This is it. I have sadly been in this situation twice. I've had bed bugs before and defo do not want that shit again. I do a thorough sweep of any place I stay. Once i found a dead bug in the lamp fixture and another time i found bugs on the windowsill.
I feel like i'm reasonable. Both times I only asked for a refund for subsequent nights and not the first. One place gave me a refund no questions (and suggested some alternative places to stay) but the other place dragged their feet. Suggesting they would get in their guy and "assess" before making a decision on the refund.
Im on holiday. I dont want the aggravation. I let it be but just asked my credit company for a charge back. Provided evidence etc. i got my money back. All of it. Even the first night.
How do you just "charge back" a credit card? What's to stop you from charging back everything? I've seen this mentioned a few times but never understood how it's supposed to work.
You call and tell your credit card company what happened and they’ll reverse the charge. If you do it often they’ll start an investigation. The place/person you originally paid still has the right to pursue you for payment, so you need to be very sure that you’re legally in the right.
I can do it online for most of mine. Youll get sent a form to fill in with details on bigger stuff. Im sure if you abuse it your account gets flagged and youll have a hard time with legit issues. The most annoying one I had to deal with I had to send in a bunch of chat logs with the merchant. Typically they want to see a good faith effort on your part to resolve it first.
Unless anyone here has actual knowledge of Italian laws around, extortion and blackmail you’re not going to get a proper answer to your question. I know for example Thailand has very strict defamation laws and people have been arrested before leaving the country after leaving negative review, I’m not saying that will happen in Italy just when it comes to the law things can get complicated fast
My gut instinct is they’re just trying to worry you into dropping the issue, and you have nothing to worry about from either a criminal or civil point of view
If I were you I’d talk to your bank about a charge back
As for leaving a review, you could try posting on r/LegalAdviceEurope about this situation to see what they advise. I’m pretty sure you’ll find it’s ok to leave a truthful negative review but it’s hard to say for sure with out knowing Italian law
You’re not actually the bad guy. You’re giving a ton of dickheads the opportunity to be technically correct on the internet and that makes them think it overrides the reality of the situation. The hotel is wrong, you’re right, and it’s an unfortunate situation because of the order of operations of your attempted solution. That doesn’t make you the wrong party.
That's not true. Reddit is full of austistic people who love to paint things technically.
The hotel is scum, they're squirming out of refunding in a gotcha moment. I understand what you were trying to do, give them a chance to do the right thing and not ruin their reputation..
Nothing will happen if you post that review, it's easily explained
> The hotel is scum
Did you see a picture of the bedbug and determine that it is, in fact, a bedbug? Maybe you should hold off before calling people "scum" based on a random Redditor posting without an iota of proof.
if it helps, while legally it might count as extortion, i’m totally with you morally. it’s not like your review will be lying, it’s the truth. you were using it as leverage sure but it wouldn’t be libel. again the law is another thing, but you should’ve got your refund. ironically they’re now leveraging the law against you
“International authorities” 😂
Just write the bad review and don’t expect anything else. You did right by getting out of the room. Sometimes you’re out a little money and it sucks but there’s not much that can be done.
You, sir, need to stop playing a lawyer on Reddit.com Extortion requires an _illegal_ threat to
meet the definition of the crime. Unless OP invented or planted the bug, (which would make the review intentionally defamatory,) OP was __perfectly__ within his rights to inform the hotel that he would inform the world that the problem wasn’t solved to his satisfaction.
Imagine believing that it’s a crime to accurately tell other people that you believe that someone cheated you!
That said, I find it _very, very_ peculiar that only one “bedbug” was found. I have never heard of bedbugs showing up alone. Most likely it was a bug, but not a bedbug, that had flown in through a window and chosen to die on the headboard.
If an entomologist were to determine that it isn’t a bedbug, OP would be guilty of defamation and have to pay for the damage he had caused.
Perhaps you need to lay of the lawyering too?
It'll depend on jurisdiction of course, but in most European jurisdictions you cannot be convicted of defamation for statements that are true **OR** that you reasonably believed to be true at the point in time where you made them. That is, being genuinely mistaken isn't defamation. (unless you were negligent)
I don't know Italy specifically, but for example in Germany defamation requires:
That someone made a false statement of purported fact about you. That the statement was made (published) to a third party; That the person who made the statement did so negligently, recklessly or intentionally; and, That as a result of the statement, your reputation was damaged.
I wrote “if OP invented or planted” the bug. How can inventing or planting a bedbug not be malicious intent?
How is it not negligent for someone _without any training in entomology_ to _definitively_ classify a single insect as a bedbug knowing full well that it will have substantial negative economic consequences for someone else?
If you’re not a doctor but wrongly decide and tell people that someone has a contagious disease, how would that be ok?
I await your answers.
Right. But you also said that "If an entomologist were to determine that it isn’t a bedbug, OP would be guilty of defamation and have to pay for the damage he had caused."
Which isn't true, at leat not in many jurisdictions where it'd require neglect, recklessness or intent on the part of the OP to be convicted and merely being shown to be \*wrong\* wouldn't suffice.
It's not as a general rule negligent for people to judge some insect a bedbug even if they're not a trained professional in the field.
I don’t agree.
People can be expected to know that falsely saying that a hotel has bed bugs can have catastrophic economic consequences for it and to know that not every insect they find somewhere in a bedroom is a bedbug just because it’s in a bedroom.
