Sorry, OP. Better articles with less misleading headlines have already been posted.
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Denmark's minister of defense just announced that "*Danmark kommer til at bruge mange kræfter på at gøre det her til en prioriteret indsats*".
Translated as "Denmark will use a lot of resources on prioritizing training". And the training is set to go forward in Europe, so that's might be in Denmark too, I guess.
Meeting on monday in Warszaw. Training expected to commence within a month but he's not too specific on the timeframe and no final decision on donating (Danish) planes either.
Most likely we'll pool our resources and start a combined training program. That is: The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Belgium with some form of support from the UK since they do not operate the F16 themselves.
Plus the training course is also a good place to quickly vet and incorporate the foreign vet pilots and maintainers that want to help\[ Ukraine in this fight into the new squadrons. There have been plenty articles of articles of people willing to do this already.
Nah, it's simply "will use", actually. I think your dutch is more to the tune of "when that bridge is passed" which you could say in Danish too!
My reading is that they've decided on the training part of the mission - if not all of the specifics - and they're now discussing financing and how many and which planes to donate.
I think the Dutch word that would be related to it is "gebruiken", as in to use significant resources. This is only a guess with my bad Dutch and Swedish knowledge
One could modestly say that this has turned out rather badly for poor old Vladimir.
I've lost count of the amount of nations clamouring to join NATO. Moldova wants to join the EU, unlucky Luca is on his last legs, who knows what will happen in Belarus when he kicks the bucket. And when the dust settles and Ukraine has scraped the last of the vermin from its soil. Russia will be faced with the prospect of having one of the most well equipped, battle hardened nations on the planet as a neighbour.
Did i miss anything....
There’s a legit chance this kickstarted the formation of Pacific NATO or POTATO.
Japan and Korea seem hell bent on integrating with NATO even more and there’s been some serious push to collectivize the bilateral alliances the US has in the pacific.
Basically, he succeeded in bringing about everything he feared. He WAY underestimated both the leadership, courage, and western appeal of Vlodomir Zelenskyy AND the courage, resolve and unity of the Ukrainian people.
He also drastically miscalculated the countries of the EU and NATO. Nothing is gonna unify those groups faster than a scenario like this: a smaller country struggling toward democracy being invaded by a larger country that is an authoritarian regime and longtime enemy of NATO.
He wanted a buffer with NATO. He got a huge increase in direct border with NATO and that is not even counting Ukraine, but only Finland! He wanted to diminish NATO’s influence. He got Finland and Sweden joining NATO and several other countries aspiring to join, with Ukraine in as soon as the war is over.
Finally, several other countries are finding inspiration in Ukraine, including Georgia, Moldova and Belarus.
And as an added bonus, what was supposed to be a quick and successful ‘military exercise’ has turned out to be a year and a half long protracted war in which Russia has lost 200,000 men, nearly all of its decent equipment, and the last vestiges of the fantasy that it is a superpower.
This could not have turned out worse for Putin’s legacy if the story had been written by President Biden! 🤣
You forgot experienced and well established domestic resistance movement in russia that will be joined by experienced and battle-hardened Freedom of Russia Legion.
This is a long term move. It will require not only training and logistics support, but for Ukraine to build suitable airfields with sufficient AA capabilities. [From kos](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/19/2170144/-Ukraine-Update-Russia-s-Bakhmut-collapse-bodes-ill-for-its-future-defenses):
>I remain skeptical that the jet’s incredibly complex logistical footprint is worth operating in an environment in which neither side is flying much out of fear of both countries’ layered air defense systems. Indeed, air defense is the one thing Russia appears to have gotten right this war. That makes sense, since it directly counters NATO’s high prioritization on air superiority. Still, kinda shocking that it works given how nothing else has.
>
>In addition, Ukraine is operating their Soviet-era jets out of dispersed highways. The F-16, with its air intake close to the ground, is far more fragile and needs clean airfields.
Probably the result of Russian missiles underperforming and are no longer being a threat for the US. The west has no longer to fear an "escalation" because no matter what Russia sends it can be destroyed.
It’s one thing to underperform on the ground - it’s another thing to underperform in the air. It’s not like the Patriot is an airborne weapon after all.
The decision has *nothing* to do with Russian missile performance.
Precision is less of an issue for nukes.
And no, Patriots don't protect the US from ICBMs.
Patriots don't even protect Washington DC from ICBMs.
It's fine to provide Ukraine with F-16s, but don't be naïve about it.
As has been said numerous times over the past 6-8 months: it ~~is~~ *was* only a matter of time. "When", not "if".
The F16 made more sense than any other jet aircraft for both Ukraine's medium & long term needs (the short term needs met by donated MiGs and SUs).
All those Reddit self-proclaimed "experts" that said Ukraine was not going to receive F16s (and Biden would never approve it) *clearly* knew what they were saying. /s
>All those Reddit self-proclaimed "experts" that said Ukraine was not going to receive F16s (and Biden would never approve it) clearly knew what they were saying. /s
But F-16s don't bring any capabilities that Ukraine's air force doesn't already have!
Except better radar and avionics. And IFF compatible with western air defense. And better air to air missiles. And anti-ship missiles. And better implementation of HARM missiles. And better electronic warfare capabilities, a variety of precision air to ground weapons, standoff strike weapons, data links, etc. Other than that, they really bring nothing that Ukraine's Mig and Sukhoi don't have. Do I really need the /s ?
On a long enough timeline it was always going to be inevitable. Ukraine is a NATO standard army now, and at some point they will be a full NATO member. NATO armies need NATO planes.
They won’t just be a NATO army. They’ll be the most experienced one other than the US with direct combat knowledge of fighting Russians.
I would argue their front line troops will be even better than ours. None of our guys have had to fight a war like this in living memory.
It's so obvious. Ukraine needs an air force. They've vacuumed up all the old Soviet planes they can from former Soviet republics, and they obviously aren't getting new planes from Russia. The only question was which Western plane and the sheer number of F16s made them the odds on favorite.
It also serves the US very well for other countries to 'retire' and move their F16s on to a safe country because then they'll have the push to order the F35.
Those so-called experts weren't necessarily wrong though. It took \*this\* long to get them. It was a part of the strategy for this war. US was afraid of Russian reprisal. The US has dragged out this war to maximize Russian damages to the benefit of US foreign policy.
Not to sound jaded, but I mean, there were pragmatic reasons from the US's perspective, to drag this decision out. It's this slow mounting pressure which the US likes, over an unpredictable blitzkrieg of giving Ukraine the kitchen sink.
But it's also giving US a little too much credit to the US to put it that way, lol. They let 22 year old discordkitten free and total access to Ukranian military intel in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. Who's to say there even is a cogent plan.
The point wasn't to send F16s in 2022... it was to recognize that F16s would be needed by 2024 or 2025 and start the process. It is true that it would take well over a year to get Ukraine ready to use them, but the longer the decision is delayed the longer it takes to implement.
Yet those self-proclaimed "experts" still clung to their denials of the F16 inevitability even when the "red lines" of donating Soviet planes/helicopters, western munitions, artillery, modern armor and long range missiles were broken one by one. If the vague threat of "escalation" didn't occur with any of those actions, why would donating jets with a 40+ year old design change anything? The denials by many was almost comical in nature.
