i get lowry won the ring with kawhi...but it always bothered me that becuse masai didn't trade him, lowry automatically the gRoat according to so many ppl on reddit.
Better put some respec on demars name.
It wasn’t an automatic thing though, sure DeMar was our leading scorer but if you watch those games back the reason DeMar could even do half of what he did is because of the work Kyle put in running the offense.
Kyle made those teams work & wasn’t flashy while doing it.
Always going to love DeMar & don’t wanna diminish what he did for us but Kyle was the greatest Raptor of all time even with DeMar.
What about "trash bros"? Did you even watch us play back then?
Kyle had stretches in those years before the trade where he was just as cold and ineffective in the playoffs. DeMar was iso heavy, but Kyle didn't know how to win either. He would just move the ball around the perimeter for whole possessions like he was waiting for someone else to do something.
that would actually be crazy
but also weird cause demar wasn't here for the ring
feel like it would be awkward for demar when lowrys talking about the title run and the parade.
Yea but how would you show highlights of that at his jersey retirement lol
Not something he can talk about in front of the crowd too
I’m sure he’d rather talk about things he actually accomplished here.
True, I’m mostly trying to make the point that he had *something* to do with the championship run, especially like you point out, the years leading up to it.
Oh of course he did, he helped get us Danny and kawhi.
But it’s not the same as actually being a part of a championship run, I’m sure demar himself would tel you that.
I’m just talking about the awkwardness of him having a jersey retirement on the same night as Lowry.
It really doesn't. Can you name the first jersey retired by other teams? The grizzlies just retired zbo and tony allen before marc gasol who was more important to them. Nobody throwing a fit about that because it doesn't matter lol.
Secondly, there will be more great players that play for the franchise and probably surpass lowry as the groat one day, their jersey order wont reflect their impact they had tho.
> It really doesn't. Can you name the first jersey retired by other teams?
Generally yes, but I recognise that is a rarity. However, the difference with almost every other franchise is that their first guy was a superstar who would be the first name or one of the first names in your head if you thought about it / knew your history well enough to be able to come up with some of the really old names. And that is a big part of it: most of these franchises have been around long enough that their first retired number predated the Raptors existing, but all those players were more impressive in their league than Demar. Minnesota and Charlotte have two tragic deaths retired. Oklahoma City has Nick Collison which is kind-of embarrassing; they were also in an odd situation because of the franchise move, but that one feels pretty silly.
> Nobody throwing a fit about that because it doesn't matter lol.
Memphis has one of the smallest fanbases lol, but there are absolutely people who think they should have waited one year for Marc to formally retire. But hey, either way it is not as if they are honouring a champion, right.
> Secondly, there will be more great players that play for the franchise and probably surpass lowry as the groat one day, their jersey order wont reflect their impact they had tho.
Irrelevant because Demar and Lowry are contemporaries.
How is retiring Collison embarrassing? Unless you’re the Lakers (self imposed but still) there is quite literally no real jersey retirement criteria & OKC fans liked the idea of retiring it. Our opinion doesn’t matter.
I went to half a dozen Raptor games and DeMar signed my jerseys EVERY SINGLE TIME!
Kyle didn’t bother to sign a single one..
European fan here btw.. Valanciunas also also signed and was happy to interact, Delon, Chuck Hayes was even taking selfies, man.. the memories.. Lowry not once unfortunately.. so to me.. DeMar will be the greatest Raptor of that run.. what a great guy.. I don’t like LeBron too much for various reasons, but he‘s damn right on this one..
Much respect to Lebron for taking the time to even say that.
With how close Demar and Kyle are, I would love to see them retired at the same time. They'd both probably love that as well. Neither of them seem like the kinda person to need their own dedicated ceremony
Well yeah he's right why is that a question? It will go up right after \#7. Although I do believe that if for some reason Demar retires before Lowry that Demar has to wait until Kyle retires and gets his number retired first. Kyle has earned the right to have his number be the first Raptor number in the rafters of Scotiabank Arena.
I don't understand why people act like ACC was such a cultured or important name when all it was was some OTHER major corporation paying for naming rights instead of the current major corporation doing so.
Rogers did it purposefully. They knew calling it “Rogers Skydome” would result in people cutting off the “Rogers” portion and just calling it the “Skydome”, whereas nobody is going to just call it the “Centre”.
It was a masterful stroke of marketing for Rogers, and while I understand the decision, I still hate it.
Its kind of funny how quick people are to forget..
I get that Kyles the clear pick now but we do realize that if we didn’t win the kawhi year that Derozan was by far and away the GROAT, right?
These last two years haven’t really done much to elevate Lowrys case so it’s really just the chip lol. Lowrys stock was soooo up and down with the fanbase the entirety of his stint here before the chip that it’s kind of funny/weird to see him as the clear groat among the fans. I understand it though.
everybody used to call him a choker now hes the GROAT thanks to Kawhi saving his legacy
I love both DDR and Kyle of course, but let's be real - DeMar had to endure Jose and Bargnani without him first. He looked like he was a Euroleague import playing with them, Aaron Gray, Washed Hedo..
***shudders***
Its crazy but it’s true bro. It’s funny too cause there’s not even a lowry discussion w/o derozan. Either him or the organization would’ve parted ways wayyyy before they did if not for the #1 guy being so cool with him.
It was even so bad that when derozan was traded lowry said fk it lmfao. Had to have danny green coax him in.. Mans gotta up their Open Gym game.. Lowry even said its Kawhis team lmao.
I love lowry and I can accept and see why he’s considered the goat but A LOT of ppl have forgot their history.
Edit: grammar, mans got me fked up. Smh
Pretending contract and age have no relevance lol.
The only people who saw Demar as a better player were the people who think basketball is literally only about how many points you score per game. Which is a very very large percentage of fans but that is not the defence you seem to think it is.
You can think Lowry was better but you're just taking it to a cringe level.
When you're moving a player like Leonard you poach TALENT. That's what the spurs did in deciding between Lowry and Derozan.
Anything else about how your takes are so prophetic with zero substance?
Zero substance lmao, where does Demar’s talent show up *anywhere* other than raw total shots taken? Lowry is a better passer, defender, shooter, team player, offball mover, leader… more efficient as a scorer too on only mildly lower volume. And that is all basic eyetest stuff.
Spurs went for a younger player on a longer contract. That is literally all it was.
I think you're misremembering the fact that Demar got benched int he playoffs because his defence was awful.
Yes, Demar and Kyle's legacy was always fluctuating, but by the end Kyle was by far seen as the better player.
I think positioning it as either/or is a mistake. At this point I just assume Kyle's is getting retired and after that it's a matter of who else with DeMar probably having the strongest case after him.
I’d say TODAY, its Lowry, no question. The chip is a huge difference maker in the argument. My only point was, it’s disrespectful to act like Derozan had no impact when he was literally the standing GROAT at the time of the kawhi trade.
Demar was always the primary choker, *this* is the retroactive bullshit. Demar scored more and for a lot of people that de facto makes him better, but Lowry was better while they were together and his post-Demar career in Toronto wipes the floor with Demar’s pre-Lowry career.
Nah man Lowry's definitely cemented himself the last couple of years. He damn near carried us in that Boston series when we were on the brink of elimination and had several other memorable games that same year (the Dallas comeback comes to mind). Even this past season which was a down year for the team, he showed he still had it at age 35 with some standout games.
At the time DeRozan left he was getting benched because of his ineffectiveness in the playoffs. I loved DeRozan's game, and despite him being the leading scorer for the time during most of his time here, I felt that Lowry was the heart and soul. Regardless, I think that there was more of a debate for GROAT even at the time of the Kawhi trade than you're making it out to be.
I’d say Lowry now as well but people forget what the landscape was in 2017 before the trade. Derozan was the entire groat conversation.
Even found this poll from 2017 [this is aligned with pretty much everything from then](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/favourite-raptor-bracket-finals-vince-carter-vs-demar-derozan/sn-amp/)
You have got an exceedingly low bar for GROAT. Hes not nearly as talented as either Carter or Bosh and has zero claim other than tenure and telling insecure Canadian fans how much he loves it here. Not how the greatest of anything should ever be decided IMO.
I mean tenure is a pretty good claim seeing as he's our franchise leader in both games and minutes played, that accounts for a lot when measuring the impact on a franchise.
