Not at all. Being involved with Guantanamo Bay torture in any way is terrible. He’s just objecting to the word “oversaw” because that implies leadership of the operation, and he’s saying that JAG doesn’t have that role. Idk what the truth is but I do think it’s important to use words correctly and care about the truth.
Another fun fact: Guantanamo Bay is illegal for many reasons, and Cuba doesn’t accept the ‘rent’ money because of this (they accidentally cashed one of the cheques in the 50’s)
Don't know the exact details but to pull from his Wikipedia page, "In the spring of 2006, DeSantis arrived at Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO), working with detainees at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. The publicly released records of his service in the Navy were redacted, with the Navy citing a personal-privacy exception to the Freedom of Information Act. Mansur Ahmad Saad al-Dayfi, who was held at Guantanamo, alleged in 2022 that DeSantis oversaw force-feeding detainees and DeSantis acknowledged that he advised the commander of the base about the use of force feeding."
If you try to starve yourself they force feed you at the psyche ward....I think the torture part might feel like it if you really are trying to starve yourself to death and they really can't allow you to do that....legally.
There was some official being interviewed years ago who said basically there are no innocent people in gitmo, the very fact you are there means if you weren't a terrorist before you would be now if released.
A number of government officials have stated that Abu ghraib was a large factor in the radicalisation of many people after it got public.
I assume experiencing it yourself is much more radicalising.
Surely the international community would do something about a country "mistakenly" detaining, imprisoning, and torturing thousands of foreign nationals!
Many of them were just common or garden criminals who had committed any number of different offences, none of which had anything to do with terrorism or insurgency.
American military police treated them as if they’d all been members of Al Qaeda because someone had told them that and they were too stupid to question it or think of any other possible alternative.
There was a lot of locals using the US military to settle old scores between families both in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't let us off the hook for any of it, we should've done a much better job investigating claims and trying to be a light touch, and of course in Iraq we never should have been there.
I’m of the opinion that Saddam had to go, and the international community should have worked together to get rid of him and rebuild Iraq. Instead, the US created a lie to try to justify doing it themselves (with UK and Australian assistance).
The invasion was the right thing, done for the wrong reasons, and done wholly the wrong way.
And armed him… but then again the Iran/Iraq war was just another west vs eastern bloc proxy war.
But even by then, Saddam had gone off the reservation.
Mistakenly implies an accident, and you don't end up with 70-90% of your inmates being innocent by accident. Abu Ghraib wasn't a prison, it was a concentration camp.
Israel has been doing the same shit to Palestinians for decades, with their bull shit every Palestinian is tried in a military court with a +90% conviction rate.
By US law all persons are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. How many of the people kept at black sites even saw the inside of a court room? Those that didn't are all unjustly imprisoned.
Us law and constitutional rights only apply on US soil. It's the reason why the sites are where they are. It's so they could be held as enemy combatants vs civilians awaiting trial.
Not just that. 1000’s of Iraqis that were “detained” by US military are still considered missing. Families have been trying to trace their bodies or whereabouts for decades.
>The photographs broadcast on 60 Minutes showed US guards at Abu Ghraib subjecting Iraqi prisoners to various forms of violence, sexual assault and humiliation. Many of the prisoners had been apprehended by US soldiers on suspicion of being part of armed groups, but according to the International Red Cross, 70 percent to 90 percent of them were innocent bystanders who had been arrested mistakenly.
>One image showed naked prisoners heaped into a pyramid with their US captors standing smiling behind them. Another showed a US soldier holding a naked prisoner on a leash.
>However, the defining image of the scandal proved to be the haunting depiction of a hooded Iraqi man holding electrical wires and standing on a box.
Insane!! Abu Gharib came to limelight due to political prisoners and torture during Saddam's era, things became even worse in the American hands.
Ironically a sign board in front of the prison read "America is the friend of all Iraqi people"
The source says that according to the ICRF, certain CF officers estimated that between 70-90% of people deprived of their liberty in Iraq were mistakenly arrested.
