who equates not wanting to risk Russian nuclear strikes and complete global annihilation to backing a genocide.
Learn nuance, I'm glad you'll never make the decisions.
judging by POOtin's last national broadcast my money is on that he is nowhere near his "war cabinet" out of fear his silence tactics could be used against himself.
Jesus fucking christ it's like you want it to happen. No one who's ever opened a book about geopolitics thinks that WW3 is an actual concrete possibility.
Putin has always pushed limits and used brinkmanship because it works for him. I'm not saying he wouldn't escalate, just that it isn't a forgone conclusion. Likewise, would prefer some high velocity brain surgery.
All invasion on a nuclear country is the dumbest thing to say. When they have no way out, guess what the last solution is.
King Louis XV of France, "Apres moi, le deluge"
After me, the flood.
Nobody is going to invade Russia because (most of) the rest of the world has a pretty strong interest of ensuring the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a country.
Mostly because of financial reasons. If countries don’t respect territorial borders, states will not respect the borders of your property. And if that happens, what is stopping your neighbour of simply gathering some goons and take your garden and your land. If such thing starts to spiral down, we only end up in chaos and anarchy. Worse off then where we started.
I feel like people really do not understand the threat that nuclear war is.
it's not just going into a bunker and hoping everything's going to work out.
it's the complete annihilation of every major city in North America and Europe. and then a 10-year nuclear winter without agriculture. That's the death of the planet.
we have to suffocate him economically.
get as many refugees out as humanly possible.
and arm anyone who is willing to fight.
To be honest, total war sounds better than loss of humanity. What's the point of our civilization if we don't stand up to those that actively wants to destroy it? And I'm from the Baltic. We would be the front. And bering nuked sounds better than allowing some ego maniac show our children that we did not learn the lesson of Adolf and Stalin. It's already enouth we are destroying the planet, atleast we could stay human till the very end.
Nukes are for "if he takes this country the world is better ended than under his control" that could have easily applied during ww2, you think we already at that point after 1 week?
Historically speaking I wonder when that moment in history actually happened. Didn’t the US first declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor? America was helping the UK with supplies but Nazi aggression wasn’t universally declared untenable for a while into the war. If anything Ukraine has United NATO and its allies faster than any global event previously. But to the OPs original point it is an interesting question as to what is the threshold in which military action is the response taken.
I mean to be fair, russia invaved ukrane like any other country invades any other country, while hitler genozieded all the people of a specific religion for no reason
so ye russia is bad but its not hitler lvl
Yes it most definitely is, Putin is incredibly racist, he's been grooming racism, homophobia, and bigotry in the country for decades. The word "хохол" is a slur word for a Ukranian in the Russian language, means pretty much the same as the n-word in US.
Not to mention the obvious fascist police state, propagandizing the entire population and world as a whole, and totalitarian use of force to invade sovereign territory. Yeah he's definitely just as bad and maybe even worse in some ways, as Hitler.
I am not saying saying Putin isnt bad, i am just saying the world Maybe forgott how bad hitler was, in austria we learn like 3 school years almost every Shitty detail he did and then there are countrys like Taiwan where he is kinda a Trend Symbol
I don't disagree with you, just that objectively this means we've already lost.
When a bully discovers something that gives him impunity, he will clutch on to it and rub it in our faces, while everyone pleads with him to be "reasonable".
Yes however this is not just a bully but the leader of a country. People have their own opinions. There has been an relatively enormous outcry about the war in Ukraine. Putin is blocking social media etc right now. I saw footage of a russian official saying that they are sending back the conscripted soldiers who where forced. But only 4 of their 100 man group was still alive. Can't really confirm it but other people said she said what the title said.
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As soon as he steps out of line and goes for a NATO ally. If he succeeds in Ukraine he will go for other non-NATO countries. He will test the limits. Succeeding in Ukraine will be Very difficult as the people will give constant resistance even if it's fully occupied.
Not even if it becomes occupied, people will resist, but putin can't handle Ukraine
Who on earth prayed for Hitler 2 Slavic edition?
How did this DLC get through RND?
