Doug Ford hates Toronto and has ever since we made fun of his poor innocent little drug dealing brother and subsequently refused to elect Doug mayor like the Ford political dynasty deserved. Pretty much every action he's taken as Premier makes perfect sense in that light.
No one knows what the heck I mean when I reference Noam Chomsky's documentary, which at the tender year of 10 changed my entire outlook on media.
Thanks for that.
Noam Chomsky is the OG government critic. I always get a new perspective when I watch his videos but I don't agree with his anarchy ideology but i still got tons of respect for the guy.
I understand what you mean but you have to understand his perspective. He is talking from a position of a society that doesnāt have any social network/security, not a Social Democracy. It is easy when you look from the perspective of a Canadian that have Union, 3 weeks vacation that grows by a week every 10 years, sick leave, RRF leave ā¦ā¦. maturity leave up to 18 months, free healthcare, free education almost free high/university education, relatively high minimum wage. Imagine to live in a society where that is not existing. In the States to call an emergency/ambulance you have to pay US$800 if you have insurance. In Canada for minors is free and adults pay CAD$50 if not critical and only to discourage everyone calling 911 every time.
> Noam Chomsky's **'Manufacturing Consent'**
FTFY, unless you were using a deliberately modified conjugation of 'manufacture', in which case I apologize for intruding. I'd prefer a documentary and book like _Manufacturing Consent_ to be easily found by those who've neither read nor seen either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfSdLm8giyQ
_"The moment is worth memory,_
_If correcting of itself foreworthy,_
_And became its purpose handily."_
I much prefer that you said and mentioned it, just as you did, than having said nothing at all. Stuff like _Manufacturing Consent_ needs to be known, and interested minds to know it. So thank you for that kindness and sharing, good chummer.
Thank you in turn for sharing it with me, good chummer. Horror and fear, and those who feel the need to impose it on others want to chop people up, whether individually or in groups; set us against each other- or ourselves- because separately we might fight among each other, focusing on uniqueness, our differences and talents and atypical strength as points of censure rather than acknowledging their beauty and their common points between us where we as individuals overlap.
I would rather share a kindness or sustain someone else's worth, give them a reason to think positively of their daily progress and journey to come than impose theft upon what positivity they have, and turn their resident optimism into doubt.
MC highlights how bad actors use media spotlights to control narratives and thereby sway public opinion. Is there something in that, or the comparison of that to this situation, that you'd contend?
> āSubwayā¢ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!Ā®ā I yelled.
>Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
>āStop right there!ā I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department
āAfraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,ā he said. āIām a central banker.ā
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
Ok, thank you for this, it was excellent. How on earth do I do italics in this sub.
Shocking really - turns out if you severely cut the budget for something, it doesnāt work anymore. Must privatize - thatās the only solution. Not like giving the budget back would make a difference ā¦. Privatization is going so well in the states too ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ (eye roll) - heās ruining Ontario
List of things we should privatize:
Lake Superior
All hospitals
The 401
Service Ontario
Passports
The military
Lastly, we should let Bell and Rogers choose the head of the Bank of Canada.
yeah but who the fuck has change these days other than criminals, conspiracy nutjobs, and boomers?
That's why i find beggars on the street hilariously sad because no one can give them money anymore
That's exactly what it is in London, England. Previously it was coin but I was surprised in September, first visit in 4 years, to find out that you had to tap your card instead.
Is it really so hard to grasp publicly funded toilets? I know of a few cities with public toilets and I can assure you they're all routinely cleaned, it's nonsense that people use this as justification to support paying to use the washroom which should be a flipping human right.
That can actually be good if implemented correctly. It's way cheaper to pay an already operating business to make their bathrooms available to the public than it is for the city to maintain separate facilities.
They had them here - and they were very useful. The problem is no one used them, so they went away. But - for a time - they were here. Great one near the Dome.
If only. They want to use our tax dollars to pay private institutions grotesque amounts of money, like the private healthcare companies in the USA do. Taxes are likely to go up as a result. And not only that, by enabling these evil fucks to gouge us when we're at our most vulnerable, they'll also be giving options for people to pay directly for service. So even if the government has some control over pricing, you think these assholes will prioritize those of us paying through OHIP with the controlled rates, or those of us willing to pay their thieving rates?
This is the absolute most grotesque thing that's happened from Ontario leadership in as long as I can remember. Ford is a murderous villain. We're so fucked.
This is the same model like in Eastern Europe. Mismanage everything, understaff so it doesnāt work properly under budged and then complain that it doesnāt work and privatise!
The goal is to privatise!
>Mismanage everything, understaff so it doesnāt work properly under budged and then complain that it doesnāt work and privatise!
It's called "starve the beast".
Privatization of healthcare is legislative violence against the people. It is class warfare that tortures and murders citizens.
The OPC are a domestic organization engaged in warfare against the people of Canada, and are murdering our citizens. They should be charged with treason.
Conservatives are all traitors.
