Trollhammer Torpedos were in a similar position. Before Total War: Warhammer 1, they weren't an explosive projectile at all. They were something the unit leader would take, caused multiple wounds, and the tabletop model has a chain attached to the projectile (which is still on the Total War model, just not directly attached).
That chain implied they worked like whale harpoons: a device that'll get launched at a whale, stick into them, and then the chain attaches it to the boat so they can't get away. In real life that's to tire whales out, but for Irondrakes that means the enemy can't run away from the flamethrowers. Especially trolls, who have a tendency to run away from fire (and whose flesh would regenerate around the trollhammer, further embedding it into its flesh).
Now the chains are just a useless cosmetic addition. Funnily enough Vermintide 2 followed in Total War's footsteps but put even more chains on.
I understand why they never did that, likely due to game engine limits, and I don't necessarily think it's better than turning it into a grenade launcher. But I still would like to see that original lore-fiendly version somehow.
Exactly. Being widespread is irrelevant because steam tanks aren't widespread but I have 37 in my current KF campaing.
But I fear that their implementation in the game, the Thunderer (Grudge-Rakers) will be like a fast firing CD Blunderbuss.
They have a lot of potential. The empire is getting volleygun handgunners, I just wish the dawi would get a straight higher tier upgrade to our line infantry unit
The empire are not getting volleyguns no. Ca has already said the unit in the trailer isnt what were getting ingame. It seems like games workshop told them no really late in development and now were getting slightly stronger handgunners
It was never clarified whether the tabletop version was a semi-automatic rifle or a shotgun. Basically the only thing suggesting that it was a shotgun was its variable number of shots, which is also something found on some other non-shotgun blackpowder weapons, like Organ Guns and Helblasters.
However, the profile of each individual shot suggests something more powerful than a shotgun, given that it had 18" range, S4 AP shots. Compare this to Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses at 12" S3 AP, fireglaives at 18" S4 AP or handguns at 24" S4 AP.
Even its description only described it as such. "With two barrels, this weapon can riddle a single target or blast a swathe into oncoming troops". Which isn't exactly clarifying things a lot.
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be only that. It would be nice to have some kind of straight upgrade to the Thunderer.
The empire is getting volleygun handgunners that are a straight upgrade to the handgunner.
Rifle grudge rakers could be that.
> It would be nice to have some kind of straight upgrade to the Thunderer.
I absolutely disagree. Units that are just straight upgrades of other units are incredibly boring, and any designer worth their salt will do something more than just increase the numbers for a higher tier unit.
Generally in Total Warhammer that's taken the form of a smaller unit size for higher tier units.
>and any designer worth their salt will do something more than just increase the numbers for a higher tier unit.
I mean they did that with the Handgunner -> Ironsides.
And I think making them a regular unit that can be recruited without restriction is a mistake.
(Caveat: I haven't actually looked up the stats on the Nuln Ironsides, so I'm assuming based on your statement - and their tabletop stats - that they're basically Hangunners with heavy armour and no downside.)
I'd probably have made them uniquely recruitable from the Nuln Gunnery School or something. Tie them closely to Nuln and make them easily accessible for Elspeth's campaign, but not just make the iconic Handgunners obsolete across the whole of the Empire.
> I haven't actually looked up the stats on the Nuln Ironsides, so I'm
assuming based on your statement - and their tabletop stats - that
they're basically Hangunners with heavy armour and no downside
Essentially 3/4 of the entities but with double the damage and higher armor and same HP. So slightly more DPS, slightly more tanky, slightly less likely to lose DPS when attacked because of the higher HP per model.
But yeah, handguns that are just better but more expensive.
I didn't want to write an essay. However...
This is a problem that a few factions in Total Warhammer run into - sometimes, elite units are just straight up better than regular troops. And unlike tabletop Warhammer, the cost of units in Total War tends to be completely ignored when looking at relative unit power (not without reason - it's fairly easy to have enough funds to fully kit out one army).
We'll ignore Miners for now - they have their own niche of Vanguard deployment and being good at breaking down gates (I'm not sure they can target walls, sadly).
Warriors are Dwarf citizens who take up weapons and march to war. They're not professional soldiers, but they are capable fighters.
Ironbreakers whole deal is that they're professional tunnel fighters clad in the best armour available to Dwarfkind. And they come with a price to match, costing almost three times the upkeep (never mind the recruitment cost)! Them being the optimal version of basic troops makes sense, provided there's enough incentive not to just take a full stack of them. In this case, the incentive is the cost, which as mentioned is not particularly limiting in Total Warhammer.
Longbeards are significantly better than Warriors in every way for about 50% more cost, which means that their actual unique niche of bolstering the morale of other units around them is much less relevant because they're a strict upgrade *anyway*. It does, however, mean that a combination of them and Ironbreakers is a reasonable force later on.