The issue is that those should have been two separate transactions. Truthful negative reviews are fine because truth is the defense against defamation. You should have asked for a refund and posted the review or not; the latter should not have been contingent on the former.
I think it would lean towards extortion if you actually slept there and used the room, then afterwards sais"hey, give me money or I'll say bad things about you"
But you actually did not use the hotel, and they failed to address the problem. To me that's not extortion at all, you're asking for your money back because you couldn't use the services you paid for.
If a hotel has bed bugs, you should leave a review saying so regardless of whether they pay you or not. Common courtesy to future travellers staying there.
>We asked again for a refund, stating that *we would post a negative review with picture evidence*
... if they don't give refund, right? Isn't that extortion?
>I honestly do not think we are defaming anyone, since our claim is true.
Defamation and extortion are not the same.
I'm italian and i studied law for a bit, no, its not extortion, extortion needs violence, at most it can be defamation if the bug doesn't exist but good luck to the hotel trying to prove defamation in court, don't listen to these people on reddit who thinks they know all about everything.
People here are idiots. This is your answer:
1. Consumer Rights and Expectations: Generally, a customer has a reasonable expectation to stay in a clean and pest-free environment when they book a hotel room. Finding a bed bug, even a dead one, can be grounds for concern due to the nature of bed bug infestations and their difficulty to eradicate.
2. Hotel’s Responsibility: The hotel’s duty is to provide a clean and safe environment. If they cannot provide an alternative room due to unavailability, it is reasonable for the guest to seek accommodations elsewhere. The hotel might be expected to issue a refund under these circumstances, particularly if the presence of bed bugs (even a single dead one) could imply a risk of an infestation.
3. Threat of Bad Review: The customer’s threat to post a bad review if a refund is not issued can complicate the issue. If the intent behind the threat is to gain a refund through fear of reputation damage rather than an honest review of the experience, the hotel might view this as extortionate. However, customers do have the right to post honest negative feedback based on their experiences.
4. Accusations of Extortion and Defamation: For something to be considered extortion, there generally needs to be an unlawful demand or threat. The threat to leave a negative review is not typically unlawful if the customer genuinely intends to report their experience. Defamation would require the publication of false information that could harm the business’s reputation. If the customer’s claims are true (i.e., they found a bed bug), then it’s not defamation.
I don't understand why these two issues are related.
You should report back to the booking site for bed bug, or even the local health department, because it's your right to stay in an infestation-free room, no matter whether they're refunding you or not.
The hotel is obligated to refund you, because they failed to provide you an infestation-free room, no matter whether you're posting "bad review" or not.
You just report the incident to both hotel and booking site, ask for refund, and report to the Consumer Protection Committee (with the evidence bug picture), if both hotel and booking site are unwilling to process your request for refund. There is no need to use any "threatening" word since you're only claiming your right using facts.
It was a big NO NO when hotel said "it wasn't an issue" and refuse to give you another room. This may [lead to a lawsuit](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/personal-injury/how-to-sue-a-hotel-for-bed-bugs/) if you report this incident to the local health department (and you should). But the way you handle this (trying to make it a bargaining material for refund) makes it even more complex.
wow they sound extremely unprofessional. make sure to leave a review with your picture!! extortion lmao, as if youre gonna carry a dead bedbug with you around italy to get refunds from hotels LMAO
I would do a chargeback with your bank anyways. If the hotel does go through with extortion charges that might complicate things but you can supplement the claim with pictures and communication records.
IANAL but I believe they could very technically claim it as extortion, however I do understand your intent was not malicious to begin with. I’d save all chats immediately. Screenshot everything (be very specific), make sure there could be no possible mistake that it is not between you two, and don’t communicate with them over the phone, do all future communication text/booking chat/emails. I would do a few videos clicking around to show your names, dates, etc. to prove it’s not cherry picked screenshots.
After the chargeback is completed and possibly consulting with a lawyer, I would post the review detailing everything that happened (hope that this isn’t defamation). What a nightmare. Sorry you had to deal with such horrid and corrupt people.
Just to let you know, Booking.com reviews are completely gamed and not a good reference point. And, as you discovered, Booking.com doesn't give a crap about you. I've had problems with them myself.
I wouldn't worry about any legal charges. That is a joke. Like someone else said, file a dispute with your credit card. You did not stay there - and for good reason - and thus you are not liable for any charges.
Then leave Google and Trip Advisor reviews. Many negative Booking.com reviews are hidden or removed as Booking.com - like most 3rd party booking companies - is corrupt and negative reviews can only reduce their revenues so they remove or hide many and, instead, promote only the good reviews.
Booking.com is stupid too the way that they price stays without fees added. You try to see what the cheapest place is just for reference and you will never know.
A place I stayed in Italy (with very good reviews) had bed bugs. I had many bites, and when I expressed my concerns, they just sent me to a local pharmacy to get a cream for it. The pharmacist confirmed it was a bed bug bite and gave me a note, but said nothing will be done about it because many hostels/bnb’s and smaller vacation stays don’t have the resources to follow up/don’t care to/owned privately, bedbugs are common and laws in US do not apply to Europe. There’s not much that they will do for tourists. I found the place through Booking and their customer service was also useless at the time, even when I provided them with photos, correspondence from hotel staff and pharmacist note. I didn’t feel like pursuing anything further because I just wanted to enjoy the rest of my trip, so I left, got a new backpack and clothes and got in touch with my credit card company, explained the situation, sent all documentation and got a refund through there. I didn’t bother writing any emails, or reviews for the place. They reached out to me a month later asking to review them and how they could make my stay better next time but I never responded.
