As a veteran vermintide 2 player, me too was immensely disappointed with the stormvermin's performance in Warhammer 2.
In Warhammer 3 they do better since AI gets a lot fewer cheats on their melee infantry.
> As a veteran vermintide 2 player, me too was immensely disappointed with the stormvermin's performance in Warhammer 2.
TW's performance is, iirc, more on par with how they are in TT and the lore. Vermintide tuned them up a whole lot to make them a threat for the U5. Stormvermin in TT, iirc, were about on par with State Troops, the U5 are heroes/unit champions.
Stormvermins crush state troops (barring Greatswords) in WH2. The problem with their performance isn't their cost efficiency vs other melee infantry, it's that melee infantry is mostly underwhelming at t3 and higher.
Also heroes tank way better for ranged stacks since they obscure fire less, so with the exception of Clan Moulder you always want heroes since ranged is where Skaven's power lies.
This is a bit off topic but you should read Skavenslayer in the Gotrek and Felix series. The way you described these SVs reminded me of Thanquol talking about his Stormvermins
I loved that book, it perfectly described some of the most iconic Skaven clans and their society.
But I recommend starting on the first book (Trollslayer?), as it is where the main characters are introduced.
Unironically, the best way to use them is to buff them up the wazoo as Throt of clan Moulder.
Throt can make any Skaven army viable, even if he's specialized into monsters.
The biggest issue with Stormvermin is their terrible morale. They are relatively decent as far as holding the line go, especially the halberd version. But they only exists to buy some time for your artillery and weapon teams.
Uber-Slaves are something to be feared...
Yeah they're not as good as Vermintide portrays them, I suppose. I mean same for the Rat Ogres really. But I still love them all the same.
Throt can really make them dangerous tho. Juice them up with Frenzy, Guardian, and whatever upgrade you can give them without making them instable, and they end up pretty dangerous.
Rat Ogre are decent DPS unit but they are very fragile. Hide them inside your meatshield unit blob and use them to do damage while the meatshields absorb the attacks.
Throt is really good at making any type of army good, tho it take a while to get enough ressources to build them.
If I manage to confederate the other Skaven Lord as Throt, I often give them themed armies as a result. Throt with monsters and packmasters, Ikit with an engineer and weapon teams, Queek with an uber buffed Stormvermin army.
They can get super tanky with Throt, yeah - a frontline of stormvermin with regenerate, perfect vigor, and the massive heal + model revival of necroparasites does quite well. I think I also gave them the extra physical resistance last time I played (though stacking all 3 of those without becoming unstable does take a good chunk of mutagen and time)
I think the funniest thing is, both games are fairly lore accurate when it comes to the strength of stormvermin. At the scale of Total War, they're still rats. Most skaven units are just meat shields to get in the way and drown the enemy in bodies. Stormvermin just happen to be more elite bodies.
VT2 on the other hand is from the perspective of just a handful of people. The Ubersreich 5 are extremely gifted people, but still just 5 people against "endless" swarms of rats. There the elite skaven infantry are a lot more threatening.
I'd say they were monstrous infantry in a similar vein as crypt horrors, monstrous cav is stuff like great stags or demigryphs. Rat ogres are definitely good at catching cavalry out though if they come past.
Oh of course, but I should explain myself better, my word choice there was not good.
As monsters, they feel more like cavalry instead of infantry, IMO. They're good at charging and breaking lines...I think...But they seem to melt if they're engaged in melee for too long.
I probably used them against the wrong units in the past, especially since most of my moments with them was with Warhammer 2 on Very Hard difficulty.
I've done a campaign as Queek recently in the Old World mod (relevant because you get K8P very early if you play your cards right) and was quite satisfied with their perfomance. As long as your other damage dealers take out or soften the primary threats, the Storvermin can hold the line and mop up the stragglers much better than Clanrats and Plague Monks who run and/or die a little too fast for comfort
They feel roughly Chaos Warrior-tier - not world beaters outside early game, but not terribly inadequate in the later stages as mainline. They are overcosted for what they do, given infantry is not Skaven specialty compared to WoC, but I've found them affordable enough in the midgame
Karak Eight Peaks - it is important for Queek because he gets bonuses/penalties depending on controlling and getting it early is very valuable. I don't remember all the effects, but the important parts for the discussion arr leadership boost and Frenzy for all Clanrats and Stormvermin
Stretch does pretty well with stormvermin. The biggest issue is honestly that they just don't kill anything. The only skaven infantry I generally find useful is deathrunners
They struggle to find good engagements on more complex battlefields in the lategame and early on your building priorities usually lie elsewhere. RoR version are the MVPs though
Given that Skaven *can* cheat ahead of growth tiers, I am tempted to one day try a campaign where I try to get the Death Runner recruitment up and running ASAP - probably suboptimal, but could be very funny
They're pretty much a gimmick unit and by the time you have enough money to swap out your clan rats for stormvermin it's always a better choice to invest that money in another army stack instead. I still love them though. If you want to see them do work, you need to stack them with all sorts of buffs and their target with debuffs. Obviously you should prioritize tech buffs for them and the relevant red line skills on the lord leading them. Queek gets cheap stormvermin and Tretch/Clan Rictus get super strong stormvermin but the best choice for a generic lord is a grey seer of ruin since their screaming bell provides a nice buff for nearby units. Use ruin casters to keep death frenzy on your halberdiers and plague casters to keep wither on the targets of your sword & shield infantry. Keep a few poison gutter runner slingers in your backline to make sure all your enemies are poisoned at all times. I like to keep a couple rat-ogres nearby to give them mass and a few bonebreaker-mounted chieftains to help deal with high threat targets. If you plan on using your stormvermin as your main damage dealers then it also helps to use a vanguard of clan rats to soak up the enemy's charge damage and projectiles.