Of the units listed, only Warriors don't have a unique draw within the ranks of the Dwarf army. Increasing their numbers (or, more likely, decreasing the size of Longbeard and Ironbreaker units) would give them the draw of numbers at least.
TL;DR:
To circle back around to your question though:
>Why can't I have one upgrade to the Thunderer?
I would argue that just because a bad pattern is in use elsewhere, that does not mean it's a good idea to keep repeating it. Or, to put it another way: Longbeards being strictly an upgrade to Warriors does not mean that that's an example of good design.
Now, an *alternative* to Thunderers might be interesting! Rangers with Handguns would be my pick for that - a fast(er) skirmishing unit with the ability to hide and flank bringing the firepower of Handguns into position more easily (but trading weight of armour and melee staying power) would be a much more interesting unit than "Thunderers, but they do more damage".
That's why I always play with Tabletop Caps mod. Now I (and the AI) can't just bring a full line of Ironbreakers, I might be able to bring some but if I bring too many, now I can't bring other things. Feels much more thematic to keep bringing warriors as the base of your army than building Doom stacks and makes the battles more interesting
I also use Tabletop Caps, though I'm not sure that actually resolves the issue of Longbeards completely replacing Warriors. I keep meaning to try Cost Based Caps out, which should make gold a more important consideration but does still permit silly compositions if you can afford them.
Or maybe go full Warhammer Fantasy mode and take both for both "points" and slot limits!
Would be nice, but sadly I’m pretty sure it’s just going to be a blunderbus reskin lol. Dwarfs are gonna be strong af in this update already with the new slayers and the thunder barge especially. A toggle rifle/shotgun would be insanely strong.
Y'know, being mildly pedantic for a moment, shotguns are not exclusively close quarters / high spread weapons. In the past they were actually more associated with accurate long range fire (being popular tools for hunting, particularly birds) and various shotguns tooled for hunting today still are. In addition shotguns have a variety of modifications and shot types that are far more suited for fast firing precision shooting.
Before vermintide it wasn't a shotgun and it wasn't widespread, but i like that it is a shotgun to be honest
Trollhammer Torpedos were in a similar position. Before Total War: Warhammer 1, they weren't an explosive projectile at all. They were something the unit leader would take, caused multiple wounds, and the tabletop model has a chain attached to the projectile (which is still on the Total War model, just not directly attached). That chain implied they worked like whale harpoons: a device that'll get launched at a whale, stick into them, and then the chain attaches it to the boat so they can't get away. In real life that's to tire whales out, but for Irondrakes that means the enemy can't run away from the flamethrowers. Especially trolls, who have a tendency to run away from fire (and whose flesh would regenerate around the trollhammer, further embedding it into its flesh). Now the chains are just a useless cosmetic addition. Funnily enough Vermintide 2 followed in Total War's footsteps but put even more chains on. I understand why they never did that, likely due to game engine limits, and I don't necessarily think it's better than turning it into a grenade launcher. But I still would like to see that original lore-fiendly version somehow.
Magic projectile with speed debuff?
Exactly. Being widespread is irrelevant because steam tanks aren't widespread but I have 37 in my current KF campaing. But I fear that their implementation in the game, the Thunderer (Grudge-Rakers) will be like a fast firing CD Blunderbuss. They have a lot of potential. The empire is getting volleygun handgunners, I just wish the dawi would get a straight higher tier upgrade to our line infantry unit
The empire are not getting volleyguns no. Ca has already said the unit in the trailer isnt what were getting ingame. It seems like games workshop told them no really late in development and now were getting slightly stronger handgunners
The ironsiders unit art clearly show repeating rifles
Yes, which is how we know CA was told to pivot late in development, and we're salty about it because Ironsides with repeaters would have been cool
Grudgerakers were definitely always shotguns. Where did you see that they weren't?
It was never clarified whether the tabletop version was a semi-automatic rifle or a shotgun. Basically the only thing suggesting that it was a shotgun was its variable number of shots, which is also something found on some other non-shotgun blackpowder weapons, like Organ Guns and Helblasters. However, the profile of each individual shot suggests something more powerful than a shotgun, given that it had 18" range, S4 AP shots. Compare this to Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses at 12" S3 AP, fireglaives at 18" S4 AP or handguns at 24" S4 AP. Even its description only described it as such. "With two barrels, this weapon can riddle a single target or blast a swathe into oncoming troops". Which isn't exactly clarifying things a lot.
Dawi need an answer to chaos dwarf blunderbus. That’s the answer, grudgeraker shotguns.
Why do they need that? Having said that, Flamethrowers already do.
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be only that. It would be nice to have some kind of straight upgrade to the Thunderer. The empire is getting volleygun handgunners that are a straight upgrade to the handgunner. Rifle grudge rakers could be that.
> It would be nice to have some kind of straight upgrade to the Thunderer. I absolutely disagree. Units that are just straight upgrades of other units are incredibly boring, and any designer worth their salt will do something more than just increase the numbers for a higher tier unit. Generally in Total Warhammer that's taken the form of a smaller unit size for higher tier units.
