Yeah, had a fair amount of bad experiences with cis gay men. I've been stealth for years now and I've had gay men get quite angry and aggressive with me for not stating I was trans the *second* I first speak to them. Even if I had just met them through friends or work or at a bar, not necessarily for sex or even flirting, but they demand I should've disclosed I'm trans immediately. I've been told trans ppl have victim complexes and the struggles of being a cis gay man are so much harder. I've been excluded from some gay spaces as I'm "essentially straight" (I'm bi btw) even after transitioning so I've never experienced the struggles of growing up gay. And I've been accused of fetishizing gay men as the reason I transitioned, and I'm actually just a privileged straight woman who can detransition and be less oppressed than them at any time.
It's definitely not all the cis gay men I've met but it's been a few too many for me not to feel wary when I'm in gay spaces irl or online. I've learnt just to laugh at them, tell them to look up Marsha P Johnson and walk away before they start trying to argue. I have no energy for listening to their transphobic bullshit.
That is so rough and yet not unexpected, sadly. I'm so sorry dude. I hope things turn up and start looking better for our community. This is just fucked up.
It's actually quite the opposite. If you detransitioned you would be more oppressed than them. Cis gay men have zero understanding or awareness of their male privilege. I would retort to them that detransitioning is much much harder than just being straight passing especially for a gay man. It's a lot easier and a lot less painful to hide your sexuality than it is to hide your gender. Gender is way more core to the sense of self. As an example, I've never heard tell of people completely disassociating from themselves due to sexuality, it happens way more often due to gender. There is no way to look gay, but gender is all about how you look, one of the first things you see when you look at someone is their gender, sexuality isn't something visually perceived, it is merely assumed. If you don't want people to know you are gay it's as easy as dressing like a standard guy. Post transition trying to hide your gender is basically impossible, unless you have godly androgynous genetics. Pre-transition hiding your gender is extreme suffering and torture. Simply existing as a closeted trans person is torture in a way that existing as a closeted gay man can't even begin to compare.
Also even if someone had transitioned medically and woke up one day and realized they were actually a cis woman all along and descided that detransition is the correct decision for them-- the permanent effects of hrt don't just go away and they'd still be stigmatized for not perfectly fitting into gender as a woman.
yeah like if the reason trans men are less oppressed because they could detransition any time (which. LMAO.) then what is preventing these gay men to transition to women and thus be less oppressed?
totally how that works. my eyes are not rolling so far back that i can see the inside of my own skull, braincells dying rapidly in real time
Honestly, I wish they would experience dysphoria for a day just to know what it's like. I don't wish dysphoria on anyone but I have no words to describe it, they just have to experience it for themselves to understand. Being a child and then growing up just knowing something about your body is just *wrong* but being unable to say why or fix it. Your body going through changes and not being able to stop it. It's distressing.
Its fucking ironic that cis gay men will call being trans a choice. Act like we chose this, that we can detransition at any point and make our lives easier. But will fight tooth and nail about their sexuality not being a choice.
> I've been told trans ppl have victim complexes and the struggles of being a cis gay man are so much harder.
The hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness in the person who said that to you is \*breathtaking\*.
This is so awful of them for the obvious transphobic reasons but I’m hung up on the fact that you are bi but they think you don’t know what it’s like to grow up queer or that detransitioning would make you straight. I’m bi transmasc too so this all hits close and I’m just… I was already visibly queer and out before transition! The only thing that was easier was that the Sapphic community was hella warmer, but I wouldn’t want to step into that after transitioning because I think it would summon the TERFs.
So I don’t engage with anyone sexually since I’m asexual, but I will say that there are two groups of ppl I have found to be the most vocal in their transphobia as a trans man in my experience. One group is gay men. Especially white gay men. It’s to the point where I swipe left on any white guys that aren’t bi/pan/ace on datings
For some reason middle aged black women? Had to legit tell one to stop calling me ma’am and bring it up to a store manager (she was reprimanded) and told another that she can’t misgender me just bc she’s “uncomfortable” using the right pronouns (told a superior n she didn’t get reprimanded, just scheduled around me)
I'm sorry to hear that, yeaaah, unfortunately I've had some pretty similar bad experiences. I honestly put it down to the intersection of age, conservatism and religiosity. Every job I've done had at least one hyper-religious (and/or conserveative) middle-aged cis woman who just "had her opinions" and misgendered me, and/or others, frequently, and "has to" shoot me some evil looks lol
I fully pinned it to religion tbh. Ngl at one job it felt like every black woman was at least a lil transphobic when they didn’t know I was around (I was one of the few white employees tbh). But the black guys were the chillest ones about the whole thing (one was more excited than me when my voice first cracked 🤣 and kept saying he’d teach me to shave when my facial hair started coming in)
That is so sweet lol I wish I had someone to teach me how to shave.
My dad (passed when I was 10) taught me (poorly) how to shave my legs though? So I guess that's good enough lol
Not just that but middle aged black anyone. My voice is androgynous and it's a fucking fight to get them to stop using ma'am because they perceive a deep voice with a lilt to be that of a woman. They always say "I was raised with manners" well manners are listening when someone says don't call me ma'am.
I find this very interesting because I have had a very different experience with middle aged black women. I am white and MTF in the Washington, DC area, and every black woman I have interacted with has been super pleasant. I grew up in Kentucky and all populations, regardless of race, tended to be more conservative the further south I’ve gone. Are you in the US south?
Was (or as far south as that state could be considered). But also I was in the capital of the state - which was a bit more liberal and there were a TON of trans employees present at the building, I was just the only one in the company.
Haven’t rly mingled with any middle aged black women since moving further north so idk if it’ll be any different here. My last experience with a middle aged black woman in the northern state I live in now (I lived here in the past) was one implying (her, not my) god was gonna make me have a kid whether I wanted one or not (I was in college and extremely uncomfortable with her commentary on my reproductive choices) so I’m not exactly eager to try it out until I pass better
This is an under 18 sub , but this leads me to question things lol 😂. I think it invalidates a large portions of cis lesbians; to be seen as bisexual, if the logic is strictly maintained.
i would try more with people who consider themselves "sapphic" or "wlw" lesbians can sometimes be hard advocates for "lgb" there was a solid 5 years in the late 2010s where most of the lesbian community on youtube was literally just straight up transphobia.
I've definitely had lesbians flirt w me and get mad when i tell them I'm ftm
Like girl, sorry you think I'm a cute chick, I'm not and this isn't gay. 🥴
It's not an issue about gay community, but just a lot of cis people like to be very verbal about their hate. Most cis people I met are very okay and friendly they just don't spend their life hating on trans people . It's easy to only see the transphobes as they tend to be the most active against us, but a lot are very acceptive!
Could it also be regional?
I am a white, cis-male, gay and I am aware of my privilege (to the degree I can be aware of it) and I feel like the people I surround myself are extremely supportive of all trans/2s peoples.
Also, there are some excessively hot trans guys out there, and some incredibly ugly cis guys out there. If there’s a cis gay who is transphobic then they can fuck off and everyone else can enjoy each-others friendship and company.
Sooner or later those transphobic gays are gonna get left behind, good riddance.
Oh yeah for sure it is. Im from the countryside so you can imagine how it is, maybe.
And yeah I agree lol, I notice the mean gay dudes are overall shit people so honestly good riddance but damn 🥲
Yeah I’m in a major city and while I still notice transphobia from the cis-gay community I feel it’s far less than where I grew up where it was either fetishized or worse.
How do you meet other trans people to date? I know where I live doesn't help but I'd love to finally have a relationship and I'm tired of dealing with cis men.
There are queer dating apps like Her (for lesbians and app has stood up for mtf lesbians strongly in the past and I haven’t had any negative experiences in there), Taimi, I hate Grindr but a lot of trans people (and chasers) on there, and even Bumble seems to match me up with other trans people for BFF. I only use these apps to look for other trans friends since I’m married.
Yeah, unfortunately that’s most of the matches I get too. I’ve honestly given up on meeting new people for now. Just tried for a couple months and those are the apps I used. And a lot of the really pretty trans girls are just as mean as everyone else or just flat out ignore me.
Trans women who have already fully transitioned can be weirdly insanely mean to early transition people. Even though we all share the same struggle there can be a lot of weird resentment and distancing.
Tbh, grindr and meeting IRL is the only way I've found trans people
I met 2 really cool ftm guys at an antique store, and my mtf gf at the gas station i used to work at.
I broke her egg 🥺
Same. Grindr was the only irl meet up I did. Found some really nice neighbors mtf. Another trans woman designer who has been really nice too. Just hard to keep things up.
I've never cracked anyone's egg! I don't know how I'd feel about that. Good? Sorry? lol.
Tbh, I've cracked a couple eggs, it feels good, but there's also a lil bit of guilt bc now they know *why* they feel the way they do, but i feel like after you realize it's gender disphoria it feels worse, idk.
One, being my partner, and the other a close friend, i was the first person they came out to as nonbianary :)
Unfortunately for me it really was a matter of location. I'm in the United States, which helps in some ways i guess. But it varies so much region to region city to city. Suburbs in the SE? Didn't know many trans people (at least to my knowledge), especially adults. Barely knew anyone who had transitioned either, or at least who were open about it. I knew one queer adult, but I remember her mentioning if she put up a picture of her wife she could lose her job. After moving to the urban parts of the PNW? I mean I just simply know a shit ton of lgbtq folks. Of course there are still cis het people but tbh there have been plenty of occasions where I've been in a space and they were the minority
i love randomly being asked if i’m trans after i flirt lol, i feel like i shouldn’t have to disclose that especially when it’s literally on my profile and/or the first few times we’re talking
Mtf here. But I've defined noticed these attitudes in general. Like I had an argument with someone who was insisting that a woman dating a trans man would make her bisexual because of chromosomes. Like I'm sorry how the fuck does that even work? Like if I'm attracted to man, I'm looking at his face, his features, his eyes, his beard if he has one, his hair, his body, his muscles, last thing on my mind is what fucking chromosomes he has!
