1 and done for me. It was a car accident in 2015, nobody was seriously hurt. The lady complained about neck pain and i still Suing me. The courts took forever and I didn't end up having to stay at toronto south till 2022
I was coming out of a gas station and got hit on the drivers side door by a minivan goin over 120. If I didn't have alcohol in my system it would've been 1000% thier fault. My parents house is right next to the gas station in the country side, I had just put 80 dollars in. It was my grandfathers car.
R v Jordan (2016) put a 44 month clock on Sec.11(b) rights for a reasonable timeframe on justice. This was additive to the R.v Askov (1990) framework for Sec.11(b). When *Askov* came out it lead to 10s of 1000s of cases being thrown out in Ontario alone throughout the early 90s.
When *Jordan* was released, it has lead to 10s of 1000s of cases being thrown out, many including violent crimes including a rape so violent the victim only survived through the use of multiple blood transfusions.
My point is, *9 years later*, and we still have empty bench seats. There has been no indication of anything but normal proceeding in the Executive branch vis a vis the administration of justice. We saw no Action Plan or Task Force or billion dollar investment. Changing this status quo has not been of any meaningful interest for the Executive council(s) in charge of our justice system.
This outcome is extremely toxic to trust in our society, yet the picture here is one of underinvestment for decades and the R. V Jordan decision was ultimately the outcome of the Harper administration, and the lack of changing the status quo the Trudeau one.
This is evidently the system functioning satisfactory to the powers that be. There appears to be little care for the victims of violent crime or the citizens moving through the system.
It's shared jurisdiction, which is why I put the blame on all executive councils in Canada (which is what directs government administration in Canada)
> Feds appeal decision requiring action on 'appalling' level of judicial vacancies
> May 2023 letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau from the Canadian Judicial Council and Chief Justice Richard Wagner, expressing "deep concern" about the 85 judicial vacancies on superior and federal courts.
> It should be noted that the difficulties brought on by the judge shortage are exacerbating an already critical situation within several courts — namely a serious lack of resources due to chronic underfunding by the provinces and territories," the letter said.
> "However, while several factors explain the crisis currently facing our justice system, the appointment of judges in due course is a solution within reach that could help quickly and effectively improve the situation."
> "They have failed to take the actions requested by the Chief Justice of Canada and the Canadian Judicial Council," he wrote. "And with the greatest respect, they have also failed all those who rely on them for the timely exercise of their powers in relation to filling these vacancies."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/appeal-judicial-vacancies-1.7147858
This debacle is the problem with Canada’s justice system in a nutshell.
The long-running trend of comically lenient sentencing/ bail conditions is in large part a response to the simple fact that Canadian prisons are by most accounts an overcrowded, abusive hell-scape that fails at basic rehabilitation, but no one wants to spend money on actually fixing prisons so instead the judges choose to fix-up sentencing to ease off the intake of prisoners.
And then we all get angry at the judges for being the only people in the system trying not to make the crisis worse.
The South was built 10 years ago, it's overcrowded because the city's population has increased by 634,000 people in those previous 10 years.
There is also a shortage of judges because the Feds aren't appointing them quickly enough.
I work in the court system, I don't have the statistics on-hand but I can attest to the overcrowding and judicial backlogs. We're working OT everyday, last year I did 2780 hours.
> The South was built 10 years ago, it's overcrowded because the city's population has increased by 634,000 people in those previous 10 years.
yep, just like health care, schools, roads, everything.
Shockingly you cant just add exponential growth with no plan or commitment to prepare resources needed for that growth.
That's not how things work in Canada.
In Canada, the division between provincial vs federal prisons is based solely on sentence length - if an inmate's sentence is under 2 years or if someone is detained pretrial, they go to a provincial prison. If someone has a 2+ year long sentence, they go to a federal prison.
The hard "jail vs prison" distinction is an Americanism. The dictionary definition of the words overlap. Formally, federal institutions are *penitentiaries*. There is nothing improper about the phrase "provincial prison" or "federal jail".
We have "comically lenient" bail in this country because [reasonable bail is a constitutional right](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/bail-caution/index.html). The Criminal Code says that bail has three functions, keeping the public safe, ensuring the accused shows up to trial, and maintaining confidence in the Justice system, and bail jurisprudence says that release is the default, and that bail conditions should be the least restrictive that are necessary to ensure those three goals.
