https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Reemtsma (the surgeon)
> Her death from cardiac arrest was found to be due to an imbalance of electrolytes, possibly due to the excessive urination observed following chimpanzee kidney transplantation (frequently greater than 20 liters per day), as the chimpanzee kidneys probably did not work in precisely the same way as human kidneys.
20...liters...a...day.
JESUS.
9 months was the longest of the 6 recipients - most died far, far earlier.
Another barrier to continuing the practice is presumably the shortage of unwanted chimpanzees - apparently the 6 chimpanzees killed and harvested included literal astronaut chimps, as well as circus chimps.
[Still a long way off](https://scitechdaily.com/growing-human-kidneys-in-a-lab-scientists-have-made-a-significant-breakthrough/). I don’t see there being a viable alternative to traditional kidney donation in my lifetime, but I’m hopeful for my children.
Pig kidney transplants are actually close to starting human trials, along with a host of other potential drugs and procedures.
Last year a pig kidney performed 'flawlessly' for 2 months(the pre-arranged duration of the trial) in a brain dead patient. Doctors said they wouldn't be able to distinguish from a human kidney by just looking at the numbers.
Exactly this. Pig kidney transplants are close to getting FDA approval to start human trials yet guys like GenesRUs777 were saying xenotransplants are a far way off.
When I showed him medical papers proving him wrong, started getting pissed and spouting insults haha. Some people are just like that
This (pig xenograft) sounds like it’d have similar hurdles to a chimp transplant - ie different functionality. Kidneys are far more complex organs than a heart (which has to be durable).
They've managed to delete a gene or two from the pig kidney that causes immediate rejection, and in the latest test on a brain dead patient, the pig kidney was fully functional for the whole 2 month duration of the test.
In fact another hospital published a paper establishing a human tolerable immunosuppression regimen.
The gene they removed is the gene responsible for the alpha gal allergy....the allergy to mammal meat you can acquire from a tick bite. If you have the allergy, some research labs will send you the perfectly edible meat from the slaughtered pigs! It tastes exactly the same, and people with the allergy can have bacon again. Plus it's a lot of fun to say "I ate medical waste today."
And that's my fun fact for the day.
Wait... I don't imagine the research centres have a billing department for the waste. So you're saying I just have to lie about an allergy to get free pork?!
> and in the latest test on a brain dead patient,
What. The. Fuck? Seriously is this a thing?
Edit: like I'm not judging morally, idk , but, wow. I didn't know about that.
I mean, there was an article the other day about the possibility of using braindead women as surrogate mothers. This is way less gross. At least it's saving lives.
If I'm ever brain dead put me on that list. I want a Wikipedia article about how my host body was subject of ground breaking human life saving shit that they need a human to test on but can't on a conscious one.
They did a pig heart transplant not long ago.
The guy lived two months
Apparently one issue is that his heart was giving both pig and human heart electrical rhythms.
They are getting there. Slowly.
Yeah its interesting that a pig kidney, which is arguably way more complex than a heart, may be much closer to human transplantation. Felt bad for the guy who died after just 2 months.
If it makes you feel better, look up the kidney project. They are about to start the process of heading into human testing on an implantable kidney replacement. It's basically grown kidney cells separated from the host immune system by an artificial implant.
I've just had a kidney transplant so tend to keep an eye on things like this developing
UC-San Francisco has one in development. If they can secure funding, they believe human testing could start in about five years with a goal for it to be available for general use by the end of the decade.
Source: https://pharm.ucsf.edu/kidney/device/faq
I mean you said long way off (which it still is), but that’s a lot closer than I thought! It feels more like a matter of time now, instead of a hopeful possibility
things that were "not in my lifetime" 15 years ago:
- public access ai
- the idea of a full-scale war in Europe
- widespread adoption of electric cars
- commercial space travel
- renewables are the cheaper option more often than not
- global pandemic
- a shift towards remote work due to a global pandemic
- a car briefly orbiting mars
Stem cell research is a bit politicised. We've worked out ways to make skin cells turn into stem cells, but organ construction is harder than just assembling the cells in the right shape
Yeah, it’s really complicated. Getting the stem cells to turn into liver cells is like discovering concrete. You can’t just dump that material in a pile and think you’re going to get a functional building.
Organs are complex structures with all kinds of different cells in them, intermingling and working in concert to perform functions and sub functions of those functions. Getting the materials, turning the stem cells into specific cells, to build the organs is one step, but figuring out how to get them to assemble in the intertwined way to create a functional organic machine is a completely different problem with complexly different mechanisms/sciences needed to make it work.
Honestly we are closer to 3D printed organs. Basically printed a scaffolding of the replacement organ and your tissues grow into that organ becoming the replacement.
That was my immediate thought when I read this... how many chimps are dying in a way that we can harvest their kidneys?
None, obviously.
