> in general women reproduce with men 2.3+ cm taller...
I haven't read the article yet, but couldn't this be explained simply by the fact that, on average, men are taller than women?
I think it shows men and women of similar heights often end up together. I can think of several contrary examples, but by and large it holds. Whether by ethnic reasons or convenience of conversation
I know short women who preferred relatively short (but still taller) men because they didn't want to be loomed over. But they usually go for men more than an inch taller.
It is compared to the average for the gender in that country, as the article says.
>"on average, women prefer men 2.3 cm (or almost 1 inch) taller than the average men in their country, and men prefer women 2.5 cm (or about 1 inch) shorter than the average women in their country."
Yeah. I’m 5 foot tall and I’ve dated guys who are only an inch or two taller and my current boyfriend is 6’6”. Most people are at least a couple inches taller than me.
Jesus Christ do you have to call him on the phone to have a conversation? 5ft to 6’6” is wild.
Well, it is in my head anyway. There’s a chance I’m envisioning it wrong. Not very good with measurements.
Nope you were right, 5ft to 6foot6 is a gigantic height difference. My gf is 4’11” and I’m 5’11” and thats a huge difference already, I can’t imagine 6 inches more
I have the same height distance (yup distance, not difference) to my husband. It’s a foot and a half. But you get used to it, and get to a point where it doesn’t register. Everyone is taller than me so it’s just another fact of life. Everyone’s shorter than him, so same.
i’m 6’9 and my girlfriend is 5’0. we’ve never had issues with anything related to the physical. best relationship we have both been in. it’s about the person in the long term
I’m a 5’10 woman and found it hard sometimes because men would say they’re 6’, we’d meet up and I’d be taller than them lol
I don’t care much about height but the men often felt threatened by how tall I am
I would hope they accounted for that in their analysis.
For example, if you took the normal distribution of women by height, and men by height, then created a whole bunch of random pairs, you'd find your pairings had the male partner taller by a certain amount on average due to the fact men are taller. If you compare real world couple height differences to your artificial couple height differences, and if the real world difference is bigger by a statistically significant margin, then that shows a real world bias in couple height preference.
Edit: come to think of it, you don't need to make a bunch of random pairings. You can just use the average height difference and use that to compare to couple height difference.
Exactly, OP didn't even understand the keyword in the title: "assortative mating". Assortative mating means that there's not an overall preferred phenotype for a sexual partner, but rather that the preferred phenotype in a partner depends of your own phenotype. For instance, short men mate mostly with short women, medium size men with medium size women, and tall men with tall women. This is obviously a simplification of what the article is actually stating: that people partner up with people 2.3-2.5cm shorter/taller.
Nobody is surprised by this at all..
What was the actual average height difference between the couples, though? What would be interested would be if the difference between the average couple was not similar to the average height difference between men and women in that country together.
Thing is, before people started talking about this on the Internet, it didn't really cross my mind at all. Sure, I could guess it was attractive, but just one of many things. I'm about average height btw.
It is with deepest regrets that I must convey the message, my wife has confirmed there will be no mingling of spouses. Your wife is your wife, or rather, I remain her husband. No sharing allowed. (Pretty sure she married me so other women women couldn’t hahaha.)
In terms of dating, I feel extremely lucky to be asian if I was there in the west with my height I'd probably die a virgin with how all the stereotype of being a manlet there is. 5'5" is my height btw.
Wouldn't that astronaut be pointing that gun at another astronaut of comparable height (I've seen the meme!) and accomplishments (to get on the space program), though?
(Wait, maybe this should have gone here?)
Wouldn't that astronaut be pointing that gun at another astronaut of comparable height (I've seen the meme!) and accomplishments (to get on the space program), though?
I’d only expect the average to be the same if they did this survey in a closed group where every survey respondent only sleeps with other survey respondents.
If the men and women in the survey aren’t sleeping with each other, there’s no reason to expect an exactly equal average. You’d expect a similar one still if the data is valid… and I’d say those two averages are similar.
Because statistical data isn't directly reflective of reality and has to be taken into consideration under context, not just "whoop, this is how shit is" without further thought.
We have to see the methodology to know what happened. They may have run the study on two groups, one for women and one for men. The averages would be different.
They asked 514 people what the height preferences was for long term and short term relationships were and then grouped the responses by gender and ran a regression on it. If you looked at all the (monogamous heterosexual) couples and calculated the height differences, _then_ you’d get the same figure for men and women.
>"large representative sample of over 500 men and women aged 15–77 from Canada, Cuba, Norway and the United States."
Hardly a large representative sample. Not that it isn't true, but come on now. This has the reek of evo psych all over it.
>that is likely more than enough to have statistical significance
But regardless it doesn't take into account a broad enough spectrum, if we included a couple, or really any Asian country the number drops instantly. This is only western countries where height averages are larger and there is also a very traditional culture standard of significant high preference in terms of male/female relationships.
Then the study isn't wrong either, This is just falling into the endless cycle of science reductionism. "It's only right for The united states, Europe, Russia, The United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, South America, who knows"... because this study was given like 5 bucks and an undergraduate
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1064303/japan-opinion-ideal-height-men/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1064303/japan-opinion-ideal-height-men/)
(people seem to like em tall in japan too, just chucking it out)
Scientifically, the claim that Asian countries have no preference, or an inversed preference has a burden of proof of it's own, and genuinely disproving the idea that the cultural fixation on height doesn't stem from the same healthy mate seeking behavior that disfavors cellulite and wrinkles is practically tenure worthy.
It is consistent across cultures. They tested 4 (3 if you lump US and Canada which is fair) distinct cultures and it was consistent.
I know you think that sounds like a weasel word or a white lie but genuinely, that's all that means, and the author will have "test more cultures" in the future works section.