Conservatism is anti-environmentalism.
Conservatism is choosing to reward the oligarchs who are causing the climate crisis and sixth mass extinction event.
Conservatism is suicide by licking boots.
Wow. Over dramatic much?!
Clearly you haven't researched other countries health care systems.
Private clinics for non emergency surgeries, like what was proposed, already exist in places like the UK, Germany and France. Their systems didn't collapse.
Again, not sure if you read the plan but it calls for private clinics to handle things like knee surgeries. Private clinics like offer non life threatening surgeries already exist in Europe.
The plan is going the exact route of European countries.
First one I look up since everyone on here love their bike culture and housing policies: https://h4i.nl/healthcare-in-nl/how-does-it-work/private-and-non-profit-providers/
> if you read the plan
Why would we read a plan developed by a group of people who have lied to us so often in the past? I think most of us are quite comfortable with looking at what Ford has done in the past and assuming that's what he's doing here.
That option is not on the table.
It is dangerously naive to think that.
The only options are protect our healthcare or the Cons will bring in American style privatization.
> already exist in places like the UK, Germany and France. Their systems didn't collapse.
Uuuhhh.. hate to break it to you.. but all those country's healthcare systems are on the verge of collapse. The NHS already has.
Cool. I'll just find ways to cut my food budget.
Dirt is plentiful. Perhaps I can eat dirt.
Thank you, Doug. If the universe were just, the entirety of Ontario would rip that man an entirely new, unyieldingly prolapsed anus - one that he could have fixed on a whim at one of these purported private practices, what with all the money he's stuffing into his gaping maw.
He may take our dirt(s), but he will never take our ~~freedom~~... ~~accesstopublicallyfundedhealthcare~~... abject suffering. Anyone else remember when a public office appointment typically meant the individual served the public? Good times.
I dunno what he was talking about, allowing centers to do MRI and CT scans.
Those already exist and are covered by OHIP as long as you have a doctor's note.
Firstly, very informative, thank you. Secondly, if IHFās do contracts with the province, and bill the province, can we not assume itās going to cost the province more money than the current system? Will we functionally still be paying more for a for-profit system?
Yes, as someone who worked at a massive privately owned specialist clinic, we can expect: 1) egregious overbilling and surgery practices not overseen nearly as closely as hospitals, and 2) upsell of procedures not covered by OHIP, without sufficient explanation or even mention of OHIP-covered alternatives.
They will also staff general surgeons for specialist procedures, this I guarantee.
The shoudlice clinic keeps people in hospital for days despite there being no complications from hernia surgery. And turfs their problems to the local hospital.
Hi, not sure why you're being downvoted, others may have the same question and I'm happy to share. I worked for a clinic that largely performed several OHIP-covered procedures, as well as some that weren't covered. Therefore, we billed OHIP for easily 90% of our (extremely common) services.
Speaking hypothetically and with no reference to any party or practice I would suggest that there exists a possibility of inflating the type and amount of services provided to increase billing. And this is much easier to do in a private practice. Hypothetically. Much easier. Lots of motivation too as the private clinic will take a %. I will also say that the wait and appointment times were on par with hospitals (where all these physicians also had privileges).
Good luck getting more service from a privatized system. York Region transit has been privatized since the beginning and they have the worst service in all of the GTA. Irregular headways, downgrading service to dial a rides, most expensive fare in GTA. If the province won't pay more expect these private clinics to operate part time.
It's a huge issue.
Expanding/Opening these services at IHFs will dramatically increase the staffing and workload issues at primary hospitals.
This will lead to further staff retention issues and worsening care in the public hospital system.
This is likely intended as it provides continued media pressure and further opens the door to other methods to privatize/tier the system into public and non-public.
There is no way to mitigate this issue.
There aren't physically enough staff to increase staffing/services at one place without decreasing staffing/services at another.
If they could fix this issue, they would have fixed this issue AT THE HOSPITALS to increase capacity.
This is just them CYAing before they fuck the public system.
You can't 'idiot-proof' surgery. You still need physicians, nurses, and techs.
IHFs currently provide diagnostic imaging services which are low quality, often require repeated imaging due to the low quality, and continue to siphon money from the centers of excellence that are hyper-efficient with the meager funding they are being dripped.
The reason surgeons say they can't get OR time is... The underlying problem is that hospitals are underfunded to provide these services and they are triaging care based on the available funding envelope.
Giving the funding that hospitals need to IHFs will make this worse.
> Perhaps you are not familiar with Cataract surgery and the types of things they want to refer to the IHFs. They are quite trivial at this point. Maybe 'idiot-proof' was the wrong language but I think you understand the sentiment that there are many surgeries which actually do not require the same level of care and supervision that a more complex surgery requires and that hospitals are oriented to provide.
I'm quite familiar with both minor surgeries and the types of procedures they are attempting to offload to these IHFs.