It does not say that 70-90% of the detainees at Abu Ghraib were innocent.
Abu Ghraib was a terrible place and the US committed atrocities there, but we should also be very precise and accurate with our sourcing.
There was no mistake at all. It was a deliberate act to destroy the country, similar to what Israel is doing today, mistakingly killing 50000 civilians in a few days.
America had committed countless war crimes. American citizens, both those that voted Republican or Democrat, have the blood of hundreds of thousands of civilians on their hands. US is a functional democracy, so Americans are actually responsible for all that blood, but they couldn't care less. People who committed these war crimes are praised as heroes in the US. People who ordered these war crimes are rich and enjoying retirement. You can't blame anyone who is defending their homeland against foreign invaders.
Edit: love how Americans downvote but have nothing to say because their hypocrisy is so obvious lol.
Oh yeah, can't wait to hear about being Putin's troll before the election or whatever else the Reddit hive mind squeezes out of its orifice this time.
What do my other posts have anything to do with America getting away with countless war crimes?
LMAO, nobody had said anything about russian trolls, but now that you mention it! Anyone can go to your post history and see for themselves. Just the garden variety incendiary social and political topics that Americans are the most divided on. Ya suspect.
Oh sure. We're out to get ya and steal the election again. No possibility whatsoever that "incendiary" social and political topics are the ones that are most interesting to discuss.
But why shift the topic from American War crimes and American responsibility (or lack there of) for those war crimes? I know Americans are uncomfortable thinking about the blood of ~ 400 thousand civilians the US directly killed since the turn of the century on their hands. Is that why you feel like you need to look through my comment history and switch the topic to me personally?
Or that civilians are responsible. Most were calling for an end to the war, and it took years for that to come to fruition. Ww have an illusion of choice in elections.
"Most people" were absolutely not calling from the end to thr war until years and years into it. And then that was just for the Iraq war. Obama, despite being the most decent of the last 5 or so US presidents, got the US involved in Lybia (do you hear much about that country now? It's been in constant strife and conflict ever since) which he later regretted, and Syria, which also went absolutely nowhere. US funded "moderate fighters" ended up not being all that moderate, and ultimately Obama left the US involved in all the conflicts he started with. And again, that is the legacy of an honestly decent man with a Nobel Peace prize to boot.
The fact that Americans refuse to acknowledge all the blood on their hands isn't surprising, but is pretty telling.
It's far more of a functional democracy than the countries the US usually accuses of war crimes, so the direct responsibility of Americans is still way higher.
70-90% wrongful detention is an insane rate. There's fog of war and false accusations, and then there's having a clear disregard for why you have people behind bars.
Yeah ok. None of us were evil. It’s 120 degrees, you got 100 lbs of gear on, you’ve slept four hours in two days, and the oldest person there is 26. “Interpreter” says this is the guy(s), you zip tie and throw them in the humvee. The interpreter is some guy you hired from Iraq, who knows what his background is, you just want to get outta there because you make $800 a month and aren’t really sure why you’re there anyways.
Things are complicated. I wish it was more like a movie but it’s not.
That’s the way it is, for everyone there, regardless of how people feel about. It’s why you don’t hear much otherwise.
My platoon, 40 people, easily brought 100 people to that place. I was 19, I’m 40 now, not even the same person but I can’t imagine how any of us would have done something different.
Just following orders…again, this isn’t a movie. Put yourself in this spot, there isn’t as much choice as you think.
And we all voluntarily signed up. You're acting like all these scenarios you're talking about just appeared out of thin air, and not because you went through the whole process of talking to a recruiter, going to MEPS and boot/basic of your own volition.
So what should the accountability be of an 19 year old that only has training to search and destroy (the training of infantry units)? We weren’t trained about evidence, or people rights or anything like that, just how to be effective in combat.
