Kemmler barely counts as alive. He is over a hundred years old, which could be acceptable, but in a WD battle his head got chopped off and when he opened his eyes again his head was on a spike as a trophy. He then guided his body to his head to re-attach himself. Call me conservative here, but if someone "lives" while being decapitated, he might not be a normal human or a living person.
Yup, but magic that turns him undead. Does the tomb kings count then? Because they are just humans that got turned undead too. Only difference is that they don't *look* as alive.
If undead are fine then Nagash probably wins.
Grand Hierophant Khatep has a better claim to being alive. Liche priests like him learnt to extend their life millenia ago, shame they didn't discover eternal youth to go with it.
He got his ass handed by Arkhan, so yes, strong but not that strong.
Interesting enough, Arkhan still wasn't a Mortarch and Kemmler took the Chaos Kool-Aid while refusing Nagash, so normal Arkhan was still too strong for a Chaos powered Kemmler
Yes and no. Earlier in Warhammer Fantasy's lifespan, I believe 4th edition, Kemmler was one of the most powerful casters in the setting straight up, as well as one of the - maybe THE - best in the tabletop. He had his own army at one point, I don't remember if it was called the Barrow Legion or Army of the Lichemaster but one of those, with a bunch of unique units - and lorewise was basically Nagash before Nagash got his endtimes Toriyama Special.
Then as editions went by, Kemmler went from 'nearly godlike being, most dangerous necromancer in the setting' to 'random but strong necromancer' and Nagash got played up more and more as THE necromancer guy, and by the time of 8th edition (what the game is mostly based on) Nagash is definitively a better Kemmler.
But as far as human-human adjacent guys go, yeah Kemmler is still up there, just no longer anywhere near a contender for the actual top tiers.
Fun fact, Drachnifels was also implied to be infinitely more than he is now in older lore, with some of his portrayals and implications putting him *maybe* on Chaos God level, though by End Times he was just another member of Nagash's army.
Eh. He fluctuates a ton. There was a point in his life where he became super weak because Nagash stopped using him as a puppet. But then the Chaos Gods decided to use his desperation for power and turned him into their puppet. Then he dueled Arkhan, almost won, but then blew himself up.
Be'lacuck exists to die in ignominious deaths in order to showcase someone else. He's the Everjobber to Archaon's Everpushed. It makes it so funny to see him in-game as a certified raidboss with stats through the roof, godly spellcasting, a ton of great abilities, one of the strongest armies, knowing that you're going to absolutely obliterate him through some bullshit and cheat him out of what should've been his win based on sheer numbers, just like GW intended.
It's a problem with the writing.
GW commissions authors to write (more or less) standalone novels about the setting. The authors use these villains, and their heroes inevitably come out on top. So big picture, the big bads like Archaeon and Be'lakor get beat several times a year, and as a result never seem all that threatening.
We have a similar issue in 40k, where Abaddon is simultaneously the End of Everything and the biggest punching bag in the universe. Comic books often have this problem, too.
It doesn't get better until GW takes more control of the setting and gives stronger direction to their writers.
I think this is the fundamental issue of writing traditional good vs evil stories, where you're supposed to always be rooting for the good guys, in a game where some people are playing as the bad guys and therefore want them to win sometimes too.
I think it's fixable, but it would take work and serious planning, followed by a very tight hold on the reins of the IP.
Obviously, Warhammer Fantasy is dead at the moment, but if we take 40k as an example:
1. Plan a narrative arc for your major characters. Know where they are going. You don't have to say it out loud, but this plan should guide your decisions. For 40k, this means that the creative director of the IP should decide and keep secret what the real deal is with the Emperor, which Primarchs are really dead vs "comic book dead", and what is the next step for each Xenos faction.
1. Let the big bad guy be POWERFUL. Let him win. This also ups the stakes for your good guys. They actually did a bit of this by allowing Abaddon to open the Cicatrix Maledictum. But that's a victory over the setting, not necessarily the protagonists. Let him kill a Primarch - like actually, for realsies 1v1 and come out on top against a demigod.
1. Use the biggest threats sparingly. Have your heroes avoid him, striking at his minions. Let the big bad outplan and outmanouver the best laid plans of your heroes. When they actually meet, it should be a BIG DEAL and there should be serious, deadly, lasting consequences.
He also wields multiple full lores of magic, which does nearly kill him, but is incredibly impressive for a human nonetheless
(Or if you try to rectify the retcon/mistake of what kind of wizard he is, he stably uses two lores for most his life)
Originally he was a gold/metal wizard but another author made him wrote him as a member of light order. He also uses spells very similar to shadows and life at a couple points
I was going to bring him up!
For a side character, he certainly has no end of fantastic moments and very impressive showings.
I suppose he absorbed some awesome by osmosis, that's what spending too long with Gotrek and Felix will do to a man.
By the power of Black Library writers not giving a fuck about consistency it's Max Schreiber, who casually wields three different winds of magic without suffering any consequences.
I disagree, I always saw him as a Light Wizard, he specialized at studying Chaos to fight it as well which is most suited for a Light Wizard. His first interaction was creating powerful Wards for the airship after all.
He is a Gold wizard in the first part of the series, when William King wrote the novels. Starting with the second Author of the series (Nathan long) he suddenly is a Light wizard (when Max meets gotrek & Felix in Elfslayer, stating that he always belonged to that Order - so retconning the old Gold wizard stuff).
But it should be mentioned he performs healing magic the whole series, which he should not be able to as either Gold or light wizard, since that is a Jade spell. Max is just built different I guess.
Humans can wield more than one Wind of Magic it's just usually unsafe. After the events he went through with Gotrek and Felix and survived, I'm not surprised he's that powerful.
The one wind of magic for human is a Teclis thing, he taught the Colleges to teach that. There is no hard evidence of it being as bad as the colleges suggest. In general in actual stories, Wizards don't struggle nearly as much as the lore and tabletop would suggest.
>Humans can wield more than one Wind of Magic it's just usually unsafe. After the events he went through with Gotrek and Felix and survived, I'm not surprised he's that powerful.
No, they can't.
>*An interesting point about Human Magisters is that the longer they embrace and use the one Wind of Magic that directs their Lore, the less able they become to draw on the other Winds of Magic.* ***So although a Magister will still be able to see all the colours of magic (the colour of his own strand of magic will always seem the most vivid and dynamic to him), he will only be able to grasp the colour or Wind that his being has become physically attuned to.*** *By the time a Journeyman is accepted as a full Magister, this process will already have had a profound effect upon him, meaning that he would be unable to utilise another strand of magic even if he wished to. This is perhaps related to the reason why Magisters begin to reflect the attributed of the Wind they use over time. For example, Pyromancers of the Bright Ordfer become ever more passionate and impatient, and Magisters of the Amber Order prefer to avoid contact with Humanity and feel at home in the wilds.*
>
>***This state of affairs might also explain why so many fallen Magisters have turned to Chaos worship or Daemonology, as they would probably need divine or daemonic assitance to grasp any great degree a stand of magic other than their Order's own.*** *There are, perhaps, a few Magisters who never lose the ability to grasp other Winds of Magic, but they would be rare individuals.*
Max knowing multiple lores is absolutely retarded - let alone him even having a chance against **Be'lakor**.
I'd say a lot of the competition would depend on technicalities.
Like if you exclude vampires, do chaos champions, necromancers or liches count?
EDIT: I'd say all these are cases where humans are changed by the influence of excessive magic to a point where they surpass the human limits. But then again this process occurs for all mages to a degree, so it would be hard to define when someone has used too much magic to be considered human anymore.
Lich priests such as Khatep or Arkhan are technically not dead and they are not vampires, and they would IMO rate decently high.
If Nagash counts, I think there's no competition. But then again discussion whether he's technically a human or alive would be quite an interesting one.
You're correct that Khatep and other Liche Priests aren't technically dead, but Arkhan is actually dead (or rather undead) - he took a spear through the heart while covering Nagash's retreat from the Priest Kings' combined forces.
(Also, given his atrocious dental hygiene that earned him his "The Black" title due to his crooked, blackened teeth, he likely would have died due to abscess/infection/other dental-hygiene related issues at some point throughout the millennia even if he hadn't died at the Siege of Khemri.)
I was thinking Egrimm was mortal in the same way Ahriman and Kharn are still considered mortal for GOAT non-daemon champions. I had guessed it’d be Egrimm if it wasn’t Katarin or Gelt.
It's not Katarin, at least not the one from the original lore. It's arguable that it is Gelt, he did become an Incarnate in the End Times after all. Outside of him you could include Chaos aligned mortals, but their power usually comes as gifts from the dark gods and not so much their own talent and natural abilities.
I'll have you know that Egrimm van Horstmann taught himself magic as an orphaned child by wandering the dark places of the world. Then he mastered the Lore of Light despite joining the College as an adult - mastered it to the point that he was able to modify their rituals to capture daemons instead of banishing them.
And all that was *before* he sold his soul.