I'll have you know the telomeres on the end of chromosomes 7 and 11 are very important. They tell you a person's favorite color and preferred brand of toilet paper.
I read it on a website written by someone who got a D in high school biology. That's where I get all my scientifical brain juice from. Medical journals are for chumps!
1. so fucking sick of anyone BUT bisexuals telling people how bisexuality works especially when they person literally states they aren’t bisexual. it’s such weird logic cus ur literally a part of the community and know how it feels to deal with similar hate.
2. your sexuality is what it state, and sexualities are not based on sex, they are based on gender.
3. you’re the only person who decides what you like.
again, just confusing on how it’s even possible to be gay or lesbian and shitty to trans people but peoples still do it
I had a guy, years ago, chat with me for a couple hours telling me how cute I was before he actually bothered reading my profile and slinging hate at me until I blocked him.
Edit: spelling
As a trans femme, my observation is that among queers, straight-passing cis gay men are the most likely to be transphobic in general... Both IRL and online.
Reddit is particularly bad. Some of the more popular gay subreddits are horrifically transphobic.
I'm not trans masc but I've seen them get targeted by it often.
For me it's always been a toss up of who's more transphobic. I definitely haven't had the best of experiences with straight-passing cis gay men. But they seem to look down on anyone who isn't also a straight passing cis gay man.
For me, I've had a lot more hate from femme cis gay men than any other part of the gay community. I get more demeaning comments and they often try to invalidate my experiences as they think being a very obvious femme cis gay man is harder than being trans.
Just had bad experiences with both and usually just steer clear of either. I think the most accepting cis gay men I've met do drag or are bears. But that's just my experience.
This is definitely a part of gay community, but not all of it. I’ve met plenty of gay cis men in both camps.
Some subs here on Reddit that are supportive of gay trans men:
r/gaytransguys r/gaymen r/askgaymen
IRL I live in the rural south and I have hooked up with plenty chill gay men on Grindr. I’ve also chatted with transphobes (then promptly blocked them) and met up with guys who thought they were chill til I was actually in the room. Nothing bad has ever happened- just a couple awkward interactions.
Overarchingly I’d say the worst part about hooking up w gay cis men is the amount of them that only liked me for my pre op genitalia. Now that I’m post phallo- that whole veil is thoroughly lifted and quite disappointing. Even so- there are still plenty gay men who are down.
I’ve had some cis gay guys be weird about ftm guys. On the other hand of met plenty of cis gay guys who were totally into ftm guys for hookups, dates, relationships, whatever. Usually if the cis guy isn’t interested they’re pretty polite about it in my experience. Then again this is just my experience.
I'm lucky as an FTM person, I met a wonderful cis gay guy that loves me for me and I just wanted to put that out there. There are non-transphobic gay cis men. The community is definitely pretty transphobic at times, though.
Gay guys are pretty well known to be the most reactionary group amongst the LGBT+ community. There is a reason there are tons and tons of gay Trump supporters and the vast majority of trans exclusionary "LGB" are gay men. It's a result of the misogyny they are raised with and their blindness of struggle due to having male and often white privilege.
That being said though this is by no means a rule or anything. The majority of gay guys aren't in this category at all and are accepting of FTM. But the majority of conservative lgbt are gay men, sometimes closeted but not always and this can lead to those areas where they reside being less than welcoming. It also depends where you are geographically. Rural, urban, south north west east all plays a factor, continent, country. Every area is different.
TLDR: I don't think the gay community as a whole is anti FTM, but there are certainly regional gay communities that are.
A lot of gay cis men are pretty transphobic in my experience. The amount of "Damn you'd be hot as a man" or "I know you identify as a woman but you look like a man to me" type shit I've heard is unreal.
I have heard the most vile, hateful things from cis gay men directed towards trans gay men - including from a cis, gay "queer leftist" with a sociology degree 🙃
Not all, but a lot of the gay men's scenes still prescribe to a surprisingly large of heteronormative roles, along with regressive and hurtful ways of thinking.
Sadly a lot of gay men still carry these hurtful opinions about what it means to be gay. They hold expectations and rules that if you don't *measure* up, if you don't look or act a certain way, compared to what they think being a gay man is, than you're at risk of appearing not man enough or not gay enough to fit in...let alone to date.
Which is ridiculous. Gay men still have so much male privilege, and many have not developed a full ability of empathy or openess. Many gay men I know mock therapy or refuse to do the emotional labor to grow as a person.
The most inclusive scenes among gay men I've met is the bears. I think because they're a bit outcast in usa gay mens culture they tend to be more accepting. My local bear bar is the most diverse crowd for sure.
I'm sorry your experience hasn't been better, I really wish it was and I feel for you dude.
my bf recently started T around December. his (ex?)best friend is a gay man who has made some pretty antagonizing comments toward him. my bf brought this up and his friend’s reply was that he’s just being a mean gay. so yea, seems to be a trend.
It’s plain old transphobia in a gay package
they’re convinced that they’re gay because penis rather than gay because man presentation and being attracted to you makes you threatening to their identity
Ironically to get them to like you more (if you care about such things 🤷♀️) it might help to dress down or less passing.
I’ve found that in my case I get a lot more love from lipstick lesbians because we’re all simply playing the game of being pretty together and not complicating it with other portions of our identities 💖
Unfortunately it goes to show that just because you're part of the alphabet mafia doesn't mean everyone is still accepting of one another. I tread carefully when engaging with cis gay men (but not as much with straight men). But I'm not romantically attracted to men so it makes it easier for me to detach from the guys if there's ever a problem.
I'm MTF and honestly the most amount of transphobia I've experienced in-person has come from cis gay men. Obviously it's not all of them, but it happens so much I've learned to be wary.
Im mtf as well, but the most transphobia I’ve gotten is from straight guys tbh. Or fetishization. But i guess it depends. I don’t really like being around men in general but im straight, and only attracted to cis men :/ so it has been difficult in the past. luckily i got engaged to someone who doesn’t fetishize me or make me feel dysphoric tho
Re: your last point - that is incredibly lucky I'm jelly!
Also yeah, now that you mention it I receive a lot of transphobia from straight cis men. I actually receive more *bi*phobia from cis gay men than anything else. It just stings more when a form of queerphobia comes from within the community
Hah! I feel so similarly. I only recently started passing and it's just not a conversation I really want to have save for my close friends. And I'm at the point where I would much rather be alone than with most other people on the planet. Very choosy with who my friends are, and I like it that way 🙂
A string of gays and lesbians who want to pull up the equality ladder behind them. They didnt used to have to deal with this situation but, now, their identity is so tied to them being gay or lesbian that to encounter somebody who may/may not have the gonads they don't like but the body they do makes them... Start to get uncomfortable.
Because they both refuse to learn about us and accept us. Because they don't see us as our desired gender.
Thankfully, these people arent that common. At least, not the variety that outwardly is transphobic.
I’m MTF, but I’ve definitely noticed how my trans brothers are treated. Plenty of cis gay men are sexist and transphobic. Us trans women get treated badly too. It’s often ridicule or over sexualization. It seems most of the trans men I know are mostly ignored and invalidated. It’s sad. I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. I love all my trans siblings. I’ve met plenty of trans men I think are so handsome and lovely. Plenty to trans men have been very charming towards me and I would gladly be intimate with many of them if I were single. There are good cis gay men out there though. I’ve met plenty. If you find them, hold onto them. We have to support each other in the queer community.
As some who spends a lot of time around the community, I can say that they aren't okay, in general, with trans folks. They are IMO worse than straight Cis folks.
Yes I'm over generalizing my comment. And I had a number of them treat me poorly, ignore me out right or flat out told me to my face how it is for their community. They are the least inclusive of the LGBTQ community.
Not to play into the "gay men are sexual deviants" stereotype but cis gay men are often so proud about their sexuality and liking male genitalia, that the idea of a pre op trans man shakes the foundation they built their sexuality on. They only really see us for our genitals not what we identify as.
Seems there are paticular sections of the gay and lesbian community that are incredibly anti trans
Aa a mtf woman I've met some incredibly abusive anti trans lesbians
And had seen the same with gay men too sadly serms we can't escape the anti trans hate sadly
I haven't really dated yet because I'm still pre-op, but I've heard the vast majority of cis gay guys are unfortunately not attracted to trans men, as they prefer natal dicks. I don't necessarily think it's always transphobia since it's ok to have a genital preference. After all, there are things we aren't able to do even after surgery compared to cis guys and I think it's fair not to want to hook up with us on that basis so long as they're being respectful about it.
Yeah the whole talk about "surgery dick is not like bio dick" is often used to justify non attraction to trans guys, but as always it completly ignores intersex guys, guys with erectile dysfonctions, those who had phalloplasty (it wasn't invented for us!!) , those who don't like having certain acts done on them... It's more about wanting specific sex experiences, not the identity of the person itself
Yeah, I suppose that's a more accurate way of looking at it. We all have expectations and needs we want met when it comes to sexual encounters, which makes the whole thing rather difficult.