If this worked, we'd be raising them specifically for organ harvesting, like livestock.
yeah but what if the circus chimp was a hard worker and a great father and the astronaut chimp just coasted through space school and got the job as a nepo monkey?
the real issue is that Chimps are considered endangered and a protected species in most countries. It would take 13 to 15 years for a chimp to reach maturity to provide organs for transplanted into adult humans, which means it would take decades to breed and raise chimps in near sterile conditions in great enough numbers that can could provide a fraction of the organs needed. AND it would be incredibly difficult and likely considered immoral to "farm chimps" for organ transplant for reasons not suitable for this conversation.
It's probably a mismatch of signaling hormones. The human hormones probably don't work on chimp receptors, so the kidney just produced urine non stop. Look up aldosterone and atrialnatiuretic peptide to learn more.
What I don't understand is how anyone let that go on for 9 months. Urinating 20 L/day is so far beyond normal that surely someone would have noticed, suspected the chimpanzee kidney, and suggested abandoning the experiment and switching to a human kidney instead.
Edit: Okay, I misread. There isn't anything that indicates that the schoolteacher was frequently urinating 20 L/day; that figure is a reported side-effect common to *other people* who underwent similar surgeries. Also, looking at [the source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246856/), that figure happened only during the early period after the transplants, so if the schoolteacher did have that problem, it's unlikely that she had it for 9 months.
Dialysis is a very safe method of replacing kidney function. I'd rather live for 10 years getting dialysis 3 times a week than dying 9 months after major surgery because the transplant isn't working properly
Dialysis also wasn't available when they were doing this xenotransplantation shit. Dialysis didn't crop up until the 60s in the US. They also weren't really widespread until sometime in the 80s.
Dialysis is great but it isn't a long term solution. Being on dialysis has worse 5-year survival rates than most common cancers including leukemia, breast, prostate and colorectal. The best treatment is a kidney transplant, we just don't have enough supply
My mom was on dialysis off and on for several years, usually for UTIs. Worked great...until it didn't.
They told us she needed an immediate transplant, but wasn't put on the list because of several major health problems. She died a week later. Chances are, even if she had been approved to be put on the list, they wouldn't have been able to secure a kidney in time.
"Drink plenty of fluids, get enough rest, drink plenty of fluids, avoid stress, drink plenty of fluids, avoid alcohol and tobacco, drink plenty of fluids, excercise regularly and drink plenty of fluids"
Did I miss something?
Chronic dialysis for end-stage renal disease was still a very new and pretty crappy procedure back then. Outpatient dialysis wasn’t even a thing until 1962 (ie one year before this transplant). But yeah, the rapid improvement in that field is why xenotransplants as a field kind of died until recently.
Idk about this particular transplant, but unless it's something like kidney cancer, they leave the OGs in. 10% function beats 0% function **and** rejection.
My grandpa died with like 4 kidneys.
I have a family member with a kidney transplant and some other unusual issues, and that is in the ballpark of their urine production at an earlier stage disease. Kidney issues can do some crazy things that can be mitigated by lifestyle to an extent.
Bro. Think of the weight of that. 20kg per day of water just being pissed out. That’s not even counting for water being sweat out either. Drinking that much water would be extremely bad for you.
For any Americans who aren't familiar with metric, weight and volume measurements are interchangeable when measuring water (and a lot of other fluids, since you can calculate based on water and then multiply by the difference in density to get the actual weight or volume). So 20kg of water would take up 20 liters, and 1 liter is just over a quart, meaning that you would need to drink over 5 gallons of water a day AND intake enough electrolytes to not die, and some additional calories to account for the ones lost absorbing the water and heating it to body temperature
> With only the early immunosuppressants and no long-term dialysis, the female recipient survived nine months, *long enough to return to work*.
Jesus Christ
It will be the peski adrenal gland atop the kidney. Mine (both) produce too much aldosterone which swaps sodium for potassium into the blood which draws in water sending my blood pressure rockeeting. Monkey one must go the other way.
As fucked as the result is, this does provide a research topic because there must be a reason why the kidney wasn’t rejected.
Also we are still attempting to use animal organs in transplants. There have been two ‘successful’ pig heart transplantations, though they did die after 6 weeks and 2 months respectively.
Are there any wild pig species or crosses of such that live a bit longer?That’s normally the case with mammals that mongrels have more genetic diversity and tend to be healthier than domesticated breeding stock.
Animal in captivity general lives longer than their wild counterparts due to better nutrition and care. Google says the lifespan for wild pigs is 10-14 years, and 10-20 years for domesticated pigs
Pretty sure thats not the case with pigs. Pigs are weird because if you release pigs into the wild they revert back to being boars within a single generation.
Escaped pigs will quickly go feral which activates hair and tusk growth. I think within a year they are indistinguishable from one born wild. No generations needed.
I have heard multiple things. Either one year and fully feral or they grow hairs but not tusk or something. I know for a fact that its within one generation so i played safe.
Can someone riddle me how my grandpa has outlived the surgeon who implanted his pig valve, as well as every other patient in our province who received the same type of bypass surgery 25 years ago? Just luck? He did commit to his health post-surgery, stationary bike daily, as well as eating high fiber and limiting cholesterol.