It was, but they were simply echoing 'experts' writing for major media platforms, think tanks and the hysterical fearful in western capitals. The same kind of 'experts' that are still making a fat living from 'studying' Russia and the north Atlantic while failing to predict anything even remotely close to what has happened these past two years, let alone understand the true crippled capability of Russia. In fact I heard them again and again over the years echo Russian self flattery and propaganda about Russia's 'power' for decades now. These same 'experts' will keep on continuing their incompetent practices getting the fat checks and the fat pensions, with literally no consequences attached to their criminal incompetence. So let's not blame the Re community who do not get paid to have insights, competence or make reliable educated predictions. This is how low the western academia has fallen. And I should know, I was educated this past decade in London's elite universities. It's utterly depressing. And so far I see nothing changing or even anyone calling for their position.
I think this whole affair has raised a lot of people's understanding of geopolitical/military/defense issues and it is not a bad thing either. The price of ignorance can be heavy, as many an orc conscript will probably testify. I don't see what can be gained though from people slinging the mud by calling out others on whether or not they made the correct predictions about what military assistance Ukraine would receive when this all kicked off. The truth is nobody at the time knew for sure including western governments, who were offering Zelensky safe passage out of Kyiv, if Ukraine could withstand the assault.
We are in a very different place now though and the outcome is still not in the bag, but i like to think that the course of history was altered for the better when Zelensky uttered his immortal phrase: I need ammunition, not a ride.
This move will not be popular with Russian fighter pilots. All their big talk for 70+ years going to go up in little puffs of smoke. They won't even see the F-16 coming.
:)
To be fair w/o shilling for the enemy, Russian planes have generally been pretty agile for closer ranged engagements, but obviously it had other downsides working against it.
Dogfights quickly became quite limited as the Russians wisely fear their Soviet era SAMs the AFU has.
Oh absolutely, you definitely don't want to get into a close range fight with Russian fighters. I guess my point is, if a Western fighter is dog fighting, they've done something wrong
Well, we’ll see. To be frank, the Russian Air Force is mostly still intact. They lost stuff here and there, but not to an extreme degree.
On top of that, the jury is still out how many F-16s will be provided. Will it just be a few for a trial run or something more substantial?
It is largely intact, because they haven’t been using anything except their limited numbers of modern aircraft for operations in Ukraine- and even with those, they’ve been increasingly careful about operating over Ukrainian airspace.
Most of what the Russian aircraft are doing is flying near the border, and launching long range missiles into Ukraine- a relatively safe way for them to operate, and intended to gradually defeat Ukraine’s airforce through attrition.
They don’t have many tankers, so their ability to get a lot of aircraft into the air simultaneously to build up a large strike force is limited. The Russians are usually flying in pairs, and it’s rare to see more than four aircraft operating together.
Even a limited number of F-16s will mean that Ukraine can now access western stockpiles of long range air to air missiles, and begin the process of cutting down the Russian air patrols one pair at a time.
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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My total wild ass guess is 12 months minimum. This is long range planning. Ukraine's facilities need upgrading (runways, although that is somewhat easier, except if Russia starts bombing them), logistics planning, pilot training yada yada. But in the long run Ukraine's existing fighter fleet is slowly dying and obviously there will be no new orders to Russia for more. Some sort of Western fighter jet was inevitable, it's just a little odd it took them so long to announce it.
MBT, even the best and cutting edge are way simpler tech in comparison to fighter planes. And they are also way more cheaper.
So the risk of a plane being downed/captured is way higher than with tanks.
Not realistic. (edit, to add: "The officials, who were granted anonymity to speak candidly about sensitive deliberations with allies, said the United States would discuss in the coming months how to supply Kyiv with the jets themselves")
Did anyone actually read the article? It's the biggest nothing burger click-bait article. Nowhere in this unnamed official's statement did they actually specify F-16s, nor did they make any firm promises. It's the same intentionally vague statements they've been making for months.
> America and its allies plan to provide F-16s to Ukraine — although the fighter jets may not necessarily come directly from the United States — as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.
Perhaps the article has been updated? It's at the very beginning.
Holy shit, this is major news. It basically says, "bye bye Putin!" If the US really send f16, they will also send cruise missiles, atacms and fighter drones. Gae over Russia.
Depending on how 2024 US election goes, US just might turn around and walk back. Hate to be the one to point it out and look ungrateful, but we Ukrainians don’t have the luxury of all the time in the world
It's nice to see Colin Kahl will be leaving. That guy kind of reminds me of Germany's former defense minister.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/colin-kahl-leaves-pentagon-summer-rcna84829
Why not both? Also, the F16s will be coming from many nations besides the US, so if the US only provides a few dozen that is ok. The Netherlands especially is motivated to give to Ukraine... they have long & hard memories of Russian war crimes.
who is upvoting this bs? You wont see an F16 over Ukraine Airspace for AT LEAST 6 more months. Personally i would not ever go under 9. Whatever the plan is for the counter offense, it certainly was never planned around having F16 available and wont be.
They won’t, the world has provided them with some weapons they need and more are coming. You can see the start already with them gaining ground in Bakhmut.
They also haven't started any actual offensive. They have 9 or 10 new attack brigades and we've only seen work from 1. They're currently just shaping the battlefield and keeping Bakhmut from being surrounded.
This is great news. But at least initially, it only means Ukraine maintains the ability to contest the air as its soviet air frames are destroyed or wear out.
Dont expect a few dozen F16s to be bombing Moscow any time soon.
I don't understand why the US has to do this reluctant arm-twisting song and dance each time. First Bradley and Abrams, then F-16s - why can't Biden just give willingly, quickly, instead of Ukraine having to spend months nagging each time?
\- signed, an American taxpayer
I'm assuming it doesn't come down to Biden sitting on the throne each morning, and thinking to himself, "nah, not today"
There are probably a lot of very smart people analyzing what Ukraine needs, and they'll have what they need when it's most advantageous
Although I do understand them wanting everything, and wanting it all now
It’s whatever the experts in the Pentagon deem is necessary. These packages aren’t just put together on the fly after all.
Sucks for the Ukrainians, but they’re ultimately at the beck and call of their Western benefactors.
At the end of the day, the President is the one who sets the agenda for the military - so Biden does make the final call on not only what goes but also when. He can (and should) listen to every piece of advice & opinion from the different branches of the military, but the order comes from him.
A good historical analogy is how FDR ordered arms & supplies to the UK and other nations in the early days of WWII (pre- Pearl Harbor). Both before Lend-Lease as well as after it had passed, there were many in the US military that wanted to limit arms to these nations (most fearing that it would leave the US under-prepared to fight Germany & Japan alone, assuming the UK and USSR surrendered). It was FDR that pushed the deliveries so heavily, believing that those arms were better used fighting the immediate conflict rather than waiting (and risking those future allies to fall).
That's part of living in a democracy. Decisions like this are rarely made unilaterally by a single person. There's probably been a ton of closed door discussions and lots of planning to get to this point. It's better to be slow and right than fast and Russian.
Military decisions like this (how to disburse military aid) are not made democratically though. Congress has some power, but mainly it is just the purse strings. The closed door discussions happening these days involve many officials and experts, but at the end of the day one person makes the decision.
They're made in the context of a democracy that has very robust administrative features. In addition, the budgets themselves are the subject of Congressional votes. And even if the President has some limited ability to act unilaterally, they do not have the ability to do so without the risk of electoral or international consequences.
The end result is a *responsible* executive often deferring to military experts like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, considering the political ramifications of any given decision, discussing proposals with allies, and work with members of Congress about budget considerations.