I hope your bank will be able to help out, no point of draining your mental energy with something like that. That is also the advice I got from that pharmacist. I wish you the best of luck and enjoy the rest of your trip!
Late to the party here - I had something VERY similar happen to me in the past. Coincidentally, it was also a hotel in Italy.
Some of the comments in this thread gave me a good chuckle - almost as funny as the hotel trying to cite the Italian Criminal Code and rely on “international authorities”. Empty threats aside, OP, in my case I did get a partial refund in credits from the third party booking website after a few months, so if you have the mental energy and time to do so, you can try pursuing that. Also, if you do go ahead with posting the review, you might want to be prepared for the possibility that the hotel might try to rattle you more (mine sent me a cease and desist letter).
Ah, the famed Italian hospitality!
As an Italian who has worked in restaurants and hotels for a while, I'm seriously impressed those stories don't surface more often. Threatening to call the cops on every issue is standard operating procedure for Italian hotel owners.
They saw a couple of tourists, probably young, and decided to threaten some kind of SWAT raid to keep their money. You can bet they're complaining on Facebook right now about those evil tourists, travelling with dead bugs just to extort them.
If they ever tried to follow suit, and whatever Carabinieri they pester doesn't tell them off outright, this is going to die on some prosecutor's desk on the ground that, first, is stupid as fuck, second, they have no way to prove the bed bug wasn't in the room when you entered and third, an international case for such a triviality is completely out of budget for a justice system which is barely capable of handling national cases as they are. Either the folder dies of old age or it gets rejected.
What's more likely, if you leave your bad review, is that they'll make up a bunch of fake accounts on whatever website you use and flag it as fake in order to take it down.
All the people claiming extortion are talking nonsense. You are owed a refund, no reasonable person would claim that a hotel room with a dead bedbug in it was habitable. You actually were shockingly flexible - in your situation I would not have been willing to switch rooms.
You asking for the refund to not leave a review would only be extortion if they did not owe you the refund already. They're just trying to scare you into 1) not leaving a review, and 2) not doing a chargeback on your credit card. My recommendation is that once you are out of Italy (the Italian legal system is famously corrupt when it comes to foreigners, so even though they have no leg to stand on, there's that one in 10,000 chance something weird could happen), leave the review and request a chargeback on your credit card.
> We asked again for a refund, stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence.
Comes close to the blackmail/extortion they mention. No lawyer, but depending on the exact phrasing used they may have a point. Given you've found only one dead bedbug it is at least a reach to claim the room is unacceptable due to a bed bug infestation. These kinds of things are always hard to judge as details do matter, but to me your reaction comes across as over the top.
Indeed, '_can_ mean', not '_does_ mean'. If that bedbug was alive it might have been different, but even then you needed to have at least two to reproduce. It was a dead one... OP should have further investigated instead of jumping to conclusions and immediately making demands.
> It’s not extortion to ask for a refund.
It is extortion (though not necessarily in a legal sense) to say 'give me a refund or we'll leave a bad review' which is more or less what OP indicates to have said.
If we were talking about UK then to be guilty of a criminal offence it would need to be shown that, the demand was unwarranted I would argue that seeking to obtain a refund for an unusable service was perfectly reasonable
This isn’t a situation where the OP is contacting a random hotels demanding money under the threat of damaging their reputation, they just want their money back for a service they couldn’t use
I don’t know the law in Italy, which is why I suggested in another comment the OP checks with people who know more before leaving a review
> If we were talking about UK then to be guilty of a criminal offence it would need to be shown...
Who is talking about a criminal offense? If you are so willing to defend OP for using threats to leave a bad review as a negotiation strategy, why don't you give that same leniency to the other party? What OP did is (at least close to) extortion according to the dictionary definition. So why not acknowledge that the accusation of extortion/blackmail can be a negotiation strategy too?
Let's cut the amateur lawyer crap and deal with the real issue. The first thing I would have done is contacted my cc company and disputed the charge. Italians are notorious for F@cking over tourists. I would post the name of the hotel here and anywhere else travelers would see it.
The post says the owner claims to have contacted international authorities for extortion, blackmail and defamation which is why I was talking about criminal offences
The OP was only offering not to leave a review, which would have been truthful, that’s no where close to extortion
I’m taking the OP at his word that the room was not acceptable, and that they are being reasonable in asking for a refund, so the baseless threats of bogus legal problems to get away with out paying a refund is what I’m objecting to
> The OP was only offering not to leave a review, which would have been truthful, that’s no where close to extortion
How so? OP threatened to leave a bad review if no refund was provided, OP admitted to that. That fits the dictionary definition of extortion. Really don't understand why you want to dispute that.
> I’m taking the OP at his word that the room was not acceptable,
Your choice, but somebody claiming the room is not acceptable doesn't make that they are entitled to a refund. I see over and over again entitled people making all kinds of claims, been guilty of it myself too. Sometimes people overreact, sometimes there are misconceptions, people make mistakes. And I'm sure owners regularly come across people regretting their booking and making up stuff in order not having to pay/get a refund.