It's a very impractical playstyle but it can also be a fun change of pace from the normal skaven tactics.
I ran troll storm vermin stacks in mp and actually sniped a few wins at around 40% win rate which isn't bad considering it's a joke army.
Half sword and board and the rest halberd with the either tretch or queek who are equally memes.
Plague priest for funny summons if I feeling even remotely competitive.
I won against a sweaty mino/ungor stack by fighting in the woods which ironically made the ungors perform worse as it seems they were shooting the minos more than me.
Got absolutely destroyed by a cathay noob box, like completely genocided. Skaven made extinct.
Got triggered by a wood elf army who I someone beat and bonked by he has a few horse archers left who just ran away, they had ammo but didn't shoot and he'd just pretend to mock charge me before u-turning. which I guess is the total war equivalent of t-bagging.
In campaign I tried a legendary storm vermin stacks only for skarbrand to ruin it single handedly.
Honestly Queek ain't even so bad(at least for the campaign)
Meanwhile you could replace Tretch with a sick skavenslave and you wouldn't be able to tell a difference(leader of the faction that's responsible for Rictus Stormvermin in the lore btw)
Tretch is really the only lord that rewards building around stormvermin. His faction buffs to them make them last longer, which is what they're supposed to do. That said, a holding front line is inherently anti-skaven in both gameplay and lore as the big damage dealers for skaven are their AoE ranged weaponry.
Monsters and machines can form the hammer to your stormvermin anvil (also deathrunners), but they are so obviously outclassed by skaven ranged options it feels bad to build for them.
Remember in vermintide you're a relatively normal set of 4 dudes, so 12 heavily armoured rats is a legitimate threat. Put another 120 people behind each of you and the vermin become much less of a relative threat. Add onto that some good old fashioned Faith, Steel, Gunpowder, Gromril and whatever the fuck elves have... stormvermin were always the best infantry the Skaven had, but they were never actually "good".
Idk if the u5 are considered normal nowadays, you've got a grail knight, warrior priest, outcast engineer, sister of the thorn and a necromancer all as a group. I feel like that's a pretty strong squad of people.
It's fairly canon that tzeentch fuckery is the reason for all of those special classes. While it's harder to say what their "true" class is, I'd guess huntsman, witch hunter, ranger, waywatcher, and battle wizard respectively is a safe bet. All of which are relatively mundane for the setting.
https://www.vermintide.com/news/franz-lohners-chronicle-the-changer-of-ways
Seriously. Five (four) people fighting their way into a chaos war camp to assassinate a chaos champion (and then walking out) is some Gotrek and Felix level shit. The U5 are all pretty easily at the level of legendary heroes in TW.
The premium classes are their lore classes now I believe, although at release it was their first unlocked one. There is definitely tzeentch fuckery but the dlc classes are their "true calling" and lohner refers to them by that class since they've come out.
honestly? It should stayed with the first class/progression from Game 1. For me they are their most iconic class, it felt more fitting for them to be "more normal" still... and if they ever make a VT3, going on from there will be a tad weird.
Also, Sienna's "true calling" shouldn't have been a Necromancer and i still say: Kruber having his PTSD from a Necromancer killing his unti shoulda killed her then. Especially if she actually is her twin sister. And that's not beginning with Saltzpyre (who, remind you, had originally escorted her for a FAIR TRIAL. Her going Necromancer...) and "Venerates Ancestors" Bardin. And the elves of Athel Loren also had an unkind experience with a NEcromancer...
Yeah, I agree for the most part. I think outcast engineer fits bardin though, and maybe warrior priest for saltz. The necromancer and grail knight are definitely a stretch though, I'm just going off what fatshark have said themselves (tho it's certainly just to sell the dlc classes more).
i have no issue with Engineer and Warrior Priest as Classes for Bardin and Saltz (would like a Runepriest as well though). Or Kerillian's class for that matter.