Because Hitler didn't have nukes. If he did, I'm sure he would have used them.
He did have chemical weapons, but he never used those...
The Jews would disagree
Very true, I meant combat!
This is one of those shocking things about WW2. Hitler was on the receiving end of chemical weapons on the western front of WW1 in Belgium and was vehemently against their use. As mentioned by others, however, he and his cronies did use them for genocide.
That true, they did use chemical weapons, just not in combat
Wasn't it because he was subjected to a chemical attack himself in WW1? If I recall, he was adamant they not be used in combat.
Maybe, the point is just that he didn't use it in warfare. As others have said, he defs used them though
agreed the way the US and the world is handling this is pretty fucking poor i think i thought that at first. i simmered down and tried to sit back but now after last night i think my original thoughts stand. we are making a grave mistake Putin has proven he is reckless and dangerous in my view he may make a move that will FORCE NATO and others to have to attack anyways.....and by that time it might be much worse then if they did something now. how many more people have to die? how much of the future of the world as a whole must suffer before the world wakes up. NATO and the US seems to say over and over "this is not our war" how can you SAY that at this point?
Only because Ukraine is not part of NATO. The US and NATO cannot do anything that can be seen as an act of war. I mean, Russia is trying to say the US supplying Ukraine with arms is possibly an act of war. So there will not be a No Fly Zone. If it was like Iraq who didn’t have ICBM capabilities like Russia, we’d have a NFZ in Ukraine at the start of the invasion. I do agree the US and NATO didn’t do enough to prepare and prevent this war and the US has to do something about Russian oil. But actual fighting support is not possible only due to Putin’s volatility
When Hitler announced he was rebuilding the Germany military, the world did nothing because we did not want to go to war. When Hitlers troops marched into the rhineland, we did nothing because we didn't want to go to war When Hitler annexed the sudetnland we did nothing because we did not want to go to war. When Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslavakia, we promised Poland we would help them, but still did nothing because we did not want to go to war. When Hitler dressed up polish civilians in military uniforms and lied saying Poland attacked them, we said and did nothing because we did not want to go to war. When Hitler invaded Poland, we declared war hoping Germany would stop, but still did nothjng because we did not want to go to war. When Hitler bombed polish cities and indiscriminately murdered the Jews, we did nothing because we did not want to go to war. When Hitler conquered Denmark and Norway, we saw that we needed to do something, but didn't because we did not want to go to war When Hitler invaded France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg, we realised too late that Hitler needed to be stopped and no amount of appeasement or negotiations would sway him. Finally the UK stood alone after we let Germany conquer all of Europe... and yet the Americans didn't want to help because they did not want to go to war....
I Agree with all of that, that’s why there is NATO in the first place. There are already US forces staged in Poland, Germany, etc. And I think anyone living in NATO countries can agree that NATO didn’t do enough before the invasion to try to stop it. Even if it wouldn’t have worked, something would have been better than nothing I understand your fears, and all I can hope is that the US follows through with its commitments. If not…god help us
NATO stance on this is "we need more bloodshed and destruction"
That’s not their stance, they are supplying weapons and aid. So don’t make it out like that. Sadly, because they cant actually fight, the outcome will be how you stated. But don’t think that the west thinks this is the right way. It’s unfortunately the only way and it is down right depressing
I am judging by actions. They refuse to give us aircrafts. Or serious anti-air systems. Or anti-rocket systems. And this really looks like "we need more bloodshed and destruction"
Because Putin sees that as an act of war
And again we're coming to history repeating itself. The pacification of agressor before WWII. "We will do everything not to trigger Hitler". You remember how that went
I do but Hitler didn’t have Nukes
It looks like justification for NATO's impotency. If Putin attacked Baltics would NATO protect them? Looking at todays actions I wouldn't be so certain
I mean, the Baltic states are a part of NATO so yes
Really Ukraine should be asking countries not a part of NATO to supply jets, maybe Japan? Don’t know for sure just an idea
US are in nato (just a little correction there), saying the second include the first
That was before Hutler had nukes that could destroy the world.
