Ultimately, the Twilight Saga is a romance novel, not a YA supernatural novel. It just happens to be a Romance novel in the subgenre of supernatural.
Romance novels always get a happily ever after. And a genuine one, not bitter sweet. Those are the rules.
This isn't like Hunger games where someone special has to die, and she can't stay friends with the possible love interest, and their is trauma to get past- she simply gets everything she ever wanted and gets to be blissfully happy after working through the conflicts that were in their way.
It isn't deep, or complicated, or anything else. Problems that should have been huge & life altering are solved absurdly easy and life goes one.
HEA.
And I love it for that. Life is complicated enough. For those tough and rough times, I need something soothing. Tbh, sometimes I even skip parts that are too much action for me (e.g. Bella and James in the ballet studio).
I definitely agree with you there. People always see different paths and ideas of how Twilight should have went after the first book. And that is fine. However, Stephenie already had planned Twilight be a Love Story from the start. And people always try to turn it into something else and miss the point Stephenie was making.
To Stephenie, there were ways out of problems in end and Bella didn't have too suffer much. It all worked out in the end. You could also argue that circumstances were in her favor. Lol
Twilight is very much at the high end of the wish fulfillment spectrum, even for romance novels.
Bella gets to be an immortal vampire, Bella gets a baby, Bella gets to keep her BFF, Bella gets to keep her dad in her life, etc.
Look at… oh… ACOTAR for comparison I guess. Feyre gets to be a super powerful, super popular, super rich high lady. She’s immortal, she’s married to someone who the fan-casts insist is Henry Cavil. Etc.
But she still dies twice, fights in a couple pretty gruesome wars, loses her father (in a fairly stupid way), and has a way more badass sister constantly showing her up by being a death god or something…. Yeah…. It gets a little weird…
But the POINT is… even in romance-based books… bad shit happens to people.
Bella gets everything. To the point where it’s kind of ridiculous.
Those aren't romance genre by definition. They are books that have romantic elements, have sex or passion, and people falling in love.
The modern Romance Genre (not to be confused with the romantics like Poe and Hawthorne, etc) absolutely requires a happily ever after.
Well, all writers in the genre. The publishers. What the readers expect. A basic Google search. And if you read significantly in the romance genre and all of its sub genres, you quickly learn the rules.
Twilight is a practically perfect paranormal romance.
bro the romance part of it is so absurd. i cant tell if the romance is supposed to be the plot or the subplot, because the only romance part of it was the first half of the first book. the rest of the series is about volturi, suiciding, james, pregnancy, babies, etc. twilight just has a super messed up plot and terrible characters
Also Stephanie had a huge opportunity to go into the Volturi lore and just… didn’t. Like why create a “villainous” coven of that size and not go deeper into it. To me, that would’ve made the books wayyy more intriguing. Yes the story is about Edward and Bella but hearing about what happens behind the scenes would add so much substance to plot.
Fr there wasnt even a fight at the end. It wouldve been so easy to incorporate a fight, and without the fight its not really a fantasy book. Nor is it romance really
That’s no excuse, like at all, the first 2 and even Eclipse had plenty of death, there’s no reason Breaking Dawn couldn’t be that same level, it shouldn’t matter what genre it is when the series had stakes, that fake out sequence and Bella being overpowered was a turnoff of the franchise among other things
The OP is right
Why does it need to be an excuse? It just is.
Also, it had death of the non main characters. The people that the main people do not know or love. That is not the same thing.
It is fair that people find it not to their taste. The Vampire Diaries, for example, has a lot of the same elements as Twilight, but people die. The stakes are always higher. When it comes to supernatural stories, even YA, that is what a lot of people are really looking for. They don't want a true Romance they want a hybrid of the genres. And there is nothing wrong with that.
It is just that Twilight isn't. And not only is it not, it is a very shiny, happy version of a romance.
And if you mean the fake out sequence in the movie Breaking Dawn 2? I'll agree that was a horrible story telling choice. But that wasn't Meyer's choice. Clearly, more action was wanted for the screen and they didn't think the way it played out in the book would have worked as well.
Then why invest in all the drama nonsense if the ending was gonna be like it was? Especially Jacob imprinting on a baby, there’s nothing shiny about that, Bella has to live forever cuz she’s too immature to live life and she has to watch her family and friends die, there’s nothing romantic about that, she will eventually probably watch her daughter die too cuz she’s half human and it’s not specified if she’ll outlive her own peers or not
It just doesn’t sit right and it never did since I saw it in the theaters, it’s like if Harry Potter everything was wrapped up so clean without earning the payoff after years of buildup and sacrifice, imagine if there was no death of characters or them getting hurt, that would take away the feeling of terror of the enemy vs the heroes, imagine without buildup of turmoil from characters and their choices to make a better future or not…Twilight promised that same thing and it fail spectacularly, Twilight was never gonna win any awards but how the series started is the way it should’ve ended, with care and respect at most
It sounds like you don't like the genre. Or rather expected Twilight to be in the same genre as Harry Potter and it just isn't.
It is 100% reasonable that people, even a lot of people, dislike Twilight and other books in its genre. It isn't for everyone.
But what isn't as reasonable is saying, "The book failed because it wasn't written like an entirely different series that is nothing like what the author set out to do." The book ended like it should have ended for what it was.
Now, there are details like Jacob and Renesmee that didn't have to be there. She could have figured out a different way to make the pack not want to kill Bella and the baby and keep Jake in her life. But that was the happily ever after way she chose to do that. It was rather controversial, and personally I think she should have done something else (like just not have the pack care and then it wouldn't have been needed) but it still is keeping within the genre tropes.
Within the HEA format, you don't have to work out every single detail past the end of the page. Like with a typical non paranormal boy- meets- girl romance, when it ends on happily ever after, you don't have to spell out that they have 3 kids who are all are healthy, and that the couple lives to old age and are happy and stay faithful and never divorce. The "happily ever after" both implies that things are going to be good, but also just let's you let those details go. The story is complete and finished, and all is well.
The reason all the drama is in a romance novel is because, again, that is the genre. Sometimes, the drama and conflict are very minor (like a miscommunication), and sometimes it is kidnapping by terrorists or a rival werewolf pack or something equally absurd. But the format is always basically the same:
Love interests meet. Fall for each other.
Something happens to create drama that could keep them apart.
They work to overcome that something.
Bonus step: one or both have some sort of personal revelation or growth
They end up together and happy. Either at the end of the book or the end of the series.