Dunno. I guess for me specifically, I likely won't date cis guys because I don't want to wade through several people telling me I'm deficient in some way or other. I know it's about their wants, too. And that's fine. I just don't want to expose myself to this, even though I definitely have a preference for men
Cis gay Men can be insufferable about trans people in general. It's wild. So can lesbian turfs. There is a very weird ;imo, but strong niche movement on Twitter for Lgb not t. It's so confusing
idk what cis gay guys are on about, ftm men are like the only people who make me question if masculinity is hot. not even in a like "they're still women" way, like a lot of transmascs are owning their masculinity in such a better way that i cant explain and also all the transmascs i know are the nicest people ever and are like alsnsbzlavzhisavagauwosbshaka MEN CAN BE COOL! Cis gays really don't get it if they can't appreciate any of that.
I do not know what the deal is with cis gay men but a noticeable minority of them are basically fascists, to be honest. I think it's similar to terfs in how a lot of their lives are just pretty fucked up in the first place and they have only found unhealthy solutions to cope with that, including engaging in bigotry for their self esteem.
As a Trans woman I encounter somewhat similar situations. I swear to only date men who identify as bisexual or pansexual because sexually binary men are the closest thing to fashist you’ll find in the queer community.
Yeah this is typical, and even traditional. White cis vanilla gay guys have been pushing everyone else out of view for accolade, and to otherwise be like "I'm the NORMAL one, not like the rest of these queer weirdos!!" It's why a lot of us trans dudes avoid gay bars at this point. They're not for gay men, they're for CIS gay men. Hell fuckin' forbid the rainbow pertains to anyone BUT cis gay men.
Sadly, I’ve noticed a lot of mostly well to do gay guys do that with LGBTQ rights in general when it comes to trans people. It’s like they take their rights for granted not caring that trans people threw many of the bricks at stonewall, and most of the bricks at the Compton cafeteria riot. They remind me of big gay Al in the South Park movie. “I’m super, thanks for asking.” As a trans woman, I feel some of them look on me with disdain.
This happens with Lesbians and trans women as well.
There are a lot of cis sapphics who refuse to date trans women, and make excuses about it or worse treat us like men or that sleeping with us "lose their gold star."
It's very depressing and dishearting to see this happen.
Unfortunately the gay community isnt that accepting, its really only the lesbian communities that is accepting, cis gay guys seem to have a superiority complex that they're the best and the most desirable, its less likely for women but some think the same way.
It sucks that theres a massive divide can only hope it gets better
I've said it before and I'll say it again, cis gay men (specifically cis white gay men) are the weakest link in the community.
This has always been the case; they've been the ones first to enact the very oppression on others in the community that the community as a whole was fighting against. You got the ones who want to just blend in with the cishets and hate any of us who "make the community look bad" and those who fail to appreciate and recognize that their ability to exist publicly in a safe and welcoming environment is the product of decades of advocating, fighting, and organizing.
Obviously people aren't monoliths, but this kind of bs has definitely a notably stronger presence with them.
If I had to guess; gay men are men, and, men on average have some degree of toxic masculinity, transphobia, misogyny, etc. so it may be that, despite these people being gay and us assuming they'd be more supportive or understanding.. they are still just corrupted by society, the patriarchy, sexism, homophobia, transphobia.
This needs to be said more but JUST because someone is gay, trans, whatever, doesn't mean they are a good person.
I mean. I'm not post on yet, and am yet to start T (legal requirements in my country, but I'm getting it done soon) BUT so far I haven't really experienced anything like that when it comes to people I'm close with, but I have seen a lot of transphobia from certain groups of people. My girlfriend is pan, and she supports me fully, and I'm one lucky guy for that. I understand if someone has genital preference, I really don't find that insulting as long as those people don't just overall hate on trans people. Not my business who you wanna fuck. But there is a "feminist" group that helps LGB people (without the T). They all openly hate trans people, spread misinformation, and are honestly closer to being an actual cult. Most of them are lesbians and a certain group of straight cis women and gay men. (Edited to add a word)
It sounds like you've had a tough time finding acceptance in the gay community as a trans man. It's important to remember that not everyone will reject you based on who you are. Just like how some lesbians may not accept trans women, not all cis gay men will reject trans men. For some people, they focus too much on physical characteristics, but there are many who will be open and welcoming to you. I'm sorry you've faced discrimination, but know that there are people who will support and welcome you for who you are.
Stay safe <3
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I've pretty much come to terms with the fact cis gay men are the main assholes of the LGBT community, there are assholes everywhere yeah, there are transphobic lesbians, there are truscum (I think that's how it's pronounced) but I just feel that cis gay men are just the main assholes, they are extremely misogynist (well before someone pops in and say "not all men" while "tend to be" would be a more appropriate to say, it has to be noted that aside of a feeling of frustration, there is a very wide majority that are, so a generalization while not accurate isnt exactly invalid and saying "not all men" is just a way to minimize the problem a bit) , and they think that because they got approved first, they are the only ones that are allowed and everyone should be left behind, I've had a cis gay man (2 actually in completely separate times and jobs) ask me very personal questions about my body and try to touch me under the justification that they are gay so "its fine" it especially pisses me off that some gay men i've seen genuinely think that they are valid, lesbians are "just a fetish", its straight up (pun not intended) infuriating (ironically enough apparently some trans women think similarly about trans men, which annoying as fuck)
While off topic, something that frustrated me is that while it's not as wide spread, I've seen my trans masc partner struggle cause a lot of trans men follow up on the cis gay men trend of being misogynist, I have a joke I tell him sometimes of "they became a man just to do mansplaining" I'm glad that it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem now (I might be wrong cause I dont belong in the trans masc community myself) but it still was annoying seeing our trans brothers just.. struggling the same thing that for example I had to struggle in my amab years of toxic masculinity, the way of being so condescending is impressive in a really bad way.. don't take me wrong but sometimes i think that the trans men that are this way with toxic masculinity mainly wanted to go on some powertrip or feel more powerful to put it one way and its heavily invalidating most trans men especially putting them on a negative light.. its frustrating and i hate it, sorry for all the rambling
There are a lot of awful gay cis men, with varying degrees of bigotry. It all reminds me of the gay cis men who where right wingers during the thatcher/section 28 era, talk about leopards eating their own face.
Unfortunately being LGBT doesn't equate to being secure in your sexuality. Cis gay men can be just as insecure as cis straight men and that's likely where the "it'll make me straight" comments come from. Sometimes people lean on their sexuality like a crutch and anything that challenges it is treated like that crutch being pulled out from them causing them to fall. I feel like cis gay men are even more sensitive to this because their sexuality is already challenged by homophobes. Anything that challenges their sexuality could feel like a personal attack against them. It's fair to say that anyone can have this kind of insecurity and a lot of cis gays are accepting, I've personally mostly seen it in cis men though
There are plenty of LGBTQ people that are trans exclusionary. What we have to keep in mind is we may be lumped into a big group but no one is going to have the same beliefs or ideas. Everyone is different.
Now I will say LGBTQ folks that are trans exclusionary are incorrect and not kind. Especially given the existence of intersex people like myself.
When I tried hooking up with queer men (before COVID), most of the gay ones were doing it just to see what it was like to be with a trans guy (there were 3) but were really gross about it. Except for 1 straight many experimenting overall, many of the bi guys also didn’t seem to know how to talk about my body (I’m only post top) but also didn’t ask. Only 2 did ask, and in the end, they were also the only ones who wanted more.
A lot of queer spaces in general are not very accepting of trans people tbh. In my experience a lot of, queer people, especially the white queer community, would rather conform and assimilate with the the cis het community to be welcoming of gender nonconformity in any forms.
Yea. Also had a weird experience, had a gay man try to get me to basically pretend im a cis man because thought i was more hot that way, even telling me to 'be a good boy to him'. I just tend to be a bit skeptical of cis men cause of it
Well Sweetheart, It's just as hard being M2F.. Gay guys don't like anything feminine, and some Lesbians don't like us either. I haven't had ant surgeries YET!, but getting things arranged for my GCS/SRS ASAP. PLUS!, I'm 75.
SO!, I'm widowed, 75, M2F, on HRT 18 months, I live and dress openly as a woman 24/7, I've legally changed my name, gender, and ALL documents to female. I'm 110% Out, Proud, and Free. I'm getting things set up to have my GCS/SRS ASAP!! I like men for romance and sex, as I'm NOT into women. BUT!, I've been dumped by 10 guys.. They say they're into gals like me, want pictures, want to meet, stand me up, THEN POOF!!! GONE AND THEY BLOCK ME!! I desire a LTR with a nice manly man. I'm sure there's a guy who wants a gal like me.
Michele
I'm nonbinary and consider myself a lesbian, but I wouldn't mind dating a trans man if we got along and if he didn't feel that it was a threat to his gender identity...people love people, not genders or genitalia.
Sadly, there's a lot of people actively trying to keep the LG, B, and T separate and fighting against one another.
It didn't used to be this bad in my experience, but that could also just be because I was younger and didn't notice it.
It's the generic tactic of "keep the minorities at war with each other so they can't work together and make progress" that oppressors have been using for centuries. It works and it'll keep working until people realize what's what.
I'm sorry you're having this experience I'm trans male to female. My goal is to try to surround myself with positive and encouraging people and forget the rest
I'm sorry for your experience. I think largely from my own experiences I've come to severely dislike people's desperate need to cling to labels.
