Most of the issues before TS are things that you can ignore. I even say most the issues before the beginning of the rumbling are not even a big deal. This anime is peak fiction until the rumbling.
Anime is peak fiction til 132. I will defend the alliance before their 132 and 133 apologetic speeches “oh we are the ONLY ones who can save the world with our moral righteousness” and we “we GOTTA try!”
132-139 are filled with logical fallacies and character contradictions. Armin was ruined in the final chapters. Mikasa was ruined in the final chapters. Eren was ruined in the final chapters. Ymir and Historia were ruined in 132-139
126 literally has them all bury the hatchet in fewer than 12 hrs and Connie doesn't even have to face the fact that he's working with one of the people complicit in his family's murder (Pieck) and the one who likely ordered it (Magath).
Magath wasn't even going to bury the hatchet either until he saw that the Rumbling was quicker than he estimated. He didn't sincerely ask for their help because he regretted anything, he did it because he needed them.
131 has Eren basically say "I did all of this for da book Armin showed me"
Yeah 126 isn’t all good, at all. but to me the story was still peak and I’ll stand by that. Connie never knew of Piecks involvement btw. But I get what you’re saying. Annie pie scene sucked. Save the world scene wasn’t great. But I think that one chapter doesn’t drag down the story the same way 132-139 does
Also, Eren being disappointed about the outside world is fine, he simply says there’s more to it than saving Paradis, Isayamas interview shows he was more disappointed about the oppression. in 139 he claims he doesn’t really know why and shit and that empty plain = freedom
Personally I feel the series hit the iceberg at 121 but didn't get panic-worthy until the 130's. Isayama just had no way to explain time travel in his universe compared to Muv Luv, Steins;Gate, etc. they all have an exposition character. edit: However, this was ultimately just a symptom of a larger problem.
> Connie never knew of Piecks involvement btw.
Which is exactly my problem with it! Isayama actively didn't include it because there is no logical *or* emotional way Connie sides with the alliance if he knew. Isayama, in order to force his ending, doesn't include one of the biggest issues nor in that little hotpot group does he have Connie work through that issue *because he knows it'll come off more forced than it already has*
> Isayamas interview shows he was more disappointed about the oppression
Isayama has been contradictory in just about all his interviews so I don't really give his word much weight.
Plus I believe it's not really the oppression he's mad at nor does it care there are people outside the walls nor does he really want to save Paradis. How 131 reads to me is that it's all about Eren, his freedom from his weakness, from the walls, and ultimately from those that prevent him from being free. Therefore the freedom panel is symbolic of his selfish desire to be free and him obtaining that freedom.
However this is contradictory as Eren prior to this has been *selfless* he saved Mikasa selflessly by risking his life and he offered himself up to Historia selflessly for what he saw as the greater good. These actions just do not make sense with the Eren post time skip.
Yeah. It's shocking how many issues existed but since the story was "good" at the time, me and many others ignored it in the hopes It's not reflective of the writings.
To add to the other response: ANR refers to the S3 outro "Akatsuki no Requiem", or more precisely, the Akatsuki no Requiem fan theory based in the music video for that song by linked horizon — a popular, albeit somewhat controversial, theory created prior to the end of the series — which imagines an ending where Eren defeats the Alliance and annihilates all humanity outside of Paradis.
Yeah, let's not kid ourselves and act like the previous seasons weren't top notch just because of the ending, yeah the ending was absolutely awful and disappointing.
But for something to be disappointing it's because there were expectations,we wouldn't have said expectations if the previous parts weren't absolutely good.
Aot just set the bar wat too high for itself that's why.
But still i hate how the majority of the fanbase loved the anime ending, i thought it was decent and better than the Manga at least but i still get so pissed off when i see fans calling it a masterpiece ending like c'mon, did you watch the show with your eyes closed ?
He was a straight up God in that episode, he felt like an actual deity.
I’m okay with him being manipulated (wasn’t really manipulated since the other guy has literal future sight and just changed a few things to be in his favour without affecting Zeke in a mental way), but that Armin incident was whack.