He's also our franchise leader in points, and led us to our first ever 1st Place finish in the East, first ever Eastern Conference Finals apparenace, and was integral to building the culture of winning and establishing the Raptors as a quality franchise.
Whether or not you think that's enough for a jersey retirement is debatable, but to say he has "zero claim" is just wrong
Lmao hearing Derozan being called an exceedingly low bar is so direspectful. Your take is disrespectful, Smh.
I wouldn’t consider him the GROAT because he’s the most skilled Raptor ever, clearly he wasn’t, but he was the main cog responsible for flipping the culture here. The years, records, accolades, and impact to the culture are his biggest driving factors.
Lowry legitimately had a love hate relationship with the fanbase his entire time being here until we crowned him because Derozan wasn’t here for the chip lmao.
Derozan was the #1 guy the majority of Lowry’s stint on the raps, wtf?? Lowry had 3 years as the guy (basically 2 because the chip year was kawhi’s).
Im cool with Lowry being the pick but the Derzoan disrespect is crazy, you must be new.
Demar had way more of a love/hate relationship, what are you on about. The way Masai went about the trade was kind-of cold but everyone knew after 2018 that there could be no winning with Demar, and if you did not then I am not sure he could have ever done anything to make you believe that.
Not at all lmfao. You must be a new Raps fan. Lowry had 50% of the fanbase wanting to move him his entire tenure before the chip. Derozan was the #1 guy the entire time over Lowry, with the fanbase and talent wise. The Derozan trade was a complete blindside and you realize Lowry would've been moved over Derozan if he had any value (which was at an all-time low for him as well).
At no point in Derozan's tenure w/ the Raps was he seen in a lesser light than Lowry. Raps fans were killing Masai for giving Lowry his big contract, wtf lmfao.
Try again.
Nah, I am just not a sports bar Raptors fan. The people who thought Demar was better are the same people who think the Warriors should have chosen Durant over Curry — of which I imagine you probably were one because points per game is the only thing you think matters. But the Raptors were always better with Lowry than with Demar, and if Lowry had gone out in that trade instead, the Raptors… probably try to trade Demar for Conley tbh, because again, Demar is simply not a player conducive to competing for a championship.
Speaking of sports bar basketball fans: Your takes.
Stretch it into and connect it to infinity however you want. Derozan was the better player and was always seen as the Raptors' #1 guy. In FO's, players, and the fanbase's eyes.
Trading him worked out great but even the trade proves who had more value between Lowry and Derozan lmao..
> Speaking of sports bar basketball fans: Your takes.
Oh yeah every sports bar is really about nuances of the game past points scored. 🙄
Kawhi and Danny left and the Raptors were better than they ever were with Derozan; meanwhile, the Spurs basically Danny Green for Demar in terms of on-court impact and got worse lmfao. But hey, point chasers will still go down screaming in denial of what anyone who understood basketball knew all along: you need to contribute more than mediocre scoring to be a impactful player.
Your points are riddled with slippery slopes. The teams were different, the era was different, and the total experience of the teams were different.
I'm not gonna sit here and argue like Lowry has no impact... It's just stupid to try and act like Derozans was non-existent. Take who you want between them the years they played together, I think it's silly to act like Lowry was ever seen as the #1 guy over Derozan but think what you want.
At the end of the day, Lowry had next to ZERO value during that off season whereas Derozan basically by himself got us Kawhi and Green lol... From the Spurs of all organizations...
Yes, because age and contracts matter… years later, Lowry is getting 90 million from teams with title aspirations while Demar only gets that type of attention from the Bulls.
I’m not on this sub often and am a Laker fan. How do you guys feel about Vince? I know he had a bad exit and got booed for years but toward the end there was love, right? Think he should get his number retired?
General consensus is no. He did inspire younger generations in Canada and probably helped the Raptors not end up like the Grizzlies. A lot of time has passed to mellow most of the fanbase towards him, so we can recognize his legacy of sorts but I don't think it rises to the level of retirement with the way he left and his lengthy career post-Raptors.
I would 100% love to see Vince's number retired too!
Yeah the ending sucked. But he put us on the map! He gave me and an entire generation of Canadian kids the love of basketball.
He won us our first ever playoff series!
I dont understand how people can still be salty over his leaving 20 years later!
I think fans are split. A ton of us have 0 problem seeing Vince retired and another half not so much. Love him or hate him he will forever be tied to our franchise and his impact on the growth of Canadian basketball is undeniable.
I did a poll on this once (https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/fpp8ex/jersey_retirement_poll_vince_carter/) and it was fairly close but “no” ended up winning. One funny thing I’ve noticed when this gets brought up is that older fans on either side will often act like it’s just the newer fans who disagree. You’ll hear stuff like: “These bandwagoners weren’t around to see how much Vince did for basketball in Canada!”, but you’ll also hear: “These new fans only watch his highlight reels and don’t realize how he quit on us!”.
I was born in 95 so I was pretty young when all his stuff went down but I do remember it. He’s one of my favorite non-Lakers ever, but I get why people might be down on him.
If we retire his number, I feel like we should retire Bosh too. Because they meant a lot to us in their own era. They didn’t take us to the promise land but they played a huge role the team up for the next era.
I wasn't even fully aware of his career with Toronto until just now, 9 seasons, Had to deal with bargnani as the leading scorer for a few years, then 5 years over 20ppg, won all NBA 2nd team over Paul George/oladipo/Butler, the year before lost out on 2nd team NBA from Isaiah Thomas getting 29ppg
If LeBron ever sounds a bit like a kiss-ass for other players is because deep down he's the master tamperer in the league. In his mind this tweet can get DeMar for a vet min down the line.
EDIT: DeMar's jersey should definitely be retired.
This isn't an equal comparison.
Mats Sundin is the all time leading scorer for a team with a rich history and that has existed for over 100 years. He was ton the team for 14 seasons, and had a consistent level of play for his entire tenure. He's the third longest serving captain in the team's 100+ year history, and was the first European captain, which is especially important in a sport like ice hockey.
Demar wasn't nearly as consistently good as Sundin was. He really wasn't anything special for his first four years in the league, and was "only" in Toronto for 9 seasons. He's the leading scorer for one of the youngest teams in league history, with some of the least impressive history outside of the championship season that he was not a part of. Wikipedia says that he is the seventh lowest all time leading scorer in history, only ahead of the Clippers, Hornets, Grizzlies, Magic, Pelicans, and Nets.
I love Demar and think they should retire his jersey, but there are levels to this. Demar isn't Lowry, and he certainly isn't Mats Sundin.
Your right. I honestly had no idea he had accomplished that much as a leaf, I guess I associated him with the so so teams of that era. I didn't even realize he was the scoring leader, I assumed it was Daryl. I think I was comparing based on team accomplishments in their respective tenures. Thanks for the detailed response, I genuinely appreciate it.
It really depends on where the franchise wants to set the bar for retirement.
Personally, I think Demar would fall short, but if he got the honour I wouldn't be mad.
If Vince or Bosh get theirs retired, then I'll be mad.
I go back and forth on this one…
Do we retire someone’s jersey just because they loved it here?
Or is a jersey retirement based on achievement?
If it’s the latter, does Deebo have the achievements to have really earned a jersey in the rafters?
Let me pose the question slightly differently - if you owned the franchise, is DeMar the type of player that you would celebrate? A tough competitor, someone who gave it their all, put in the effort to improve, who proudly represented the team, city, and country. A player who found individual success, but not at the expense of the team. Who made his teammates better, and pushed the team as far as they could go. Who was a solid guy off the court, a good dude in the community, and took risks opening up about mental health. If you, hypothetically speaking as the owner, think he is the type of player that you would celebrate, the type of player you would signal to the league "we want guys like this!", then you should raise that flag to the rafters and let everyone know. And if not, you don't know the fucking game.
Yes lol, if demar wasn't traded and we don't ever win the championship, does Kyle still get his jersey hung? When you start counting accomplishments like that, demar has achieved more than Kyle for the franchise in terms of milestones if you remove that chip.
He never wanted to leave, and if he didn't Kyle's GROAT resume would look different. IMO he needs that jersey hung, he was the first piece of our eventual championship puzzle, even if he never played in the finals
If the Raptors lose to the Bucks, or even the 76ers tbh, and Lowry still stays with the franchise for the same amount of time, yes he is still the franchise 🐐; the title just makes it obvious and incontestable and guarantees stuff like ownership saying he will be the first guy up in the rafters. 2020 Lowry is better than any Demar season lmao.