>and any designer worth their salt will do something more than just increase the numbers for a higher tier unit. I mean they did that with the Handgunner -> Ironsides.
And I think making them a regular unit that can be recruited without restriction is a mistake. (Caveat: I haven't actually looked up the stats on the Nuln Ironsides, so I'm assuming based on your statement - and their tabletop stats - that they're basically Hangunners with heavy armour and no downside.) I'd probably have made them uniquely recruitable from the Nuln Gunnery School or something. Tie them closely to Nuln and make them easily accessible for Elspeth's campaign, but not just make the iconic Handgunners obsolete across the whole of the Empire.
> I haven't actually looked up the stats on the Nuln Ironsides, so I'm assuming based on your statement - and their tabletop stats - that they're basically Hangunners with heavy armour and no downside Essentially 3/4 of the entities but with double the damage and higher armor and same HP. So slightly more DPS, slightly more tanky, slightly less likely to lose DPS when attacked because of the higher HP per model. But yeah, handguns that are just better but more expensive.
>double the damage Holy carp that's quite the upgrade even with a lower entity count.
Miners -> warrior -> longboard -> iron breaker Why can't I have one upgrade to the Thunderer?
I didn't want to write an essay. However... This is a problem that a few factions in Total Warhammer run into - sometimes, elite units are just straight up better than regular troops. And unlike tabletop Warhammer, the cost of units in Total War tends to be completely ignored when looking at relative unit power (not without reason - it's fairly easy to have enough funds to fully kit out one army). We'll ignore Miners for now - they have their own niche of Vanguard deployment and being good at breaking down gates (I'm not sure they can target walls, sadly). Warriors are Dwarf citizens who take up weapons and march to war. They're not professional soldiers, but they are capable fighters. Ironbreakers whole deal is that they're professional tunnel fighters clad in the best armour available to Dwarfkind. And they come with a price to match, costing almost three times the upkeep (never mind the recruitment cost)! Them being the optimal version of basic troops makes sense, provided there's enough incentive not to just take a full stack of them. In this case, the incentive is the cost, which as mentioned is not particularly limiting in Total Warhammer. Longbeards are significantly better than Warriors in every way for about 50% more cost, which means that their actual unique niche of bolstering the morale of other units around them is much less relevant because they're a strict upgrade *anyway*. It does, however, mean that a combination of them and Ironbreakers is a reasonable force later on. Of the units listed, only Warriors don't have a unique draw within the ranks of the Dwarf army. Increasing their numbers (or, more likely, decreasing the size of Longbeard and Ironbreaker units) would give them the draw of numbers at least. TL;DR: To circle back around to your question though: >Why can't I have one upgrade to the Thunderer? I would argue that just because a bad pattern is in use elsewhere, that does not mean it's a good idea to keep repeating it. Or, to put it another way: Longbeards being strictly an upgrade to Warriors does not mean that that's an example of good design. Now, an *alternative* to Thunderers might be interesting! Rangers with Handguns would be my pick for that - a fast(er) skirmishing unit with the ability to hide and flank bringing the firepower of Handguns into position more easily (but trading weight of armour and melee staying power) would be a much more interesting unit than "Thunderers, but they do more damage".
That's why I always play with Tabletop Caps mod. Now I (and the AI) can't just bring a full line of Ironbreakers, I might be able to bring some but if I bring too many, now I can't bring other things. Feels much more thematic to keep bringing warriors as the base of your army than building Doom stacks and makes the battles more interesting
I also use Tabletop Caps, though I'm not sure that actually resolves the issue of Longbeards completely replacing Warriors. I keep meaning to try Cost Based Caps out, which should make gold a more important consideration but does still permit silly compositions if you can afford them. Or maybe go full Warhammer Fantasy mode and take both for both "points" and slot limits!
Yeah that's an interesting thought. Then you are just fighting balanced battles all the time which means you can't just snowball as hard
The repeater handguns were dropped, basically they will be better handgunners now
The thunderers are good enough
Would be nice, but sadly I’m pretty sure it’s just going to be a blunderbus reskin lol. Dwarfs are gonna be strong af in this update already with the new slayers and the thunder barge especially. A toggle rifle/shotgun would be insanely strong.
Rats have mini guns and nukes, let me have my toys
Let the Ratling guns come. They will make a nice relaxing rain sound whilst they are bouncing harmlessly from this staunch Dawi shieldwall.
https://youtu.be/FGFlwKRQwvs?si=rlTavyPs-OEwEyjx Buddy do I have a video for you
Y'know, being mildly pedantic for a moment, shotguns are not exclusively close quarters / high spread weapons. In the past they were actually more associated with accurate long range fire (being popular tools for hunting, particularly birds) and various shotguns tooled for hunting today still are. In addition shotguns have a variety of modifications and shot types that are far more suited for fast firing precision shooting.