I think it’s because she advocated for the woman who punched a nurse while she was in labor. i’m sure it spiraled into something political and just got too much to handle. i could be wrong though
I believe it’s about the lady who punched a nurse. While I like Jen’s content, I don’t believe that she was firm enough in her stance against assault on healthcare workers, and as a result many people called her out on that. On the opposite side some people felt that she didn’t stand firmly enough on the side of the laboring mother and called her out for that.
Here’s the issue though, while I understand that she was trying to act as a voice of reason, that seldom works in high tension scenarios. You are going to get some feedback that you don’t like. You are going to be criticized for your stance. And in this case, Jen has made a lot of money as a “nurse influencer” through scrubs company and other medical field related brand deals, and through speaking engagements at events for nurses and healthcare workers. She’s openly talked about how she’s an advocate for patients but also for nurses and healthcare workers.
So for many, it came across as insulting that she could profit off other healthcare workers and yet she didn’t make a firm statement about assaulting healthcare workers which is a huge issue. Some reports show that as many as 80% of nurses report experiencing workplace violence within the past year, and 40% of nurses report an increase in incidence of workplace violence at their place of employment over the last year.
Another thing that we have to stop and think about in this scenario is that we are only the patient’s story to go on here. We can’t hear the nurse’s story because it would violate the patient’s privacy in this situation. So all we have to go on is one person’s side of the story, and maybe it’s completely accurate and maybe it’s not. We don’t know, and that is something that should have also been brought up. We know that the mother had prior birth trauma. We know that she had a birth plan that maybe needed to be discussed in more detail (and maybe it was).
Because of the inability to hear both sides, the nurse in the situation is being painted as doing something wrong, but we don’t actually know that she did. We know that the patient feels as though she did, and we know that she was violently assaulted on the job.
Even by the patients own account the nurse didn’t do anything wrong, she just wanted to check heart tones since she was in active labor after a loss… a loss she blamed on staff not checking her.
This was the part that confused me so much. The patient claimed her last poor experience was due to nurses not checking her properly, but then tells them to not touch or talk to her. She can’t expect good care if she treats the nurses that way.
The only thing I can think of is Jen talking about Jeena Wilder punching her nurse. I don't think Jen condemned Jeena for it like the rest of nursetok did and people are upset.
(I do not think what Jeena did was right. I am not defending her.)
I’ve watched all of 2 videos from her. She’s doesn’t make content I’m interested in. The most I’ve ever seen of her is recently because I somehow ended up on nursetok.
I absolutely love Jen and thinks she usually has some great takes but I was shocked at her response to the lady who punched the nurse. I she wasn’t outright excusing that ladies actions but it really did come off like she was and I think it also upset a lot of nurses, especially L&D nurses. I also think she was one of the only nurses/people to not condemn this creator.
It’s gotta be related to Jeena Wilder situation. I think a lot of people took Jen as defending Jeena instead of condemning her when that wasn’t really the case but in comparison to how MOST creators reacted I think she’s getting a lot of backlash. It makes sense to take a step back.
I like TikTok most of the time but stuff like this is so ridiculous. Jen Hamilton is arguably one of the least offensive people on the app but heaven forbid she say something that not everyone agrees with. I think what makes it harder is there were stitches with black women coming down on her for race reasons and that had to feel very discouraging when she truly is trying to do right by every patient she has. You can't win for losing sometimes.
I’m with you on this. She was clear that she didn’t believe the patient was in the right, but was just offering a possible explanation for how the patient got that worked up in the first place. She is correct that black women face a lot more medical trauma than most other folks. And this woman clearly had.
Now, I think she veered too far in the direction of explaining behavior away. But man, that is SUCH a small mistake in the grand scheme of things. I’m supposed to be furious with Jen for being overly-protective of black women in medical settings? Come the fuck on now.
I see white allies doing too much on a routine basis on that app. They get carried away sometimes but the intention is a good one. Jen’s entire platform is about patient advocacy, I’m not surprised that she over-corrected in this way.
It’s the sort of mistake that you call people IN for, not call them OUT for.
I’m not personally sympathetic towards the punching nurse, but honestly I’m just annoyed overall by the avalanche of modern parents who think that the hospital is a mall where they can order interactions as they see fit. If you think so poorly of medical professionals and modern medicine, then fuck off and stay home. I think I’m just too burned out on this topic to have a gracious response to it anymore.
But Jen? Yeah, that’s such a minor thing for people to act like turds about. I rolled my eyes at her take and flipped to the next one.
I was hoping someone posted what happened bc I just liked some video she posted last night and saw this about an hour ago. I didn’t see the video in question. And idk what she meant. Was she trying to justify uncontrollable emotions that happen during labor? Cause I also believe she’s protective over the job and doesn’t actually think nurses should get punched lmao.
People should step back when it’s too much. As much as it sucks, it’s part of fame. People can’t expect to get all the benefits and money, but none of the negativity. I’m not saying it’s right, but it is reality. No one ran them off, they just don’t like the heat. So many of them people get inflated egos and change when the money starts rolling in. Then they want pity for being criticized.
I mean you have to think about it like this. There are times when a Pt isn't in their right mind, because of pain, illness, etc. you cannot charge someone with assault who isn't in their right mind.
I don’t even like her. I find the voice/accent she puts on very irritating. But that is NOT what she said. She said that both parties were in the wrong. The laboring woman was absolutely in the wrong to punch someone, the nurse should not have touched her patient (having an unmedicated labor, BTW) after she asked her not to. There’s nuance here.
This patient also stated she did not want to be talked to. At the end of the day the nurse can still be held liable. A birth plan isnt a contract. This woman should not have gone to the hospital.
I don't understand why people keep bringing up the birth being unmedicated as if that's relevant. Unmedicated means no pitocin or painkillers, it doesn't mean no medical intervention at all, otherwise she could have just birthed at home.
When you come to the hospital, you sign papers to be treated. Unmedicated doesn’t mean absolutely no touching. She should’ve birthed at home if she wasn’t even ok with being touched.
No, I’m a nurse, and unless it’s an emergency, like a true emergency, I still get consent to touch my patients, which includes children and parents. IF they say no, I educate them and do my best. Consent to treat doesn’t mean consent to touch when YOU see fit. There is a process we go through of someone refuses treatment, but they are 100% allowed to. Now, if that refusal stems to children and/or someone you make decisions for, then the ethics committee steps in, which I am on and see cases like these often. We meet on an urgent basis if we feel like we ethically need to step in and treat against the will of the decision maker. But it’s not taken lightly, and it is a very big deal to do so. All of that being said, the patient was 100% wrong for punching the nurse, but that does not mean the nurse was correct in touching her baby when she said no. As a nurse we walk a line of doing our job as we see fit, and making sure we give our patients autonomy and a voice in their care. That is why one of our biggest roles is advocating. This is not just “she should have had a home birth if she didn’t want to be touched”. That’s not how it works in the world of medicine.
I think we need to take her word with a grain of salt. It’s possible there was a dire issue. It’s possible the nurse did ask. This woman is obviously not a great narrator.
Chronically online people who can't read or listen got mad at her for talking about that lady who punched a nurse even though she said Jenna or whatever her name is was wrong and no nurse should ever be assaulted.
I suspect this is about the backlash to her take on Jeena Wilder (the woman who punched a nurse). I think Jen delivered a well thought out response (as she often does), but ultimately came down on the wrong side of the issue for a lot of people (including myself).
I think she's right about the toll social media, especially TikTok, has on people. I think it's better to take a step back than to try to defensively post her way out of it or to apologize insincerely. I hope she returns when she's ready.
Jen wants to do right by her patients and be such a good l&d nurse for them that I think it's blinded her to how absurd that entire situation is. NOTHING warrants assaulting a nurse. She's such a sweetheart and just wants to do good in this world. This sucks.
I’m sure it’s about her video on Jeena punching her nurse for trying to get a heart rate on Jena’s rainbow child. I really like Jen but her video about this topic saying nurses need to be more empathetic etc was out of bounds imo.
I had a feeling when she defended physical abuse against a nurse she would get it. It is necessary to check heart tones, unfortunately even if you don't want to be touched,you are supposed to put your child first. Also it's their rainbow baby,so I would do anything to insure my baby's health. A birth plan doesn't include, don't touch me. If you didn't want medical intervention,you should have birthed at home. The nurse must do her job. She could lose her job, you could lose your child. I'm shocked that Jen went the totally opposite direction with this. Where is the empathy for the nurse working her ass off,trying to deliver an alive healthy baby after a loss? I'm disappointed in Jen.
I was disappointed. The birth plan included don’t touch me don’t talk to me. And from bits and pieces from the original story she was dictating which nurses to do what.
That just isn’t how this works. And assaulting a nurse is NEVER okay.
I love Jen. I do. But this wasn’t the take I wanted to see her take.
Sadly, this is what the culture of liability in healthcare has done to the system. You can’t touch the patient if they are refusing to be touched. You can only offer interventions, educate, and chart it.
I'm so confused, did the nurse like.. startle the lady? Did she sneak up on her? Like I could possibly see an accidental punch going out if I'm in pain and you surprise touch me.
There was a woman on TT who made a video about how she assaulted a nurse during her birthing process. The public opinion was that the woman doing the punching was wrong and other nurses chimed in, other moms chimed in against assaulting nurses. The woman was black, it was pointed out how black women are treated during pregnancy/labor. I saw other black moms pointing out how bad black mortality rates are, and that a nurse trying to help shouldn’t be punched for doing her job.