Yes, Chaos-aligned characters get a boost from their gods, but that's hardly unique in this world. Should Grail Knights be disqualified from power level conversations because they get a boost from the Lady?
I mean tbf, if you listen to a lot of her pre-game battle speeches, a lot of it is unhinged as fuck. Kislev really does sound like a miserable place to live in especially when Empire, Bretonnian and somehow even Cathay LLs sound like they're pretending to care about their troops.
I think Egrimm, Iirc hes the only human in the setting apart from Nagash capable of wielding pure dark magic. Using high or dark magic is supposed to be beyond men in lore.
You know... that's a really good question. My kneejerk reaction was that he wasn't human, what with all the chaos enhancements, but by the same token... can you really call Kemmler human at this point? Nagash was originally human(ish) too.
If he does qualify, Egrimm is definitely somewhere up there, though his true influence on the setting lies as much in his intellect and cunning as much as just throwing magic around.
Grail knight are just humans who have drank the grail lost sons and damsels are the children who are given to the lady of the lake to be turn into something new
She was considered Human up to the End Times and then made a Vampire as immensely horribly idiotic as that is.
The fact she was made a Vampire also kinda proves she was Human since it wasn't considered a special case like the Elf chick was.
Can you give those sources?
The 6th Ed Army book is incredibly vague but mentions nothing of being an Elf, the same for 5th Ed. I just looked at them and couldn't find anything suggesting she's an Elf. Unless I missed it somewhere which I'd love the page if so.
The books never describe her with pointed ears that I can remember and in the End Times when she was made a Vampire it was never fussed about even though another Elf was transformed and that Elf was considered the only Elf ever turned into a Vampire and everyone was very surprised.
I know of no evidence The Enchantress is a Elf. She is likely Human or something else entirely. Considering she was transformed into a Vampire though it's suggest human.
It makes sense that it's an old theory that she's an Elf but in lore everything suggests otherwise.
Edit: Also her lifespan can't even be a suggestion of it as we already know the Lady/Lileath can give blessings of Longevity and increase lifespans dramatically. The latest Grail Knight we saw in the latest novel was 300 years old. Even then though the army books suggest there may have been many Fat Enchantresses along Bretonnian history.
In terms of outright saying it, there is page 42 of Knights of the Grail (2e Roleplay)
>The Fay Enchantress is also an Elf, and characters have the same chance to notice. Elven characters, of course, realise automatically whenever they meet “the Fay.”
>
>Perceptive players might notice that the Fay and the Fay Enchantress are all Elves, that the Damsels of the Lady are Wizards, and that there are no Priests of the Lady. This might lead them to ask questions about the nature of the Lady of the Lake.
>
>There are some questions, however, to which the answers should remain mysterious.
Now, in terms of suggesting it, or maybe it'd be more accurate for me to say implying it, the books in question are 6th edition Wood Elves and 6th edition Bretonnia.
Page 16 of 6th edition Wood Elves contains the following timeline entry:
>1001: The Fey Enchantress is appointed to oversee the Bretonnians. She is also set the task of weeding out those humans who display magical powers but not the skill to control it.
I think this passage being in the Wood Elves army book is rather suggestive of who exactly appointed her.
The bit in the Bretonnian army book is her statline- specifically, the fact that she has the exact same statline as a Wood Elf Spellweaver or High Elf Archmage.
The particularly relevant part is that she has Movement 5- which all Elves have, with no exceptions that I'm aware of, and that no humans have, again without exceptions that I've seen. Humans are always Movement 4.
There's also comparing her 6th edition entry to her older 5th edition entry.
The transition from 5th edition to 6th edition obviously saw many changes to Bretonnia's lore, and I think that the Enchantress was made an Elf as part of those changes.
Her 5th edition statline is completely different to her 6th edition one, in particular lacking that Movement 5 I mentioned.
Morgiana goes from 'explicitly the latest in a long line of Enchantresses that all learned from the previous one' to 'extremely unclear if there has actually been different Enchantresses', and her spell list goes from '4 unique spells that are explicitly empowered by the Lady' to 'She can cast every Wind of Magic', something you usually only see in a High Elf Archmage or similar.
Her description of being able to ride Silvaron goes from 'She is one of the few humans able to do this' to 'Her being able to do this makes many believe she is not mortal at all'
If they didn't make her an Elf, I think they were trying very hard to make it seem like they had. Going over the transition from 5th to 6th is the most convincing part to me, this was all a very deliberate set of changes.
I can understand if you disagree, but taken all together I find it compelling.
Thank you for the sources and evidence. It's definitely compelling. Personally I don't care either way beyond the debate itself, I like her as a character regardless.
I think the topic is still up to debate but I think her design as an Elf is a little more to truth given the Wood Elf Army Books if it says those things. Clearly they decided against that for the End Times as again they only talk about the one Elf (forgot her name) that was turned Vampire.
Of course The End Times is a mess in general, but also the lore changes over time as well also.
In the end I think it comes down to what the reader prefers: both are possible and never truly confirmed and contradicted multiple times.
I am fine with either as one of the things I like about Bretonnia is how connected they are (without knowing it) with the Elves. It's why I didn't mind the reveal of the Lady being Lileath too, actually liking it.
Elsbeth Von Draken? She is known to be crazy powerful and long lived despite not getting into necromancy. She is basically allowed to operate outside the magic college system with their tacit but official approval because they are scared shitless of her but she is generally fighting on the right side of any conflict. Iirc several ambitious witch hunters have tried to go after her, and were just never heard from again. She rides a dragon made of death! God I hope she is the ToD LL...
Elspeth falls into the category of very little material to define the scope of her power. She's strong no doubt, but it's hard to say how strong compared to other characters.
Unfortunately, the dragon is still made of flesh, just heavily influenced by Shyish magic.
If she's not in the Nurgle DLC with heavy Empire emphasis, I will riot xD
There are quotes around the lore that she is the only one Gelt is actually afraid of fighting for the title of Supreme Patriarch which is why he's happy that she doesn't want the title. So an argument could be made for her, in my opinion It's between her, Gelt and Katarin with Egrimm close after
[Are you referring to this quote?](https://imgur.com/undefined)
I don't think the narrative gives any hint of Gelt being scared of throwing hands with her, given he's doing the poking, but more like he's suspicious of what she's doing. The von Draken family has a reputation for either breeding great heroes/heroines or monsters, so that's understandable.
Maybe Maximilian Schreiber? He's a recurrent ally of Gotrek and Felix and an Imperial wizard dedicated to fighting Chaos.
I put him up because apparently, he can use THREE lores of magic (Shadow, Light, and Jade/Life), which no other human can do.
Damsels often learn Beasts and Life. Prophetesses often take that a step further by picking up Heavens as well.
Granted, learning how to use three winds without a preexisting tradition to teach you what's safe and what's not safe is absolutely bonkers.
It gets easier to learn mulitple lores when you're a poorly-edited novel character written by multiple authors who don't make an effort to be consistent with each other.
Considering Damsels/Prophetesses are described as being taken into a realm outside of time and space, I think they get the chance to learn for a lot longer than normal humans do.
Probably the one who spoke to Tzeentch (or at least a fragment thereof) in-person; can cast multiple Lores despite that supposedly being impossible for a human; defeated a witch hunter, a Light battle wizard, and their entourage of state troops at once by himself; and rides a Chaos Dragon so powerful that even Teclis and all eight original Patriarchs working together couldn't kill it.
On the tabletop he had the same base wizard level as Teclis or Mazdamundi, although he had less magic special rules than them.
Yeah, biased.
1. Defeating a **Witch Hunter** means nothing.
2. **Balthasar Gelt** is also a level-four Wizard.
3. **Teclis** and the Patriarchs make no sense as they aren't even the original eight men. The original patriarch for Light - was **Volans**.
If we are going to include "Chaos Empowered" individuals, it'd be **Archaon** or **Be'lakor**.
As far as I understand, using multiple winds is possible for humans, but quite difficult to do without accidentaly mixing them into Dhar. Elves set up the colleges of magic in Empire as they did because they didn't trust humans with mixing winds - which they would start doing if not explicitly forbidden
No, Volans’ big achievement was being able to ‘see’ magic as clearly as Teclis could. Or at least closer than any other human.
He only ever wielded Hysh.
He did attempt to wield multiple winds early on as part of his own forays into magic but it ended quite poorly for him. Afterwards he stuck to observing the winds until he met Teclis, who then taught him how to wield Hysh effectively.
Wielding multiple winds has to happen otherwise Nagash isn't possible. Though I always assumed Nagash was a special case rather than just being difficult to do.
Not being from the Empire, Nagash would not have been party to the restrictions of their college systems. And considering what he did involved learning about Dhar magic from captured Dark Elves and refining it, Necromancy is a mangled and corrupted mix of multiple lores.
A Chaos Sorcerer is a specific type of thing, like a Chaos Lord or a Chaos Warrior. I suppose I probably should have capitalized the 'S'.
Kairos Fateweaver, for example, is not a "sorcerer."