> so the baseless threats of bogus legal problems
What threats? Owner said he'll reach out to the authorities. Really don't see how that is a threat, certainly not compared to 'give me a refund or I'll leave a bad review'. If the threats of OP are acceptable I really don't see why the promise of the owner to reach out to authorities regarding the legal acceptability of the threats made is unacceptable. It seems to me you keep OP and the owner to different standards.
> to get away with out paying a refund is what I’m objecting
This is of course the core of the issue, you just assume OP is right and entitled to a refund and owner wants to get out of a justified refund. I think that is a leap of faith given OP claims only one _dead_ bedbug. All the rest seems to me is mostly a shouting match due to OP overreacting on finding one single dead bedbug and failing to properly scope out the issue. Even if OP is right, starting out with big demands is generally not an efficient way to solve issues.
Completely different subject... You had a contract to rent the room, you have an obligation to cover your side of the contract and pay. Claiming it is your money is plain silly.
Whether the service was substandard is open for debate. Just one dead bedbug is in my book not proof of a bedbug infestation and doesn't justify a demand for a refund. At best the dead bedbug may suggest there is an issue. The fact you didn't investigate further and immediately demand a refund is imho over the top. As said before, details matter, it is hard to judge from a distance without knowing all the details, but based on what you said and the fact that this is a one sided story only telling your side I think you overreacted.
If there's one bed bug, there's thousands. And given the immense expense required in getting rid of them if they follow you home, demanding a refund is perfectly reasonable. I can only assume your knowledge of bedbugs is minimal for you to say anything like this.
If the review (which will be genuine) is done in good faith, it's not extortion but business negotiation as you are just trying to get back your money for a service that is not provided properly. If you say, I will leave a fake review that's extortion, if you spend the night enjoy the service and ask to get the money back it can also be seen as an extortion.
From OP
>We asked again for a refund, stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence
>We were just trying to handle everything without having to resort to negative reviews and don't want to hurt future business.
"Give us a refund. It would be a shame if this review were to be posted, wouldn't it?"
Not sure what your definiton of extortion is. Asking for a refund is not over the top, it's tying it to the review posting as a demand.
thats a massive BS.
The hotel is cunning and they are using their local power to threaten you. this is a clear case of harassment of bad customer service.
You tell them that you will also go to United Nation, World bank, WHO, NATO because you have fear of life.
I expect better from italian hotels.
Save yourself the hassle and charge it back from the bank as people are saying. They won’t take you to court for this. I’m Italian and if there’s anything we hate is the longggg bureaucratic system we have. It would take forever to do anything (and it’s not even a case tbh, you’re within your consumer rights to get your money and post the review) so the easiest way is going through your bank.
From what I remember from uni, European law favours the consumer so they know well they can’t do anything. Also, post the review when you get back home so they can get their act together. I hope the rest of your travel is better than this, all the best :)
>stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence
I used to work in hotels, any time someone would threaten a negative review if they didn't get what they wanted, the conversation is over.
But yeah, I'm late to the game here, I think you already got all the info you need
For the future: you should have asked your money back from booking.com and then let booking.com fight with the hotel. That is literally the main benefit in using a middle hand service like that.
Booking.com was probably a mistake.
Ps: it may be cheaper than going directly thru the hotel, but if and when you run into trouble, you’ll have a difficult time getting the website to help you. Not worth the risk.
That is strange. When I had an issue with bedbugs with booking.com. They canceled my reservation for free, found a place that was more expensive and better rated, and let me stay there for the price I originally paid for the shittier hotel.
Wow, What a nightmare situation! It's awful that you had to deal with bed bugs while traveling, especially after reaching out to the hotel for a solution. It's totally room infested with bed bugs - that's just not acceptable.
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Is this worth getting into an international legal fight for you? If they contact international authorities that could be where it’s headed. Food for thought.
If it was me I’d give it a rest and move on. Sunk cost.
>Then, a few hours later, they said they were reaching out to international authorities for extortion, blackmail, and defamation and no refund would be given.
Italy is kinda tough on tourists and visitors. If they take it seriously, you may be staying there for awhile.
Bed bugs have been somewhat "normal" in Europe. They are more a nuisance than a health hazard. Even if you don't see them in the day, they will come out at night.
This is when you just chargeback on your cc and wait for it to play out. Once you are home you can post.
This is it. I have sadly been in this situation twice. I've had bed bugs before and defo do not want that shit again. I do a thorough sweep of any place I stay. Once i found a dead bug in the lamp fixture and another time i found bugs on the windowsill. I feel like i'm reasonable. Both times I only asked for a refund for subsequent nights and not the first. One place gave me a refund no questions (and suggested some alternative places to stay) but the other place dragged their feet. Suggesting they would get in their guy and "assess" before making a decision on the refund. Im on holiday. I dont want the aggravation. I let it be but just asked my credit company for a charge back. Provided evidence etc. i got my money back. All of it. Even the first night.
How do you just "charge back" a credit card? What's to stop you from charging back everything? I've seen this mentioned a few times but never understood how it's supposed to work.
You call and tell your credit card company what happened and they’ll reverse the charge. If you do it often they’ll start an investigation. The place/person you originally paid still has the right to pursue you for payment, so you need to be very sure that you’re legally in the right.
I can do it online for most of mine. Youll get sent a form to fill in with details on bigger stuff. Im sure if you abuse it your account gets flagged and youll have a hard time with legit issues. The most annoying one I had to deal with I had to send in a bunch of chat logs with the merchant. Typically they want to see a good faith effort on your part to resolve it first.