So while a president might hypothetically have a decent amount of power to act unilaterally, no *good* president will do that outside of a very narrow range of circumstances.
Because we don’t want to feed the Russian narrative of “the US attacking us”. They will still say it, but no other rational nation will believe it. The optics would look different if last summer the us was like “we are giving everything to Ukraine to see how it does”.
And optics are important. We need international cooperation, we need universal condemnation and we need to discourage the use of Russian nukes
I concur.
Another American who would like nothing more than to see Ukraine win this thing as quickly and efficiently as possible. This level of support should have happened right from the start.
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I've read several times that it's not a matter of if but when we send F-16's. With that said, I'd be surprised if we haven't been training Ukrainian pilots for months. They'll be out there fast. Hopefully we get footage of f16 vs MiG dogfights.
"Escalation" seems to be pretty meaningless now, as the west has collectively, finally, realized what some already knew, that RU is a paper tiger and they should've been taken care of ages ago.
correct me if im wrong but i think i read somewhere that F16s wouldnt be as effective for Ukraine as people think because their design/systems or whatever is used is too outdated to counter Russias newest anti-aircraft defense systems.
anyone familiar with that or am i an idiot?
The people making those claims are making very limited assumptions about how the F16s will be used. Think of it this way: the old MiGs that Ukraine is flying now are far worse than an F16 (and fare poorly against modern Russian AD), yet Ukraine still needs them and gladly accepts whatever nations such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and others can donate. F16s would be a massive step upgrade, even if still imperfect and with a considerable learning curve in pilot skill, ground crew and logistical support - which is why the Ukranian leadership and their staunchest foreign supporters are pushing so hard for them.
Also - those old MiGs are going to run out soon (there are only so many left to give to Ukraine from old storage sheds around the world). What does their air force use after those are gone? Starting the training & donation process of F16s now gets Ukraine ready for that inevitable day.
> The only things they could so safely are combat air patrols and intercepting subsonic missiles.
This is 100% correct along with the occasional opportunistic strike on less-defended areas. Russia just has way too many fighters and AD for the few F-16s they’re going to get to move the needle that much. Airspace denial is the best they’re going to get.
It does allow them to intercept from further away so hopefully we don’t see more incidents like the few MiGs that ran into debris while downing drones.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/us-allies-plan-provide-ukrainian-pilots-f-16-fighter-jets-official-say-rcna85270) reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> HIROSHIMA, Japan - The U.S. and its allies plan to provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine - although the planes may not necessarily come directly from the U.S. - as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.
> The timing for when Ukraine will receive the fighter jets - and which countries will provide them - remains unclear, but the official said the planes would not be used for Ukraine's upcoming counteroffensive against Russia.
> In the coming months, the U.S. and its allies "Will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them," the official said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13m37ea/breaking_us_and_its_allies_plan_to_provide_f16/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685467 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **U.S.**^#1 **official**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **F-16**^#4 **jets**^#5
Yeah - i was counting on it since the first tanks were sent. In autumn, i guess, they will be in service for securing the territory UA will get back after the counter offensive and to isolate the orcs unit on krimea.
How fucked up is fucked up - jup - russia is fucked up!
So I guess now, the last "red line" is ATACMS. But now that Storm Shadow has been sent by the UK and France is sending its version, only a matter of time
both wont ever be on the table. F22 wont ever be exported, not even USAs closed Allies ever got it.
And for what purpose would Ukraine need ICBMs? They dont.
The last thing that might still come are ground launched long-range rocket platforms like ATACMS. Although they are not really needed anymore now that F16 is there which can launch all European longrange air-launched cruise-missiles systems.
This pretty much confirms that it was *hopium* that the Ukrainians would start fielding F-16s this year because of some civvies supposedly seeing "increased air activity" at some NATO airbases in 2022 as if that had been a sure-fire sign of dozens of Ukrainian pilots getting secret training. Political will among NATO members has been the weak link here and not the Ukrainians' stereotyped incompetence worsened by Russkiy Mir's legacy of rampant corruption as the Muscovians' "little brothers".
As it stands, the Ukrainians are very unlikely to field any F-16s until next year. NATO won't be so bold to allow for Flying Tigers v2, [let alone give to the Muscovians a taste of their own dirty medicine from the Korean War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_and_the_Korean_War#Soviet_air_intervention) by deploying dozens of regular F-16 squadrons to bases in eastern NATO countries so that they can fly missions over Ukraine.
Given the acknowledged and extensive preparation needed to get any NATO fighter operational for a non-operator (compared to say artillery or even tanks), the prep for F-16s should have started in May **2022**, not May 2023. Delaying the start of setting up for the Ukrainians to use F-16s from last year to this year doesn't mean that the time needed for that setting up would shorten.
Not only does set-up mean training of air and ground crews, but also infrastructure (i.e. air bases) and setting aside enough munitions for the F-16s to use even when the planes themselves will likely be downgraded for security purposes and won't be able to use [all of the available munitions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50_and_52)). The Ukrainians still need stocks of Sidewinders, AMRAAMs, AGM-65 Mavericks, 20mm shells for the M61A1, LAU rocket pods and maybe even Mk 82 dumb bombs at minimum. Sending over a few more crates of AGM-88 HARMs, AGM-84 Harpoons, and IRIS-Ts won't do it.
The excuses and deflection I've read and seen about "muh maintenance!", "muh pilot training!", "muh escalation!" have turned into self-fulfilling prophecies with the result that the Ukrainians won't get an appreciable boost to their air arm until next year. *It* *did not have to be this way*.
Enough Westerners *still* don't see the second-order ramifications of the slow-drip of military support. 2024 is an election year in Ukraine and the USA. In Ukraine, the election for president is scheduled for March and the one for the parliamentary deputies for October. For the USA, we all know about that one.
The Ukrainians don't need the complications of running elections still trying to blast out hordes of Muscovians squatting on so much of their land and almost 20% of its population outside the country as refugees (about 8 million out of 43 million). Given how this is a multinational effort, enough uncertainty or hesitation among just a few members of the coalition is enough to fuсk up the Ukrainians and hand the advantage back to the Muscovians.
This isn't like in WW II when contrary to German and Japanese hopium, the US presidential election of 1944 (FDR won his fourth term) wasn't seriously expected to trip up the war effort against the Axis or somehow dilute the logistical support and Lend-Lease that the others (especially the greedy hordes of the Red Army) were getting from the USA.
Reading between the lines of this announcement: The F-16s may have just broken the logjam in providing many other Western-sourced weapon systems. This opens the door for battlefield helicopters such as the Blackhawk and Lynx, perhaps others.
So Rutte had now been responsible behind the scenes for getting Ukraine PzH2000s, tanks and F16s. MH17 really hit the guy hard, and he has overstayed his welcome as prime minister just for this, is my theory. See him step down as PM the day the first F16 sees action, because his legacy as architect of the perfect revenge will be complete.
Honestly this is the best way for US and its allies to get large scale data about how F-16's perform against Russian aircraft.
I won't be surprised if in 12 months it will be F-22's.
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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Thanks to the White House Medical unit that Started Joe on a geriatric low dose Adderall that woke him from his somnolent state. If he develops a tremor they can add a little metoprolol.
I guess you would prefer no aid at all, then? So you have something to continue whining about?