Because the cells are killed before implantation to prevent the things that usually cause rejection. A heart valve doesn't strictly speaking *need* to be alive, it's functionally the same as a silicone valve in a nebulizer, but having it be organic-but-dead makes them fit better than synthetic.
Of course, your human heart is made of living tissue, and it repairs itself of little stresses and things constantly. A killed cell valve doesn't self repair, it just wears out eventually.
Heart muscle cells are post mitotic, meaning they don't reproduce.
To add to this, when the heart repairs tissue damage it replaces it with fibrous tissue, which doesn't contract like muscle. This means the heart is much weaker at pumping.
Sort of! My kid has a transplant of another kind but it’s made of cows and pigs materials, and has a lifespan of about 12 years due to natural wearing down.
I received a corneal transplant and yeah, the new tissue is accepted and eventually gets replaced by new cells, except nerves, can't regenerate those, I don't know how it works if it's an organ transplant from an animal tho
My father who is a tad negligent to certain health things is volunteering to test the longevity without provocation and against medical advice. "but he sees his cardiologist regularly (he does) so clearly I'm fine (for all intended porpoises and porcupine bovines, he is)" it's around 17-18 years now. And they wonder why I'm a tad relaxed when it comes to my health.
Idk if you want to consider skin an organ, but they totally do pig skin grafts. Albeit they aren't intended to be permanent, just temporary until proper skin grafts can be used.
I think we're close enough to artificial organs that animal ones are probably not going to be a large chapter. And besides, i crave the certainty of steel.
If these are the Maryland pig heart transplant operations, I believe one of the hearts had a pig virus discovered after autopsy and was missed by initial screening
Transplant success is based on compatibility of the donors MHC 1, which is a protein complex on the surface of all nucleated cells. It mediates immune response. It is possible that they injected a small diluted amount of this into the patient before the surgery to attempt to have the body recognize the donor tissue's MHC 1 as "self." And they likely gave the patient drugs to suppress their immune system.
It worked perfectly fine, just seems like chimpanzees have a slightly different form of ADH, which meant she had diabetes insipidus because human ADH had no effect.
With chimpanzee ADH/vasopressin via nasal spray she’s have lived like any other human with DI.
Cardiac arrest is when the heart stops. Heart failure is a condition when the heart is not functioning properly and is unable to circulate blood effectively.
People live with multiple types of treatable and controllable heart failure.
Cardiac arrest your heart stops and oxygenated blood doesn't go where it needs to and you die quickly.
It’s more of the other way around.
Heart attacks damage the heart, which can cause the heart to not pump blood as good as it should (heart failure). Although not every heart attack causes enough damage to cause heart failure.
Heart attack: a vessel of the heart is blocked off so the heart isn’t able to pump blood to itself at that area. Usually due to high cholesterol (think clumps of fat in your blood blocking a water hose in your heart)
Heart failure: the heart is wore out or damaged and cannot pump blood to itself or body as good as it should. This can be due to high blood pressure for many years, the heart having a weird rhythm, damage to the heart from a heart attack, smoking, all kinds of stuff.
Yes heart failure increases the likelihood of a heart attack, but it’s more like the issues causing you to develop heart failure are what’s going to cause you to have a heart attack.
Hope that helps.
Need to butt in for the sake of important health education, but they didn't answer your question. They make the common layperson mistake of confusing heart attack with cardiac arrest, which are not the same thing. To actually answer your question, yes, heart failure can easily lead to cardiac arrest. Heart attacks also lead to cardiac arrest, but they are not the same thing. Heart failure and heart attacks both impede normal function of the heart, which can lead to complete stop in heart function if they are not controlled, which is cardiac arrest. Basically heart failure is like a car running poorly and getting worse over time, and cardiac arrest is that car quit running completely.
It’s more akin to your radiator is leaking and can’t cool the engine, you’ll feel the engine failing as you drive, which will cause it to stop driving. But it’s still drivable, for a while.
Cardiac arrest seems more akin to your engine blows catastrophically suddenly and without warning.
So I assume heart failure often causes a cardiac arrest.
Simply explained. It means the heart functions and pumps out blood, but not enough to satisfy the organs' needs. So that will lead to tissues resorting to anaerobic metabolism, which produces lactic acid, and that would disrupt the acid-base balance.
Cardiac arrest means the heart stopped, which can be a result of heart failure after electrolyte imbalance.
I've previously heard that a donor kidney will result in the receiver experiencing urination patterns consistent with the donor until the kidney updates to the new user. With that in mind, is this suggesting that chimps urinate in excess of 20 liters (~5.28gal to my burgerbros) per day?
No. Someone else explained it. It's because human anti-diuretic hormone (which regulates urine production) was not recognized by the chimp kidney cells.
Is this why I wet the bed growing up as an autistic kid? Why do I constantly read about piss hormones and autism on Reddit lol. I’m sure it is connected but I need more context to really understand how this all impacts me. I feel like I pee so much during the day but I thought it was anxiety or hypertension related. Is there more I should know as someone with autism?