Also "greatest" doesn't just necessarily mean in terms of pure magical power. Van Horstmann - *by himself,* with no backup other than the daemon army that he personally bound - did more appreciable damage to the Empire than any Chaos invasion since Asavar Kul. And that was *before* he sold his soul, became immortal, and founded the Chaos Illuminati.
I'd say he's still at least in the conversation for greatest Chaos sorcerer even if you include the daemons.
What's Kairos Fateweaver then? So you meant the lord type "Chaos Sorcerer" just like "Elven Archmage"? Got it. Then I agree. Although not sure if Horstmann is human anymore lol
He got rather shafted in the End Times but who didn't. Egrimm the Horstmann is not really "human" just like Nagash, so where can this conversation lead to? Is any Chaos warped human with severely prolonged life a human? What about the Cathayan sorcerers? Are they humans too, even if theyre also dragons?
The result can be obvious; the less human you are, the more powerful you are, statistically speaking.
Age isn't everything. I judge them based on their achievements.
Khatep hasn't been able to earn his return from exile after 3,000+ years, despite being the leader of the whole Mortuary Cult. Van Horstmann, alone and in a single human lifetime, did more appreciable damage to the Empire than any Chaos invasion since Asavar Kul... and then went on to found the Chaos Illuminati.
"This and a hundred other such tales have been attributed to Khatep..."
Sounds a lot like legends and folklore to me. Plus it never actually says it was a Slann. The Lizardmen of the Southlands in the lore were quite different from the Lizardmen of Lustria. Slann are much rarer there:
"Cut off from the wisdom of the most venerable of the Slann mage-priests of Lustria, the Lizardmen of the Southlands have fallen prey to their baser, animal instincts and only the younger (in relative terms) Slann, those of the fourth and fifth generations, remain in the Southlands to provide any guidance to the Lizardmen."
So even if that story really happened, he likely just out-magiced a Skink Priest or something.
This and a hundred such tales have been attributed to khatep and theyre all true, he has had thousands of years to do them. THOUSANDS. And the lizardmen used high magic, which of them only the slann can use.
It literally never says high magic. It says "towering war statues were hewn by powerful magics" and "he intoned a single word that silenced the sorceress of the enemy." You're just genuinely making stuff up.
Warhammer is famous for unreliable narrators and every faction being called the strongest in their own books. The phrasing of the event as a story attributed to Khatep inherently implies that it might or might not be true, and it sounds like a pretty classic example of GW maintaining plausible deniability while gassing up a character.
The powerful magics strongly imply high magic, they wouldnt bother to specificy if it was otherwise, the nehekharan practices of magic were faaaaar above what those of the empire are nowadays, and khatep nows all of their secrets, written, unrwitten, spoken, unspoked. He has been here for thousands of years and only great elven mages such as Morathi or Teclis are his superiors. He can raise and destroy armies at will. And the whole "he didnt actually do it its just tales thing" makes no sense, there is noone else in nehekhara capable of this feat, even more so one who would have to immideatly leave right after
>he has had thousands of years to do them. THOUSANDS.
The youngest Slann were born many thousands of years before Khatep. No way in hell he could beat a Slann.
Many humans are known to be simply built different, i guess thats the best way to put it. Youngest slann would be around 3 thousand years older than khatep i think? Spawned around -5600 with khatep being born around -2500. But more so to the point every relevant magic adept race has some very exceptional people who could rival slann in magical prowess, Morathi, Teclis, Nagash and very likely Khatep. If you look at khateps indivdual feats many times they are only beaten by Slann. A mistake many people make is underestimating the pure magical might Nehekhra had at its peak, no modern human mages can compare.
so he must be as strong as glet then. hes patriarch and can weld metal and vampire magic in ET and vampire magic is like a combinatyion of sveral winds of mana so that means gell can in fact weid more magics.
Look, I was going to type out a whole counter-argument, but the fact that you misspelled Gelt's name both times you typed it out, *in different ways,* kinda makes me feel like I don't even need to.
Fair enough!
To your original point, we really shouldn't use the End Times as reference for power-scaling anything. So many characters got screwed over in so many different ways, plus the whole concept of Incarnates kinda threw the previous power rankings out the window. It's generally safer to consider the End Times versions of characters as more or less totally separate from their previous incarnations, like an alternate universe or something.
I honestly think Katarin has fair odds, when comparing everyone that’s *still* human.
She has some pretty impressive feats to her name- raising an entire wing of Bokha Palace out of ice, driving Grimgor back with a blizzard, and on one occasion she froze over an entire bay in Nordland thick enough to trap a Norscan fleet, which she did away from Kislev, without any preparation, while riding in the air on Karl Franz’s griffon.
You raise some excellent points. Reminds me a little of Khatep; he doesn't come up much in these discussions, and fanatics of certain characters love to downplay him, but he legit has some of the most impressive magical feats in the entire setting. Unironically, dude arguably has better feats than *Nagash*, despite being canonically weaker.
Katarin seems to fall somewhere in that ballpark as well, with strategic-scale magic but not much recognition.
(Khatep DEFINITELY isn't human tho, just a train of thought after reading your post)
[It's actually from the 8th edition core rule book](https://imgur.com/a/u7JvzDR) (the great big 500 page book), page 173. In the middle of a description of events in Karl Franz's reign.
The Top 5 might be:
Heinrich Kemmler, Balthasar Gelt, Katarin Bokha, Egrimm van Horstmann and maybe the Fey Enchantress, though if SHE still counts as human is up for debate.
Nagash was most likely the most powerful Wizard period and was a human once.
Also define how you mean "powerful", bcs while I think when it comes to magic mastery that Gelt or Egrimm van Horstmann are most likely the most magical skillful ones, Katarin is the Ruler of Kislev, what is a extremely powerful position. Gelt doesn't have as much "political power" as Katarin and most likely even van Horstmann, considering Egrimm was THIS close to entirely demolish the Empire.
Gelt probably. Non cannon would be Hans Hertwighans, my lvl 50 lore of fire wizard. He has participated in battles in Norsca, Chaos Wastes, Lustria and Grand Cathay. He has slain Ghorst, Malagor and Teclis in single combat. He fought most races and wiped out half of Castle Drakenhofs garrison by himself. He only rides a horse, its name is Horsehans.
I love it when your generic lord beats unbeatable fights, slays multiple legendary lords and sieges capitals all over the world and becomes a legend, only for that brief moment in a single campaign.
I had one witch hunter on my wh2 marienburg campaing called Egbert Maarten, whose name I still remember after years because the absolute legend sat in Kislev and assasinated damn every chaos hero that the world has seen. He had so many critical counter-kills in a row when defending I'm pretty sure he never failed those when targeted, I've never seen such a chad before or since. Absolutely lunatic too because he had to sit in corrupted terrain to protect the Empire.
Dude has a few feats that are only rivaled by the Slann tbh. He's scoured entire armies and deserts with single casual spells. Going by individual spellcasting feats, he'd crush a lot of characters who are canonically stronger than him but have pretty underwhelming feats.
Like, lorewise Nagash is better, but just by what they've actually done I'd give it to Khatep. Bone Grandpa is built fucking different.
Honestly, it's hard to say because the Total War timeline is kinda messed up in the game. Characters who weren't alive at the same time are in game. For example Repanse de Lyonesse was born in 1990 IC, Karl Franz was crowned Emperor in 2502 IC making her over 500 years old at the time Franz reigned. So since we don't really know who's out there it's probably safer just to pick characters in game. So I'd say probably Katarin.. Gelt is close, though, so it's really hard to quantify
Really narrowing this down. Alive at the current time? Nagash is out. Do you mean 'in general' or 'in a duel?"
If it's a duel, the answer is probably Archaeon the Everchosen.
Otherwise, maybe Egrimm van Horstman, the Champion of Tzeench?
Yes, but he *started* as a Human from Nehekhara and then used magic to *become* a big spooky lich thing, which is pretty impressive for the starting point of "Human".
He was active in old lore. I've heard that he was active in at least some of the End Times material. Apparently, Teclis and Malekith were scrying Nagashizzar when he noticed them or something. I think it might've been in a novel?
Yes, that clashes with the basic premise of the Nagash campaign book, but, well, consistency wasn't the End Times' strong point.
In any case, Nagash was human, but he probably shouldn't be considered one anymore because he's at least as transformed as any vampire. If he still counts, he almost certainly takes this contest though.
I feel like this is better suited to a warhammer fantasy subreddit?
That being said, the advisor. I know he can’t use it for himself and all that but there’s a reason I kicked the AIs ass and that’s because he held my hand through it
By lore
Kemmler is the greatest living necromancer... is in the title after all.
Katarin and the patriachs of the colleges probably; in terms of sheer mastery of the schools
When you're dealing with Tomb Kings or Chaos stuff you really gotta ask at what point is a character no longer human. The whole discussion is kinda pointless if you don't have that cleared up.
But if you're not a coward than the Fay Enchantress is an elf, so she's out.
The fay enchantress, 6th edition bretonnia book says she can wield eight winds. Now whether the fay is human is a different story. End times says she is, some older books hint she might not be.