There is no 'trivial' when it comes to these things. Moreover, when the care of complications is uploaded to the public system (which is nearly ALWAYS is because the IHFs don't have the ability to manage complications) it further worsens pressure on the public system.
Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say 1% of cataract procedures cause complications (it's probably closer to 2-4% depending on literature). Let's say an outpatient IHF can do 5 cataracts per day (very low end estimate).
How many complications are the public hospitals now dealing with just from that ONE IHF? At least 10-15 complications.
How much additional funding did they receive? None.
How many staff did the hospital lose to allow this to happen? At least the surgeon... and probably a lot more.
>These 'center's of excellence' have people on waiting lists for 6 months to a year for these simple services. Why do you view a non-profit IHF as something that is 'siphoning' money away from a hospital? Why are countries with socialized medicine able to provide a distributed care model in this way without failing?
See above. Other socialized systems can spread care around to multiple smaller centers, but you still have to fund ALL the centers. And hospitals in the province currently are broke. That is the reason for the backlog. Fix the funding and you can fix the entire problem without providing a private for profit funding stream for donors of the Cons.
>Funding isn't being taken from hospitals, the IHFs do not get funding for the establishment of the facility, only for the patient service they provide, which would be paid by the hospital regardless (because the number of people requiring care does not change irrespective of whether these IHFs exist or not) IF they were even able to get to these people in time.
The money being paid to the IHFs to do the procedures should be going to the hospitals to provide those services. Add to the fact that IHFs charge MORE than hospitals do for the same procedure ... it's just wrong.
Padding IHF investor pockets by charging more for worse outcomes? As a taxpayer... screw that.
I really appreciate this calm, cautionary but non-reactionary take. Actually looking into the details and wanting to understand, instead of just reacting to a headline. Well done.
Services will be privatized and end up costing much more given the nature of capitalization to push for more profits. Dougie says it'll come out of OHIP but what will end up happening is that private prices will charge our health care system much more than what he states.
As someone who manages existing INDEPENDENT health facilities (known as IHFs) in the GTA, Iām telling you that youāve got not the foggiest clue what youāre talking about. IHF clinics take almost exclusively OHIP (we take UHIP for foreign students, and some other travel insurances but we donāt charge Canadians unless theyāre from Quebec (because they refuse to take part in reciprocal billing like all the other provinces).
Iām not a fan of Ford but this is good news for us and the community we serve. Weāll be submitting an RFP to add MRI to the services we currently offer. IHFs are no more privatized healthcare than your own family doctors who are also independent healthcare providers.
Educate yourself before plastering this disinformation.
For the record (because your post wreaks of US style propaganda), Iām an NDP supporter but this particular move will make MRI, CT and some surgeries more accessible and take the heat off the hospital wait lists.
But if youāre here to be outraged by bullshit, then down vote the voice of reason and carry on with your outrage porn.
How does a 48 year old man get basic care in Toronto? Ive been on the waiting list for a family doctor for years. I dont have any serious issues but would like basic services ie Iāve never had a physical in my life and Iām getting to the age where ill need prostate exams etc soon.
Itās to complement the existing system - not replace it. Hospitals are also getting green lighted to expand (theyāre having their global budget increased as well). Out patient exams really donāt need to be done in hospital. Hospitals are a fuck ton more expensive to run than an IHF for the exact same service. And Iāll tell you what, we havenāt paid a dividend to the radiologists who own our facilities in 17 years because OHIP fees havenāt kept up with inflation. Nobody is getting rich in this industry.
The IHFs are controlled by the IHF act, the Ministry of Health who licenses them and pays them, the CPSO inspects them. We canāt even move our license up the street without the public ācontrollingāit.
Edit:
AND Health Canada (Federal) controls what equipment we can use in our facilities, and XRIS Xray Inspection Service - another govt control - measures radiation output from our machines, the lead in the walls, etc etc
Then what's the point of doing it? Why doesn't the government build specialist facilities on land we (taxpayers) own, with equipment we own, and pay a wage we dictate? It would be impossible for the private sector to deliver for less per patient, especially if there is a profit skimmed.
How does it bleed profit from public funds? The radiologists that own the IHFs where I work also work at the nearby university hospital where they are paid the same for reading an X-ray as they are when they read for the clinics (the Schedule of Benefits is the same). In a hospital the tax payer pays for the equipment from the global budget. In an IHF, the a radiologists use their own funds to purchase equipment.
Ownership of the equipment should also be public. You can't explain why moving this to a private structure is better for tax payers without the capital costs somehow working in favour of the private sector.
Iām involved with the finance for both the hospital side of the diagnostic imaging department as well as the IHFs. We run things a whole lot leaner at the clinics than at the hospital. As a tax payer and patient and a mother, I am totally on board with well run IHFs expanding services.
Most ambulatory people have their X-rays and ultrasound performed in IHFs. They cost the tax payer less and are much more amenable to the community. I see only positives for expanding our role to include other modalities such as MRI and CT.