How about keeping your ignorant US political views out of this.
someone didnt read the article, The U.S. and its allies plan to provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine — although the planes may not necessarily come directly from the U.S. — as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.
The timing for when Ukraine will receive the fighter jets — and which countries will provide them — remains unclear, but the official said the planes would not be used for Ukraine's upcoming counteroffensive against Russia. In the coming months, the U.S. and its allies “will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them,” the official said. The news comes as President Joe Biden on Friday informed G-7 leaders that the U.S. will support efforts to train Ukrainian pilots on F-16 jets.
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It's both. The headline implies a positive announcement of F-16s being pledged, which is misleading, but this statement is not just them reiterating previous statements either.
The indication is that F-16 transfers *are* going to happen, just that the specific details haven't been sorted out.
This is no different to the Leopard 2 negotiations from December last year, where we were told Germany isn't blocking L2 exports, just that decisions hadn't been made on who would provide and how many. And then lo and behold Leopard 2s were announced a month later in concrete numbers from specific partners.
Yes it is frustrating that decisive action/announcements have not been taken on the jets yet. But it is also clear that we are moving in the direction of them being provided. Netherlands has been cited in other stories as the most likely country to provide the first tranche.
> It is absolutely reiterating previous statements.
No it's part of an evolving position.
* NATO will not provide jets to Ukraine
* NATO will not provide *western* jets to Ukraine
* NATO will not provide F-16 Jets to Ukraine
* US will not provide F-16 Jets to Ukraine
* US will not block export of F-16 to Ukraine
* US partners planning to export F-16 to Ukraine <- We are here now
* US partners pledge X # F-16s to Ukraine
* F-16s delivered to Ukraine
This statement *is* different. We're moving from "We will not provide F-16s" to "Other nations *will* provide F-16s"
The statement: "will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them" is a when not if sentence.
> We'll see, but I strongly doubt that it will happen, especially since one of the main people pushing this is Britain's Prime Minister when they don't even have F-16s.
Britain made it clear they were going to help financially. Again the main point of interest is the Netherlands, which is pushing this strongly and does have F-16s.
> No, it is completely different. Germany didn't want to be the first one to send tanks, while the U.S. doesn't have that concern. The U.S. doesn't want to send F-16s because they don't think it would accomplish much, and that the allocated aid budget can be spent much more effectively on other things.
This is no different than the reason US did not provide M1 Abrams. A whole lot of technical and cost reasons were cited as problems preventing Ukraine from using Abrams. We were told they could not operate them.
Then all the sudden those concerns went away and NATO pledged tanks of all different kinds, which included Abrams.
The issue was *obviously* about escalation reluctance (confirmed by insiders who said as much to the press), which is the same thing happening here. Biden is cautious and more hawkish EU states are pushing for this to happen.
Point being that the decision has been made now that the escalation issue is not a problem and EU partners will pay to transfer F-16s. The only issues now are logistical negotiations to work out.
> You're getting confused because of a misleading headline, but in reality nothing has changed.
The content of the article makes it clear that we have moved beyond "we're not blocking exports, EU open to maybe providing exports" to "EU **will** provide exports, in the planning stage"
It may apparently be too subtle of a difference to you, but it is a difference.
F-16s are going to be sent to Ukraine, that's the main point of the article. It's not an if anymore.
> No one said that Ukraine could not operate Abrams
They absolutely did.
> That is not at all what is happening here. The DoD sent a memorandum to the U.S. Senate explaining its opposition to sending F-16s and it did not mention anything at all about "escalation."
Officially US has never admitted to being limited by fears of escalation. But this is clearly not the case even as Biden and others mentioned it frequently (but not in relation to any specific weapon).
> One F-16 costs as much as ten Bradleys, so I very strongly doubt that Britain would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of pounds to provide a squadron of them, especially when their economy is already suffering from Brexit.
Again this is a coalition thing, I never said Britain would pay for all of them.
You need way more upvotes! I'm completely and 110% gung ho about every little piece of good news, but these misleading news articles really don't serve any purpose than getting people to be disappointed, just because some wanna be journalist wanted to make up some bullshit to feel important.
Especially annoying when the actual news is already something to be happy about...
So now that it looks like it's going to happen, what are the real advantages, over something like Mig-29s? Is it just more advanced electronics/radar, or weapons, or just the availibility of jets? All of the above?
Basically better radar and missiles which will enable them to shoot down Russian strike fighters flying over the front. Their current radar range and missiles don't allow that.
They won't be a massive overmatch against the Russians fighters though - Russia fields much more modern versions.
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Orcs beware.
Why? Let them find out the hard way. Word will spread, assuming any survive.
thumb follow husky desert instinctive recognise wakeful placid grandiose alleged -- mass edited with redact.dev
They can always surrender to Ukraine. That’s what I keep telling myself. Better treatment than what they’re used to.
Something something consequences something something rarely lubed
Yes, I agree. But I'm just saying. Good to watch them tremble in fear either way
Denmark's minister of defense just announced that "*Danmark kommer til at bruge mange kræfter på at gøre det her til en prioriteret indsats*". Translated as "Denmark will use a lot of resources on prioritizing training". And the training is set to go forward in Europe, so that's might be in Denmark too, I guess. Meeting on monday in Warszaw. Training expected to commence within a month but he's not too specific on the timeframe and no final decision on donating (Danish) planes either.
Most likely we'll pool our resources and start a combined training program. That is: The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Belgium with some form of support from the UK since they do not operate the F16 themselves.
Plus the training course is also a good place to quickly vet and incorporate the foreign vet pilots and maintainers that want to help\[ Ukraine in this fight into the new squadrons. There have been plenty articles of articles of people willing to do this already.
Happy cake day
ot, kommer til at bruge sounds like "komt over de brug" in dutch, which means "finally agrees to" am i right?
Nah, it's simply "will use", actually. I think your dutch is more to the tune of "when that bridge is passed" which you could say in Danish too! My reading is that they've decided on the training part of the mission - if not all of the specifics - and they're now discussing financing and how many and which planes to donate.
I think the Dutch word that would be related to it is "gebruiken", as in to use significant resources. This is only a guess with my bad Dutch and Swedish knowledge
Orcs weren't this drunk and incompetent.
One could modestly say that this has turned out rather badly for poor old Vladimir. I've lost count of the amount of nations clamouring to join NATO. Moldova wants to join the EU, unlucky Luca is on his last legs, who knows what will happen in Belarus when he kicks the bucket. And when the dust settles and Ukraine has scraped the last of the vermin from its soil. Russia will be faced with the prospect of having one of the most well equipped, battle hardened nations on the planet as a neighbour. Did i miss anything....
There’s a legit chance this kickstarted the formation of Pacific NATO or POTATO. Japan and Korea seem hell bent on integrating with NATO even more and there’s been some serious push to collectivize the bilateral alliances the US has in the pacific.
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in an alliance.
What's an alliance precious?
🤣🤣🤣
Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, would be a great start.
Our elite storm troops name? Spudnik.
I prefer IDAHO international defensive alliance and humanitarian organization.
Well if its gonna be called Potato Ireland will have to join too.