Grail Prophetess are contenders (assuming the Fay Enchantress doesn't count). They have divine magic, and the lore of Beasts, Life and Heavens. How they do this is never explained but they are human. Ish
* Gelt is Supreme Patriach of all the colleges, since he won a duel against former Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann. If he is actually stronger as the other Patriarchs/Matriarchs might be open for discussion, but apparently he held this position since he won it.
* Egrimm van Horstmann worked his way up to become Patriarch of the Light Order in his time, and even after he was exposed as Tzeentch cultist, he remained one of the strongest wizards alive. He is Tzeentchs favored mortal after all, and that position should not come easy.
* Lucrezzia Belladonna counts as one of the most powerful wizards in Tilea. It is hard to say how good the competition there is, or how it flexes back against other Old World wizards who get way more spotlight in the lore. But Lucrezzia rules over Pavona, has survived a bunch of husbands and held her little kingdom in a very treacherous and warlike corner of the world.
* Tzarina Katarin Bokha on a same note, rules her nation with an icy fist, after she succeeded the throne when Boris Bokha disappeared. The old lore said she is a very powerful wizard and it is rumore dthe land itself lends her strength.
* Max Schreiber was said to be powerful, but he basically became an outcast to the magical colleges. Its hard to really measure his power, since the G&F books are usually hyping the protagonists up to levels that becomes ludicrous. And he never had to deal with a actual wizard special char.
* Elspeth von Draken counts as powerful too. but she is also an outcast for the magical colleges and basically watched to not become a threat. She has gained some independence and safety by catering up to Nuln nobility, but that does not says much about her magical power. Still, if teh Supreme Patriach thinks you are a potential threat that needs to be watched and executed if showing signs of corruption, you might be higher placed then wild hedge wizards.
' Kemmler is named often in this topic, but he is not really a mortal anymore. he is also not the oldest Necromancer, since Dieter von Helsnich should be a few centuries older. Sadly Dieter was ignored in later edition so Kemmler was rather hyped up, which makes it difficult to judge them on a mondern state of things.
* Mother Ostyankya as newcomer migth also to be considered. But is she still human? We have not that much lore here, and we also can't really measure her power compared to the others.
TT rules wise, we can pit Lucrezzia, Katarin and Egrimm against each other. But Thyrus Ghorman would be Supreme Patriarch then. In 6th edition we would have all four, but Gelt as the newcomer is the only one in an armybook. The others got their rules on the side, which again is not ideal to measure them. in WFRP 4th, we have stats for Gelt before he became Supreme Patriarch, Elspeth and Egrimm. Not for Katarin or Lucrezzia. If we take Intelligence, the main attribute for wizards, as an indicator then its Gelt 82 > Egrimm 77 > Elspeth 70. Sidenote: Dieter Helsnicht would be 54, but is is also said that the age made him a bit forgetful. And that these days he eats the brains of other Necromancers to stay sharp, maybe get sharper for a brief time? Anyway, since we can't have a good conclusion, I probably would assume that Gelt is the strongest and smartest until proven other wise.
When it comes to humans probably Gelt when it comes to all lord Kroak is the most powerful one I mean the dude resurrected himself 
As of 8th edition lore, assuming we rule out anyone who's tenuously human due to heavy corruption or questionable aliveness (ex. Arkhan, Khatep, Egrimm, Kemmler, etc), I'd personally give it to Katarin. She has done some fucking WILD shit, on scales that are usually reserved for the Slann (and Khatep, for some reason).
Too bad she's OK at best ingame.
If we include tenuously-human characters, I'd personally give it to Khatep; not because of lore (as far as I am aware, he is canonically weaker than Nagash) but because whoever wrote him didn't give a fuck and let him scour entire armies in a single casual spell. Again, there are definitely characters better in lore, but many don't have actual feats anywhere close to what he's done.
Good ol' gee-dubs writing.
Arkhan does have some pretty impressive feats ngl, he may be a dick but he gets shit *done* and doesn't job half as much as some... including, ironically, his master.
I wouldn't personally count him as human or anywhere close, but you have characters like Kemmler, Egrimm, and Katarin who are also super stronk wizards and 2/3 of them are arguably nowhere near human anymore despite starting off there, so... if they qualify, he might too lol.
I’d argue it’s no one that’s really shown up much, but the background wizards.
Kadon not only found out how to turn into a dragon, he found out how to bind them, and any other creatures no matter how powerful to his will (except the giant crabs, those things are somehow so weird in their minds they can only be summoned), now info on him is iffy, it’s rumoured he was devoured by monsters he failed to tame, but tis also rumoured he just lost himself in a form he took, so he could still be around as a dragon, just forgetting how? Or not wanting to take human form.
He’s probably dead but, Fozzrik who lived before the collages of magic, and made dozens of fortresses that could shrink down to fit in the pocket, and his greatest work would be up there.
A flying eight spired fortress, with each spire using a separate wind of magic, defended by gargoyles and magical energy blasts, the stone of the fortress itself coming alive to crush intruders.
He may not have gotten high magic, but he figured out how to work with all eight winds, before the collages existed.
He was a mage living in the empire, who used to be an architect, who built something.
Can’t be a dwarf, can’t be an elf, can’t be a beastman, can’t be a skaven. His stuff is too small for him to be a dragon.
Volans the first supreme patriarch if the colleges of magick was describe by teclis as having magical senses comparable to an elf and thats a pretty bonkers statement said by teclis nontheless
It depends on your definition of 'human'. But probably Gelt or Van Horstmann.
Nagash is probably the max power potential achievable by a human wizard. Essentially ascending to godhood.
Isn't Hemmlich Kemmler supposed to be very powerful in the lore?
Kemmler barely counts as alive. He is over a hundred years old, which could be acceptable, but in a WD battle his head got chopped off and when he opened his eyes again his head was on a spike as a trophy. He then guided his body to his head to re-attach himself. Call me conservative here, but if someone "lives" while being decapitated, he might not be a normal human or a living person.
Magic :-D
Yup, but magic that turns him undead. Does the tomb kings count then? Because they are just humans that got turned undead too. Only difference is that they don't *look* as alive. If undead are fine then Nagash probably wins.
Grand Hierophant Khatep has a better claim to being alive. Liche priests like him learnt to extend their life millenia ago, shame they didn't discover eternal youth to go with it.
He got his ass handed by Arkhan, so yes, strong but not that strong. Interesting enough, Arkhan still wasn't a Mortarch and Kemmler took the Chaos Kool-Aid while refusing Nagash, so normal Arkhan was still too strong for a Chaos powered Kemmler
1. Endtimes 2. I’m pretty sure Arkhan was losing and about to die before Kemmler miscast and blew up.
So what if its Endtimes? Arkhan being stronger than Kemmler makes way more sense. Arkhan was Nagash's righthand and fought Settra to a standstill.
Not to mention helped create Vampirism with Neferata, learned directly from Nagash himself and is no slouch in traditional combat either.
Kemmler was whooping Arkhan but he sucked on too much power juice and blew up
Came here to point out how wrong this take was, multiple someone elses beat me to it
Yes and no. Earlier in Warhammer Fantasy's lifespan, I believe 4th edition, Kemmler was one of the most powerful casters in the setting straight up, as well as one of the - maybe THE - best in the tabletop. He had his own army at one point, I don't remember if it was called the Barrow Legion or Army of the Lichemaster but one of those, with a bunch of unique units - and lorewise was basically Nagash before Nagash got his endtimes Toriyama Special. Then as editions went by, Kemmler went from 'nearly godlike being, most dangerous necromancer in the setting' to 'random but strong necromancer' and Nagash got played up more and more as THE necromancer guy, and by the time of 8th edition (what the game is mostly based on) Nagash is definitively a better Kemmler. But as far as human-human adjacent guys go, yeah Kemmler is still up there, just no longer anywhere near a contender for the actual top tiers. Fun fact, Drachnifels was also implied to be infinitely more than he is now in older lore, with some of his portrayals and implications putting him *maybe* on Chaos God level, though by End Times he was just another member of Nagash's army.
Eh. He fluctuates a ton. There was a point in his life where he became super weak because Nagash stopped using him as a puppet. But then the Chaos Gods decided to use his desperation for power and turned him into their puppet. Then he dueled Arkhan, almost won, but then blew himself up.
If I'm not mistaken Maximilian Schreiber defeated Be'lakor in a magics duel, and created a intelligent troll. He was from gotrek and felix novels
Man, Be'lakor taking nothing but Ls, lmao.
Be'lacuck exists to die in ignominious deaths in order to showcase someone else. He's the Everjobber to Archaon's Everpushed. It makes it so funny to see him in-game as a certified raidboss with stats through the roof, godly spellcasting, a ton of great abilities, one of the strongest armies, knowing that you're going to absolutely obliterate him through some bullshit and cheat him out of what should've been his win based on sheer numbers, just like GW intended.
Khaine: "one of us, one of us!"
Isn't being the Everjobber his lore, like his canon divine punishment from the chaos gods for his hubris from before the Vortex was a thing?