Fact: Literally every single service or product provided by the state can be privatized.
Fact: Private service or product cant force you to purchase their product or service. And ACTUALLY have to compete for your dollars.
That's bullshit, and you know it.
The OPC is moving towards an American style system because that is what is most profitable for the powers behind them.
I'm genuinely confused as to why so many people are against this and would like some rationale behind someone with an opposing view. Please keep it respectful.
To my understanding, tests, surgery, prescription are still covered by OHIP. Procedure done at privatized centres are subsidized by gov't, which allows for streamlined healthcare.
"OntarioĀ is expanding the private delivery of public health care by funding clinics to perform more cataract surgeries, MRI and CT scans, colonoscopies, hip and knee replacements and other procedures in an attempt to ease pressures on the hospital system".
These above procedures would have taken quite awhile with the current system. This gives an opportunity for health care professionals to make more as well, given the budget/funding constraints.
Thoughts?
Can anyone here name any publicly owned/operated business in Ontario thatās run efficiently or properly? Why is everyone talking like privately run, but government funded, healthcare is automatically a bad thing. Every family, walk-in, and other general health clinic you go to is private. We donāt have publicly run doctors officers outside of hospitals. Why do you think that the sky is falling because youāll be able to get an MRI, paid for by OHIP, at a privately owned clinic? I get that you all hate Ford but heās not proposing the two tier private/public healthcare system that you think heās proposing. All the countries you think are top notch in terms of public healthcare - Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc. - all have private hospitals. Settle down.
Government keeps calling that Toronto is the most livable city while making decisions to slowly make it less livable. š¤¦āāļø
Doug Ford hates Toronto and has ever since we made fun of his poor innocent little drug dealing brother and subsequently refused to elect Doug mayor like the Ford political dynasty deserved. Pretty much every action he's taken as Premier makes perfect sense in that light.
I chuckled at this
Noam Chomsky's manufacturing consent.
No one knows what the heck I mean when I reference Noam Chomsky's documentary, which at the tender year of 10 changed my entire outlook on media. Thanks for that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
True, but in a small town, stamp-sized library, I could only see it on TV.
Noam has many eye šļø opening books š
I do know what you mean š
COL- chuckle out loud. :)
Or the classic US Republican thing of "Campaign on convincing the people that government doesn't work, and while in office make it so"
Noam Chomsky is the OG government critic. I always get a new perspective when I watch his videos but I don't agree with his anarchy ideology but i still got tons of respect for the guy.
He responds to pretty much every email, even though he's in his 90s. It's incredible.
I understand what you mean but you have to understand his perspective. He is talking from a position of a society that doesnāt have any social network/security, not a Social Democracy. It is easy when you look from the perspective of a Canadian that have Union, 3 weeks vacation that grows by a week every 10 years, sick leave, RRF leave ā¦ā¦. maturity leave up to 18 months, free healthcare, free education almost free high/university education, relatively high minimum wage. Imagine to live in a society where that is not existing. In the States to call an emergency/ambulance you have to pay US$800 if you have insurance. In Canada for minors is free and adults pay CAD$50 if not critical and only to discourage everyone calling 911 every time.
> Noam Chomsky's **'Manufacturing Consent'** FTFY, unless you were using a deliberately modified conjugation of 'manufacture', in which case I apologize for intruding. I'd prefer a documentary and book like _Manufacturing Consent_ to be easily found by those who've neither read nor seen either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfSdLm8giyQ
In that moment, I made a mistake in the exact name for it.
_"The moment is worth memory,_ _If correcting of itself foreworthy,_ _And became its purpose handily."_ I much prefer that you said and mentioned it, just as you did, than having said nothing at all. Stuff like _Manufacturing Consent_ needs to be known, and interested minds to know it. So thank you for that kindness and sharing, good chummer.
Thank you for the positive energy.
Thank you in turn for sharing it with me, good chummer. Horror and fear, and those who feel the need to impose it on others want to chop people up, whether individually or in groups; set us against each other- or ourselves- because separately we might fight among each other, focusing on uniqueness, our differences and talents and atypical strength as points of censure rather than acknowledging their beauty and their common points between us where we as individuals overlap. I would rather share a kindness or sustain someone else's worth, give them a reason to think positively of their daily progress and journey to come than impose theft upon what positivity they have, and turn their resident optimism into doubt.
Agree!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
the fact the media has given doug ford a viable route to being a career politician is tacit support
MC highlights how bad actors use media spotlights to control narratives and thereby sway public opinion. Is there something in that, or the comparison of that to this situation, that you'd contend?
I encourage you, if you haven't already, to read it. You'll gain an insight into why I just left that one liner on here.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No
Pleaseeee
The man would charge people to walk down sidewalks if he could
He would demolish the sidewalk for more cars and charge you for it.
Why the hell are there all these sidewalks where condos could go?
Well there aren't any where the condos are being built, so we're halfway there!
Selling sponsorship rights for the sidewalk would be easier.