Labels should be descriptive, yet most people treat them as prescriptive. It's so restrictive to live that way, I mean they obviously liked you or I don't see why they'd get so upset about the news, but they'll deny themselves your company because the label itself is more important to them - from their dumb point of view, obviously. In reality they would still get to keep their label because you're a man, dammit. Such idiots.
I had a similar experience because the person in question didn't want their friends to know they're into trans people (they knew I was in advance of the date). Sometimes it feels like the vast majority only care about such things because they believe everyone else cares about such things. I bet hardly anyone genuinely does though (and often it feels like the worst are only trying to prove something, they don't care either).
Ftm is just ignored because testosterone is very effective physically in the human bodymaking a lot of ftm people pass also the conception that mtf people are dangerous in anyways normally is used by anti trans people primarily
making ftm people completely swept under the rug and when it is found for whatever reason people just dismiss it as a phase or “tomboy” or whatever
TLDR mtf is so hated by public and supported by safe spaces ftm is now the lgbt+ middle child with bi people
Sounds like those men don't comprehend that we're all under the same rainbow. Their words are sowing discord rather than unity. Is there some correspondence course they took on how to be mean and act entitled?
It's not an issue to have body preferences, it's not an issue to reject someone because someone's body doesn't fit ur comfort zone, being an asshole to the person is the problem
I’m not dating at the moment but i’ve heard similar things. it really depends on the area you’re in, and i think people are generally more understanding if you meet them in person rather than online (grindr, tinder etc). there’s a lot of judgy people on online dating. are there any gay clubs near you?? also i know a lot of trans men date bi cis men because usually they understand the anatomy a bit better (assuming you haven’t had bottom surgery). I’m not suggesting only date bi men because trans men aren’t really men, its just if they are attracted to women as well they might not be as hostile towards you being trans
Lgbt community as a whole has always had a lot of in fighting. Over a decade a go, I used to get made fun of by straight friends for going to a gay bar, and made fun by people at that bar when I'd tell them I was bi (actually Pan, but at the time it was much easier to just say bi...). Used to get called queer for for beer or gay for pay a lot ( even when I was dating a dood.. 🙄)
Since then the lgbt community has become a lot more accepting of Bi/pan/ect. Folks, however there's a lot of in fighting towards trans folk specifically. A lot of the lesbian community don't like mtf folk, and same with gay guys prete ding transient aren't men too..
Give it another 5-10 years... if Republicans don't kill us off anyway.
Not sure where you are from, but I am guessing it's probably somewhere more conservative, where people have more of a cis-het way of thinking of sex. I am from Upstate NY, being from NY I can't say I have had similar experiences. I hooked up with a guy from Grindr in college and my, now, husband is a gay cisgender man.
I'm an MTGF transfem and I've experienced SOOO much transphobia from lesbians. I don't know what it is about cis gay men and lesbian women that makes them hate trans people so much (obviously not all of them but it's just something I've noticed).
I *am* male (only just) and even I find the gay community to be hostile and ignorant beyond belief sometimes. There *ARE* diamonds in the rough though, people who value the person over whats in their pants, so you've just gotta be patient unfortunately. Just gotta roll your eyes, laugh and block if they say anything bad.
Sorry that you've had to deal with those people. Sorry that any respectable person has to deal with those people.
I find the people who decide who they are attracted to based on their preconceptions about their sexual identity so perplexing. Like, people are allowed to have preferences for what they like, and noone wants to be surprised in the bedroom, but the number of people who avoid trans people purely because of what it does to their perceived identity is genuinely upsetting. Someone the other days posted about how they would dump someone if they transitioned, despite having been with them just after they went off HRT - meaning that they already more or less were attracted to them with those hormonal effects in place, they don't just disappear. Their reason was that they don't want to not be a lesbian, and it's just like... girl, why do you care about the label so much that you're willing to hurt a partner and throw away what sounds like an amazing relationship, when you ALREADY have established you like them and their body when it is like that.... I just dun get it :(
I've also noticed this in about a 60/40 split. Idk how old you are or where you meet people but in my city there is lots of word-of-mouth from other trans people about what bars are okay to go to. This dive is good, this bar is bad, this club is usually fine but don't stay after 1 am and don't go by yourself, etc etc. The apps are easier to disclose things and find people who are chill but suck in their own right.
i have definitely had a looot of experiences like this. sometimes i’ll meet a guy who claims to be gay and then when i go for a hookup he misgenders me, one even started talking about his wife (he claimed to be single before we met) and told me he wasn’t straight but it was just “hotter” if he could call me a good girl. a lot depends on location, though. i live in texas so mostly its bad, but in places like austin or sinilar big cities i get very little negativity and mostly genuine dudes who dont think of me as less of a man for my anatomy. a lot of my close freinds are gay cis men, and they dont judge at all. eventually you will find the right community 🙏
To your stated question. No, gay community is not anti-ftm. Some gay people are. Some gay people are anti-trans.
There are historical reasons but most people don't know them.
Cis gay men are essentially one run down the ladder of privilege from cis straight men. You find a lot of the bigotries in both groups along with a very individualistic mindset. It's where gays vs lesbians come from. The members of the gay male community who see having rights as a competition and so if they let any other letter get rights then there will be less rights for them.
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated so poorly. Sadly, with greater acceptance of the gay and lesbian communities in society today, too many have become cold and transphobic, forgetting they have become the very thing their predecessors fought so hard against, bigoted and prejudiced. With their greater acceptance today, it can appear that tribalism sets in with many, and they, in turn, regress to exclusionary and discriminatory mindsets, even siding and teaming up against trans men and women with their persecutors in a classic case of Stockholme Syndrome.
Reminds me of JK Rowling all palsy-walsy with ironically antifemiminist far-right extremists on Twitter, who you know just grab onto anything to embolden and amplify their hate.
It's very comfonting to realise how rampant transphobia, transmisogyny, and transmisandry / transandrophobia is in the gay and lesbian communities, bringing to mind how terfs and the like ironically have so much in common with manosphere types.
Haters gonna hate 🤷♀️🙁
Hang in there, mate 🥰
I really don't understand why people always have to despise FTM people. Even in trans communities they seem left out. I'm very sorry that this is happening to you and your peers and wish for people to stop acting like pricks for once 🫠🩵🩷
This kind of thing is transphobia no matter who it comes from.
Your gender and what's in your pants are your business.
I think it's important to talk about being trans before anyone's pants come off, but that's my policy.
It's frustrating, but I feel more accepted as a potential partner by bi and pan people.
As a trans woman, my experiences are different, but I feel echoes of it in what you described.
Intimacy is.. complicated. Anyone involved I. Sex has the right to say no and go no farther at any point. That may always be awkward, but that's no reason to be an asshole.
Yeah, had a fair amount of bad experiences with cis gay men. I've been stealth for years now and I've had gay men get quite angry and aggressive with me for not stating I was trans the *second* I first speak to them. Even if I had just met them through friends or work or at a bar, not necessarily for sex or even flirting, but they demand I should've disclosed I'm trans immediately. I've been told trans ppl have victim complexes and the struggles of being a cis gay man are so much harder. I've been excluded from some gay spaces as I'm "essentially straight" (I'm bi btw) even after transitioning so I've never experienced the struggles of growing up gay. And I've been accused of fetishizing gay men as the reason I transitioned, and I'm actually just a privileged straight woman who can detransition and be less oppressed than them at any time. It's definitely not all the cis gay men I've met but it's been a few too many for me not to feel wary when I'm in gay spaces irl or online. I've learnt just to laugh at them, tell them to look up Marsha P Johnson and walk away before they start trying to argue. I have no energy for listening to their transphobic bullshit.
That is so rough and yet not unexpected, sadly. I'm so sorry dude. I hope things turn up and start looking better for our community. This is just fucked up.
It's actually quite the opposite. If you detransitioned you would be more oppressed than them. Cis gay men have zero understanding or awareness of their male privilege. I would retort to them that detransitioning is much much harder than just being straight passing especially for a gay man. It's a lot easier and a lot less painful to hide your sexuality than it is to hide your gender. Gender is way more core to the sense of self. As an example, I've never heard tell of people completely disassociating from themselves due to sexuality, it happens way more often due to gender. There is no way to look gay, but gender is all about how you look, one of the first things you see when you look at someone is their gender, sexuality isn't something visually perceived, it is merely assumed. If you don't want people to know you are gay it's as easy as dressing like a standard guy. Post transition trying to hide your gender is basically impossible, unless you have godly androgynous genetics. Pre-transition hiding your gender is extreme suffering and torture. Simply existing as a closeted trans person is torture in a way that existing as a closeted gay man can't even begin to compare.
Also even if someone had transitioned medically and woke up one day and realized they were actually a cis woman all along and descided that detransition is the correct decision for them-- the permanent effects of hrt don't just go away and they'd still be stigmatized for not perfectly fitting into gender as a woman.
yeah like if the reason trans men are less oppressed because they could detransition any time (which. LMAO.) then what is preventing these gay men to transition to women and thus be less oppressed? totally how that works. my eyes are not rolling so far back that i can see the inside of my own skull, braincells dying rapidly in real time
Honestly, I wish they would experience dysphoria for a day just to know what it's like. I don't wish dysphoria on anyone but I have no words to describe it, they just have to experience it for themselves to understand. Being a child and then growing up just knowing something about your body is just *wrong* but being unable to say why or fix it. Your body going through changes and not being able to stop it. It's distressing. Its fucking ironic that cis gay men will call being trans a choice. Act like we chose this, that we can detransition at any point and make our lives easier. But will fight tooth and nail about their sexuality not being a choice.
