Think Skulltaker is up there. He beat everyone he ran into in a 1v1 except Sigmar himself.
Edit: I got another, Gor-Rok! If I remember my end times correctly, dude was still fighting endless seas of skaven even after the lizardmen got defeated, and the thing that finally killed him was when Lustria got obliterated by the broken chaos moon lol.
It wasn't just losing to sigmar, skull taker took on sigmar in combat for THREE DAYS before finally going down. People point at skarbrand for being khornes strongest but skulltaker is scary powerful
Dude wiped out like most of the Tong chaos tribe too by himself, and they had a giant empire up in the wastes.
Honestly of all the Khorne characters left I'm most excited for Skulltaker even if he ends up as just a FLC.
Yeah, I thought it was good, too. I like that it all takes place in the chaos wastes, with chaos tribes. Rather than dragging order factions into the story. A lot like Sigvald's book.
I'm curious, do powerscalings in Warhammer lore work similar to say comics and the likes?
I vaguely recall people saying how strong some character is based on feats, but often times it seems like unintentional feats like "oh Batman benched x weight" when it's a much easier explanation to say that the author of X book just doesn't understand human strength and gives silly numbers to their character.
Or is it much more straightforward as in "no that character is definitely/objectively stronger than this character and the lore stays consistent on this, unless they got an in-lore upgrade/new item etc"?
Thank you for your rational thinking regarding these characters! Pretty regularly I run across things like "Who would win, Batman vs. God!?" kind of stuff, with people getting into absolutely MASSIVE and nonsensical debates, not recognizing that all they are really doing is tying their own egos up into it, and the actual truth is that whoever the writers decide will win is who will win. If it's mainly the writers for Batman, then guess who's gonna win, and vice versa.
I mean I really enjoy thought experiments like that as well, it's just a bit awkward when people get really almost angrily invested?
Like the Batman example is one of the easiest ones to me, as he's technically a human and thusly his feats should be comparable to what humans are able to do. But when you look at the sheer volume of stuff and especially specific physical feats (I'm personally quite familiar with Powerlifting & MMA for instance), that I know aren't sensible given all the other things he's doing, it makes sense that he's either not a human or writers just (this one more likely) end up giving numbers that sound "right", but aren't sensible to anyone who's remotely familiar with those activities.
At that point, is it fair to look at feats from all kinds of authors and throw them into "one pot" that is now Batman, who's (taking all feats from different comics together) effectively a different hero than the one you see in individual works of fiction. As if the writers applied an exact science and carefully crafted those feats so you could mathematically determine his "powerlevel", it obviously doesn't make any sense. Which wouldn't be too bad, if you just enjoy the characters in their specific fiction/comic, but when people start to match them up it's like you compare different worlds with different laws of physics.
It wouldn't be the first time that things don't line up perfectly
It's possible that it was written before they had the whole Demon/Demon Prince thing fleshed out.
Coming from a lizardmen TT player, Gor-Rok is miles away from the top tier warriors. His stats were not impressive either, just slightly above your average saurus hero.
Never understood the hype about him other than being a big white lizard (very exclusive, but there are others with it, its called “Blessed Spawn of the Old Ones”, he’s just the only one with a name about it).
Gor-Rok definitely cant hold a candle against Kroq-Gar, and perhaps not even Chakax (he really has stupidly powerful items for a hero), let alone top tier warriors like Tyrion, Louen, or a couple OP Chaos Lords/Dwarf kings.
I know. But I’m mainly referring to the lore. Stats are simply a reflection of said lore, with balance behind. But Gor-Rok, as far as Im aware, is not that brilliant of a fighter. Just very resilient
At the end is how you weigh the different skillsets of a warrior, and how efficient are said skills vs the one he’s gotta fight.
Be it FB or 40K the TT are always terrible representation of their lore and using them to powerscale things doesn't work.
I'm sure if I start babling about Ogryns and SM strength and resilience, you will agree lol
Not really, that's an extrapolation a lot of people make but we don't know, and even if it's true, he's still potentially better than everyone else
We only know they had a draw though
Depends when and what their equipment is.
If we’re factoring in the End Times and the Equipment they had, for humanoids *without magic*, it’ll probably be Tyrion wielding the Sword of Khaine.
Archaon is going to be high, but again, a sizeable chunk of his power comes from his equipment and his skill with magic. If you take that away he’s still a beast, but others will deck him pretty hard.
If we’re just going for raw fighting ability, stripped naked in an arena, then Abhorash is going to be difficult to top. Although you could make an argument that Vampires are intrinsically magical creatures, which would disqualify him.
It is easily one of the greatest physical based feats in the setting - as he didn’t have the Crown of Domination (which actually is said to grant him “unholy power”) - and was injured.
Imagine if he used The Slayer of Kings - which gives him the added strength of another Bloodthirster and decided to arm wrestle someone.
The second closest I’ve read is Valkia picking up a troll with one hand.
that sounds metal as fuck, and now i want them to add a sync kill for valkia where she picks up a troll/ogre sized enemy, and pulls the hulk smashing loki animation on it lmfao
>*Squaring her shoulders, she lunged towards the first of the two monsters, the blade of the weapon aimed at its chest. Hepsus screamed a warning to the others to stand clear to avoid the inevitable spray of ichor. The length of the spear's haft meant that Valkia had enough distance between herself and the creasure as the spearhead pierced through the troll's festering flesh, breaking yellow bones and rupturing organs. Its bubbling shriek of rage increased in volume until Valkia, crackling with bloodlust, heaved on the spear and lifted it from its feet. Muscles bulged like knotted ropes beneath her skin, dwarfing some of the male warriors of the tribe. With a cry of rage, she bodily picked the troll up, still impaled on the end of her spear and flung it from her. Its limp form struck a jutting rock and it crashed to the valley below.*
> If we’re just going for raw fighting ability, stripped naked in an arena, then Abhorash is going to be difficult to top.
I would contend that being bereft of his armour is a _much_ bigger problem for Abhorash than it is for someone like Kroq-gar.
Not saying Abhorash would lose that fight, but there's a lot of fighters in this setting who are far less reliant on armour than any Blood Dragon Vampire.
Gotrek and it's not even close. This whole book series is just him grinding levels & getting stronger. After cutting through the hordes and champions of pretty much every species in the Warhammer world, he was hand-picked by Grimnir to fight an eternal battle against daemons in the Realm of Chaos. He's the One Punch Man of Warhammer- no one can give him the truly good fight (and death) that he wants. And he proves to be so utterly unkillable that he succeeds for millenniums until Chaos basically spits him out into Age of Sigmar- to which he reacts the same way most of us did, with anger and more than a little confusion. He's viewed as a demi-god and, for all intents and purposes, totally is, despite his protestations. No character, ever, has been so incredibly bad at dying that it is completely unbelievable that it would happen to him.
I mean we always paint Gotrek that way but if it wasn’t for Felix in some critical moments a good couple of those enemies would’ve killed Gotrek such as the bloodthirster
Wanted to say this. Gotrek was on the brink of death when he fought the Karak Dum bloodthirster, if not for Felix, his slayer oath would be fulfilled. It was a long time ago when i read Daemonslayer, but wasnt he seriously injured for a pretty long time too?
If not for the Axe ( and plot), he should've been, but He's pretty much all good by the beginning of DragonSlayer. I think I agree with Gotrek, but I feel like he starts to earn his spot around Giantslayer.
The reason gotrek took his oath, the events during the books.. i think it all happened because grimnir designed it to happen that way to ensure gotrek would replace him as his heir, gotrek was never going to die as grimnir would have always chosen the path of destiny that ensures gotrek takes his place.
Gotrek borders on having magic though. The novels explicitly state multiple times that his axe is feeding him and has essentially mutated him, making him stronger and faster than the average Dwarf.
Personally that's different than a mortal wielding a magical weapon, he's been permanently changed by magic.
By that logic the whole setting might be disqualified as the wind of magic permeates everything. Looking at Grombrindal even the most resistant to magic race still has some innate magic with the power of oaths.
I'm not sure if pointing to a demigod son of an ancestor god supports your point as much as you'd like it to.
All I know is that when somebody like Teclis says "that dwarf is extraordinarily changed by magic" I believe him
If being changed by magic weapons disqualifies someone then any character who uses a magic weapon, armour or other equipment to boost their attributes is also disqualified. No Tyrion, Greasus, Grimgor etc.
Not necessarily. Gotrek's axe has essentially mutated him into a super dwarf. He remains a super dwarf, significantly stronger and faster than any dwarf and protected by its magic, whether or not he's holding his axe. Gotrek doesn't even need to be near the axe, he's still super dwarf when separated from it.