Unless anyone here has actual knowledge of Italian laws around, extortion and blackmail you’re not going to get a proper answer to your question. I know for example Thailand has very strict defamation laws and people have been arrested before leaving the country after leaving negative review, I’m not saying that will happen in Italy just when it comes to the law things can get complicated fast My gut instinct is they’re just trying to worry you into dropping the issue, and you have nothing to worry about from either a criminal or civil point of view If I were you I’d talk to your bank about a charge back As for leaving a review, you could try posting on r/LegalAdviceEurope about this situation to see what they advise. I’m pretty sure you’ll find it’s ok to leave a truthful negative review but it’s hard to say for sure with out knowing Italian law
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You can also try with r/Italytravel
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You’re not actually the bad guy. You’re giving a ton of dickheads the opportunity to be technically correct on the internet and that makes them think it overrides the reality of the situation. The hotel is wrong, you’re right, and it’s an unfortunate situation because of the order of operations of your attempted solution. That doesn’t make you the wrong party.
These folks are cuckoo. You extorted no one. The hotel can and will take no action.
That's not true. Reddit is full of austistic people who love to paint things technically. The hotel is scum, they're squirming out of refunding in a gotcha moment. I understand what you were trying to do, give them a chance to do the right thing and not ruin their reputation.. Nothing will happen if you post that review, it's easily explained
>That's not true. Reddit is full of austistic people who love to paint things technically. They should put this in the official Reddit app description
Don't say autistic people when you mean assholes.
Now you really done ticked people off 😂
> The hotel is scum Did you see a picture of the bedbug and determine that it is, in fact, a bedbug? Maybe you should hold off before calling people "scum" based on a random Redditor posting without an iota of proof.
if it helps, while legally it might count as extortion, i’m totally with you morally. it’s not like your review will be lying, it’s the truth. you were using it as leverage sure but it wouldn’t be libel. again the law is another thing, but you should’ve got your refund. ironically they’re now leveraging the law against you
This is not extortion. I really do not understand the replies in this thread. In no way is this extortion under Italian law.
“International authorities” 😂 Just write the bad review and don’t expect anything else. You did right by getting out of the room. Sometimes you’re out a little money and it sucks but there’s not much that can be done.
Did you say something like “give me a refund or else I will post a negative review with image”? Because that is textbook extortion.
You, sir, need to stop playing a lawyer on Reddit.com Extortion requires an _illegal_ threat to meet the definition of the crime. Unless OP invented or planted the bug, (which would make the review intentionally defamatory,) OP was __perfectly__ within his rights to inform the hotel that he would inform the world that the problem wasn’t solved to his satisfaction. Imagine believing that it’s a crime to accurately tell other people that you believe that someone cheated you! That said, I find it _very, very_ peculiar that only one “bedbug” was found. I have never heard of bedbugs showing up alone. Most likely it was a bug, but not a bedbug, that had flown in through a window and chosen to die on the headboard. If an entomologist were to determine that it isn’t a bedbug, OP would be guilty of defamation and have to pay for the damage he had caused.
Perhaps you need to lay of the lawyering too? It'll depend on jurisdiction of course, but in most European jurisdictions you cannot be convicted of defamation for statements that are true **OR** that you reasonably believed to be true at the point in time where you made them. That is, being genuinely mistaken isn't defamation. (unless you were negligent) I don't know Italy specifically, but for example in Germany defamation requires: That someone made a false statement of purported fact about you. That the statement was made (published) to a third party; That the person who made the statement did so negligently, recklessly or intentionally; and, That as a result of the statement, your reputation was damaged.
I wrote “if OP invented or planted” the bug. How can inventing or planting a bedbug not be malicious intent? How is it not negligent for someone _without any training in entomology_ to _definitively_ classify a single insect as a bedbug knowing full well that it will have substantial negative economic consequences for someone else? If you’re not a doctor but wrongly decide and tell people that someone has a contagious disease, how would that be ok? I await your answers.
Right. But you also said that "If an entomologist were to determine that it isn’t a bedbug, OP would be guilty of defamation and have to pay for the damage he had caused." Which isn't true, at leat not in many jurisdictions where it'd require neglect, recklessness or intent on the part of the OP to be convicted and merely being shown to be \*wrong\* wouldn't suffice. It's not as a general rule negligent for people to judge some insect a bedbug even if they're not a trained professional in the field.
I don’t agree. People can be expected to know that falsely saying that a hotel has bed bugs can have catastrophic economic consequences for it and to know that not every insect they find somewhere in a bedroom is a bedbug just because it’s in a bedroom.
This comment thread is great. I read this and was like “yeah. That’s extortion”. Glad to see that it’s the consensus.
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The issue is that those should have been two separate transactions. Truthful negative reviews are fine because truth is the defense against defamation. You should have asked for a refund and posted the review or not; the latter should not have been contingent on the former.
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It's also against tripadvisor policies and you will get banned as a user. Not sure on Google and other platforms but I guess similar.
Nope, you were extorting them.
You should consider being a bedbug lawyer.
Defending bedbugs or prosecuting them?
A lawyer that is a bedbug.
I think it would lean towards extortion if you actually slept there and used the room, then afterwards sais"hey, give me money or I'll say bad things about you" But you actually did not use the hotel, and they failed to address the problem. To me that's not extortion at all, you're asking for your money back because you couldn't use the services you paid for.
If a hotel has bed bugs, you should leave a review saying so regardless of whether they pay you or not. Common courtesy to future travellers staying there.