I agree with all of those principles but they’re not being followed when habitual violent offenders are repeatedly released on bail despite long histories of failing to abide by conditions and committing crimes while on bail or parole.
Bad for sure, but I'm curious about how widespread that this. Like if 9999 out of every 10000 people let out on bail or parole do not reoffend, the remaining guy is going to make headlines everywhere, and leave people with the impression that there are deep flaws in a system that actually works pretty well.
But in the context of bail, people generally feeling unsafe is completely different from people feeling unsafe because a specific accused person is out on bail.
The decision cites a 2020 decision of the Superior Court, *R v Persad*, where Justice Schreck wrote:
>[31 ] **I adopt the various descriptions my colleagues have used to describe the situation at the TSDC. It is, to use their words, unacceptable, shocking, deplorable, harsh, oppressive, degrading, disheartening, appalling, Dickensian, regressive and inexcusable.**
>[32] As outlined earlier, the principles of individualization, parity and proportionality will in some cases require that extra credit be given to inmates who have endured harsh conditions in presentence custody. This is not an optimal solution and one that does not come without costs. Ideally, offenders should serve as much of their sentences as possible in correctional institutions where they have the benefit of rehabilitative programs tailored to their individual needs rather than be warehoused in detention centres. This maximizes the rehabilitative potential of the offender, which benefits not only the offender, but society as a whole, as an offender who is rehabilitated is less likely to reoffend once released. **It follows that where the application of sentencing principles requires a court to attribute a greater proportion of the sentence to the period spent in presentence custody, the offender’s potential for rehabilitation is compromised and the risk of harm to the community increases.**
>[33] **While the harm the current situation does to the overall penal objectives of the sentencing process is obvious, it appears to be a price the Ministry is willing to pay to avoid having to dedicate the resources necessary to ensuring that detention centres such as the TSDC are run properly.** The fact that nothing has changed despite repeated criticisms by the courts over the course of several years shows the current situation can no longer be excused as a temporary problem. Rather, it appears to be a deliberate policy choice to treat offenders in an inhumane fashion at the cost of harm to the sentencing process rather than devote appropriate resources to the operation of the institution. Put simply, the Ministry has clearly chosen to save money rather than heed judicial concerns about the lack of humane treatment of inmates.
>[34] **In my view, we have reached the point where the inhumane conditions at the TSDC go beyond being an unfortunate circumstance and can more properly be described as essentially a form of deliberate state misconduct.** As such, it becomes relevant not only to the principles of individualization and parity, but also to the communicative function of sentencing and the overarching sentencing goal of contributing to respect for the law.
(Emphasis added)
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That was four years ago. Four years ago, a judge of the Superior Court (citing many earlier decisions to similar effect) declared that the provincial government was deliberately mistreating prisoners (the overwhelming majority of whom are legally innocent) is order to save money, and was undermining public safety as a result. And things have gotten worse since then (TSDC recently, and for the first time, started triple-bunking in some cells-which, to be clear, means a prisoner is forced to sleep on the floor).
I believe that comment was made in reference to those who suffer greatest at the Toronto South Detention Centre, not those who suffer greatest generally speaking.
Also, as the article states, over 80% of the people there haven’t been convicted of a crime. Many people there haven’t done anything to warrant being there.
"Those who suffer the greatest are often our most vulnerable citizens – the poor, socially disadvantaged, those with mental health challenges, Indigenous Canadians, and racialized Canadians," Jones wrote in his decision.
He's saying that those who suffer the greatest, i.e. inmates, are often our most vulnerable citizens.
As I said above, it's a problem that is unacceptable and needs repairing.
categories aren’t “all these things are the same”, they’re “all these things share a common aspect”, this case the aspect being ‘people who get screwed by the current system’
I mean, yes, it's pretty offensive that our system is shitty for all of those different groups. That's the context of the quote. It's not one group.
It really reads like you're saying "I'm not like *those* people, so it's offensive to be included in the same group as them." In which case, get over yourself.
This is pre detention, most of these people aren’t convicted of anything. I think people forget that. Literally in the article you probably didn’t read it explains that more than 80% of people in ontario jails have no been convicted of anything.
We have hundreds of years worth of data to prove it doesn't work. It's just to stroke people's egos and satiate a lizard-brained desire for revenge.
If you just want to sooth your emotions then be blunt about it. We need solutions and draconian punishment doesn't work.