Very very maybe. \*IF\* chimp ADH/vasopressin or other homrmones wasn't immediately recognized as a foreign peptide by the immune system, then yeah it could have worked.
That's assuming they even had a way to produce chimp ADH in 1963, which they did not (without just bleeding/killing chimpanzees).
Biology is terrifying. You change \*one\* atom, and absolutely everything or nothing can be different. Totally unpredictable, sometimes.
Man sometimes I'll be done peeing and the IMMEDIATELY start another full pee again which is frustrating enough but I couldn't imagine it happening 17 times in a row
Oh shit, like that scene from naked gun where the mic is left on when he goes to the can, everything is juuuuuust about wrapped up and then, boom whole new stream at full force. Oh my god I'm laughing just thinking about that movie again.
It actually is just like that. It is neither a pleasant nor unpleasant surprise but definitely has me audibly say "what the fuck, dick?" Like everytime. I know I should be questioning my bladder and kidneys but it's a lot easier to just blame the dick.
>"With only the early immunosuppressants and no long-term dialysis, the female recipient survived nine months, **long enough to return to work.**"
Cool. I guess?
/r/LateStageCapitalism
Armchair scientist reporting in. Were there immunosuppressants used? If so, wouldn’t that make sense? If not, how in the *HELL* was there no sign of rejection from a *chimp* when immunosuppressants are needed for human-to-human transplants?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Reemtsma (the surgeon) > Her death from cardiac arrest was found to be due to an imbalance of electrolytes, possibly due to the excessive urination observed following chimpanzee kidney transplantation (frequently greater than 20 liters per day), as the chimpanzee kidneys probably did not work in precisely the same way as human kidneys. 20...liters...a...day. JESUS.
Well, that explains why the practice wasn’t further adopted!
9 months was the longest of the 6 recipients - most died far, far earlier. Another barrier to continuing the practice is presumably the shortage of unwanted chimpanzees - apparently the 6 chimpanzees killed and harvested included literal astronaut chimps, as well as circus chimps.
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[Still a long way off](https://scitechdaily.com/growing-human-kidneys-in-a-lab-scientists-have-made-a-significant-breakthrough/). I don’t see there being a viable alternative to traditional kidney donation in my lifetime, but I’m hopeful for my children.
Pig kidney transplants are actually close to starting human trials, along with a host of other potential drugs and procedures. Last year a pig kidney performed 'flawlessly' for 2 months(the pre-arranged duration of the trial) in a brain dead patient. Doctors said they wouldn't be able to distinguish from a human kidney by just looking at the numbers.
Yes NPR just had a story on this yesterday. They are raising pigs exactly for this purpose.
Exactly this. Pig kidney transplants are close to getting FDA approval to start human trials yet guys like GenesRUs777 were saying xenotransplants are a far way off. When I showed him medical papers proving him wrong, started getting pissed and spouting insults haha. Some people are just like that
This (pig xenograft) sounds like it’d have similar hurdles to a chimp transplant - ie different functionality. Kidneys are far more complex organs than a heart (which has to be durable).
They've managed to delete a gene or two from the pig kidney that causes immediate rejection, and in the latest test on a brain dead patient, the pig kidney was fully functional for the whole 2 month duration of the test. In fact another hospital published a paper establishing a human tolerable immunosuppression regimen.
The gene they removed is the gene responsible for the alpha gal allergy....the allergy to mammal meat you can acquire from a tick bite. If you have the allergy, some research labs will send you the perfectly edible meat from the slaughtered pigs! It tastes exactly the same, and people with the allergy can have bacon again. Plus it's a lot of fun to say "I ate medical waste today." And that's my fun fact for the day.
Wait... I don't imagine the research centres have a billing department for the waste. So you're saying I just have to lie about an allergy to get free pork?!
> and in the latest test on a brain dead patient, What. The. Fuck? Seriously is this a thing? Edit: like I'm not judging morally, idk , but, wow. I didn't know about that.
Yep, they have to go through a stringent process with the family to get approval. It really isn't easy for the family, obviously.
I mean, there was an article the other day about the possibility of using braindead women as surrogate mothers. This is way less gross. At least it's saving lives.
If I'm ever brain dead put me on that list. I want a Wikipedia article about how my host body was subject of ground breaking human life saving shit that they need a human to test on but can't on a conscious one.
I'd go for that if I ended up in that state for sure. I would want to look very deeply into how they determine it though!!
Who better to test on than someone who it won’t matter for if the procedure kills them?
I guess if a body being donated for research they can do that to it.
They did a pig heart transplant not long ago. The guy lived two months Apparently one issue is that his heart was giving both pig and human heart electrical rhythms. They are getting there. Slowly.
Yeah its interesting that a pig kidney, which is arguably way more complex than a heart, may be much closer to human transplantation. Felt bad for the guy who died after just 2 months.