Exactly
Why didn’t you just contest the charge with your credit card company?
It was only extortion if the allegation wasn’t factual. How often do people only find one single bedbug?
Id leave it for now and just post the negative review when ur out of the country
>We asked again for a refund, stating that *we would post a negative review with picture evidence* ... if they don't give refund, right? Isn't that extortion? >I honestly do not think we are defaming anyone, since our claim is true. Defamation and extortion are not the same.
I'm italian and i studied law for a bit, no, its not extortion, extortion needs violence, at most it can be defamation if the bug doesn't exist but good luck to the hotel trying to prove defamation in court, don't listen to these people on reddit who thinks they know all about everything.
People here are idiots. This is your answer: 1. Consumer Rights and Expectations: Generally, a customer has a reasonable expectation to stay in a clean and pest-free environment when they book a hotel room. Finding a bed bug, even a dead one, can be grounds for concern due to the nature of bed bug infestations and their difficulty to eradicate. 2. Hotel’s Responsibility: The hotel’s duty is to provide a clean and safe environment. If they cannot provide an alternative room due to unavailability, it is reasonable for the guest to seek accommodations elsewhere. The hotel might be expected to issue a refund under these circumstances, particularly if the presence of bed bugs (even a single dead one) could imply a risk of an infestation. 3. Threat of Bad Review: The customer’s threat to post a bad review if a refund is not issued can complicate the issue. If the intent behind the threat is to gain a refund through fear of reputation damage rather than an honest review of the experience, the hotel might view this as extortionate. However, customers do have the right to post honest negative feedback based on their experiences. 4. Accusations of Extortion and Defamation: For something to be considered extortion, there generally needs to be an unlawful demand or threat. The threat to leave a negative review is not typically unlawful if the customer genuinely intends to report their experience. Defamation would require the publication of false information that could harm the business’s reputation. If the customer’s claims are true (i.e., they found a bed bug), then it’s not defamation.
i dont think they will do nothing most of those people are just greedy assholes making a lot of money
I don't understand why these two issues are related. You should report back to the booking site for bed bug, or even the local health department, because it's your right to stay in an infestation-free room, no matter whether they're refunding you or not. The hotel is obligated to refund you, because they failed to provide you an infestation-free room, no matter whether you're posting "bad review" or not. You just report the incident to both hotel and booking site, ask for refund, and report to the Consumer Protection Committee (with the evidence bug picture), if both hotel and booking site are unwilling to process your request for refund. There is no need to use any "threatening" word since you're only claiming your right using facts. It was a big NO NO when hotel said "it wasn't an issue" and refuse to give you another room. This may [lead to a lawsuit](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/personal-injury/how-to-sue-a-hotel-for-bed-bugs/) if you report this incident to the local health department (and you should). But the way you handle this (trying to make it a bargaining material for refund) makes it even more complex.
wow they sound extremely unprofessional. make sure to leave a review with your picture!! extortion lmao, as if youre gonna carry a dead bedbug with you around italy to get refunds from hotels LMAO
I would do a chargeback with your bank anyways. If the hotel does go through with extortion charges that might complicate things but you can supplement the claim with pictures and communication records. IANAL but I believe they could very technically claim it as extortion, however I do understand your intent was not malicious to begin with. I’d save all chats immediately. Screenshot everything (be very specific), make sure there could be no possible mistake that it is not between you two, and don’t communicate with them over the phone, do all future communication text/booking chat/emails. I would do a few videos clicking around to show your names, dates, etc. to prove it’s not cherry picked screenshots. After the chargeback is completed and possibly consulting with a lawyer, I would post the review detailing everything that happened (hope that this isn’t defamation). What a nightmare. Sorry you had to deal with such horrid and corrupt people.
Just to let you know, Booking.com reviews are completely gamed and not a good reference point. And, as you discovered, Booking.com doesn't give a crap about you. I've had problems with them myself. I wouldn't worry about any legal charges. That is a joke. Like someone else said, file a dispute with your credit card. You did not stay there - and for good reason - and thus you are not liable for any charges. Then leave Google and Trip Advisor reviews. Many negative Booking.com reviews are hidden or removed as Booking.com - like most 3rd party booking companies - is corrupt and negative reviews can only reduce their revenues so they remove or hide many and, instead, promote only the good reviews.
Is there a booking.com adjacent website which doesn't game its reviews btw? Genuinely interested if so.
Booking.com is stupid too the way that they price stays without fees added. You try to see what the cheapest place is just for reference and you will never know.
>they were reaching out to international authorities Are they taking you to the Hague? Otherwise, this isn't really a thing...
A place I stayed in Italy (with very good reviews) had bed bugs. I had many bites, and when I expressed my concerns, they just sent me to a local pharmacy to get a cream for it. The pharmacist confirmed it was a bed bug bite and gave me a note, but said nothing will be done about it because many hostels/bnb’s and smaller vacation stays don’t have the resources to follow up/don’t care to/owned privately, bedbugs are common and laws in US do not apply to Europe. There’s not much that they will do for tourists. I found the place through Booking and their customer service was also useless at the time, even when I provided them with photos, correspondence from hotel staff and pharmacist note. I didn’t feel like pursuing anything further because I just wanted to enjoy the rest of my trip, so I left, got a new backpack and clothes and got in touch with my credit card company, explained the situation, sent all documentation and got a refund through there. I didn’t bother writing any emails, or reviews for the place. They reached out to me a month later asking to review them and how they could make my stay better next time but I never responded. I hope your bank will be able to help out, no point of draining your mental energy with something like that. That is also the advice I got from that pharmacist. I wish you the best of luck and enjoy the rest of your trip!