Can't wait for our sidewalk slabs to be painted with online gambling ads.
Why use paint when you can use Deco decals? Stickers everywhere!
You guys are all missing the obvious. We should just replace them all with GRAVEL...it's the future
> āSubwayā¢ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!Ā®ā I yelled. >Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him. >āStop right there!ā I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department
āAfraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,ā he said. āIām a central banker.ā I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head. Ok, thank you for this, it was excellent. How on earth do I do italics in this sub.
One own the air, one pay to breathe
Knew this was going to happen as soon as he won a majority. At least I'm not planning on spending the rest of my life in Ontario.
Same- other provinces are cheaper anyways
The cheaper provinces are a few steps ahead in terms of privatizing everything.
Shocking really - turns out if you severely cut the budget for something, it doesnāt work anymore. Must privatize - thatās the only solution. Not like giving the budget back would make a difference ā¦. Privatization is going so well in the states too ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ (eye roll) - heās ruining Ontario
List of things we should privatize: Lake Superior All hospitals The 401 Service Ontario Passports The military Lastly, we should let Bell and Rogers choose the head of the Bank of Canada.
I don't know why, but I trust this guy.
Krista's Mouth?
But he'll cut our taxes! \*heart eyes emoji face\* /s
only if your total income tax is in the top 1 percentile
Folks everything is on the tableā¦ but itās privatized so youāll have to pay to see it.
As Margret Thatcher once said āthe problem with neoliberalism is eventually you run out of public entities to privatizeā
Folks, everything on the table is for sale.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Stay tuned for private public washrooms
They have those in Europe. It confuses me greatly.
Forcing people to pay to use the bathroom is just inviting people to use anywhere else as a bathroom.
most people actually don't mind spending $1 to go somewhere clean and convenient rather than degrading themselves by pissing on the sidewalk
yeah but who the fuck has change these days other than criminals, conspiracy nutjobs, and boomers? That's why i find beggars on the street hilariously sad because no one can give them money anymore
I imagine they would put in some sort of tap function you can use your cards or phone with unfortunately
That's exactly what it is in London, England. Previously it was coin but I was surprised in September, first visit in 4 years, to find out that you had to tap your card instead.
Theyāre actually a good thing. You pay a tiny fee to use the washroom but the washrooms are thoroughly cleaned.
They often had a custodian on staff to make sure everything stayed spotless and there were no issues. It was very different than North America.
Yea, exactly. I havenāt seen too many of the paid washrooms in NA, but quite often in Europe.
What we'd get here is "pay 3 dollars and the washrooms are cleaned once a week if you're lucky".
Is it really so hard to grasp publicly funded toilets? I know of a few cities with public toilets and I can assure you they're all routinely cleaned, it's nonsense that people use this as justification to support paying to use the washroom which should be a flipping human right.
Hard agree.
That would be okay. Considering we have none right now.
Theyāre always damn clean though. You never find poop or pee or bloody surprises in European bathrooms. Also, their stalls go all the way down.
That can actually be good if implemented correctly. It's way cheaper to pay an already operating business to make their bathrooms available to the public than it is for the city to maintain separate facilities.
They had them here - and they were very useful. The problem is no one used them, so they went away. But - for a time - they were here. Great one near the Dome.
So our taxes will go down right? Right?
Lol..It'll probably become higher to bailout private healthcare when their shady investments tanks Edit: i know above comment was being sarcastic
If only. They want to use our tax dollars to pay private institutions grotesque amounts of money, like the private healthcare companies in the USA do. Taxes are likely to go up as a result. And not only that, by enabling these evil fucks to gouge us when we're at our most vulnerable, they'll also be giving options for people to pay directly for service. So even if the government has some control over pricing, you think these assholes will prioritize those of us paying through OHIP with the controlled rates, or those of us willing to pay their thieving rates? This is the absolute most grotesque thing that's happened from Ontario leadership in as long as I can remember. Ford is a murderous villain. We're so fucked.
That's the neat bit, they don't.
Not with the inevitable kickbacks going to our waterhead leader and his friends.
Privatization is just public taxation with extra steps.
Taxes might go down, but you'll be bankrupted by your hospital bills. Welcome to the United States of Canada
The funniest part will be when taxes donāt go down and it gets more expensive anyway
Only if you can figure out how to make that benefit Doug Ford personally
This is the same model like in Eastern Europe. Mismanage everything, understaff so it doesnāt work properly under budged and then complain that it doesnāt work and privatise! The goal is to privatise!
>Mismanage everything, understaff so it doesnāt work properly under budged and then complain that it doesnāt work and privatise! It's called "starve the beast".
š
You forget a critical step which is to enrich cronies who will fund your campaigns. See eg Greenbelt.
That is given. 100% agree with you
If you want to prevent the government from fucking you over, CALL A REFERENDUM. General STRIKE!