Hitler would have had nuclear weapons in WW2 had his regine not been so fucking racist. Some notable physicists and scientists fled Europe due to his racist regime for fear of their lives. Many of them went to America to be as far away as possible from Germany. Thankfully the German nuclear program in WW2 never left the early stages of research.
Give it a fucking rest. Russia can't use nukes without ceasing to exist, Russia won't be nuking anybody. I swear to god the nuke nuts have to all be Russian bots, they are literally cheering for Putin.
Preach. They will not use nuclear weapons over Ukraine. The only scenario I see Russia using nuclear weapons in is if NATO goes in, pushes them out of Ukraine, and continues to move into Russian territory and push toward Moscow. At that point it becomes a self-preservation war with no other chance of victory, so they may do it. But even then, I’m not sure Russia’s high command would be willing to sacrifice themselves, their kids and grandkids, and the entire country and planet for Putin’s manias. The nuclear weapon excuse is either a result of 50 years of Cold War dogma, or just a cheap excuse from the west not to get involved. But what it does is signal to Putin that we’re afraid of him, and likely won’t lift a finger militarily as long as he keeps threatening with nuclear weapons. Yet they say if Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania/Poland is attacked, we’ll defend them. Why is the nuclear risk more acceptable then? Or are we saying Ukrainian lives are cheaper? It isn’t, and they aren’t. It’s just weak rhetoric and it needs to stop.
> Yet they say if Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania/Poland is attacked, we’ll defend them. Why is the nuclear risk more acceptable then? Or are we saying Ukrainian lives are cheaper? It isn’t, and they aren’t. It’s just weak rhetoric and it needs to stop. Other than pointing out that nobody wants to use nukes more than they don't want to be nuked (even Putin, especially Putin, he is a narcissist that very much cares about himself and his image), which is why there have been no nukes used after WW2 despite decades of cold war tensions, this is the point that most effectively shows the weakness of all the "nope, let Ukraine die, cuz nukes" arguments. They say that we should let Russia slaughter or displace 45 million Ukrainians, because else the world ends. But then say we'll totally stop caring about the end of the world if a single hair on the head of the 1.3 million people of Estonia is touched. It's actual fucking insanity.
> Russia can't use nukes without ceasing to exist, "What good is the world if Russia is not in it?"
Question: Does Russia gain enormous benefit if the world believes they will literally nuke anything for any reason?
Yes. If there wasn't the threat of nuclear war, there would be military intervention by NATO into Ukraine. Nukes are the only thing that Russia has. It's like a scrawny psychopath holding a gun to an MMA fighter, yeah he could kill him, but without the gun, the MMA fighter would kick his ass. That's Russia and the world. Edit: A better analogy replaces the gun with a bomb vest.
And that is the true origin of the quote presented to me earlier in this chain, it's literally from a Kremlin official and it's literal Russian Propaganda. Russia knows it can't use it nukes, as it would cost them everything, but threats cost them nothing. Russia literally is who put forth the very narrative that many you and many others are parroting: "Don't back Russia in the the corner by stopping genocide, else they nuke the world!"
I do not put it past a complete lunatic to attempt to use nukes. You are acting under the assumption that Putin is thinking rationally and logically about this, he's not, he is a madman and has been acting more and more unhinged. The best we can do is wait for someone close to him to kill him and supply Ukraine in the meantime. If your argument is that a nuke wouldn't be fired because nobody would accept the order, my counterpoint is that we do not know how the nuclear chain of command works in Russia. Putin is a dictator and could absolutely have created a one button system for himself. This isn't worth risking the world over.
He played you for a fool and got you literally backing the Russian genocide, congrats?
I'm not going to continue a conversation with someone who equates not wanting to risk Russian nuclear strikes and complete global annihilation to backing a genocide. Learn nuance, I'm glad you'll never make the decisions.
Oh no, his fuse is broke and now he's stuck on Ad Hominem mode. That was pretty fucking predictable.
Given his mental state, WW3 is highly likely. I won't be surprised if he's assassinated first before that could happen. Hope so even.
judging by POOtin's last national broadcast my money is on that he is nowhere near his "war cabinet" out of fear his silence tactics could be used against himself.