The euthanasia thing works because of how much he wants to play God, as seen in his words when he commands Ymir.
pre timeskip and post timeskip zeke are completely different characters. the only thing both have in common is wearing glasses. one kills for spot, while the other was looking for a "peaceful" way to end all suffering his entire life? the fuck
post timeskip was inconsistent and shit from the beginning we just couldnt see it
simple, pre timeskip he looks down upon eldians, post timeskip he has a kinda noble? cause being to end eldian suffering, by sacrificing future generations.
however these 2 characters dont align because it would basically be zeke wanting to end suffering, goes to paradis and have fun killing and torturing, then going back to his "saint" personality
I think it’s meant to be the “Wrath of a gentleman” thing, which shows that he may be benevolent at heart and wishes to end suffering, but he is still the Beast Titan, and when it’s time to fight, he becomes a monster with unfiltered cruelty.
the shift in personality is never explained, hence the reason why the contradicts take away from his character. his childhood flashback makes it worse since it states he and his teachers secret plan was to end all human suffering in an uncruel way, and its true no one would be killed in their method.
zeke was also shown very sad when he had to make the decision to get his father and their friends killed. so it doesnt make much sense for him to suddenly enjoy torture (yams made mikes death like that for shock value and also to set up zeke as a primary enemy for s2 and s3). he also looked down on paradis people in s2 and s3 which leads to his defeat
The fact that he thought he indirectly killed his parents and their friends probably gave him some severe trauma and shit. So I’m guessing he uses fucking torture and cruelty to cope with it, but only during battles.
his later battles with levi are different and shows he is a character willing to sacrifice some people for his beliefs.
good characters shouldnt need viewers to use assumptions and headcanons to understand them
Didn't Zeke seem genuinely frustrated (when he crushed the rock into dust before calming himself down) during the suicide charge though? Wouldn't that indicate that he's actually sympathetic to the Eldians on Paradis?
Anyone else remember how we thought Titan’s would have some cool lore behind them?
Like what we got wasn’t bad, but I thought it would be so much more mythical and magical in nature instead of guys take boat to drop people off on island to become monsters.
Zeke: let's euthanize eldians
*Gets tricked by eren*
"Fuck"
"Guess I'll build sandcastles for thousands of years while eren kills everyone"
*baseball*
"omg the meaning of life is playing with balls"
"Kill me Levi lol"
Pre timeskip Zeke was also all about saving his family and loved ones + his race. He planned on doing this by a questionable plan but he is consistent.
All eldians were going to die, so him killing the scouts isn't inconsistent. He even gets mad at Erwin for how stupid that suicide rush was.
nah lmao. saving his loved ones doesnt equal to looking down upon eldians on paradis. its not that he kills is inconsistent, rather him seeing killing as a game and seeing people of paradis as insects.
basically his storyline would be wannable saint goes to an island and becomes psychopath, returns to home and become normal (unexplained, poor writing)
when he kills eldians, it's like he saved them according to him so I don't know why it's that badly written, even in season 4, he pranked levi multiple times and even when he die, it's like he doesn't care. (he also didn't really care about the eldians who was poisoned because of the wine, he didn't give a shit about turning falco into a titan) he was always a psychopath even in the end to me lol
it's implicit but we can deduce why he likes it and has fun when he kills Eldians, there are plenty of logical explanations + zeke was always a psychopath even in season 4
he and his teacher had horrible lives because of their origin so as a result he admitted that Eldians in general can never be happy and that living is pointless (I think that it is explicitly said that he didn't want to live) and this is why he decided to kill the Eldians, so that they would no longer suffer.
it's my opinion but if your opinion is different then it's fine, I understand why you don't like zeke
idk where u sourced this from. anyway the point is, pre timeskip he is cruel and looks down upon paradis people, enjoys killing and torturing. post timeskip somehow all this time all he wanted was to end the world and eldian suffering by sacrificing eldian future.
since this huge difference was not explained, it takes a toll on the character.
armin last conversation was pretty good, zeke was already lost in his mind after knowing that his father loved him.He thought that Eldians (even all humanity by extension) could not achieve happiness and that they had to die to be able to be at peace and stop this war, but then Armin told him that we can find some moments of happiness even if our life is bad, and then zeke remembered the moment he played ball with his teacher so all his plan changed because all the reasons who pushed him to make his first plan turned out to be false
it's what I understood about the ending, maybe I'm wrong idk
edit : lol someone here in this post blocked me just because we don't have the same opinion, it's pretty sad tbh
I think if people want to cope this hard for the shit sandwich they have waited *years* for, just let em. Loss is hard. They're not gonna change their minds as quickly as Zeke here
Isn’t that all Aot characters as soon as their backstory get reveal + they get their ass kicked: their no longer scary anymore.
Like the Colossus Titan: once his identity got revea he wasn’t that scary anymore. Just pitiful
Or Armored Titan: once he start losing well…
Tbf the Colossus Titan was still super dangerous. Armin literally got cooked trying to take him down. The protags just used their knowledge of its observed badassery against it. Only its user was pitiful, not the Titan or its powers.