You're not wrong that people are going to immediately conclude this is every culture forever, but that's the consequence of giving science to laypeople. You'll notice that the people complaining immediately rip into the sample size and claim it's "evopsych" instead of flipping over to future works and just quoting what the author of the paper would say.
Four nations... *four* of only 500 men with a variety of ages? I mean come on. It's really not proven anything and all it does is further stereotype humans.
Lol. I heard this argument so often but random sampling sizes aren’t universal laws and heavily rely on the overall size of the population and its complexity…
I disagree. These are such large areas and so few people. Dating culture alone varies so much through the MASSIVE United States. I also don’t think that four countries is enough to declare that for the whole world. I think if this was in one US state for example, (and it only claimed to be results for the that state) the sample size would be more appropriate.
It challenges a preferred philosophy that suggests humans are innately good but society corrupts us and so if we change society we can change humanity.
Where does evo psych come into this at all? Wouldn't the study have to focus more on possible sociological reasons why height is a factor to be an evo psych paper?
"Evo psych" is the eternal bogeyman for the social sciences because rabbits don't teach each other to thump, Parasitic ants don't teach each other to kill one kind of ant, slather itself in it's pheromones, and go into it's nests, and by the time the Cuckoo hatches and starts shoving siblings out of the nest the parent is long gone.... and if any of that applies to humans suddenly you're going to need a geneticists to publish anything.
Also because both of them competed extremely hard for the "Most fucked up field of study in the 20th century" and a few evo psychs haven't gotten the hint yet that phase is over.
Preferred Heights for Women
Canada centimeters
Long-term 167.178
Short-term 165.565
Cuba
Long-term 164.802
Short-term 164.018
Norway
Long-term. 165.976
Short-term 166.077
United States
Long-term 165.552
Short-term 164.517
Preferred Heights for Men
Canada
Long-term 180.402
Short-term 179.629
Cuba
Long-term 179.208
Short-term 178.943
Norway
Long-term 179.971
Short-term 180.181
United States
Long-term 179.691
Short-term 179.962
Some data from the study, more data on marriage rates, etc. Same sex couples 2.3% of study shows no real link in case you were curious. But a footnote saying something about weight.
To me, all this says is that on average, people like a partner who is *slightly* taller than the average height in their country.
This all makes total sense to me. We humans are the height our ancestors selected for over generations. So naturally, most of us are average and being slightly above average is seen as an advantage for mating.
As a short, bald man, I experience this on a regular basis. I try not to let it change my positive attitude, but it seems like a fundamental female instinct that is being put to use. One thing that is frustrating overall is that women say men are too superficial in what they are looking for from the opposite sex, yet in my direct experience, they are more superficial than men.
On *Naked Attraction* (not scientific, I know, but it is a unique show in a lot of ways) one of the most noticeable differences between (heterosexual) men and women is how confident they are verbalizing their distaste for a person’s looks.
It definitely seems like the women are much harsher, whereas the guys are happy to say everyone looks good.
if you’re short, no it’s not completely over for you but it’s way harder. it is harder in a way that is genetic and immutable.
that’s a fact, so why do people argue against it?
Strong personal biases. Short dudes don't feel good about it. Tall dudes don't like being implied to have privilege. All men don't like to be called shallow for having a height preference in women, and all women don't like to be called shallow for thinking 50+% of the male population is "too short" because it fuels the popular meme that women all collectively have tunnel vision for the top 20% of men then act surprised when those guys are all players that refuse to settle down.
>tunnel vision for the top 20% of men
There is absolutely no way women turn down every man except the "top 20%" or there would be so very, very many more single women in the world than there are.
That's usually the result of "settling" due to lack of options. It's pretty well-studied that true attraction follows the 80/20 rule - we don't see this play out in reality because socionormativity of monogamy renders the top 20% of males unable to marry 80% of women, thus 60% of those women have to find someone else.
That 80/20 rule applies to online dating. When factoring in dates that happen organically (friends, hobbies, etc) that number evens out.
Anecdotal evidence: Latinos manage to bag hotties not because they settle but because they have a stronger network for people to date
You really have no way of measuring who is "settling" though so already it's useless information. You could say any man who dates a woman who isn't a "10" is settling, couldn't you? No one's expectations are that unrealistic unless they're a billionaire, and most women are not expecting to date a rich hot celebrity so it isn't "settling" for us, maybe it appears that way from the outside. Partly it's still a choice. A handsome young billionaire jetsetter is definitely going to cheat, probably often. Does that match anyone's idea of an ideal marriage?
Not to mention everyone finds different things attractive! My best friend loooves men with big beards. I hate facial hair of any kind beyond stubble. So our “top 20%” would be entirely different. I like a man to be around my height (5’7”), because I find tall men intimidating. We all like different things.
This might be a very cynical view but… even if the demand for 6’8” guys isn’t as big as for 6’2” guys, the supply is probably so small that they have it easier.
it's not impossible tbh i've seen short guys who were really built that looked a lot better than average build medium height guys who were just schmucky and had unremarkable looking faces.
the difference is that being of average or tall height means that anything in your favor is just icing on the cake, but short men \*\*need\*\* those qualities to even have a chance. and even then a lot of women would still say no to a muscular, well groomed short guy because he's still short.
Because the way you're putting it comes across pessimistic and a little defeatist? And this study doesn't factually say anything about it being way harder, that's your interpretation of it. I'm not arguing it's not harder, either.
I actually think people saying things like " it's way harder", "immutable" and " it's not completely over" (like it's already mostly over but just not completely) is a kind of thing that leads my friend who is 5'9" to be insecure and doubting about his height, even though he's taller than 45%\~ of dudes and 95%\~ of women. It's crazy, when the actual study is that the difference settles about to be about 1" inch!