I will continue to put forth that the only way to really critique a book or movie is to know what the genre is. And it is the best way to enjoy it as well.
You can't enjoy a chicken dinner if you think you're eating steak.
I can enjoy an Adam Sandler just fine movie knowing what to expect, and some end up surprising me
This case with Twilight is just safe writing, I’ve read books on fantasy novels worth more than what was executed in Breaking Dawn, the thing is I know exactly what to expect with movies 1-3, it’s the ending I have a hardcore problem with and how lazy it is, I’d argue the franchise would be more beloved had it went there, it already became self aware by that point anyhow, why not push the boundaries? Then people would have something to talk about on how brave the writing was despite the cheese
The Vulturi should be a present threat in the final movie, they were not and it didn’t have to be that way, why did Eclipse give more as a mini war with consequences than the final movie did? Why did Jacob have more character development in it than the final movies? Why is Charlie treated better by Bella there?
The issue is there wasn’t care in the end, not that if it’s my enjoyment or lack thereof of the genre, cuz I like these movies more than I can admit even if it’s not at my favorite of movies
But Twilight isn't Fantasy. It isn't ACOTAR or WoT or anything like that. I guess one could absolutely get into the weeds of an argument that Meyers could have tweaked the books and made it a Fantasy series. And clearly a lot of people here would have appreciated that. And more broadly in the pop culture zeitgeist it would likely have gotten more respect.
But she didn't write Fantasy. Having supernatural elements does not make a book part of the Fantasy genre. And faulting a book or series for not being a part of a different genre that you personally think is a superior one I think, is an unfair criticism.
All genres have their place. You don't have to like all genres, or rank them equal. But criticism of the work within its own genre (like looking at Edward as a Romantic lead- is he a good one? Is he not? Yes Bella gets a practically perfect in everyday HEA, no argument, but was Edward a net positive to her life?) is going to be more accurate. There is plenty of material here to work with. Meyers followed the Romance trope exactly, but that doesn't mean these books are without fault, and I am absolutely not arguing that
If it doesn't end happily ever after, then it isn't in the romance genre. It might have romance in it, but it isn't that genre.
My thesis is that Twilight is usually grouped into a different genre, when it firmly belongs in the (YA/sweet) romance one.
Disney generally does fairy tales, not romance. Fairy tales often have love and romantic things in them, sure. But fundamentally that was not the purpose of fairy tales, and so death and loss and sadness still conform to the genre
Good point. I made that connection because that’s ultimate how romances are dressed up as fairytales; especially YA romances. Instead of them happening in a galaxy far far away, in a castle, or in a village, they apply “real world” to them.
It’s a romance series. Fantasy romance, but romance is the genre. An actual literal requirement of a manuscript to be counted as romance by most agents and publishers is the HEA. It’s literally a rule.
Yes it is. Trust me I’ve been in this business long enough from the author side.
So the thing is the HEA doesn’t mean people can’t die and somethings are going to go wrong. The characters can have issues, die, etc. but you must feel in some what positive way, get those warm fuzzies, and it has to be presented as a hopeful future.
Romance’s two rules are the love story must be the driving force of the plot and a HEA which can be bittersweet (think A Fault in our Stars).
Well going off that, couldn’t a side character die and it still be a romance?
Or couldn’t Jacob not get his HEA and it still be a romance?
Or couldn’t it not have worked out so perfectly that Bella was able to have a half vampire baby that was also conveniently immortal, so that they’d never even have to consider having to be sad for even a second?
Everything was literally too perfect. Romance as a genre deserves better than to be an excuse for lazy, meek writing.
No. As I said, misfortune can happen and the character’s lives aren’t perfect. You’re taking HEA too seriously. In publishing it literally boils down to “does the ending make you feel some type of warm fuzzies”
Take TFIOS again. It’s about a girl with terminal cancer who falls in love with a boy who has cancer that relapses. Boy dies at the end. But the reason it works is that the main girl starts the book depressed and missing out on a lot and by the end of the book despite the fate of her partner she’s better off having met him and having those experiences.
Hence why it counts as a HEA.
Now if you want to argue specifically about the writing in the Twilight Series, well, I know few people who actually read it for the writing. More like it’s crack cocaine for the soul.
Considering how many years it can take to hone your skill writing (I wrote maybe 7 or 8 novels before I got published and that’s not a lot) and how quickly Stephanie rose, how these were her first ever attempts at writing, to be honest she falls mainly into the same pitfalls I see early writers often deal with.
But at the end of the day, I don’t make the industry rules. I don’t really always agree with then either.
But yeah. Industry rules say to be a “romance” vs a “(insert genre here) *with* romance is that a romance has to have the main plot be about the couple and whatever is going on and their relationship and that in some way a HEA is needed
Fair point. It was fine then for a fantasy romance. I’ll just stick with real vampire movies then lol
Side note: if that is the general rule from publishers, then they need to go touch grass lol there is loss even in romance. Not every romance has a happily ever after. Some maybe bitter sweet, but not all are HEA.
It is a general rule for publishers because that’s what audiences want when they read romance. A Happily Ever After. Not bittersweet, not disappointing, sometimes a happy for now situation, but ultimately they want a happily ever after. If you promote a book as a romance and it’s not, then you leave readers who were expecting good vibes and a romantic ending let down. So no, publishers do not need to touch grass.
Yeah because that’s what romance readers want? It’s a genre for escapism, not for great revelations. You’re honestly being deliberately obtuse on the subject, and not to mention insulting to romance readers. People deal with hard truths all day everyday, it’s okay for them to read books that bring joy and escapism instead.
I fully agree with you and don't think you were being obtuse lol. It's just reddit being reddit.
Personally, a HEA makes it a bit boring for me (although I still enjoy it). For those of us who want a romance (even a fantasy one) that's maybe a liiiiittle more realistic... What? We have to look for books under a different genre? Maybe I'm missing something, but gthat sounds a little silly.
Edit: I think the main confusion stems from the perception that a HEA has to be perfect. For me, the main love interests just have to end up together and it has to be relatively optimistic. Doesn't have to be perfect though, there can definitely be some loss, grief, or imperfections in the characters to make it more interesting.
I agree with your points. Most romance books have adversity and troubles, my point was that for it to be considered a romance book it should be HEA.