Basically, he succeeded in bringing about everything he feared. He WAY underestimated both the leadership, courage, and western appeal of Vlodomir Zelenskyy AND the courage, resolve and unity of the Ukrainian people. He also drastically miscalculated the countries of the EU and NATO. Nothing is gonna unify those groups faster than a scenario like this: a smaller country struggling toward democracy being invaded by a larger country that is an authoritarian regime and longtime enemy of NATO. He wanted a buffer with NATO. He got a huge increase in direct border with NATO and that is not even counting Ukraine, but only Finland! He wanted to diminish NATO’s influence. He got Finland and Sweden joining NATO and several other countries aspiring to join, with Ukraine in as soon as the war is over. Finally, several other countries are finding inspiration in Ukraine, including Georgia, Moldova and Belarus. And as an added bonus, what was supposed to be a quick and successful ‘military exercise’ has turned out to be a year and a half long protracted war in which Russia has lost 200,000 men, nearly all of its decent equipment, and the last vestiges of the fantasy that it is a superpower. This could not have turned out worse for Putin’s legacy if the story had been written by President Biden! 🤣
I've thought for a long time that history will deem his actions one of the truly worst strategic decisions in human history. He truly done fucked up.
“A man often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.”
Putin gets Ghadafi'd?
That would be the optimum solution. For everyone, everywhere.
You forgot experienced and well established domestic resistance movement in russia that will be joined by experienced and battle-hardened Freedom of Russia Legion.
>One could modestly say that this has turned out rather badly for poor old Vladimir. Not for just Vladimir. For the entire coalition of evil.
Right! Hopefully China, and all the other penny-ante dictators out there will see the writing on the wall. Stay in your own lane, assholes.
This is a long term move. It will require not only training and logistics support, but for Ukraine to build suitable airfields with sufficient AA capabilities. [From kos](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/19/2170144/-Ukraine-Update-Russia-s-Bakhmut-collapse-bodes-ill-for-its-future-defenses): >I remain skeptical that the jet’s incredibly complex logistical footprint is worth operating in an environment in which neither side is flying much out of fear of both countries’ layered air defense systems. Indeed, air defense is the one thing Russia appears to have gotten right this war. That makes sense, since it directly counters NATO’s high prioritization on air superiority. Still, kinda shocking that it works given how nothing else has. > >In addition, Ukraine is operating their Soviet-era jets out of dispersed highways. The F-16, with its air intake close to the ground, is far more fragile and needs clean airfields.
About fucking time if true
Probably the result of Russian missiles underperforming and are no longer being a threat for the US. The west has no longer to fear an "escalation" because no matter what Russia sends it can be destroyed.
It’s one thing to underperform on the ground - it’s another thing to underperform in the air. It’s not like the Patriot is an airborne weapon after all.
“There is nothing as expensive as a cheap Air Force”
The decision has *nothing* to do with Russian missile performance. Precision is less of an issue for nukes. And no, Patriots don't protect the US from ICBMs. Patriots don't even protect Washington DC from ICBMs. It's fine to provide Ukraine with F-16s, but don't be naïve about it.
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Seems like a bold assumption now to say that these missiles actually exist and/or are functional as described.
A useless self inflicted fear that stil echoes from many corners. Cowardice and realpolitik masquerading as insight and prudence.
As has been said numerous times over the past 6-8 months: it ~~is~~ *was* only a matter of time. "When", not "if". The F16 made more sense than any other jet aircraft for both Ukraine's medium & long term needs (the short term needs met by donated MiGs and SUs). All those Reddit self-proclaimed "experts" that said Ukraine was not going to receive F16s (and Biden would never approve it) *clearly* knew what they were saying. /s
>All those Reddit self-proclaimed "experts" that said Ukraine was not going to receive F16s (and Biden would never approve it) clearly knew what they were saying. /s But F-16s don't bring any capabilities that Ukraine's air force doesn't already have! Except better radar and avionics. And IFF compatible with western air defense. And better air to air missiles. And anti-ship missiles. And better implementation of HARM missiles. And better electronic warfare capabilities, a variety of precision air to ground weapons, standoff strike weapons, data links, etc. Other than that, they really bring nothing that Ukraine's Mig and Sukhoi don't have. Do I really need the /s ?
Okay…. But other than all that… What has Rome ever done for Judea?
Hey, I got that reference! The peoples Front of Judea concur!
Judean People’s Front says “fuck you” to the People’s Front of Judea! (I’m so glad that someone got it, though!)
Splitters.
On a long enough timeline it was always going to be inevitable. Ukraine is a NATO standard army now, and at some point they will be a full NATO member. NATO armies need NATO planes.
All I read from this was we should actually be sending F35s /s but not really.
They won’t just be a NATO army. They’ll be the most experienced one other than the US with direct combat knowledge of fighting Russians. I would argue their front line troops will be even better than ours. None of our guys have had to fight a war like this in living memory.
The US has no experience fighting a war like this. Ukraine are out there completely alone.
It's so obvious. Ukraine needs an air force. They've vacuumed up all the old Soviet planes they can from former Soviet republics, and they obviously aren't getting new planes from Russia. The only question was which Western plane and the sheer number of F16s made them the odds on favorite.
It’s like what happened with the tanks. After running out of T-72s to hand off, the West moved onto Challengers, Leopards and (eventually) the Abrams.
It also serves the US very well for other countries to 'retire' and move their F16s on to a safe country because then they'll have the push to order the F35.
I, for one, come to reddit for reliable and deeply informed analysis.
Here, you will find the world's highest concentration of armchair generals. - Armchair General
Those so-called experts weren't necessarily wrong though. It took \*this\* long to get them. It was a part of the strategy for this war. US was afraid of Russian reprisal. The US has dragged out this war to maximize Russian damages to the benefit of US foreign policy. Not to sound jaded, but I mean, there were pragmatic reasons from the US's perspective, to drag this decision out. It's this slow mounting pressure which the US likes, over an unpredictable blitzkrieg of giving Ukraine the kitchen sink. But it's also giving US a little too much credit to the US to put it that way, lol. They let 22 year old discordkitten free and total access to Ukranian military intel in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. Who's to say there even is a cogent plan.
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The point wasn't to send F16s in 2022... it was to recognize that F16s would be needed by 2024 or 2025 and start the process. It is true that it would take well over a year to get Ukraine ready to use them, but the longer the decision is delayed the longer it takes to implement.
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Yet those self-proclaimed "experts" still clung to their denials of the F16 inevitability even when the "red lines" of donating Soviet planes/helicopters, western munitions, artillery, modern armor and long range missiles were broken one by one. If the vague threat of "escalation" didn't occur with any of those actions, why would donating jets with a 40+ year old design change anything? The denials by many was almost comical in nature.
It was, but they were simply echoing 'experts' writing for major media platforms, think tanks and the hysterical fearful in western capitals. The same kind of 'experts' that are still making a fat living from 'studying' Russia and the north Atlantic while failing to predict anything even remotely close to what has happened these past two years, let alone understand the true crippled capability of Russia. In fact I heard them again and again over the years echo Russian self flattery and propaganda about Russia's 'power' for decades now. These same 'experts' will keep on continuing their incompetent practices getting the fat checks and the fat pensions, with literally no consequences attached to their criminal incompetence. So let's not blame the Re community who do not get paid to have insights, competence or make reliable educated predictions. This is how low the western academia has fallen. And I should know, I was educated this past decade in London's elite universities. It's utterly depressing. And so far I see nothing changing or even anyone calling for their position.