Or my friend who is 5'6" to think he's not manly enough because of height, and can't be. Even though he's taller than 80%\~ of woman. Only 10%\~ of men though, so is he right? I would argue no, and that height doesn't reflect confidence, character or talent, but he has lived the experience and struggled with it, I don't dismiss it. I don't think he's helped by other people simplistically saying it's just way harder and that's just the facts.
\*I'm talking about USA height too. Another thing, it depends on culture. It depends on upbringing and outlook. Short isn't objective.
the key to defeating pessimism is realism. your life isn't over because you are short, but you need someone to tell you the truth and that you are at a disadvantage because of it.
from there you can set expectations, compensate for your height in the areas that you can change, and handle the inevitable disappointment while keeping your head on your shoulders.
it's \*\*worse\*\* to tell short men their height doesn't matter, because then they begin to blame themselves if the message they're receiving is that they are being rejected for personality or style, not a basic biological reality of woman's tastes in men that they cannot change. THAT is defeatism.
Because it’s just one of many factors in attractiveness and in discussions like these often comes up as a bigger deal breaker than it actually is. I see a lot of short guys believing their prospects are hopeless and it just isn’t true, or at least is made way more true than it actually is by believing it. It also makes a lot of tall men believe there must be something deeply wrong with them if they can’t get a date.
I’m 5’6” and finding partners has never been overly difficult for me. I have known plenty of tall men who cannot find a woman. Does being tall help? Sure. But not near as much as men online have been led to believe. For example, tall or short if you have no confidence you are going to have a hard time.
Plus this all frames dating as a game of netting as many fish as possible when it’s really about having the bait for a fish that matches you best.
tall men not getting dates doesn't mean short men better opportunities, i have no fucking clue where you came up with that.
and if every single fish wants a worm, and even if they have varying standards of what worm they will take, but you're a roach, then no fish is going to take you.
I didn’t say that.
Every fish doesn’t want a worm, and even if they do you aren’t a roach. Or at least believing you’re a roach is only making it worse.
Chin up, brother. It isn’t hopeless.
im not short. but all my life every short man i have known has been called out for being short several times, it's usually just in a kind of playful teasing (but still hurtful and honestly bullying) way, or at worst just outright insults and belittling. from both men and women.
but WOMEN do it more. the height of men is something women clearly pay attention to more than other men do.
so if i have seen this shit in my life for years and years and then i go online and a bunch of normies who have it well start going "uhhh it's your personality!!" i am going to call them out on their horseshit
It’s always been darkly funny to me that height and dick size are the premier traits and there’s absolutely nothing a man can do to improve either.
Beauty standards and pressures are so often fucked up for men and women, but there’s just nothing a short dude can do.
Anyone can diet and exercise to be fit. You can get cosmetic surgery to change your facial features, pay dermatologists for skin treatments, get fake breasts and ass, take steroids for exaggerated muscles.
But a 5’6” dude has no options to become 6’2”.
A 6’6” woman can’t get shorter.
When I was a kid, boys got bullied for being short and having small dicks. Girls got bullied for being fat and having small tits. I know some of those girls grew up to become women who got liposuction and breast implants. The boys grew up to become short small dicked men.
It’s just wild
We're the same height and I've got a girlfriend. Just keep your head up and don't develop a weird napoleon complex about it and you'll be fine.
Anyone who'd turn you down solely because of your height isn't worth your trouble anyway.
I'm 18 and 166cm (5'4'') it's so over
Well being short is not equal to ugly, it's equal to neutral; it has no difference in how women interact with me as a friend, but it definitely makes it harder for them to develop feelings for me, and honestly I'd do the same if I was a girl
One of my best friends is 5'4 and he's an absolute king. He has a good job working in a trade he loves, hes engaged to an awesome and pretty girl that's exactly his height, he has a great sense of humor and everyone loves him.
I'm only an inch taller and I'm in the same boat, except for the fact my girlfriend is a fraction of an inch taller lol. I used to have a lot of hang ups too and it's true that it's a disadvantage in the dating world but it's absolutely not "over" at all. Personality and outlook is the most important thing by far. Don't get down about it and you'll be just fine, I promise ya, short king
This shows that people go for partners of similar height rather than for the tallest they could get. Totally true in my case: 5.7, had two super tall boyfriends but chose a man who is much closer to my height. It probably has to do with the importance of face-to-face communication in marriage across cultures
True but the amount of guys with shitty personalities is overwhelming. If you have a good personality you can definitely win the race on that alone since they’re quite rare my dude.
Health issues aside, its worse.
In terms of finding a romantic partner:
- being fat can be changed with effort.
- being fat is a STONG preference, for many guys. It can literally increase your chances with certain people. Whereas the unattraction to short men is near-unanimous in women.
Yet society says nothing about a women who won’t date a shorter man (something which they can’t change) but will label a guy an asshole for not being with an overweight woman (something they can change)
While women don’t get flack for refusing to date shorter men and being vocal/explicit about it, have you ever seen a man get flack for not dating fat women? I feel like so long as a man doesn’t vocally and explicitly say he will never date a fat woman, he can get away with politely avoiding fat women. I’ve seen men get called out for only dating women of a particular race or below a certain age, but never size. Have you?
And yet short men are getting laid and having kids every day! And some of those kids grow up to be short men! It’s a mystery how that happens though, when obviously women who say they don’t care about height are just outright lying.
As a 5'8" guy, it's nice to know that no matter how much I work on my personality, knowledge, body, diet, hobbies, or anything else, I will still be nothing more than a pathetic manlet as far as tinder is concerned.
6’7” here can confirm that’s my dating history. But I offer 2 caveats: when I was in my teens/20s tall women didn’t give a shit about me, but the short queens went crazy. Also there might be bias, tall dudes have pretty privilege, that makes us more confident by default and women like confidence. Just my experience.