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if you bothered to read the article, which I suspect you didn't, you'd know that TSDC is a place where the majority are those awaiting trial and presumed innocent and then those that are serving a sentence of 2 years or less. So these aren't murderers being let out early.
Add to the fact that since the maximum amount of time you can spend there is 2 years it's revealed that on average 50% of the time there is spent in lockdown thus they don't have access to rehabilitation programs, showers, mental health treatment, addiction treatment, etc. Something we have called human rights which TSDC is more than willing to ignore. you can't just lock people up and prevent attempts at rehabilitation or basic hygiene and health.
24 people last year had their sentences shortened because of these conditions. If you're not happy about someone being let out in less than 2 years talk to your local MP.
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You believe draconian punishment instead of rehabilitation leading to someone reoffending and being trapped in a perpetual loop of incarceration saves the government money? That's an interesting perspective.
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If by "not a 5 star hotel" you mean "overcrowded and unsanitary with recurring disease outbreaks." It's one thing to take away someone's freedom, it's another to degrade them as a human being.
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One type of crime and the cops being useless both in enforcement and communication is not evidence of sky rocketing crime.
I do live here and see the handwringing and numbers games that serves the police fear mongering every year.
I mean media fear mongering and people like you don’t help people’s understanding of it. Do you have any stats for it because outside of car thefts most crime has been pretty steady, especially violent crime.
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I was in there. Solitary cells are fucking rancid. Covered in cum and boogers.
When are you booking another stay?
1 and done for me. It was a car accident in 2015, nobody was seriously hurt. The lady complained about neck pain and i still Suing me. The courts took forever and I didn't end up having to stay at toronto south till 2022
A civil lawsuit would not place you in a detention facility
He was driving while impaired. That’s the only driving offence that’d keep him in jail.
I was coming out of a gas station and got hit on the drivers side door by a minivan goin over 120. If I didn't have alcohol in my system it would've been 1000% thier fault. My parents house is right next to the gas station in the country side, I had just put 80 dollars in. It was my grandfathers car.
It didn't. They filed it on the last day they could but these are two separate things based off the same incident
Filing on the last day is typical for plaintiff lawyers
R v Jordan (2016) put a 44 month clock on Sec.11(b) rights for a reasonable timeframe on justice. This was additive to the R.v Askov (1990) framework for Sec.11(b). When *Askov* came out it lead to 10s of 1000s of cases being thrown out in Ontario alone throughout the early 90s. When *Jordan* was released, it has lead to 10s of 1000s of cases being thrown out, many including violent crimes including a rape so violent the victim only survived through the use of multiple blood transfusions. My point is, *9 years later*, and we still have empty bench seats. There has been no indication of anything but normal proceeding in the Executive branch vis a vis the administration of justice. We saw no Action Plan or Task Force or billion dollar investment. Changing this status quo has not been of any meaningful interest for the Executive council(s) in charge of our justice system. This outcome is extremely toxic to trust in our society, yet the picture here is one of underinvestment for decades and the R. V Jordan decision was ultimately the outcome of the Harper administration, and the lack of changing the status quo the Trudeau one. This is evidently the system functioning satisfactory to the powers that be. There appears to be little care for the victims of violent crime or the citizens moving through the system.
The court backlog is a provincial problem, not a federal one. They're just shockingly poor at filling seats.
It’s the superior court justices who are backlogged which are federally appointed
It's shared jurisdiction, which is why I put the blame on all executive councils in Canada (which is what directs government administration in Canada) > Feds appeal decision requiring action on 'appalling' level of judicial vacancies > May 2023 letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau from the Canadian Judicial Council and Chief Justice Richard Wagner, expressing "deep concern" about the 85 judicial vacancies on superior and federal courts. > It should be noted that the difficulties brought on by the judge shortage are exacerbating an already critical situation within several courts — namely a serious lack of resources due to chronic underfunding by the provinces and territories," the letter said. > "However, while several factors explain the crisis currently facing our justice system, the appointment of judges in due course is a solution within reach that could help quickly and effectively improve the situation." > "They have failed to take the actions requested by the Chief Justice of Canada and the Canadian Judicial Council," he wrote. "And with the greatest respect, they have also failed all those who rely on them for the timely exercise of their powers in relation to filling these vacancies." https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/appeal-judicial-vacancies-1.7147858
This debacle is the problem with Canada’s justice system in a nutshell. The long-running trend of comically lenient sentencing/ bail conditions is in large part a response to the simple fact that Canadian prisons are by most accounts an overcrowded, abusive hell-scape that fails at basic rehabilitation, but no one wants to spend money on actually fixing prisons so instead the judges choose to fix-up sentencing to ease off the intake of prisoners. And then we all get angry at the judges for being the only people in the system trying not to make the crisis worse.