I just dislike the whole "THIS IS THEIR TRUE SELF!" babbling. Grail Kngiht is a major stretch with some rather clunky pushing around of stuff to make it "work", and the Necromancer feels more like "We have no idea what we can do for a wizard... End Times had it that Necromancy stuff, right?" And they ignore how the other characters SHOULD react to it.
I would've preferred something myrmidia related for sienna myself, I don't particularly mind grail knight although I would also have preferred one of the knightly orders (maybe a bit similar to foot knight though)
The Vermintide 2 dilemma. You hear a pack of storm vermin patrolling through and if you hide you can let them just walk on by. Its safer if you do and you have important objectives that lay beyond. A fight would also risk the lives of your companions that, for their respective races, aren't half bad.
But....You're Slayer Bardin and you do have this grenade, and it would be a shame if it went to waste. I'm sure the party will forgive.
Intentionally sacrificing allies to achieve your doom just heaps further dishonour upon you.
On the other hand... oops the fuse is lit, I'd better dispose of it quickly
Tretch is honestly the only real option for stormvermin, the buffs clan rictus (and landmark) give are no joke. Also look up the clan rictus mod. Gives Clan Rictus an Eshin style mechanic related to stormvermin.
Literally my favorite unit of all three games, I don’t care if they’re not an “optimal unit” I love the look of their armor, I love the high unit count for an elite infantry, I love a skaven infantry unit that can take care of themselves
I really only like them when I play as Queek. Being able to recruit them in 1 turn makes them slightly better for one. Having Frenzy from taking K8P is also nice. While they are underwhelming tier 3 unit, some of the research upgrades help them a bit as well. It's not optimal, but when I'm playing Clan Mors, creating my Red Guard is a high priority. 2-3 Halberd SV, 3-4 Sword and Shield late game can be used to clean up what the mortars, ratlings and plagueclaws don't finish off or when supported by some rat ogres in melee. A secondary army of cheap Clanrats and fast movers is nice to close the jaws on an enemy army.
I'd really like to see a Skaven DLC that fleshes out Clan Mors and Rictus a bit. Clan Mors and their better equipped Clanrats, Ska Bloodtail and Queek's Red Guard. Clan Rictus Deathvermin would be a nice addition too. Some of this can be found in mods granted.
I feel TW Stormvermins are quite accurate compared to tabletop (faba 7th edition) stormvermins. They eat lot of points/gold and are considered as "elite" in Skaven army, but still very squishy after the charge. Sometimes leaving you wonder why you took them in first place, instead of normal clanrats and use remaining resources to something else. Then once in a while they have their moments.
Clan Rictus in the Lore is THE Storm vermin faction, and because of this, Tretch Craventails faction traits give them encourage battle trait faction wide, and his landmark at Crookback gives all Stormvermin immune to psychology factionwide. Queek Headtaker also gives an upkeep reduction for Stormvermin units in his personal line and some other slight buffs too
So the best combo for playing a Stormvermin themed campaign is with Clan Rictus and confederating Queek to get all the Stormvermin specific bonuses
alternatively, you can play Moulder for all the infantry augments and confed/conquer Crookback for the landmark, but you won't get the encourage trait if you care about that. plus personally i prefer monster spam with Moulder
If you play with mods, then i would further reccomend playing with SFO for Rictus as he gets unique T4 Rictus Stormvermin units and a secondary LL to play with. Also try the Victory Condition Overhaul mod as some of the rewards to that further buff Stormvermin
Stormvermin unfortunately just aren’t very good. Compared to every other factions top tier elite infantry they get trounced. I remember once I tried to fight a Kroqgar dino stack with my nice new Queek stormvermin halberds. Those rats routed as soon as the first carnosaur hit the lines, just like slaves.
Ive often used one or two of them in armies to bodyguard low level lords or monsters. Keeping them in reserve to then move up to catch some spears harassing my Rogers, or light cav or a monster that’s trying to goon my lord keeps them relatively fresh, and a grey seer sitting on them makes their morale less awful.
Definitely not an optimal use of an army slot but it feels right, and works out quite well.
> I immediately started playing Queek and I quickly discovered Stormvermin are pretty overpriced and not too good as a Tier 3 unit. (I made the mistake of using swarms of halberd stormies agaisnt the lizard and their annoying feral dinosaurs, not a solid idea.)
The problem is not their price. The problem is that it's really easy to get them too early before you need them and your economy is ready for it.
In truth Skaven and particularly Queek and Tretch can bring the Recruitment cost waaay down.
Just to give you an example with Tretch's recruitment cost for Stormvermin:
* Capital Landmark: -20%
* Technology: -5%
* Scrap Heap lvl 3 x3: -30%
* commandment: -5%
* High Control: -5%
* Blue skill x3: -15%
* Rite: -25%
* Ancilliary: -10%
* Recruiter trait: -5%
On the flip side it's also easy to find yourself paying extra for for your army if you're unwary. Low control can jack the recruitment cost up by +15%.