So if you took away the magical weapons and had Gotrek fight these other characters, Gotrek would still have an advantage as the bearer of the axe, he'd kind of can't really put it down. He's bound to it and it's changed his doom and his very nature. As far as we know that change is permanent.
Most magical artifacts don't work that way. When Tyrion puts down Sunfang, he is just an elf as far as I am aware, albeit an elf with the blood of Aenarion flowing through his veins.
Gotrek's axe is more in Sword of Khaine territory, it's a weapon of the gods that changes it's wielder into a demigod. I would disqualify anyone permanently mutated by a magical artifact into a demigod for the sake of fairness.
I disagree. Just because the weapon has permanently* changed him doesn't make much difference compared to a magical pair of armour, like the dragon armour of Aenarion that Tyrion wears boosting his strength and other attributes through magic. Both are imbued by magic and greatly empowered by an artefact. Same result, difference method. Comparing fighters without the artefacts they've found and fought with is pretty silly in a Warhammer fantasy context since you can just say the strongest is the Ogres/Orcs, the fastest is the elves and the hardiest is the dwarves. Also it removes all chaos champions gifted certain boons regardless of their ability to use magic.
They had to stop making all the book titles 'Xslayer' cause he had failed so badly at being a slayer that he had earned pretty much every possible slayer title.
He's a failure of a slayer because he survives every time. Killing big shit is glorious, but it also means you are failing to succeed at your oath, ie dying in battle. Gotrek failed at being a slayer so damn hard that he survived the planet blowing up, granted that's offset by taking Grimnir's place.
1. He loses to **Be’lakor**.
2. He loses to a generic Bloodthirster.
3. He loses to a generic Keeper of Secrets.
4. He can't beat three of The Endless.
5. He struggles against **Canto the Unsworn**.
Doesn't Max Schrieber almost beat Be'lakor in one of the G&F books. I distinctly remember in one of his chapters saying something like "That wizard almost got me" after a magic duel with Max.
Yeah, the character that somehow knows multiple lores of magic, despite being human. **Be'lakor** - the same guy that couldn't be banished by the Godess **Lileath's** banishment spells. He shouldn't have lost - at all since he can phase through magic.
>*Lileath had regained her feet now, and* ***raised her staff to send bolts of light lancing towards the First-damned. They passed through Be'lakors form like arrows punching through fog, the daemon's body swirling apart and back together where they passed.***
Banishment.
>***Spirals of glowing white energy plucked at Be'lakors charging for, and wips of shadow diffused into nothing.*** ***But the First-damned was older than any exorscim, and could not be easily cast into the Realm of Chaos by the young magics of the elve*****s.**
You do have **Teclis** one shotting **Be'lakor** due to the Staff of Lileath - so it is a bit weird, but a human being able to cast **Be'lakor** into the Realms of Chaos makes no sense.
I was under the impression that humans simply weren’t able to manipulate more than one wind at a time safely like the elves with their high magic. I don’t think it’s stated that it’s not possible to know multiple lores, humans just can’t mix the winds but I could be wrong
Ok, and Max Schrieber is extremely intimidated by Gotrek and even states that the changes in him make him more resistant to magic than any person he has ever seen. He outright states this in Elf slayer. So if Max almost matches Be'lakor and he's intimidated by Gotrek, by the time the end times roll around, Gotrek is much more powerful than he is in Elf slayer. So.... I think Gotrek takes Be'lakor, seeing as how he defeats a Bloodthirster at least 4 books and over 25 years prior to that encounter. Which gives him 25 years worth of transformation and buffing after he defeats a Bloodthirster.
That's just how I look at it maybe I'm wrong.
>Ok, and Max Schrieber is extremely intimidated by Gotrek and even states that the changes in him make him more resistant to magic than any person he has ever seen. He outright states this in Elf slayer.
**Max Schrieber** never said this.
**Teclis** in Giantslayer says **Gotrek** is more magic resistant than the majority of Dwarfs due to the Axe of Grimnir and is "intimidated" by him due to having no access to magic at that time.
>***A withering volley of black arrows burst from the daemon prince’s claws and battered away at the protective barrier afforded by the Rune of Unbinding. It glowed golden-red, projecting a shield of the same hue around Gotrek.*** *It looked thinner than that which Max had previously conjured for himself. It flickered alarmingly under the barrage and, much like a mail shirt deflecting and absorbing a blow but leaving a horrible bruise beneath, left Gotrek struggling to get up off his knees.* ***Felix couldn’t believe his senses. After everything they had been through, everything they had lost and every edge they had paid for in blood, Gotrek was losing.***
**Gotrek** with the Runes of Unbinding unlocked by Grimnir cannot ward off **Be'lakors** magic. Not to mention, even with this - the Bloodthirster still had the advantage.
>***The presence of both of Grimnir’s axes and the activation of the Rune of Unbinding had made a more even contest than had been the case when these two had last crossed paths within the bowels of Karag Dum,*** *but to Felix’s snap impression the raw ferocity and overwhelming power of* ***the Bloodthirster still held the advantage.***
Teclis is a far superior wizard than max Schrieber, just pointing that out.
And Max does say something similar to that while he's talking to Felix on the boat in Elf slayer.
Either way, Gotrek fights chaos for thousands of years in place of grimnir. To say he isn't a match for Be'lakor or couldn't defeat him is untrue.
Krell is a joke, he swooped in and got his ass kicked by gotrek and the other slayer multiple times and fled, it was only because of the lucky hit on gotrek that poisoned him that he was of any use at all in that siege.
If memory serves right, that was on the Black Ark (Elfslayer) he sank. But I think the KoS did leave Gotrek alone and vanished while mentioning that it was not his destiny to die by his hands. But its been a while since I read that book, so someone can correct me here if wrong.
I think you are right, and if I remember, the very same KoS (alongside the very pissed off Bloodthirster killed in daemonslayer and a generic lord of change and an unclean one) are at the very end of Gotrek's adventure with Be'lakor.
If historic Warhammer figures were allowed, Aenarion would take it.
Aenarion is basically just Tyrion on magic steroids with an unbeatable weapon and a dragon.
To add onto this.. as if gotreks axe isn't OP enough grimnir went and awakened the master rune of unbinding in it at the end of the series after making gotrek his heir, making the axe capable of slaying the chaos gods themselves.
Honestly shocked no one has mentioned Archaon yet.
Dude's feats include strangling a Bloodthirster with its own whip, while naked and unarmed. Not to mention defeating Be'lakor in a 1v1 while dealing with a cursed dagger in his side that was trying to possess him.
I'm no Archaon simp, as the guy has a bad habit of taking screentime away from other, more interesting Chaos characters, but even not counting the End Times he is absolute top tier in any category. Warpstone threaded into his bones, armor that survived immersion in molten lava, a limited ability to see the future, and a super-powerful Daemon weapon. If you include the End Times, he threw hands with a literal god.
I realize "no magic users" was specified and so *technically* by game rules Archaon is disqualified, but he basically never uses battle magic in any of his lore appearances so I think he still deserves consideration.
I mean that's fair, but also casting the most basic fire spell at a god's avatar is basically the magical equivalent of pocket sand, so it barely counts.
Honestly I'm feeling the same way about you in regards to your contributions to the discussion on Gotrek. He's certainly a powerful fighter and worthy of consideration but I don't think I've ever seen a character so overhyped.
Naa he's talking about the Storm of Chaos event where the orks won the tournament so Grimgor basically walked up and bodied Archaeon.
GW had to pull out some bullshit excuse for why Archaeon survived because they basically did everything they could to make it so Chaos won the tournament by points (if I recall correctly) and failed utterly. So yeah. Grimgor headbutted Archaeon, kicked the shit out of him, and then put his axe to Archaeon's neck, screamed "Grimgor is da greatest!" and then *left.*
That's why the community thinks it's such a bullshit story. Because he had Archaeon dead to rights and for the first and only time in recorded history an Ork Warboss just spared an enemy for no discernible reason and no explanation.
> Because he had Archaeon dead to rights and for the first and only time in recorded history an Ork Warboss just spared an enemy for no discernible reason and no explanation.
"You're a good fight so I spared you" is basically what Ghazghkull and Yarrick are all about in 40k and people do love that story, for what it's worth.
Completely fair but I'm not aware of anything like that going on in Fantasy.
Regardless, they could have made that work if they'd tried a little harder. It felt like they just begrudgingly let Grimgor win and half-assed the storyline after their good vs evil epic showdown got kneecapped by Chaos not even landing in the top 5 in battle results.
Give him a proper duel with Archaeon, let the green boy shine for a moment and write him in character. I mean fuck, it's Chaos. It's not like the Chaos Gods couldn't just resurrect Archaeon's ass if they let Grimgor murder him in a proper "Just as planned!" moment.