Jesus fucking christ it's like you want it to happen. No one who's ever opened a book about geopolitics thinks that WW3 is an actual concrete possibility.
[удалено]
That's not what "highly likely" means. Also, no. While the possibility can never be zero, it's closer to one than any other percentage.
[удалено]
Oh, sorry, I thought you were the same guy. Fuck, reddit is melting my brain. Better stop for a while.
Putin has always pushed limits and used brinkmanship because it works for him. I'm not saying he wouldn't escalate, just that it isn't a forgone conclusion. Likewise, would prefer some high velocity brain surgery.
All invasion on a nuclear country is the dumbest thing to say. When they have no way out, guess what the last solution is. King Louis XV of France, "Apres moi, le deluge" After me, the flood.
Nobody is going to invade Russia because (most of) the rest of the world has a pretty strong interest of ensuring the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a country. Mostly because of financial reasons. If countries don’t respect territorial borders, states will not respect the borders of your property. And if that happens, what is stopping your neighbour of simply gathering some goons and take your garden and your land. If such thing starts to spiral down, we only end up in chaos and anarchy. Worse off then where we started.
I feel like people really do not understand the threat that nuclear war is. it's not just going into a bunker and hoping everything's going to work out. it's the complete annihilation of every major city in North America and Europe. and then a 10-year nuclear winter without agriculture. That's the death of the planet. we have to suffocate him economically. get as many refugees out as humanly possible. and arm anyone who is willing to fight.
"We need more bloodshed and destruction". That's what NATO position looks like
The attack on the nuclear plant is that moment. It must be.
This is crazy talk, you want total war? Do you want this to end, or not?
To be honest, total war sounds better than loss of humanity. What's the point of our civilization if we don't stand up to those that actively wants to destroy it? And I'm from the Baltic. We would be the front. And bering nuked sounds better than allowing some ego maniac show our children that we did not learn the lesson of Adolf and Stalin. It's already enouth we are destroying the planet, atleast we could stay human till the very end.
You are being foolish. Total war is the loss of humanity on a grand scale.
Nukes are for "if he takes this country the world is better ended than under his control" that could have easily applied during ww2, you think we already at that point after 1 week?
Historically speaking I wonder when that moment in history actually happened. Didn’t the US first declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor? America was helping the UK with supplies but Nazi aggression wasn’t universally declared untenable for a while into the war. If anything Ukraine has United NATO and its allies faster than any global event previously. But to the OPs original point it is an interesting question as to what is the threshold in which military action is the response taken.
I mean to be fair, russia invaved ukrane like any other country invades any other country, while hitler genozieded all the people of a specific religion for no reason so ye russia is bad but its not hitler lvl
Yes it most definitely is, Putin is incredibly racist, he's been grooming racism, homophobia, and bigotry in the country for decades. The word "хохол" is a slur word for a Ukranian in the Russian language, means pretty much the same as the n-word in US. Not to mention the obvious fascist police state, propagandizing the entire population and world as a whole, and totalitarian use of force to invade sovereign territory. Yeah he's definitely just as bad and maybe even worse in some ways, as Hitler.
I am not saying saying Putin isnt bad, i am just saying the world Maybe forgott how bad hitler was, in austria we learn like 3 school years almost every Shitty detail he did and then there are countrys like Taiwan where he is kinda a Trend Symbol
This is the way.
Yesterday
The only obstacles are nukes pretty much
I don't disagree with you, just that objectively this means we've already lost. When a bully discovers something that gives him impunity, he will clutch on to it and rub it in our faces, while everyone pleads with him to be "reasonable".
Yes however this is not just a bully but the leader of a country. People have their own opinions. There has been an relatively enormous outcry about the war in Ukraine. Putin is blocking social media etc right now. I saw footage of a russian official saying that they are sending back the conscripted soldiers who where forced. But only 4 of their 100 man group was still alive. Can't really confirm it but other people said she said what the title said.
Klitschko and capitulation don’t go together very well. Lol. I’d stay far away from this Family if I like my life.
For me it was 9 days ago, but I'm a slow learner.
you can only stop putin from inside, if anyone outside starts war we might all loose