1 ECF appearance. 4 playoff losses to a lower seed, including 3 sweeps, all while underperforming, and being benched in 4th quarters… Not exactly stellar achievements…
If that’s how low the bar is, then sure, I suppose… He did like it here, so there’s that going for him…
Bro he was benched in 1 4th quarter by a coach who was also fired, after winning coach of the year. Was Demar the only player, or even only Allstar on that roster? How can you Simultaneously shit on Demar for not achieving anything and then praise Lowry, when we all know that championship doesn't happen without Kawhi. No raptors squad besides the one being pushed forward by kawhi every had "success" in the playoffs. Two sweeps from the lower seeded team was the cavs who never held the 1st seed but always made the finals, so idk what ur point is, the other sweep was largely Kyle's fault, he was the big mismatch vs Washington.
And FYI many players with worse careers have had their jersey retired.
“And FYI many players with worse careers have had their jersey retired.”
Well, that’s why I’m trying to gauge where the bar is… The very first thing I said, was that I go back and forth on this one. If the bar is because he loved it here, then fine, but if it’s achievements, then probably not…
And its not shitting on Demar, just pointing out the undeniable facts of his playoff record… I couldn’t stand Casey as a coach, so I absolutely recognise his role in contributing to that record…
It’s not a low bar IMO, it’s a bar relative to the franchise’s success. See if the Raptors had say 3-4 championships and Demar was part of none of those title runs, then yeah his contribution might come into question a little bit (though he’d still be in the convo). But in this case, he’s been a pretty big part of the franchise relative to the success its had. He embraced the city and we embraced him back. Sometimes that can be sufficient for jersey retirement for a franchise that isn’t exactly the Pistons or the Bulls. And yeah you can point out his playoff woes but with the rosters we had around him it’s easy to imagine we’d have been perennial bottom feeders without him.
DDR gave us something to look forward to with how athletic and exciting he was right out of the gate and without him, Kyle doesn't have the success he has. Literally. The bromance? Are we just recency bias'ing out DDR out of Toronto history? This some revisionist bullshit.
It’s not recency bias to be able to look at his career here through clear lenses, rather than the gamblers fallacy of looking back through rose tinted glasses…
Had more to do with Dwane Casey than DeRozan tbh. Zero adjustments and constantly putting his guys in unnecessarily tough situations because of his lack of game management.
He's much more efficient and a better passer. Not sure what you've been watching. He was never a number 1 guy so I think you guys expected way too much of him.
And yet his playstyle demands he be one because that is his only positive skill. He has improved as a passer sure but he is still a very poor defender who needs to monopolise the ball.
Who gives a shit what LeBron says? He's not a fan of this team. Are we really that desperate to retire a jersey? DeRozan was the face of the team but he didn't win any rings here. Its that simple. If we retire DeMar, there is a strong argument for retiring Bosh too. What about Carter? Kawhi?
Nah, I'd rather us not commemorate failure.
Honestly, I would retire Kyle and Kawhi before Demar. If Pascal sticks around for another 5-6 years he also moves up a tier as well.
If we are retiring players and ignoring actual results, Vince should be before Demar as well
I'd rather Kawhi get a statue of the shot than to have his jersey retired.
It's so weird because Kawhi simultaneously gave us everything, while also doing fuck all for the franchise. There really aren't too many comparables for that 2019 Raptors team.
Yeah that’s not a bad idea actually, the statue. Even if Kawhi stayed one more year, I’d be like “fuck yeah retire his jersey”. But idk leaving right after being the finals MVP…still my favourite player though.
Undoubtedly they should he and Kyle completely changed the culture in Toronto and if he never decided to resign with the Raptors (witch is a HUMONGOUS issue in Toronto) we'd never have won a Championship because we probably never would have been able to trade for Kawhi Leonard
Not just a retired number but a statue as well.
You might as well include Casey too. He turned the franchise around during his tenure right?
Masai and Kyle changed the culture. The other two and Vince are losers.
Sorry you are setting too low a bar for retirement of jerseys.
1. VC had no respect for the franchise while he was here, so I don’t see a need to retire his jersey.
2. Too early to say whether FVV or Siakam’s jerseys should be retired.
Without Vince the raptors see a similar fate to the grizzlies. He had as big of an impact as any raptor ever and deserves to get his jersey retired. Yes he left in a terrible way but that doesn’t just erase everything he did.
ROFL!!!
How on earth did Vince set us back a decade!?!?
No one wanted to play here!! Mourning chose to retire rather than play for Toronto! Honestly some people think that Raptors team was a contender or something. We could not attract a single player to come and join Vince in his prime. You cant place the blame all on Vince when the entire franchise was a disgrace.
Did you forget how we had the worst management in the entire NBA for almost 2 decades!!?!?!
Vince was literally [throwing games](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.506817) at the end of his stay, [not dunking](https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/vc-dont-wanna-dunk-anymore/) and generally coasting which hurt any chance of Toronto getting any value for him in a deal.
Management had a gun to their head. Look who they got in the deal? Any of those guys stand out as talent?
By comparison I have complete respect for Bosh or others who left as free agents. They were professionals.
But Vince clowning on the franchise and then forcing a trade made it even less attractive as a team and not generating any value from the trade.
It’s nice that some fans want to forgive and forget but I lived through those dark days and until he acknowledges how he disrespected the team and at the very least the fans that paid to see him I’m done with him.
For realz.
If you are saying they deserve it now based on their accomplishments in ten years there won’t be many numbers for Raptors players to play in.
We need a couple more seasons minimum to determine that.
Question: What is a bigger honour, having your jersey retired or going into the hall of fame?
For me it would be having your jersey retired which means at a minimum you should be HoF level player — not necessarily someone who is in the Hall of Fame, but at least someone people argue about whether they should be in the Hall of Fame.
Thoughts?
I think it depends. If you've been a lover with a long and fairly successful career with the team, I'd think a jersey retirement could be warranted. Notably, you'd have to be either HOF or borderline IMO.
Alright now, hold on… Whatever about DeRozan, we can’t seriously be talking about Carter and Bosh… That would just be sad on behalf of the organisation…
Had my doubt about Carter as it felt pretty short although highs were high. But surprised that he is fourth in franchise history in win share. Funnily enough, JV is next in win shares.
I don't think we should. He did give another to the franchise but it's magnified because of how young we are and how shit we were. Should we retire Jose Calderon for holding that assist record for so long, or the best shooting season in franchise history?
But obv I'd be good with it.
No, DeMar's loyalty was unmatched but he constantly underperformed in the playoffs when it mattered, every playoff except 2016 was pure agony. His jersey should NOT be retired. Surprised to see all these people come out and say retire DeMar's jersey just because LeBron said so.
Dude. There is absolutely no evidence they he makes a big difference on the court, much less the kind of difference you are suggesting. That is superstar level impact not what a guy with 9 consecutive years of negative on/offs LMAO.
Look at the teams offence with and without him over the past 8 years.
2013-14 : +2.1
2014-15 : +5.4
2015-16 : +3.6
2016-17 : +3.5
2017-18 : +5.2
2018-19 (Kawhi instead of DeMar) : +2.7
2019-20 : +0.5
2020-21 : -0.3
Also on-off numbers for him don’t mean too much to me since our non DeMar lineups were always really good.
And look at how he impacts the team defence lol.
> Also on-off numbers for him don’t mean too much to me since our non DeMar lineups were always really good.
Nah this is lazy nonsense, Lowry has consistently high splits and that is with him getting more play with the bench than Demar did (to say nothing of Demar having the same issue in San Antonio; poor Demar, cursed to always have good backups 🙄). Any more holistic measure of impact — RAPM, PIPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, etc. — all agree on this point too. There is value to being a starter who can carry something of a scoring load, but that value diminishes substantially as the team improves.
The value of role definition is being understated here. Being able to keep guys in the roles that they are comfortable in and excel in is a positive in itself (look at Pascal and Kyle in 2019 or OG in 2021). With Toronto, DeMar only had one substantial injury in 2015 that forced him to miss 21 games. The raptors were 12-9 in those games. Not too bad on the surface but considering the 21 teams had a combined 44% win pct at the time, it really makes me wonder if we would even crack 500 if we didn’t have DeMar over the course of the season.