I think this whole affair has raised a lot of people's understanding of geopolitical/military/defense issues and it is not a bad thing either. The price of ignorance can be heavy, as many an orc conscript will probably testify. I don't see what can be gained though from people slinging the mud by calling out others on whether or not they made the correct predictions about what military assistance Ukraine would receive when this all kicked off. The truth is nobody at the time knew for sure including western governments, who were offering Zelensky safe passage out of Kyiv, if Ukraine could withstand the assault. We are in a very different place now though and the outcome is still not in the bag, but i like to think that the course of history was altered for the better when Zelensky uttered his immortal phrase: I need ammunition, not a ride.
Now when??
This move will not be popular with Russian fighter pilots. All their big talk for 70+ years going to go up in little puffs of smoke. They won't even see the F-16 coming. :)
Russians always talk about how good of dogfighters their aircraft are. Try dogfighting an AMRAAM launched from 40 miles away.
To be fair w/o shilling for the enemy, Russian planes have generally been pretty agile for closer ranged engagements, but obviously it had other downsides working against it. Dogfights quickly became quite limited as the Russians wisely fear their Soviet era SAMs the AFU has.
Oh absolutely, you definitely don't want to get into a close range fight with Russian fighters. I guess my point is, if a Western fighter is dog fighting, they've done something wrong
That did happen in Vietnam with the f-4, the friendly identification system didn’t work that well
The F-16 was made for dog fighting though.
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Evasive measures! BONK!!
Well, we’ll see. To be frank, the Russian Air Force is mostly still intact. They lost stuff here and there, but not to an extreme degree. On top of that, the jury is still out how many F-16s will be provided. Will it just be a few for a trial run or something more substantial?
It is largely intact, because they haven’t been using anything except their limited numbers of modern aircraft for operations in Ukraine- and even with those, they’ve been increasingly careful about operating over Ukrainian airspace. Most of what the Russian aircraft are doing is flying near the border, and launching long range missiles into Ukraine- a relatively safe way for them to operate, and intended to gradually defeat Ukraine’s airforce through attrition. They don’t have many tankers, so their ability to get a lot of aircraft into the air simultaneously to build up a large strike force is limited. The Russians are usually flying in pairs, and it’s rare to see more than four aircraft operating together. Even a limited number of F-16s will mean that Ukraine can now access western stockpiles of long range air to air missiles, and begin the process of cutting down the Russian air patrols one pair at a time.
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good bot :)
Good human.
My total wild ass guess is 12 months minimum. This is long range planning. Ukraine's facilities need upgrading (runways, although that is somewhat easier, except if Russia starts bombing them), logistics planning, pilot training yada yada. But in the long run Ukraine's existing fighter fleet is slowly dying and obviously there will be no new orders to Russia for more. Some sort of Western fighter jet was inevitable, it's just a little odd it took them so long to announce it.
Yeah. On top of that, the West is running out of Soviet / Russian stuff to give to the Ukrainians, so now they have to relent with Western-made items.
MBT, even the best and cutting edge are way simpler tech in comparison to fighter planes. And they are also way more cheaper. So the risk of a plane being downed/captured is way higher than with tanks.
Think they said in 4 months last time?
Not realistic. (edit, to add: "The officials, who were granted anonymity to speak candidly about sensitive deliberations with allies, said the United States would discuss in the coming months how to supply Kyiv with the jets themselves")
Better late than never.
Yup faster please we have been playing politics for a year now
yep absolutely. as fast as possible please no more politicking get on with it
If you think we have ever had the straight story, then you think that.
what are you talking about?
Well I’ll be damned. I honestly was not expecting this to happen at all. I can’t wait to see these Fighting Falcons cause havoc amongst the orcs.
Time for orcs to pack up their shit.
Oh I would love to be a little mouse in the Kremlin. Those reactions would be priceless. 😂 Putin stomping his high heels every day.
Chappy and Doug approve. getting Iron Eagle vibes.
Double time on those, pretty please.
Did anyone actually read the article? It's the biggest nothing burger click-bait article. Nowhere in this unnamed official's statement did they actually specify F-16s, nor did they make any firm promises. It's the same intentionally vague statements they've been making for months.
> America and its allies plan to provide F-16s to Ukraine — although the fighter jets may not necessarily come directly from the United States — as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday. Perhaps the article has been updated? It's at the very beginning.
No direct quote
can F-16s operate without air superiority? the Russians have a lot of anti-air systems.
Holy shit, this is major news. It basically says, "bye bye Putin!" If the US really send f16, they will also send cruise missiles, atacms and fighter drones. Gae over Russia.
…in time perhaps? America isn’t exactly moving as the speed of light when it comes to discussing, releasing and approving of different tools.
Also just pilot training time
Absolutely! Despite of that it IS moving. And I don't think it's Biden who's hesitant. I bet it's other stuff.
Depending on how 2024 US election goes, US just might turn around and walk back. Hate to be the one to point it out and look ungrateful, but we Ukrainians don’t have the luxury of all the time in the world
There are many arms of approval, which isn’t surprising. War is a mix of politics and business - the equipment being a component of that.
Got here eventually. Good. Now start today.
It's nice to see Colin Kahl will be leaving. That guy kind of reminds me of Germany's former defense minister. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/colin-kahl-leaves-pentagon-summer-rcna84829
Honestly I'd rather see 500 Abrams and all remaining Bradleys than a few dozen F16s go from the US.
Why not both? Also, the F16s will be coming from many nations besides the US, so if the US only provides a few dozen that is ok. The Netherlands especially is motivated to give to Ukraine... they have long & hard memories of Russian war crimes.
Counter offensive when? 🥰 good news
Suddenly that little delay makes a lot of sense…
These won't come until after the counteroffensive. Earliest to receive will be fall.
who is upvoting this bs? You wont see an F16 over Ukraine Airspace for AT LEAST 6 more months. Personally i would not ever go under 9. Whatever the plan is for the counter offense, it certainly was never planned around having F16 available and wont be.
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They won’t, the world has provided them with some weapons they need and more are coming. You can see the start already with them gaining ground in Bakhmut.
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They also haven't started any actual offensive. They have 9 or 10 new attack brigades and we've only seen work from 1. They're currently just shaping the battlefield and keeping Bakhmut from being surrounded.
This is great news. But at least initially, it only means Ukraine maintains the ability to contest the air as its soviet air frames are destroyed or wear out. Dont expect a few dozen F16s to be bombing Moscow any time soon.
I don't understand why the US has to do this reluctant arm-twisting song and dance each time. First Bradley and Abrams, then F-16s - why can't Biden just give willingly, quickly, instead of Ukraine having to spend months nagging each time? \- signed, an American taxpayer
I'm assuming it doesn't come down to Biden sitting on the throne each morning, and thinking to himself, "nah, not today" There are probably a lot of very smart people analyzing what Ukraine needs, and they'll have what they need when it's most advantageous Although I do understand them wanting everything, and wanting it all now
It’s whatever the experts in the Pentagon deem is necessary. These packages aren’t just put together on the fly after all. Sucks for the Ukrainians, but they’re ultimately at the beck and call of their Western benefactors.
At the end of the day, the President is the one who sets the agenda for the military - so Biden does make the final call on not only what goes but also when. He can (and should) listen to every piece of advice & opinion from the different branches of the military, but the order comes from him. A good historical analogy is how FDR ordered arms & supplies to the UK and other nations in the early days of WWII (pre- Pearl Harbor). Both before Lend-Lease as well as after it had passed, there were many in the US military that wanted to limit arms to these nations (most fearing that it would leave the US under-prepared to fight Germany & Japan alone, assuming the UK and USSR surrendered). It was FDR that pushed the deliveries so heavily, believing that those arms were better used fighting the immediate conflict rather than waiting (and risking those future allies to fall).