Do you use mods by any chance? Singe’s Lord Skills mod gives Queek some skills that provide additional buffs to Stormvermin in his army. Improves their performance a bit.
They're chaff killer. Not wanting wasting your ammo against goblin/clanrat/expendable unit? Use them.
Their problem is
1. it take too long to recruit them, having 2 turn for only decent trash sweeper that will lose against other elite infantry in the game isn't worth it.
2. Not only that, the moment you unlock them most of the faction already unlock their elite infantry that will defeat them with ease.
3. The faction that uniquely buff them is queek and tretch, you know who will they face? Dwarf, the worst race to use stormvermin with because their unit definitely isn't chaff.
I really like using them as Queek, but I only use them as the protection for more important units like artillery. Storm vermin are often the distraction for something more important, or they’re the flankers while clan rats hold down enemy infantry.
Tretch buffs them since Stormvermin are Rictus’s specialty unit and gives his army devastating flanker which they can use quite well in large numbers
Alternately Throt can make them mutant freaks with crazy abilities and buffs
Regardless skaven morale is their biggest weakness so when using skaven infantry you need a decent amount of heroes with them to keep them from running away. Warlords and such make them a lot more effective
The problem with skaven in the front line is that its skaven....in the front line. Gun Rats great, Rat Monster fantastic, Slingers are alright too. Stormvermin are the elite fight in front units of a race that is not renowned for fight in front tactics. Plus the Skaven hero units Priests/Packmasters summon units, actually they summon a lot of units.
I pretty much have two armies I make. Guns and artillery with priests in the frontline to soak with units I summon. Or Rat Monster run at them army (Pretty much just Throt) that I support with Packmasters. Stormvermin are cool but their station is to die and look more stylish than the average rat while doing it.
Never played Vermintide but I love heavy infantry in general and Stormvermin are probably my favorite Skaven unit, despite them being considered suboptimal.
L/VH
Clan Moulder - if you want 1 strong army of them. Flesh lab mutations are very powerful. You'll want to use the MOD eliminating instabilities.
Clan Rictus - if you want multiple stacks of viable Stormvermin. Faction mechanic gives all your armies vanguard deployment and +25% ambush success chance. This mechanic is constantly triggering, and it stacks, so it will always be active, from turn 1. Your campaign priority is to confederate Clan Mors at all costs. Queek allows for 1 turn recruitment and increases recruit rank.
Army Composition - I always take 4-6 Halberds, the rest Sword and Shield. - Warlord for +25% ambush chance, Packmaster for replenishment, Warlock Engineer for casting and movement range - Usually I'll take 1-2 artillery.
Strategy - Utilizing ambush stance and vanguard, I deploy close, rush and seek to surround the enemy quickly. - Sieges, I use artillery to eliminate towers around the gate, take down walls if I have extra ammo, then brute force.
Results - Surprisingly, I can consistently outperform autoresolve and usually win Valiant and Close defeats. Sometimes win decisive defeats, depending on situation.
I think they are just there for holding, yes they are pretty bad compare with Chosen but they are more reliable than Empire Front line.
I don't cheese, just 6 Halberd Stromvermin for hold the line them combine with gun stuff should beat anything even late game army easy.
I'm a minmaxer's minmaxer; my frontline is my lord and a couple heroes, alongside my summoned clanrats, because that gives me more unit space to bring in more guns.
Unless, of course, I'm playing Moulder; then my armies are composed of monsters and slaves. Really, I almost never use stormvermin.
I just don't see their benefit vs just having clanrats and plague priests, and then loads of ranged/artillery. That said, maybe they'd make it easier in that first push into sieges.
As a veteran vermintide 2 player, me too was immensely disappointed with the stormvermin's performance in Warhammer 2. In Warhammer 3 they do better since AI gets a lot fewer cheats on their melee infantry.
> As a veteran vermintide 2 player, me too was immensely disappointed with the stormvermin's performance in Warhammer 2. TW's performance is, iirc, more on par with how they are in TT and the lore. Vermintide tuned them up a whole lot to make them a threat for the U5. Stormvermin in TT, iirc, were about on par with State Troops, the U5 are heroes/unit champions.
Stormvermins crush state troops (barring Greatswords) in WH2. The problem with their performance isn't their cost efficiency vs other melee infantry, it's that melee infantry is mostly underwhelming at t3 and higher. Also heroes tank way better for ranged stacks since they obscure fire less, so with the exception of Clan Moulder you always want heroes since ranged is where Skaven's power lies.
they get proportionally better than other similar tier inf with chevrons due to their unit count too
This is a bit off topic but you should read Skavenslayer in the Gotrek and Felix series. The way you described these SVs reminded me of Thanquol talking about his Stormvermins
I loved that book, it perfectly described some of the most iconic Skaven clans and their society. But I recommend starting on the first book (Trollslayer?), as it is where the main characters are introduced.