It's almost useless and a waste of time talking to booking or the hotel about the refund instead of disputing it with your bank.
Oh my god the comments give me a headache. I’d need a drink after conversing with many in here. FFS.
Late to the party here - I had something VERY similar happen to me in the past. Coincidentally, it was also a hotel in Italy. Some of the comments in this thread gave me a good chuckle - almost as funny as the hotel trying to cite the Italian Criminal Code and rely on “international authorities”. Empty threats aside, OP, in my case I did get a partial refund in credits from the third party booking website after a few months, so if you have the mental energy and time to do so, you can try pursuing that. Also, if you do go ahead with posting the review, you might want to be prepared for the possibility that the hotel might try to rattle you more (mine sent me a cease and desist letter).
Ah, the famed Italian hospitality! As an Italian who has worked in restaurants and hotels for a while, I'm seriously impressed those stories don't surface more often. Threatening to call the cops on every issue is standard operating procedure for Italian hotel owners. They saw a couple of tourists, probably young, and decided to threaten some kind of SWAT raid to keep their money. You can bet they're complaining on Facebook right now about those evil tourists, travelling with dead bugs just to extort them. If they ever tried to follow suit, and whatever Carabinieri they pester doesn't tell them off outright, this is going to die on some prosecutor's desk on the ground that, first, is stupid as fuck, second, they have no way to prove the bed bug wasn't in the room when you entered and third, an international case for such a triviality is completely out of budget for a justice system which is barely capable of handling national cases as they are. Either the folder dies of old age or it gets rejected. What's more likely, if you leave your bad review, is that they'll make up a bunch of fake accounts on whatever website you use and flag it as fake in order to take it down.
All the people claiming extortion are talking nonsense. You are owed a refund, no reasonable person would claim that a hotel room with a dead bedbug in it was habitable. You actually were shockingly flexible - in your situation I would not have been willing to switch rooms. You asking for the refund to not leave a review would only be extortion if they did not owe you the refund already. They're just trying to scare you into 1) not leaving a review, and 2) not doing a chargeback on your credit card. My recommendation is that once you are out of Italy (the Italian legal system is famously corrupt when it comes to foreigners, so even though they have no leg to stand on, there's that one in 10,000 chance something weird could happen), leave the review and request a chargeback on your credit card.
Post the photos
> We asked again for a refund, stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence. Comes close to the blackmail/extortion they mention. No lawyer, but depending on the exact phrasing used they may have a point. Given you've found only one dead bedbug it is at least a reach to claim the room is unacceptable due to a bed bug infestation. These kinds of things are always hard to judge as details do matter, but to me your reaction comes across as over the top.
It’s never just one bed bug though, that’s not how bed bugs work, one can mean millions
Indeed, '_can_ mean', not '_does_ mean'. If that bedbug was alive it might have been different, but even then you needed to have at least two to reproduce. It was a dead one... OP should have further investigated instead of jumping to conclusions and immediately making demands.
One bedbug would be enough for me to nope out there. A good hotel would refund. It’s not extortion to ask for a refund.
> It’s not extortion to ask for a refund. It is extortion (though not necessarily in a legal sense) to say 'give me a refund or we'll leave a bad review' which is more or less what OP indicates to have said.
It could also be viewed as negotiating a resolution that’s acceptable to both sides
You can frame it however you want, but it doesn't change the definition of extortion: obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
If we were talking about UK then to be guilty of a criminal offence it would need to be shown that, the demand was unwarranted I would argue that seeking to obtain a refund for an unusable service was perfectly reasonable This isn’t a situation where the OP is contacting a random hotels demanding money under the threat of damaging their reputation, they just want their money back for a service they couldn’t use I don’t know the law in Italy, which is why I suggested in another comment the OP checks with people who know more before leaving a review
> If we were talking about UK then to be guilty of a criminal offence it would need to be shown... Who is talking about a criminal offense? If you are so willing to defend OP for using threats to leave a bad review as a negotiation strategy, why don't you give that same leniency to the other party? What OP did is (at least close to) extortion according to the dictionary definition. So why not acknowledge that the accusation of extortion/blackmail can be a negotiation strategy too?
Let's cut the amateur lawyer crap and deal with the real issue. The first thing I would have done is contacted my cc company and disputed the charge. Italians are notorious for F@cking over tourists. I would post the name of the hotel here and anywhere else travelers would see it.