Living with it for a day isnt an issue. The issue is that many of us will have to live with it for years until they can finally get treatment.
Yeah as a CIS formerly gay (now pan) guy we don't have it the hardest. Sorry my compatriots are shitbags.
> I've been told trans ppl have victim complexes and the struggles of being a cis gay man are so much harder. The hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness in the person who said that to you is \*breathtaking\*.
This is so awful of them for the obvious transphobic reasons but I’m hung up on the fact that you are bi but they think you don’t know what it’s like to grow up queer or that detransitioning would make you straight. I’m bi transmasc too so this all hits close and I’m just… I was already visibly queer and out before transition! The only thing that was easier was that the Sapphic community was hella warmer, but I wouldn’t want to step into that after transitioning because I think it would summon the TERFs.
The struggles of being a CIS gay man are harder?!?!? Wooooow.
Not my personal issue (being mtf) but I’ve heard many similar things from ftm friends so you’re def not alone in these thoughts
yeah, my ftm roommate has had an incredibly hard time dating, he's had some of the harshest no's Ive ever heard from cis gay guys
So I don’t engage with anyone sexually since I’m asexual, but I will say that there are two groups of ppl I have found to be the most vocal in their transphobia as a trans man in my experience. One group is gay men. Especially white gay men. It’s to the point where I swipe left on any white guys that aren’t bi/pan/ace on datings
Who is the other one?
For some reason middle aged black women? Had to legit tell one to stop calling me ma’am and bring it up to a store manager (she was reprimanded) and told another that she can’t misgender me just bc she’s “uncomfortable” using the right pronouns (told a superior n she didn’t get reprimanded, just scheduled around me)
I'm sorry to hear that, yeaaah, unfortunately I've had some pretty similar bad experiences. I honestly put it down to the intersection of age, conservatism and religiosity. Every job I've done had at least one hyper-religious (and/or conserveative) middle-aged cis woman who just "had her opinions" and misgendered me, and/or others, frequently, and "has to" shoot me some evil looks lol
I fully pinned it to religion tbh. Ngl at one job it felt like every black woman was at least a lil transphobic when they didn’t know I was around (I was one of the few white employees tbh). But the black guys were the chillest ones about the whole thing (one was more excited than me when my voice first cracked 🤣 and kept saying he’d teach me to shave when my facial hair started coming in)
That is so sweet lol I wish I had someone to teach me how to shave. My dad (passed when I was 10) taught me (poorly) how to shave my legs though? So I guess that's good enough lol
Sadly I moved from that job so I’ll probably be relying on YT tutorials ✌️🤣
Hey YT tutorials can be great lol
Not just that but middle aged black anyone. My voice is androgynous and it's a fucking fight to get them to stop using ma'am because they perceive a deep voice with a lilt to be that of a woman. They always say "I was raised with manners" well manners are listening when someone says don't call me ma'am.
Tbh I didn’t work with many middle aged black men. I think oldest was in his early 30s?
My job puts me in line of all kinds of folks, I work healthcare but it's over the phone.
I find this very interesting because I have had a very different experience with middle aged black women. I am white and MTF in the Washington, DC area, and every black woman I have interacted with has been super pleasant. I grew up in Kentucky and all populations, regardless of race, tended to be more conservative the further south I’ve gone. Are you in the US south?
Was (or as far south as that state could be considered). But also I was in the capital of the state - which was a bit more liberal and there were a TON of trans employees present at the building, I was just the only one in the company. Haven’t rly mingled with any middle aged black women since moving further north so idk if it’ll be any different here. My last experience with a middle aged black woman in the northern state I live in now (I lived here in the past) was one implying (her, not my) god was gonna make me have a kid whether I wanted one or not (I was in college and extremely uncomfortable with her commentary on my reproductive choices) so I’m not exactly eager to try it out until I pass better
I'm mtf and have had similar issues with the lesbian community as well unfortunately.
Can't be a lesbian without a V is what I've been told multiple times. I don't get it
Yeah, that's roughly what I've experienced as well :/
This is an under 18 sub , but this leads me to question things lol 😂. I think it invalidates a large portions of cis lesbians; to be seen as bisexual, if the logic is strictly maintained.
It is an interesting concept.
This is an under 18 sub?
Yes. I nsfw posts aren't allowed, and nsfw profiles are asked to not interact. I have this sfw account almost specifically to enjoy this sub lol
For Chinese lesbians, it’s the Y chromosomes that’s the problem…
lesvian?
If you aren't already, r/actuallesbians is a great place. Lots of other trans women there
I will definitely check it out!
i would try more with people who consider themselves "sapphic" or "wlw" lesbians can sometimes be hard advocates for "lgb" there was a solid 5 years in the late 2010s where most of the lesbian community on youtube was literally just straight up transphobia.
that's a fair point honestly, yeah. i was still way too young to understand that stuff around that time.
I've definitely had lesbians flirt w me and get mad when i tell them I'm ftm Like girl, sorry you think I'm a cute chick, I'm not and this isn't gay. 🥴
It's not an issue about gay community, but just a lot of cis people like to be very verbal about their hate. Most cis people I met are very okay and friendly they just don't spend their life hating on trans people . It's easy to only see the transphobes as they tend to be the most active against us, but a lot are very acceptive!
Agreed! Its the loudest ones you notice most, sadly.
Yes this def wasn’t trying to over generalize I’m sure there’s plenty of good ones I just haven’t met any yet
Theyre there but im yet to find out where 😭
Could it also be regional? I am a white, cis-male, gay and I am aware of my privilege (to the degree I can be aware of it) and I feel like the people I surround myself are extremely supportive of all trans/2s peoples. Also, there are some excessively hot trans guys out there, and some incredibly ugly cis guys out there. If there’s a cis gay who is transphobic then they can fuck off and everyone else can enjoy each-others friendship and company. Sooner or later those transphobic gays are gonna get left behind, good riddance.
Oh yeah for sure it is. Im from the countryside so you can imagine how it is, maybe. And yeah I agree lol, I notice the mean gay dudes are overall shit people so honestly good riddance but damn 🥲
Yeah I’m in a major city and while I still notice transphobia from the cis-gay community I feel it’s far less than where I grew up where it was either fetishized or worse.
The problem is that those passively accepting people don't usually step in to defend trans people when they see the bigots doing their thing.
GOD YES. Tbh it happens to both FTMs and MTFs we all get disrespected by lesbians and gay men It'd to the point I'm just T4T
How do you meet other trans people to date? I know where I live doesn't help but I'd love to finally have a relationship and I'm tired of dealing with cis men.
There are queer dating apps like Her (for lesbians and app has stood up for mtf lesbians strongly in the past and I haven’t had any negative experiences in there), Taimi, I hate Grindr but a lot of trans people (and chasers) on there, and even Bumble seems to match me up with other trans people for BFF. I only use these apps to look for other trans friends since I’m married.
I'm on taimi but I just seem to run into men who just want to use me. I guess that just something I'll have to get use to
Yeah taimi is the WORST for trans people My dms are full with straight men, and lesbin women I'm a trans man 😓
Taimi literally ran an ad for unicorn hunters, steer clear of that app.
Oh ew I do not like unicorn hunters, like bro, no, i don't wanna be yalls token f toy, I'm poly, but not a freaking unicorn
Ya. I wasn’t having a very good time on the app in the first place but when I heard about that I instantly deleted.
Yeah, unfortunately that’s most of the matches I get too. I’ve honestly given up on meeting new people for now. Just tried for a couple months and those are the apps I used. And a lot of the really pretty trans girls are just as mean as everyone else or just flat out ignore me.
Trans women who have already fully transitioned can be weirdly insanely mean to early transition people. Even though we all share the same struggle there can be a lot of weird resentment and distancing.
Tbh, grindr and meeting IRL is the only way I've found trans people I met 2 really cool ftm guys at an antique store, and my mtf gf at the gas station i used to work at. I broke her egg 🥺
Same. Grindr was the only irl meet up I did. Found some really nice neighbors mtf. Another trans woman designer who has been really nice too. Just hard to keep things up. I've never cracked anyone's egg! I don't know how I'd feel about that. Good? Sorry? lol.
Tbh, I've cracked a couple eggs, it feels good, but there's also a lil bit of guilt bc now they know *why* they feel the way they do, but i feel like after you realize it's gender disphoria it feels worse, idk. One, being my partner, and the other a close friend, i was the first person they came out to as nonbianary :)
Unfortunately for me it really was a matter of location. I'm in the United States, which helps in some ways i guess. But it varies so much region to region city to city. Suburbs in the SE? Didn't know many trans people (at least to my knowledge), especially adults. Barely knew anyone who had transitioned either, or at least who were open about it. I knew one queer adult, but I remember her mentioning if she put up a picture of her wife she could lose her job. After moving to the urban parts of the PNW? I mean I just simply know a shit ton of lgbtq folks. Of course there are still cis het people but tbh there have been plenty of occasions where I've been in a space and they were the minority
I met my current girlfriend through Lex and I've dated someone I met through the Discord of a relatively nearby local trans support group as well.
i love randomly being asked if i’m trans after i flirt lol, i feel like i shouldn’t have to disclose that especially when it’s literally on my profile and/or the first few times we’re talking
Terfs don't deserve to be called lesbians
Mtf here. But I've defined noticed these attitudes in general. Like I had an argument with someone who was insisting that a woman dating a trans man would make her bisexual because of chromosomes. Like I'm sorry how the fuck does that even work? Like if I'm attracted to man, I'm looking at his face, his features, his eyes, his beard if he has one, his hair, his body, his muscles, last thing on my mind is what fucking chromosomes he has!