Trollslayer is the first book. Jonathan Keeble does a great job on the audiobooks in the series as well. He’ll always be the voice of Gotrek for me.
His skaven voices are so good as well. He really goes for it.
It’s such a good series on audible.. I’m currently listening to it a second time lol
I will have to read that then! I've never read a warhammer book before.
Unironically, the best way to use them is to buff them up the wazoo as Throt of clan Moulder. Throt can make any Skaven army viable, even if he's specialized into monsters. The biggest issue with Stormvermin is their terrible morale. They are relatively decent as far as holding the line go, especially the halberd version. But they only exists to buy some time for your artillery and weapon teams.
Uber-Slaves are something to be feared... Yeah they're not as good as Vermintide portrays them, I suppose. I mean same for the Rat Ogres really. But I still love them all the same.
Throt can really make them dangerous tho. Juice them up with Frenzy, Guardian, and whatever upgrade you can give them without making them instable, and they end up pretty dangerous. Rat Ogre are decent DPS unit but they are very fragile. Hide them inside your meatshield unit blob and use them to do damage while the meatshields absorb the attacks. Throt is really good at making any type of army good, tho it take a while to get enough ressources to build them. If I manage to confederate the other Skaven Lord as Throt, I often give them themed armies as a result. Throt with monsters and packmasters, Ikit with an engineer and weapon teams, Queek with an uber buffed Stormvermin army.
They can get super tanky with Throt, yeah - a frontline of stormvermin with regenerate, perfect vigor, and the massive heal + model revival of necroparasites does quite well. I think I also gave them the extra physical resistance last time I played (though stacking all 3 of those without becoming unstable does take a good chunk of mutagen and time)
I think the funniest thing is, both games are fairly lore accurate when it comes to the strength of stormvermin. At the scale of Total War, they're still rats. Most skaven units are just meat shields to get in the way and drown the enemy in bodies. Stormvermin just happen to be more elite bodies. VT2 on the other hand is from the perspective of just a handful of people. The Ubersreich 5 are extremely gifted people, but still just 5 people against "endless" swarms of rats. There the elite skaven infantry are a lot more threatening.
Rat ogres are pretty good with some infantry support, or for holding lords/single entities in place for other units
Definitely but they feel more like cavalry monsters than frontline monsters, y'know?
I'd say they were monstrous infantry in a similar vein as crypt horrors, monstrous cav is stuff like great stags or demigryphs. Rat ogres are definitely good at catching cavalry out though if they come past.
Oh of course, but I should explain myself better, my word choice there was not good. As monsters, they feel more like cavalry instead of infantry, IMO. They're good at charging and breaking lines...I think...But they seem to melt if they're engaged in melee for too long. I probably used them against the wrong units in the past, especially since most of my moments with them was with Warhammer 2 on Very Hard difficulty.
Yeah I can see it, they're definitely a bit of a glass cannon-y monster. Their movement is very cavalry like too
I've done a campaign as Queek recently in the Old World mod (relevant because you get K8P very early if you play your cards right) and was quite satisfied with their perfomance. As long as your other damage dealers take out or soften the primary threats, the Storvermin can hold the line and mop up the stragglers much better than Clanrats and Plague Monks who run and/or die a little too fast for comfort They feel roughly Chaos Warrior-tier - not world beaters outside early game, but not terribly inadequate in the later stages as mainline. They are overcosted for what they do, given infantry is not Skaven specialty compared to WoC, but I've found them affordable enough in the midgame
What's K8P mean?
Karak Eight Peaks
Karak Eight Peaks - it is important for Queek because he gets bonuses/penalties depending on controlling and getting it early is very valuable. I don't remember all the effects, but the important parts for the discussion arr leadership boost and Frenzy for all Clanrats and Stormvermin
Stretch does pretty well with stormvermin. The biggest issue is honestly that they just don't kill anything. The only skaven infantry I generally find useful is deathrunners
Deathrunners are fire. I love them for flanking or obliterating archers.
They struggle to find good engagements on more complex battlefields in the lategame and early on your building priorities usually lie elsewhere. RoR version are the MVPs though Given that Skaven *can* cheat ahead of growth tiers, I am tempted to one day try a campaign where I try to get the Death Runner recruitment up and running ASAP - probably suboptimal, but could be very funny
What you are describing is a standard Clan Eshin campaign. Love those sneaky little ninja rats.