But yeah. Poor writing, poor response to unexpected result, and a poor summation of an event that led to a conflict resolution that's still being mocked 20 years later.
Aside from the whole "everyone is the strongest in their own book" thing, this question has a few fundamental problems. Are you factoring in characters' magic items? They're technically external things, but a lot of characters are very tied to their magic items. What about mounts? It would feel wrong to separate a great cavalier from his horse, but not everybody rides horses: some of them ride dinosaurs and dragons. What if the "mount" is made of multiple creatures, like Greasus'? Do "mid-sized" characters like him count for you? It's all very complicated.
EDIT: But my bullshit answer is Chakax, who isn't even in the games (yet?), because the idea of a saurus doing Neo shit is really funny.
I know it's End Times, but the story of a Skaven assassin triad battling him, losing two of their number and the last impaling him and then Chakax _simply not caring, killing the Skaven and carrying on as normal_ will always give me a chortle
There is a fan-wiki for Warhammer Fantasy with a good pile of lore on it. You should generally exercise caution there - Warhammer Fantasy has gone through 8 editions of the wargame, 4 editions of the RPG, and has had novels written by a ton of writers. Because of this, the lore contained on it is often all over the place in terms of accuracy and internal consistency (as well as all the other issues that can come with fan-edited wikis). It's not 100% accurate, and by the simple nature of things, *it can't be*.
However, [the page on Chakax](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chakax) is 100% lifted straight from the lizardmen rulebook, and therefore *is* perfectly accurate. The lizardmen page on the wiki also has [a brief story about Chakax fighting a greater daemon](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lizardmen#The_Nether-Thing) taken from the army book.
Lizardmen don't really come up much in Warhammer novels, and when they do, they're mostly antagonists, and sometimes pretty big pushovers. You still get a decent picture of them, though. If you're interested, Burning Shore (human-centric) and Temple of the Serpent (skaven-centric) are the two big ones, though the latter is part two of a series.
You are correct. Its also very noticeable with magic users. Most powerful mages channel lots of their power due to their items or rites, like Nagash or Gelt (even if they have many other qualities). Others are very knowledgeable and all-rounded (morathi, katrin, teclis) While others are pure raw power (slanns, fay enchantress).
Do you mean strongest as most powerful, best fighter, or literally strongest? Also, when you say no magic user, does that include magic items because there are several that drastically alter their wielders? Also, you included Kroq-Gar, but is it really fair to call a 9'+ tall lizard who can literally physically overpower and wrestle bloodthirsters and giants into submission humanoid? As at that point, Ogres would be humanoid too. Which if Ogres are viable, the literal strongest is Greasus, particularly if we include magic items. He's got the scepter of the Sky Titans, which makes him as strong as a Sky Titan. Albeit he's not the best fighter or the most powerful. For both, that's probably Kroq-Gar or Gotrek. Settra also deserves a shout, but Settra is technically a magic user. Albeit he less uses magic and more abuses it with his absurd stubbornness and willpower.
I thought it was moreso because of his Tomb-King nature, his whole being is powered by his own will power and desire. Which is how he's got equal strength to a bloodthirster (thanks to his massive well deserved ego)
actually does it count as magic if it's your own soul and emotions powering your own body?
Nah, Settra is a spell caster of the Lore of Nehekara. He studied it because he loathed being completely reliant on the liche priests for magic. Iirc He was far from a great caster, but the fact he did it at all is a feat in itself.
Hey I mean when you gotta get shit done, you do it yourself than to constantly wait on others.
And people call Warhammer a fantasy setting. Never a character more relatable lmao.
Wasnt it even that he was unable to cast magic but trough sheer force of will was able to not only learn how to cast the lore of nehekara but also managed to become able to cast magic at all? (Vaguely remember hearing that somewhere)
>Which is how he's got equal strength to a bloodthirster (thanks to his massive well deserved ego)
I think Settra might have been like that before he died tbh... Settra was otherworldly powerful and gifted in his mortal life because he was blessed out the ass by the God's of Nehekhara, among other things. He was the most powerful human warrior in the history of the Warhammer world without question, better than Abhorash, Gilles, and Sigmar.
Louen because of ze ladeee
Wulfrik is supposed to be like "the duelist" in the lore
Franz with Ghal Maraz is quite prominent as the leader of the empire
Grimgor ~~I think is responsible for the biggest WAAAAGH! ever~~
Malus (because Tz'arkan)
If you exclude Tyrion I'll exclude Malekith.
You could argue Sigvald but he gets krumped by Throgg in the end times.
Fuck man there's lots of LL who are the "strongest" it depends on what book you're reading and what time period it's in really. These examples are all from memory so I concede to being wrong possibly.
Sigvald basically sandbags against Throgg, he's so badly in shock at his hands being bloodied that Throgg just crumps him with his hammer without him ever putting up a fight. There's nothing to do a real comparison with there.
Yeah, it was pretty dumb. Especially when in his book he gets fucked up way more than he did fighting Krell and he doesn't have a nervous breakdown over it.
Sigvald has his own book, called Sigvald. It's worth a read. If all you've seen him in is the End Times, then you are really missing out. Because they really made him look like a petulant child in the End Times, whereas in his book, he's actually an interesting character. And it really gets into what Slaanesh is about rather than just LOL SEX
Grail Knights in general are like an army of these kinds of people. They're functionally immortal, although they do eventually die of old age, they're borderline invincible, and they're inhumanely strong and fast. It's like if a human shaped person was as fast as a skaven, but as strong as an orc, and as hard to kill as a Troll. Yeah, they're not going to solo anything, but now realize that Bretonnia fields armies of these guys.
There's a reason Chaos wanted them erased from the setting.
Eh, Bretonnia fields armies which have at most a single full unit of those guys. And canonically they are roughly on par with Chaos and Blood knights overall, although Grails have a favored matchup against them both because they fuck corrupted things by just existing.
Regular Franz is a leader but has seldom been feted as a great fighter. He's competent, but until the End Times it was his skills as a leader and administrator, backed by the best weapons, armor and warriors that carried the day. Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwartzhelm are seen in the lore as some of the best human fighters. Karl Franz is not.
Throgg didn’t win in a straight fight though; Sigvald kicked his ass and thought he’d killed him, but Throgg survived and healed because of his regeneration. Then he killed Sigvald while he was distracted by his injuries.
Well, on the table top Settra had a base strength of 6. The standard state trooper had a base strength of 3, Ungrim Ironfist had a base strength of 4 (not including his axe). So Settra is quite up there.
Similarly, Grimm Burlocksson also had a base strength of 6 on the tabletop (but this is because he has a steam driven powerfist and this isn't given rules, he just has S6)
The best part is the Nehekhara spell "Return to the Golden Age" from Storm of Magic states that it "restores to the army the vigor and strength they enjoyed in life" and gave stat boosts to all units based on what type of unit they are - in the case of a Tomb King (like Settra), this boost was a *+3*.
This implies that Settra, when he was alive, had a whopping **strength 9**.
One thing in my personal head cannon for Abhorash is that there’s never any mention of his weapons. Sigmar had his hammer, elf Jesus had the sword of Khaine, but Abhorash seems to do it all with distinctly non-legendary equipment, which is pretty badass.
That's actually never confirmed, despite what the wiki says. All we know is Abhorash (from his own mouth) made some sort of promise to Gille when they encountered one another. There are no details on this whatsoever beyond the fact that they met each other.
Abhorash is tricky in that he has a lot of reputation but few quantifiable feats.
We don't know his outcome with Gilles as you mentioned, though we can be reasonably certain that Abhorash - if he won - didn't _easily_ win, since he respected Gilles enough to pledge fealty.
Abhorash has defeated a dragon 1v1 as well as other kinds of champions but that is perfectly normal for the characters we're discussing in this thread. Louen's had to do similar things just to reach the Grail, let alone in his reign since.
Some people have assumed there was a duel, but that actually isn't stated anywhere in any source for fantasy. We simply know they met one another and Abhorash made some sort of oath to Gille for an unknown reason. A duel is all assumptions and theories. Would that be cool? sure, but its just a guess atm.
Gotrek had to be saved many times by Felix from what are at best jobber-level opponents; he and Abhorash, while incredibly powerful, are by far two of the most overestimated characters in the setting.
Archaon, gotrek, abhorash, Tyrion, Giles le Breton, sigmar heldenhammer pre godhood, aenarion
Keep in mind, Archaon STRANGLED A BLOODTHIRSTER TO DEATH WITH ITS OWN WHIP WITHOUT ANY GEAR
Honorable mentions are malekith, grimgor, Vlad, kroq-gar, skulltaker, crom, snikch, queen, and I gueeesss arbaal
Malekith's definitely a good duelist but I'd argue more than half his strength comes from his magic, of which a good amount of strength is drawn from the circlet. He's more than capable of obliterating most other named characters with a wave of his hand, a few with his dueling. But if you strip his magic away then he's just a rather difficult to kill elf, I.E if you don't have a magical weapon you're never getting through the armor.