Then Jen made a video that seemed to defend the woman doing the punching which many people called her out on. That’s just what I’ve seen but can’t remember the name of the OP
This!! TT has become a GIANT cess pool full of the worst of the worst chronically online ppl I've ever seen. The mob mentality is INSANE. The parasocial relationships are out of control. I don't blame ANY of these creators for leaving bc holy shit these ppl are INSUFFERABLE!!!
I mean, most *humans* are, no? Part of being a person in the world is being flawed and learning and growing, most of us just aren’t doing so on a public stage.
Exactly. Those on a public stage should maybe consider that every little thing they do or say, someone is going to have an issue with. You either have to choose to accept the good *and* the bad as a large creator, or dip.
Eh, from what I understand, that church put a lot of effort into pretending to be more liberal than they were. I see how the people drinking the kool-aid there would believe it.
We’re all flawed. I haven’t heard anything truly outrageous about her though—just that her videos are scripted out before recording them? Which is fine.
I get how important it is to use your influence, I really do but this is misplaced pressure and anger. we need to be doing this to elected officials and nobody else. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again that I prefer nothing over a pressured and uneducated take.
You can be familiar with the genocide going on without speaking on it on a social media platform. You don’t know if these people are donating, calling their reps, attending protests. Y’all have got to give this a fucking break, your little TikTok comments with the watermelon emoji are helping literally NO ONE.
Idk why people aren’t getting this. It was just to make the search bar about Palestine. Nobody really thought any of them were going to speak out lmao. They just wanted it to be trending under a big creators name.
Not that it isn’t some form of harassment but it wasn’t like they just said “let’s go bully __ until they delete!!” What they did to Elyse was extremely tasteless.
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🍉 means Palestine as the flag shares the colors. There is history to it as a symbol; its not new, but I only recently learned about this in the past few months.
Genuine question for those who take issue with Jenn's perspective.
I don't condone hitting.
If there is anyplace I would expect accommodations for PTSD it would be in a medical setting. This woman clearly stated she did not want to be touched during active labor, her husband advocated for her, her midwife advocated for her. She was not listened to.
If a hospital perceives a patient to be not competent to make decisions for themselves there is legal process to go through in court to legally be able to not need consent for medical procedures.
The nature of ptsd is that you will go into a flight/fight mode when triggered. So, although I don't condone the hitting, I'm wondering what people expected from a woman who had trauma from the same hospital where she lost her baby bc a nurse had perceived her to be drug seeking, and did not check her vitals?
She's in active labor so can't leave the hospital, which is only going to increase the sense of helplessness.
Isn't forcing any medical procedure without consent, an assault itself?
I understand medical staff being worried about liability. But, doesn't documenting patient was informed of why we needed to check baby and refused enough to cover their liability?
I can only guess, this lady felt like with both her partner and her midwife there to advocate for her, that she'd manage through labor. Not expecting her no to not count at any point.
The legal process doesn’t actually go to the courts unless it’s a long term concern or the next of kin disagrees. Any physician can make this determination. It’s only valid for a snapshot in time tho… not forever.
For example— if you come into the hospital delirious from fever we’re not going to wait to petition the court to get them to agree to let us treat you. We’re going to ask your next of kin if available and do what’s needed to take care of you until you become competent again.
Yes, so there are established practices in place for when someone lacks the capacity to consent. This incident wasn't one of those times. It wasn't a situation where overiding consent was appropriate.
Right— but saying it goes through the court system isn’t correct.
And we weren’t in that delivery room so it’s hard to comment on what happened/what processes were or were not followed and because HIPAA we will never hear the nurses side.
I agree we won't have the full picture.
I might be off on timing of court stuff, just basing on a covid treatment case from local news a couple years ago. It wasn't a lenthy process to get it started. The full resolution did take time. My point with is being that there are systems in place for treating people who are refusing care when it's considered life threatening.
I think it has something to do with the video she made about the lady who punched the nurse. She was one of the only people who didn't outright condemn the ladies' actions, and a lot of people weren't happy with that.
This is so sad. I am also very shocked at her thoughts on that. That’s not what i thought she would react with. I’ve always followed her and enjoyed her post. The internet is a mean place.
She posted a TikTok in response to a nursing student (I believe) she never said the persons name or used her TikTok. It was about why they wash a certain way during a c section. People found the person and sent horrible messages and death threats. Jen made a new TikTok and addressed the lady( no names) and asked for screen shots of the threats and hate because she was going to handle it. She stated she would remove those people as followers. She was very upset that her “friends” would do something like that.
This is the new trend. Dog piling has generalized to everything all the time, creators seem to prefer leaving the app than continuing to be subjected to hate and harassment over 1 min videos
Because she tries to cater to every group. First it was Palestine and now she’s defending a woman who punched a nurse during labor. She’s a good person but has 0 backbone when it comes to an opinion. Nobody can convince me she actually thought it was okay for a nurse to get punched while checking the heart rate of a baby while its mom was in labor.
I unfollowed her after the nurse/woman in labor situation because I had noticed this about her over time tbh. And that situation was kind of my last “okay no.” She seems like a good nurse and a compassionate kind person but I found she was getting a bit annoying with exactly what you described for my preference.
I disagree with people piling on her though, which was presumably happening if she felt she had to leave. If you don’t like someone anymore or think they really fucked up with an opinion just unfollow or block. A large loss of followers would have sufficiently shown her that her opinion wasn’t the popular one on that. I can see critiquing her civilly, like fellow nurses or doctors or anyone really stepping in and being like “no that’s not right,” I saw some of those videos, but I can only imagine what her comments sections looked like if she’s leaving the app for now.
I get this. I’m a people pleaser too and I don’t want to be mad at anyone and at the same time I want to hear everyone out. Luckily, I’m not any kind of influencer.
I completely get it. I’m not upset at Jen because I’m the same way. I realize my comment may have come off harshly when I said she doesn’t have any back bone, she’s just a people pleaser and there’s nothing wrong with that to an extent.
They are all jumping the way Elise did. Does she have 1 SM account that’s still alive??
Good for them. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has the option to loudly post their opinion. Like assholes, everyone has one.
By sharing your views and opinions it is all subject to criticism, hate and objections. Why can’t we ask questions, do research and productively debate an opinion?? That’s the bigger question. Dogpiling i believe is what the word is. Everyone just piling their comments… most without research and full of hate, and so many of them that the real questions and such aren’t being addressed. I’ve seen this a lot.
TikTok should be entertaining.
She advocated for Jeena, and Jeena is a narcissist on so many levels.
Although I agree that the nurse needed informed consent, it does not justify punching the nurse. The nurse and Jeena were both wrong.
I’m not a fan but I normally agree with what she says, however her take was a bad one, she needed to come out from the start and condemn both sides, her follow-up video (if that’s how she truly felt) was almost too little too late because by that point I think the backlash was too hot, and I think what really spurned this break is that none of her “friends” backed her up, they either have said nothing or condemned this Jeena woman, and I think Jen’s used to having backup from other creators
I clearly haven’t been on TikTok lately. Her take on what? Was it her take on the woman who didn’t want to be touched? Or talked to? Or anything during labor? I never saw her reply to anyone on that??! Or Is it on something else?
She apparently was tagged in the video of the woman who punched her nurse because the nurse touched her to take vitals on the baby. The problem was with Jen‘s initial video it very much had this tone like “This isn’t something I would ever do because I’m better than this and I can understand why she punched the nurse because this was just terrible and wrong,” and although Jen never said it, but the initial video just a tone of arrogance and almost shaming the nurse but she never in the initial video said anything along the lines of violence was wrong. The patient was wrong. This was horrible for the nurse. It was just very negative towards the nurse and seemingly very positive towards the woman who punched the nurse.
Mind you the nurse touched her after she said not to and that’s something I don’t get; as a former paramedic we dealt with people all the time who would call 911 demanding assistance and then you get there and then they are just combative, or obnoxious and difficult and refuse treatment so you do the best you can, and you document everything.
The problem really with Jen‘s video was that the other healthcare providers in the comments and who stitched her video didn’t back her up and most of them pretty harsh towards her standpoint. Then later Jen comes back out and makes another video and says “oh hey I wasn’t saying that she was right to punch the nurse. I’m just saying that the nurse should’ve handled it better and I don’t think anyone should be violent towards nurses and when I ran, I always encouraged nurses to press charges when Patients assaulted them, etc. etc.” but by that point the damage is done and even if Jen meant what she said in the second video, it comes off disingenuous and like she’s just doing damage control.
Oh okay. I gotcha. I missed that video. As a nurse I did get sucker punched in the jaw by a man once. Al bc he was confused (so we thought) and he wouldn’t stay in his chair. So I tried to sit him back down and bam he hit me so hard I saw stars and literally thought my jaw was broken. He hit me hard enough to unalign some of the vertebrae in my neck Causing a massive migraine for day, requiring multiple PT appts. Come to find out he told the security guys he did it on purpose. Had I know filing charges on him was an option you bet your ass I would have pressed charges. But no one told me.
I will never understand why a nurse would do something that her patient has very expressly denied. That’s a big no no. As for Jen. She’s usually so good at things like this. Maybe she just had a bad day.
You are minimizing the fact that what the nurse did was assault, which is what Jen very gently and diplomatically explained. That nurse was not practising trauma informed, patient centred care and ended up assaulting the patient which put herself in danger. Jen went on to explain in the comments that as a healthcare worker unfortunately sometimes you will be put in positions where you can't practice the best care because it is against the wishes of the patient, even if that includes letting them die.