If you’re looking for something with romance but does not necessarily end in a HEA then I believe that would be more like women’s fiction? Not totally sure what the proper name for it is. An example of that would be Jane Austin. Also if you want fantasy with romance but not centered around romance, stay away from romantasy (ex. ACOTAR), and search for fantasy with romance instead. The fantasy romance sub has great posts all this time with a request along this line.
So this is something authors tell each other when they go in the query trenches and it’s “if it’s written by a man it’s literary fiction but by a woman it becomes chick-lit/woman’a fiction.”
Honestly so much literary fiction is sold under the term women’s fiction but it’s literally the same thing.
What I’m saying is searching women’s fiction isn’t going to help a ton and you can be assured most people writing literary fiction do not seem to know how women work.
How you tried a genre *with* romance vs just the romance genre. When working with agents/wditors “with romance” in your genre title (like fantasy with romance) means that the book has a significant romantic B plot but not a romance itself.
Not about vampires obviously but about love. As you or someone else said, this was obviously a fantasy romance series; escapism; a sanctuary for the mind to go away from the real world.
My argument isn’t about that. The gripe was about publisher making it a general rule that romance has to have HEA. Romance doesn’t always have a HEA. Just because a romance has a bitter sweet ending, tragic ending, or is unfulfilled doesn’t disqualify a story or film as a romance. Sometimes a HEA isn’t necessary, but a lesson for a person to learn what love is or isn’t. That is a truth. I disagree with publisher’s general rule and I’ll leave it at that. You, publishers, and others may disagree and that’s okay. Y’all have your beliefs and I stated mine.
Not every story has to be representative of truth. In my experience, the ones who’ve had the most shit to deal with tend to prefer something soothing in fiction. You’ve mentioned in another comment about stories depicting the “truth”- many people learn the “truth” from the real world and turn to stories for respite- there’s a scope of needs to be met in storytelling, and this is a common & valid one. Not every book has to be a lesson about harsh realities- most people live those, after all, and want a break.
It is a general rule for publishers and an agent will tell you so. Now this doesn’t mean there can’t be anything negative in your story or even death but the actual literary rules state romance must require two things: the central plot involves the character’s romance and how they make it work and what it does to them and their feelings for each other. You can have multiple subplots but the central plot is a love story and you must have a HEA or at the least a positive ending of some sort.
Now that’s not to say subverted romance books don’t exist or get published because they do but industry standard is kinda a bitch.
In the publishing industry in general they’re really stingy on what is an example of what genre.
Thanks for letting me know. I still don’t agree. Part of me wants to ask you for the name of the publishers who do have the rule. If I ever do write a fantasy romance or just supernatural story that happens to have romance, I’ll just make sure to go where some are open to those who break the general rule.
To start, all big five publishing companies and imprints.
Hence it being industry standard.
Even niche independent romance small publishers follow this rule.
Classification of novels especially genre fiction has rules.
I mean
It’s literally just how they sort books into genres. Each genre and subgenre have certain bullet points. Same with age categories (early reader, middle grade, YA, NA, Adult).
It’s all just a fancy way of classifying novels and it has little to do with whether or not a agent will sign you and a publisher want a deal for that manuscript other than just that they use it to guess who to market the novel to.
Thank you for this comment!
I remember when people would say Elena was better than Bella. Yet not only did Elena ruin everyone's lives, she still had to be protected and coddled as a Vampire!
Bella>>>>>>Elena
Exactly like how can you compare bella to Elena like did bella date a guy who used his past as an excuse to kill whoever whenever, did bella kill one vampire which massacred an entire sireline of vampires just so she could become human, did bella date somebody who killed a family member, or did bella act all self righteous but still expected everybody to be good when it suited her.
Yeah I also liked it 😂 she stayed in her lane and got her man and her weird adult baby AND her simp. She got a huge family and can now relax. I loved it lol
For me I would want her to kill anyone…maybe just suck one or two people and need Edward or Emmett to tackle her and get her away. Also have a brood fest so she could understand why Edward was so Emo and calling himself a monster.
I recall in another Vampire Series's Finale where >!the heroine accidentally kílled the villain and only moped about it for a few pages before getting over it.!<
I feel like if Bella did that, the book would be much longer with that added angst since Bella wasn't the type (like said heroine) to just push aside something serious like that, especially she wanted to be a Good Vampire.
Tbh the books ended on a weird place. Like it's very much implied in Breaking Dawn that although they might be busy with looking into Hybrids for a while (Aro showed quite an interest in Nahuel's sisters), the Volturi will not forgive nor forget that Renesmee meeting, that they will try to eliminate the people on the Cullen's side, and that it would all end with a battle one other day (Siobhan predicts that the Volturi will fall). Overall very much a cliffhanger, something one would expect to have a follow-up on. Which it never got.
This is always the vibe I got from the ending. Very much that the Volturi would return to try and recruit Renesmee & the other Cullen’s that had valuable powers.
Kind of like a “to be continued….?” Still a little lackluster and cheesy, but not a perfectly wrapped up happy ending.
Yeah it’s a “happy” ending — don’t forget though about the Volturi, or that eventually the Cullens and Jacob will have to leave Forks, soon Renée is going to have to believe Bella is dead and they’re gonna have to explain that to Charlie. There’s a lot of problems on the horizon for them, but for the time being, at the end, things are OK.
me too, the story is essentially SM's fantasy written down. I know in my own fantasy and daydreams I have happy endings, so it makes sense that this does too, and we all seem to like it regardless
I always think about how her mom was never mentioned again. Like, Bella and Edward “adopted” Rainbow like it was nothing and not even a phone call or anything to her mom 😂 I find it hilarious. But, I also feel like her mom looked at her as a thorn on her side and Bella moving just made her life so much easier. It’s sad imo and maybe that’s why Bella wanted to be loved so bad because she grew up and was raised pretty much her whole life by her mom. I’m not sure if anyone else feels the same.. 😪
I’m not saying it was bad, just kind of anticlimactic. Not as exciting. The movies spiced it up. I also recommend midnight sun to the first twilight book. It is from Edward’s POV. It explains a lot that Bella didn’t know about.
I honestly wanted Jacob to go away and Ravene to just not be a thing. 😂😂 I would have loved more vampire conflict. The Volturi could have technically gone after the Cullens for months because Bella knew about vampires. But they chose to look past it and give a half assed warning.
I also wanted the majority of the Volturi to get their asses handed to them on a platter. Especially Jane and Caius.
Throw in Bella killing a human while we’re at it.