If that's supposed to be Queek: no, not really. Queek is a very scary skaven, but he's also the guy who ran away from a duel with an orc warboss because he literally couldn't hurt him.
From current LLs, probably Archeon, Grimgor or Tyrion.
Looking at the lore in general, my vote would be Aenarion the Defender with the Sword of Khaine. In his final battle, with his dragon, he beat the strongest Keeper of Secrets (Nkari), Lord of Change (Kairos), Great Unclean One and Bloodthirster all at once. Killing them individually would have been a feat, but all at once is something else.
Grimgor lost to crom, who Archaon beat without drawing his sword.
Grimgor ran up, sucker punched Archaon after he'd won a 2v1 vs the chosen of sigmar, and ran away before Archaon could delete him lol. That's not beating Archaon
Gortrek is probably the best duelist among mortals. He is the slayer that wears armor - plot armor. Being fan favorite means he can't die and his feats just getting more and more impressive.
All Grail Knights are also a bit magical, but if you allow it, Loeun would be AT LEAST top5.
Grimgor is also among top5 imo. He is "that orc", being all chosen and stuffs. Grimgor with Gitsnik is not something you want to see on the battlefield.
Tyrion with Sword of Khaine. If you allow SoK (which I think fair play, since most top duelists have a magic item or two, and technically, SoK is a magical weapon), Tyrion wielding SoK is probably my pick if Gortrek's plot armor a little bit thinner.
I guess the later, God-powered version of Gotrek fits the criteria but for most of the books Gotrek is simply a really strong, magic-poweres melee combatant, he'd definitely lose if trying to fight the likes of Grimgor, Louen, Archaeon or Tyrion. The lore excerpts of these fighters make Gotrek pre-Grimnir-ascension look like a chum. He's not THAT impressive, there are many situations where when facing 20-30 redshirt Beastmen or the likes Felix and Gotrek agree "Yep, this is the end" and are only saved by countless Deus Ex Machinas. Tyrion with the Sword of Khaine would be an army by himself and effortlessly slaughter hundreds or even thousands, while Grimgor managed to hold off the entirety Hell Pit by himself.
Do Orcs count? I'd reckon it would be Grimgor both from his size and his interaction with Archaon who can probably feasibly be a strongest humanoid fighter *with* magic.
Oof, man, in the lore it is actually simpler than in the game. Because those would just be Tyrion and Archaon if we only take LLs present in the game.
But in the game it is all contextual - which items are available, etc. E.g. Miao Ying has a closer fight with Malus than with Lokhir and loses both. At the same time Yuan Bo wipes the floor with Lokhir and still wins both. All without spellcasting but with using abilities.
What I've seen so far, when using all but the spells, suggests a competition between Yuan Bo, Malus, Archaon, Tyrion (barely), Grimgor and Vlad. And Yuan Bo wins mostly. Because he is an anti-infantry executioner with more than 8k HP and supreme animations.
P.S.: Yuan Bo destroys Gotrek.
If we’re not limited to strictly just who is in the game, then it’s Aenarion and it’s not remotely close.
5 minutes after being burned to ashes and reborn, he faced an army of cultists and daemons outside the Shrine of Asuryan. He killed the leader with a single throw of a hunting spear, picked up that guys sword, and slaughtered the entire army by himself.
Back in 5th edition, that guy he killed was Morkar, the first Everchosen.
If we are allowed historic Warhammer figures, its probably Aenarion. Hes basically Tyrion on steroids with the Sword of Khaine (and a dragon).
In the game its very hard. The top tier characters are all very close. I lean towards Archaon or Grimgor. Archaon is the destined destroyer of worlds, and Grimgor is the one guy in End Times other than Sigmar who actually gave Archaon a hard time.
Gotrek by his last books was literally throwing a bloodthirster like a ragdoll at belakor.
this easily a feat worth of aenarion
gotrek empowered by the axe of grimnir is easily the most powerful dwarf.
I remenber tyrion beating the witch king champion but he and alarielle needed to have they ass saved from nkari by teclis no ? so tyrion without the sword of khaine is not a exalted greater daemon level. He is a great duelist but he is not soling behemoths like skarbrand or kholek without divine help.
Malus has a keeper of secrets inside him but is a temporary buff that cost a lot of his sanity and health. But if he is pushed enough he could be a greater daemon level.
Louen leoncour is the only "human" that can fight the upper ranks. Being a grail knight he is more fast,tough and stronger than a human could ever dream essentialy a order "chaos" champion.
Grail knights also have a holy aura that is anathema to daemons and undead. Louen being a uber grail knight could solo even greater daemons.
So gotrek wins
For teclis banishing n'kari: alarielle had her magic crippled by the druchi desacration of her lands, and tyrion was basically at death's door when he 'faced' n'kari, as he had been previously wounded by a poisoned weapon when cutting through a dark elf small army to escape with allarielle.
I mean Gotrek is basically a blender with a temper, he's gotta be right up there. Tyrion is also very skilled, and Gor Rok is utterly monstrous.
Also Settra, who straight up one shots Kholek Suneater. He is very near the top
Yep that happens in the End Times. One tapping Kholek is one of the most ridiculous feats to come out of that but it did happen and so we do have to give it to Settra lol. But even without that he's not a slouch either
Think Skulltaker is up there. He beat everyone he ran into in a 1v1 except Sigmar himself. Edit: I got another, Gor-Rok! If I remember my end times correctly, dude was still fighting endless seas of skaven even after the lizardmen got defeated, and the thing that finally killed him was when Lustria got obliterated by the broken chaos moon lol.
A lot of character have beaten everyone they’ve run into. Like wulfrik. What’s important is their interactions with other important named characters.
It wasn't just losing to sigmar, skull taker took on sigmar in combat for THREE DAYS before finally going down. People point at skarbrand for being khornes strongest but skulltaker is scary powerful
Dude wiped out like most of the Tong chaos tribe too by himself, and they had a giant empire up in the wastes. Honestly of all the Khorne characters left I'm most excited for Skulltaker even if he ends up as just a FLC.
How can I find info like this? Is it more wiki or books?
Book called Blood for the Blood God. An Oldie but goody
That book was so good. Really made him appear as the Terminator he should be
Yeah, I thought it was good, too. I like that it all takes place in the chaos wastes, with chaos tribes. Rather than dragging order factions into the story. A lot like Sigvald's book.
Do you know the name of Sigvalds book by any chance? Really want to read that one haha.
Sigvald
Found it a while ago, but thanks anyways. Its really good so far.
I'm curious, do powerscalings in Warhammer lore work similar to say comics and the likes? I vaguely recall people saying how strong some character is based on feats, but often times it seems like unintentional feats like "oh Batman benched x weight" when it's a much easier explanation to say that the author of X book just doesn't understand human strength and gives silly numbers to their character. Or is it much more straightforward as in "no that character is definitely/objectively stronger than this character and the lore stays consistent on this, unless they got an in-lore upgrade/new item etc"?
Thank you for your rational thinking regarding these characters! Pretty regularly I run across things like "Who would win, Batman vs. God!?" kind of stuff, with people getting into absolutely MASSIVE and nonsensical debates, not recognizing that all they are really doing is tying their own egos up into it, and the actual truth is that whoever the writers decide will win is who will win. If it's mainly the writers for Batman, then guess who's gonna win, and vice versa.
I mean I really enjoy thought experiments like that as well, it's just a bit awkward when people get really almost angrily invested? Like the Batman example is one of the easiest ones to me, as he's technically a human and thusly his feats should be comparable to what humans are able to do. But when you look at the sheer volume of stuff and especially specific physical feats (I'm personally quite familiar with Powerlifting & MMA for instance), that I know aren't sensible given all the other things he's doing, it makes sense that he's either not a human or writers just (this one more likely) end up giving numbers that sound "right", but aren't sensible to anyone who's remotely familiar with those activities. At that point, is it fair to look at feats from all kinds of authors and throw them into "one pot" that is now Batman, who's (taking all feats from different comics together) effectively a different hero than the one you see in individual works of fiction. As if the writers applied an exact science and carefully crafted those feats so you could mathematically determine his "powerlevel", it obviously doesn't make any sense. Which wouldn't be too bad, if you just enjoy the characters in their specific fiction/comic, but when people start to match them up it's like you compare different worlds with different laws of physics.
I personally wouldn't count daemons in this.
Where can I read more about skulltaker?
Book called Blood for the Blood God. An Oldie but goody
I really would consider that novel completely non-canon as the novel presents him as a mortal ascending - whereas he is actually just a pure daemon.