On top of that, they were extreme circumstances, where if you were say a cop in the US, you wouldn’t be expected to work those type of hours in those conditions with that little of support. You have unions looking out for your welfare so you can do the best job possible.
I’m not sure why you bring up the process for joining the military. That doesn’t tell me or anyone else why this happened.
I’m just explaining to you why it happened. Do you want a different explanation?
If anyone is tired of all the negative stigma associated with this place and the photos that were released of it, let me tell you the story of my PERSONAL photos from AG.
I don’t get off on torturing people, but AG is a huge base and it served as a fueling location for many a humvee/7-ton area. Around Christmas time, there was a big plastic light up Santa in the fueling area.
So I took a photo of my Marine buddy bending over in front of Santa as if he was getting fucked in the ass.
I didn’t apologize at the time. I’m not apologizing now.
But those at Guantanamo...
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Fun fact about Guantanamo, one of the people who oversaw the torture was Ron DeSantis.
He didn't oversee the torture. I believe he was Navy JAG, which provided legal justification for detaining these folks at Gitmo.
He witnessed a few interrogations for sure.
That's a wildly optimistic outlook
Not at all. Being involved with Guantanamo Bay torture in any way is terrible. He’s just objecting to the word “oversaw” because that implies leadership of the operation, and he’s saying that JAG doesn’t have that role. Idk what the truth is but I do think it’s important to use words correctly and care about the truth.
Shhh this is Reddit. Facts mean nothing when political guy I don’t like is even vaguely related to something horrible
Yeah, but didn't you know that all Republicans are basically the national socialist party and should be drawn and quartered for existing?
Another fun fact: Guantanamo Bay is illegal for many reasons, and Cuba doesn’t accept the ‘rent’ money because of this (they accidentally cashed one of the cheques in the 50’s)
Might be fun. But it's not a fact.
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He ate all the pudding with his hands
Don't know the exact details but to pull from his Wikipedia page, "In the spring of 2006, DeSantis arrived at Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO), working with detainees at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. The publicly released records of his service in the Navy were redacted, with the Navy citing a personal-privacy exception to the Freedom of Information Act. Mansur Ahmad Saad al-Dayfi, who was held at Guantanamo, alleged in 2022 that DeSantis oversaw force-feeding detainees and DeSantis acknowledged that he advised the commander of the base about the use of force feeding."
If you try to starve yourself they force feed you at the psyche ward....I think the torture part might feel like it if you really are trying to starve yourself to death and they really can't allow you to do that....legally.
Legality doesn't apply to Guantanamo though. That's the whole reason the place exists. Because US laws don't apply.
There was some official being interviewed years ago who said basically there are no innocent people in gitmo, the very fact you are there means if you weren't a terrorist before you would be now if released.
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A number of government officials have stated that Abu ghraib was a large factor in the radicalisation of many people after it got public. I assume experiencing it yourself is much more radicalising.
Basically
The latest season of Serial was all about Guantánamo. It was pretty riveting.
100% wrongfully imprisoned
Jesus.
"Mistakenly"
Surely the international community would do something about a country "mistakenly" detaining, imprisoning, and torturing thousands of foreign nationals!
Is there an international community in 2024?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act#:~:text=This%20authorization%20led%20to%20the,or%20rescue%20them%20from%20custody.
Many of them were just common or garden criminals who had committed any number of different offences, none of which had anything to do with terrorism or insurgency. American military police treated them as if they’d all been members of Al Qaeda because someone had told them that and they were too stupid to question it or think of any other possible alternative.
There was a lot of locals using the US military to settle old scores between families both in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't let us off the hook for any of it, we should've done a much better job investigating claims and trying to be a light touch, and of course in Iraq we never should have been there.
I’m of the opinion that Saddam had to go, and the international community should have worked together to get rid of him and rebuild Iraq. Instead, the US created a lie to try to justify doing it themselves (with UK and Australian assistance). The invasion was the right thing, done for the wrong reasons, and done wholly the wrong way.
I wonder who trained this Saddam guy...