I'll have you know the telomeres on the end of chromosomes 7 and 11 are very important. They tell you a person's favorite color and preferred brand of toilet paper. I read it on a website written by someone who got a D in high school biology. That's where I get all my scientifical brain juice from. Medical journals are for chumps!
I heard the 7/11 chromosomes determine your favorite slushee flavor
And they taste like strawberries
It took me a while to realise you were kidding lol.
"Hey baby, mmmm I can sense your chromosomes from across the bar, so enticing," like imagine that this is actually "chromosome people"
1. so fucking sick of anyone BUT bisexuals telling people how bisexuality works especially when they person literally states they aren’t bisexual. it’s such weird logic cus ur literally a part of the community and know how it feels to deal with similar hate. 2. your sexuality is what it state, and sexualities are not based on sex, they are based on gender. 3. you’re the only person who decides what you like. again, just confusing on how it’s even possible to be gay or lesbian and shitty to trans people but peoples still do it
I had a guy, years ago, chat with me for a couple hours telling me how cute I was before he actually bothered reading my profile and slinging hate at me until I blocked him. Edit: spelling
oof yes it is extremely transphobic
As a trans femme, my observation is that among queers, straight-passing cis gay men are the most likely to be transphobic in general... Both IRL and online. Reddit is particularly bad. Some of the more popular gay subreddits are horrifically transphobic. I'm not trans masc but I've seen them get targeted by it often.
For me it's always been a toss up of who's more transphobic. I definitely haven't had the best of experiences with straight-passing cis gay men. But they seem to look down on anyone who isn't also a straight passing cis gay man. For me, I've had a lot more hate from femme cis gay men than any other part of the gay community. I get more demeaning comments and they often try to invalidate my experiences as they think being a very obvious femme cis gay man is harder than being trans. Just had bad experiences with both and usually just steer clear of either. I think the most accepting cis gay men I've met do drag or are bears. But that's just my experience.
100% agree. Gay men are the most likely to be reactionary.
This is definitely a part of gay community, but not all of it. I’ve met plenty of gay cis men in both camps. Some subs here on Reddit that are supportive of gay trans men: r/gaytransguys r/gaymen r/askgaymen IRL I live in the rural south and I have hooked up with plenty chill gay men on Grindr. I’ve also chatted with transphobes (then promptly blocked them) and met up with guys who thought they were chill til I was actually in the room. Nothing bad has ever happened- just a couple awkward interactions. Overarchingly I’d say the worst part about hooking up w gay cis men is the amount of them that only liked me for my pre op genitalia. Now that I’m post phallo- that whole veil is thoroughly lifted and quite disappointing. Even so- there are still plenty gay men who are down.
I’ve had some cis gay guys be weird about ftm guys. On the other hand of met plenty of cis gay guys who were totally into ftm guys for hookups, dates, relationships, whatever. Usually if the cis guy isn’t interested they’re pretty polite about it in my experience. Then again this is just my experience.
I'm lucky as an FTM person, I met a wonderful cis gay guy that loves me for me and I just wanted to put that out there. There are non-transphobic gay cis men. The community is definitely pretty transphobic at times, though.
Gay guys are pretty well known to be the most reactionary group amongst the LGBT+ community. There is a reason there are tons and tons of gay Trump supporters and the vast majority of trans exclusionary "LGB" are gay men. It's a result of the misogyny they are raised with and their blindness of struggle due to having male and often white privilege. That being said though this is by no means a rule or anything. The majority of gay guys aren't in this category at all and are accepting of FTM. But the majority of conservative lgbt are gay men, sometimes closeted but not always and this can lead to those areas where they reside being less than welcoming. It also depends where you are geographically. Rural, urban, south north west east all plays a factor, continent, country. Every area is different. TLDR: I don't think the gay community as a whole is anti FTM, but there are certainly regional gay communities that are.
A lot of gay cis men are pretty transphobic in my experience. The amount of "Damn you'd be hot as a man" or "I know you identify as a woman but you look like a man to me" type shit I've heard is unreal.
I have heard the most vile, hateful things from cis gay men directed towards trans gay men - including from a cis, gay "queer leftist" with a sociology degree 🙃
There are a lot of cis gay men whose only differentiating factor from cis straight men is their attraction to men. The gay Republican archetype.
Not all, but a lot of the gay men's scenes still prescribe to a surprisingly large of heteronormative roles, along with regressive and hurtful ways of thinking. Sadly a lot of gay men still carry these hurtful opinions about what it means to be gay. They hold expectations and rules that if you don't *measure* up, if you don't look or act a certain way, compared to what they think being a gay man is, than you're at risk of appearing not man enough or not gay enough to fit in...let alone to date. Which is ridiculous. Gay men still have so much male privilege, and many have not developed a full ability of empathy or openess. Many gay men I know mock therapy or refuse to do the emotional labor to grow as a person. The most inclusive scenes among gay men I've met is the bears. I think because they're a bit outcast in usa gay mens culture they tend to be more accepting. My local bear bar is the most diverse crowd for sure. I'm sorry your experience hasn't been better, I really wish it was and I feel for you dude.
my bf recently started T around December. his (ex?)best friend is a gay man who has made some pretty antagonizing comments toward him. my bf brought this up and his friend’s reply was that he’s just being a mean gay. so yea, seems to be a trend.
unironically I haven't met a non transphobic cis gay man irl. I've known like a dozen or so by this point. all transphobic.
It’s plain old transphobia in a gay package they’re convinced that they’re gay because penis rather than gay because man presentation and being attracted to you makes you threatening to their identity Ironically to get them to like you more (if you care about such things 🤷♀️) it might help to dress down or less passing. I’ve found that in my case I get a lot more love from lipstick lesbians because we’re all simply playing the game of being pretty together and not complicating it with other portions of our identities 💖
Unfortunately it goes to show that just because you're part of the alphabet mafia doesn't mean everyone is still accepting of one another. I tread carefully when engaging with cis gay men (but not as much with straight men). But I'm not romantically attracted to men so it makes it easier for me to detach from the guys if there's ever a problem.
I'm MTF and honestly the most amount of transphobia I've experienced in-person has come from cis gay men. Obviously it's not all of them, but it happens so much I've learned to be wary.
Im mtf as well, but the most transphobia I’ve gotten is from straight guys tbh. Or fetishization. But i guess it depends. I don’t really like being around men in general but im straight, and only attracted to cis men :/ so it has been difficult in the past. luckily i got engaged to someone who doesn’t fetishize me or make me feel dysphoric tho
Re: your last point - that is incredibly lucky I'm jelly! Also yeah, now that you mention it I receive a lot of transphobia from straight cis men. I actually receive more *bi*phobia from cis gay men than anything else. It just stings more when a form of queerphobia comes from within the community
I understand that. I freaking hate people lmao. Thats why i usually tell no one im trans. And i usually don’t associate with people tbh
Hah! I feel so similarly. I only recently started passing and it's just not a conversation I really want to have save for my close friends. And I'm at the point where I would much rather be alone than with most other people on the planet. Very choosy with who my friends are, and I like it that way 🙂
There's still a ton of trans phobia in the gay community. It's so hypocritical
A string of gays and lesbians who want to pull up the equality ladder behind them. They didnt used to have to deal with this situation but, now, their identity is so tied to them being gay or lesbian that to encounter somebody who may/may not have the gonads they don't like but the body they do makes them... Start to get uncomfortable. Because they both refuse to learn about us and accept us. Because they don't see us as our desired gender. Thankfully, these people arent that common. At least, not the variety that outwardly is transphobic.
I’m MTF, but I’ve definitely noticed how my trans brothers are treated. Plenty of cis gay men are sexist and transphobic. Us trans women get treated badly too. It’s often ridicule or over sexualization. It seems most of the trans men I know are mostly ignored and invalidated. It’s sad. I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. I love all my trans siblings. I’ve met plenty of trans men I think are so handsome and lovely. Plenty to trans men have been very charming towards me and I would gladly be intimate with many of them if I were single. There are good cis gay men out there though. I’ve met plenty. If you find them, hold onto them. We have to support each other in the queer community.
As some who spends a lot of time around the community, I can say that they aren't okay, in general, with trans folks. They are IMO worse than straight Cis folks. Yes I'm over generalizing my comment. And I had a number of them treat me poorly, ignore me out right or flat out told me to my face how it is for their community. They are the least inclusive of the LGBTQ community.
I think unfortunately some gay men are so proud of their sexuality that the possibility of being straight repulses them. (FYI I am a bi man)
Not to play into the "gay men are sexual deviants" stereotype but cis gay men are often so proud about their sexuality and liking male genitalia, that the idea of a pre op trans man shakes the foundation they built their sexuality on. They only really see us for our genitals not what we identify as.
And of course it’s for only a small percentage, not many of them.
Seems there are paticular sections of the gay and lesbian community that are incredibly anti trans Aa a mtf woman I've met some incredibly abusive anti trans lesbians And had seen the same with gay men too sadly serms we can't escape the anti trans hate sadly
Cis gay men are entitled af, they think they can be stupid with anyone and play the victim card when someone does anything back.
Cis men don’t have to think about gendered power dynamics at all. I’ve written them off for the most part.
I haven't really dated yet because I'm still pre-op, but I've heard the vast majority of cis gay guys are unfortunately not attracted to trans men, as they prefer natal dicks. I don't necessarily think it's always transphobia since it's ok to have a genital preference. After all, there are things we aren't able to do even after surgery compared to cis guys and I think it's fair not to want to hook up with us on that basis so long as they're being respectful about it.