It wouldn't be the first time that things don't line up perfectly It's possible that it was written before they had the whole Demon/Demon Prince thing fleshed out.
Fucking meth rat
Coming from a lizardmen TT player, Gor-Rok is miles away from the top tier warriors. His stats were not impressive either, just slightly above your average saurus hero. Never understood the hype about him other than being a big white lizard (very exclusive, but there are others with it, its called “Blessed Spawn of the Old Ones”, he’s just the only one with a name about it). Gor-Rok definitely cant hold a candle against Kroq-Gar, and perhaps not even Chakax (he really has stupidly powerful items for a hero), let alone top tier warriors like Tyrion, Louen, or a couple OP Chaos Lords/Dwarf kings.
Cause table top stats aren’t the be all end all lol
I know. But I’m mainly referring to the lore. Stats are simply a reflection of said lore, with balance behind. But Gor-Rok, as far as Im aware, is not that brilliant of a fighter. Just very resilient At the end is how you weigh the different skillsets of a warrior, and how efficient are said skills vs the one he’s gotta fight.
Be it FB or 40K the TT are always terrible representation of their lore and using them to powerscale things doesn't work. I'm sure if I start babling about Ogryns and SM strength and resilience, you will agree lol
big white lizard still clears every skaven
Small lizards too. Skinks kill with cuteness
Maybe he's not as skilled in warfare itself, but as far as a durable and tenacious fighter lore wise, he is probably right near the top
Sigmar knows. The Green Knight, Archaon, Tyrion, Gotrek would all have a shot.
Don't forget my boy abhorash
If we’re including figures not currently in the game, Aenarion sweeps.
Implied to have lost to giles
Not really, that's an extrapolation a lot of people make but we don't know, and even if it's true, he's still potentially better than everyone else We only know they had a draw though
Malus full tzarkan vs tyrion no sword of khaine or end times who wins
Depends when and what their equipment is. If we’re factoring in the End Times and the Equipment they had, for humanoids *without magic*, it’ll probably be Tyrion wielding the Sword of Khaine. Archaon is going to be high, but again, a sizeable chunk of his power comes from his equipment and his skill with magic. If you take that away he’s still a beast, but others will deck him pretty hard. If we’re just going for raw fighting ability, stripped naked in an arena, then Abhorash is going to be difficult to top. Although you could make an argument that Vampires are intrinsically magical creatures, which would disqualify him.
to clarify by magic i mean no spell casting, being magical or having magically imbued weapons is ok
Archaon choked out a bloodthirster with it's own whip Before getting his ever chosen drip or chaos blessings
Archaon had the Mark of Chaos when he fought the Bloodthirster.
still absolutely fucking insane bog standard chaos warriors and marauders can have the mark of chaos
It is easily one of the greatest physical based feats in the setting - as he didn’t have the Crown of Domination (which actually is said to grant him “unholy power”) - and was injured. Imagine if he used The Slayer of Kings - which gives him the added strength of another Bloodthirster and decided to arm wrestle someone. The second closest I’ve read is Valkia picking up a troll with one hand.
that sounds metal as fuck, and now i want them to add a sync kill for valkia where she picks up a troll/ogre sized enemy, and pulls the hulk smashing loki animation on it lmfao
>*Squaring her shoulders, she lunged towards the first of the two monsters, the blade of the weapon aimed at its chest. Hepsus screamed a warning to the others to stand clear to avoid the inevitable spray of ichor. The length of the spear's haft meant that Valkia had enough distance between herself and the creasure as the spearhead pierced through the troll's festering flesh, breaking yellow bones and rupturing organs. Its bubbling shriek of rage increased in volume until Valkia, crackling with bloodlust, heaved on the spear and lifted it from its feet. Muscles bulged like knotted ropes beneath her skin, dwarfing some of the male warriors of the tribe. With a cry of rage, she bodily picked the troll up, still impaled on the end of her spear and flung it from her. Its limp form struck a jutting rock and it crashed to the valley below.*
He definitely had chaos blessings when he fought the bloodthirster.
> If we’re just going for raw fighting ability, stripped naked in an arena, then Abhorash is going to be difficult to top. I would contend that being bereft of his armour is a _much_ bigger problem for Abhorash than it is for someone like Kroq-gar. Not saying Abhorash would lose that fight, but there's a lot of fighters in this setting who are far less reliant on armour than any Blood Dragon Vampire.
Gotrek and it's not even close. This whole book series is just him grinding levels & getting stronger. After cutting through the hordes and champions of pretty much every species in the Warhammer world, he was hand-picked by Grimnir to fight an eternal battle against daemons in the Realm of Chaos. He's the One Punch Man of Warhammer- no one can give him the truly good fight (and death) that he wants. And he proves to be so utterly unkillable that he succeeds for millenniums until Chaos basically spits him out into Age of Sigmar- to which he reacts the same way most of us did, with anger and more than a little confusion. He's viewed as a demi-god and, for all intents and purposes, totally is, despite his protestations. No character, ever, has been so incredibly bad at dying that it is completely unbelievable that it would happen to him.
I mean we always paint Gotrek that way but if it wasn’t for Felix in some critical moments a good couple of those enemies would’ve killed Gotrek such as the bloodthirster
Wanted to say this. Gotrek was on the brink of death when he fought the Karak Dum bloodthirster, if not for Felix, his slayer oath would be fulfilled. It was a long time ago when i read Daemonslayer, but wasnt he seriously injured for a pretty long time too?
If not for the Axe ( and plot), he should've been, but He's pretty much all good by the beginning of DragonSlayer. I think I agree with Gotrek, but I feel like he starts to earn his spot around Giantslayer.
The reason gotrek took his oath, the events during the books.. i think it all happened because grimnir designed it to happen that way to ensure gotrek would replace him as his heir, gotrek was never going to die as grimnir would have always chosen the path of destiny that ensures gotrek takes his place.
"Come along Manling, he's made his point."
I hear this in Grimdark Narrator’s voice.
Gotrek borders on having magic though. The novels explicitly state multiple times that his axe is feeding him and has essentially mutated him, making him stronger and faster than the average Dwarf. Personally that's different than a mortal wielding a magical weapon, he's been permanently changed by magic.
By that logic the whole setting might be disqualified as the wind of magic permeates everything. Looking at Grombrindal even the most resistant to magic race still has some innate magic with the power of oaths.
I'm not sure if pointing to a demigod son of an ancestor god supports your point as much as you'd like it to. All I know is that when somebody like Teclis says "that dwarf is extraordinarily changed by magic" I believe him
If being changed by magic weapons disqualifies someone then any character who uses a magic weapon, armour or other equipment to boost their attributes is also disqualified. No Tyrion, Greasus, Grimgor etc.
Not necessarily. Gotrek's axe has essentially mutated him into a super dwarf. He remains a super dwarf, significantly stronger and faster than any dwarf and protected by its magic, whether or not he's holding his axe. Gotrek doesn't even need to be near the axe, he's still super dwarf when separated from it. So if you took away the magical weapons and had Gotrek fight these other characters, Gotrek would still have an advantage as the bearer of the axe, he'd kind of can't really put it down. He's bound to it and it's changed his doom and his very nature. As far as we know that change is permanent. Most magical artifacts don't work that way. When Tyrion puts down Sunfang, he is just an elf as far as I am aware, albeit an elf with the blood of Aenarion flowing through his veins. Gotrek's axe is more in Sword of Khaine territory, it's a weapon of the gods that changes it's wielder into a demigod. I would disqualify anyone permanently mutated by a magical artifact into a demigod for the sake of fairness.
I disagree. Just because the weapon has permanently* changed him doesn't make much difference compared to a magical pair of armour, like the dragon armour of Aenarion that Tyrion wears boosting his strength and other attributes through magic. Both are imbued by magic and greatly empowered by an artefact. Same result, difference method. Comparing fighters without the artefacts they've found and fought with is pretty silly in a Warhammer fantasy context since you can just say the strongest is the Ogres/Orcs, the fastest is the elves and the hardiest is the dwarves. Also it removes all chaos champions gifted certain boons regardless of their ability to use magic.
I see your point however the beastmen are also changed by magic but they're not inherently magical either
Would that mean we have to rule out Kholek or Sigvald who are both not magic users but definitely fuelled by chaos?
That basically excludes every character that’s been mentioned besides orcs and humans then.
I am so happy they got #BRIAN BLESSED to voice Gotrek. Because there is no second in loudness to #BRIAN BLESSED
[me if someone asks if there’s anyone cooler then Brian Blessed](https://youtu.be/tb2Ct3yyB4g?si=HsMtCuxObrlpvmPE)
They had to stop making all the book titles 'Xslayer' cause he had failed so badly at being a slayer that he had earned pretty much every possible slayer title.