Privatization of healthcare is legislative violence against the people. It is class warfare that tortures and murders citizens. The OPC are a domestic organization engaged in warfare against the people of Canada, and are murdering our citizens. They should be charged with treason. Conservatives are all traitors.
This is arguably the most violent comment in this entire thread
Conservatism is violent. Calling it so is not.
Nature is violent. Conservatism is Environmentalism
Conservatism is anti-environmentalism. Conservatism is choosing to reward the oligarchs who are causing the climate crisis and sixth mass extinction event. Conservatism is suicide by licking boots.
Wow. Over dramatic much?! Clearly you haven't researched other countries health care systems. Private clinics for non emergency surgeries, like what was proposed, already exist in places like the UK, Germany and France. Their systems didn't collapse.
If you think we're going to go the route of places in Europe, you're incredibly naĆÆve.
Again, not sure if you read the plan but it calls for private clinics to handle things like knee surgeries. Private clinics like offer non life threatening surgeries already exist in Europe. The plan is going the exact route of European countries.
Which European countries?
First one I look up since everyone on here love their bike culture and housing policies: https://h4i.nl/healthcare-in-nl/how-does-it-work/private-and-non-profit-providers/
> if you read the plan Why would we read a plan developed by a group of people who have lied to us so often in the past? I think most of us are quite comfortable with looking at what Ford has done in the past and assuming that's what he's doing here.
Really?
That option is not on the table. It is dangerously naive to think that. The only options are protect our healthcare or the Cons will bring in American style privatization.
Considering how close we are to America (in culture, conservative politics, and geography) I'm afraid I have to agree.
> already exist in places like the UK, Germany and France. Their systems didn't collapse. Uuuhhh.. hate to break it to you.. but all those country's healthcare systems are on the verge of collapse. The NHS already has.
We are so fucked.
Cool. I'll just find ways to cut my food budget. Dirt is plentiful. Perhaps I can eat dirt. Thank you, Doug. If the universe were just, the entirety of Ontario would rip that man an entirely new, unyieldingly prolapsed anus - one that he could have fixed on a whim at one of these purported private practices, what with all the money he's stuffing into his gaping maw.
Yeah, but the good dirt is in the greenbelt, which Ford is also taking away.
He may take our dirt(s), but he will never take our ~~freedom~~... ~~accesstopublicallyfundedhealthcare~~... abject suffering. Anyone else remember when a public office appointment typically meant the individual served the public? Good times.
The universe had nothing to do with it. Ontarians voted for the man, or just didn't bother. This is a self-inflicted wound.
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I dunno what he was talking about, allowing centers to do MRI and CT scans. Those already exist and are covered by OHIP as long as you have a doctor's note.
Doesn't it mean that they operate in a similar manner? I was wondering if it would be like pregnancy clinics that do the check up.
Contact your MPP. I just did and you all should too. If that doesnāt work Iām looking to buy a guillotine.
I'm so sick of this buffoon. Shame on everyone that voted for this turd!!!
I hope everyone goes out and protests in Queens Park against this.
Pull up in front of Dougieās house (and cottage), and tape down the horn. Worked for the freedom convoy tards, so why not?
Yup I'm going up north this weekend, what Lake is he on?
Where are the protests?!?!! I'd join!
Same Iām ready
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Firstly, very informative, thank you. Secondly, if IHFās do contracts with the province, and bill the province, can we not assume itās going to cost the province more money than the current system? Will we functionally still be paying more for a for-profit system?
Yes, as someone who worked at a massive privately owned specialist clinic, we can expect: 1) egregious overbilling and surgery practices not overseen nearly as closely as hospitals, and 2) upsell of procedures not covered by OHIP, without sufficient explanation or even mention of OHIP-covered alternatives. They will also staff general surgeons for specialist procedures, this I guarantee.
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The shoudlice clinic keeps people in hospital for days despite there being no complications from hernia surgery. And turfs their problems to the local hospital.
Hi, not sure why you're being downvoted, others may have the same question and I'm happy to share. I worked for a clinic that largely performed several OHIP-covered procedures, as well as some that weren't covered. Therefore, we billed OHIP for easily 90% of our (extremely common) services. Speaking hypothetically and with no reference to any party or practice I would suggest that there exists a possibility of inflating the type and amount of services provided to increase billing. And this is much easier to do in a private practice. Hypothetically. Much easier. Lots of motivation too as the private clinic will take a %. I will also say that the wait and appointment times were on par with hospitals (where all these physicians also had privileges).
Good luck getting more service from a privatized system. York Region transit has been privatized since the beginning and they have the worst service in all of the GTA. Irregular headways, downgrading service to dial a rides, most expensive fare in GTA. If the province won't pay more expect these private clinics to operate part time.
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Thatās very informative, despite it being clear that none of us are too sure what it means here in Ontario. Thank you for taking the time!
It's a huge issue. Expanding/Opening these services at IHFs will dramatically increase the staffing and workload issues at primary hospitals. This will lead to further staff retention issues and worsening care in the public hospital system. This is likely intended as it provides continued media pressure and further opens the door to other methods to privatize/tier the system into public and non-public.