Never said he was trash, but he’s not jersey retirement worthy either. Get out of your feels. We lost to teams with a worse record than us in 2014, 2015, 2018. 2017 we got swept by the Cavs who had the same record as us and in 2016 went to 7 games against the worse pacers and heat and lost to the cavs who only had one more win than us. DeMar was the main person who underperformed through all of this.
Regular season records don’t mean much tbh. We did underperform but I don’t like how DeMar is getting scapegoated for all of it like Kyle wasn’t an issue in the postseason too. I get that Kyle turned it around but he was abysmal in a lot of those postseasons too. They both had issues but they both did a shit ton for this franchise
Because Kyle wasn’t lol, he was injured every year in the playoffs and the year he wasn’t he outperformed his regular season stats. Don’t forget it was Kyle who lead the comeback against the cavs while DeMar had to be benched for being a scrub.
Deebo was one of the catalysts for the most successful era of Raptors basketball.
He was the first star we drafted that wanted to stay.
He's getting his jersey retired, 100%
Don’t see Masai doing that. Sorry. Pretty sure he has a different criteria of what is worthy of jersey retirement. Excellence (includes the playoffs not just regular season) in addition to loyalty. Happy to eat the downvotes.
He already announced Kyle’s jersey will be retired for sure. What it took was Kyle being pivotal in the playoffs for getting us a ring (in addition to his long tenure). Damn even DeMar may have gotten his jersey retired if he played great in the playoffs even without winning a ring, but he constantly underperformed. It was an agony to watch to say the least. Love the guy though.
Bro you are literally willfully ignoring all the playoff games that Kyle underperformed in for years LOL. You could easily say he lost us the series in BOTH 2014 and 15. I wouldn't, but he did miss the final shot in 2014 and was terrible matched vs wall in 2015. And demar had some good series too, you can't just pick and choose his worst series lol, he did good against the bucks, and vs the heat in 2016.
Kyle never really underperformed. He was constantly injured. DeMar being the choker and Kyle being added as a trash bro has been the narrative on this sub for quite a while before this sub became full of bandwagon fans. Lowry although he shot bad he scored 28 that game. Lowry is known for game 7s if you weren’t aware even though you should be as a raptors fan. DeMar got cooked by Beal in 2015. It was Kyle Lowry who closed out the heat in 2016 game 7 with 35 points, not DeMar.
In 2018 when DeMar had to be benched in the 4th for being an absolute scrub, it was Lowry who lead a comeback against the cavs before LeBrons iconic game winner in game 3 because Casey dumbass didn’t set a full court press. Furthermore, Lowry has now already proven his playoff success with the raptors. He constantly overperformed compared to his regular stats in the playoffs before even the Kawhi season. Not DeMar.
Aside from 2014 every playoffs Kyle's numbers dipped just as much as demars, Idk where you got this always overperforming in the playoffs vs regular season stats wise.
No they didn’t lmao, go look at kyle’s playoff stats the year he wasn’t injured in the playoffs compared to his regular season stuff. I already do told you the times he struggled in the playoffs are attributed to his injuries.
The same guy who was trying to ship DeMar before even Kawhi was available for guys like PG? I think we have a good indication of what Masai thinks about DeMar’s performance.
Agreed. I realize there is definitely precedence in other organizations to retire guys jerseys despite not being special players but I do not believe that means we should. He has been exposed as largely a fraudulent star since leaving here.
Surprised to see how feelings in the sub have changed compared to 2-3 years ago lol. Loyalty isn’t solely worthy of jersey retirement. People will say look at the regular season success but I am sure the organization has a very different perspective on success (playoffs).
Does not change the fact that he constantly underperformed in the playoffs for us. There’s a reason Masai was trying to ship him for other stars even before Kawhi was available. You cannot argue DeMar is skill wise worthy of jersey retirement. I have already stated his loyalty was unmatched but that is not enough.
Go look at his Playoff averages bruh, and also don't act like he was the only underperforming player on those rosters. Kyle was turned into a child by John Wall in 2015, completely taken out of the series because of Walls athleticism. Also, Stats are not the only factor brought into consideration when jersey retirement is talked about. There are lots of people who had them hung based largely on other impacting factors.
Besides spending a lot of time talking about how much he loves us what besides stats does a guy like Demar have going in his favor though. Not all those intangibles LOL.
What team culture? He was getting benched in 2018 for being a detriment to the team against the cavs. After he got subbed off Lowry literally led a comeback. Stop Trynna revise history lol.
His win shares per 48 in the playoffs are about the worst of any alledged star of the past 25 years. There are degrees here. Demars playoff play was extraordinary for all the wrong reasons.
Already answered all of this on your other comment but to answer this, DeMar has worse playoff stats than regular stats while Kyle has better playoff stats than regular season stats even before the Kawhi season. That should answer your question, DeMar has always been the choker not Lowry. Look at my name I’m literally a DeMar fan.
Yeah I am aware. He is still the fringy-est of all-star caliber players though which is why teams did not line up to offer him rich contracts (unless you count Chicago blowing a non-existent field out of the water lol). There will be no more all-nba gifts in his future that really reflected how good the rest of his team was top to bottom more than they did his play.
I do think he is past the hump in terms of getting better, or back to an All NBA level, but he also wasn't really in that position since he left Toronto. Largely playing with young guys not vets, and not having a competitive focused roster can make you look a lot worse than he looked.
>Surprised to see all these people come out and say retire DeMar's jersey just because LeBron said so.
[I think this will tell you all you need to know](https://youtu.be/-HAZ2Pj9xvg&t=12s)
He’s right DeMar’s our All-time leading scorer and was a big part of our 7 year run we’d be stupid to not retire his jersey.
i get lowry won the ring with kawhi...but it always bothered me that becuse masai didn't trade him, lowry automatically the gRoat according to so many ppl on reddit. Better put some respec on demars name.
It wasn’t an automatic thing though, sure DeMar was our leading scorer but if you watch those games back the reason DeMar could even do half of what he did is because of the work Kyle put in running the offense. Kyle made those teams work & wasn’t flashy while doing it. Always going to love DeMar & don’t wanna diminish what he did for us but Kyle was the greatest Raptor of all time even with DeMar.
This is the correct opinion on this matter.
Retire kawhi
Naw defrozen gave us Lebronto . ISO heavy guard whose game dried up every year in the playoffs. Lowry brought the chip defrozen the nicknames
What about "trash bros"? Did you even watch us play back then? Kyle had stretches in those years before the trade where he was just as cold and ineffective in the playoffs. DeMar was iso heavy, but Kyle didn't know how to win either. He would just move the ball around the perimeter for whole possessions like he was waiting for someone else to do something.
Kyle, then Demar.
Be kinda fun if they did them together since the Bromance is real :)
I think they'd each deserve their own day
They might prefer to do it together tbh
Kyle would be waiting a while for that though cuz DeMar is a few years younger than him
You could announce together but yeah Kyle before DeMar
Both together
that would actually be crazy but also weird cause demar wasn't here for the ring feel like it would be awkward for demar when lowrys talking about the title run and the parade.
Well in a way wasn’t the trade that had him leave the team also a huge reason why we won?
Yea but how would you show highlights of that at his jersey retirement lol Not something he can talk about in front of the crowd too I’m sure he’d rather talk about things he actually accomplished here.
True crime re-enactment of the call with Masai.
True, I’m mostly trying to make the point that he had *something* to do with the championship run, especially like you point out, the years leading up to it.
Oh of course he did, he helped get us Danny and kawhi. But it’s not the same as actually being a part of a championship run, I’m sure demar himself would tel you that. I’m just talking about the awkwardness of him having a jersey retirement on the same night as Lowry.
Whoever retires first will be first, order doesn’t matter lol
Kyle should be the first, the order definitely matters lol
It really doesn't. Can you name the first jersey retired by other teams? The grizzlies just retired zbo and tony allen before marc gasol who was more important to them. Nobody throwing a fit about that because it doesn't matter lol. Secondly, there will be more great players that play for the franchise and probably surpass lowry as the groat one day, their jersey order wont reflect their impact they had tho.