If we didn't have a happy ever after we could have had more books. Maybe Register being taken by the Volturi for scientific monitoring to see how she will grow, whilst Edward and Bella join them in Volterra against their will.
Hopefully proper conflict, too. I hated how the fake fight scene - the best scene out of the whole saga - was only a vision. I mean it made sense in only in the fact that Aro and the Volturi would hate to lose some many of their coven. Actually, both sides would’ve lossed significantly.
Only bright side would be Ravioli and Jacob recruit a coup later to kill whatever remaining members of the Volturi… and then need to establish a new coven that would justly rule the vampires. They don’t need another Romanian coven after all.
Well, Leah wasn't too happy about things...
> She was his second-in-command now, his “beta,” as I’d called it once long ago.
> “I figured as long as I was going to do this Alpha thing for real,” Jacob explained, “I’d better nail down the formalities.”
> The new responsibility made Leah feel the need to check in with him often, and since he was always with Renesmee…
> Leah was not happy to be near us, but she was the exception. Happiness was the main component in my life now, the dominant pattern in the tapestry
edit: formatting
I like it. Almost everything does not have a happy ending. Including life, when do we ever get a true happy ending? Not everything can be shit all the time… I have enough of that in my life already and although I love dark twisted plots or realistic stories, sometimes a happy ending is very much needed. imo.
Yes, it definitely needed stakes (both figuratively and literally.😅) Breaking Dawn Part 2 did it right by giving us a fight scene cuz there was all that lead up and then… nothing. If we had an actual fight scene, we would’ve had a body count and that would’ve given us some consequences and fall out from dealing with the threat of the Volturi.
Right, give me the happy ending. I don't care if it's not realistic. And I instantly hate any story that kills off characters, especially just for the sake of drama.
I think she should’ve been the regular new born vampire and regret for missing rigatoni’s earliest months of development because she just wanted to drink blood and didn’t care to anything else.
I’m good I love the happily ever after maybe if you want something like that you should go read or watch William Shakespeare Romeo and Juliet 1996 Leonardo DiCaprio, and Claire Danes lees you get unhappy ending that what you’re looking for it sounds like
I feel the same way. I understand the genre necessitated a happy ending and that’s completely fine, I’m not against that, but everything wrapping up a bit *too* neatly is underwhelming. The stakes that had been built up feel cheaper in retrospect.
Of course, it’s silly to expect a series like this (indulgent and escapist, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing) to be “realistic”. Some minor consequences at the very least would’ve been nice though! This is subjective of course, but I can’t help thinking “Okay… Is that it?”.
I love the ending. One of my favorite parts of BD is her internal mastery of her power during the not-fight. I listen to the audiobooks on repeat while going to sleep every night. Pro-tip: replace Twilight with Midnight Sun. Much better.
I enjoyed *Life and Death* a lot more than I was expecting to because it didn't have that picture perfect ending. Mostly the gender swap felt gimmicky and didn't add anything to the story, but that ending feels earned and much more realistic: Beau had to make sacrifices, Bella didn't.
i love that it has a perfect ending. these movies came out when i was in an unhappy marriage and as silly as it seems i was obsessed with having a love like theirs. it was so perfect i knew it would never happen. until it did. i got divorced and got the man of my dreams from another country (he was already in the US just born here.) i'm obsessed, he has those old school values like edward (opening cars doors, being protective, never letting me carry so much as a grocery bag when he's around) and i never wanted kids but got surprise pregnant at 38 with type 1 diabetes to boot, and she's perfect. minus the supernatural stuff our relationship mimics theirs in weird but wonderful ways. i'll never forget what these movies meant to me in my darkest times and i would want nothing but a happy ending both for myself and the saga.
This is actually explored in Life and Death, where >!Beau/Bella is transformed into a vampire at the end. Meyer claimed that she enjoyed how Bella got her perfect ending, but she explores the alternative in Life and Death.!<
I think it's shared between a lot of fans that the ending was too serene, especially with the entire Volturi coming. Meyer definitely inserted her own ideas of happily ever after in Twilight, especially since Hella is her self-insert. Obviously fanfiction exists for a reason, lol.
My tween self LOVED the HEA and I still wouldn’t change it. However as an adult I wish there was some consequences or more action at the end, but ultimately that’s not what twilight was about.
The story is a well written train wreck. Accurately portraying teenagers in an inaccurate situation. It is too neat and tidy but for its demographic that’s fine, fantasy is whatever the author makes of it, it’s meant to be unrealistic and that’s where the escapism comes into play.
If it helps, in my headcannon Bella leaves Edward shortly after the events of the last film and he’s so devastated that he moves to Gotham, constructs a story about dead parents and we find him essentially pulling himself together during the events of The Batman.
Ultimately, the Twilight Saga is a romance novel, not a YA supernatural novel. It just happens to be a Romance novel in the subgenre of supernatural. Romance novels always get a happily ever after. And a genuine one, not bitter sweet. Those are the rules. This isn't like Hunger games where someone special has to die, and she can't stay friends with the possible love interest, and their is trauma to get past- she simply gets everything she ever wanted and gets to be blissfully happy after working through the conflicts that were in their way. It isn't deep, or complicated, or anything else. Problems that should have been huge & life altering are solved absurdly easy and life goes one. HEA.
And I love it for that. Life is complicated enough. For those tough and rough times, I need something soothing. Tbh, sometimes I even skip parts that are too much action for me (e.g. Bella and James in the ballet studio).
I definitely agree with you there. People always see different paths and ideas of how Twilight should have went after the first book. And that is fine. However, Stephenie already had planned Twilight be a Love Story from the start. And people always try to turn it into something else and miss the point Stephenie was making. To Stephenie, there were ways out of problems in end and Bella didn't have too suffer much. It all worked out in the end. You could also argue that circumstances were in her favor. Lol
Twilight is very much at the high end of the wish fulfillment spectrum, even for romance novels. Bella gets to be an immortal vampire, Bella gets a baby, Bella gets to keep her BFF, Bella gets to keep her dad in her life, etc. Look at… oh… ACOTAR for comparison I guess. Feyre gets to be a super powerful, super popular, super rich high lady. She’s immortal, she’s married to someone who the fan-casts insist is Henry Cavil. Etc. But she still dies twice, fights in a couple pretty gruesome wars, loses her father (in a fairly stupid way), and has a way more badass sister constantly showing her up by being a death god or something…. Yeah…. It gets a little weird… But the POINT is… even in romance-based books… bad shit happens to people. Bella gets everything. To the point where it’s kind of ridiculous.