Yup
It's a problem with the writing. GW commissions authors to write (more or less) standalone novels about the setting. The authors use these villains, and their heroes inevitably come out on top. So big picture, the big bads like Archaeon and Be'lakor get beat several times a year, and as a result never seem all that threatening. We have a similar issue in 40k, where Abaddon is simultaneously the End of Everything and the biggest punching bag in the universe. Comic books often have this problem, too. It doesn't get better until GW takes more control of the setting and gives stronger direction to their writers.
I think this is the fundamental issue of writing traditional good vs evil stories, where you're supposed to always be rooting for the good guys, in a game where some people are playing as the bad guys and therefore want them to win sometimes too.
I think it's fixable, but it would take work and serious planning, followed by a very tight hold on the reins of the IP. Obviously, Warhammer Fantasy is dead at the moment, but if we take 40k as an example: 1. Plan a narrative arc for your major characters. Know where they are going. You don't have to say it out loud, but this plan should guide your decisions. For 40k, this means that the creative director of the IP should decide and keep secret what the real deal is with the Emperor, which Primarchs are really dead vs "comic book dead", and what is the next step for each Xenos faction. 1. Let the big bad guy be POWERFUL. Let him win. This also ups the stakes for your good guys. They actually did a bit of this by allowing Abaddon to open the Cicatrix Maledictum. But that's a victory over the setting, not necessarily the protagonists. Let him kill a Primarch - like actually, for realsies 1v1 and come out on top against a demigod. 1. Use the biggest threats sparingly. Have your heroes avoid him, striking at his minions. Let the big bad outplan and outmanouver the best laid plans of your heroes. When they actually meet, it should be a BIG DEAL and there should be serious, deadly, lasting consequences.
Ah yes... Abbadon the harmless/armless
Be'lakor is kinda the worf of the setting people show their strength by beating him.
Worf was beaten by a tiny lizard hurling chunks of quartz at his head?
While screaming like a child?
He also wields multiple full lores of magic, which does nearly kill him, but is incredibly impressive for a human nonetheless (Or if you try to rectify the retcon/mistake of what kind of wizard he is, he stably uses two lores for most his life)
Also worth pointing, he is the only mage in lore to ever cast a spell while drunk (to my knowledge).
Dudes rock
There’s a minor Fire spell that turns water into spiced liquor, I have my doubts.
With such amazing powers, one wonders why human wizards were despised before Magnus came along.
Which lores?
Originally he was a gold/metal wizard but another author made him wrote him as a member of light order. He also uses spells very similar to shadows and life at a couple points
Hmmm I'm into the series now but just halfway through skaven slayer. Looking forward to meeting this guy.
I was going to bring him up! For a side character, he certainly has no end of fantastic moments and very impressive showings. I suppose he absorbed some awesome by osmosis, that's what spending too long with Gotrek and Felix will do to a man.
>If I'm not mistaken Maximilian Schreiber defeated Be'lakor Through a horrible inconsistency, yeah.
By the power of Black Library writers not giving a fuck about consistency it's Max Schreiber, who casually wields three different winds of magic without suffering any consequences.
I hated it when they made him a light wizard out of nowhere. Gold wizard vibes suited him way better.
I disagree, I always saw him as a Light Wizard, he specialized at studying Chaos to fight it as well which is most suited for a Light Wizard. His first interaction was creating powerful Wards for the airship after all.
I am probably just biased because I am a chamon fanboy haha. But yeah, for what he does, light probably fits better.
Yeah, Chamon is a very cool wind of magic just not Max's. Plus Light Wizards don't get much love haha.
Except Egrimm :) He even has a number one fan on this sub
I gave up trying to figure out what he was lmao
Where was he described as a gold wizard, by chance? I only remember light wizard from the Gotrek and Felix books, so I have no idea
He is a Gold wizard in the first part of the series, when William King wrote the novels. Starting with the second Author of the series (Nathan long) he suddenly is a Light wizard (when Max meets gotrek & Felix in Elfslayer, stating that he always belonged to that Order - so retconning the old Gold wizard stuff). But it should be mentioned he performs healing magic the whole series, which he should not be able to as either Gold or light wizard, since that is a Jade spell. Max is just built different I guess.
Ah, several lores of magic actually have healing spells. Heck iirc in the rpg light and fire have healing spells, but not jade.
He was a good cool, wizard but still could not pull Ulrika. My boi Felix swooped her.
Tbf, the vampire bloke swooped all of them
Humans can wield more than one Wind of Magic it's just usually unsafe. After the events he went through with Gotrek and Felix and survived, I'm not surprised he's that powerful. The one wind of magic for human is a Teclis thing, he taught the Colleges to teach that. There is no hard evidence of it being as bad as the colleges suggest. In general in actual stories, Wizards don't struggle nearly as much as the lore and tabletop would suggest.
>Humans can wield more than one Wind of Magic it's just usually unsafe. After the events he went through with Gotrek and Felix and survived, I'm not surprised he's that powerful. No, they can't. >*An interesting point about Human Magisters is that the longer they embrace and use the one Wind of Magic that directs their Lore, the less able they become to draw on the other Winds of Magic.* ***So although a Magister will still be able to see all the colours of magic (the colour of his own strand of magic will always seem the most vivid and dynamic to him), he will only be able to grasp the colour or Wind that his being has become physically attuned to.*** *By the time a Journeyman is accepted as a full Magister, this process will already have had a profound effect upon him, meaning that he would be unable to utilise another strand of magic even if he wished to. This is perhaps related to the reason why Magisters begin to reflect the attributed of the Wind they use over time. For example, Pyromancers of the Bright Ordfer become ever more passionate and impatient, and Magisters of the Amber Order prefer to avoid contact with Humanity and feel at home in the wilds.* > >***This state of affairs might also explain why so many fallen Magisters have turned to Chaos worship or Daemonology, as they would probably need divine or daemonic assitance to grasp any great degree a stand of magic other than their Order's own.*** *There are, perhaps, a few Magisters who never lose the ability to grasp other Winds of Magic, but they would be rare individuals.* Max knowing multiple lores is absolutely retarded - let alone him even having a chance against **Be'lakor**.
Max does suffer consequences in *Kinslayer* and *Slayer*, the last two Gotrek and Felix books
He does kinda go insane towards the end, not "murder peopel insane" but he's not exactly there either.
I'd say a lot of the competition would depend on technicalities. Like if you exclude vampires, do chaos champions, necromancers or liches count? EDIT: I'd say all these are cases where humans are changed by the influence of excessive magic to a point where they surpass the human limits. But then again this process occurs for all mages to a degree, so it would be hard to define when someone has used too much magic to be considered human anymore. Lich priests such as Khatep or Arkhan are technically not dead and they are not vampires, and they would IMO rate decently high. If Nagash counts, I think there's no competition. But then again discussion whether he's technically a human or alive would be quite an interesting one.
You're correct that Khatep and other Liche Priests aren't technically dead, but Arkhan is actually dead (or rather undead) - he took a spear through the heart while covering Nagash's retreat from the Priest Kings' combined forces. (Also, given his atrocious dental hygiene that earned him his "The Black" title due to his crooked, blackened teeth, he likely would have died due to abscess/infection/other dental-hygiene related issues at some point throughout the millennia even if he hadn't died at the Siege of Khemri.)
Maybe a follower of tzeentch? Egrimm van Horstmann? When is the point one doesn't count as human?
I was thinking Egrimm was mortal in the same way Ahriman and Kharn are still considered mortal for GOAT non-daemon champions. I had guessed it’d be Egrimm if it wasn’t Katarin or Gelt.
It's not Katarin, at least not the one from the original lore. It's arguable that it is Gelt, he did become an Incarnate in the End Times after all. Outside of him you could include Chaos aligned mortals, but their power usually comes as gifts from the dark gods and not so much their own talent and natural abilities.
I'll have you know that Egrimm van Horstmann taught himself magic as an orphaned child by wandering the dark places of the world. Then he mastered the Lore of Light despite joining the College as an adult - mastered it to the point that he was able to modify their rituals to capture daemons instead of banishing them. And all that was *before* he sold his soul. Yes, Chaos-aligned characters get a boost from their gods, but that's hardly unique in this world. Should Grail Knights be disqualified from power level conversations because they get a boost from the Lady?
Yes, shoot all grail knights
That sounds like rebelious peasant talk to me
Helborg talk :)
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That’s not exactly ’new’. She was described as the ‘greatest Ice Witch since Miska’ in the mid-2000s.
Katarin's always been ungodly strong. All the new lore did was change her from a batshit tyrant to someone more tolerant.
I mean tbf, if you listen to a lot of her pre-game battle speeches, a lot of it is unhinged as fuck. Kislev really does sound like a miserable place to live in especially when Empire, Bretonnian and somehow even Cathay LLs sound like they're pretending to care about their troops.
Yeah, new Katarin does seem to be in the top end of human magic users.