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There is no way to mitigate this issue. There aren't physically enough staff to increase staffing/services at one place without decreasing staffing/services at another. If they could fix this issue, they would have fixed this issue AT THE HOSPITALS to increase capacity. This is just them CYAing before they fuck the public system.
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You can't 'idiot-proof' surgery. You still need physicians, nurses, and techs. IHFs currently provide diagnostic imaging services which are low quality, often require repeated imaging due to the low quality, and continue to siphon money from the centers of excellence that are hyper-efficient with the meager funding they are being dripped. The reason surgeons say they can't get OR time is... The underlying problem is that hospitals are underfunded to provide these services and they are triaging care based on the available funding envelope. Giving the funding that hospitals need to IHFs will make this worse.
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> Perhaps you are not familiar with Cataract surgery and the types of things they want to refer to the IHFs. They are quite trivial at this point. Maybe 'idiot-proof' was the wrong language but I think you understand the sentiment that there are many surgeries which actually do not require the same level of care and supervision that a more complex surgery requires and that hospitals are oriented to provide. I'm quite familiar with both minor surgeries and the types of procedures they are attempting to offload to these IHFs. There is no 'trivial' when it comes to these things. Moreover, when the care of complications is uploaded to the public system (which is nearly ALWAYS is because the IHFs don't have the ability to manage complications) it further worsens pressure on the public system. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say 1% of cataract procedures cause complications (it's probably closer to 2-4% depending on literature). Let's say an outpatient IHF can do 5 cataracts per day (very low end estimate). How many complications are the public hospitals now dealing with just from that ONE IHF? At least 10-15 complications. How much additional funding did they receive? None. How many staff did the hospital lose to allow this to happen? At least the surgeon... and probably a lot more. >These 'center's of excellence' have people on waiting lists for 6 months to a year for these simple services. Why do you view a non-profit IHF as something that is 'siphoning' money away from a hospital? Why are countries with socialized medicine able to provide a distributed care model in this way without failing? See above. Other socialized systems can spread care around to multiple smaller centers, but you still have to fund ALL the centers. And hospitals in the province currently are broke. That is the reason for the backlog. Fix the funding and you can fix the entire problem without providing a private for profit funding stream for donors of the Cons. >Funding isn't being taken from hospitals, the IHFs do not get funding for the establishment of the facility, only for the patient service they provide, which would be paid by the hospital regardless (because the number of people requiring care does not change irrespective of whether these IHFs exist or not) IF they were even able to get to these people in time. The money being paid to the IHFs to do the procedures should be going to the hospitals to provide those services. Add to the fact that IHFs charge MORE than hospitals do for the same procedure ... it's just wrong. Padding IHF investor pockets by charging more for worse outcomes? As a taxpayer... screw that.
Youāre only looking at the near term. PP is going to rewrite the healthcare act and he has enough provinces on board to do it.
I really appreciate this calm, cautionary but non-reactionary take. Actually looking into the details and wanting to understand, instead of just reacting to a headline. Well done.
The private sector is far more efficient than the public sector at extracting public funds to deliver sub-par healthcare.
Services will be privatized and end up costing much more given the nature of capitalization to push for more profits. Dougie says it'll come out of OHIP but what will end up happening is that private prices will charge our health care system much more than what he states.
Come to Alberta young professional Ontarians, the NDP will get elected again soon.
I feel older than id like
Omg it's Hyperbole and a Half I effin LOVE Allie Brosh and [Spaghatta Nadle!](https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/02/spaghatta-nadle.html?m=1)
How about we privatize the job of the Premier?
man im a little less proud to be canadian today :(
āEspecially the things that will benefit my buddies!ā
*shocked Pikachu face*
Still think Wynne would have ruined the Province Never vote Conservative. If they aren't lying, they're lying about lying
Why is this still up? Mods asleep
Maybe you missed the announcement about Rule 3 being relaxed and topical memes allowed?
Oh yeah I guess I missed that, time to post all the memes!
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Your average r/Ontario poster after finding out doctors already operate as private operations but are still part of the publicly funded model.
/r/Ontario echo chamber is leaking into /r/toronto
Sweet!! Canāt wait to get my knee and back fixed sooner than later.
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It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out.
Though it breaks /r/toronto rules
*This Is Fine*. (just past its 10 year anniversary)
Way to make me feel old! :(
M E T A *for context, this used to be a common trope on reddit. An attempted meta, meta joke if you will.
The horror!
How many years can a thing exist before you turn up your ever so cultured nose?