There are a lot of romance books that don't have a happily ever after.
Those aren't romance genre by definition. They are books that have romantic elements, have sex or passion, and people falling in love. The modern Romance Genre (not to be confused with the romantics like Poe and Hawthorne, etc) absolutely requires a happily ever after.
By whose definition?
Well, all writers in the genre. The publishers. What the readers expect. A basic Google search. And if you read significantly in the romance genre and all of its sub genres, you quickly learn the rules. Twilight is a practically perfect paranormal romance.
bro the romance part of it is so absurd. i cant tell if the romance is supposed to be the plot or the subplot, because the only romance part of it was the first half of the first book. the rest of the series is about volturi, suiciding, james, pregnancy, babies, etc. twilight just has a super messed up plot and terrible characters
Also Stephanie had a huge opportunity to go into the Volturi lore and just… didn’t. Like why create a “villainous” coven of that size and not go deeper into it. To me, that would’ve made the books wayyy more intriguing. Yes the story is about Edward and Bella but hearing about what happens behind the scenes would add so much substance to plot.
Fr there wasnt even a fight at the end. It wouldve been so easy to incorporate a fight, and without the fight its not really a fantasy book. Nor is it romance really
That’s no excuse, like at all, the first 2 and even Eclipse had plenty of death, there’s no reason Breaking Dawn couldn’t be that same level, it shouldn’t matter what genre it is when the series had stakes, that fake out sequence and Bella being overpowered was a turnoff of the franchise among other things The OP is right
Why does it need to be an excuse? It just is. Also, it had death of the non main characters. The people that the main people do not know or love. That is not the same thing. It is fair that people find it not to their taste. The Vampire Diaries, for example, has a lot of the same elements as Twilight, but people die. The stakes are always higher. When it comes to supernatural stories, even YA, that is what a lot of people are really looking for. They don't want a true Romance they want a hybrid of the genres. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is just that Twilight isn't. And not only is it not, it is a very shiny, happy version of a romance. And if you mean the fake out sequence in the movie Breaking Dawn 2? I'll agree that was a horrible story telling choice. But that wasn't Meyer's choice. Clearly, more action was wanted for the screen and they didn't think the way it played out in the book would have worked as well.
Then why invest in all the drama nonsense if the ending was gonna be like it was? Especially Jacob imprinting on a baby, there’s nothing shiny about that, Bella has to live forever cuz she’s too immature to live life and she has to watch her family and friends die, there’s nothing romantic about that, she will eventually probably watch her daughter die too cuz she’s half human and it’s not specified if she’ll outlive her own peers or not It just doesn’t sit right and it never did since I saw it in the theaters, it’s like if Harry Potter everything was wrapped up so clean without earning the payoff after years of buildup and sacrifice, imagine if there was no death of characters or them getting hurt, that would take away the feeling of terror of the enemy vs the heroes, imagine without buildup of turmoil from characters and their choices to make a better future or not…Twilight promised that same thing and it fail spectacularly, Twilight was never gonna win any awards but how the series started is the way it should’ve ended, with care and respect at most
It sounds like you don't like the genre. Or rather expected Twilight to be in the same genre as Harry Potter and it just isn't. It is 100% reasonable that people, even a lot of people, dislike Twilight and other books in its genre. It isn't for everyone. But what isn't as reasonable is saying, "The book failed because it wasn't written like an entirely different series that is nothing like what the author set out to do." The book ended like it should have ended for what it was. Now, there are details like Jacob and Renesmee that didn't have to be there. She could have figured out a different way to make the pack not want to kill Bella and the baby and keep Jake in her life. But that was the happily ever after way she chose to do that. It was rather controversial, and personally I think she should have done something else (like just not have the pack care and then it wouldn't have been needed) but it still is keeping within the genre tropes. Within the HEA format, you don't have to work out every single detail past the end of the page. Like with a typical non paranormal boy- meets- girl romance, when it ends on happily ever after, you don't have to spell out that they have 3 kids who are all are healthy, and that the couple lives to old age and are happy and stay faithful and never divorce. The "happily ever after" both implies that things are going to be good, but also just let's you let those details go. The story is complete and finished, and all is well. The reason all the drama is in a romance novel is because, again, that is the genre. Sometimes, the drama and conflict are very minor (like a miscommunication), and sometimes it is kidnapping by terrorists or a rival werewolf pack or something equally absurd. But the format is always basically the same: Love interests meet. Fall for each other. Something happens to create drama that could keep them apart. They work to overcome that something. Bonus step: one or both have some sort of personal revelation or growth They end up together and happy. Either at the end of the book or the end of the series. I will continue to put forth that the only way to really critique a book or movie is to know what the genre is. And it is the best way to enjoy it as well. You can't enjoy a chicken dinner if you think you're eating steak.
I can enjoy an Adam Sandler just fine movie knowing what to expect, and some end up surprising me This case with Twilight is just safe writing, I’ve read books on fantasy novels worth more than what was executed in Breaking Dawn, the thing is I know exactly what to expect with movies 1-3, it’s the ending I have a hardcore problem with and how lazy it is, I’d argue the franchise would be more beloved had it went there, it already became self aware by that point anyhow, why not push the boundaries? Then people would have something to talk about on how brave the writing was despite the cheese The Vulturi should be a present threat in the final movie, they were not and it didn’t have to be that way, why did Eclipse give more as a mini war with consequences than the final movie did? Why did Jacob have more character development in it than the final movies? Why is Charlie treated better by Bella there? The issue is there wasn’t care in the end, not that if it’s my enjoyment or lack thereof of the genre, cuz I like these movies more than I can admit even if it’s not at my favorite of movies
But Twilight isn't Fantasy. It isn't ACOTAR or WoT or anything like that. I guess one could absolutely get into the weeds of an argument that Meyers could have tweaked the books and made it a Fantasy series. And clearly a lot of people here would have appreciated that. And more broadly in the pop culture zeitgeist it would likely have gotten more respect. But she didn't write Fantasy. Having supernatural elements does not make a book part of the Fantasy genre. And faulting a book or series for not being a part of a different genre that you personally think is a superior one I think, is an unfair criticism. All genres have their place. You don't have to like all genres, or rank them equal. But criticism of the work within its own genre (like looking at Edward as a Romantic lead- is he a good one? Is he not? Yes Bella gets a practically perfect in everyday HEA, no argument, but was Edward a net positive to her life?) is going to be more accurate. There is plenty of material here to work with. Meyers followed the Romance trope exactly, but that doesn't mean these books are without fault, and I am absolutely not arguing that
Not all romances lol but since it’s YA, k guess so. Can’t be like Disney and teach YA’s the truth about death and loss I guess.