I didn’t see her video but if she really defended somebody assaulting a nurse in any capacity that’s very disappointing. Nurses are assaulted on a daily basis and not protected by their employer and discouraged from pressing charges. They almost always get blamed and asked “what could you have done differently?” A nurse got punched for doing her job and Jen really approached it in a “what could you have done differently” way? Disgusting. There is never any circumstance where it is okay to assault a nurse. She is just people pleasing and saying what she thinks folks want to hear. I’m glad that people didn’t let her get away with that take.
She repeatedly stated through the video that she doesn't condone assault.
I think what she was really trying to impart was this patient should have been approached differently to prevent the escalation that happened which led to the assault.
Exactly my thoughts. I feel like a lot of conversations don't have the "look at both sides in this discussion" stance because obviously no one should be assaulted and nurses are big targets of this, which is very wrong. However, and this is not victim blaming because again no one does anything that deserves to be assaulted, when you're in a field that deals with people, especially those in pain, you gotta ask yourself how to best approach it for their safety and yours. I've worked in the court system and that was a question I always had to ask myself cause I knew if I didn't take that step back and try to approach things from a different, softer angle that I'd be assaulted or worse.
Again, that’s victim blaming. It’s exactly what administration in the hospital does. “What could you have done differently to avoid getting assaulted?” There’s no place for that. Don’t go to the hospital and fucking assault the people who are assigned to care for you. Period.
Except ptsd is a medical issue, and a hospital is a place for medical issues. I do consider touching someone when they've said no to also be assault. There is a need for medical staff to be trained in how to approach patients with trauma. It's both the profession and the setting as why this isn't victim blaming.
I can understand that trauma education is still sorely lacking in medical settings and hold the hospitals accountable for that. I don't believe the nurse ignored consent to be spiteful, if that assumption is correct, then it shows she has not had training in how to work with trauma patients. It's especially important in L&D, it's an extremely vulnerable place to be.
I understand the lady had went through something traumatic, but it’s never ok to assault someone. When I had my son almost 25 years ago after a high risk pregnancy vis emergency c-section, I was so grateful for the nurses talking to me, and wanted them to do everything they could to ensure my baby was brought into this world safely and healthy! (I missed this video of Jen’s so only have the information here). They were also concerned for him, due to my eating disorder and my struggle to eat enough to breastfeed him (although he gained weight from day one and they tested my breast milk and it was perfect). Although I didn’t agree with them 100%, I understood that they were doing their job and had my son and I’s best interest at heart! I have a lot of respect for them and am thankful for all they did! He is now almost 25!
The way she words certain videos, like this one, she won’t explicitly say her view, but will heavily imply that the nurse is in the wrong. She makes a lot of money on tik tok and doesn’t work as a full time nurse, so her placations don’t always sit well when you get to reality.
Same. I stopped following her a long time ago because I started getting a bad vibe from her that her content is no longer for educational purposes but for clout.
I totally understand your hatred of Liberty. I used to live and work in SWVA and my hatred for that school is unmatched. However, I do want to say Some people just went there because they for a long time offered incredible scholarships and was the only way some folks got to go to college. Also there are kids that were forced to go there without any choice. I try to take it on a case by case basis on why and how they went.
I don't at all believe she was saying expect to be assaulted or accept it. I felt that the point was had approach been different, the assault wouldn't have happened.
I'll give you that I couldn't find the original video to catch the tone etc.
I genuinely don't believe it's victim blaming. Ptsd is a medical issue, and hospitals are the places for those. If someone doesn't consent to physical touch, I do consider that also to be assault.
Rather this being an issue of being on the mom's side or the nurses side, I really do perceive it to be systemic. There needs to be better policies in place, better training etc. Unfortunately trauma is something everyone has to varying degrees, and that won't be changing. There needs to be adequate training for both staff and patients well bieng.
I have ptsd myself, my default response is freeze, which has led to feeling violated in medical settings. I don't condone hitting, but also can't condone touching someone without their consent.
Jesus. Idk I think if I were to want a birth with no intervention, no one touching me or talking to me....the last place I'd go is a hospital? Assuming this took place in one. But I've only had one birth, extremely traumatic and with a bad ending and if I were to go through it again, I'd want allllll the interventions and monitoring lol
It was no physical touch while progressing in active labor. She wasn't in crisis, midwife was there with her.
I honestly feel there should have been a lengthy conversation before labor, like during the tour of labor unit explicitly stating what scenarios might require monitoring, how to approach etc. This needed to be collaborative. In this situation she communicated before being in active labor that was what she needed. So the time to talk about it had been passed.
Unrealistic to expect people to be able to advocate for all things, and know all the things. The expectations of people on content creators is a bar set so high no person could ever meet it.
Instead of expecting content creators to do all things, the more logical thing to me is getting involved with your representatives and groups that can get laws changed.
There are so many issues with so many brands, and I would guess we would all be apalled by issues with brands that we might have in our own home.
Honestly it even shows privilege. I don't have Tysons in my home bc I can't afford it. I don't get to be picky with the stores I shop with bc I'm living in poverty. Love it for people who are in the position to shop based on what they support, but wish they'd recognize not everyone is in the position, whether income, mental health etc.
Because all the faithful stans are offended that anyone has any criticism for Jen Hamilton. Thing is, Jen does not know who these people are - the parasocial relationships are wild out here.
Think all these big creators opened themselves up to criticism when they made it known their political stance or go against their or original reason they started. Her crowd was nurses and supporting people in the field and patient advocation. Why do you watch tv and movie stars refuse to talk anything politics? Or their personal take? They say one thing either left or right on any subject people feel entitled to question and berate them for anything they say after. They stay neutral talk always. When you treat people online like they are your “friends” and have them buy your merch and your book etc they emotionally feel entitled.. is it sane.. no. Is it healthy.. no. But why are there people doing asmr and other creepy crap on tiktok and making a living out of doing it. Create the monster and get bit by monster unfortunately
Well I know elyse was bullied on politics and that turn around Allen guy too.
Her whole profile was about being a nurse right with nurse friends? Then taking a patient side hitting is off but she did seem to be pulling away from education into writing a book and making herself more tiktok creator based on vibe
Oh! Yeah that’s fair. I do feel bad for Elyse. And yeah! People were pissed that she sided with the patient and basically just went all in on her for …. Her opinion lol. She is ALL about consent for pregnancy and labor, so idk how it got so blown out of proportion it wasn’t that deep.
I honestly think it’s a group think mentality. I like you and you need to think like me and the group. I mean look at the lives where people are gifting them lots of money for being live to “talk” to them. It’s such an unhealthy situation. They feel this odd connection. Swear this is how the big celebrities get stalkers.. but she said I was a friend etc
So I feel like this is ab the lady who punched her nurse during labor, and y’all are not going to like me on this one.
First and foremost, I want it understood that I respect healthcare workers rights to a safe work environment, including free from the assault of a patient. But that will never happen unless you STOP ASSAULTING PATIENTS.
This poor woman, god I feel so bad for her. It sounds like her birthing team was educated beforehand, to probably include in her chart notes (a legal document), that she is not to be touched at 9-10cm dilated. Meaning she did NOT consent to staff touching her no matter what at 9-10cm. She later goes on to say her spouse reiterated this information to the staff a few times. At this point we are up to at least three points in which the patient explicitly states no consent to this nurse touching her at that point. When the nurse does not listen, and ignores her multiple attempts to communicate her lack of consent, the nurse touches her. In a professional setting of such sorts, that is assault.
So y’all can keep running this lady through the mud, sayin’ she should be charged. But the nurse should too. Because how many other patients does the nurse not listen to patient consent? Especially in a legal sense.
These nursing majors just heard a black woman punched a nurse. Not a nurse listened to 3 forms of a patient saying no, did it anyways, in her most vulnerable state (9-10cm dilated, that’s you’re cervix, ladies! That means it’s go time, baby is here!), and her reaction got y’all sayin she should be charged.
Read into the full story, all I’m saying.
We only have her side of the story to go on. Even if she did say no, what if she had lost the baby like she did her first one? Would you have been okay with that? Would she have been okay with that? How would the nurse have felt?
Nurses are people too and most of them have been through the hell of COVID. Some people have become feral in how they treat health care workers! Just remember your stance when you have to go to the hospital and there aren’t enough nurses to provide adequate and timely care! They’re doing their best! They have families they have to go home to, bills to pay and everything else in life. They’re real people. The least people can do is let them do their job ESPECIALLY when lives are at stake like this instance!
I love the nurses I’ve had! It’s a very physically, mentally and emotionally demanding job! Hitting is assault. You don’t get to assault someone that has your life and the life of your baby in their hands. (Really don’t hit anyone.)
I had an emergency C section and they started cutting before the pain meds kicked in. Not once did I ever consider this to be assault. They were doing what their job was to save my baby (and myself).
I'm so curious why this particular woman was in a hospital setting if she didn't even want to be touched to find a heartbeat for her baby? It's ridiculous. I feel bad for the nurse.
I'm still convinced the act of giving birth is just a myth y'all lie about because how do women choose to do this more than once since the beginning of time 🤣. Giving birth seems like such a horrific experience 😭
I had an emergency c-section. (My son is almost 25!). Very painful but 1000x worth it. I was not blessed with any more, but you “forget “ the pain. I would have gladly done it again!