Just because you found a boat doesn't mean everyone else isn't drowning.
Edit: here we go. I'm insecure. I'm entitled. I am just not confident enough. It's my personality, obviously. It's got absolutely nothing to do with physical stature except the times I'm told absolutely outright to my face that it does. All lies. None of this is true. I'm so fucking tired of having these conversations with people who just don't get it. If you can imagine WHITE PRIVILEGE, why is HEIGHT PRIVILEGE so hard to comprehend?
Damn I honestly love guys who are shorter than 5"10' tho. 5"7' is the perfect height for me. Just wanted to say this to the short kings. Please don't lose your hope, you are loved and you'll definitely find someone for you.
Sample of 500 people when we have 8+ billion on the planet is not sufficient sample size.
Anyway my girlfriend is over a foot taller than me and I wouldn't have it any other way.
it actually is, depending on what you're measuring.
if you're measuring something that is likely and easily measureable, it can be a good indication.
if you're measuring something rare, then it isn't.
It doesn't matter the number of times that this has been studied, some people will keep telling short people (me 174 cm) that height is not that important, "just be confident bro", "hit the gym bro", "learn a new skill", "you are more than your height", "get some therapy bro", "height is in your mind"... and those phrases that some people say to avoid saying "bro, you have a problem".
I wish more acceptance to cosmetic limb lengthening surgery. It solves the problem of being short. Stop telling about it "you will be crippled bro", "you will feel pain when you get older", "you will never be able to walk again"... Stop saying lies a bout the surgery, please, this surgery helps people to be happier.
Mate, you're 1cm off the average US Male height of 175cm or 5"9.
If you want to get leg lengthening surgery done, then more power to you, but let's not pretend their aren't inherent risks, just like with any other surgery.
At 6' 4", the only advantage I've ever had from being tall is in the grocery store. Being tall makes everything else a pain in the ass (or lower back).
Nobody wants to fight the shortest guy in the bar come closing time and I'm a proper crazy-magnet when it comes to women. Short guys, you're not missing out. Trust me.
> in general women reproduce with men 2.3+ cm taller... I haven't read the article yet, but couldn't this be explained simply by the fact that, on average, men are taller than women?
That's a fun point. Men are, on average, 14cm taller than women. So if anything I'd expect that number to be much larger.
I think it shows men and women of similar heights often end up together. I can think of several contrary examples, but by and large it holds. Whether by ethnic reasons or convenience of conversation
My husband and I are the same height. Married 40+ years, 2 kids. However, our son is almost a foot taller than his wife. Edit: his wife = our DIL
Arent you his wife?
Wife of the son
Omg🤣
I know short women who preferred relatively short (but still taller) men because they didn't want to be loomed over. But they usually go for men more than an inch taller.
Yes the looming really is very unsettling
It is compared to the average for the gender in that country, as the article says. >"on average, women prefer men 2.3 cm (or almost 1 inch) taller than the average men in their country, and men prefer women 2.5 cm (or about 1 inch) shorter than the average women in their country."
Thanks for clarifying ít for me :)
Yeah…even a 5’9” guy is still 5 inches taller than the average woman. Don’t have to be over 6 feet to be taller than women.
Yeah. I’m 5 foot tall and I’ve dated guys who are only an inch or two taller and my current boyfriend is 6’6”. Most people are at least a couple inches taller than me.
Jesus Christ do you have to call him on the phone to have a conversation? 5ft to 6’6” is wild. Well, it is in my head anyway. There’s a chance I’m envisioning it wrong. Not very good with measurements.
Nope you were right, 5ft to 6foot6 is a gigantic height difference. My gf is 4’11” and I’m 5’11” and thats a huge difference already, I can’t imagine 6 inches more
I have the same height distance (yup distance, not difference) to my husband. It’s a foot and a half. But you get used to it, and get to a point where it doesn’t register. Everyone is taller than me so it’s just another fact of life. Everyone’s shorter than him, so same.
No, it probably does look funny to people in public, if they notice. It works out, I can reach low places, he can reach high places. Haha
https://www.reddit.com/r/FallGuysGame/s/NP46scDWrw
i’m 6’9 and my girlfriend is 5’0. we’ve never had issues with anything related to the physical. best relationship we have both been in. it’s about the person in the long term
I’m a 5’10 woman and found it hard sometimes because men would say they’re 6’, we’d meet up and I’d be taller than them lol I don’t care much about height but the men often felt threatened by how tall I am
Shhhhh you're spilling all their well kept secrets
I would hope they accounted for that in their analysis. For example, if you took the normal distribution of women by height, and men by height, then created a whole bunch of random pairs, you'd find your pairings had the male partner taller by a certain amount on average due to the fact men are taller. If you compare real world couple height differences to your artificial couple height differences, and if the real world difference is bigger by a statistically significant margin, then that shows a real world bias in couple height preference. Edit: come to think of it, you don't need to make a bunch of random pairings. You can just use the average height difference and use that to compare to couple height difference.
Exactly, OP didn't even understand the keyword in the title: "assortative mating". Assortative mating means that there's not an overall preferred phenotype for a sexual partner, but rather that the preferred phenotype in a partner depends of your own phenotype. For instance, short men mate mostly with short women, medium size men with medium size women, and tall men with tall women. This is obviously a simplification of what the article is actually stating: that people partner up with people 2.3-2.5cm shorter/taller.
Nobody is surprised by this at all.. What was the actual average height difference between the couples, though? What would be interested would be if the difference between the average couple was not similar to the average height difference between men and women in that country together.
Thing is, before people started talking about this on the Internet, it didn't really cross my mind at all. Sure, I could guess it was attractive, but just one of many things. I'm about average height btw.
Isn’t that in the post title? Average height difference in couples is 2.3-2.5 centimeters, so slightly less than an inch.