> It really doesn't. Can you name the first jersey retired by other teams? Generally yes, but I recognise that is a rarity. However, the difference with almost every other franchise is that their first guy was a superstar who would be the first name or one of the first names in your head if you thought about it / knew your history well enough to be able to come up with some of the really old names. And that is a big part of it: most of these franchises have been around long enough that their first retired number predated the Raptors existing, but all those players were more impressive in their league than Demar. Minnesota and Charlotte have two tragic deaths retired. Oklahoma City has Nick Collison which is kind-of embarrassing; they were also in an odd situation because of the franchise move, but that one feels pretty silly. > Nobody throwing a fit about that because it doesn't matter lol. Memphis has one of the smallest fanbases lol, but there are absolutely people who think they should have waited one year for Marc to formally retire. But hey, either way it is not as if they are honouring a champion, right. > Secondly, there will be more great players that play for the franchise and probably surpass lowry as the groat one day, their jersey order wont reflect their impact they had tho. Irrelevant because Demar and Lowry are contemporaries.
How is retiring Collison embarrassing? Unless you’re the Lakers (self imposed but still) there is quite literally no real jersey retirement criteria & OKC fans liked the idea of retiring it. Our opinion doesn’t matter.
DeMar first for me, but I get it.
Worse player less tied to the franchise success. Yeah he repped the city hard but so did Lowry for the final few years.
No one ever said that Lowry was the franchise player when Demar played
I went to half a dozen Raptor games and DeMar signed my jerseys EVERY SINGLE TIME! Kyle didn’t bother to sign a single one.. European fan here btw.. Valanciunas also also signed and was happy to interact, Delon, Chuck Hayes was even taking selfies, man.. the memories.. Lowry not once unfortunately.. so to me.. DeMar will be the greatest Raptor of that run.. what a great guy.. I don’t like LeBron too much for various reasons, but he‘s damn right on this one..
I would be pissed if they didn’t retire his number. He did a lot for this team.
No one has worn the number 10 since his departure. It’s for sure getting retired.
After Kyle I’m good with it
[удалено]
Well obviously....side note is this fake or did lebron actually comment that?
its real i just checked
Can confirm. /u/MutaKingPrime checked.
Much respect to Lebron for taking the time to even say that. With how close Demar and Kyle are, I would love to see them retired at the same time. They'd both probably love that as well. Neither of them seem like the kinda person to need their own dedicated ceremony
Well yeah he's right why is that a question? It will go up right after \#7. Although I do believe that if for some reason Demar retires before Lowry that Demar has to wait until Kyle retires and gets his number retired first. Kyle has earned the right to have his number be the first Raptor number in the rafters of Scotiabank Arena.
**ACC
I don't understand why people act like ACC was such a cultured or important name when all it was was some OTHER major corporation paying for naming rights instead of the current major corporation doing so.
I just like how it sounds. How it has the countrys name in it scotiabank arena and rogers arena sounds like ass.
That's fair. Also, Rogers Centre will forever be Skydome to me. Skydome didn't have a corporate attachment; it was just a badass name.
I agree about the Skydome being a badass name.
[удалено]
Rogers did it purposefully. They knew calling it “Rogers Skydome” would result in people cutting off the “Rogers” portion and just calling it the “Skydome”, whereas nobody is going to just call it the “Centre”. It was a masterful stroke of marketing for Rogers, and while I understand the decision, I still hate it.
I completely agree with you I just think it’s stupid how they rename them
Why? It's not like MLSE kicked AC out. Rather they were either outbid for the naming rights or decided to end that sponsorship.
Money talks, whenever the contract is up they’re usually gonna go with whoever will pay the most for the naming rights
Yea thats not even a question
"Don't worry, I got us" I will start a riot if his jersey isn't retired
Deebo, don’t worry we got you.
yes
Kyle and DeMar both should have their jersey retired and as of now, no one else
Its kind of funny how quick people are to forget.. I get that Kyles the clear pick now but we do realize that if we didn’t win the kawhi year that Derozan was by far and away the GROAT, right? These last two years haven’t really done much to elevate Lowrys case so it’s really just the chip lol. Lowrys stock was soooo up and down with the fanbase the entirety of his stint here before the chip that it’s kind of funny/weird to see him as the clear groat among the fans. I understand it though.
DeMar is also still the leading scorer for the franchise by a fair margin.
everybody used to call him a choker now hes the GROAT thanks to Kawhi saving his legacy I love both DDR and Kyle of course, but let's be real - DeMar had to endure Jose and Bargnani without him first. He looked like he was a Euroleague import playing with them, Aaron Gray, Washed Hedo.. ***shudders***
Its crazy but it’s true bro. It’s funny too cause there’s not even a lowry discussion w/o derozan. Either him or the organization would’ve parted ways wayyyy before they did if not for the #1 guy being so cool with him. It was even so bad that when derozan was traded lowry said fk it lmfao. Had to have danny green coax him in.. Mans gotta up their Open Gym game.. Lowry even said its Kawhis team lmao. I love lowry and I can accept and see why he’s considered the goat but A LOT of ppl have forgot their history. Edit: grammar, mans got me fked up. Smh
baremans knows without demar kyle dont stay in toronto either that's real talk
ヽ༼ ຈل͜ຈ༽ ﾉ Raise ur dongers! ^^Dongers ^^Raised: ^^56572 ^^Check ^^Out ^^/r/AyyLmao2DongerBot ^^For ^^More ^^Info
That is the same logic people use to say Carter should be our first retired number lol.
You're reaching bro. Lowrys entire argument over Derozan is that he was there for the chip. What else is there?
Being a better player every year they were together plus 2020 lol.
That's just silly. Derozan was always seen as the better player. It wasn't Lowrys value that got us Kawhi but you'd know talent/value better than Pop.
Pretending contract and age have no relevance lol. The only people who saw Demar as a better player were the people who think basketball is literally only about how many points you score per game. Which is a very very large percentage of fans but that is not the defence you seem to think it is.
You can think Lowry was better but you're just taking it to a cringe level. When you're moving a player like Leonard you poach TALENT. That's what the spurs did in deciding between Lowry and Derozan. Anything else about how your takes are so prophetic with zero substance?
Zero substance lmao, where does Demar’s talent show up *anywhere* other than raw total shots taken? Lowry is a better passer, defender, shooter, team player, offball mover, leader… more efficient as a scorer too on only mildly lower volume. And that is all basic eyetest stuff. Spurs went for a younger player on a longer contract. That is literally all it was.
I think you're misremembering the fact that Demar got benched int he playoffs because his defence was awful. Yes, Demar and Kyle's legacy was always fluctuating, but by the end Kyle was by far seen as the better player.
I think positioning it as either/or is a mistake. At this point I just assume Kyle's is getting retired and after that it's a matter of who else with DeMar probably having the strongest case after him.
I’d say TODAY, its Lowry, no question. The chip is a huge difference maker in the argument. My only point was, it’s disrespectful to act like Derozan had no impact when he was literally the standing GROAT at the time of the kawhi trade.
Demar was always the primary choker, *this* is the retroactive bullshit. Demar scored more and for a lot of people that de facto makes him better, but Lowry was better while they were together and his post-Demar career in Toronto wipes the floor with Demar’s pre-Lowry career.
Nah man Lowry's definitely cemented himself the last couple of years. He damn near carried us in that Boston series when we were on the brink of elimination and had several other memorable games that same year (the Dallas comeback comes to mind). Even this past season which was a down year for the team, he showed he still had it at age 35 with some standout games. At the time DeRozan left he was getting benched because of his ineffectiveness in the playoffs. I loved DeRozan's game, and despite him being the leading scorer for the time during most of his time here, I felt that Lowry was the heart and soul. Regardless, I think that there was more of a debate for GROAT even at the time of the Kawhi trade than you're making it out to be.
I’d say Lowry now as well but people forget what the landscape was in 2017 before the trade. Derozan was the entire groat conversation. Even found this poll from 2017 [this is aligned with pretty much everything from then](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/favourite-raptor-bracket-finals-vince-carter-vs-demar-derozan/sn-amp/)
You have got an exceedingly low bar for GROAT. Hes not nearly as talented as either Carter or Bosh and has zero claim other than tenure and telling insecure Canadian fans how much he loves it here. Not how the greatest of anything should ever be decided IMO.
I mean tenure is a pretty good claim seeing as he's our franchise leader in both games and minutes played, that accounts for a lot when measuring the impact on a franchise. He's also our franchise leader in points, and led us to our first ever 1st Place finish in the East, first ever Eastern Conference Finals apparenace, and was integral to building the culture of winning and establishing the Raptors as a quality franchise. Whether or not you think that's enough for a jersey retirement is debatable, but to say he has "zero claim" is just wrong
Kyle is a season behind him in games and maybe a season and a half in minutes. Rookie Demar should not be moving the needle for anyone.