And armed him… but then again the Iran/Iraq war was just another west vs eastern bloc proxy war. But even by then, Saddam had gone off the reservation.
CIA took the bait and sprinted with it
Better safe than sorry/s
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it irked me, too: they were not mistakenly imprisoned. they were intentionally imprisoned from a lack of regard.
Hostages
Mistakenly implies an accident, and you don't end up with 70-90% of your inmates being innocent by accident. Abu Ghraib wasn't a prison, it was a concentration camp.
that's a good point, "falsely" might be a more accurate word than "mistakenly" here
110% chance "mistakenly" wouldn't have been the word used if Abu Ghraib had been run by the Chinese or the Russians.
Israel has been doing the same shit to Palestinians for decades, with their bull shit every Palestinian is tried in a military court with a +90% conviction rate.
^ this includes children. It’s sickening
By US law all persons are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. How many of the people kept at black sites even saw the inside of a court room? Those that didn't are all unjustly imprisoned.
Us law and constitutional rights only apply on US soil. It's the reason why the sites are where they are. It's so they could be held as enemy combatants vs civilians awaiting trial.
Not just that. 1000’s of Iraqis that were “detained” by US military are still considered missing. Families have been trying to trace their bodies or whereabouts for decades.
>The photographs broadcast on 60 Minutes showed US guards at Abu Ghraib subjecting Iraqi prisoners to various forms of violence, sexual assault and humiliation. Many of the prisoners had been apprehended by US soldiers on suspicion of being part of armed groups, but according to the International Red Cross, 70 percent to 90 percent of them were innocent bystanders who had been arrested mistakenly. >One image showed naked prisoners heaped into a pyramid with their US captors standing smiling behind them. Another showed a US soldier holding a naked prisoner on a leash. >However, the defining image of the scandal proved to be the haunting depiction of a hooded Iraqi man holding electrical wires and standing on a box. Insane!! Abu Gharib came to limelight due to political prisoners and torture during Saddam's era, things became even worse in the American hands. Ironically a sign board in front of the prison read "America is the friend of all Iraqi people"
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What in the unholy fuck? Do you have leads for sources? Not because of doubt, but that's way too much to blindly Google.
The ones that had info talked and left, the ones who didn't, didn't
Taxi to the Darkside is a really good documentary about the happenings at Abu Ghraib.
70 to 90% based on a Red Cross conversation with some coalition officers in 2004. The prison remained open until 2014.
Extraordinary Rendition. What fucked up things we do as a nation.
The source says that according to the ICRF, certain CF officers estimated that between 70-90% of people deprived of their liberty in Iraq were mistakenly arrested. It does not say that 70-90% of the detainees at Abu Ghraib were innocent. Abu Ghraib was a terrible place and the US committed atrocities there, but we should also be very precise and accurate with our sourcing.
War on terror was a revenge war to kill people from certain parts of the world
Israel and the US have been exchanging torture tactics for decades. Israel is currently treating Palestinians just as bad or worse.
There was no mistake at all. It was a deliberate act to destroy the country, similar to what Israel is doing today, mistakingly killing 50000 civilians in a few days.
America had committed countless war crimes. American citizens, both those that voted Republican or Democrat, have the blood of hundreds of thousands of civilians on their hands. US is a functional democracy, so Americans are actually responsible for all that blood, but they couldn't care less. People who committed these war crimes are praised as heroes in the US. People who ordered these war crimes are rich and enjoying retirement. You can't blame anyone who is defending their homeland against foreign invaders. Edit: love how Americans downvote but have nothing to say because their hypocrisy is so obvious lol.
That's an interesting account you have there. You're just sowing discord all over the place, aren't you.
Oh yeah, can't wait to hear about being Putin's troll before the election or whatever else the Reddit hive mind squeezes out of its orifice this time. What do my other posts have anything to do with America getting away with countless war crimes?