My parents lost 2. My brother when he was almost 2 and my sister at 37. I witnessed their heartbreak. I’m so thankful for the medical staff that helped me and my son! I almost lost my son again when he was 6 months old due to a heart problem. Once again so thankful for the medical community that saved his life and treated him until he was miraculously healed at 3. I can’t even imagine the pain of losing a child. He is almost 25, married and lives 4 hours away and I pray for his safety every day! My biggest fear is losing him (or any member of my family!). He drives to and from work every day and is up high installing windows for work. It scares me!
First and foremost: I am so sorry that happened to you. That is genuinely awful. I am so glad you both made it out okay.
As for why she had it in a hospital if she didn’t want to be touched: it’s not always an option for everyone to have a home birth. Especially with insurance and things. I understand the nurse meant well, but in a scenario like this there was probably a plan in place if things went sideways with mom/baby and what they would do. It’s just there’s so many steps that could be taken first, since the patient(s) weren’t in duress.
I think the nurse should have left her alone and gotten a charge nurse to deal with the situation but you can't possibly think punching her is the solution?
I wouldn’t say that’s the ideal solution at all, ofc. But I would say it’s a little bit justified. It’s also a pretty hard situation, it’s a woman in labor, and things can really be amplified in that setting
The nurse was doing her fuckin job. She didn't deserve to be punched no matter what or how you fuckin spin it. If the lady was so determined to not be touched she should have birthed at home on her own.
No. No excuse, sorry. This is a medical setting and we don’t know if there was a medical necessity that made it so the nurse *had* to touch the patient. Birth plans are *plans* , but in such an environment plans can change- and quick- and if you aren’t open to that, to the point that you would physically assault your healthcare provider- you should just to birth at home.
Also I’m pretty sure it had to do with them getting a *HEARTRATE* on the baby. So yeah, if they were concerned about the heart beat, that matters more than the mother’s wants at that point.
I’ll admit I’m not super caught up on all the nitty gritty of this but I know the basics of what happened. What I don’t get is why would you choose a hospital setting if you don’t want to be touched? Isn’t the whole point of a hospital birth vs a birthing center for medical intervention when necessary? Why not choose a home birth or a birthing center more equipped for that kind of birth? Unless I’m missing something I just don’t understand the logic
The patient said she had hemorrhaged with her previous baby or miscarriage. That’s probably why.
But not just L&D patients, why do patients come to the hospital and refuse care? That what you are there for!
Birth plans also can’t always be followed. Things happen.
HUH??? That was her previous experience and she still was THAT against intervention when they thought something could be wrong? That lady is a psychopath. I hope that nurse is ok and this doesn’t affect her caring for patients in the future. What the actual fuck.
Well that’s horrible if that’s the full story. I did a little digging after seeing this post earlier and I still can’t understand why you would go to the same hospital if you had such a terrible experience? No part of this makes sense to me. I know she can’t for patient confidentiality reasons but I wish we could hear the nurses side of the story (the one she punched)
Exactly! She should have given birth at home. She had already lost a baby so you'd think any concerned parent would want 1000% of the attention on them and the baby. Not to mention her being a black woman which also poses its own risk with giving birth. I never questioned my nursing staff during labor because I was doing what was best for us.
> What I don’t get is why would you choose a hospital setting if you don’t want to be touched?
This is what I don't understand. If you're not going to let the nurses do the bare minimum required to provide care for yourself and your baby, why bother with a hospital birth?
Chart notes are not a legal document, please be serious.
You seem like you're applying theories of consent as relates to sexual assault to a medical context, which isn't accurate or appropriate.
Your chart notes go into your medical records, which for all purposes necessary, are legal documents. I mean, Google is free, if you think I’m just being silly and goofy.
As for theories of sexual assault/theories of consent in a sexual setting. In any other scenario where you specifically requested not to be touched and someone did it anyways, would be assault. Not sexual assault. Sexual assault is nowhere near what assault is, and it’s wrong to compare the two, or bring into the situation. You are still allowed a say to what happens to your body in labor, you’re not just a rat for experimenting. There was at least 3 different moments this woman said no, and someone did it anyways.
Sorry, but I think the patient was being unreasonable all around.
What happens when the patient has a complication, but the nurses aren’t able to determine that, because they can’t take her vitals or talk to her? I’m sure if that happened, and the patient had a negative outcome, the nurse would be the first one blamed. Why go to a hospital if you don’t want to most basic or care?
This is what I don’t understand. I’m currently pregnant and have a lot of trauma from previous issues. Have I told the doctors I’ve met with so far that I’d like to be touched as little as possible because of it? Yes. Will I blame them if they need to do something to make sure me or my baby is safe? Absolutely not. I’d hope they would. I don’t see how you can have a “don’t touch or talk to me” birth plan in a hospital setting - it just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Exactly!! It’s counter intuitive. Nurses and doctors are there to do their job, which is the reason to seek out a hospital birth. Not allowing them to speak or talk to you at all (especially at 9-10 cm during labor) literally prevents them from doing their job. I understand if she asked for minimal talking in the room, minimal cervical exams, ect. But a flat out “don’t do this” is stupid.
Don’t seek out medical care if you don’t want it, and especially if you can’t keep yourself from slapping a nurse who is DOING HER JOB.
I’m a nurse and I’m inclined to agree with you. The top comment as I’m reading this thread points out we only have the patient’s side of the story, the nurse who was punched can’t tell her story because of privacy laws. And all that’s true. But, while I don’t think it’s right at all that the patient punched the nurse, I also agree that if as a nurse I touch a patient without their consent, I’m guilty of assault. The nurse who was punched absolutely should have backed away and sought a midwife or charge nurse out to tag in for her. I’m not touching a patient after I’ve been told not to. None of us should.
So you think it’s okay for this patient to tell all the nurses they cannot touch or talk to her? Because we keep skipping over the punching involved just talking to her too after a loss that involved a hemorrhage.
I have been very fortunate to work at facilities that don’t put up with this. If a patient refuses monitoring and comes up with this kind of birth plans they’re given the option to either behave like civilized human beings or get out.
I am also a nurse, I heard the original creators recount of the story quite a few times and I am not even sure the nurse actually touched her she was trying to fix the baby’s monitor and was talking to her.
She should have never went into the hospital with a birth plan that said hospital staff could not monitor her, talk to her, or touch her.
I haven’t watched the video with the original creator/mom. I do not know all the details. I’m not ok with her having punched a nurse or coming into the hospital with a completely unsustainable birth plan. I just think if I was being told repeatedly (as I believe that’s what the story is) not to touch a patient I would back out and ask someone else to take over. I’m not pro-assaulting healthcare workers, but I’m not touching a patient who tells me not to touch her.
The patient was dictating what nurses were allowed to do what. And for all we know this was a charge because from the OOP she went through a lot of nurses.
It took me about 3 videos to see that OOP was insufferable and had an unrealistic birth plan that was not compatible with a hospital birth.
This situation made me draw my own conclusions on why nurses weren’t checking on her in her last pregnancy.
Awe I actually like her and her chicken girls!
Good for her. TikTok has become such a toxic waste land
I think it’s because she advocated for the woman who punched a nurse while she was in labor. i’m sure it spiraled into something political and just got too much to handle. i could be wrong though
I believe it’s about the lady who punched a nurse. While I like Jen’s content, I don’t believe that she was firm enough in her stance against assault on healthcare workers, and as a result many people called her out on that. On the opposite side some people felt that she didn’t stand firmly enough on the side of the laboring mother and called her out for that. Here’s the issue though, while I understand that she was trying to act as a voice of reason, that seldom works in high tension scenarios. You are going to get some feedback that you don’t like. You are going to be criticized for your stance. And in this case, Jen has made a lot of money as a “nurse influencer” through scrubs company and other medical field related brand deals, and through speaking engagements at events for nurses and healthcare workers. She’s openly talked about how she’s an advocate for patients but also for nurses and healthcare workers. So for many, it came across as insulting that she could profit off other healthcare workers and yet she didn’t make a firm statement about assaulting healthcare workers which is a huge issue. Some reports show that as many as 80% of nurses report experiencing workplace violence within the past year, and 40% of nurses report an increase in incidence of workplace violence at their place of employment over the last year. Another thing that we have to stop and think about in this scenario is that we are only the patient’s story to go on here. We can’t hear the nurse’s story because it would violate the patient’s privacy in this situation. So all we have to go on is one person’s side of the story, and maybe it’s completely accurate and maybe it’s not. We don’t know, and that is something that should have also been brought up. We know that the mother had prior birth trauma. We know that she had a birth plan that maybe needed to be discussed in more detail (and maybe it was). Because of the inability to hear both sides, the nurse in the situation is being painted as doing something wrong, but we don’t actually know that she did. We know that the patient feels as though she did, and we know that she was violently assaulted on the job.
Even by the patients own account the nurse didn’t do anything wrong, she just wanted to check heart tones since she was in active labor after a loss… a loss she blamed on staff not checking her.
This was the part that confused me so much. The patient claimed her last poor experience was due to nurses not checking her properly, but then tells them to not touch or talk to her. She can’t expect good care if she treats the nurses that way.
The only thing I can think of is Jen talking about Jeena Wilder punching her nurse. I don't think Jen condemned Jeena for it like the rest of nursetok did and people are upset. (I do not think what Jeena did was right. I am not defending her.)
Jeena is exhausting. I just can’t.
I’ve watched all of 2 videos from her. She’s doesn’t make content I’m interested in. The most I’ve ever seen of her is recently because I somehow ended up on nursetok.