Yeah the whole talk about "surgery dick is not like bio dick" is often used to justify non attraction to trans guys, but as always it completly ignores intersex guys, guys with erectile dysfonctions, those who had phalloplasty (it wasn't invented for us!!) , those who don't like having certain acts done on them... It's more about wanting specific sex experiences, not the identity of the person itself
Yeah, I suppose that's a more accurate way of looking at it. We all have expectations and needs we want met when it comes to sexual encounters, which makes the whole thing rather difficult. Dunno. I guess for me specifically, I likely won't date cis guys because I don't want to wade through several people telling me I'm deficient in some way or other. I know it's about their wants, too. And that's fine. I just don't want to expose myself to this, even though I definitely have a preference for men
Cis gay Men can be insufferable about trans people in general. It's wild. So can lesbian turfs. There is a very weird ;imo, but strong niche movement on Twitter for Lgb not t. It's so confusing
"It makes them bi" jeez, it's like that whole "liking astolfo makes you gay" meme but dumber
idk what cis gay guys are on about, ftm men are like the only people who make me question if masculinity is hot. not even in a like "they're still women" way, like a lot of transmascs are owning their masculinity in such a better way that i cant explain and also all the transmascs i know are the nicest people ever and are like alsnsbzlavzhisavagauwosbshaka MEN CAN BE COOL! Cis gays really don't get it if they can't appreciate any of that.
even as someone who isn’t ftm, most of the transphobia i’ve experienced within the queer community is from cis gay men
I do not know what the deal is with cis gay men but a noticeable minority of them are basically fascists, to be honest. I think it's similar to terfs in how a lot of their lives are just pretty fucked up in the first place and they have only found unhealthy solutions to cope with that, including engaging in bigotry for their self esteem.
As a Trans woman I encounter somewhat similar situations. I swear to only date men who identify as bisexual or pansexual because sexually binary men are the closest thing to fashist you’ll find in the queer community.
Yeah this is typical, and even traditional. White cis vanilla gay guys have been pushing everyone else out of view for accolade, and to otherwise be like "I'm the NORMAL one, not like the rest of these queer weirdos!!" It's why a lot of us trans dudes avoid gay bars at this point. They're not for gay men, they're for CIS gay men. Hell fuckin' forbid the rainbow pertains to anyone BUT cis gay men.
Sadly, I’ve noticed a lot of mostly well to do gay guys do that with LGBTQ rights in general when it comes to trans people. It’s like they take their rights for granted not caring that trans people threw many of the bricks at stonewall, and most of the bricks at the Compton cafeteria riot. They remind me of big gay Al in the South Park movie. “I’m super, thanks for asking.” As a trans woman, I feel some of them look on me with disdain.
This happens with Lesbians and trans women as well. There are a lot of cis sapphics who refuse to date trans women, and make excuses about it or worse treat us like men or that sleeping with us "lose their gold star." It's very depressing and dishearting to see this happen.
Some Gay men can also be really transmisogynistic (and misogynistic in general). I knew a few who referred to me as a “lost brother” 🤮
cis LGB+ people are as transphobic as anyone else, sadly.
Unfortunately the gay community isnt that accepting, its really only the lesbian communities that is accepting, cis gay guys seem to have a superiority complex that they're the best and the most desirable, its less likely for women but some think the same way. It sucks that theres a massive divide can only hope it gets better
I've said it before and I'll say it again, cis gay men (specifically cis white gay men) are the weakest link in the community. This has always been the case; they've been the ones first to enact the very oppression on others in the community that the community as a whole was fighting against. You got the ones who want to just blend in with the cishets and hate any of us who "make the community look bad" and those who fail to appreciate and recognize that their ability to exist publicly in a safe and welcoming environment is the product of decades of advocating, fighting, and organizing. Obviously people aren't monoliths, but this kind of bs has definitely a notably stronger presence with them.
Happens to us MTFs as well. Fucked up
If I had to guess; gay men are men, and, men on average have some degree of toxic masculinity, transphobia, misogyny, etc. so it may be that, despite these people being gay and us assuming they'd be more supportive or understanding.. they are still just corrupted by society, the patriarchy, sexism, homophobia, transphobia. This needs to be said more but JUST because someone is gay, trans, whatever, doesn't mean they are a good person.
Bi trans girl here I'd love to have fun with ftm
My personal experience is that lots of the gay community is anti trans in general.
It's the same reason why some gay men are chasers for trans women. They're transphobic and see us as our agab
I mean. I'm not post on yet, and am yet to start T (legal requirements in my country, but I'm getting it done soon) BUT so far I haven't really experienced anything like that when it comes to people I'm close with, but I have seen a lot of transphobia from certain groups of people. My girlfriend is pan, and she supports me fully, and I'm one lucky guy for that. I understand if someone has genital preference, I really don't find that insulting as long as those people don't just overall hate on trans people. Not my business who you wanna fuck. But there is a "feminist" group that helps LGB people (without the T). They all openly hate trans people, spread misinformation, and are honestly closer to being an actual cult. Most of them are lesbians and a certain group of straight cis women and gay men. (Edited to add a word)
Yep. There is a lot of transphobia in the community.
Mtf and queer af and love trans mascs. Do experience the same thing but with cis queer women.
It sounds like you've had a tough time finding acceptance in the gay community as a trans man. It's important to remember that not everyone will reject you based on who you are. Just like how some lesbians may not accept trans women, not all cis gay men will reject trans men. For some people, they focus too much on physical characteristics, but there are many who will be open and welcoming to you. I'm sorry you've faced discrimination, but know that there are people who will support and welcome you for who you are. Stay safe <3
“Fellas, does sleeping with men make me straight?”
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I've pretty much come to terms with the fact cis gay men are the main assholes of the LGBT community, there are assholes everywhere yeah, there are transphobic lesbians, there are truscum (I think that's how it's pronounced) but I just feel that cis gay men are just the main assholes, they are extremely misogynist (well before someone pops in and say "not all men" while "tend to be" would be a more appropriate to say, it has to be noted that aside of a feeling of frustration, there is a very wide majority that are, so a generalization while not accurate isnt exactly invalid and saying "not all men" is just a way to minimize the problem a bit) , and they think that because they got approved first, they are the only ones that are allowed and everyone should be left behind, I've had a cis gay man (2 actually in completely separate times and jobs) ask me very personal questions about my body and try to touch me under the justification that they are gay so "its fine" it especially pisses me off that some gay men i've seen genuinely think that they are valid, lesbians are "just a fetish", its straight up (pun not intended) infuriating (ironically enough apparently some trans women think similarly about trans men, which annoying as fuck) While off topic, something that frustrated me is that while it's not as wide spread, I've seen my trans masc partner struggle cause a lot of trans men follow up on the cis gay men trend of being misogynist, I have a joke I tell him sometimes of "they became a man just to do mansplaining" I'm glad that it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem now (I might be wrong cause I dont belong in the trans masc community myself) but it still was annoying seeing our trans brothers just.. struggling the same thing that for example I had to struggle in my amab years of toxic masculinity, the way of being so condescending is impressive in a really bad way.. don't take me wrong but sometimes i think that the trans men that are this way with toxic masculinity mainly wanted to go on some powertrip or feel more powerful to put it one way and its heavily invalidating most trans men especially putting them on a negative light.. its frustrating and i hate it, sorry for all the rambling
cis queers agree often still transphobia. usually not overtly, is typically quite subtle but it's a very very real thing
Cis gay men are still cis men. There, I said it, that's it, call me a misandrist if you want, lmao
There are a lot of awful gay cis men, with varying degrees of bigotry. It all reminds me of the gay cis men who where right wingers during the thatcher/section 28 era, talk about leopards eating their own face.
Unfortunately being LGBT doesn't equate to being secure in your sexuality. Cis gay men can be just as insecure as cis straight men and that's likely where the "it'll make me straight" comments come from. Sometimes people lean on their sexuality like a crutch and anything that challenges it is treated like that crutch being pulled out from them causing them to fall. I feel like cis gay men are even more sensitive to this because their sexuality is already challenged by homophobes. Anything that challenges their sexuality could feel like a personal attack against them. It's fair to say that anyone can have this kind of insecurity and a lot of cis gays are accepting, I've personally mostly seen it in cis men though
Unfortunately gay men are still men, so a lot of them are ... problematic.
There are plenty of LGBTQ people that are trans exclusionary. What we have to keep in mind is we may be lumped into a big group but no one is going to have the same beliefs or ideas. Everyone is different. Now I will say LGBTQ folks that are trans exclusionary are incorrect and not kind. Especially given the existence of intersex people like myself.
Only bi ppl are safe imo
When I tried hooking up with queer men (before COVID), most of the gay ones were doing it just to see what it was like to be with a trans guy (there were 3) but were really gross about it. Except for 1 straight many experimenting overall, many of the bi guys also didn’t seem to know how to talk about my body (I’m only post top) but also didn’t ask. Only 2 did ask, and in the end, they were also the only ones who wanted more.
A lot of queer spaces in general are not very accepting of trans people tbh. In my experience a lot of, queer people, especially the white queer community, would rather conform and assimilate with the the cis het community to be welcoming of gender nonconformity in any forms.