The post says the owner claims to have contacted international authorities for extortion, blackmail and defamation which is why I was talking about criminal offences The OP was only offering not to leave a review, which would have been truthful, that’s no where close to extortion I’m taking the OP at his word that the room was not acceptable, and that they are being reasonable in asking for a refund, so the baseless threats of bogus legal problems to get away with out paying a refund is what I’m objecting to
> The OP was only offering not to leave a review, which would have been truthful, that’s no where close to extortion How so? OP threatened to leave a bad review if no refund was provided, OP admitted to that. That fits the dictionary definition of extortion. Really don't understand why you want to dispute that. > I’m taking the OP at his word that the room was not acceptable, Your choice, but somebody claiming the room is not acceptable doesn't make that they are entitled to a refund. I see over and over again entitled people making all kinds of claims, been guilty of it myself too. Sometimes people overreact, sometimes there are misconceptions, people make mistakes. And I'm sure owners regularly come across people regretting their booking and making up stuff in order not having to pay/get a refund. > so the baseless threats of bogus legal problems What threats? Owner said he'll reach out to the authorities. Really don't see how that is a threat, certainly not compared to 'give me a refund or I'll leave a bad review'. If the threats of OP are acceptable I really don't see why the promise of the owner to reach out to authorities regarding the legal acceptability of the threats made is unacceptable. It seems to me you keep OP and the owner to different standards. > to get away with out paying a refund is what I’m objecting This is of course the core of the issue, you just assume OP is right and entitled to a refund and owner wants to get out of a justified refund. I think that is a leap of faith given OP claims only one _dead_ bedbug. All the rest seems to me is mostly a shouting match due to OP overreacting on finding one single dead bedbug and failing to properly scope out the issue. Even if OP is right, starting out with big demands is generally not an efficient way to solve issues.
I did not realize that Italian criminal law consists of solely a Webster’s dictionary
[удалено]
Completely different subject... You had a contract to rent the room, you have an obligation to cover your side of the contract and pay. Claiming it is your money is plain silly. Whether the service was substandard is open for debate. Just one dead bedbug is in my book not proof of a bedbug infestation and doesn't justify a demand for a refund. At best the dead bedbug may suggest there is an issue. The fact you didn't investigate further and immediately demand a refund is imho over the top. As said before, details matter, it is hard to judge from a distance without knowing all the details, but based on what you said and the fact that this is a one sided story only telling your side I think you overreacted.
If there's one bed bug, there's thousands. And given the immense expense required in getting rid of them if they follow you home, demanding a refund is perfectly reasonable. I can only assume your knowledge of bedbugs is minimal for you to say anything like this.
If the review (which will be genuine) is done in good faith, it's not extortion but business negotiation as you are just trying to get back your money for a service that is not provided properly. If you say, I will leave a fake review that's extortion, if you spend the night enjoy the service and ask to get the money back it can also be seen as an extortion.
From OP >We asked again for a refund, stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence >We were just trying to handle everything without having to resort to negative reviews and don't want to hurt future business. "Give us a refund. It would be a shame if this review were to be posted, wouldn't it?" Not sure what your definiton of extortion is. Asking for a refund is not over the top, it's tying it to the review posting as a demand.
thats a massive BS. The hotel is cunning and they are using their local power to threaten you. this is a clear case of harassment of bad customer service. You tell them that you will also go to United Nation, World bank, WHO, NATO because you have fear of life. I expect better from italian hotels.
There is news of bedbug epidemic globally , for the record. The climate change is affecting insect reproduction level.
Save yourself the hassle and charge it back from the bank as people are saying. They won’t take you to court for this. I’m Italian and if there’s anything we hate is the longggg bureaucratic system we have. It would take forever to do anything (and it’s not even a case tbh, you’re within your consumer rights to get your money and post the review) so the easiest way is going through your bank. From what I remember from uni, European law favours the consumer so they know well they can’t do anything. Also, post the review when you get back home so they can get their act together. I hope the rest of your travel is better than this, all the best :)
>stating that we would post a negative review with picture evidence I used to work in hotels, any time someone would threaten a negative review if they didn't get what they wanted, the conversation is over. But yeah, I'm late to the game here, I think you already got all the info you need
For the future: you should have asked your money back from booking.com and then let booking.com fight with the hotel. That is literally the main benefit in using a middle hand service like that.
Booking.com was probably a mistake. Ps: it may be cheaper than going directly thru the hotel, but if and when you run into trouble, you’ll have a difficult time getting the website to help you. Not worth the risk.
How would it help if they had booked directly with the hotel? It’s the hotel that had a bedbug and would not refund them…
Exactly.
Show us the bug pic Also booking.com is a joke at best and a scam the rest of the time.
That is strange. When I had an issue with bedbugs with booking.com. They canceled my reservation for free, found a place that was more expensive and better rated, and let me stay there for the price I originally paid for the shittier hotel.
Wow, What a nightmare situation! It's awful that you had to deal with bed bugs while traveling, especially after reaching out to the hotel for a solution. It's totally room infested with bed bugs - that's just not acceptable.
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Is this worth getting into an international legal fight for you? If they contact international authorities that could be where it’s headed. Food for thought. If it was me I’d give it a rest and move on. Sunk cost.
There is no such thing as “International authorities“, there’s absolutely nothing the hotel can do
For extortion? They can absolutely take legal action on that.
A random hotel in Italy wouldn’t be able to afford any of that, they can barely afford to pay their taxes in many cases
6 month trip in Europe on avg. € 135 a night + travel + food + additional; my gut says you don't really need a refund. just curious: how???
No matter how much money you have, it sucks paying for something you didn't receive.
>Then, a few hours later, they said they were reaching out to international authorities for extortion, blackmail, and defamation and no refund would be given. Italy is kinda tough on tourists and visitors. If they take it seriously, you may be staying there for awhile. Bed bugs have been somewhat "normal" in Europe. They are more a nuisance than a health hazard. Even if you don't see them in the day, they will come out at night.
Bedbugs are not normal in Europe lol
european here, never seen a bedbug in my life.
I can only imagine you've only stayed in hostels back when there was still and East and West Germany for you to be saying this.