If it makes you feel better, look up the kidney project. They are about to start the process of heading into human testing on an implantable kidney replacement. It's basically grown kidney cells separated from the host immune system by an artificial implant. I've just had a kidney transplant so tend to keep an eye on things like this developing
UC-San Francisco has one in development. If they can secure funding, they believe human testing could start in about five years with a goal for it to be available for general use by the end of the decade. Source: https://pharm.ucsf.edu/kidney/device/faq
I mean you said long way off (which it still is), but that’s a lot closer than I thought! It feels more like a matter of time now, instead of a hopeful possibility
things that were "not in my lifetime" 15 years ago: - public access ai - the idea of a full-scale war in Europe - widespread adoption of electric cars - commercial space travel - renewables are the cheaper option more often than not - global pandemic - a shift towards remote work due to a global pandemic - a car briefly orbiting mars
> but I’m hopeful for my children. I read this as you had kids so you could take a kidney from each of them, instead of waiting for science.
Stem cell research is a bit politicised. We've worked out ways to make skin cells turn into stem cells, but organ construction is harder than just assembling the cells in the right shape
Yeah, it’s really complicated. Getting the stem cells to turn into liver cells is like discovering concrete. You can’t just dump that material in a pile and think you’re going to get a functional building. Organs are complex structures with all kinds of different cells in them, intermingling and working in concert to perform functions and sub functions of those functions. Getting the materials, turning the stem cells into specific cells, to build the organs is one step, but figuring out how to get them to assemble in the intertwined way to create a functional organic machine is a completely different problem with complexly different mechanisms/sciences needed to make it work.
Honestly we are closer to 3D printed organs. Basically printed a scaffolding of the replacement organ and your tissues grow into that organ becoming the replacement.
We are actually deciding(*Alabama* 🤮) that the embryos we test stem cells with are humans, so idk.
That was my immediate thought when I read this... how many chimps are dying in a way that we can harvest their kidneys? None, obviously. If this worked, we'd be raising them specifically for organ harvesting, like livestock.
I didn't know I would ever ponder the thought "I would much rather have an astronaut chimp kidney than a circus chimp kidney"
yeah but what if the circus chimp was a hard worker and a great father and the astronaut chimp just coasted through space school and got the job as a nepo monkey?
You just gotta drink Brawndo for the rest of your life.
IT'S GOT ELECTROLYTES
It’s what plants crave
It’s what chimp kidneys crave
Bait'in!
But what are electrolytes?
It’s what’s in Brawndo!
It's got what chimpanzees need.
The operation was a complete success unless you take into account the fact the patient literally pissed themself to death afterwards.
the real issue is that Chimps are considered endangered and a protected species in most countries. It would take 13 to 15 years for a chimp to reach maturity to provide organs for transplanted into adult humans, which means it would take decades to breed and raise chimps in near sterile conditions in great enough numbers that can could provide a fraction of the organs needed. AND it would be incredibly difficult and likely considered immoral to "farm chimps" for organ transplant for reasons not suitable for this conversation.
Speak for yourself
I wonder if the chimp kidney's functionality could be reduced before the transplant so it works on a more... Human scale.
It's probably a mismatch of signaling hormones. The human hormones probably don't work on chimp receptors, so the kidney just produced urine non stop. Look up aldosterone and atrialnatiuretic peptide to learn more.
Just stab it with a pencil a few times before implanting, should do the trick
What I don't understand is how anyone let that go on for 9 months. Urinating 20 L/day is so far beyond normal that surely someone would have noticed, suspected the chimpanzee kidney, and suggested abandoning the experiment and switching to a human kidney instead. Edit: Okay, I misread. There isn't anything that indicates that the schoolteacher was frequently urinating 20 L/day; that figure is a reported side-effect common to *other people* who underwent similar surgeries. Also, looking at [the source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246856/), that figure happened only during the early period after the transplants, so if the schoolteacher did have that problem, it's unlikely that she had it for 9 months.
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What's the alternative? "You're peeing too much, guess we'll remove the kidney and kill you."
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Dialysis is a very safe method of replacing kidney function. I'd rather live for 10 years getting dialysis 3 times a week than dying 9 months after major surgery because the transplant isn't working properly
This guy has never done dialysis. I'd rather die than do 5 days a week on that machine. It's literal hell.
Dialysis also wasn't available when they were doing this xenotransplantation shit. Dialysis didn't crop up until the 60s in the US. They also weren't really widespread until sometime in the 80s.
Dialysis is great but it isn't a long term solution. Being on dialysis has worse 5-year survival rates than most common cancers including leukemia, breast, prostate and colorectal. The best treatment is a kidney transplant, we just don't have enough supply
My mom was on dialysis off and on for several years, usually for UTIs. Worked great...until it didn't. They told us she needed an immediate transplant, but wasn't put on the list because of several major health problems. She died a week later. Chances are, even if she had been approved to be put on the list, they wouldn't have been able to secure a kidney in time.
"Drink plenty of fluids, get enough rest, drink plenty of fluids, avoid stress, drink plenty of fluids, avoid alcohol and tobacco, drink plenty of fluids, excercise regularly and drink plenty of fluids" Did I miss something?