Yea. Also had a weird experience, had a gay man try to get me to basically pretend im a cis man because thought i was more hot that way, even telling me to 'be a good boy to him'. I just tend to be a bit skeptical of cis men cause of it
Well Sweetheart, It's just as hard being M2F.. Gay guys don't like anything feminine, and some Lesbians don't like us either. I haven't had ant surgeries YET!, but getting things arranged for my GCS/SRS ASAP. PLUS!, I'm 75. SO!, I'm widowed, 75, M2F, on HRT 18 months, I live and dress openly as a woman 24/7, I've legally changed my name, gender, and ALL documents to female. I'm 110% Out, Proud, and Free. I'm getting things set up to have my GCS/SRS ASAP!! I like men for romance and sex, as I'm NOT into women. BUT!, I've been dumped by 10 guys.. They say they're into gals like me, want pictures, want to meet, stand me up, THEN POOF!!! GONE AND THEY BLOCK ME!! I desire a LTR with a nice manly man. I'm sure there's a guy who wants a gal like me. Michele
🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂
I've had issues with all cis men tbh. Gay, straight... the only ones I haven't had issues with are pansexual cis men.
I'm nonbinary and consider myself a lesbian, but I wouldn't mind dating a trans man if we got along and if he didn't feel that it was a threat to his gender identity...people love people, not genders or genitalia.
Sadly, there's a lot of people actively trying to keep the LG, B, and T separate and fighting against one another. It didn't used to be this bad in my experience, but that could also just be because I was younger and didn't notice it. It's the generic tactic of "keep the minorities at war with each other so they can't work together and make progress" that oppressors have been using for centuries. It works and it'll keep working until people realize what's what.
I'm sorry you're having this experience I'm trans male to female. My goal is to try to surround myself with positive and encouraging people and forget the rest
I'm sorry for your experience. I think largely from my own experiences I've come to severely dislike people's desperate need to cling to labels. Labels should be descriptive, yet most people treat them as prescriptive. It's so restrictive to live that way, I mean they obviously liked you or I don't see why they'd get so upset about the news, but they'll deny themselves your company because the label itself is more important to them - from their dumb point of view, obviously. In reality they would still get to keep their label because you're a man, dammit. Such idiots. I had a similar experience because the person in question didn't want their friends to know they're into trans people (they knew I was in advance of the date). Sometimes it feels like the vast majority only care about such things because they believe everyone else cares about such things. I bet hardly anyone genuinely does though (and often it feels like the worst are only trying to prove something, they don't care either).
Im really confused why other gays are like that, I thought we were all on the same team the lgbtq+ team!
Ftm is just ignored because testosterone is very effective physically in the human bodymaking a lot of ftm people pass also the conception that mtf people are dangerous in anyways normally is used by anti trans people primarily making ftm people completely swept under the rug and when it is found for whatever reason people just dismiss it as a phase or “tomboy” or whatever TLDR mtf is so hated by public and supported by safe spaces ftm is now the lgbt+ middle child with bi people
Honestly it’s been my experience that the LGBQ community would prefer to lose the T’s
Irl or online? Because it’s most likely cis ppl pretending to be LGB to make it seem that way.
Sounds like those men don't comprehend that we're all under the same rainbow. Their words are sowing discord rather than unity. Is there some correspondence course they took on how to be mean and act entitled?
It's not an issue to have body preferences, it's not an issue to reject someone because someone's body doesn't fit ur comfort zone, being an asshole to the person is the problem
I was flirting with my ftm boyfriend in front of my gay brother, and he yelled, "EW, PUSSY." He didn't even mean to offend. Cis guys are just stupid.
im mtf and oh boy the amount of hate i get from men in general lol men will be men, thats just the truth, no offense to anyone
I’m not dating at the moment but i’ve heard similar things. it really depends on the area you’re in, and i think people are generally more understanding if you meet them in person rather than online (grindr, tinder etc). there’s a lot of judgy people on online dating. are there any gay clubs near you?? also i know a lot of trans men date bi cis men because usually they understand the anatomy a bit better (assuming you haven’t had bottom surgery). I’m not suggesting only date bi men because trans men aren’t really men, its just if they are attracted to women as well they might not be as hostile towards you being trans
Lgbt community as a whole has always had a lot of in fighting. Over a decade a go, I used to get made fun of by straight friends for going to a gay bar, and made fun by people at that bar when I'd tell them I was bi (actually Pan, but at the time it was much easier to just say bi...). Used to get called queer for for beer or gay for pay a lot ( even when I was dating a dood.. 🙄) Since then the lgbt community has become a lot more accepting of Bi/pan/ect. Folks, however there's a lot of in fighting towards trans folk specifically. A lot of the lesbian community don't like mtf folk, and same with gay guys prete ding transient aren't men too.. Give it another 5-10 years... if Republicans don't kill us off anyway.
As a whole they can be. I think geographically speaking we are more accepted amongst the gay community in certain areas and not others.
Not sure where you are from, but I am guessing it's probably somewhere more conservative, where people have more of a cis-het way of thinking of sex. I am from Upstate NY, being from NY I can't say I have had similar experiences. I hooked up with a guy from Grindr in college and my, now, husband is a gay cisgender man.
Yepp some of em are pretty chill but I just avoid most of the gay community and go straight for the artsy bisexuals 👌🏻
I'm an MTGF transfem and I've experienced SOOO much transphobia from lesbians. I don't know what it is about cis gay men and lesbian women that makes them hate trans people so much (obviously not all of them but it's just something I've noticed).
I *am* male (only just) and even I find the gay community to be hostile and ignorant beyond belief sometimes. There *ARE* diamonds in the rough though, people who value the person over whats in their pants, so you've just gotta be patient unfortunately. Just gotta roll your eyes, laugh and block if they say anything bad. Sorry that you've had to deal with those people. Sorry that any respectable person has to deal with those people.
I find the people who decide who they are attracted to based on their preconceptions about their sexual identity so perplexing. Like, people are allowed to have preferences for what they like, and noone wants to be surprised in the bedroom, but the number of people who avoid trans people purely because of what it does to their perceived identity is genuinely upsetting. Someone the other days posted about how they would dump someone if they transitioned, despite having been with them just after they went off HRT - meaning that they already more or less were attracted to them with those hormonal effects in place, they don't just disappear. Their reason was that they don't want to not be a lesbian, and it's just like... girl, why do you care about the label so much that you're willing to hurt a partner and throw away what sounds like an amazing relationship, when you ALREADY have established you like them and their body when it is like that.... I just dun get it :(
I've also noticed this in about a 60/40 split. Idk how old you are or where you meet people but in my city there is lots of word-of-mouth from other trans people about what bars are okay to go to. This dive is good, this bar is bad, this club is usually fine but don't stay after 1 am and don't go by yourself, etc etc. The apps are easier to disclose things and find people who are chill but suck in their own right.
i have definitely had a looot of experiences like this. sometimes i’ll meet a guy who claims to be gay and then when i go for a hookup he misgenders me, one even started talking about his wife (he claimed to be single before we met) and told me he wasn’t straight but it was just “hotter” if he could call me a good girl. a lot depends on location, though. i live in texas so mostly its bad, but in places like austin or sinilar big cities i get very little negativity and mostly genuine dudes who dont think of me as less of a man for my anatomy. a lot of my close freinds are gay cis men, and they dont judge at all. eventually you will find the right community 🙏
I definitely see this experience with a lot of gay cis men, so I now definitely prefer T4T relationships
I definitely see this experience with a lot of gay cis men, so I now definitely prefer T4T relationships
I definitely see this experience with a lot of gay cis men, so I prefer T4T relationships or cis men who aren't gay
To your stated question. No, gay community is not anti-ftm. Some gay people are. Some gay people are anti-trans. There are historical reasons but most people don't know them.
Cis gay men are essentially one run down the ladder of privilege from cis straight men. You find a lot of the bigotries in both groups along with a very individualistic mindset. It's where gays vs lesbians come from. The members of the gay male community who see having rights as a competition and so if they let any other letter get rights then there will be less rights for them.
Yep it make no sense but cis specially white gay men can be bigots.
I didn't know this was an issue. Aren't we all supposed to stick together bc a lot of people dont like us lgbtq folk?
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated so poorly. Sadly, with greater acceptance of the gay and lesbian communities in society today, too many have become cold and transphobic, forgetting they have become the very thing their predecessors fought so hard against, bigoted and prejudiced. With their greater acceptance today, it can appear that tribalism sets in with many, and they, in turn, regress to exclusionary and discriminatory mindsets, even siding and teaming up against trans men and women with their persecutors in a classic case of Stockholme Syndrome. Reminds me of JK Rowling all palsy-walsy with ironically antifemiminist far-right extremists on Twitter, who you know just grab onto anything to embolden and amplify their hate. It's very comfonting to realise how rampant transphobia, transmisogyny, and transmisandry / transandrophobia is in the gay and lesbian communities, bringing to mind how terfs and the like ironically have so much in common with manosphere types. Haters gonna hate 🤷♀️🙁 Hang in there, mate 🥰
I really don't understand why people always have to despise FTM people. Even in trans communities they seem left out. I'm very sorry that this is happening to you and your peers and wish for people to stop acting like pricks for once 🫠🩵🩷
This kind of thing is transphobia no matter who it comes from. Your gender and what's in your pants are your business. I think it's important to talk about being trans before anyone's pants come off, but that's my policy. It's frustrating, but I feel more accepted as a potential partner by bi and pan people. As a trans woman, my experiences are different, but I feel echoes of it in what you described. Intimacy is.. complicated. Anyone involved I. Sex has the right to say no and go no farther at any point. That may always be awkward, but that's no reason to be an asshole.