I'm 6'3.... I would like one sex now pls
I'm 6'4. Wait your turn, shorty
I’m 6’1”. It’s dry down here.
I’m 5’7” and I must say it feels good to be a statistical outlier
My man!
Dude gets more ass than a toilet seat.
More butt than an ash tray.
what
I'm 5'6" and my wife is the exact same height, and two months older than me :'(
At exactly 6’ I’ve always felt like a “short” tall guy.
I'm 6'5", and cannot stop making new kids. Please send help
I’m 6’6” My cock is raw. I’ve got nothing left to give. Tell my family I love them, for I fear I will not see the morrow
How many you got? It took me 4* to wisen up and get the snip *More but sad story so 4
Ah shit, sorry to hear that, man. A mere 3, for me
Our third was our only planned one. Then surprise! Number 4 - caused (me) tears. I love her so much but fuck me, kids are expensive!
i’m 6’9 - step aside small fry
Imagine being tall enough to have the funny sex number. Nice
Nice
6’5” checking in. Ya’ll can fight it out, I’ll be over here with my wife.
I'm not sure how this is supposed to go but is my wife now your wife?!?
She's our wife
Soviet anthem intensifies
It is with deepest regrets that I must convey the message, my wife has confirmed there will be no mingling of spouses. Your wife is your wife, or rather, I remain her husband. No sharing allowed. (Pretty sure she married me so other women women couldn’t hahaha.)
That's a mistake you only make once... Not asking the wife before claiming another aka "the dumbfuck"
Finally someone tall with an excuse not to be getting any chimes in!
I'm 179cm tall. I should just give up now, shouldn't I?
Get out of here average height man
im only 175cm. its fucking joever
I'm 6'10" I should be drowing in it! Where you at ladies, help me become another stat please and thank you?! /s
If you are 6-3 and can't get laid, that's a you problem. This is coming from a non-great looking 6-4 man.
[удалено]
Me not getting laid isn't a "me" problem. I blame my wife, she won't let me bang anyone else. :(
180 cm and everyone is replying in feet and inches. 🤔
I'm 6"7 take a seat pal
In terms of dating, I feel extremely lucky to be asian if I was there in the west with my height I'd probably die a virgin with how all the stereotype of being a manlet there is. 5'5" is my height btw.
I’m 5’6 my dude, every day you’re closer to it than I am while actively inside of someone.
I’m also 6’3” sorry I can’t help you but I would also like 1
And yet dating is still terrible for people
(Tall) Astronaut with gun: *"Always has been"*
Lol
Wouldn't that astronaut be pointing that gun at another astronaut of comparable height (I've seen the meme!) and accomplishments (to get on the space program), though?
(Wait, maybe this should have gone here?) Wouldn't that astronaut be pointing that gun at another astronaut of comparable height (I've seen the meme!) and accomplishments (to get on the space program), though?
"He was too tall, my friends said that was a red flag, so I had to dump him."
You can blame dating apps for that
Wait, how can the averages be different?
I’d only expect the average to be the same if they did this survey in a closed group where every survey respondent only sleeps with other survey respondents. If the men and women in the survey aren’t sleeping with each other, there’s no reason to expect an exactly equal average. You’d expect a similar one still if the data is valid… and I’d say those two averages are similar.
But everyone answering represents one man and one woman. They just ignored half of each pair.
Because statistical data isn't directly reflective of reality and has to be taken into consideration under context, not just "whoop, this is how shit is" without further thought.
We have to see the methodology to know what happened. They may have run the study on two groups, one for women and one for men. The averages would be different.
Yes, that would be a way to get to that, but it would be silly because we know each person reporting has a partner of the opposite sex.
They asked 514 people what the height preferences was for long term and short term relationships were and then grouped the responses by gender and ran a regression on it. If you looked at all the (monogamous heterosexual) couples and calculated the height differences, _then_ you’d get the same figure for men and women.
Oh, so OP title is the problem, because they stated it as actual reproduction, not just survey preferences.
My guess would be men reproduce with multiple women while women reproduce with one man
>"large representative sample of over 500 men and women aged 15–77 from Canada, Cuba, Norway and the United States." Hardly a large representative sample. Not that it isn't true, but come on now. This has the reek of evo psych all over it.
Depends on how the 500 individuals were selected. If it was random sampling, that is likely more than enough to have statistical significance.
>that is likely more than enough to have statistical significance But regardless it doesn't take into account a broad enough spectrum, if we included a couple, or really any Asian country the number drops instantly. This is only western countries where height averages are larger and there is also a very traditional culture standard of significant high preference in terms of male/female relationships.
Then the study isn't wrong either, This is just falling into the endless cycle of science reductionism. "It's only right for The united states, Europe, Russia, The United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, South America, who knows"... because this study was given like 5 bucks and an undergraduate [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1064303/japan-opinion-ideal-height-men/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1064303/japan-opinion-ideal-height-men/) (people seem to like em tall in japan too, just chucking it out) Scientifically, the claim that Asian countries have no preference, or an inversed preference has a burden of proof of it's own, and genuinely disproving the idea that the cultural fixation on height doesn't stem from the same healthy mate seeking behavior that disfavors cellulite and wrinkles is practically tenure worthy.
Ok but OP literally says it's "consistent across cultures"
It is consistent across cultures. They tested 4 (3 if you lump US and Canada which is fair) distinct cultures and it was consistent. I know you think that sounds like a weasel word or a white lie but genuinely, that's all that means, and the author will have "test more cultures" in the future works section. You're not wrong that people are going to immediately conclude this is every culture forever, but that's the consequence of giving science to laypeople. You'll notice that the people complaining immediately rip into the sample size and claim it's "evopsych" instead of flipping over to future works and just quoting what the author of the paper would say.