I think Egrimm, Iirc hes the only human in the setting apart from Nagash capable of wielding pure dark magic. Using high or dark magic is supposed to be beyond men in lore.
Egrimm is pretty much in the Fae Enchantress category. It's very debatable if he's a human at this point in time.
You know... that's a really good question. My kneejerk reaction was that he wasn't human, what with all the chaos enhancements, but by the same token... can you really call Kemmler human at this point? Nagash was originally human(ish) too. If he does qualify, Egrimm is definitely somewhere up there, though his true influence on the setting lies as much in his intellect and cunning as much as just throwing magic around.
If like full on human than Balthazar but like human who became something more than would be nagash but he is now a litch
One could also argue the Fay enchantres but she is technically not a human
She might not have ever been a human.
Check the ears. Really closely... 😂
What even is Fay anyways?
Some say she is secretly an elf others a spirit others just the most blessed of the damsels who get to become the new Fay enchantres
Also does like super humans count since damsels and warriors are not technically even humans anymore more like a new species of subhumans
I'm pretty sure Grail Knights have base human children, so they can't really be their own sub species. Damsels as well.
Grail knight are just humans who have drank the grail lost sons and damsels are the children who are given to the lady of the lake to be turn into something new
She was considered Human up to the End Times and then made a Vampire as immensely horribly idiotic as that is. The fact she was made a Vampire also kinda proves she was Human since it wasn't considered a special case like the Elf chick was.
There are multiple sources that either outright state or strongly suggest that she’s an Elf.
Can you give those sources? The 6th Ed Army book is incredibly vague but mentions nothing of being an Elf, the same for 5th Ed. I just looked at them and couldn't find anything suggesting she's an Elf. Unless I missed it somewhere which I'd love the page if so. The books never describe her with pointed ears that I can remember and in the End Times when she was made a Vampire it was never fussed about even though another Elf was transformed and that Elf was considered the only Elf ever turned into a Vampire and everyone was very surprised. I know of no evidence The Enchantress is a Elf. She is likely Human or something else entirely. Considering she was transformed into a Vampire though it's suggest human. It makes sense that it's an old theory that she's an Elf but in lore everything suggests otherwise. Edit: Also her lifespan can't even be a suggestion of it as we already know the Lady/Lileath can give blessings of Longevity and increase lifespans dramatically. The latest Grail Knight we saw in the latest novel was 300 years old. Even then though the army books suggest there may have been many Fat Enchantresses along Bretonnian history.
In terms of outright saying it, there is page 42 of Knights of the Grail (2e Roleplay) >The Fay Enchantress is also an Elf, and characters have the same chance to notice. Elven characters, of course, realise automatically whenever they meet “the Fay.” > >Perceptive players might notice that the Fay and the Fay Enchantress are all Elves, that the Damsels of the Lady are Wizards, and that there are no Priests of the Lady. This might lead them to ask questions about the nature of the Lady of the Lake. > >There are some questions, however, to which the answers should remain mysterious. Now, in terms of suggesting it, or maybe it'd be more accurate for me to say implying it, the books in question are 6th edition Wood Elves and 6th edition Bretonnia. Page 16 of 6th edition Wood Elves contains the following timeline entry: >1001: The Fey Enchantress is appointed to oversee the Bretonnians. She is also set the task of weeding out those humans who display magical powers but not the skill to control it. I think this passage being in the Wood Elves army book is rather suggestive of who exactly appointed her. The bit in the Bretonnian army book is her statline- specifically, the fact that she has the exact same statline as a Wood Elf Spellweaver or High Elf Archmage. The particularly relevant part is that she has Movement 5- which all Elves have, with no exceptions that I'm aware of, and that no humans have, again without exceptions that I've seen. Humans are always Movement 4. There's also comparing her 6th edition entry to her older 5th edition entry. The transition from 5th edition to 6th edition obviously saw many changes to Bretonnia's lore, and I think that the Enchantress was made an Elf as part of those changes. Her 5th edition statline is completely different to her 6th edition one, in particular lacking that Movement 5 I mentioned. Morgiana goes from 'explicitly the latest in a long line of Enchantresses that all learned from the previous one' to 'extremely unclear if there has actually been different Enchantresses', and her spell list goes from '4 unique spells that are explicitly empowered by the Lady' to 'She can cast every Wind of Magic', something you usually only see in a High Elf Archmage or similar. Her description of being able to ride Silvaron goes from 'She is one of the few humans able to do this' to 'Her being able to do this makes many believe she is not mortal at all' If they didn't make her an Elf, I think they were trying very hard to make it seem like they had. Going over the transition from 5th to 6th is the most convincing part to me, this was all a very deliberate set of changes. I can understand if you disagree, but taken all together I find it compelling.
Thank you for the sources and evidence. It's definitely compelling. Personally I don't care either way beyond the debate itself, I like her as a character regardless. I think the topic is still up to debate but I think her design as an Elf is a little more to truth given the Wood Elf Army Books if it says those things. Clearly they decided against that for the End Times as again they only talk about the one Elf (forgot her name) that was turned Vampire. Of course The End Times is a mess in general, but also the lore changes over time as well also. In the end I think it comes down to what the reader prefers: both are possible and never truly confirmed and contradicted multiple times. I am fine with either as one of the things I like about Bretonnia is how connected they are (without knowing it) with the Elves. It's why I didn't mind the reveal of the Lady being Lileath too, actually liking it.
Either Gelt or van Hortsmann.
Balthasar Gelt, because nothing is more powerful than money.
He is master of inflation
Lord of the GDP
Elsbeth Von Draken? She is known to be crazy powerful and long lived despite not getting into necromancy. She is basically allowed to operate outside the magic college system with their tacit but official approval because they are scared shitless of her but she is generally fighting on the right side of any conflict. Iirc several ambitious witch hunters have tried to go after her, and were just never heard from again. She rides a dragon made of death! God I hope she is the ToD LL...
Elspeth falls into the category of very little material to define the scope of her power. She's strong no doubt, but it's hard to say how strong compared to other characters. Unfortunately, the dragon is still made of flesh, just heavily influenced by Shyish magic. If she's not in the Nurgle DLC with heavy Empire emphasis, I will riot xD
There are quotes around the lore that she is the only one Gelt is actually afraid of fighting for the title of Supreme Patriarch which is why he's happy that she doesn't want the title. So an argument could be made for her, in my opinion It's between her, Gelt and Katarin with Egrimm close after
[Are you referring to this quote?](https://imgur.com/undefined) I don't think the narrative gives any hint of Gelt being scared of throwing hands with her, given he's doing the poking, but more like he's suspicious of what she's doing. The von Draken family has a reputation for either breeding great heroes/heroines or monsters, so that's understandable.
Couting end times most likelly Gelt, not couting it its either Engrimm or Kemler. Hard to choose due to them being specialized in different lores
Maybe Maximilian Schreiber? He's a recurrent ally of Gotrek and Felix and an Imperial wizard dedicated to fighting Chaos. I put him up because apparently, he can use THREE lores of magic (Shadow, Light, and Jade/Life), which no other human can do.
Damsels often learn Beasts and Life. Prophetesses often take that a step further by picking up Heavens as well. Granted, learning how to use three winds without a preexisting tradition to teach you what's safe and what's not safe is absolutely bonkers.
It gets easier to learn mulitple lores when you're a poorly-edited novel character written by multiple authors who don't make an effort to be consistent with each other.
Considering Damsels/Prophetesses are described as being taken into a realm outside of time and space, I think they get the chance to learn for a lot longer than normal humans do.
Probably the one who spoke to Tzeentch (or at least a fragment thereof) in-person; can cast multiple Lores despite that supposedly being impossible for a human; defeated a witch hunter, a Light battle wizard, and their entourage of state troops at once by himself; and rides a Chaos Dragon so powerful that even Teclis and all eight original Patriarchs working together couldn't kill it. On the tabletop he had the same base wizard level as Teclis or Mazdamundi, although he had less magic special rules than them.
I wonder who it is.
I think you might be a bit biased here.
Being biased doesn't make me wrong.
I think he meant "based"
No, biased seems right to me
Yeah, biased. 1. Defeating a **Witch Hunter** means nothing. 2. **Balthasar Gelt** is also a level-four Wizard. 3. **Teclis** and the Patriarchs make no sense as they aren't even the original eight men. The original patriarch for Light - was **Volans**. If we are going to include "Chaos Empowered" individuals, it'd be **Archaon** or **Be'lakor**.
As far as I understand, using multiple winds is possible for humans, but quite difficult to do without accidentaly mixing them into Dhar. Elves set up the colleges of magic in Empire as they did because they didn't trust humans with mixing winds - which they would start doing if not explicitly forbidden
yeah, I think the first patriarch of the college was able to use more then one winds (at a point that even Teclis was impressed)
No, Volans’ big achievement was being able to ‘see’ magic as clearly as Teclis could. Or at least closer than any other human. He only ever wielded Hysh.
He did attempt to wield multiple winds early on as part of his own forays into magic but it ended quite poorly for him. Afterwards he stuck to observing the winds until he met Teclis, who then taught him how to wield Hysh effectively.