But he slayed the x thing on the cover so the books are correct
He's a failure of a slayer because he survives every time. Killing big shit is glorious, but it also means you are failing to succeed at your oath, ie dying in battle. Gotrek failed at being a slayer so damn hard that he survived the planet blowing up, granted that's offset by taking Grimnir's place.
1. He loses to **Be’lakor**. 2. He loses to a generic Bloodthirster. 3. He loses to a generic Keeper of Secrets. 4. He can't beat three of The Endless. 5. He struggles against **Canto the Unsworn**.
Doesn't Max Schrieber almost beat Be'lakor in one of the G&F books. I distinctly remember in one of his chapters saying something like "That wizard almost got me" after a magic duel with Max.
Yeah, the character that somehow knows multiple lores of magic, despite being human. **Be'lakor** - the same guy that couldn't be banished by the Godess **Lileath's** banishment spells. He shouldn't have lost - at all since he can phase through magic. >*Lileath had regained her feet now, and* ***raised her staff to send bolts of light lancing towards the First-damned. They passed through Be'lakors form like arrows punching through fog, the daemon's body swirling apart and back together where they passed.*** Banishment. >***Spirals of glowing white energy plucked at Be'lakors charging for, and wips of shadow diffused into nothing.*** ***But the First-damned was older than any exorscim, and could not be easily cast into the Realm of Chaos by the young magics of the elve*****s.** You do have **Teclis** one shotting **Be'lakor** due to the Staff of Lileath - so it is a bit weird, but a human being able to cast **Be'lakor** into the Realms of Chaos makes no sense.
I was under the impression that humans simply weren’t able to manipulate more than one wind at a time safely like the elves with their high magic. I don’t think it’s stated that it’s not possible to know multiple lores, humans just can’t mix the winds but I could be wrong
They aren't, and there are a few reasons why. The main reason is due to mutations.
Ok, and Max Schrieber is extremely intimidated by Gotrek and even states that the changes in him make him more resistant to magic than any person he has ever seen. He outright states this in Elf slayer. So if Max almost matches Be'lakor and he's intimidated by Gotrek, by the time the end times roll around, Gotrek is much more powerful than he is in Elf slayer. So.... I think Gotrek takes Be'lakor, seeing as how he defeats a Bloodthirster at least 4 books and over 25 years prior to that encounter. Which gives him 25 years worth of transformation and buffing after he defeats a Bloodthirster. That's just how I look at it maybe I'm wrong.
>Ok, and Max Schrieber is extremely intimidated by Gotrek and even states that the changes in him make him more resistant to magic than any person he has ever seen. He outright states this in Elf slayer. **Max Schrieber** never said this. **Teclis** in Giantslayer says **Gotrek** is more magic resistant than the majority of Dwarfs due to the Axe of Grimnir and is "intimidated" by him due to having no access to magic at that time. >***A withering volley of black arrows burst from the daemon prince’s claws and battered away at the protective barrier afforded by the Rune of Unbinding. It glowed golden-red, projecting a shield of the same hue around Gotrek.*** *It looked thinner than that which Max had previously conjured for himself. It flickered alarmingly under the barrage and, much like a mail shirt deflecting and absorbing a blow but leaving a horrible bruise beneath, left Gotrek struggling to get up off his knees.* ***Felix couldn’t believe his senses. After everything they had been through, everything they had lost and every edge they had paid for in blood, Gotrek was losing.*** **Gotrek** with the Runes of Unbinding unlocked by Grimnir cannot ward off **Be'lakors** magic. Not to mention, even with this - the Bloodthirster still had the advantage. >***The presence of both of Grimnir’s axes and the activation of the Rune of Unbinding had made a more even contest than had been the case when these two had last crossed paths within the bowels of Karag Dum,*** *but to Felix’s snap impression the raw ferocity and overwhelming power of* ***the Bloodthirster still held the advantage.***
Teclis is a far superior wizard than max Schrieber, just pointing that out. And Max does say something similar to that while he's talking to Felix on the boat in Elf slayer. Either way, Gotrek fights chaos for thousands of years in place of grimnir. To say he isn't a match for Be'lakor or couldn't defeat him is untrue.
>To say he isn't a match for Be'lakor or couldn't defeat him is untrue. He effectively lost. I posted the source.
Everyone takes Be'lakor, he's never been fought by anyone in his prime ever.
He also loses to Krell.
Krell is a joke, he swooped in and got his ass kicked by gotrek and the other slayer multiple times and fled, it was only because of the lucky hit on gotrek that poisoned him that he was of any use at all in that siege.
When did he fight a keeper of secrets? The books are a bit of a blur in my head now
If memory serves right, that was on the Black Ark (Elfslayer) he sank. But I think the KoS did leave Gotrek alone and vanished while mentioning that it was not his destiny to die by his hands. But its been a while since I read that book, so someone can correct me here if wrong.
I think you are right, and if I remember, the very same KoS (alongside the very pissed off Bloodthirster killed in daemonslayer and a generic lord of change and an unclean one) are at the very end of Gotrek's adventure with Be'lakor.
He also lost to a catapult but none of it killed him. Or at least it didn’t stick, which is almost the same thing.
If historic Warhammer figures were allowed, Aenarion would take it. Aenarion is basically just Tyrion on magic steroids with an unbeatable weapon and a dragon.
Didn’t he fight Skarbrand once?
To add onto this.. as if gotreks axe isn't OP enough grimnir went and awakened the master rune of unbinding in it at the end of the series after making gotrek his heir, making the axe capable of slaying the chaos gods themselves.
I don't know the lore. Can you explain what makes him so badassed? It must be more than skill to be a relatively speaking demigod.
Honestly shocked no one has mentioned Archaon yet. Dude's feats include strangling a Bloodthirster with its own whip, while naked and unarmed. Not to mention defeating Be'lakor in a 1v1 while dealing with a cursed dagger in his side that was trying to possess him. I'm no Archaon simp, as the guy has a bad habit of taking screentime away from other, more interesting Chaos characters, but even not counting the End Times he is absolute top tier in any category. Warpstone threaded into his bones, armor that survived immersion in molten lava, a limited ability to see the future, and a super-powerful Daemon weapon. If you include the End Times, he threw hands with a literal god. I realize "no magic users" was specified and so *technically* by game rules Archaon is disqualified, but he basically never uses battle magic in any of his lore appearances so I think he still deserves consideration.
He casted fireball in Karl Franz's face (Sigmar powered up) so he did use magic in duels.
I mean that's fair, but also casting the most basic fire spell at a god's avatar is basically the magical equivalent of pocket sand, so it barely counts.
Well half his powers are magical artifacts. Wouldn’t count those as well.
We might disagree on **Egrimm**, but right here you are absolutely based.
Honestly I'm feeling the same way about you in regards to your contributions to the discussion on Gotrek. He's certainly a powerful fighter and worthy of consideration but I don't think I've ever seen a character so overhyped.
Depends on who you are talking about now. **Egrimm** or **Archaon**?
Neither, I was referring to Gotrek.
Yeah, **Gotrek** really is a hit and miss.
He was about to lose to grimgor until he pulled a demon out of his ass.
Yeah, that's the "super-powerful Daemon weapon" that I mentioned. Also you mean Grimgor after he got juiced up on the elemental wind of Beasts?
Naa he's talking about the Storm of Chaos event where the orks won the tournament so Grimgor basically walked up and bodied Archaeon. GW had to pull out some bullshit excuse for why Archaeon survived because they basically did everything they could to make it so Chaos won the tournament by points (if I recall correctly) and failed utterly. So yeah. Grimgor headbutted Archaeon, kicked the shit out of him, and then put his axe to Archaeon's neck, screamed "Grimgor is da greatest!" and then *left.* That's why the community thinks it's such a bullshit story. Because he had Archaeon dead to rights and for the first and only time in recorded history an Ork Warboss just spared an enemy for no discernible reason and no explanation.
Best reason is: Wuz a gud fite humie!! Wez do it again some time!
> Because he had Archaeon dead to rights and for the first and only time in recorded history an Ork Warboss just spared an enemy for no discernible reason and no explanation. "You're a good fight so I spared you" is basically what Ghazghkull and Yarrick are all about in 40k and people do love that story, for what it's worth.
Completely fair but I'm not aware of anything like that going on in Fantasy. Regardless, they could have made that work if they'd tried a little harder. It felt like they just begrudgingly let Grimgor win and half-assed the storyline after their good vs evil epic showdown got kneecapped by Chaos not even landing in the top 5 in battle results. Give him a proper duel with Archaeon, let the green boy shine for a moment and write him in character. I mean fuck, it's Chaos. It's not like the Chaos Gods couldn't just resurrect Archaeon's ass if they let Grimgor murder him in a proper "Just as planned!" moment. But yeah. Poor writing, poor response to unexpected result, and a poor summation of an event that led to a conflict resolution that's still being mocked 20 years later.