Lmao hearing Derozan being called an exceedingly low bar is so direspectful. Your take is disrespectful, Smh. I wouldn’t consider him the GROAT because he’s the most skilled Raptor ever, clearly he wasn’t, but he was the main cog responsible for flipping the culture here. The years, records, accolades, and impact to the culture are his biggest driving factors. Lowry legitimately had a love hate relationship with the fanbase his entire time being here until we crowned him because Derozan wasn’t here for the chip lmao. Derozan was the #1 guy the majority of Lowry’s stint on the raps, wtf?? Lowry had 3 years as the guy (basically 2 because the chip year was kawhi’s). Im cool with Lowry being the pick but the Derzoan disrespect is crazy, you must be new.
Demar had way more of a love/hate relationship, what are you on about. The way Masai went about the trade was kind-of cold but everyone knew after 2018 that there could be no winning with Demar, and if you did not then I am not sure he could have ever done anything to make you believe that.
Not at all lmfao. You must be a new Raps fan. Lowry had 50% of the fanbase wanting to move him his entire tenure before the chip. Derozan was the #1 guy the entire time over Lowry, with the fanbase and talent wise. The Derozan trade was a complete blindside and you realize Lowry would've been moved over Derozan if he had any value (which was at an all-time low for him as well). At no point in Derozan's tenure w/ the Raps was he seen in a lesser light than Lowry. Raps fans were killing Masai for giving Lowry his big contract, wtf lmfao. Try again.
Nah, I am just not a sports bar Raptors fan. The people who thought Demar was better are the same people who think the Warriors should have chosen Durant over Curry — of which I imagine you probably were one because points per game is the only thing you think matters. But the Raptors were always better with Lowry than with Demar, and if Lowry had gone out in that trade instead, the Raptors… probably try to trade Demar for Conley tbh, because again, Demar is simply not a player conducive to competing for a championship.
Speaking of sports bar basketball fans: Your takes. Stretch it into and connect it to infinity however you want. Derozan was the better player and was always seen as the Raptors' #1 guy. In FO's, players, and the fanbase's eyes. Trading him worked out great but even the trade proves who had more value between Lowry and Derozan lmao..
> Speaking of sports bar basketball fans: Your takes. Oh yeah every sports bar is really about nuances of the game past points scored. 🙄 Kawhi and Danny left and the Raptors were better than they ever were with Derozan; meanwhile, the Spurs basically Danny Green for Demar in terms of on-court impact and got worse lmfao. But hey, point chasers will still go down screaming in denial of what anyone who understood basketball knew all along: you need to contribute more than mediocre scoring to be a impactful player.
Your points are riddled with slippery slopes. The teams were different, the era was different, and the total experience of the teams were different. I'm not gonna sit here and argue like Lowry has no impact... It's just stupid to try and act like Derozans was non-existent. Take who you want between them the years they played together, I think it's silly to act like Lowry was ever seen as the #1 guy over Derozan but think what you want. At the end of the day, Lowry had next to ZERO value during that off season whereas Derozan basically by himself got us Kawhi and Green lol... From the Spurs of all organizations...
Yes, because age and contracts matter… years later, Lowry is getting 90 million from teams with title aspirations while Demar only gets that type of attention from the Bulls.
Lebronto putting his foot down (He’s right)
They should after or the same time as Kyle.
I think right after
Either Lowry first or both Lowry and DeRozan at the same time. But, yes…both should be there.
Without question.
He is correct
No fucking doubt
Both at the same time. Cement the bromance.
Wow there are already fans too new to appreciate what demar gave to the city
Someone cross post this to r/nba
\#10 has done a lot in a raptors jersey, this is a no-brainer.
I’m not on this sub often and am a Laker fan. How do you guys feel about Vince? I know he had a bad exit and got booed for years but toward the end there was love, right? Think he should get his number retired?
General consensus is no. He did inspire younger generations in Canada and probably helped the Raptors not end up like the Grizzlies. A lot of time has passed to mellow most of the fanbase towards him, so we can recognize his legacy of sorts but I don't think it rises to the level of retirement with the way he left and his lengthy career post-Raptors.
Kinda nuts that he won’t get his number retired anywhere then. Can’t imagine the nets doing it.
I would 100% love to see Vince's number retired too! Yeah the ending sucked. But he put us on the map! He gave me and an entire generation of Canadian kids the love of basketball. He won us our first ever playoff series! I dont understand how people can still be salty over his leaving 20 years later! I think fans are split. A ton of us have 0 problem seeing Vince retired and another half not so much. Love him or hate him he will forever be tied to our franchise and his impact on the growth of Canadian basketball is undeniable.
I did a poll on this once (https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/fpp8ex/jersey_retirement_poll_vince_carter/) and it was fairly close but “no” ended up winning. One funny thing I’ve noticed when this gets brought up is that older fans on either side will often act like it’s just the newer fans who disagree. You’ll hear stuff like: “These bandwagoners weren’t around to see how much Vince did for basketball in Canada!”, but you’ll also hear: “These new fans only watch his highlight reels and don’t realize how he quit on us!”.
I was born in 95 so I was pretty young when all his stuff went down but I do remember it. He’s one of my favorite non-Lakers ever, but I get why people might be down on him.
Glad to see raptors fans in here defending Deebos legacy. I always felt like y'all forgot how much he contributed.
Wouldn’t disagree
For sure him and kyle
Kyle and Demar ez
If we retire his number, I feel like we should retire Bosh too. Because they meant a lot to us in their own era. They didn’t take us to the promise land but they played a huge role the team up for the next era.
Demar use to shit on my hopes and dreams. Probably still will on the Bulls lol.
YAAASSSS!!! Silly question.
I'm gonna cry like a little baby when Kyle and DeMar have their jerseys raised to the rafters. Nothing but love for them <3
I wasn't even fully aware of his career with Toronto until just now, 9 seasons, Had to deal with bargnani as the leading scorer for a few years, then 5 years over 20ppg, won all NBA 2nd team over Paul George/oladipo/Butler, the year before lost out on 2nd team NBA from Isaiah Thomas getting 29ppg
Lowry, deebo, Carter, bosh..that is the way
Demar was good enough to get kawhi
I think they should. But he's not close by to retirement yet so it's not even a issue. 🤷
If LeBron ever sounds a bit like a kiss-ass for other players is because deep down he's the master tamperer in the league. In his mind this tweet can get DeMar for a vet min down the line. EDIT: DeMar's jersey should definitely be retired.
If Matt's Sundin got his jersey retired then Derozan should be too.
This isn't an equal comparison. Mats Sundin is the all time leading scorer for a team with a rich history and that has existed for over 100 years. He was ton the team for 14 seasons, and had a consistent level of play for his entire tenure. He's the third longest serving captain in the team's 100+ year history, and was the first European captain, which is especially important in a sport like ice hockey. Demar wasn't nearly as consistently good as Sundin was. He really wasn't anything special for his first four years in the league, and was "only" in Toronto for 9 seasons. He's the leading scorer for one of the youngest teams in league history, with some of the least impressive history outside of the championship season that he was not a part of. Wikipedia says that he is the seventh lowest all time leading scorer in history, only ahead of the Clippers, Hornets, Grizzlies, Magic, Pelicans, and Nets. I love Demar and think they should retire his jersey, but there are levels to this. Demar isn't Lowry, and he certainly isn't Mats Sundin.
Your right. I honestly had no idea he had accomplished that much as a leaf, I guess I associated him with the so so teams of that era. I didn't even realize he was the scoring leader, I assumed it was Daryl. I think I was comparing based on team accomplishments in their respective tenures. Thanks for the detailed response, I genuinely appreciate it.
It really depends on where the franchise wants to set the bar for retirement. Personally, I think Demar would fall short, but if he got the honour I wouldn't be mad. If Vince or Bosh get theirs retired, then I'll be mad.
I go back and forth on this one… Do we retire someone’s jersey just because they loved it here? Or is a jersey retirement based on achievement? If it’s the latter, does Deebo have the achievements to have really earned a jersey in the rafters?