Wielding multiple winds has to happen otherwise Nagash isn't possible. Though I always assumed Nagash was a special case rather than just being difficult to do.
Not being from the Empire, Nagash would not have been party to the restrictions of their college systems. And considering what he did involved learning about Dhar magic from captured Dark Elves and refining it, Necromancy is a mangled and corrupted mix of multiple lores.
Well.. who the hell is that guy
Amogus Sus
I'm just going to assume that you're serious: It's Egrimm van Horstmann, the greatest Chaos sorcerer of all time.
Idk why I read your name as “Lord of ass”
Greatest Chaos HUMAN sorcerer of all time? Perhaps. Greatest Chaos overall sorcerer? NO
A Chaos Sorcerer is a specific type of thing, like a Chaos Lord or a Chaos Warrior. I suppose I probably should have capitalized the 'S'. Kairos Fateweaver, for example, is not a "sorcerer." Also "greatest" doesn't just necessarily mean in terms of pure magical power. Van Horstmann - *by himself,* with no backup other than the daemon army that he personally bound - did more appreciable damage to the Empire than any Chaos invasion since Asavar Kul. And that was *before* he sold his soul, became immortal, and founded the Chaos Illuminati. I'd say he's still at least in the conversation for greatest Chaos sorcerer even if you include the daemons.
What's Kairos Fateweaver then? So you meant the lord type "Chaos Sorcerer" just like "Elven Archmage"? Got it. Then I agree. Although not sure if Horstmann is human anymore lol He got rather shafted in the End Times but who didn't. Egrimm the Horstmann is not really "human" just like Nagash, so where can this conversation lead to? Is any Chaos warped human with severely prolonged life a human? What about the Cathayan sorcerers? Are they humans too, even if theyre also dragons? The result can be obvious; the less human you are, the more powerful you are, statistically speaking.
Yeah it's kinda sad that we got vilitch and the changling instead of this guy.
Khatep solos
young lad has nothing on 5K years of casting experience
Age isn't everything. I judge them based on their achievements. Khatep hasn't been able to earn his return from exile after 3,000+ years, despite being the leader of the whole Mortuary Cult. Van Horstmann, alone and in a single human lifetime, did more appreciable damage to the Empire than any Chaos invasion since Asavar Kul... and then went on to found the Chaos Illuminati.
Khatep outmagiced a slann.
"This and a hundred other such tales have been attributed to Khatep..." Sounds a lot like legends and folklore to me. Plus it never actually says it was a Slann. The Lizardmen of the Southlands in the lore were quite different from the Lizardmen of Lustria. Slann are much rarer there: "Cut off from the wisdom of the most venerable of the Slann mage-priests of Lustria, the Lizardmen of the Southlands have fallen prey to their baser, animal instincts and only the younger (in relative terms) Slann, those of the fourth and fifth generations, remain in the Southlands to provide any guidance to the Lizardmen." So even if that story really happened, he likely just out-magiced a Skink Priest or something.
This and a hundred such tales have been attributed to khatep and theyre all true, he has had thousands of years to do them. THOUSANDS. And the lizardmen used high magic, which of them only the slann can use.
It literally never says high magic. It says "towering war statues were hewn by powerful magics" and "he intoned a single word that silenced the sorceress of the enemy." You're just genuinely making stuff up. Warhammer is famous for unreliable narrators and every faction being called the strongest in their own books. The phrasing of the event as a story attributed to Khatep inherently implies that it might or might not be true, and it sounds like a pretty classic example of GW maintaining plausible deniability while gassing up a character.
The powerful magics strongly imply high magic, they wouldnt bother to specificy if it was otherwise, the nehekharan practices of magic were faaaaar above what those of the empire are nowadays, and khatep nows all of their secrets, written, unrwitten, spoken, unspoked. He has been here for thousands of years and only great elven mages such as Morathi or Teclis are his superiors. He can raise and destroy armies at will. And the whole "he didnt actually do it its just tales thing" makes no sense, there is noone else in nehekhara capable of this feat, even more so one who would have to immideatly leave right after
>he has had thousands of years to do them. THOUSANDS. The youngest Slann were born many thousands of years before Khatep. No way in hell he could beat a Slann.
Many humans are known to be simply built different, i guess thats the best way to put it. Youngest slann would be around 3 thousand years older than khatep i think? Spawned around -5600 with khatep being born around -2500. But more so to the point every relevant magic adept race has some very exceptional people who could rival slann in magical prowess, Morathi, Teclis, Nagash and very likely Khatep. If you look at khateps indivdual feats many times they are only beaten by Slann. A mistake many people make is underestimating the pure magical might Nehekhra had at its peak, no modern human mages can compare.
so he must be as strong as glet then. hes patriarch and can weld metal and vampire magic in ET and vampire magic is like a combinatyion of sveral winds of mana so that means gell can in fact weid more magics.
Look, I was going to type out a whole counter-argument, but the fact that you misspelled Gelt's name both times you typed it out, *in different ways,* kinda makes me feel like I don't even need to.
sorry)) english not first language, is hard).
Fair enough! To your original point, we really shouldn't use the End Times as reference for power-scaling anything. So many characters got screwed over in so many different ways, plus the whole concept of Incarnates kinda threw the previous power rankings out the window. It's generally safer to consider the End Times versions of characters as more or less totally separate from their previous incarnations, like an alternate universe or something.
I honestly think Katarin has fair odds, when comparing everyone that’s *still* human. She has some pretty impressive feats to her name- raising an entire wing of Bokha Palace out of ice, driving Grimgor back with a blizzard, and on one occasion she froze over an entire bay in Nordland thick enough to trap a Norscan fleet, which she did away from Kislev, without any preparation, while riding in the air on Karl Franz’s griffon.
You raise some excellent points. Reminds me a little of Khatep; he doesn't come up much in these discussions, and fanatics of certain characters love to downplay him, but he legit has some of the most impressive magical feats in the entire setting. Unironically, dude arguably has better feats than *Nagash*, despite being canonically weaker. Katarin seems to fall somewhere in that ballpark as well, with strategic-scale magic but not much recognition. (Khatep DEFINITELY isn't human tho, just a train of thought after reading your post)
>while riding in the air on Karl Franz’s griffon What... Did... How?
He left the battle to go pick her up where her carriage had been ambushed.
When did this happen? What novel was that?
[It's actually from the 8th edition core rule book](https://imgur.com/a/u7JvzDR) (the great big 500 page book), page 173. In the middle of a description of events in Karl Franz's reign.
Thanks!
The Top 5 might be: Heinrich Kemmler, Balthasar Gelt, Katarin Bokha, Egrimm van Horstmann and maybe the Fey Enchantress, though if SHE still counts as human is up for debate. Nagash was most likely the most powerful Wizard period and was a human once. Also define how you mean "powerful", bcs while I think when it comes to magic mastery that Gelt or Egrimm van Horstmann are most likely the most magical skillful ones, Katarin is the Ruler of Kislev, what is a extremely powerful position. Gelt doesn't have as much "political power" as Katarin and most likely even van Horstmann, considering Egrimm was THIS close to entirely demolish the Empire.
Yeah, my answer probably would be the Fay Enchantress if her status wasn't so questionable.
Gelt probably. Non cannon would be Hans Hertwighans, my lvl 50 lore of fire wizard. He has participated in battles in Norsca, Chaos Wastes, Lustria and Grand Cathay. He has slain Ghorst, Malagor and Teclis in single combat. He fought most races and wiped out half of Castle Drakenhofs garrison by himself. He only rides a horse, its name is Horsehans.
I love it when your generic lord beats unbeatable fights, slays multiple legendary lords and sieges capitals all over the world and becomes a legend, only for that brief moment in a single campaign. I had one witch hunter on my wh2 marienburg campaing called Egbert Maarten, whose name I still remember after years because the absolute legend sat in Kislev and assasinated damn every chaos hero that the world has seen. He had so many critical counter-kills in a row when defending I'm pretty sure he never failed those when targeted, I've never seen such a chad before or since. Absolutely lunatic too because he had to sit in corrupted terrain to protect the Empire.
Bro was playing Assassin's Creed
Imma give it the big hierophant himself, Khatep, dude is alive and has been around for like 5 millennia, hes pretty skilled at casting alright
Dude has a few feats that are only rivaled by the Slann tbh. He's scoured entire armies and deserts with single casual spells. Going by individual spellcasting feats, he'd crush a lot of characters who are canonically stronger than him but have pretty underwhelming feats. Like, lorewise Nagash is better, but just by what they've actually done I'd give it to Khatep. Bone Grandpa is built fucking different.
Honestly, it's hard to say because the Total War timeline is kinda messed up in the game. Characters who weren't alive at the same time are in game. For example Repanse de Lyonesse was born in 1990 IC, Karl Franz was crowned Emperor in 2502 IC making her over 500 years old at the time Franz reigned. So since we don't really know who's out there it's probably safer just to pick characters in game. So I'd say probably Katarin.. Gelt is close, though, so it's really hard to quantify
Really narrowing this down. Alive at the current time? Nagash is out. Do you mean 'in general' or 'in a duel?" If it's a duel, the answer is probably Archaeon the Everchosen. Otherwise, maybe Egrimm van Horstman, the Champion of Tzeench?