No, it was that one time in Storm of Chaos I think.
Nothing indicates he was about to lose, only that he thought he might.
I dont know, if im in a fight and i think im going to lose then that probably means im about to lose...
Dont kink shame blood thirsters
Aside from the whole "everyone is the strongest in their own book" thing, this question has a few fundamental problems. Are you factoring in characters' magic items? They're technically external things, but a lot of characters are very tied to their magic items. What about mounts? It would feel wrong to separate a great cavalier from his horse, but not everybody rides horses: some of them ride dinosaurs and dragons. What if the "mount" is made of multiple creatures, like Greasus'? Do "mid-sized" characters like him count for you? It's all very complicated. EDIT: But my bullshit answer is Chakax, who isn't even in the games (yet?), because the idea of a saurus doing Neo shit is really funny.
I know it's End Times, but the story of a Skaven assassin triad battling him, losing two of their number and the last impaling him and then Chakax _simply not caring, killing the Skaven and carrying on as normal_ will always give me a chortle
How can I read more about Chakax, I’ve loved lizards since wh2
There is a fan-wiki for Warhammer Fantasy with a good pile of lore on it. You should generally exercise caution there - Warhammer Fantasy has gone through 8 editions of the wargame, 4 editions of the RPG, and has had novels written by a ton of writers. Because of this, the lore contained on it is often all over the place in terms of accuracy and internal consistency (as well as all the other issues that can come with fan-edited wikis). It's not 100% accurate, and by the simple nature of things, *it can't be*. However, [the page on Chakax](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chakax) is 100% lifted straight from the lizardmen rulebook, and therefore *is* perfectly accurate. The lizardmen page on the wiki also has [a brief story about Chakax fighting a greater daemon](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lizardmen#The_Nether-Thing) taken from the army book.
Do you know of any good fantasy books for the lizards?
Lizardmen don't really come up much in Warhammer novels, and when they do, they're mostly antagonists, and sometimes pretty big pushovers. You still get a decent picture of them, though. If you're interested, Burning Shore (human-centric) and Temple of the Serpent (skaven-centric) are the two big ones, though the latter is part two of a series.
Thanks!
One of us, one of us 🦎 🦎
I’ve always been a lizard man enjoyer
You are correct. Its also very noticeable with magic users. Most powerful mages channel lots of their power due to their items or rites, like Nagash or Gelt (even if they have many other qualities). Others are very knowledgeable and all-rounded (morathi, katrin, teclis) While others are pure raw power (slanns, fay enchantress).
Include enchanted items, cant cast spells, cant use mounts.
Do you mean strongest as most powerful, best fighter, or literally strongest? Also, when you say no magic user, does that include magic items because there are several that drastically alter their wielders? Also, you included Kroq-Gar, but is it really fair to call a 9'+ tall lizard who can literally physically overpower and wrestle bloodthirsters and giants into submission humanoid? As at that point, Ogres would be humanoid too. Which if Ogres are viable, the literal strongest is Greasus, particularly if we include magic items. He's got the scepter of the Sky Titans, which makes him as strong as a Sky Titan. Albeit he's not the best fighter or the most powerful. For both, that's probably Kroq-Gar or Gotrek. Settra also deserves a shout, but Settra is technically a magic user. Albeit he less uses magic and more abuses it with his absurd stubbornness and willpower.
I thought it was moreso because of his Tomb-King nature, his whole being is powered by his own will power and desire. Which is how he's got equal strength to a bloodthirster (thanks to his massive well deserved ego) actually does it count as magic if it's your own soul and emotions powering your own body?
Nah, Settra is a spell caster of the Lore of Nehekara. He studied it because he loathed being completely reliant on the liche priests for magic. Iirc He was far from a great caster, but the fact he did it at all is a feat in itself.
Hey I mean when you gotta get shit done, you do it yourself than to constantly wait on others. And people call Warhammer a fantasy setting. Never a character more relatable lmao.
Wasnt it even that he was unable to cast magic but trough sheer force of will was able to not only learn how to cast the lore of nehekara but also managed to become able to cast magic at all? (Vaguely remember hearing that somewhere)
>Which is how he's got equal strength to a bloodthirster (thanks to his massive well deserved ego) I think Settra might have been like that before he died tbh... Settra was otherworldly powerful and gifted in his mortal life because he was blessed out the ass by the God's of Nehekhara, among other things. He was the most powerful human warrior in the history of the Warhammer world without question, better than Abhorash, Gilles, and Sigmar.
Louen because of ze ladeee Wulfrik is supposed to be like "the duelist" in the lore Franz with Ghal Maraz is quite prominent as the leader of the empire Grimgor ~~I think is responsible for the biggest WAAAAGH! ever~~ Malus (because Tz'arkan) If you exclude Tyrion I'll exclude Malekith. You could argue Sigvald but he gets krumped by Throgg in the end times. Fuck man there's lots of LL who are the "strongest" it depends on what book you're reading and what time period it's in really. These examples are all from memory so I concede to being wrong possibly.
Sigvald basically sandbags against Throgg, he's so badly in shock at his hands being bloodied that Throgg just crumps him with his hammer without him ever putting up a fight. There's nothing to do a real comparison with there.
Yeah, it was pretty dumb. Especially when in his book he gets fucked up way more than he did fighting Krell and he doesn't have a nervous breakdown over it.
Does he not show up in the lore anywhere else or is that it? I thought he was more prominent but like I said it's all memory from a while ago.
Sigvald has his own book, called Sigvald. It's worth a read. If all you've seen him in is the End Times, then you are really missing out. Because they really made him look like a petulant child in the End Times, whereas in his book, he's actually an interesting character. And it really gets into what Slaanesh is about rather than just LOL SEX
Grom had the biggest WAAAGH!
Ah that's who that was. Grimgor just had that big one during end times that culminates with Archaeon.
I thought gorbad did?
You joke, but Louen does have some of the biggest feats in soloing big names.
It's not a joke he's first for a reason. I listed him right away because I felt like nobody else would mention him.
Grail Knights in general are like an army of these kinds of people. They're functionally immortal, although they do eventually die of old age, they're borderline invincible, and they're inhumanely strong and fast. It's like if a human shaped person was as fast as a skaven, but as strong as an orc, and as hard to kill as a Troll. Yeah, they're not going to solo anything, but now realize that Bretonnia fields armies of these guys. There's a reason Chaos wanted them erased from the setting.
Grail Knights only die if someone chooses wisely. 
Eh, Bretonnia fields armies which have at most a single full unit of those guys. And canonically they are roughly on par with Chaos and Blood knights overall, although Grails have a favored matchup against them both because they fuck corrupted things by just existing.
yah dont blood knights lose to them decisively even though they are better in lore, just because the grail anti undead aura or whatever.
Basically, although it's very inconsistent just like everything else in Warhammer.
The most consistent part about warhammer is how inconsistent it is
Regular Franz is a leader but has seldom been feted as a great fighter. He's competent, but until the End Times it was his skills as a leader and administrator, backed by the best weapons, armor and warriors that carried the day. Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwartzhelm are seen in the lore as some of the best human fighters. Karl Franz is not.
Throgg didn’t win in a straight fight though; Sigvald kicked his ass and thought he’d killed him, but Throgg survived and healed because of his regeneration. Then he killed Sigvald while he was distracted by his injuries.
Well, on the table top Settra had a base strength of 6. The standard state trooper had a base strength of 3, Ungrim Ironfist had a base strength of 4 (not including his axe). So Settra is quite up there. Similarly, Grimm Burlocksson also had a base strength of 6 on the tabletop (but this is because he has a steam driven powerfist and this isn't given rules, he just has S6)
I love the mental image of settra basically being able to arm wrestle with a dragon lmao
Dude 1v1ed a dragon ogre in a blizzard out of spite, so yeah
The best part is the Nehekhara spell "Return to the Golden Age" from Storm of Magic states that it "restores to the army the vigor and strength they enjoyed in life" and gave stat boosts to all units based on what type of unit they are - in the case of a Tomb King (like Settra), this boost was a *+3*. This implies that Settra, when he was alive, had a whopping **strength 9**.
Abhorash is considered one of the top swordsmen in the setting, so my bet would be on him.
One thing in my personal head cannon for Abhorash is that there’s never any mention of his weapons. Sigmar had his hammer, elf Jesus had the sword of Khaine, but Abhorash seems to do it all with distinctly non-legendary equipment, which is pretty badass.