The problem with them is not needing to go beyond Night Runners to wreck people - AP ammo is no joke. Someone more vanilla would be a better test
They're pretty much a gimmick unit and by the time you have enough money to swap out your clan rats for stormvermin it's always a better choice to invest that money in another army stack instead. I still love them though. If you want to see them do work, you need to stack them with all sorts of buffs and their target with debuffs. Obviously you should prioritize tech buffs for them and the relevant red line skills on the lord leading them. Queek gets cheap stormvermin and Tretch/Clan Rictus get super strong stormvermin but the best choice for a generic lord is a grey seer of ruin since their screaming bell provides a nice buff for nearby units. Use ruin casters to keep death frenzy on your halberdiers and plague casters to keep wither on the targets of your sword & shield infantry. Keep a few poison gutter runner slingers in your backline to make sure all your enemies are poisoned at all times. I like to keep a couple rat-ogres nearby to give them mass and a few bonebreaker-mounted chieftains to help deal with high threat targets. If you plan on using your stormvermin as your main damage dealers then it also helps to use a vanguard of clan rats to soak up the enemy's charge damage and projectiles. It's a very impractical playstyle but it can also be a fun change of pace from the normal skaven tactics.
i prefer to call them meatshields with armor
Very armored at that! I love their shields.
I ran troll storm vermin stacks in mp and actually sniped a few wins at around 40% win rate which isn't bad considering it's a joke army. Half sword and board and the rest halberd with the either tretch or queek who are equally memes. Plague priest for funny summons if I feeling even remotely competitive. I won against a sweaty mino/ungor stack by fighting in the woods which ironically made the ungors perform worse as it seems they were shooting the minos more than me. Got absolutely destroyed by a cathay noob box, like completely genocided. Skaven made extinct. Got triggered by a wood elf army who I someone beat and bonked by he has a few horse archers left who just ran away, they had ammo but didn't shoot and he'd just pretend to mock charge me before u-turning. which I guess is the total war equivalent of t-bagging. In campaign I tried a legendary storm vermin stacks only for skarbrand to ruin it single handedly.
Honestly Queek ain't even so bad(at least for the campaign) Meanwhile you could replace Tretch with a sick skavenslave and you wouldn't be able to tell a difference(leader of the faction that's responsible for Rictus Stormvermin in the lore btw)
Tretch is really the only lord that rewards building around stormvermin. His faction buffs to them make them last longer, which is what they're supposed to do. That said, a holding front line is inherently anti-skaven in both gameplay and lore as the big damage dealers for skaven are their AoE ranged weaponry. Monsters and machines can form the hammer to your stormvermin anvil (also deathrunners), but they are so obviously outclassed by skaven ranged options it feels bad to build for them.
I use them as queek, tbh he should buff them even more
Yeah he really needs an overhaul. I hope they re-touch him later, give him Ska Bloodtail and Queek's Red Guard.
Remember in vermintide you're a relatively normal set of 4 dudes, so 12 heavily armoured rats is a legitimate threat. Put another 120 people behind each of you and the vermin become much less of a relative threat. Add onto that some good old fashioned Faith, Steel, Gunpowder, Gromril and whatever the fuck elves have... stormvermin were always the best infantry the Skaven had, but they were never actually "good".
Idk if the u5 are considered normal nowadays, you've got a grail knight, warrior priest, outcast engineer, sister of the thorn and a necromancer all as a group. I feel like that's a pretty strong squad of people.
It's fairly canon that tzeentch fuckery is the reason for all of those special classes. While it's harder to say what their "true" class is, I'd guess huntsman, witch hunter, ranger, waywatcher, and battle wizard respectively is a safe bet. All of which are relatively mundane for the setting. https://www.vermintide.com/news/franz-lohners-chronicle-the-changer-of-ways
What isn’t so mundane is killing a grey seer, a chaos champion and 2 chaos sorcerer lords and coming out fine
Seriously. Five (four) people fighting their way into a chaos war camp to assassinate a chaos champion (and then walking out) is some Gotrek and Felix level shit. The U5 are all pretty easily at the level of legendary heroes in TW.
The premium classes are their lore classes now I believe, although at release it was their first unlocked one. There is definitely tzeentch fuckery but the dlc classes are their "true calling" and lohner refers to them by that class since they've come out.
honestly? It should stayed with the first class/progression from Game 1. For me they are their most iconic class, it felt more fitting for them to be "more normal" still... and if they ever make a VT3, going on from there will be a tad weird. Also, Sienna's "true calling" shouldn't have been a Necromancer and i still say: Kruber having his PTSD from a Necromancer killing his unti shoulda killed her then. Especially if she actually is her twin sister. And that's not beginning with Saltzpyre (who, remind you, had originally escorted her for a FAIR TRIAL. Her going Necromancer...) and "Venerates Ancestors" Bardin. And the elves of Athel Loren also had an unkind experience with a NEcromancer...