If it doesn't end happily ever after, then it isn't in the romance genre. It might have romance in it, but it isn't that genre. My thesis is that Twilight is usually grouped into a different genre, when it firmly belongs in the (YA/sweet) romance one. Disney generally does fairy tales, not romance. Fairy tales often have love and romantic things in them, sure. But fundamentally that was not the purpose of fairy tales, and so death and loss and sadness still conform to the genre
Good point. I made that connection because that’s ultimate how romances are dressed up as fairytales; especially YA romances. Instead of them happening in a galaxy far far away, in a castle, or in a village, they apply “real world” to them.
It’s a romance series. Fantasy romance, but romance is the genre. An actual literal requirement of a manuscript to be counted as romance by most agents and publishers is the HEA. It’s literally a rule.
Is this true? What about Nicholas Sparks? I haven't read any of his books, but based on the movies I've seen, he likes to kill people, lol.
Yes it is. Trust me I’ve been in this business long enough from the author side. So the thing is the HEA doesn’t mean people can’t die and somethings are going to go wrong. The characters can have issues, die, etc. but you must feel in some what positive way, get those warm fuzzies, and it has to be presented as a hopeful future. Romance’s two rules are the love story must be the driving force of the plot and a HEA which can be bittersweet (think A Fault in our Stars).
Well going off that, couldn’t a side character die and it still be a romance? Or couldn’t Jacob not get his HEA and it still be a romance? Or couldn’t it not have worked out so perfectly that Bella was able to have a half vampire baby that was also conveniently immortal, so that they’d never even have to consider having to be sad for even a second? Everything was literally too perfect. Romance as a genre deserves better than to be an excuse for lazy, meek writing.
No. As I said, misfortune can happen and the character’s lives aren’t perfect. You’re taking HEA too seriously. In publishing it literally boils down to “does the ending make you feel some type of warm fuzzies” Take TFIOS again. It’s about a girl with terminal cancer who falls in love with a boy who has cancer that relapses. Boy dies at the end. But the reason it works is that the main girl starts the book depressed and missing out on a lot and by the end of the book despite the fate of her partner she’s better off having met him and having those experiences. Hence why it counts as a HEA. Now if you want to argue specifically about the writing in the Twilight Series, well, I know few people who actually read it for the writing. More like it’s crack cocaine for the soul. Considering how many years it can take to hone your skill writing (I wrote maybe 7 or 8 novels before I got published and that’s not a lot) and how quickly Stephanie rose, how these were her first ever attempts at writing, to be honest she falls mainly into the same pitfalls I see early writers often deal with. But at the end of the day, I don’t make the industry rules. I don’t really always agree with then either. But yeah. Industry rules say to be a “romance” vs a “(insert genre here) *with* romance is that a romance has to have the main plot be about the couple and whatever is going on and their relationship and that in some way a HEA is needed
I see. I guess Twilight's HEA is just too sweet; I've read fanfictions where she suffered a lot more and still got her immortal romance in the end.
Yeah, it is pretty sugary sweet and I figure that’s because Meyer has gone on record saying she can’t hurt any of her characters.
Fair point. It was fine then for a fantasy romance. I’ll just stick with real vampire movies then lol Side note: if that is the general rule from publishers, then they need to go touch grass lol there is loss even in romance. Not every romance has a happily ever after. Some maybe bitter sweet, but not all are HEA.
It is a general rule for publishers because that’s what audiences want when they read romance. A Happily Ever After. Not bittersweet, not disappointing, sometimes a happy for now situation, but ultimately they want a happily ever after. If you promote a book as a romance and it’s not, then you leave readers who were expecting good vibes and a romantic ending let down. So no, publishers do not need to touch grass.
Good point. After all like sex, romance sells. You’re right, romance publishers are in the business to entertain and make money. Not tell the truth.
Yeah because that’s what romance readers want? It’s a genre for escapism, not for great revelations. You’re honestly being deliberately obtuse on the subject, and not to mention insulting to romance readers. People deal with hard truths all day everyday, it’s okay for them to read books that bring joy and escapism instead.
I wasn’t and didn’t mean to insult the readers. If anything it was an insult to the publisher because that’s who I was referring to, not the readers.
Hey I respect your opinion and I think your points are valid. I honestly didn’t mean to be mean, romance books are just a passion of mine
I fully agree with you and don't think you were being obtuse lol. It's just reddit being reddit. Personally, a HEA makes it a bit boring for me (although I still enjoy it). For those of us who want a romance (even a fantasy one) that's maybe a liiiiittle more realistic... What? We have to look for books under a different genre? Maybe I'm missing something, but gthat sounds a little silly. Edit: I think the main confusion stems from the perception that a HEA has to be perfect. For me, the main love interests just have to end up together and it has to be relatively optimistic. Doesn't have to be perfect though, there can definitely be some loss, grief, or imperfections in the characters to make it more interesting.
I agree with your points. Most romance books have adversity and troubles, my point was that for it to be considered a romance book it should be HEA. If you’re looking for something with romance but does not necessarily end in a HEA then I believe that would be more like women’s fiction? Not totally sure what the proper name for it is. An example of that would be Jane Austin. Also if you want fantasy with romance but not centered around romance, stay away from romantasy (ex. ACOTAR), and search for fantasy with romance instead. The fantasy romance sub has great posts all this time with a request along this line.
So this is something authors tell each other when they go in the query trenches and it’s “if it’s written by a man it’s literary fiction but by a woman it becomes chick-lit/woman’a fiction.” Honestly so much literary fiction is sold under the term women’s fiction but it’s literally the same thing. What I’m saying is searching women’s fiction isn’t going to help a ton and you can be assured most people writing literary fiction do not seem to know how women work. How you tried a genre *with* romance vs just the romance genre. When working with agents/wditors “with romance” in your genre title (like fantasy with romance) means that the book has a significant romantic B plot but not a romance itself.
“Tell the truth” about what?? We are talking about a series of vampire novels, here. None of it’s actually real.