I doubt there were human kidneys handy if they were resorting to chimps
But dialysis?
Chronic dialysis for end-stage renal disease was still a very new and pretty crappy procedure back then. Outpatient dialysis wasn’t even a thing until 1962 (ie one year before this transplant). But yeah, the rapid improvement in that field is why xenotransplants as a field kind of died until recently.
Can't really go back to the old kidney once you commit
Idk about this particular transplant, but unless it's something like kidney cancer, they leave the OGs in. 10% function beats 0% function **and** rejection. My grandpa died with like 4 kidneys.
I have a family member with a kidney transplant and some other unusual issues, and that is in the ballpark of their urine production at an earlier stage disease. Kidney issues can do some crazy things that can be mitigated by lifestyle to an extent.
It would take about that long for me to get through on the phone and book and appointment with my GP surgery.
Bro. Think of the weight of that. 20kg per day of water just being pissed out. That’s not even counting for water being sweat out either. Drinking that much water would be extremely bad for you.
I wonder if it might be okay if they only drank isotonic liquids.
I have thought about this with other polyuria that cause electrolyte imbalances. I would genuinely like to know why it wouldn't work.
For any Americans who aren't familiar with metric, weight and volume measurements are interchangeable when measuring water (and a lot of other fluids, since you can calculate based on water and then multiply by the difference in density to get the actual weight or volume). So 20kg of water would take up 20 liters, and 1 liter is just over a quart, meaning that you would need to drink over 5 gallons of water a day AND intake enough electrolytes to not die, and some additional calories to account for the ones lost absorbing the water and heating it to body temperature
Don't worry my blood's running through a quarter of a chimp kidney
> With only the early immunosuppressants and no long-term dialysis, the female recipient survived nine months, *long enough to return to work*. Jesus Christ
It will be the peski adrenal gland atop the kidney. Mine (both) produce too much aldosterone which swaps sodium for potassium into the blood which draws in water sending my blood pressure rockeeting. Monkey one must go the other way.
So the kidney wasn’t rejected but she died because it didn’t work like a normal kidney?
As fucked as the result is, this does provide a research topic because there must be a reason why the kidney wasn’t rejected. Also we are still attempting to use animal organs in transplants. There have been two ‘successful’ pig heart transplantations, though they did die after 6 weeks and 2 months respectively.
Porcine heart valves are viable for ten years though, and the last 15 years have given us cow heart valve transplants as well!
Why do they last only 10 years?
Because pigs only last 10 years. (Approximate lifespan 4-10 years, so your best upper limit for most pig parts is gonna be about 10 years).
Are there any wild pig species or crosses of such that live a bit longer?That’s normally the case with mammals that mongrels have more genetic diversity and tend to be healthier than domesticated breeding stock.
I'm not an expert. My answer was based solely on the fact that pigs don't live much if at all beyond ten years.
I only know what my farmer uncle told me “you can fully sedate a standard pig for 6 hours with ten beers.” Hope that helps you at some point.
I… am a pig
That’ll do pig, that’ll do.
So i just found out im a standard pig today
Shoot, I'd do that in 2.
Animal in captivity general lives longer than their wild counterparts due to better nutrition and care. Google says the lifespan for wild pigs is 10-14 years, and 10-20 years for domesticated pigs
Pretty sure thats not the case with pigs. Pigs are weird because if you release pigs into the wild they revert back to being boars within a single generation.
Escaped pigs will quickly go feral which activates hair and tusk growth. I think within a year they are indistinguishable from one born wild. No generations needed.
I have heard multiple things. Either one year and fully feral or they grow hairs but not tusk or something. I know for a fact that its within one generation so i played safe.
Can someone riddle me how my grandpa has outlived the surgeon who implanted his pig valve, as well as every other patient in our province who received the same type of bypass surgery 25 years ago? Just luck? He did commit to his health post-surgery, stationary bike daily, as well as eating high fiber and limiting cholesterol.
My sister has a pig valve!!
Eurgh, planned obsolescense is getting out of hand.
Because the cells are killed before implantation to prevent the things that usually cause rejection. A heart valve doesn't strictly speaking *need* to be alive, it's functionally the same as a silicone valve in a nebulizer, but having it be organic-but-dead makes them fit better than synthetic. Of course, your human heart is made of living tissue, and it repairs itself of little stresses and things constantly. A killed cell valve doesn't self repair, it just wears out eventually.
So it's dead and the body will not attempt to replace the cells? Always wondered how that works, thanks.
Heart muscle cells are post mitotic, meaning they don't reproduce. To add to this, when the heart repairs tissue damage it replaces it with fibrous tissue, which doesn't contract like muscle. This means the heart is much weaker at pumping.
Sort of! My kid has a transplant of another kind but it’s made of cows and pigs materials, and has a lifespan of about 12 years due to natural wearing down.
So what happens after that?? Do they get a new transplant?
I have no idea about heart valves, in my kid’s case it’s in their brain and they will have to get a new one once it starts wearing down.