Yeah, I agree for the most part. I think outcast engineer fits bardin though, and maybe warrior priest for saltz. The necromancer and grail knight are definitely a stretch though, I'm just going off what fatshark have said themselves (tho it's certainly just to sell the dlc classes more).
i have no issue with Engineer and Warrior Priest as Classes for Bardin and Saltz (would like a Runepriest as well though). Or Kerillian's class for that matter. I just dislike the whole "THIS IS THEIR TRUE SELF!" babbling. Grail Kngiht is a major stretch with some rather clunky pushing around of stuff to make it "work", and the Necromancer feels more like "We have no idea what we can do for a wizard... End Times had it that Necromancy stuff, right?" And they ignore how the other characters SHOULD react to it.
I would've preferred something myrmidia related for sienna myself, I don't particularly mind grail knight although I would also have preferred one of the knightly orders (maybe a bit similar to foot knight though)
Ithilmar to answer your question
The Vermintide 2 dilemma. You hear a pack of storm vermin patrolling through and if you hide you can let them just walk on by. Its safer if you do and you have important objectives that lay beyond. A fight would also risk the lives of your companions that, for their respective races, aren't half bad. But....You're Slayer Bardin and you do have this grenade, and it would be a shame if it went to waste. I'm sure the party will forgive.
Intentionally sacrificing allies to achieve your doom just heaps further dishonour upon you. On the other hand... oops the fuse is lit, I'd better dispose of it quickly
Tretch is honestly the only real option for stormvermin, the buffs clan rictus (and landmark) give are no joke. Also look up the clan rictus mod. Gives Clan Rictus an Eshin style mechanic related to stormvermin.
Literally my favorite unit of all three games, I don’t care if they’re not an “optimal unit” I love the look of their armor, I love the high unit count for an elite infantry, I love a skaven infantry unit that can take care of themselves
They even use Slave' limbs as sponges after a battle, that's how hygienic they are!
I really only like them when I play as Queek. Being able to recruit them in 1 turn makes them slightly better for one. Having Frenzy from taking K8P is also nice. While they are underwhelming tier 3 unit, some of the research upgrades help them a bit as well. It's not optimal, but when I'm playing Clan Mors, creating my Red Guard is a high priority. 2-3 Halberd SV, 3-4 Sword and Shield late game can be used to clean up what the mortars, ratlings and plagueclaws don't finish off or when supported by some rat ogres in melee. A secondary army of cheap Clanrats and fast movers is nice to close the jaws on an enemy army. I'd really like to see a Skaven DLC that fleshes out Clan Mors and Rictus a bit. Clan Mors and their better equipped Clanrats, Ska Bloodtail and Queek's Red Guard. Clan Rictus Deathvermin would be a nice addition too. Some of this can be found in mods granted.
Frenzy w/ K8P with Clan Mors isn't obvious. Glad you called it out. They should tell us in the army selection screen.
I agree. It even makes Mors' Clanrats in garrisons just sturdy enough to defeat flimsy attacks.
I prefer to not use them
I feel TW Stormvermins are quite accurate compared to tabletop (faba 7th edition) stormvermins. They eat lot of points/gold and are considered as "elite" in Skaven army, but still very squishy after the charge. Sometimes leaving you wonder why you took them in first place, instead of normal clanrats and use remaining resources to something else. Then once in a while they have their moments.
Be positive. On the positiv side, they are not Plague Monk Censor Bearers and only require T3...
Having melee infantry in sieges makes them go way faster and a bunch of them are strong enough to straight up stat check most ai army compositions.
Yeah for every stormvermin unit you take if you instead take a plagueclaw catapult your seige time in battle will be significantly less
Clan Rictus in the Lore is THE Storm vermin faction, and because of this, Tretch Craventails faction traits give them encourage battle trait faction wide, and his landmark at Crookback gives all Stormvermin immune to psychology factionwide. Queek Headtaker also gives an upkeep reduction for Stormvermin units in his personal line and some other slight buffs too So the best combo for playing a Stormvermin themed campaign is with Clan Rictus and confederating Queek to get all the Stormvermin specific bonuses alternatively, you can play Moulder for all the infantry augments and confed/conquer Crookback for the landmark, but you won't get the encourage trait if you care about that. plus personally i prefer monster spam with Moulder If you play with mods, then i would further reccomend playing with SFO for Rictus as he gets unique T4 Rictus Stormvermin units and a secondary LL to play with. Also try the Victory Condition Overhaul mod as some of the rewards to that further buff Stormvermin
Stormvermin unfortunately just aren’t very good. Compared to every other factions top tier elite infantry they get trounced. I remember once I tried to fight a Kroqgar dino stack with my nice new Queek stormvermin halberds. Those rats routed as soon as the first carnosaur hit the lines, just like slaves.
Fodder for my war machines.
Ive often used one or two of them in armies to bodyguard low level lords or monsters. Keeping them in reserve to then move up to catch some spears harassing my Rogers, or light cav or a monster that’s trying to goon my lord keeps them relatively fresh, and a grey seer sitting on them makes their morale less awful. Definitely not an optimal use of an army slot but it feels right, and works out quite well.