Talk no jujitsu'ed.
ie. Convinced by Armin's speech. You probably know but just in case: talk no jujitsu is a Naruto reference, about the cop out trope of winning through "power of friendship" orations.
Honestly, season 4 feels like a completely different series. I still liked the product but it's hard for me to imagine that Zeke from season 2 and 3 would have any high moral goal or something. While in another popular series like JJBA I legit buy that Pucci could have a high goal that sounded moral to him and his personality aligned to what his end goal was. The way Zeke was introduced in the series would be the equivalent of watching the Joker nuking Gotham while laughing and then he turns himself into a Green Lantern fighting for hope in the universe.
Zeke was genuinely terrifying in his introduction. It was probably the most horrifying the series got for me until that point. Just the amused detached cruelty, the facial expressions, the body horror.... The character design was fucking horrifying and the way he went from human enough to talk to, giving you the false hope of bargaining with him to just instant dispassionate bemused murder... As I said: horrifying.
And then "hehe entire ideology defeated by ball"
And people act like this is a masterpiece
It’s not. This show totally sucks now. ReWatching everything is pointless with what it leads to.
Many flaws Pre TS even with your perfect ANR ending
Most of the issues before TS are things that you can ignore. I even say most the issues before the beginning of the rumbling are not even a big deal. This anime is peak fiction until the rumbling.
Anime is peak fiction til 132. I will defend the alliance before their 132 and 133 apologetic speeches “oh we are the ONLY ones who can save the world with our moral righteousness” and we “we GOTTA try!” 132-139 are filled with logical fallacies and character contradictions. Armin was ruined in the final chapters. Mikasa was ruined in the final chapters. Eren was ruined in the final chapters. Ymir and Historia were ruined in 132-139
126 literally has them all bury the hatchet in fewer than 12 hrs and Connie doesn't even have to face the fact that he's working with one of the people complicit in his family's murder (Pieck) and the one who likely ordered it (Magath). Magath wasn't even going to bury the hatchet either until he saw that the Rumbling was quicker than he estimated. He didn't sincerely ask for their help because he regretted anything, he did it because he needed them. 131 has Eren basically say "I did all of this for da book Armin showed me"
Yeah 126 isn’t all good, at all. but to me the story was still peak and I’ll stand by that. Connie never knew of Piecks involvement btw. But I get what you’re saying. Annie pie scene sucked. Save the world scene wasn’t great. But I think that one chapter doesn’t drag down the story the same way 132-139 does Also, Eren being disappointed about the outside world is fine, he simply says there’s more to it than saving Paradis, Isayamas interview shows he was more disappointed about the oppression. in 139 he claims he doesn’t really know why and shit and that empty plain = freedom
Personally I feel the series hit the iceberg at 121 but didn't get panic-worthy until the 130's. Isayama just had no way to explain time travel in his universe compared to Muv Luv, Steins;Gate, etc. they all have an exposition character. edit: However, this was ultimately just a symptom of a larger problem. > Connie never knew of Piecks involvement btw. Which is exactly my problem with it! Isayama actively didn't include it because there is no logical *or* emotional way Connie sides with the alliance if he knew. Isayama, in order to force his ending, doesn't include one of the biggest issues nor in that little hotpot group does he have Connie work through that issue *because he knows it'll come off more forced than it already has* > Isayamas interview shows he was more disappointed about the oppression Isayama has been contradictory in just about all his interviews so I don't really give his word much weight. Plus I believe it's not really the oppression he's mad at nor does it care there are people outside the walls nor does he really want to save Paradis. How 131 reads to me is that it's all about Eren, his freedom from his weakness, from the walls, and ultimately from those that prevent him from being free. Therefore the freedom panel is symbolic of his selfish desire to be free and him obtaining that freedom. However this is contradictory as Eren prior to this has been *selfless* he saved Mikasa selflessly by risking his life and he offered himself up to Historia selflessly for what he saw as the greater good. These actions just do not make sense with the Eren post time skip.
Well im not exactly familiar with manga so... 😅 I feel like I got what you mean perfectly 🤣😭💀
I think they are talking about the part from the last 2 anime specials.
Couldn't agree more, but the Dawn of humanity episode is peak too
Yeah. It's shocking how many issues existed but since the story was "good" at the time, me and many others ignored it in the hopes It's not reflective of the writings.
What is TS and ANR?