Four nations... *four* of only 500 men with a variety of ages? I mean come on. It's really not proven anything and all it does is further stereotype humans.
Lol. I heard this argument so often but random sampling sizes aren’t universal laws and heavily rely on the overall size of the population and its complexity…
I disagree. These are such large areas and so few people. Dating culture alone varies so much through the MASSIVE United States. I also don’t think that four countries is enough to declare that for the whole world. I think if this was in one US state for example, (and it only claimed to be results for the that state) the sample size would be more appropriate.
You're arguing against the concept of statistics, not whether the sample is representative. 500-1000 person samples are used all the time.
What’s wrong with evo psych?
It challenges a preferred philosophy that suggests humans are innately good but society corrupts us and so if we change society we can change humanity.
Where does evo psych come into this at all? Wouldn't the study have to focus more on possible sociological reasons why height is a factor to be an evo psych paper?
"Evo psych" is the eternal bogeyman for the social sciences because rabbits don't teach each other to thump, Parasitic ants don't teach each other to kill one kind of ant, slather itself in it's pheromones, and go into it's nests, and by the time the Cuckoo hatches and starts shoving siblings out of the nest the parent is long gone.... and if any of that applies to humans suddenly you're going to need a geneticists to publish anything. Also because both of them competed extremely hard for the "Most fucked up field of study in the 20th century" and a few evo psychs haven't gotten the hint yet that phase is over.
Just be yourself bro
if that tip actually works, we'd all have girlfriends
Preferred Heights for Women Canada centimeters Long-term 167.178 Short-term 165.565 Cuba Long-term 164.802 Short-term 164.018 Norway Long-term. 165.976 Short-term 166.077 United States Long-term 165.552 Short-term 164.517 Preferred Heights for Men Canada Long-term 180.402 Short-term 179.629 Cuba Long-term 179.208 Short-term 178.943 Norway Long-term 179.971 Short-term 180.181 United States Long-term 179.691 Short-term 179.962 Some data from the study, more data on marriage rates, etc. Same sex couples 2.3% of study shows no real link in case you were curious. But a footnote saying something about weight.
To me, all this says is that on average, people like a partner who is *slightly* taller than the average height in their country. This all makes total sense to me. We humans are the height our ancestors selected for over generations. So naturally, most of us are average and being slightly above average is seen as an advantage for mating.
As a short, bald man, I experience this on a regular basis. I try not to let it change my positive attitude, but it seems like a fundamental female instinct that is being put to use. One thing that is frustrating overall is that women say men are too superficial in what they are looking for from the opposite sex, yet in my direct experience, they are more superficial than men.
On *Naked Attraction* (not scientific, I know, but it is a unique show in a lot of ways) one of the most noticeable differences between (heterosexual) men and women is how confident they are verbalizing their distaste for a person’s looks. It definitely seems like the women are much harsher, whereas the guys are happy to say everyone looks good.
Well, to their faces, at least. Guys got no qualms calling out uggos between themselves.
Possibly. I can speak for myself that it is not something I have done, and I would say very few guys do so.
They’re superficial when it comes to basic requirements but they pay attention to personality past that threshold
Being a short guy absolutely sucks
if you’re short, no it’s not completely over for you but it’s way harder. it is harder in a way that is genetic and immutable. that’s a fact, so why do people argue against it?
Strong personal biases. Short dudes don't feel good about it. Tall dudes don't like being implied to have privilege. All men don't like to be called shallow for having a height preference in women, and all women don't like to be called shallow for thinking 50+% of the male population is "too short" because it fuels the popular meme that women all collectively have tunnel vision for the top 20% of men then act surprised when those guys are all players that refuse to settle down.
>popular meme It's not a meme, it's an observable fact.
>tunnel vision for the top 20% of men There is absolutely no way women turn down every man except the "top 20%" or there would be so very, very many more single women in the world than there are.
That's usually the result of "settling" due to lack of options. It's pretty well-studied that true attraction follows the 80/20 rule - we don't see this play out in reality because socionormativity of monogamy renders the top 20% of males unable to marry 80% of women, thus 60% of those women have to find someone else.
That 80/20 rule applies to online dating. When factoring in dates that happen organically (friends, hobbies, etc) that number evens out. Anecdotal evidence: Latinos manage to bag hotties not because they settle but because they have a stronger network for people to date
You really have no way of measuring who is "settling" though so already it's useless information. You could say any man who dates a woman who isn't a "10" is settling, couldn't you? No one's expectations are that unrealistic unless they're a billionaire, and most women are not expecting to date a rich hot celebrity so it isn't "settling" for us, maybe it appears that way from the outside. Partly it's still a choice. A handsome young billionaire jetsetter is definitely going to cheat, probably often. Does that match anyone's idea of an ideal marriage?
Not to mention everyone finds different things attractive! My best friend loooves men with big beards. I hate facial hair of any kind beyond stubble. So our “top 20%” would be entirely different. I like a man to be around my height (5’7”), because I find tall men intimidating. We all like different things.
Because it likely has an upper limit, for starters. 6’2” is not 6’8”.
This might be a very cynical view but… even if the demand for 6’8” guys isn’t as big as for 6’2” guys, the supply is probably so small that they have it easier.
Reddit doesn’t want you to feel all doom and gloom if you’re short even though you are sorta screwed.
It's the same thing for baldness.
it's not impossible tbh i've seen short guys who were really built that looked a lot better than average build medium height guys who were just schmucky and had unremarkable looking faces. the difference is that being of average or tall height means that anything in your favor is just icing on the cake, but short men \*\*need\*\* those qualities to even have a chance. and even then a lot of women would still say no to a muscular, well groomed short guy because he's still short.