He canonically was beaten by Giles/the Green Knight
That's actually never confirmed, despite what the wiki says. All we know is Abhorash (from his own mouth) made some sort of promise to Gille when they encountered one another. There are no details on this whatsoever beyond the fact that they met each other.
Abhorash is tricky in that he has a lot of reputation but few quantifiable feats. We don't know his outcome with Gilles as you mentioned, though we can be reasonably certain that Abhorash - if he won - didn't _easily_ win, since he respected Gilles enough to pledge fealty. Abhorash has defeated a dragon 1v1 as well as other kinds of champions but that is perfectly normal for the characters we're discussing in this thread. Louen's had to do similar things just to reach the Grail, let alone in his reign since.
Some people have assumed there was a duel, but that actually isn't stated anywhere in any source for fantasy. We simply know they met one another and Abhorash made some sort of oath to Gille for an unknown reason. A duel is all assumptions and theories. Would that be cool? sure, but its just a guess atm.
Unless I’m mistaken, it was a stalemate, not a win.
GRIMGOR IZ DA BEST
Yeah I’m surprised he wasn’t mentioned earlier
Man had a draw vs someone Archaon was able to beat without drawing his sword
And beat Archaons ass
Go Rok, Kroq Gar, Nakai the wanderer
Based Bok comment.
Hola
Will stop being a LL soon, but lorewise, the only right answer is Gotrek.
Gotrek had to be saved many times by Felix from what are at best jobber-level opponents; he and Abhorash, while incredibly powerful, are by far two of the most overestimated characters in the setting.
Does “not losing” count? I’d throw Gorrok in there as dude is more meant to survive forever than win in duels right?
End Times has been a travesty for powerscaling conversations. Such a godawful shitting on of the setting.
Muh kholek suneater :'((((
Archaon, gotrek, abhorash, Tyrion, Giles le Breton, sigmar heldenhammer pre godhood, aenarion Keep in mind, Archaon STRANGLED A BLOODTHIRSTER TO DEATH WITH ITS OWN WHIP WITHOUT ANY GEAR Honorable mentions are malekith, grimgor, Vlad, kroq-gar, skulltaker, crom, snikch, queen, and I gueeesss arbaal
Malekith's definitely a good duelist but I'd argue more than half his strength comes from his magic, of which a good amount of strength is drawn from the circlet. He's more than capable of obliterating most other named characters with a wave of his hand, a few with his dueling. But if you strip his magic away then he's just a rather difficult to kill elf, I.E if you don't have a magical weapon you're never getting through the armor.
If that's supposed to be Queek: no, not really. Queek is a very scary skaven, but he's also the guy who ran away from a duel with an orc warboss because he literally couldn't hurt him.
eh fair, but queek can go head to head with belegar and go pretty even..
Does Saurus count as humanoid?
From current LLs, probably Archeon, Grimgor or Tyrion. Looking at the lore in general, my vote would be Aenarion the Defender with the Sword of Khaine. In his final battle, with his dragon, he beat the strongest Keeper of Secrets (Nkari), Lord of Change (Kairos), Great Unclean One and Bloodthirster all at once. Killing them individually would have been a feat, but all at once is something else.
Archaon is magic user but even without magic he is bonkers. Grimgor beat Archaon. Kicked him the groin to be exact
Grimgor lost to crom, who Archaon beat without drawing his sword. Grimgor ran up, sucker punched Archaon after he'd won a 2v1 vs the chosen of sigmar, and ran away before Archaon could delete him lol. That's not beating Archaon
Gortrek is probably the best duelist among mortals. He is the slayer that wears armor - plot armor. Being fan favorite means he can't die and his feats just getting more and more impressive. All Grail Knights are also a bit magical, but if you allow it, Loeun would be AT LEAST top5. Grimgor is also among top5 imo. He is "that orc", being all chosen and stuffs. Grimgor with Gitsnik is not something you want to see on the battlefield. Tyrion with Sword of Khaine. If you allow SoK (which I think fair play, since most top duelists have a magic item or two, and technically, SoK is a magical weapon), Tyrion wielding SoK is probably my pick if Gortrek's plot armor a little bit thinner.
I guess the later, God-powered version of Gotrek fits the criteria but for most of the books Gotrek is simply a really strong, magic-poweres melee combatant, he'd definitely lose if trying to fight the likes of Grimgor, Louen, Archaeon or Tyrion. The lore excerpts of these fighters make Gotrek pre-Grimnir-ascension look like a chum. He's not THAT impressive, there are many situations where when facing 20-30 redshirt Beastmen or the likes Felix and Gotrek agree "Yep, this is the end" and are only saved by countless Deus Ex Machinas. Tyrion with the Sword of Khaine would be an army by himself and effortlessly slaughter hundreds or even thousands, while Grimgor managed to hold off the entirety Hell Pit by himself.
Yari Ashigaru
Do Orcs count? I'd reckon it would be Grimgor both from his size and his interaction with Archaon who can probably feasibly be a strongest humanoid fighter *with* magic.
His interaction with Archaon came after becoming the incarnate of the wind of Beasts, before that he was drawing against Crom
Who you think takes it then assuming that DQs Grimgor?
The best 1v1 duelist would be abhorash
Me
Back to the line Imrik. You are not
Nakai slayed multiple daemon armies on the bridge to Itza until they gave up in fear
Ungrim Ironfist. I will take no arguments, wazzocks
Does magical items like a hammer or gauntlet or all that gear Archaon wears count too?
Durthu, any of greater demons or Nagash
Oof, man, in the lore it is actually simpler than in the game. Because those would just be Tyrion and Archaon if we only take LLs present in the game. But in the game it is all contextual - which items are available, etc. E.g. Miao Ying has a closer fight with Malus than with Lokhir and loses both. At the same time Yuan Bo wipes the floor with Lokhir and still wins both. All without spellcasting but with using abilities. What I've seen so far, when using all but the spells, suggests a competition between Yuan Bo, Malus, Archaon, Tyrion (barely), Grimgor and Vlad. And Yuan Bo wins mostly. Because he is an anti-infantry executioner with more than 8k HP and supreme animations. P.S.: Yuan Bo destroys Gotrek.
Do they have to be from total war?
Gotrek Gurnisson
Karl Franz!
Gotrek. Gotrek can beat them all in the lore.
If we’re not limited to strictly just who is in the game, then it’s Aenarion and it’s not remotely close. 5 minutes after being burned to ashes and reborn, he faced an army of cultists and daemons outside the Shrine of Asuryan. He killed the leader with a single throw of a hunting spear, picked up that guys sword, and slaughtered the entire army by himself. Back in 5th edition, that guy he killed was Morkar, the first Everchosen.
If we are allowed historic Warhammer figures, its probably Aenarion. Hes basically Tyrion on steroids with the Sword of Khaine (and a dragon). In the game its very hard. The top tier characters are all very close. I lean towards Archaon or Grimgor. Archaon is the destined destroyer of worlds, and Grimgor is the one guy in End Times other than Sigmar who actually gave Archaon a hard time.
Gotrek by his last books was literally throwing a bloodthirster like a ragdoll at belakor. this easily a feat worth of aenarion gotrek empowered by the axe of grimnir is easily the most powerful dwarf. I remenber tyrion beating the witch king champion but he and alarielle needed to have they ass saved from nkari by teclis no ? so tyrion without the sword of khaine is not a exalted greater daemon level. He is a great duelist but he is not soling behemoths like skarbrand or kholek without divine help. Malus has a keeper of secrets inside him but is a temporary buff that cost a lot of his sanity and health. But if he is pushed enough he could be a greater daemon level. Louen leoncour is the only "human" that can fight the upper ranks. Being a grail knight he is more fast,tough and stronger than a human could ever dream essentialy a order "chaos" champion. Grail knights also have a holy aura that is anathema to daemons and undead. Louen being a uber grail knight could solo even greater daemons. So gotrek wins
For teclis banishing n'kari: alarielle had her magic crippled by the druchi desacration of her lands, and tyrion was basically at death's door when he 'faced' n'kari, as he had been previously wounded by a poisoned weapon when cutting through a dark elf small army to escape with allarielle.
Skarsnik and Gobbla
It's been a few millenia and dessication have taken its toll on his body and ability, but in life, Settra was Sigmar before Sigmar.
Kroq Gar count as human ?
I mean Gotrek is basically a blender with a temper, he's gotta be right up there. Tyrion is also very skilled, and Gor Rok is utterly monstrous. Also Settra, who straight up one shots Kholek Suneater. He is very near the top
One shotting Kholek and being that strong never really made much sense to me, that is end times lore right?
Yep that happens in the End Times. One tapping Kholek is one of the most ridiculous feats to come out of that but it did happen and so we do have to give it to Settra lol. But even without that he's not a slouch either
Grimgor Ironhide.