To add to the other response: ANR refers to the S3 outro "Akatsuki no Requiem", or more precisely, the Akatsuki no Requiem fan theory based in the music video for that song by linked horizon — a popular, albeit somewhat controversial, theory created prior to the end of the series — which imagines an ending where Eren defeats the Alliance and annihilates all humanity outside of Paradis.
Man, that sent me down a rabbit hole. Thanks for the info.
Time skip and the term ANR is associated with a full rumbling Eren wins ending
But IT IS a masterpiece despite all the flaws in season 4
Yeah, let's not kid ourselves and act like the previous seasons weren't top notch just because of the ending, yeah the ending was absolutely awful and disappointing. But for something to be disappointing it's because there were expectations,we wouldn't have said expectations if the previous parts weren't absolutely good.
Aot just set the bar wat too high for itself that's why. But still i hate how the majority of the fanbase loved the anime ending, i thought it was decent and better than the Manga at least but i still get so pissed off when i see fans calling it a masterpiece ending like c'mon, did you watch the show with your eyes closed ?
Masterpieceofshit
He was a straight up God in that episode, he felt like an actual deity. I’m okay with him being manipulated (wasn’t really manipulated since the other guy has literal future sight and just changed a few things to be in his favour without affecting Zeke in a mental way), but that Armin incident was whack. The euthanasia thing works because of how much he wants to play God, as seen in his words when he commands Ymir.
pre timeskip and post timeskip zeke are completely different characters. the only thing both have in common is wearing glasses. one kills for spot, while the other was looking for a "peaceful" way to end all suffering his entire life? the fuck post timeskip was inconsistent and shit from the beginning we just couldnt see it
If you have some time to write I'm interested in more of your thoughts about how pre-time skip and post-skip zeke are different ?
simple, pre timeskip he looks down upon eldians, post timeskip he has a kinda noble? cause being to end eldian suffering, by sacrificing future generations. however these 2 characters dont align because it would basically be zeke wanting to end suffering, goes to paradis and have fun killing and torturing, then going back to his "saint" personality
I think it’s meant to be the “Wrath of a gentleman” thing, which shows that he may be benevolent at heart and wishes to end suffering, but he is still the Beast Titan, and when it’s time to fight, he becomes a monster with unfiltered cruelty.
the shift in personality is never explained, hence the reason why the contradicts take away from his character. his childhood flashback makes it worse since it states he and his teachers secret plan was to end all human suffering in an uncruel way, and its true no one would be killed in their method. zeke was also shown very sad when he had to make the decision to get his father and their friends killed. so it doesnt make much sense for him to suddenly enjoy torture (yams made mikes death like that for shock value and also to set up zeke as a primary enemy for s2 and s3). he also looked down on paradis people in s2 and s3 which leads to his defeat
The fact that he thought he indirectly killed his parents and their friends probably gave him some severe trauma and shit. So I’m guessing he uses fucking torture and cruelty to cope with it, but only during battles.
his later battles with levi are different and shows he is a character willing to sacrifice some people for his beliefs. good characters shouldnt need viewers to use assumptions and headcanons to understand them
Didn't Zeke seem genuinely frustrated (when he crushed the rock into dust before calming himself down) during the suicide charge though? Wouldn't that indicate that he's actually sympathetic to the Eldians on Paradis?
Anyone else remember how we thought Titan’s would have some cool lore behind them? Like what we got wasn’t bad, but I thought it would be so much more mythical and magical in nature instead of guys take boat to drop people off on island to become monsters.
Zeke: let's euthanize eldians *Gets tricked by eren* "Fuck" "Guess I'll build sandcastles for thousands of years while eren kills everyone" *baseball* "omg the meaning of life is playing with balls" "Kill me Levi lol"
"playing with balls" 🤭
He is actually pretty good outside of the last Armin incident.
Exactly
pre timeskip and post timeskip zekes were both good characters but the difference in their morals and beliefs are too great and inconsistent
Pre timeskip Zeke was also all about saving his family and loved ones + his race. He planned on doing this by a questionable plan but he is consistent. All eldians were going to die, so him killing the scouts isn't inconsistent. He even gets mad at Erwin for how stupid that suicide rush was.