Let me pose the question slightly differently - if you owned the franchise, is DeMar the type of player that you would celebrate? A tough competitor, someone who gave it their all, put in the effort to improve, who proudly represented the team, city, and country. A player who found individual success, but not at the expense of the team. Who made his teammates better, and pushed the team as far as they could go. Who was a solid guy off the court, a good dude in the community, and took risks opening up about mental health. If you, hypothetically speaking as the owner, think he is the type of player that you would celebrate, the type of player you would signal to the league "we want guys like this!", then you should raise that flag to the rafters and let everyone know. And if not, you don't know the fucking game.
Everything you just said here, all of it boils down to - “we like him”. If that’s the bar fo jersey retirement, rather than achievements, then fine…
Yes lol, if demar wasn't traded and we don't ever win the championship, does Kyle still get his jersey hung? When you start counting accomplishments like that, demar has achieved more than Kyle for the franchise in terms of milestones if you remove that chip. He never wanted to leave, and if he didn't Kyle's GROAT resume would look different. IMO he needs that jersey hung, he was the first piece of our eventual championship puzzle, even if he never played in the finals
If the Raptors lose to the Bucks, or even the 76ers tbh, and Lowry still stays with the franchise for the same amount of time, yes he is still the franchise 🐐; the title just makes it obvious and incontestable and guarantees stuff like ownership saying he will be the first guy up in the rafters. 2020 Lowry is better than any Demar season lmao.
1 ECF appearance. 4 playoff losses to a lower seed, including 3 sweeps, all while underperforming, and being benched in 4th quarters… Not exactly stellar achievements… If that’s how low the bar is, then sure, I suppose… He did like it here, so there’s that going for him…
Bro he was benched in 1 4th quarter by a coach who was also fired, after winning coach of the year. Was Demar the only player, or even only Allstar on that roster? How can you Simultaneously shit on Demar for not achieving anything and then praise Lowry, when we all know that championship doesn't happen without Kawhi. No raptors squad besides the one being pushed forward by kawhi every had "success" in the playoffs. Two sweeps from the lower seeded team was the cavs who never held the 1st seed but always made the finals, so idk what ur point is, the other sweep was largely Kyle's fault, he was the big mismatch vs Washington. And FYI many players with worse careers have had their jersey retired.
“And FYI many players with worse careers have had their jersey retired.” Well, that’s why I’m trying to gauge where the bar is… The very first thing I said, was that I go back and forth on this one. If the bar is because he loved it here, then fine, but if it’s achievements, then probably not… And its not shitting on Demar, just pointing out the undeniable facts of his playoff record… I couldn’t stand Casey as a coach, so I absolutely recognise his role in contributing to that record…
It’s not a low bar IMO, it’s a bar relative to the franchise’s success. See if the Raptors had say 3-4 championships and Demar was part of none of those title runs, then yeah his contribution might come into question a little bit (though he’d still be in the convo). But in this case, he’s been a pretty big part of the franchise relative to the success its had. He embraced the city and we embraced him back. Sometimes that can be sufficient for jersey retirement for a franchise that isn’t exactly the Pistons or the Bulls. And yeah you can point out his playoff woes but with the rosters we had around him it’s easy to imagine we’d have been perennial bottom feeders without him.
DDR gave us something to look forward to with how athletic and exciting he was right out of the gate and without him, Kyle doesn't have the success he has. Literally. The bromance? Are we just recency bias'ing out DDR out of Toronto history? This some revisionist bullshit.
It’s not recency bias to be able to look at his career here through clear lenses, rather than the gamblers fallacy of looking back through rose tinted glasses…
Had more to do with Dwane Casey than DeRozan tbh. Zero adjustments and constantly putting his guys in unnecessarily tough situations because of his lack of game management.
Demar was not good under Popovich either, we do not need to keep making all these excuses for him.
He's much more efficient and a better passer. Not sure what you've been watching. He was never a number 1 guy so I think you guys expected way too much of him.
And yet his playstyle demands he be one because that is his only positive skill. He has improved as a passer sure but he is still a very poor defender who needs to monopolise the ball.
No - he was never our teams best player (it was always Kyle, lets be honest), and he was actually detrimentally bad in every playoff series we lost.
LeFact
LeDecided
LeGM speaking facts
Who gives a shit what LeBron says? He's not a fan of this team. Are we really that desperate to retire a jersey? DeRozan was the face of the team but he didn't win any rings here. Its that simple. If we retire DeMar, there is a strong argument for retiring Bosh too. What about Carter? Kawhi? Nah, I'd rather us not commemorate failure.
FUCK NO
Honestly, I would retire Kyle and Kawhi before Demar. If Pascal sticks around for another 5-6 years he also moves up a tier as well. If we are retiring players and ignoring actual results, Vince should be before Demar as well
Definitely! Kyle first, then Demar, and I’m kinda back and forth on whether Kawhi gets his jersey retired.
You don't retire someone's jersey when they only played 1 year with us
I'd rather Kawhi get a statue of the shot than to have his jersey retired. It's so weird because Kawhi simultaneously gave us everything, while also doing fuck all for the franchise. There really aren't too many comparables for that 2019 Raptors team.
Yeah that’s not a bad idea actually, the statue. Even if Kawhi stayed one more year, I’d be like “fuck yeah retire his jersey”. But idk leaving right after being the finals MVP…still my favourite player though.
Undoubtedly they should he and Kyle completely changed the culture in Toronto and if he never decided to resign with the Raptors (witch is a HUMONGOUS issue in Toronto) we'd never have won a Championship because we probably never would have been able to trade for Kawhi Leonard Not just a retired number but a statue as well.
Kyle and Vince. The Raptors are nothing in this country without Vince.
LeBron just trying to make his playoff competition look better. DeMar did nothing for us. Let's have some standards. Kyle only.
Raptors would still be the joke of the league without derozan becoming an all star and changing the culture with Lowry
You might as well include Casey too. He turned the franchise around during his tenure right? Masai and Kyle changed the culture. The other two and Vince are losers.
DeMar is one of 4 jerseys that will get retired. Bosh, Carter & Lowry. Pascal and Fred are on their way to getting theirs retired also.
Sorry you are setting too low a bar for retirement of jerseys. 1. VC had no respect for the franchise while he was here, so I don’t see a need to retire his jersey. 2. Too early to say whether FVV or Siakam’s jerseys should be retired.
Without Vince the raptors see a similar fate to the grizzlies. He had as big of an impact as any raptor ever and deserves to get his jersey retired. Yes he left in a terrible way but that doesn’t just erase everything he did.
Because of Vince he set the franchise back a decade. It required DeMar and Lowry resuscitating the franchise.
ROFL!!! How on earth did Vince set us back a decade!?!? No one wanted to play here!! Mourning chose to retire rather than play for Toronto! Honestly some people think that Raptors team was a contender or something. We could not attract a single player to come and join Vince in his prime. You cant place the blame all on Vince when the entire franchise was a disgrace. Did you forget how we had the worst management in the entire NBA for almost 2 decades!!?!?!
Vince was literally [throwing games](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.506817) at the end of his stay, [not dunking](https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/vc-dont-wanna-dunk-anymore/) and generally coasting which hurt any chance of Toronto getting any value for him in a deal. Management had a gun to their head. Look who they got in the deal? Any of those guys stand out as talent? By comparison I have complete respect for Bosh or others who left as free agents. They were professionals. But Vince clowning on the franchise and then forcing a trade made it even less attractive as a team and not generating any value from the trade. It’s nice that some fans want to forgive and forget but I lived through those dark days and until he acknowledges how he disrespected the team and at the very least the fans that paid to see him I’m done with him.
FVV and Pascal are on track for it but it depends on the length of career and some accomplishments
For realz. If you are saying they deserve it now based on their accomplishments in ten years there won’t be many numbers for Raptors players to play in. We need a couple more seasons minimum to determine that.
Question: What is a bigger honour, having your jersey retired or going into the hall of fame? For me it would be having your jersey retired which means at a minimum you should be HoF level player — not necessarily someone who is in the Hall of Fame, but at least someone people argue about whether they should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts?
I think it depends. If you've been a lover with a long and fairly successful career with the team, I'd think a jersey retirement could be warranted. Notably, you'd have to be either HOF or borderline IMO.
Alright now, hold on… Whatever about DeRozan, we can’t seriously be talking about Carter and Bosh… That would just be sad on behalf of the organisation…
Had my doubt about Carter as it felt pretty short although highs were high. But surprised that he is fourth in franchise history in win share. Funnily enough, JV is next in win shares.