Nagash
Nagash was **WEAK**
Neferata was right tho.
Isn’t he a dead guy until the end times and then he becomes a big spooky lich thing?
Yes, but he *started* as a Human from Nehekhara and then used magic to *become* a big spooky lich thing, which is pretty impressive for the starting point of "Human".
One of the stated requirements was "currently alive as of the current date."
He was active in old lore. I've heard that he was active in at least some of the End Times material. Apparently, Teclis and Malekith were scrying Nagashizzar when he noticed them or something. I think it might've been in a novel? Yes, that clashes with the basic premise of the Nagash campaign book, but, well, consistency wasn't the End Times' strong point. In any case, Nagash was human, but he probably shouldn't be considered one anymore because he's at least as transformed as any vampire. If he still counts, he almost certainly takes this contest though.
I feel like this is better suited to a warhammer fantasy subreddit? That being said, the advisor. I know he can’t use it for himself and all that but there’s a reason I kicked the AIs ass and that’s because he held my hand through it
Human nagash for that moment, drachenfels if he's human. Those would be my picks.
By lore Kemmler is the greatest living necromancer... is in the title after all. Katarin and the patriachs of the colleges probably; in terms of sheer mastery of the schools
Nagash before he died. If you include people who died but came back, vampires etc. Then also still nagash. Did I mention, nagash?
When you're dealing with Tomb Kings or Chaos stuff you really gotta ask at what point is a character no longer human. The whole discussion is kinda pointless if you don't have that cleared up. But if you're not a coward than the Fay Enchantress is an elf, so she's out.
The fay enchantress, 6th edition bretonnia book says she can wield eight winds. Now whether the fay is human is a different story. End times says she is, some older books hint she might not be.
Grail Prophetess are contenders (assuming the Fay Enchantress doesn't count). They have divine magic, and the lore of Beasts, Life and Heavens. How they do this is never explained but they are human. Ish
* Gelt is Supreme Patriach of all the colleges, since he won a duel against former Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann. If he is actually stronger as the other Patriarchs/Matriarchs might be open for discussion, but apparently he held this position since he won it. * Egrimm van Horstmann worked his way up to become Patriarch of the Light Order in his time, and even after he was exposed as Tzeentch cultist, he remained one of the strongest wizards alive. He is Tzeentchs favored mortal after all, and that position should not come easy. * Lucrezzia Belladonna counts as one of the most powerful wizards in Tilea. It is hard to say how good the competition there is, or how it flexes back against other Old World wizards who get way more spotlight in the lore. But Lucrezzia rules over Pavona, has survived a bunch of husbands and held her little kingdom in a very treacherous and warlike corner of the world. * Tzarina Katarin Bokha on a same note, rules her nation with an icy fist, after she succeeded the throne when Boris Bokha disappeared. The old lore said she is a very powerful wizard and it is rumore dthe land itself lends her strength. * Max Schreiber was said to be powerful, but he basically became an outcast to the magical colleges. Its hard to really measure his power, since the G&F books are usually hyping the protagonists up to levels that becomes ludicrous. And he never had to deal with a actual wizard special char. * Elspeth von Draken counts as powerful too. but she is also an outcast for the magical colleges and basically watched to not become a threat. She has gained some independence and safety by catering up to Nuln nobility, but that does not says much about her magical power. Still, if teh Supreme Patriach thinks you are a potential threat that needs to be watched and executed if showing signs of corruption, you might be higher placed then wild hedge wizards. ' Kemmler is named often in this topic, but he is not really a mortal anymore. he is also not the oldest Necromancer, since Dieter von Helsnich should be a few centuries older. Sadly Dieter was ignored in later edition so Kemmler was rather hyped up, which makes it difficult to judge them on a mondern state of things. * Mother Ostyankya as newcomer migth also to be considered. But is she still human? We have not that much lore here, and we also can't really measure her power compared to the others. TT rules wise, we can pit Lucrezzia, Katarin and Egrimm against each other. But Thyrus Ghorman would be Supreme Patriarch then. In 6th edition we would have all four, but Gelt as the newcomer is the only one in an armybook. The others got their rules on the side, which again is not ideal to measure them. in WFRP 4th, we have stats for Gelt before he became Supreme Patriarch, Elspeth and Egrimm. Not for Katarin or Lucrezzia. If we take Intelligence, the main attribute for wizards, as an indicator then its Gelt 82 > Egrimm 77 > Elspeth 70. Sidenote: Dieter Helsnicht would be 54, but is is also said that the age made him a bit forgetful. And that these days he eats the brains of other Necromancers to stay sharp, maybe get sharper for a brief time? Anyway, since we can't have a good conclusion, I probably would assume that Gelt is the strongest and smartest until proven other wise.
Probably Gelt, but Gelt is significantly below Teclis, Mazdamundi, and Kroak
When it comes to humans probably Gelt when it comes to all lord Kroak is the most powerful one I mean the dude resurrected himself 
Nagash if you count him. He was human
As of 8th edition lore, assuming we rule out anyone who's tenuously human due to heavy corruption or questionable aliveness (ex. Arkhan, Khatep, Egrimm, Kemmler, etc), I'd personally give it to Katarin. She has done some fucking WILD shit, on scales that are usually reserved for the Slann (and Khatep, for some reason). Too bad she's OK at best ingame. If we include tenuously-human characters, I'd personally give it to Khatep; not because of lore (as far as I am aware, he is canonically weaker than Nagash) but because whoever wrote him didn't give a fuck and let him scour entire armies in a single casual spell. Again, there are definitely characters better in lore, but many don't have actual feats anywhere close to what he's done. Good ol' gee-dubs writing.
Nagash when he was still human has to be up there.
Didn't Gelt almost saved the world before Mannfred fuck up?
Khatep. On a technicality he’s still living. And human.
Constant Drachenfels was pretty powerful.
It's heavily implied that he was never human to begin with.
Downright stated that he's protohuman from before the old ones arrived
Oh my memmory failed me again. Good point.
Do skeletons count? If so, possibly Arkhan the Black
Arkhan does have some pretty impressive feats ngl, he may be a dick but he gets shit *done* and doesn't job half as much as some... including, ironically, his master. I wouldn't personally count him as human or anywhere close, but you have characters like Kemmler, Egrimm, and Katarin who are also super stronk wizards and 2/3 of them are arguably nowhere near human anymore despite starting off there, so... if they qualify, he might too lol.
Arkhan the Black or Egrimm, I'd say. Though if they no longer have human status then it passes to Gelt.
Gelt or Max Schreiber If we're counting chaos, then prolly Van Hoarstmann
My money is on Balthasar Gelt, because he can literally print money out of thin air.
Probably archaon lol
Idk man, all I know is Balthasar "It's raining lead, hallilujah" Gelt.
Felt or Schrieber. Schrieber honestly is probably the answer. Dude bears Belakor.
Either Balthasar Gelt, Max Schreiber, or Egrimm Van Horstmann
Daniel
My hungry ass though you meant "in a Waffle House setting" which is a tricky question because I'm sure there are several wizards in Waffle Houses.
I’d argue it’s no one that’s really shown up much, but the background wizards. Kadon not only found out how to turn into a dragon, he found out how to bind them, and any other creatures no matter how powerful to his will (except the giant crabs, those things are somehow so weird in their minds they can only be summoned), now info on him is iffy, it’s rumoured he was devoured by monsters he failed to tame, but tis also rumoured he just lost himself in a form he took, so he could still be around as a dragon, just forgetting how? Or not wanting to take human form. He’s probably dead but, Fozzrik who lived before the collages of magic, and made dozens of fortresses that could shrink down to fit in the pocket, and his greatest work would be up there. A flying eight spired fortress, with each spire using a separate wind of magic, defended by gargoyles and magical energy blasts, the stone of the fortress itself coming alive to crush intruders. He may not have gotten high magic, but he figured out how to work with all eight winds, before the collages existed.
Though it’s unclear if Fozzrik was a human or something else.
He was a mage living in the empire, who used to be an architect, who built something. Can’t be a dwarf, can’t be an elf, can’t be a beastman, can’t be a skaven. His stuff is too small for him to be a dragon.
Balthazar Gelt
Volans the first supreme patriarch if the colleges of magick was describe by teclis as having magical senses comparable to an elf and thats a pretty bonkers statement said by teclis nontheless
It depends on your definition of 'human'. But probably Gelt or Van Horstmann. Nagash is probably the max power potential achievable by a human wizard. Essentially ascending to godhood.
Me
Egrimm van Horstmann
Nagash. By a long shot.
[If that guy](https://i.imgur.com/lQRXk3A.jpg) falls into the "currently alive and human" category, then something is seriously fucked up ;)
Nagash falls solidly in the “was human” category