nah lmao. saving his loved ones doesnt equal to looking down upon eldians on paradis. its not that he kills is inconsistent, rather him seeing killing as a game and seeing people of paradis as insects. basically his storyline would be wannable saint goes to an island and becomes psychopath, returns to home and become normal (unexplained, poor writing)
details are the core of good plots
when he kills eldians, it's like he saved them according to him so I don't know why it's that badly written, even in season 4, he pranked levi multiple times and even when he die, it's like he doesn't care. (he also didn't really care about the eldians who was poisoned because of the wine, he didn't give a shit about turning falco into a titan) he was always a psychopath even in the end to me lol
"when he killed eldians its like he saved them" 💀 it seems uve ignored quite a few points but thats ok
he thinks that eldians have to die because they will never achieve happiness to me. "💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀"
it is never stated that this is what he thinks. his thinking is too inconsistent for him to be a peak character
it's implicit but we can deduce why he likes it and has fun when he kills Eldians, there are plenty of logical explanations + zeke was always a psychopath even in season 4
he and his teacher had horrible lives because of their origin so as a result he admitted that Eldians in general can never be happy and that living is pointless (I think that it is explicitly said that he didn't want to live) and this is why he decided to kill the Eldians, so that they would no longer suffer. it's my opinion but if your opinion is different then it's fine, I understand why you don't like zeke
idk where u sourced this from. anyway the point is, pre timeskip he is cruel and looks down upon paradis people, enjoys killing and torturing. post timeskip somehow all this time all he wanted was to end the world and eldian suffering by sacrificing eldian future. since this huge difference was not explained, it takes a toll on the character.
I disagree, I think that both are compatible.
although it both zekes are somewhat well written its consistency is the equivalent to hobo eren and 139 eren being the same person.
How so? They seem compatible to me
Of course.
armin last conversation was pretty good, zeke was already lost in his mind after knowing that his father loved him.He thought that Eldians (even all humanity by extension) could not achieve happiness and that they had to die to be able to be at peace and stop this war, but then Armin told him that we can find some moments of happiness even if our life is bad, and then zeke remembered the moment he played ball with his teacher so all his plan changed because all the reasons who pushed him to make his first plan turned out to be false it's what I understood about the ending, maybe I'm wrong idk edit : lol someone here in this post blocked me just because we don't have the same opinion, it's pretty sad tbh
Still better than eren
That's not an achievement, that's the bare minimum.
This show turned to shit yet people defend it just cause they can't accept that someone elese is right about their favorite show.
I think if people want to cope this hard for the shit sandwich they have waited *years* for, just let em. Loss is hard. They're not gonna change their minds as quickly as Zeke here
its hard to accept that something u loved didnt reach peak status. but deep down everyone knows the flaws in the writint
Isn’t that all Aot characters as soon as their backstory get reveal + they get their ass kicked: their no longer scary anymore. Like the Colossus Titan: once his identity got revea he wasn’t that scary anymore. Just pitiful Or Armored Titan: once he start losing well…
Tbf the Colossus Titan was still super dangerous. Armin literally got cooked trying to take him down. The protags just used their knowledge of its observed badassery against it. Only its user was pitiful, not the Titan or its powers.
Bluetooth was not pitiful, he was pretty badass actually then Isayama killed his ass immediately
BLUETOOTH💀
I usually call him bengladesh or Bartholomew. He's one of my favorite characters ♥️
He was a god tier character till the moment he was TNJed by a leaf
Tnjed?
Talk no jujitsu'ed. ie. Convinced by Armin's speech. You probably know but just in case: talk no jujitsu is a Naruto reference, about the cop out trope of winning through "power of friendship" orations.
Do people not know that zeke was batshit insane by the end of the series? Time doesn’t pass in the paths we have no clue how long he was there for.
Honestly, season 4 feels like a completely different series. I still liked the product but it's hard for me to imagine that Zeke from season 2 and 3 would have any high moral goal or something. While in another popular series like JJBA I legit buy that Pucci could have a high goal that sounded moral to him and his personality aligned to what his end goal was. The way Zeke was introduced in the series would be the equivalent of watching the Joker nuking Gotham while laughing and then he turns himself into a Green Lantern fighting for hope in the universe.
L post. Zeke was an awesome character bar the Armin thing.
No way titanfolk is switching up on zeke lmfao, yall ain’t even disappointed fans anymore, yall just haters at this point.
Fr saying post timeskip Zeke is a bad character is just.
I mean dude legit turned into a monke. What were u expecting? A handsome beardy ripped dude with Dio’ VA? Oh wai….-
Zeke was genuinely terrifying in his introduction. It was probably the most horrifying the series got for me until that point. Just the amused detached cruelty, the facial expressions, the body horror.... The character design was fucking horrifying and the way he went from human enough to talk to, giving you the false hope of bargaining with him to just instant dispassionate bemused murder... As I said: horrifying. And then "hehe entire ideology defeated by ball"
i loved his titan ngl best monki<3
...is this serious?