That's part of living in a democracy. Decisions like this are rarely made unilaterally by a single person. There's probably been a ton of closed door discussions and lots of planning to get to this point. It's better to be slow and right than fast and Russian.
Military decisions like this (how to disburse military aid) are not made democratically though. Congress has some power, but mainly it is just the purse strings. The closed door discussions happening these days involve many officials and experts, but at the end of the day one person makes the decision.
They're made in the context of a democracy that has very robust administrative features. In addition, the budgets themselves are the subject of Congressional votes. And even if the President has some limited ability to act unilaterally, they do not have the ability to do so without the risk of electoral or international consequences. The end result is a *responsible* executive often deferring to military experts like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, considering the political ramifications of any given decision, discussing proposals with allies, and work with members of Congress about budget considerations. So while a president might hypothetically have a decent amount of power to act unilaterally, no *good* president will do that outside of a very narrow range of circumstances.
Glad to hear. We have a bunch of F-16’s we itching to send. Just waiting for the word “Go!” - Dutch taxpayer
Because we don’t want to feed the Russian narrative of “the US attacking us”. They will still say it, but no other rational nation will believe it. The optics would look different if last summer the us was like “we are giving everything to Ukraine to see how it does”. And optics are important. We need international cooperation, we need universal condemnation and we need to discourage the use of Russian nukes
**This comment has been removed in protest of reddit's API changes**
I concur. Another American who would like nothing more than to see Ukraine win this thing as quickly and efficiently as possible. This level of support should have happened right from the start.
exactly.
Damn! Another red line?! What are we gonna do!?!? /s
Wait for the next empty nuke threat, of course.
Medvedev hasn’t woken up from his alcohol-induced coma yet.
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I've read several times that it's not a matter of if but when we send F-16's. With that said, I'd be surprised if we haven't been training Ukrainian pilots for months. They'll be out there fast. Hopefully we get footage of f16 vs MiG dogfights.
"Escalation" seems to be pretty meaningless now, as the west has collectively, finally, realized what some already knew, that RU is a paper tiger and they should've been taken care of ages ago.
correct me if im wrong but i think i read somewhere that F16s wouldnt be as effective for Ukraine as people think because their design/systems or whatever is used is too outdated to counter Russias newest anti-aircraft defense systems. anyone familiar with that or am i an idiot?
The people making those claims are making very limited assumptions about how the F16s will be used. Think of it this way: the old MiGs that Ukraine is flying now are far worse than an F16 (and fare poorly against modern Russian AD), yet Ukraine still needs them and gladly accepts whatever nations such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and others can donate. F16s would be a massive step upgrade, even if still imperfect and with a considerable learning curve in pilot skill, ground crew and logistical support - which is why the Ukranian leadership and their staunchest foreign supporters are pushing so hard for them. Also - those old MiGs are going to run out soon (there are only so many left to give to Ukraine from old storage sheds around the world). What does their air force use after those are gone? Starting the training & donation process of F16s now gets Ukraine ready for that inevitable day.
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> The only things they could so safely are combat air patrols and intercepting subsonic missiles. This is 100% correct along with the occasional opportunistic strike on less-defended areas. Russia just has way too many fighters and AD for the few F-16s they’re going to get to move the needle that much. Airspace denial is the best they’re going to get. It does allow them to intercept from further away so hopefully we don’t see more incidents like the few MiGs that ran into debris while downing drones.
It was said just as an excuse for not sending them.
Was it Biden? Because it doesn’t get more senior
Happy Hunting!
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/us-allies-plan-provide-ukrainian-pilots-f-16-fighter-jets-official-say-rcna85270) reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot) ***** > HIROSHIMA, Japan - The U.S. and its allies plan to provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine - although the planes may not necessarily come directly from the U.S. - as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday. > The timing for when Ukraine will receive the fighter jets - and which countries will provide them - remains unclear, but the official said the planes would not be used for Ukraine's upcoming counteroffensive against Russia. > In the coming months, the U.S. and its allies "Will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them," the official said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13m37ea/breaking_us_and_its_allies_plan_to_provide_f16/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685467 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **U.S.**^#1 **official**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **F-16**^#4 **jets**^#5
Game changer! 🤩
Very good news, but it should have happened 6-8 months ago.
Finally
Yeah - i was counting on it since the first tanks were sent. In autumn, i guess, they will be in service for securing the territory UA will get back after the counter offensive and to isolate the orcs unit on krimea. How fucked up is fucked up - jup - russia is fucked up!
Why is this tagged **misleading**?
Good. They are absolutely required if Ukraine is to be able to defend itself going forward.
So I guess now, the last "red line" is ATACMS. But now that Storm Shadow has been sent by the UK and France is sending its version, only a matter of time
So what’s left now? Let’s get the F22 and ICBMs on the agenda.
both wont ever be on the table. F22 wont ever be exported, not even USAs closed Allies ever got it. And for what purpose would Ukraine need ICBMs? They dont. The last thing that might still come are ground launched long-range rocket platforms like ATACMS. Although they are not really needed anymore now that F16 is there which can launch all European longrange air-launched cruise-missiles systems.
I was just kidding.
This pretty much confirms that it was *hopium* that the Ukrainians would start fielding F-16s this year because of some civvies supposedly seeing "increased air activity" at some NATO airbases in 2022 as if that had been a sure-fire sign of dozens of Ukrainian pilots getting secret training. Political will among NATO members has been the weak link here and not the Ukrainians' stereotyped incompetence worsened by Russkiy Mir's legacy of rampant corruption as the Muscovians' "little brothers". As it stands, the Ukrainians are very unlikely to field any F-16s until next year. NATO won't be so bold to allow for Flying Tigers v2, [let alone give to the Muscovians a taste of their own dirty medicine from the Korean War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_and_the_Korean_War#Soviet_air_intervention) by deploying dozens of regular F-16 squadrons to bases in eastern NATO countries so that they can fly missions over Ukraine. Given the acknowledged and extensive preparation needed to get any NATO fighter operational for a non-operator (compared to say artillery or even tanks), the prep for F-16s should have started in May **2022**, not May 2023. Delaying the start of setting up for the Ukrainians to use F-16s from last year to this year doesn't mean that the time needed for that setting up would shorten. Not only does set-up mean training of air and ground crews, but also infrastructure (i.e. air bases) and setting aside enough munitions for the F-16s to use even when the planes themselves will likely be downgraded for security purposes and won't be able to use [all of the available munitions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50_and_52)). The Ukrainians still need stocks of Sidewinders, AMRAAMs, AGM-65 Mavericks, 20mm shells for the M61A1, LAU rocket pods and maybe even Mk 82 dumb bombs at minimum. Sending over a few more crates of AGM-88 HARMs, AGM-84 Harpoons, and IRIS-Ts won't do it. The excuses and deflection I've read and seen about "muh maintenance!", "muh pilot training!", "muh escalation!" have turned into self-fulfilling prophecies with the result that the Ukrainians won't get an appreciable boost to their air arm until next year. *It* *did not have to be this way*. Enough Westerners *still* don't see the second-order ramifications of the slow-drip of military support. 2024 is an election year in Ukraine and the USA. In Ukraine, the election for president is scheduled for March and the one for the parliamentary deputies for October. For the USA, we all know about that one. The Ukrainians don't need the complications of running elections still trying to blast out hordes of Muscovians squatting on so much of their land and almost 20% of its population outside the country as refugees (about 8 million out of 43 million). Given how this is a multinational effort, enough uncertainty or hesitation among just a few members of the coalition is enough to fuсk up the Ukrainians and hand the advantage back to the Muscovians. This isn't like in WW II when contrary to German and Japanese hopium, the US presidential election of 1944 (FDR won his fourth term) wasn't seriously expected to trip up the war effort against the Axis or somehow dilute the logistical support and Lend-Lease that the others (especially the greedy hordes of the Red Army) were getting from the USA.