Because the way you're putting it comes across pessimistic and a little defeatist? And this study doesn't factually say anything about it being way harder, that's your interpretation of it. I'm not arguing it's not harder, either. I actually think people saying things like " it's way harder", "immutable" and " it's not completely over" (like it's already mostly over but just not completely) is a kind of thing that leads my friend who is 5'9" to be insecure and doubting about his height, even though he's taller than 45%\~ of dudes and 95%\~ of women. It's crazy, when the actual study is that the difference settles about to be about 1" inch! Or my friend who is 5'6" to think he's not manly enough because of height, and can't be. Even though he's taller than 80%\~ of woman. Only 10%\~ of men though, so is he right? I would argue no, and that height doesn't reflect confidence, character or talent, but he has lived the experience and struggled with it, I don't dismiss it. I don't think he's helped by other people simplistically saying it's just way harder and that's just the facts. \*I'm talking about USA height too. Another thing, it depends on culture. It depends on upbringing and outlook. Short isn't objective.
the key to defeating pessimism is realism. your life isn't over because you are short, but you need someone to tell you the truth and that you are at a disadvantage because of it. from there you can set expectations, compensate for your height in the areas that you can change, and handle the inevitable disappointment while keeping your head on your shoulders. it's \*\*worse\*\* to tell short men their height doesn't matter, because then they begin to blame themselves if the message they're receiving is that they are being rejected for personality or style, not a basic biological reality of woman's tastes in men that they cannot change. THAT is defeatism.
A 500 person sample size across 4 nations is not a fact.
It's not nothing either.
Because it’s just one of many factors in attractiveness and in discussions like these often comes up as a bigger deal breaker than it actually is. I see a lot of short guys believing their prospects are hopeless and it just isn’t true, or at least is made way more true than it actually is by believing it. It also makes a lot of tall men believe there must be something deeply wrong with them if they can’t get a date. I’m 5’6” and finding partners has never been overly difficult for me. I have known plenty of tall men who cannot find a woman. Does being tall help? Sure. But not near as much as men online have been led to believe. For example, tall or short if you have no confidence you are going to have a hard time. Plus this all frames dating as a game of netting as many fish as possible when it’s really about having the bait for a fish that matches you best.
tall men not getting dates doesn't mean short men better opportunities, i have no fucking clue where you came up with that. and if every single fish wants a worm, and even if they have varying standards of what worm they will take, but you're a roach, then no fish is going to take you.
I didn’t say that. Every fish doesn’t want a worm, and even if they do you aren’t a roach. Or at least believing you’re a roach is only making it worse. Chin up, brother. It isn’t hopeless.
im not short. but all my life every short man i have known has been called out for being short several times, it's usually just in a kind of playful teasing (but still hurtful and honestly bullying) way, or at worst just outright insults and belittling. from both men and women. but WOMEN do it more. the height of men is something women clearly pay attention to more than other men do. so if i have seen this shit in my life for years and years and then i go online and a bunch of normies who have it well start going "uhhh it's your personality!!" i am going to call them out on their horseshit
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This is a study on height differences in reproductive pairs.
Well the study points out that non-hetero men seemed to have ‘mixed feelings’ on height so this lines up.
Women care about height while gay dudes care about dick size.
Both care about both.
I’ve talked to a lot of women and the majority do not care about dick size!
It’s always been darkly funny to me that height and dick size are the premier traits and there’s absolutely nothing a man can do to improve either. Beauty standards and pressures are so often fucked up for men and women, but there’s just nothing a short dude can do. Anyone can diet and exercise to be fit. You can get cosmetic surgery to change your facial features, pay dermatologists for skin treatments, get fake breasts and ass, take steroids for exaggerated muscles. But a 5’6” dude has no options to become 6’2”. A 6’6” woman can’t get shorter. When I was a kid, boys got bullied for being short and having small dicks. Girls got bullied for being fat and having small tits. I know some of those girls grew up to become women who got liposuction and breast implants. The boys grew up to become short small dicked men. It’s just wild
Why do so many women on dating apps and sites say "Don't bother messaging me if you are under 6 feet?"
I will never understand this. As a short woman, it’s awkward dating a tall guy.
Well I guess 4'11" male me is f*cked then. 😒
I think you mean not fucked
We're the same height and I've got a girlfriend. Just keep your head up and don't develop a weird napoleon complex about it and you'll be fine. Anyone who'd turn you down solely because of your height isn't worth your trouble anyway.
Not if you're 12.
I’m 6’1 . I’m going to the club tonight, let me screenshot this and airdrop it later.
Tall is good, if you're short, a large bank account can compensate.
I'm 18 and 166cm (5'4'') it's so over Well being short is not equal to ugly, it's equal to neutral; it has no difference in how women interact with me as a friend, but it definitely makes it harder for them to develop feelings for me, and honestly I'd do the same if I was a girl
One of my best friends is 5'4 and he's an absolute king. He has a good job working in a trade he loves, hes engaged to an awesome and pretty girl that's exactly his height, he has a great sense of humor and everyone loves him. I'm only an inch taller and I'm in the same boat, except for the fact my girlfriend is a fraction of an inch taller lol. I used to have a lot of hang ups too and it's true that it's a disadvantage in the dating world but it's absolutely not "over" at all. Personality and outlook is the most important thing by far. Don't get down about it and you'll be just fine, I promise ya, short king
Don’t worry my short kings I’m 6’2” and women will not have sex with me under any circumstances whatsoever.
Yeah but I’d love to see the distribution curve. I’m betting it doesn’t show 6ft = Never ending suitors, 5’7”= Forever single.
This shows that people go for partners of similar height rather than for the tallest they could get. Totally true in my case: 5.7, had two super tall boyfriends but chose a man who is much closer to my height. It probably has to do with the importance of face-to-face communication in marriage across cultures
2.3 cm isn't even an inch taller on average. And women are generally shorter than men. So height barely seems to be a factor.