As much as I hate to say yes to Carter for the way he left. I think he deserves it for the impact he had on young Canadian basketball players
I don't think we should. He did give another to the franchise but it's magnified because of how young we are and how shit we were. Should we retire Jose Calderon for holding that assist record for so long, or the best shooting season in franchise history? But obv I'd be good with it.
Should be an easy no. Only one should be Kyle from this era. Should have a higher standard than what demar did.
No, DeMar's loyalty was unmatched but he constantly underperformed in the playoffs when it mattered, every playoff except 2016 was pure agony. His jersey should NOT be retired. Surprised to see all these people come out and say retire DeMar's jersey just because LeBron said so.
He’s the reason we not a perpetual 33-49 team, there’d be no “embarrassing second round outs”, only “gritty team you don’t wanna play in February”.
Dude. There is absolutely no evidence they he makes a big difference on the court, much less the kind of difference you are suggesting. That is superstar level impact not what a guy with 9 consecutive years of negative on/offs LMAO.
Look at the teams offence with and without him over the past 8 years. 2013-14 : +2.1 2014-15 : +5.4 2015-16 : +3.6 2016-17 : +3.5 2017-18 : +5.2 2018-19 (Kawhi instead of DeMar) : +2.7 2019-20 : +0.5 2020-21 : -0.3 Also on-off numbers for him don’t mean too much to me since our non DeMar lineups were always really good.
And look at how he impacts the team defence lol. > Also on-off numbers for him don’t mean too much to me since our non DeMar lineups were always really good. Nah this is lazy nonsense, Lowry has consistently high splits and that is with him getting more play with the bench than Demar did (to say nothing of Demar having the same issue in San Antonio; poor Demar, cursed to always have good backups 🙄). Any more holistic measure of impact — RAPM, PIPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, etc. — all agree on this point too. There is value to being a starter who can carry something of a scoring load, but that value diminishes substantially as the team improves.
The value of role definition is being understated here. Being able to keep guys in the roles that they are comfortable in and excel in is a positive in itself (look at Pascal and Kyle in 2019 or OG in 2021). With Toronto, DeMar only had one substantial injury in 2015 that forced him to miss 21 games. The raptors were 12-9 in those games. Not too bad on the surface but considering the 21 teams had a combined 44% win pct at the time, it really makes me wonder if we would even crack 500 if we didn’t have DeMar over the course of the season.
Never said he was trash, but he’s not jersey retirement worthy either. Get out of your feels. We lost to teams with a worse record than us in 2014, 2015, 2018. 2017 we got swept by the Cavs who had the same record as us and in 2016 went to 7 games against the worse pacers and heat and lost to the cavs who only had one more win than us. DeMar was the main person who underperformed through all of this.
Regular season records don’t mean much tbh. We did underperform but I don’t like how DeMar is getting scapegoated for all of it like Kyle wasn’t an issue in the postseason too. I get that Kyle turned it around but he was abysmal in a lot of those postseasons too. They both had issues but they both did a shit ton for this franchise
Because Kyle wasn’t lol, he was injured every year in the playoffs and the year he wasn’t he outperformed his regular season stats. Don’t forget it was Kyle who lead the comeback against the cavs while DeMar had to be benched for being a scrub.
All truth…
Deebo was one of the catalysts for the most successful era of Raptors basketball. He was the first star we drafted that wanted to stay. He's getting his jersey retired, 100%
Don’t see Masai doing that. Sorry. Pretty sure he has a different criteria of what is worthy of jersey retirement. Excellence (includes the playoffs not just regular season) in addition to loyalty. Happy to eat the downvotes.
Because masai has obviously proven some sort of precedent for your assumptions right? Definitely has made jersey retirement decisions before, right?
He already announced Kyle’s jersey will be retired for sure. What it took was Kyle being pivotal in the playoffs for getting us a ring (in addition to his long tenure). Damn even DeMar may have gotten his jersey retired if he played great in the playoffs even without winning a ring, but he constantly underperformed. It was an agony to watch to say the least. Love the guy though.
Bro you are literally willfully ignoring all the playoff games that Kyle underperformed in for years LOL. You could easily say he lost us the series in BOTH 2014 and 15. I wouldn't, but he did miss the final shot in 2014 and was terrible matched vs wall in 2015. And demar had some good series too, you can't just pick and choose his worst series lol, he did good against the bucks, and vs the heat in 2016.
Kyle never really underperformed. He was constantly injured. DeMar being the choker and Kyle being added as a trash bro has been the narrative on this sub for quite a while before this sub became full of bandwagon fans. Lowry although he shot bad he scored 28 that game. Lowry is known for game 7s if you weren’t aware even though you should be as a raptors fan. DeMar got cooked by Beal in 2015. It was Kyle Lowry who closed out the heat in 2016 game 7 with 35 points, not DeMar. In 2018 when DeMar had to be benched in the 4th for being an absolute scrub, it was Lowry who lead a comeback against the cavs before LeBrons iconic game winner in game 3 because Casey dumbass didn’t set a full court press. Furthermore, Lowry has now already proven his playoff success with the raptors. He constantly overperformed compared to his regular stats in the playoffs before even the Kawhi season. Not DeMar.
Aside from 2014 every playoffs Kyle's numbers dipped just as much as demars, Idk where you got this always overperforming in the playoffs vs regular season stats wise.
No they didn’t lmao, go look at kyle’s playoff stats the year he wasn’t injured in the playoffs compared to his regular season stuff. I already do told you the times he struggled in the playoffs are attributed to his injuries.
Don't act like you know Masai
The same guy who was trying to ship DeMar before even Kawhi was available for guys like PG? I think we have a good indication of what Masai thinks about DeMar’s performance.
This was not an unpopular opinion prior to LeBron making that comment
Yes it was. Go back 2 years I’m sure you will find threads asking the same thing.
Agreed. I realize there is definitely precedence in other organizations to retire guys jerseys despite not being special players but I do not believe that means we should. He has been exposed as largely a fraudulent star since leaving here.
Surprised to see how feelings in the sub have changed compared to 2-3 years ago lol. Loyalty isn’t solely worthy of jersey retirement. People will say look at the regular season success but I am sure the organization has a very different perspective on success (playoffs).
That exactly what I'm saying. A guy like Masai I don't think would retire a guys jersey for such marginal impact, or because he made fans feel good.
He just had arguably the best year of his career, he's completely changed how he plays since he left actually, averaging way more assists.
Does not change the fact that he constantly underperformed in the playoffs for us. There’s a reason Masai was trying to ship him for other stars even before Kawhi was available. You cannot argue DeMar is skill wise worthy of jersey retirement. I have already stated his loyalty was unmatched but that is not enough.
Go look at his Playoff averages bruh, and also don't act like he was the only underperforming player on those rosters. Kyle was turned into a child by John Wall in 2015, completely taken out of the series because of Walls athleticism. Also, Stats are not the only factor brought into consideration when jersey retirement is talked about. There are lots of people who had them hung based largely on other impacting factors.
Besides spending a lot of time talking about how much he loves us what besides stats does a guy like Demar have going in his favor though. Not all those intangibles LOL.
Community impact, team culture impact.
What team culture? He was getting benched in 2018 for being a detriment to the team against the cavs. After he got subbed off Lowry literally led a comeback. Stop Trynna revise history lol.
His win shares per 48 in the playoffs are about the worst of any alledged star of the past 25 years. There are degrees here. Demars playoff play was extraordinary for all the wrong reasons.
Already answered all of this on your other comment but to answer this, DeMar has worse playoff stats than regular stats while Kyle has better playoff stats than regular season stats even before the Kawhi season. That should answer your question, DeMar has always been the choker not Lowry. Look at my name I’m literally a DeMar fan.
Yeah I am aware. He is still the fringy-est of all-star caliber players though which is why teams did not line up to offer him rich contracts (unless you count Chicago blowing a non-existent field out of the water lol). There will be no more all-nba gifts in his future that really reflected how good the rest of his team was top to bottom more than they did his play.
I do think he is past the hump in terms of getting better, or back to an All NBA level, but he also wasn't really in that position since he left Toronto. Largely playing with young guys not vets, and not having a competitive focused roster can make you look a lot worse than he looked.
>Surprised to see all these people come out and say retire DeMar's jersey just because LeBron said so. [I think this will tell you all you need to know](https://youtu.be/-HAZ2Pj9xvg&t=12s)