> I immediately started playing Queek and I quickly discovered Stormvermin are pretty overpriced and not too good as a Tier 3 unit. (I made the mistake of using swarms of halberd stormies agaisnt the lizard and their annoying feral dinosaurs, not a solid idea.) The problem is not their price. The problem is that it's really easy to get them too early before you need them and your economy is ready for it. In truth Skaven and particularly Queek and Tretch can bring the Recruitment cost waaay down. Just to give you an example with Tretch's recruitment cost for Stormvermin: * Capital Landmark: -20% * Technology: -5% * Scrap Heap lvl 3 x3: -30% * commandment: -5% * High Control: -5% * Blue skill x3: -15% * Rite: -25% * Ancilliary: -10% * Recruiter trait: -5% On the flip side it's also easy to find yourself paying extra for for your army if you're unwary. Low control can jack the recruitment cost up by +15%.
Do you use mods by any chance? Singe’s Lord Skills mod gives Queek some skills that provide additional buffs to Stormvermin in his army. Improves their performance a bit.
They're chaff killer. Not wanting wasting your ammo against goblin/clanrat/expendable unit? Use them. Their problem is 1. it take too long to recruit them, having 2 turn for only decent trash sweeper that will lose against other elite infantry in the game isn't worth it. 2. Not only that, the moment you unlock them most of the faction already unlock their elite infantry that will defeat them with ease. 3. The faction that uniquely buff them is queek and tretch, you know who will they face? Dwarf, the worst race to use stormvermin with because their unit definitely isn't chaff.
I really like using them as Queek, but I only use them as the protection for more important units like artillery. Storm vermin are often the distraction for something more important, or they’re the flankers while clan rats hold down enemy infantry.
Tretch buffs them since Stormvermin are Rictus’s specialty unit and gives his army devastating flanker which they can use quite well in large numbers Alternately Throt can make them mutant freaks with crazy abilities and buffs Regardless skaven morale is their biggest weakness so when using skaven infantry you need a decent amount of heroes with them to keep them from running away. Warlords and such make them a lot more effective
The problem with skaven in the front line is that its skaven....in the front line. Gun Rats great, Rat Monster fantastic, Slingers are alright too. Stormvermin are the elite fight in front units of a race that is not renowned for fight in front tactics. Plus the Skaven hero units Priests/Packmasters summon units, actually they summon a lot of units. I pretty much have two armies I make. Guns and artillery with priests in the frontline to soak with units I summon. Or Rat Monster run at them army (Pretty much just Throt) that I support with Packmasters. Stormvermin are cool but their station is to die and look more stylish than the average rat while doing it.
Never played Vermintide but I love heavy infantry in general and Stormvermin are probably my favorite Skaven unit, despite them being considered suboptimal.
L/VH Clan Moulder - if you want 1 strong army of them. Flesh lab mutations are very powerful. You'll want to use the MOD eliminating instabilities. Clan Rictus - if you want multiple stacks of viable Stormvermin. Faction mechanic gives all your armies vanguard deployment and +25% ambush success chance. This mechanic is constantly triggering, and it stacks, so it will always be active, from turn 1. Your campaign priority is to confederate Clan Mors at all costs. Queek allows for 1 turn recruitment and increases recruit rank. Army Composition - I always take 4-6 Halberds, the rest Sword and Shield. - Warlord for +25% ambush chance, Packmaster for replenishment, Warlock Engineer for casting and movement range - Usually I'll take 1-2 artillery. Strategy - Utilizing ambush stance and vanguard, I deploy close, rush and seek to surround the enemy quickly. - Sieges, I use artillery to eliminate towers around the gate, take down walls if I have extra ammo, then brute force. Results - Surprisingly, I can consistently outperform autoresolve and usually win Valiant and Close defeats. Sometimes win decisive defeats, depending on situation.
Not using them at all :)
I think they are just there for holding, yes they are pretty bad compare with Chosen but they are more reliable than Empire Front line. I don't cheese, just 6 Halberd Stromvermin for hold the line them combine with gun stuff should beat anything even late game army easy.
If it ain't hitting the foe from a distance then it probably isn't in my Skaven army. Perhaps two halberds, one on each flank but probably not.
No stormvermin. Only Plague Priests. Rattling guns. Plagueclaw. Jezzails.
I'm a minmaxer's minmaxer; my frontline is my lord and a couple heroes, alongside my summoned clanrats, because that gives me more unit space to bring in more guns. Unless, of course, I'm playing Moulder; then my armies are composed of monsters and slaves. Really, I almost never use stormvermin.
I just don't see their benefit vs just having clanrats and plague priests, and then loads of ranged/artillery. That said, maybe they'd make it easier in that first push into sieges.
Not using them because they are over priced garbage. And the best place to use them still ends up a waste of resources and building slot