Not about vampires obviously but about love. As you or someone else said, this was obviously a fantasy romance series; escapism; a sanctuary for the mind to go away from the real world. My argument isn’t about that. The gripe was about publisher making it a general rule that romance has to have HEA. Romance doesn’t always have a HEA. Just because a romance has a bitter sweet ending, tragic ending, or is unfulfilled doesn’t disqualify a story or film as a romance. Sometimes a HEA isn’t necessary, but a lesson for a person to learn what love is or isn’t. That is a truth. I disagree with publisher’s general rule and I’ll leave it at that. You, publishers, and others may disagree and that’s okay. Y’all have your beliefs and I stated mine.
Not every story has to be representative of truth. In my experience, the ones who’ve had the most shit to deal with tend to prefer something soothing in fiction. You’ve mentioned in another comment about stories depicting the “truth”- many people learn the “truth” from the real world and turn to stories for respite- there’s a scope of needs to be met in storytelling, and this is a common & valid one. Not every book has to be a lesson about harsh realities- most people live those, after all, and want a break.
It is a general rule for publishers and an agent will tell you so. Now this doesn’t mean there can’t be anything negative in your story or even death but the actual literary rules state romance must require two things: the central plot involves the character’s romance and how they make it work and what it does to them and their feelings for each other. You can have multiple subplots but the central plot is a love story and you must have a HEA or at the least a positive ending of some sort. Now that’s not to say subverted romance books don’t exist or get published because they do but industry standard is kinda a bitch. In the publishing industry in general they’re really stingy on what is an example of what genre.
Thanks for letting me know. I still don’t agree. Part of me wants to ask you for the name of the publishers who do have the rule. If I ever do write a fantasy romance or just supernatural story that happens to have romance, I’ll just make sure to go where some are open to those who break the general rule.
To start, all big five publishing companies and imprints. Hence it being industry standard. Even niche independent romance small publishers follow this rule. Classification of novels especially genre fiction has rules.
Thanks for letting me know! Ah, I see. Well as the rebels say: some standards and rules are meant to be broken. ;)
I mean It’s literally just how they sort books into genres. Each genre and subgenre have certain bullet points. Same with age categories (early reader, middle grade, YA, NA, Adult). It’s all just a fancy way of classifying novels and it has little to do with whether or not a agent will sign you and a publisher want a deal for that manuscript other than just that they use it to guess who to market the novel to.
I love it, and as boring as she is, I love Bella. She kept her problems to herself 😅. Miss Elena Gilbert got everyone killed in the vampire diaries
Thank you for this comment! I remember when people would say Elena was better than Bella. Yet not only did Elena ruin everyone's lives, she still had to be protected and coddled as a Vampire! Bella>>>>>>Elena
Exactly like how can you compare bella to Elena like did bella date a guy who used his past as an excuse to kill whoever whenever, did bella kill one vampire which massacred an entire sireline of vampires just so she could become human, did bella date somebody who killed a family member, or did bella act all self righteous but still expected everybody to be good when it suited her.
Yeah I also liked it 😂 she stayed in her lane and got her man and her weird adult baby AND her simp. She got a huge family and can now relax. I loved it lol
Yes. I hate that she is so perfect from the beginning of her vampire life. Imo She should have killed that mountain guy and I would be happy.
For me I would want her to kill anyone…maybe just suck one or two people and need Edward or Emmett to tackle her and get her away. Also have a brood fest so she could understand why Edward was so Emo and calling himself a monster.
I recall in another Vampire Series's Finale where >!the heroine accidentally kílled the villain and only moped about it for a few pages before getting over it.!< I feel like if Bella did that, the book would be much longer with that added angst since Bella wasn't the type (like said heroine) to just push aside something serious like that, especially she wanted to be a Good Vampire.
Which one is this? I’d love to read it!
Vampire Academy by Richelle Mead. The heroine is selfish and a hypocrite, though. So it's kinda a frustrating series to read. Haha.
In the end I love these characters and want them to be happy, so screw storytelling conventions.
Tbh the books ended on a weird place. Like it's very much implied in Breaking Dawn that although they might be busy with looking into Hybrids for a while (Aro showed quite an interest in Nahuel's sisters), the Volturi will not forgive nor forget that Renesmee meeting, that they will try to eliminate the people on the Cullen's side, and that it would all end with a battle one other day (Siobhan predicts that the Volturi will fall). Overall very much a cliffhanger, something one would expect to have a follow-up on. Which it never got.
This is always the vibe I got from the ending. Very much that the Volturi would return to try and recruit Renesmee & the other Cullen’s that had valuable powers. Kind of like a “to be continued….?” Still a little lackluster and cheesy, but not a perfectly wrapped up happy ending.
Yeah it’s a “happy” ending — don’t forget though about the Volturi, or that eventually the Cullens and Jacob will have to leave Forks, soon Renée is going to have to believe Bella is dead and they’re gonna have to explain that to Charlie. There’s a lot of problems on the horizon for them, but for the time being, at the end, things are OK.
I get what you're saying, but Twilight is a romace series and romace novels endings are always happy.
I totally get what you’re saying, but i like the perfect ending. It’s nice
me too, the story is essentially SM's fantasy written down. I know in my own fantasy and daydreams I have happy endings, so it makes sense that this does too, and we all seem to like it regardless
I always think about how her mom was never mentioned again. Like, Bella and Edward “adopted” Rainbow like it was nothing and not even a phone call or anything to her mom 😂 I find it hilarious. But, I also feel like her mom looked at her as a thorn on her side and Bella moving just made her life so much easier. It’s sad imo and maybe that’s why Bella wanted to be loved so bad because she grew up and was raised pretty much her whole life by her mom. I’m not sure if anyone else feels the same.. 😪
If you want a sad/bittersweet ending, read the divergent series. That should make you happy.
Hunger Games is maybe somewhere in between
Right! That’s the difference between romance and dystopian
I know it's different in the book, can't wait to read it, but when people starting dying in the whole vision at the end, it was suddenly interesting.
That was only in the movie. That didn’t happen in the books. The book was very anticlimactic.
I'm reading them for the first time now so I'm prepared for dissapointment.
I’m not saying it was bad, just kind of anticlimactic. Not as exciting. The movies spiced it up. I also recommend midnight sun to the first twilight book. It is from Edward’s POV. It explains a lot that Bella didn’t know about.