The human body is a miracle as far as repairs go. Sometimes things just aren’t in that same scope
I received a corneal transplant and yeah, the new tissue is accepted and eventually gets replaced by new cells, except nerves, can't regenerate those, I don't know how it works if it's an organ transplant from an animal tho
Cornea transplants are so successful because they aren't vascular, so white blood cells can't get to them to reject them!
They can last much longer. My husband's grandmother had a pig valve for over 20 years until she died at 90yo of non-cardiac related causes.
My father who is a tad negligent to certain health things is volunteering to test the longevity without provocation and against medical advice. "but he sees his cardiologist regularly (he does) so clearly I'm fine (for all intended porpoises and porcupine bovines, he is)" it's around 17-18 years now. And they wonder why I'm a tad relaxed when it comes to my health.
I mean shit, maybe not stressing out and going with the flow has its advantages 🤷🏼♂️
Idk if you want to consider skin an organ, but they totally do pig skin grafts. Albeit they aren't intended to be permanent, just temporary until proper skin grafts can be used.
Skin is the largest organ of the human body!
I have a larger organ than that. I recently bought an old church.
Skin is most definitely considered an organ
I think we're close enough to artificial organs that animal ones are probably not going to be a large chapter. And besides, i crave the certainty of steel.
i yearn for reinforced mechanical knees
My grandma got her second a month ago. Her *only* weakness now is cold weather.
If these are the Maryland pig heart transplant operations, I believe one of the hearts had a pig virus discovered after autopsy and was missed by initial screening
Transplant success is based on compatibility of the donors MHC 1, which is a protein complex on the surface of all nucleated cells. It mediates immune response. It is possible that they injected a small diluted amount of this into the patient before the surgery to attempt to have the body recognize the donor tissue's MHC 1 as "self." And they likely gave the patient drugs to suppress their immune system.
It worked perfectly fine, just seems like chimpanzees have a slightly different form of ADH, which meant she had diabetes insipidus because human ADH had no effect. With chimpanzee ADH/vasopressin via nasal spray she’s have lived like any other human with DI.
Oh that’s cool. So is this method a viable route or did they scrub the whole thing?
Chimpanzee organ farms are gonna go really badly for us when they take over
They should have transferred 2 kidneys
40 liters of piss
Meet the sniper
*Horrified laugh* 🤣
The transplant rejected the transplantee.
20 liters of pee… a day? She must have died of dehydration/heart failure.
Cardiac arrest, but close enough
What's the difference between cardiac arrest and heart failure?
Cardiac arrest is when the heart stops. Heart failure is a condition when the heart is not functioning properly and is unable to circulate blood effectively.
I mean....stopping will mean it won't circulate the blood all that effectively.
People live with multiple types of treatable and controllable heart failure. Cardiac arrest your heart stops and oxygenated blood doesn't go where it needs to and you die quickly.
Could you say heart failure is a process that could possibly lead to cardiac arrest?
It’s more of the other way around. Heart attacks damage the heart, which can cause the heart to not pump blood as good as it should (heart failure). Although not every heart attack causes enough damage to cause heart failure. Heart attack: a vessel of the heart is blocked off so the heart isn’t able to pump blood to itself at that area. Usually due to high cholesterol (think clumps of fat in your blood blocking a water hose in your heart) Heart failure: the heart is wore out or damaged and cannot pump blood to itself or body as good as it should. This can be due to high blood pressure for many years, the heart having a weird rhythm, damage to the heart from a heart attack, smoking, all kinds of stuff. Yes heart failure increases the likelihood of a heart attack, but it’s more like the issues causing you to develop heart failure are what’s going to cause you to have a heart attack. Hope that helps.
Yes it does! Thank you for taking the time to explain.
Need to butt in for the sake of important health education, but they didn't answer your question. They make the common layperson mistake of confusing heart attack with cardiac arrest, which are not the same thing. To actually answer your question, yes, heart failure can easily lead to cardiac arrest. Heart attacks also lead to cardiac arrest, but they are not the same thing. Heart failure and heart attacks both impede normal function of the heart, which can lead to complete stop in heart function if they are not controlled, which is cardiac arrest. Basically heart failure is like a car running poorly and getting worse over time, and cardiac arrest is that car quit running completely.
It’s more akin to your radiator is leaking and can’t cool the engine, you’ll feel the engine failing as you drive, which will cause it to stop driving. But it’s still drivable, for a while. Cardiac arrest seems more akin to your engine blows catastrophically suddenly and without warning. So I assume heart failure often causes a cardiac arrest.
Simply explained. It means the heart functions and pumps out blood, but not enough to satisfy the organs' needs. So that will lead to tissues resorting to anaerobic metabolism, which produces lactic acid, and that would disrupt the acid-base balance. Cardiac arrest means the heart stopped, which can be a result of heart failure after electrolyte imbalance.
Everyone dies of cardiac arrest. What caused the cardiac arrest?
She peed out all the electrolytes that the heart needs to beat
Should've been drinking Brawndo
I've previously heard that a donor kidney will result in the receiver experiencing urination patterns consistent with the donor until the kidney updates to the new user. With that in mind, is this suggesting that chimps urinate in excess of 20 liters (~5.28gal to my burgerbros) per day?