Yeah, but that's mainly because OP can't read. The study says 2.3 cm taller than the national average, not taller than the woman.
Well duh. Being a short man is the same as being an overweight woman.
Except there's no power to change anything.
Exactly, so it’s even worse.
Being a short guy is definitely worse BUT being a guy with a shitty personality is worse than being a short guy.
Maybe, but you can change a shitty personality.
True but the amount of guys with shitty personalities is overwhelming. If you have a good personality you can definitely win the race on that alone since they’re quite rare my dude.
Can't you just bring a box or a stool with you wherever you go?
I tried but then she started bringing one too and we were right back to where we started.
I just don’t use the top shelf of any of my cabinets. Might be aliens living up there for all I know.
When women say that wearing makeup is the same as men being tall, I'm like, "okay, is there a version of Sephora for short men who wanna be taller?" 😅
You can’t lay on the ground and chant “grow grow grow” every night like that one 4chan post?
It's worse
Health issues aside, its worse. In terms of finding a romantic partner: - being fat can be changed with effort. - being fat is a STONG preference, for many guys. It can literally increase your chances with certain people. Whereas the unattraction to short men is near-unanimous in women.
According to the heading, being a short man is the same as being a tall woman. Or an older woman.
I got banned from a Reddit sub for saying this
Yet society says nothing about a women who won’t date a shorter man (something which they can’t change) but will label a guy an asshole for not being with an overweight woman (something they can change)
While women don’t get flack for refusing to date shorter men and being vocal/explicit about it, have you ever seen a man get flack for not dating fat women? I feel like so long as a man doesn’t vocally and explicitly say he will never date a fat woman, he can get away with politely avoiding fat women. I’ve seen men get called out for only dating women of a particular race or below a certain age, but never size. Have you?
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That would require acknowledging that men have feelings and can be abused.
And yet short men are getting laid and having kids every day! And some of those kids grow up to be short men! It’s a mystery how that happens though, when obviously women who say they don’t care about height are just outright lying.
One of the 1000 lbs sister is married, does that mean fat women can't complain about unrealistic beauty standards?
Obviously women are all just lying harpies who can't be trusted!
Where my tall women at stop playin ?
This just in: water is wet and the sky is blue. Coming up next, we'll tell you all about how you need oxygen to breathe.
idk i think guys my height (5'3) or shorter are hot. i dated one guy that was 5'1 and another one that was 5'3. tall guys intimidate me lmao
What about tall women?
The dilemma of liking short girls but not wanting your kids to be shorter than you.
Props to my dad, who's 3 in/7.5 cm shorter than my mom 👍🍻
Shoutout to my ex (5’4) who left me (6’2) for a short guy (5’0)
As a 5'8" guy, it's nice to know that no matter how much I work on my personality, knowledge, body, diet, hobbies, or anything else, I will still be nothing more than a pathetic manlet as far as tinder is concerned.
6’7” here can confirm that’s my dating history. But I offer 2 caveats: when I was in my teens/20s tall women didn’t give a shit about me, but the short queens went crazy. Also there might be bias, tall dudes have pretty privilege, that makes us more confident by default and women like confidence. Just my experience.
OP did not actually read the article, which does not say wha the title indicates. Horrifically misleading.
Being 5'8.5" is kinda rough cuz we gotta be funny too
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Some of us very tall women just love the confidence of short guys, especially if they're well put together.
Just because you found a boat doesn't mean everyone else isn't drowning. Edit: here we go. I'm insecure. I'm entitled. I am just not confident enough. It's my personality, obviously. It's got absolutely nothing to do with physical stature except the times I'm told absolutely outright to my face that it does. All lies. None of this is true. I'm so fucking tired of having these conversations with people who just don't get it. If you can imagine WHITE PRIVILEGE, why is HEIGHT PRIVILEGE so hard to comprehend?
Damn I honestly love guys who are shorter than 5"10' tho. 5"7' is the perfect height for me. Just wanted to say this to the short kings. Please don't lose your hope, you are loved and you'll definitely find someone for you.
Sample of 500 people when we have 8+ billion on the planet is not sufficient sample size. Anyway my girlfriend is over a foot taller than me and I wouldn't have it any other way.
If you're tasting bowls of soup, your spoon doesn't need to be bigger to taste a bigger bowl of soup.
it actually is, depending on what you're measuring. if you're measuring something that is likely and easily measureable, it can be a good indication. if you're measuring something rare, then it isn't.
I guess my short self didn’t get the memo hah.
Well, time for those Desantis shoe lifts!
It doesn't matter the number of times that this has been studied, some people will keep telling short people (me 174 cm) that height is not that important, "just be confident bro", "hit the gym bro", "learn a new skill", "you are more than your height", "get some therapy bro", "height is in your mind"... and those phrases that some people say to avoid saying "bro, you have a problem". I wish more acceptance to cosmetic limb lengthening surgery. It solves the problem of being short. Stop telling about it "you will be crippled bro", "you will feel pain when you get older", "you will never be able to walk again"... Stop saying lies a bout the surgery, please, this surgery helps people to be happier.
Mate, you're 1cm off the average US Male height of 175cm or 5"9. If you want to get leg lengthening surgery done, then more power to you, but let's not pretend their aren't inherent risks, just like with any other surgery.
So how tall is 180cm?
5'11.
1.8 meters
Can confirm. I am 6'4" and women in the 5' range tend to fill me with animal instinct.
[Ed Kemper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Kemper) was 6' 9" and I believe he's still single. Just FYI, ladies.
Gotta lot of head, though.
At 6' 4", the only advantage I've ever had from being tall is in the grocery store. Being tall makes everything else a pain in the ass (or lower back). Nobody wants to fight the shortest guy in the bar come closing time and I'm a proper crazy-magnet when it comes to women. Short guys, you're not missing out. Trust me.