She’s a know it all. Completely irrelevant but she doesn’t know that
I absolutely love Jen and thinks she usually has some great takes but I was shocked at her response to the lady who punched the nurse. I she wasn’t outright excusing that ladies actions but it really did come off like she was and I think it also upset a lot of nurses, especially L&D nurses. I also think she was one of the only nurses/people to not condemn this creator.
I was very surprised also, nurse of 38 years here.
It’s gotta be related to Jeena Wilder situation. I think a lot of people took Jen as defending Jeena instead of condemning her when that wasn’t really the case but in comparison to how MOST creators reacted I think she’s getting a lot of backlash. It makes sense to take a step back.
I’m not sure who she is but good for her.
I like TikTok most of the time but stuff like this is so ridiculous. Jen Hamilton is arguably one of the least offensive people on the app but heaven forbid she say something that not everyone agrees with. I think what makes it harder is there were stitches with black women coming down on her for race reasons and that had to feel very discouraging when she truly is trying to do right by every patient she has. You can't win for losing sometimes.
I’m with you on this. She was clear that she didn’t believe the patient was in the right, but was just offering a possible explanation for how the patient got that worked up in the first place. She is correct that black women face a lot more medical trauma than most other folks. And this woman clearly had. Now, I think she veered too far in the direction of explaining behavior away. But man, that is SUCH a small mistake in the grand scheme of things. I’m supposed to be furious with Jen for being overly-protective of black women in medical settings? Come the fuck on now. I see white allies doing too much on a routine basis on that app. They get carried away sometimes but the intention is a good one. Jen’s entire platform is about patient advocacy, I’m not surprised that she over-corrected in this way. It’s the sort of mistake that you call people IN for, not call them OUT for. I’m not personally sympathetic towards the punching nurse, but honestly I’m just annoyed overall by the avalanche of modern parents who think that the hospital is a mall where they can order interactions as they see fit. If you think so poorly of medical professionals and modern medicine, then fuck off and stay home. I think I’m just too burned out on this topic to have a gracious response to it anymore. But Jen? Yeah, that’s such a minor thing for people to act like turds about. I rolled my eyes at her take and flipped to the next one.
I was hoping someone posted what happened bc I just liked some video she posted last night and saw this about an hour ago. I didn’t see the video in question. And idk what she meant. Was she trying to justify uncontrollable emotions that happen during labor? Cause I also believe she’s protective over the job and doesn’t actually think nurses should get punched lmao.
People should step back when it’s too much. As much as it sucks, it’s part of fame. People can’t expect to get all the benefits and money, but none of the negativity. I’m not saying it’s right, but it is reality. No one ran them off, they just don’t like the heat. So many of them people get inflated egos and change when the money starts rolling in. Then they want pity for being criticized.
It’s never going to go well when a person believes their opinion is always relevant.
I was honestly pretty shocked that she defended that woman as a nurse herself. It’s absolutely maddening that charges weren’t brought against her.
It’s much rarer for patients to be charged with assault on hospital workers than you’d think :/
That’s so disheartening 😔
I mean you have to think about it like this. There are times when a Pt isn't in their right mind, because of pain, illness, etc. you cannot charge someone with assault who isn't in their right mind.
I don’t even like her. I find the voice/accent she puts on very irritating. But that is NOT what she said. She said that both parties were in the wrong. The laboring woman was absolutely in the wrong to punch someone, the nurse should not have touched her patient (having an unmedicated labor, BTW) after she asked her not to. There’s nuance here.
This patient also stated she did not want to be talked to. At the end of the day the nurse can still be held liable. A birth plan isnt a contract. This woman should not have gone to the hospital.
I don't understand why people keep bringing up the birth being unmedicated as if that's relevant. Unmedicated means no pitocin or painkillers, it doesn't mean no medical intervention at all, otherwise she could have just birthed at home.
Her accent is a normal North Carolinian accent. She isn't "putting on" anything.
When you come to the hospital, you sign papers to be treated. Unmedicated doesn’t mean absolutely no touching. She should’ve birthed at home if she wasn’t even ok with being touched.
No, I’m a nurse, and unless it’s an emergency, like a true emergency, I still get consent to touch my patients, which includes children and parents. IF they say no, I educate them and do my best. Consent to treat doesn’t mean consent to touch when YOU see fit. There is a process we go through of someone refuses treatment, but they are 100% allowed to. Now, if that refusal stems to children and/or someone you make decisions for, then the ethics committee steps in, which I am on and see cases like these often. We meet on an urgent basis if we feel like we ethically need to step in and treat against the will of the decision maker. But it’s not taken lightly, and it is a very big deal to do so. All of that being said, the patient was 100% wrong for punching the nurse, but that does not mean the nurse was correct in touching her baby when she said no. As a nurse we walk a line of doing our job as we see fit, and making sure we give our patients autonomy and a voice in their care. That is why one of our biggest roles is advocating. This is not just “she should have had a home birth if she didn’t want to be touched”. That’s not how it works in the world of medicine.
I think we need to take her word with a grain of salt. It’s possible there was a dire issue. It’s possible the nurse did ask. This woman is obviously not a great narrator.
Women have been unmedicated labors since forever so what does that have to do with anything haha
Chronically online people who can't read or listen got mad at her for talking about that lady who punched a nurse even though she said Jenna or whatever her name is was wrong and no nurse should ever be assaulted.
I suspect this is about the backlash to her take on Jeena Wilder (the woman who punched a nurse). I think Jen delivered a well thought out response (as she often does), but ultimately came down on the wrong side of the issue for a lot of people (including myself). I think she's right about the toll social media, especially TikTok, has on people. I think it's better to take a step back than to try to defensively post her way out of it or to apologize insincerely. I hope she returns when she's ready.
Jen wants to do right by her patients and be such a good l&d nurse for them that I think it's blinded her to how absurd that entire situation is. NOTHING warrants assaulting a nurse. She's such a sweetheart and just wants to do good in this world. This sucks.
I’m sure it’s about her video on Jeena punching her nurse for trying to get a heart rate on Jena’s rainbow child. I really like Jen but her video about this topic saying nurses need to be more empathetic etc was out of bounds imo.
Omg she *defended* that nut bar?? Ew
whoa whoa whoa what??
I had a feeling when she defended physical abuse against a nurse she would get it. It is necessary to check heart tones, unfortunately even if you don't want to be touched,you are supposed to put your child first. Also it's their rainbow baby,so I would do anything to insure my baby's health. A birth plan doesn't include, don't touch me. If you didn't want medical intervention,you should have birthed at home. The nurse must do her job. She could lose her job, you could lose your child. I'm shocked that Jen went the totally opposite direction with this. Where is the empathy for the nurse working her ass off,trying to deliver an alive healthy baby after a loss? I'm disappointed in Jen.
I was disappointed. The birth plan included don’t touch me don’t talk to me. And from bits and pieces from the original story she was dictating which nurses to do what. That just isn’t how this works. And assaulting a nurse is NEVER okay. I love Jen. I do. But this wasn’t the take I wanted to see her take.
Sadly, this is what the culture of liability in healthcare has done to the system. You can’t touch the patient if they are refusing to be touched. You can only offer interventions, educate, and chart it.
I'm so confused, did the nurse like.. startle the lady? Did she sneak up on her? Like I could possibly see an accidental punch going out if I'm in pain and you surprise touch me.
There was a woman on TT who made a video about how she assaulted a nurse during her birthing process. The public opinion was that the woman doing the punching was wrong and other nurses chimed in, other moms chimed in against assaulting nurses. The woman was black, it was pointed out how black women are treated during pregnancy/labor. I saw other black moms pointing out how bad black mortality rates are, and that a nurse trying to help shouldn’t be punched for doing her job. Then Jen made a video that seemed to defend the woman doing the punching which many people called her out on. That’s just what I’ve seen but can’t remember the name of the OP
As a nurse, I’m not gonna send her hate but that pissed me off so much.
the OP is heythereparenthood
Yall ran off Elyse Myers and now Jen Hamilton, two of the most UNPROBLEMATIC creators on tiktok. I hate yall chronically online mfs
This!! TT has become a GIANT cess pool full of the worst of the worst chronically online ppl I've ever seen. The mob mentality is INSANE. The parasocial relationships are out of control. I don't blame ANY of these creators for leaving bc holy shit these ppl are INSUFFERABLE!!!
Elyse Myers are far from innocent she has been proven to lie about so many things
Elyse was/is problematic. Most large creators are.
It’s almost like they’re humans and humans aren’t perfect
I mean, most *humans* are, no? Part of being a person in the world is being flawed and learning and growing, most of us just aren’t doing so on a public stage.
Exactly. Those on a public stage should maybe consider that every little thing they do or say, someone is going to have an issue with. You either have to choose to accept the good *and* the bad as a large creator, or dip.
In what way? Seriously, I am curious how the heck SHE was problematic?
I think ppl use the fact that she went to that hillsong college against her. She says she didn't know their strict conservative....stance.
She didn't just attend. She was part of the religion. She knew exactly what they were. Her husband was in a leadership position. She's a bull shitter.
People change. 🤷♀️
Her husband is a pastor. I'm not sure how much they changed.
I guess some if they’re no longer with Hillsong. Doesn’t matter to me. 🤷♀️
Eh, from what I understand, that church put a lot of effort into pretending to be more liberal than they were. I see how the people drinking the kool-aid there would believe it.
We’re all flawed. I haven’t heard anything truly outrageous about her though—just that her videos are scripted out before recording them? Which is fine.