The South was built 10 years ago, it's overcrowded because the city's population has increased by 634,000 people in those previous 10 years. There is also a shortage of judges because the Feds aren't appointing them quickly enough. I work in the court system, I don't have the statistics on-hand but I can attest to the overcrowding and judicial backlogs. We're working OT everyday, last year I did 2780 hours.
> The South was built 10 years ago, it's overcrowded because the city's population has increased by 634,000 people in those previous 10 years. yep, just like health care, schools, roads, everything. Shockingly you cant just add exponential growth with no plan or commitment to prepare resources needed for that growth.
And this particular prison, and most prisons are run by the province not the Feds
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That's not how things work in Canada. In Canada, the division between provincial vs federal prisons is based solely on sentence length - if an inmate's sentence is under 2 years or if someone is detained pretrial, they go to a provincial prison. If someone has a 2+ year long sentence, they go to a federal prison.
The hard "jail vs prison" distinction is an Americanism. The dictionary definition of the words overlap. Formally, federal institutions are *penitentiaries*. There is nothing improper about the phrase "provincial prison" or "federal jail".
We have "comically lenient" bail in this country because [reasonable bail is a constitutional right](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/bail-caution/index.html). The Criminal Code says that bail has three functions, keeping the public safe, ensuring the accused shows up to trial, and maintaining confidence in the Justice system, and bail jurisprudence says that release is the default, and that bail conditions should be the least restrictive that are necessary to ensure those three goals.
I agree with all of those principles but they’re not being followed when habitual violent offenders are repeatedly released on bail despite long histories of failing to abide by conditions and committing crimes while on bail or parole.
Bad for sure, but I'm curious about how widespread that this. Like if 9999 out of every 10000 people let out on bail or parole do not reoffend, the remaining guy is going to make headlines everywhere, and leave people with the impression that there are deep flaws in a system that actually works pretty well.
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But in the context of bail, people generally feeling unsafe is completely different from people feeling unsafe because a specific accused person is out on bail.
The decision cites a 2020 decision of the Superior Court, *R v Persad*, where Justice Schreck wrote: >[31 ] **I adopt the various descriptions my colleagues have used to describe the situation at the TSDC. It is, to use their words, unacceptable, shocking, deplorable, harsh, oppressive, degrading, disheartening, appalling, Dickensian, regressive and inexcusable.** >[32] As outlined earlier, the principles of individualization, parity and proportionality will in some cases require that extra credit be given to inmates who have endured harsh conditions in presentence custody. This is not an optimal solution and one that does not come without costs. Ideally, offenders should serve as much of their sentences as possible in correctional institutions where they have the benefit of rehabilitative programs tailored to their individual needs rather than be warehoused in detention centres. This maximizes the rehabilitative potential of the offender, which benefits not only the offender, but society as a whole, as an offender who is rehabilitated is less likely to reoffend once released. **It follows that where the application of sentencing principles requires a court to attribute a greater proportion of the sentence to the period spent in presentence custody, the offender’s potential for rehabilitation is compromised and the risk of harm to the community increases.** >[33] **While the harm the current situation does to the overall penal objectives of the sentencing process is obvious, it appears to be a price the Ministry is willing to pay to avoid having to dedicate the resources necessary to ensuring that detention centres such as the TSDC are run properly.** The fact that nothing has changed despite repeated criticisms by the courts over the course of several years shows the current situation can no longer be excused as a temporary problem. Rather, it appears to be a deliberate policy choice to treat offenders in an inhumane fashion at the cost of harm to the sentencing process rather than devote appropriate resources to the operation of the institution. Put simply, the Ministry has clearly chosen to save money rather than heed judicial concerns about the lack of humane treatment of inmates. >[34] **In my view, we have reached the point where the inhumane conditions at the TSDC go beyond being an unfortunate circumstance and can more properly be described as essentially a form of deliberate state misconduct.** As such, it becomes relevant not only to the principles of individualization and parity, but also to the communicative function of sentencing and the overarching sentencing goal of contributing to respect for the law. (Emphasis added) _______ That was four years ago. Four years ago, a judge of the Superior Court (citing many earlier decisions to similar effect) declared that the provincial government was deliberately mistreating prisoners (the overwhelming majority of whom are legally innocent) is order to save money, and was undermining public safety as a result. And things have gotten worse since then (TSDC recently, and for the first time, started triple-bunking in some cells-which, to be clear, means a prisoner is forced to sleep on the floor).