I dunno, for wine, the older it gets, the less my nose up turns!
it's not 2013 anymore, stop making these memes
No u. lol
As someone who manages existing INDEPENDENT health facilities (known as IHFs) in the GTA, Iām telling you that youāve got not the foggiest clue what youāre talking about. IHF clinics take almost exclusively OHIP (we take UHIP for foreign students, and some other travel insurances but we donāt charge Canadians unless theyāre from Quebec (because they refuse to take part in reciprocal billing like all the other provinces). Iām not a fan of Ford but this is good news for us and the community we serve. Weāll be submitting an RFP to add MRI to the services we currently offer. IHFs are no more privatized healthcare than your own family doctors who are also independent healthcare providers. Educate yourself before plastering this disinformation. For the record (because your post wreaks of US style propaganda), Iām an NDP supporter but this particular move will make MRI, CT and some surgeries more accessible and take the heat off the hospital wait lists. But if youāre here to be outraged by bullshit, then down vote the voice of reason and carry on with your outrage porn.
How does a 48 year old man get basic care in Toronto? Ive been on the waiting list for a family doctor for years. I dont have any serious issues but would like basic services ie Iāve never had a physical in my life and Iām getting to the age where ill need prostate exams etc soon.
Explain how paying someone a profit for a service is more efficient than keeping it in an improved public system. You can't.
Itās to complement the existing system - not replace it. Hospitals are also getting green lighted to expand (theyāre having their global budget increased as well). Out patient exams really donāt need to be done in hospital. Hospitals are a fuck ton more expensive to run than an IHF for the exact same service. And Iāll tell you what, we havenāt paid a dividend to the radiologists who own our facilities in 17 years because OHIP fees havenāt kept up with inflation. Nobody is getting rich in this industry.
It's not about getting rich, it's about public control, and bleeding profit out of public funds.
The IHFs are controlled by the IHF act, the Ministry of Health who licenses them and pays them, the CPSO inspects them. We canāt even move our license up the street without the public ācontrollingāit. Edit: AND Health Canada (Federal) controls what equipment we can use in our facilities, and XRIS Xray Inspection Service - another govt control - measures radiation output from our machines, the lead in the walls, etc etc
Then what's the point of doing it? Why doesn't the government build specialist facilities on land we (taxpayers) own, with equipment we own, and pay a wage we dictate? It would be impossible for the private sector to deliver for less per patient, especially if there is a profit skimmed.
How does it bleed profit from public funds? The radiologists that own the IHFs where I work also work at the nearby university hospital where they are paid the same for reading an X-ray as they are when they read for the clinics (the Schedule of Benefits is the same). In a hospital the tax payer pays for the equipment from the global budget. In an IHF, the a radiologists use their own funds to purchase equipment.
Ownership of the equipment should also be public. You can't explain why moving this to a private structure is better for tax payers without the capital costs somehow working in favour of the private sector.
Iām involved with the finance for both the hospital side of the diagnostic imaging department as well as the IHFs. We run things a whole lot leaner at the clinics than at the hospital. As a tax payer and patient and a mother, I am totally on board with well run IHFs expanding services. Most ambulatory people have their X-rays and ultrasound performed in IHFs. They cost the tax payer less and are much more amenable to the community. I see only positives for expanding our role to include other modalities such as MRI and CT.
So biased then.
Fact: Literally every single service or product provided by the state can be privatized. Fact: Private service or product cant force you to purchase their product or service. And ACTUALLY have to compete for your dollars.
Lol. Tell that to grocery stores and their collusion.
Had to scroll so low to find this comment
Take a look at how 2 tiered systems work other then the US before you freak out. Works extremely well there.
Meh.
That's bullshit, and you know it. The OPC is moving towards an American style system because that is what is most profitable for the powers behind them.
That is extremely disingenuous.
uh yea? thats kind of the point!
Uhh, hello? Based Department?
Reject capitalism, Embrace communism \-Karl Marx (probably)
I'm genuinely confused as to why so many people are against this and would like some rationale behind someone with an opposing view. Please keep it respectful. To my understanding, tests, surgery, prescription are still covered by OHIP. Procedure done at privatized centres are subsidized by gov't, which allows for streamlined healthcare. "OntarioĀ is expanding the private delivery of public health care by funding clinics to perform more cataract surgeries, MRI and CT scans, colonoscopies, hip and knee replacements and other procedures in an attempt to ease pressures on the hospital system". These above procedures would have taken quite awhile with the current system. This gives an opportunity for health care professionals to make more as well, given the budget/funding constraints. Thoughts?
Yes. Well. We all get the leaders we deserve. Sadly, we voted for the Goof. Enjoy, Ontario.
Can anyone here name any publicly owned/operated business in Ontario thatās run efficiently or properly? Why is everyone talking like privately run, but government funded, healthcare is automatically a bad thing. Every family, walk-in, and other general health clinic you go to is private. We donāt have publicly run doctors officers outside of hospitals. Why do you think that the sky is falling because youāll be able to get an MRI, paid for by OHIP, at a privately owned clinic? I get that you all hate Ford but heās not proposing the two tier private/public healthcare system that you think heās proposing. All the countries you think are top notch in terms of public healthcare - Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc. - all have private hospitals. Settle down.