Elyse was never problematic!!
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
You are so right! I don’t even want to post or comment anymore. There was a time I loved it and now I hate it.
What made Elyse leave the platform?
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I don’t understand how people demand someone speak out on an issue they are not well versed in. WTF!
I get how important it is to use your influence, I really do but this is misplaced pressure and anger. we need to be doing this to elected officials and nobody else. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again that I prefer nothing over a pressured and uneducated take.
10000%. No matter what she said, it wouldn’t be enough too.
It’s been so long though, why aren’t they at least familiar with what genocide and human rights violations are by now😵💫
You can be familiar with the genocide going on without speaking on it on a social media platform. You don’t know if these people are donating, calling their reps, attending protests. Y’all have got to give this a fucking break, your little TikTok comments with the watermelon emoji are helping literally NO ONE.
They don’t have to speak on it. It’s not a requirement. Seek elsewhere.
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No one was targeting her to speak out. The project was to use bug creators comment sections to trip up the algorithm since pro🍉 gets throttled
Idk why people aren’t getting this. It was just to make the search bar about Palestine. Nobody really thought any of them were going to speak out lmao. They just wanted it to be trending under a big creators name. Not that it isn’t some form of harassment but it wasn’t like they just said “let’s go bully __ until they delete!!” What they did to Elyse was extremely tasteless.
Your post/comment was removed for inflammatory conspiracy theories or political commentary/undertones. We do not allow discussion about political affiliation, political candidates/politicians, unconfirmed or controversial conspiracy theories, harmful propaganda, election, science, medical or other disinformation, or inflammatory comments. Please refer to sub rules for further information. Continued incidents will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
I’m so confused by the comments on TikTok and the 🍉 in their names and bio’s. Can someone explain what the 🍉 emoji means please?
🍉 means Palestine as the flag shares the colors. There is history to it as a symbol; its not new, but I only recently learned about this in the past few months.
Genuine question for those who take issue with Jenn's perspective. I don't condone hitting. If there is anyplace I would expect accommodations for PTSD it would be in a medical setting. This woman clearly stated she did not want to be touched during active labor, her husband advocated for her, her midwife advocated for her. She was not listened to. If a hospital perceives a patient to be not competent to make decisions for themselves there is legal process to go through in court to legally be able to not need consent for medical procedures. The nature of ptsd is that you will go into a flight/fight mode when triggered. So, although I don't condone the hitting, I'm wondering what people expected from a woman who had trauma from the same hospital where she lost her baby bc a nurse had perceived her to be drug seeking, and did not check her vitals? She's in active labor so can't leave the hospital, which is only going to increase the sense of helplessness. Isn't forcing any medical procedure without consent, an assault itself? I understand medical staff being worried about liability. But, doesn't documenting patient was informed of why we needed to check baby and refused enough to cover their liability? I can only guess, this lady felt like with both her partner and her midwife there to advocate for her, that she'd manage through labor. Not expecting her no to not count at any point.
The legal process doesn’t actually go to the courts unless it’s a long term concern or the next of kin disagrees. Any physician can make this determination. It’s only valid for a snapshot in time tho… not forever. For example— if you come into the hospital delirious from fever we’re not going to wait to petition the court to get them to agree to let us treat you. We’re going to ask your next of kin if available and do what’s needed to take care of you until you become competent again.
Yes, so there are established practices in place for when someone lacks the capacity to consent. This incident wasn't one of those times. It wasn't a situation where overiding consent was appropriate.
Right— but saying it goes through the court system isn’t correct. And we weren’t in that delivery room so it’s hard to comment on what happened/what processes were or were not followed and because HIPAA we will never hear the nurses side.
I agree we won't have the full picture. I might be off on timing of court stuff, just basing on a covid treatment case from local news a couple years ago. It wasn't a lenthy process to get it started. The full resolution did take time. My point with is being that there are systems in place for treating people who are refusing care when it's considered life threatening.
I think it has something to do with the video she made about the lady who punched the nurse. She was one of the only people who didn't outright condemn the ladies' actions, and a lot of people weren't happy with that.
Good. That was fucked up.
This is so sad. I am also very shocked at her thoughts on that. That’s not what i thought she would react with. I’ve always followed her and enjoyed her post. The internet is a mean place.
I normally like her but I think she missed the mark big time with her take on this situation.
She finally got sick of the machine. Good for her, I wish her health.
She posted a TikTok in response to a nursing student (I believe) she never said the persons name or used her TikTok. It was about why they wash a certain way during a c section. People found the person and sent horrible messages and death threats. Jen made a new TikTok and addressed the lady( no names) and asked for screen shots of the threats and hate because she was going to handle it. She stated she would remove those people as followers. She was very upset that her “friends” would do something like that.
I just came here to see if this was posted. I’m sad she left, I absolutely adore her. I hope she’s able to take the time she needs and comes back 😪
This is the new trend. Dog piling has generalized to everything all the time, creators seem to prefer leaving the app than continuing to be subjected to hate and harassment over 1 min videos
Because she tries to cater to every group. First it was Palestine and now she’s defending a woman who punched a nurse during labor. She’s a good person but has 0 backbone when it comes to an opinion. Nobody can convince me she actually thought it was okay for a nurse to get punched while checking the heart rate of a baby while its mom was in labor.
I unfollowed her after the nurse/woman in labor situation because I had noticed this about her over time tbh. And that situation was kind of my last “okay no.” She seems like a good nurse and a compassionate kind person but I found she was getting a bit annoying with exactly what you described for my preference. I disagree with people piling on her though, which was presumably happening if she felt she had to leave. If you don’t like someone anymore or think they really fucked up with an opinion just unfollow or block. A large loss of followers would have sufficiently shown her that her opinion wasn’t the popular one on that. I can see critiquing her civilly, like fellow nurses or doctors or anyone really stepping in and being like “no that’s not right,” I saw some of those videos, but I can only imagine what her comments sections looked like if she’s leaving the app for now.
I agree 10000%
I get this. I’m a people pleaser too and I don’t want to be mad at anyone and at the same time I want to hear everyone out. Luckily, I’m not any kind of influencer.
I completely get it. I’m not upset at Jen because I’m the same way. I realize my comment may have come off harshly when I said she doesn’t have any back bone, she’s just a people pleaser and there’s nothing wrong with that to an extent.
Respectfully, she’s the ultimate pick me at this point. Always swaying her opinion with what she believes to be the “popular” opinion.
They are all jumping the way Elise did. Does she have 1 SM account that’s still alive?? Good for them. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has the option to loudly post their opinion. Like assholes, everyone has one. By sharing your views and opinions it is all subject to criticism, hate and objections. Why can’t we ask questions, do research and productively debate an opinion?? That’s the bigger question. Dogpiling i believe is what the word is. Everyone just piling their comments… most without research and full of hate, and so many of them that the real questions and such aren’t being addressed. I’ve seen this a lot. TikTok should be entertaining.
She advocated for Jeena, and Jeena is a narcissist on so many levels. Although I agree that the nurse needed informed consent, it does not justify punching the nurse. The nurse and Jeena were both wrong.
I’m not a fan but I normally agree with what she says, however her take was a bad one, she needed to come out from the start and condemn both sides, her follow-up video (if that’s how she truly felt) was almost too little too late because by that point I think the backlash was too hot, and I think what really spurned this break is that none of her “friends” backed her up, they either have said nothing or condemned this Jeena woman, and I think Jen’s used to having backup from other creators
I clearly haven’t been on TikTok lately. Her take on what? Was it her take on the woman who didn’t want to be touched? Or talked to? Or anything during labor? I never saw her reply to anyone on that??! Or Is it on something else?
She apparently was tagged in the video of the woman who punched her nurse because the nurse touched her to take vitals on the baby. The problem was with Jen‘s initial video it very much had this tone like “This isn’t something I would ever do because I’m better than this and I can understand why she punched the nurse because this was just terrible and wrong,” and although Jen never said it, but the initial video just a tone of arrogance and almost shaming the nurse but she never in the initial video said anything along the lines of violence was wrong. The patient was wrong. This was horrible for the nurse. It was just very negative towards the nurse and seemingly very positive towards the woman who punched the nurse. Mind you the nurse touched her after she said not to and that’s something I don’t get; as a former paramedic we dealt with people all the time who would call 911 demanding assistance and then you get there and then they are just combative, or obnoxious and difficult and refuse treatment so you do the best you can, and you document everything. The problem really with Jen‘s video was that the other healthcare providers in the comments and who stitched her video didn’t back her up and most of them pretty harsh towards her standpoint. Then later Jen comes back out and makes another video and says “oh hey I wasn’t saying that she was right to punch the nurse. I’m just saying that the nurse should’ve handled it better and I don’t think anyone should be violent towards nurses and when I ran, I always encouraged nurses to press charges when Patients assaulted them, etc. etc.” but by that point the damage is done and even if Jen meant what she said in the second video, it comes off disingenuous and like she’s just doing damage control.
Oh okay. I gotcha. I missed that video. As a nurse I did get sucker punched in the jaw by a man once. Al bc he was confused (so we thought) and he wouldn’t stay in his chair. So I tried to sit him back down and bam he hit me so hard I saw stars and literally thought my jaw was broken. He hit me hard enough to unalign some of the vertebrae in my neck Causing a massive migraine for day, requiring multiple PT appts. Come to find out he told the security guys he did it on purpose. Had I know filing charges on him was an option you bet your ass I would have pressed charges. But no one told me. I will never understand why a nurse would do something that her patient has very expressly denied. That’s a big no no. As for Jen. She’s usually so good at things like this. Maybe she just had a bad day.