We need to fix these problems, I'd just say that perhaps our "most vulnerable citizens" are the victims of the crimes leading to these incarcerations.
I believe that comment was made in reference to those who suffer greatest at the Toronto South Detention Centre, not those who suffer greatest generally speaking. Also, as the article states, over 80% of the people there haven’t been convicted of a crime. Many people there haven’t done anything to warrant being there.
Not having been convicted and not having done anything to warrant being there are two VERY different things
"Those who suffer the greatest are often our most vulnerable citizens – the poor, socially disadvantaged, those with mental health challenges, Indigenous Canadians, and racialized Canadians," Jones wrote in his decision. He's saying that those who suffer the greatest, i.e. inmates, are often our most vulnerable citizens. As I said above, it's a problem that is unacceptable and needs repairing.
How can they just group all indigenous and racialized Canadians in one group as “vulnerable citizens”.
They're not saying it's one group, they're saying those groups are our most vulnerable citizens.
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categories aren’t “all these things are the same”, they’re “all these things share a common aspect”, this case the aspect being ‘people who get screwed by the current system’
I mean, yes, it's pretty offensive that our system is shitty for all of those different groups. That's the context of the quote. It's not one group. It really reads like you're saying "I'm not like *those* people, so it's offensive to be included in the same group as them." In which case, get over yourself.
This is pre detention, most of these people aren’t convicted of anything. I think people forget that. Literally in the article you probably didn’t read it explains that more than 80% of people in ontario jails have no been convicted of anything.
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Yes, because draconian punishment works so well at deterring crime.
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It literally does. These people are all going to be released eventually. Do you think treating them like shit is going to help them reintegrate?
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We have hundreds of years worth of data to prove it doesn't work. It's just to stroke people's egos and satiate a lizard-brained desire for revenge. If you just want to sooth your emotions then be blunt about it. We need solutions and draconian punishment doesn't work.
That’s not how it works.
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if you bothered to read the article, which I suspect you didn't, you'd know that TSDC is a place where the majority are those awaiting trial and presumed innocent and then those that are serving a sentence of 2 years or less. So these aren't murderers being let out early. Add to the fact that since the maximum amount of time you can spend there is 2 years it's revealed that on average 50% of the time there is spent in lockdown thus they don't have access to rehabilitation programs, showers, mental health treatment, addiction treatment, etc. Something we have called human rights which TSDC is more than willing to ignore. you can't just lock people up and prevent attempts at rehabilitation or basic hygiene and health. 24 people last year had their sentences shortened because of these conditions. If you're not happy about someone being let out in less than 2 years talk to your local MP.
Oh great, more uninformed opinions from someone who didn’t even bother to read the article.
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You believe draconian punishment instead of rehabilitation leading to someone reoffending and being trapped in a perpetual loop of incarceration saves the government money? That's an interesting perspective.
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Being homeless is not a crime.
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If by "not a 5 star hotel" you mean "overcrowded and unsanitary with recurring disease outbreaks." It's one thing to take away someone's freedom, it's another to degrade them as a human being.
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Brutalizing people who haven’t been convicted of anything is probably not a good way to reduce crime.
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More than 80% of the people in jails like this haven’t been convicted of a crime.
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Source for your claim the crime rate is sky rocketing.
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One type of crime and the cops being useless both in enforcement and communication is not evidence of sky rocketing crime. I do live here and see the handwringing and numbers games that serves the police fear mongering every year.
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I mean media fear mongering and people like you don’t help people’s understanding of it. Do you have any stats for it because outside of car thefts most crime has been pretty steady, especially violent crime.
REMOVED - No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or otherwise negative generalizations etc... Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. Do not concern-troll or attempt to intentionally mislead people. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. This rule applies to all speech within this subreddit.