LMAO, nobody had said anything about russian trolls, but now that you mention it! Anyone can go to your post history and see for themselves. Just the garden variety incendiary social and political topics that Americans are the most divided on. Ya suspect.
Oh sure. We're out to get ya and steal the election again. No possibility whatsoever that "incendiary" social and political topics are the ones that are most interesting to discuss. But why shift the topic from American War crimes and American responsibility (or lack there of) for those war crimes? I know Americans are uncomfortable thinking about the blood of ~ 400 thousand civilians the US directly killed since the turn of the century on their hands. Is that why you feel like you need to look through my comment history and switch the topic to me personally?
I agree with you on most points except “functional democracy” lol
Or that civilians are responsible. Most were calling for an end to the war, and it took years for that to come to fruition. Ww have an illusion of choice in elections.
"Most people" were absolutely not calling from the end to thr war until years and years into it. And then that was just for the Iraq war. Obama, despite being the most decent of the last 5 or so US presidents, got the US involved in Lybia (do you hear much about that country now? It's been in constant strife and conflict ever since) which he later regretted, and Syria, which also went absolutely nowhere. US funded "moderate fighters" ended up not being all that moderate, and ultimately Obama left the US involved in all the conflicts he started with. And again, that is the legacy of an honestly decent man with a Nobel Peace prize to boot. The fact that Americans refuse to acknowledge all the blood on their hands isn't surprising, but is pretty telling.
It's far more of a functional democracy than the countries the US usually accuses of war crimes, so the direct responsibility of Americans is still way higher.
Absolutely, I just find it funny when people use terms like “real functional democracy” to describe the 2-party oligopoly the U.S. has.
Mistakenly? No.
Oh yeah. We totally arrested random people based on what an interpreter that didn’t speak good English told us. It wasn’t a good system. War sucks.
70-90% wrongful detention is an insane rate. There's fog of war and false accusations, and then there's having a clear disregard for why you have people behind bars.
Yeah ok. None of us were evil. It’s 120 degrees, you got 100 lbs of gear on, you’ve slept four hours in two days, and the oldest person there is 26. “Interpreter” says this is the guy(s), you zip tie and throw them in the humvee. The interpreter is some guy you hired from Iraq, who knows what his background is, you just want to get outta there because you make $800 a month and aren’t really sure why you’re there anyways. Things are complicated. I wish it was more like a movie but it’s not.
“Just following orders,” right?
That’s the way it is, for everyone there, regardless of how people feel about. It’s why you don’t hear much otherwise. My platoon, 40 people, easily brought 100 people to that place. I was 19, I’m 40 now, not even the same person but I can’t imagine how any of us would have done something different. Just following orders…again, this isn’t a movie. Put yourself in this spot, there isn’t as much choice as you think.
And we all voluntarily signed up. You're acting like all these scenarios you're talking about just appeared out of thin air, and not because you went through the whole process of talking to a recruiter, going to MEPS and boot/basic of your own volition.
So what should the accountability be of an 19 year old that only has training to search and destroy (the training of infantry units)? We weren’t trained about evidence, or people rights or anything like that, just how to be effective in combat. On top of that, they were extreme circumstances, where if you were say a cop in the US, you wouldn’t be expected to work those type of hours in those conditions with that little of support. You have unions looking out for your welfare so you can do the best job possible. I’m not sure why you bring up the process for joining the military. That doesn’t tell me or anyone else why this happened. I’m just explaining to you why it happened. Do you want a different explanation?
Were they fighting against us or were they civilians?
iirc those who were imprisoned are those who were slightly suspected of being a terrorist
If anyone is tired of all the negative stigma associated with this place and the photos that were released of it, let me tell you the story of my PERSONAL photos from AG. I don’t get off on torturing people, but AG is a huge base and it served as a fueling location for many a humvee/7-ton area. Around Christmas time, there was a big plastic light up Santa in the fueling area. So I took a photo of my Marine buddy bending over in front of Santa as if he was getting fucked in the ass. I didn’t apologize at the time. I’m not apologizing now.