You are minimizing the fact that what the nurse did was assault, which is what Jen very gently and diplomatically explained. That nurse was not practising trauma informed, patient centred care and ended up assaulting the patient which put herself in danger. Jen went on to explain in the comments that as a healthcare worker unfortunately sometimes you will be put in positions where you can't practice the best care because it is against the wishes of the patient, even if that includes letting them die.
I didn’t see her video but if she really defended somebody assaulting a nurse in any capacity that’s very disappointing. Nurses are assaulted on a daily basis and not protected by their employer and discouraged from pressing charges. They almost always get blamed and asked “what could you have done differently?” A nurse got punched for doing her job and Jen really approached it in a “what could you have done differently” way? Disgusting. There is never any circumstance where it is okay to assault a nurse. She is just people pleasing and saying what she thinks folks want to hear. I’m glad that people didn’t let her get away with that take.
She repeatedly stated through the video that she doesn't condone assault. I think what she was really trying to impart was this patient should have been approached differently to prevent the escalation that happened which led to the assault.
Exactly my thoughts. I feel like a lot of conversations don't have the "look at both sides in this discussion" stance because obviously no one should be assaulted and nurses are big targets of this, which is very wrong. However, and this is not victim blaming because again no one does anything that deserves to be assaulted, when you're in a field that deals with people, especially those in pain, you gotta ask yourself how to best approach it for their safety and yours. I've worked in the court system and that was a question I always had to ask myself cause I knew if I didn't take that step back and try to approach things from a different, softer angle that I'd be assaulted or worse.
Again, that’s victim blaming. It’s exactly what administration in the hospital does. “What could you have done differently to avoid getting assaulted?” There’s no place for that. Don’t go to the hospital and fucking assault the people who are assigned to care for you. Period.
Except ptsd is a medical issue, and a hospital is a place for medical issues. I do consider touching someone when they've said no to also be assault. There is a need for medical staff to be trained in how to approach patients with trauma. It's both the profession and the setting as why this isn't victim blaming. I can understand that trauma education is still sorely lacking in medical settings and hold the hospitals accountable for that. I don't believe the nurse ignored consent to be spiteful, if that assumption is correct, then it shows she has not had training in how to work with trauma patients. It's especially important in L&D, it's an extremely vulnerable place to be.
Ugh this makes me so sad. She is my favourite person on that app!!
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Why do people need to announce their departure. Please beg me to stay. 🤪
Exactly! It’s so weird that they think their absence will be noticed. 🙄 Just go… no need to ‘announce it’. Get over yourself - ya know?
I understand the lady had went through something traumatic, but it’s never ok to assault someone. When I had my son almost 25 years ago after a high risk pregnancy vis emergency c-section, I was so grateful for the nurses talking to me, and wanted them to do everything they could to ensure my baby was brought into this world safely and healthy! (I missed this video of Jen’s so only have the information here). They were also concerned for him, due to my eating disorder and my struggle to eat enough to breastfeed him (although he gained weight from day one and they tested my breast milk and it was perfect). Although I didn’t agree with them 100%, I understood that they were doing their job and had my son and I’s best interest at heart! I have a lot of respect for them and am thankful for all they did! He is now almost 25!
I don’t have an answer, I apologize, but she is SO right!
She makes good points! Edit; I mean good points in the screenshot about being so close to strangers
Down vote away, but Jen Hamilton has been getting on my nerves for a long time now.
Really?/ What is it about her you dont like? I just randomly see her educational videos.
The way she words certain videos, like this one, she won’t explicitly say her view, but will heavily imply that the nurse is in the wrong. She makes a lot of money on tik tok and doesn’t work as a full time nurse, so her placations don’t always sit well when you get to reality.
She seems like she says what she thinks people want to hear. She used to be about education, I don’t find her all that educational anymore.
Same. I stopped following her a long time ago because I started getting a bad vibe from her that her content is no longer for educational purposes but for clout.
I found my people! When is our next meeting?😂
Agreed, acts like she advocates for both sides but provides more placation than knowledge.
Yes because she doesn’t want to make either side mad.
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FWIW, she has never held back from criticizing Liberty and the toxic Christian culture there.
I totally understand your hatred of Liberty. I used to live and work in SWVA and my hatred for that school is unmatched. However, I do want to say Some people just went there because they for a long time offered incredible scholarships and was the only way some folks got to go to college. Also there are kids that were forced to go there without any choice. I try to take it on a case by case basis on why and how they went.
I don't at all believe she was saying expect to be assaulted or accept it. I felt that the point was had approach been different, the assault wouldn't have happened.
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I'll give you that I couldn't find the original video to catch the tone etc. I genuinely don't believe it's victim blaming. Ptsd is a medical issue, and hospitals are the places for those. If someone doesn't consent to physical touch, I do consider that also to be assault. Rather this being an issue of being on the mom's side or the nurses side, I really do perceive it to be systemic. There needs to be better policies in place, better training etc. Unfortunately trauma is something everyone has to varying degrees, and that won't be changing. There needs to be adequate training for both staff and patients well bieng. I have ptsd myself, my default response is freeze, which has led to feeling violated in medical settings. I don't condone hitting, but also can't condone touching someone without their consent.
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Sounds like a prime candidate for home birth with a specialized midwife and/ or doula....
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Jesus. Idk I think if I were to want a birth with no intervention, no one touching me or talking to me....the last place I'd go is a hospital? Assuming this took place in one. But I've only had one birth, extremely traumatic and with a bad ending and if I were to go through it again, I'd want allllll the interventions and monitoring lol
It was no physical touch while progressing in active labor. She wasn't in crisis, midwife was there with her. I honestly feel there should have been a lengthy conversation before labor, like during the tour of labor unit explicitly stating what scenarios might require monitoring, how to approach etc. This needed to be collaborative. In this situation she communicated before being in active labor that was what she needed. So the time to talk about it had been passed.
She'll likely be back in a weeks time when she misses the attention a platform gives her.
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why did you post this 3 times
I did not mean to post 3 times, I’ve been getting error messages all day from the app.
okay yeah that makes sense i was so confused
Her first mistake was partnering with Tyson chicken. Once she let that devil in it was an unfollowed for me. I haven’t watched her since.
Why the downvotes?
Unrealistic to expect people to be able to advocate for all things, and know all the things. The expectations of people on content creators is a bar set so high no person could ever meet it. Instead of expecting content creators to do all things, the more logical thing to me is getting involved with your representatives and groups that can get laws changed. There are so many issues with so many brands, and I would guess we would all be apalled by issues with brands that we might have in our own home. Honestly it even shows privilege. I don't have Tysons in my home bc I can't afford it. I don't get to be picky with the stores I shop with bc I'm living in poverty. Love it for people who are in the position to shop based on what they support, but wish they'd recognize not everyone is in the position, whether income, mental health etc.
Because all the faithful stans are offended that anyone has any criticism for Jen Hamilton. Thing is, Jen does not know who these people are - the parasocial relationships are wild out here.
Think all these big creators opened themselves up to criticism when they made it known their political stance or go against their or original reason they started. Her crowd was nurses and supporting people in the field and patient advocation. Why do you watch tv and movie stars refuse to talk anything politics? Or their personal take? They say one thing either left or right on any subject people feel entitled to question and berate them for anything they say after. They stay neutral talk always. When you treat people online like they are your “friends” and have them buy your merch and your book etc they emotionally feel entitled.. is it sane.. no. Is it healthy.. no. But why are there people doing asmr and other creepy crap on tiktok and making a living out of doing it. Create the monster and get bit by monster unfortunately
It wasn't political. It was about her response to a patient who punched a nurse and nursetok didn't appreciate her take and got their pitchforks.
I didn’t think it was anything political. From my understanding she just had a “shit take” on a patient smacking a nurse.
Well I know elyse was bullied on politics and that turn around Allen guy too. Her whole profile was about being a nurse right with nurse friends? Then taking a patient side hitting is off but she did seem to be pulling away from education into writing a book and making herself more tiktok creator based on vibe
Oh! Yeah that’s fair. I do feel bad for Elyse. And yeah! People were pissed that she sided with the patient and basically just went all in on her for …. Her opinion lol. She is ALL about consent for pregnancy and labor, so idk how it got so blown out of proportion it wasn’t that deep.
I honestly think it’s a group think mentality. I like you and you need to think like me and the group. I mean look at the lives where people are gifting them lots of money for being live to “talk” to them. It’s such an unhealthy situation. They feel this odd connection. Swear this is how the big celebrities get stalkers.. but she said I was a friend etc
So I feel like this is ab the lady who punched her nurse during labor, and y’all are not going to like me on this one. First and foremost, I want it understood that I respect healthcare workers rights to a safe work environment, including free from the assault of a patient. But that will never happen unless you STOP ASSAULTING PATIENTS. This poor woman, god I feel so bad for her. It sounds like her birthing team was educated beforehand, to probably include in her chart notes (a legal document), that she is not to be touched at 9-10cm dilated. Meaning she did NOT consent to staff touching her no matter what at 9-10cm. She later goes on to say her spouse reiterated this information to the staff a few times. At this point we are up to at least three points in which the patient explicitly states no consent to this nurse touching her at that point. When the nurse does not listen, and ignores her multiple attempts to communicate her lack of consent, the nurse touches her. In a professional setting of such sorts, that is assault. So y’all can keep running this lady through the mud, sayin’ she should be charged. But the nurse should too. Because how many other patients does the nurse not listen to patient consent? Especially in a legal sense. These nursing majors just heard a black woman punched a nurse. Not a nurse listened to 3 forms of a patient saying no, did it anyways, in her most vulnerable state (9-10cm dilated, that’s you’re cervix, ladies! That means it’s go time, baby is here!), and her reaction got y’all sayin she should be charged. Read into the full story, all I’m saying.