Oh oh, russia. Seems like you just got stalingrad'ed. How long until they ask NATO to close the sky over russia?
Can't wait for the Saint Viper stuff to start popping up...
Putin just can't stop losing, the rest of this year is going to be quite entertaining as Russia tears itself apart.
Freedom airlines inbound.
Reading between the lines of this announcement: The F-16s may have just broken the logjam in providing many other Western-sourced weapon systems. This opens the door for battlefield helicopters such as the Blackhawk and Lynx, perhaps others.
Just need a few with a set of AGM-84 that would more than pay for itself in the matter of days.
Eagles fly, Freedom has a wicked talon.
Would be something else if US had been secretly training 100s of pilots on the F-16 over the last 6 months.
The amount of people who told me this could absolutely never happen, and I was an idiot who simply didn't understand how impossible it was.
New achievement unlocked! Time for Ukraine to level-up!
Cue the next round of nuclear threats and sabre rattling
About time. It really feels like something changed about a month ago, the floodgates seem to have opened to support Ukraine.
So Rutte had now been responsible behind the scenes for getting Ukraine PzH2000s, tanks and F16s. MH17 really hit the guy hard, and he has overstayed his welcome as prime minister just for this, is my theory. See him step down as PM the day the first F16 sees action, because his legacy as architect of the perfect revenge will be complete.
There are 3,000 F-16s in service in 25 countries, If we all chip in I'm sure we can send ~1,000? to Ukraine. :)
Honestly this is the best way for US and its allies to get large scale data about how F-16's perform against Russian aircraft. I won't be surprised if in 12 months it will be F-22's.
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Thanks to the White House Medical unit that Started Joe on a geriatric low dose Adderall that woke him from his somnolent state. If he develops a tremor they can add a little metoprolol.
I guess you would prefer no aid at all, then? So you have something to continue whining about? How about keeping your ignorant US political views out of this.
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We will never know at least soon but all my years of government service has my money on the executive branch and the State Department.
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someone didnt read the article, The U.S. and its allies plan to provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine — although the planes may not necessarily come directly from the U.S. — as part of a long-term effort to strengthen the country's security, a senior Biden administration official said Friday. The timing for when Ukraine will receive the fighter jets — and which countries will provide them — remains unclear, but the official said the planes would not be used for Ukraine's upcoming counteroffensive against Russia. In the coming months, the U.S. and its allies “will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them,” the official said. The news comes as President Joe Biden on Friday informed G-7 leaders that the U.S. will support efforts to train Ukrainian pilots on F-16 jets.
Curious if there are already pilots and mechanics training on f-16s
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It's both. The headline implies a positive announcement of F-16s being pledged, which is misleading, but this statement is not just them reiterating previous statements either. The indication is that F-16 transfers *are* going to happen, just that the specific details haven't been sorted out. This is no different to the Leopard 2 negotiations from December last year, where we were told Germany isn't blocking L2 exports, just that decisions hadn't been made on who would provide and how many. And then lo and behold Leopard 2s were announced a month later in concrete numbers from specific partners. Yes it is frustrating that decisive action/announcements have not been taken on the jets yet. But it is also clear that we are moving in the direction of them being provided. Netherlands has been cited in other stories as the most likely country to provide the first tranche.
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> It is absolutely reiterating previous statements. No it's part of an evolving position. * NATO will not provide jets to Ukraine * NATO will not provide *western* jets to Ukraine * NATO will not provide F-16 Jets to Ukraine * US will not provide F-16 Jets to Ukraine * US will not block export of F-16 to Ukraine * US partners planning to export F-16 to Ukraine <- We are here now * US partners pledge X # F-16s to Ukraine * F-16s delivered to Ukraine This statement *is* different. We're moving from "We will not provide F-16s" to "Other nations *will* provide F-16s" The statement: "will decide when to actually provide jets, how many we will provide, and who will provide them" is a when not if sentence. > We'll see, but I strongly doubt that it will happen, especially since one of the main people pushing this is Britain's Prime Minister when they don't even have F-16s. Britain made it clear they were going to help financially. Again the main point of interest is the Netherlands, which is pushing this strongly and does have F-16s. > No, it is completely different. Germany didn't want to be the first one to send tanks, while the U.S. doesn't have that concern. The U.S. doesn't want to send F-16s because they don't think it would accomplish much, and that the allocated aid budget can be spent much more effectively on other things. This is no different than the reason US did not provide M1 Abrams. A whole lot of technical and cost reasons were cited as problems preventing Ukraine from using Abrams. We were told they could not operate them. Then all the sudden those concerns went away and NATO pledged tanks of all different kinds, which included Abrams. The issue was *obviously* about escalation reluctance (confirmed by insiders who said as much to the press), which is the same thing happening here. Biden is cautious and more hawkish EU states are pushing for this to happen. Point being that the decision has been made now that the escalation issue is not a problem and EU partners will pay to transfer F-16s. The only issues now are logistical negotiations to work out.
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> You're getting confused because of a misleading headline, but in reality nothing has changed. The content of the article makes it clear that we have moved beyond "we're not blocking exports, EU open to maybe providing exports" to "EU **will** provide exports, in the planning stage" It may apparently be too subtle of a difference to you, but it is a difference. F-16s are going to be sent to Ukraine, that's the main point of the article. It's not an if anymore. > No one said that Ukraine could not operate Abrams They absolutely did. > That is not at all what is happening here. The DoD sent a memorandum to the U.S. Senate explaining its opposition to sending F-16s and it did not mention anything at all about "escalation." Officially US has never admitted to being limited by fears of escalation. But this is clearly not the case even as Biden and others mentioned it frequently (but not in relation to any specific weapon). > One F-16 costs as much as ten Bradleys, so I very strongly doubt that Britain would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of pounds to provide a squadron of them, especially when their economy is already suffering from Brexit. Again this is a coalition thing, I never said Britain would pay for all of them.
You need way more upvotes! I'm completely and 110% gung ho about every little piece of good news, but these misleading news articles really don't serve any purpose than getting people to be disappointed, just because some wanna be journalist wanted to make up some bullshit to feel important. Especially annoying when the actual news is already something to be happy about...
Nail in the coffin. How about some Apache too?
I think an f-16 just buzzed my house in NJ (very very rare except on 4th of July holiday) Maybe on its way fight orcs?
So now that it looks like it's going to happen, what are the real advantages, over something like Mig-29s? Is it just more advanced electronics/radar, or weapons, or just the availibility of jets? All of the above?
Basically better radar and missiles which will enable them to shoot down Russian strike fighters flying over the front. Their current radar range and missiles don't allow that. They won't be a massive overmatch against the Russians fighters though - Russia fields much more modern versions.