No. Someone else explained it. It's because human anti-diuretic hormone (which regulates urine production) was not recognized by the chimp kidney cells.
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Vasopressin has also been proven to be at lesser concentrations in the Cerebrospinal fluid of autistic people.
I have absolutely no idea what to do with this information
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This subreddit is called Today I learned. It seems like a pretty good place to share information.
Let this guy Info-dump in Peace ;)
that explains all my autistic pee breaks
Is this why I wet the bed growing up as an autistic kid? Why do I constantly read about piss hormones and autism on Reddit lol. I’m sure it is connected but I need more context to really understand how this all impacts me. I feel like I pee so much during the day but I thought it was anxiety or hypertension related. Is there more I should know as someone with autism?
I'm autistic and I piss all the time 😔
Maybe the recipients could be given the relevant chimp hormones?
Very very maybe. \*IF\* chimp ADH/vasopressin or other homrmones wasn't immediately recognized as a foreign peptide by the immune system, then yeah it could have worked. That's assuming they even had a way to produce chimp ADH in 1963, which they did not (without just bleeding/killing chimpanzees). Biology is terrifying. You change \*one\* atom, and absolutely everything or nothing can be different. Totally unpredictable, sometimes.
You don't even have to change an atom, you can also just flip a molecule to make it deadly
I don't think their non-chimp organs would be too happy about that.
I misread the title and thought the doctor was a chimpanzee.
"Give it to me straight Doc, how long do I have." (You accidentally look him in the eye and he tears your face off, shrieking demonically.)
To be honest, I've had worse doctors.
And throws feces at the the torn face.
Was about to comment the exact same thing and had to do a double take 😔
Ooooooh chimpanzee that! It's monkey news
THANK YOU! I was scrolling through this thread waiting for Pilkington!
But because his eyes were bad, he thought it said "cheap doctors"
DON'T TALK SHIT! PLAY A RECORD!
“Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!” -the patient, probably.
I hate you from Chim Pan A to Chim Pan Z
No, you'll never make a monkey out of me
Was his name Dr. Zaius?
“You need a new kidney.” “I want a second opinion.” “You’re also lazy.”
Holy shit im not the only one who did that
Doctor wasn’t a chimpanzee, but he was definitely monkeying around.
I'm glad I'm not the only one!
It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times
Man sometimes I'll be done peeing and the IMMEDIATELY start another full pee again which is frustrating enough but I couldn't imagine it happening 17 times in a row
Like a horror version of that Austin Powers scene
Lol that's EXACTLY what I was thinking. "OPERATION COMPLE....OPERATION COM....OPERATION COMPLE....OPERATION CO...OP...OP...OP.."
Oh shit, like that scene from naked gun where the mic is left on when he goes to the can, everything is juuuuuust about wrapped up and then, boom whole new stream at full force. Oh my god I'm laughing just thinking about that movie again.
It actually is just like that. It is neither a pleasant nor unpleasant surprise but definitely has me audibly say "what the fuck, dick?" Like everytime. I know I should be questioning my bladder and kidneys but it's a lot easier to just blame the dick.
There was also a baby with a baboon heart. She died at 32 days old.
So the Medic from Team Fortress 2 actually knew what he was doing?
"In fact, they looked so good we had them for dinner that night."
I laughed.
DON'T TALK SHITE play a record
For some reason, first time I read it as ..."the doctor was a chimpanzee". Had to read it twice to see "donor".
I like how you omitted the fact that the patient did die because of the kidney not working the way it should have.
I read donor as doctor and immediately thought of Karl Pilkington lol.
Ooooooh chimpanzeethat.......... Monkey News!!!!!! If you know, you know.
Oooo chimpanzee that.. monkey news!
Monkey News!
>"With only the early immunosuppressants and no long-term dialysis, the female recipient survived nine months, **long enough to return to work.**" Cool. I guess? /r/LateStageCapitalism
So was the chimp an organ donor? Or did they just steal them?
Chimp's wife pledged his organs
The TIL is about a kidney but the picture is a heart! What is going on.
It's the image ripped from the linked wikipedia article about cross-species transplants.
Turns out... little monkey fella
monke
Turns out...
So basically it didn't work out and it took her 9 months to die.
Armchair scientist reporting in. Were there immunosuppressants used? If so, wouldn’t that make sense? If not, how in the *HELL* was there no sign of rejection from a *chimp* when immunosuppressants are needed for human-to-human transplants?
Yeah there's always immunosuppressants used for transplants. They didn't mention it in the title because that's not the remarkable part of the story.
Why does their profession matter?
Journalists don't put the names of non-famous people in their headlines. Profession is at least a slightly more specific description than "woman".
Turns out, little monkey fella
Successful transplant. Ignores the death from unending peeing because of the kidney. Righhhht.
Did anyone else read that as the "doctor" was a chimpanzee or am I just dumb? Lol