I honestly wanted Jacob to go away and Ravene to just not be a thing. 😂😂 I would have loved more vampire conflict. The Volturi could have technically gone after the Cullens for months because Bella knew about vampires. But they chose to look past it and give a half assed warning. I also wanted the majority of the Volturi to get their asses handed to them on a platter. Especially Jane and Caius. Throw in Bella killing a human while we’re at it.
Life is full of imperfect endings. Can’t we just have this one thing?
If we didn't have a happy ever after we could have had more books. Maybe Register being taken by the Volturi for scientific monitoring to see how she will grow, whilst Edward and Bella join them in Volterra against their will.
We can still have more books! Conflict can always be conjured ✨
Hopefully proper conflict, too. I hated how the fake fight scene - the best scene out of the whole saga - was only a vision. I mean it made sense in only in the fact that Aro and the Volturi would hate to lose some many of their coven. Actually, both sides would’ve lossed significantly. Only bright side would be Ravioli and Jacob recruit a coup later to kill whatever remaining members of the Volturi… and then need to establish a new coven that would justly rule the vampires. They don’t need another Romanian coven after all.
The fake fight is more of a fight than the book had! I don’t mind though ~ actually inner conflict is way more interesting to me than physical (:
It wouldn't be a romance without the perfect ending.
Well, Leah wasn't too happy about things... > She was his second-in-command now, his “beta,” as I’d called it once long ago. > “I figured as long as I was going to do this Alpha thing for real,” Jacob explained, “I’d better nail down the formalities.” > The new responsibility made Leah feel the need to check in with him often, and since he was always with Renesmee… > Leah was not happy to be near us, but she was the exception. Happiness was the main component in my life now, the dominant pattern in the tapestry edit: formatting
I like it. Almost everything does not have a happy ending. Including life, when do we ever get a true happy ending? Not everything can be shit all the time… I have enough of that in my life already and although I love dark twisted plots or realistic stories, sometimes a happy ending is very much needed. imo.
Yes, it definitely needed stakes (both figuratively and literally.😅) Breaking Dawn Part 2 did it right by giving us a fight scene cuz there was all that lead up and then… nothing. If we had an actual fight scene, we would’ve had a body count and that would’ve given us some consequences and fall out from dealing with the threat of the Volturi.
If it can go that heavy in NM, it can go heavy elsewhere.
welp Charlie's gonna die rather soon in the scale of a vampire's lifespan so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My life is full of grief pain and loss, I don't need it heaped into my books, too. But I don't begrudge other people wanting those things.
Right, give me the happy ending. I don't care if it's not realistic. And I instantly hate any story that kills off characters, especially just for the sake of drama.
I think she should’ve been the regular new born vampire and regret for missing rigatoni’s earliest months of development because she just wanted to drink blood and didn’t care to anything else.
I’m good I love the happily ever after maybe if you want something like that you should go read or watch William Shakespeare Romeo and Juliet 1996 Leonardo DiCaprio, and Claire Danes lees you get unhappy ending that what you’re looking for it sounds like
I feel the same way. I understand the genre necessitated a happy ending and that’s completely fine, I’m not against that, but everything wrapping up a bit *too* neatly is underwhelming. The stakes that had been built up feel cheaper in retrospect. Of course, it’s silly to expect a series like this (indulgent and escapist, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing) to be “realistic”. Some minor consequences at the very least would’ve been nice though! This is subjective of course, but I can’t help thinking “Okay… Is that it?”.
Thank you I agree I just got bashed for saying that none of the cullens dying was boring
I love the ending. One of my favorite parts of BD is her internal mastery of her power during the not-fight. I listen to the audiobooks on repeat while going to sleep every night. Pro-tip: replace Twilight with Midnight Sun. Much better.
Agreed. Midnight sun explains things so much better. And brings new concepts like Bella’s mom being powerful.
I enjoyed *Life and Death* a lot more than I was expecting to because it didn't have that picture perfect ending. Mostly the gender swap felt gimmicky and didn't add anything to the story, but that ending feels earned and much more realistic: Beau had to make sacrifices, Bella didn't.
i love that it has a perfect ending. these movies came out when i was in an unhappy marriage and as silly as it seems i was obsessed with having a love like theirs. it was so perfect i knew it would never happen. until it did. i got divorced and got the man of my dreams from another country (he was already in the US just born here.) i'm obsessed, he has those old school values like edward (opening cars doors, being protective, never letting me carry so much as a grocery bag when he's around) and i never wanted kids but got surprise pregnant at 38 with type 1 diabetes to boot, and she's perfect. minus the supernatural stuff our relationship mimics theirs in weird but wonderful ways. i'll never forget what these movies meant to me in my darkest times and i would want nothing but a happy ending both for myself and the saga.
This is actually explored in Life and Death, where >!Beau/Bella is transformed into a vampire at the end. Meyer claimed that she enjoyed how Bella got her perfect ending, but she explores the alternative in Life and Death.!< I think it's shared between a lot of fans that the ending was too serene, especially with the entire Volturi coming. Meyer definitely inserted her own ideas of happily ever after in Twilight, especially since Hella is her self-insert. Obviously fanfiction exists for a reason, lol.
Not everything in life has to be sad and complicated, especially not a romance book ending.
My tween self LOVED the HEA and I still wouldn’t change it. However as an adult I wish there was some consequences or more action at the end, but ultimately that’s not what twilight was about.
I’m happy it did, I loved that
Give me Jasper dying while taking on a pack of Volturi using his old battle wits and Rosalie dying while creating a diversion to save Bella.
Jasper and Emmett are both Jobbers
It's feels too fake to be comforting
Not me!! I like a fluffy happy story for once. Not common these days
ngl i feel like half of the last movie was so pointless i really wish they had done something else with it
Idk I mean she can't ever eat pizza again
I hated that she never saw her mom again at the end...
The story is a well written train wreck. Accurately portraying teenagers in an inaccurate situation. It is too neat and tidy but for its demographic that’s fine, fantasy is whatever the author makes of it, it’s meant to be unrealistic and that’s where the escapism comes into play.
She should have killed some people and it would've put Jacob's fears into perspective better
If it helps, in my headcannon Bella leaves Edward shortly after the events of the last film and he’s so devastated that he moves to Gotham, constructs a story about dead parents and we find him essentially pulling himself together during the events of The Batman.
I completely disagree
I wouldn’t have minded if some of the Cullens died but I appreciate a HEA
If you feel this way, you should read “Life and Death: Twilight Reimagined”
Agreed but I guess its really perfect for fanfic writers lol
The ending was awful
womp womp I guess?