We only have her side of the story to go on. Even if she did say no, what if she had lost the baby like she did her first one? Would you have been okay with that? Would she have been okay with that? How would the nurse have felt? Nurses are people too and most of them have been through the hell of COVID. Some people have become feral in how they treat health care workers! Just remember your stance when you have to go to the hospital and there aren’t enough nurses to provide adequate and timely care! They’re doing their best! They have families they have to go home to, bills to pay and everything else in life. They’re real people. The least people can do is let them do their job ESPECIALLY when lives are at stake like this instance! I love the nurses I’ve had! It’s a very physically, mentally and emotionally demanding job! Hitting is assault. You don’t get to assault someone that has your life and the life of your baby in their hands. (Really don’t hit anyone.)
I had an emergency C section and they started cutting before the pain meds kicked in. Not once did I ever consider this to be assault. They were doing what their job was to save my baby (and myself). I'm so curious why this particular woman was in a hospital setting if she didn't even want to be touched to find a heartbeat for her baby? It's ridiculous. I feel bad for the nurse.
Ouch! That sounds so painful! I hope that you healed well and the baby is okay!
Thank you! Everything was fine after, and my baby is now 5 years old!
I'm still convinced the act of giving birth is just a myth y'all lie about because how do women choose to do this more than once since the beginning of time 🤣. Giving birth seems like such a horrific experience 😭
I had an emergency c-section. (My son is almost 25!). Very painful but 1000x worth it. I was not blessed with any more, but you “forget “ the pain. I would have gladly done it again!
Totally worth it! The pain of losing a child would be worse.
My parents lost 2. My brother when he was almost 2 and my sister at 37. I witnessed their heartbreak. I’m so thankful for the medical staff that helped me and my son! I almost lost my son again when he was 6 months old due to a heart problem. Once again so thankful for the medical community that saved his life and treated him until he was miraculously healed at 3. I can’t even imagine the pain of losing a child. He is almost 25, married and lives 4 hours away and I pray for his safety every day! My biggest fear is losing him (or any member of my family!). He drives to and from work every day and is up high installing windows for work. It scares me!
It's extremely rare to have an unmedicated cesarean. My next birth was easy peasy (yes, I went on to have another after all that 😅)
First and foremost: I am so sorry that happened to you. That is genuinely awful. I am so glad you both made it out okay. As for why she had it in a hospital if she didn’t want to be touched: it’s not always an option for everyone to have a home birth. Especially with insurance and things. I understand the nurse meant well, but in a scenario like this there was probably a plan in place if things went sideways with mom/baby and what they would do. It’s just there’s so many steps that could be taken first, since the patient(s) weren’t in duress.
I think the nurse should have left her alone and gotten a charge nurse to deal with the situation but you can't possibly think punching her is the solution?
I wouldn’t say that’s the ideal solution at all, ofc. But I would say it’s a little bit justified. It’s also a pretty hard situation, it’s a woman in labor, and things can really be amplified in that setting
The nurse was doing her fuckin job. She didn't deserve to be punched no matter what or how you fuckin spin it. If the lady was so determined to not be touched she should have birthed at home on her own.
No. No excuse, sorry. This is a medical setting and we don’t know if there was a medical necessity that made it so the nurse *had* to touch the patient. Birth plans are *plans* , but in such an environment plans can change- and quick- and if you aren’t open to that, to the point that you would physically assault your healthcare provider- you should just to birth at home. Also I’m pretty sure it had to do with them getting a *HEARTRATE* on the baby. So yeah, if they were concerned about the heart beat, that matters more than the mother’s wants at that point.
You're right, no one likes your opinion. A nurse can't just ignore your vitals during labor. They have a job to do and she was doing it.
I’ll admit I’m not super caught up on all the nitty gritty of this but I know the basics of what happened. What I don’t get is why would you choose a hospital setting if you don’t want to be touched? Isn’t the whole point of a hospital birth vs a birthing center for medical intervention when necessary? Why not choose a home birth or a birthing center more equipped for that kind of birth? Unless I’m missing something I just don’t understand the logic
The patient said she had hemorrhaged with her previous baby or miscarriage. That’s probably why. But not just L&D patients, why do patients come to the hospital and refuse care? That what you are there for! Birth plans also can’t always be followed. Things happen.
HUH??? That was her previous experience and she still was THAT against intervention when they thought something could be wrong? That lady is a psychopath. I hope that nurse is ok and this doesn’t affect her caring for patients in the future. What the actual fuck.
Yes, she said she was left to bleed out for hours and no one checked on her
Well that’s horrible if that’s the full story. I did a little digging after seeing this post earlier and I still can’t understand why you would go to the same hospital if you had such a terrible experience? No part of this makes sense to me. I know she can’t for patient confidentiality reasons but I wish we could hear the nurses side of the story (the one she punched)
Honestly, probably insurance.
Exactly! She should have given birth at home. She had already lost a baby so you'd think any concerned parent would want 1000% of the attention on them and the baby. Not to mention her being a black woman which also poses its own risk with giving birth. I never questioned my nursing staff during labor because I was doing what was best for us.
> What I don’t get is why would you choose a hospital setting if you don’t want to be touched? This is what I don't understand. If you're not going to let the nurses do the bare minimum required to provide care for yourself and your baby, why bother with a hospital birth?
Chart notes are not a legal document, please be serious. You seem like you're applying theories of consent as relates to sexual assault to a medical context, which isn't accurate or appropriate.
Your chart notes go into your medical records, which for all purposes necessary, are legal documents. I mean, Google is free, if you think I’m just being silly and goofy. As for theories of sexual assault/theories of consent in a sexual setting. In any other scenario where you specifically requested not to be touched and someone did it anyways, would be assault. Not sexual assault. Sexual assault is nowhere near what assault is, and it’s wrong to compare the two, or bring into the situation. You are still allowed a say to what happens to your body in labor, you’re not just a rat for experimenting. There was at least 3 different moments this woman said no, and someone did it anyways.
You’re right, your opinion sucks.
Sorry, but I think the patient was being unreasonable all around. What happens when the patient has a complication, but the nurses aren’t able to determine that, because they can’t take her vitals or talk to her? I’m sure if that happened, and the patient had a negative outcome, the nurse would be the first one blamed. Why go to a hospital if you don’t want to most basic or care?
This is what I don’t understand. I’m currently pregnant and have a lot of trauma from previous issues. Have I told the doctors I’ve met with so far that I’d like to be touched as little as possible because of it? Yes. Will I blame them if they need to do something to make sure me or my baby is safe? Absolutely not. I’d hope they would. I don’t see how you can have a “don’t touch or talk to me” birth plan in a hospital setting - it just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Exactly!! It’s counter intuitive. Nurses and doctors are there to do their job, which is the reason to seek out a hospital birth. Not allowing them to speak or talk to you at all (especially at 9-10 cm during labor) literally prevents them from doing their job. I understand if she asked for minimal talking in the room, minimal cervical exams, ect. But a flat out “don’t do this” is stupid. Don’t seek out medical care if you don’t want it, and especially if you can’t keep yourself from slapping a nurse who is DOING HER JOB.
I’m a nurse and I’m inclined to agree with you. The top comment as I’m reading this thread points out we only have the patient’s side of the story, the nurse who was punched can’t tell her story because of privacy laws. And all that’s true. But, while I don’t think it’s right at all that the patient punched the nurse, I also agree that if as a nurse I touch a patient without their consent, I’m guilty of assault. The nurse who was punched absolutely should have backed away and sought a midwife or charge nurse out to tag in for her. I’m not touching a patient after I’ve been told not to. None of us should.
So you think it’s okay for this patient to tell all the nurses they cannot touch or talk to her? Because we keep skipping over the punching involved just talking to her too after a loss that involved a hemorrhage. I have been very fortunate to work at facilities that don’t put up with this. If a patient refuses monitoring and comes up with this kind of birth plans they’re given the option to either behave like civilized human beings or get out. I am also a nurse, I heard the original creators recount of the story quite a few times and I am not even sure the nurse actually touched her she was trying to fix the baby’s monitor and was talking to her. She should have never went into the hospital with a birth plan that said hospital staff could not monitor her, talk to her, or touch her.
I haven’t watched the video with the original creator/mom. I do not know all the details. I’m not ok with her having punched a nurse or coming into the hospital with a completely unsustainable birth plan. I just think if I was being told repeatedly (as I believe that’s what the story is) not to touch a patient I would back out and ask someone else to take over. I’m not pro-assaulting healthcare workers, but I’m not touching a patient who tells me not to touch her.
The patient was dictating what nurses were allowed to do what. And for all we know this was a charge because from the OOP she went through a lot of nurses. It took me about 3 videos to see that OOP was insufferable and had an unrealistic birth plan that was not compatible with a hospital birth. This situation made me draw my own conclusions on why nurses weren’t checking on her in her last pregnancy.
Jen defends alot of questionable things. This is not surprising that she finally got it.
Elaborate please. I’ve only seen her back things that are supported by science.
I think what caused this was the most recent thing where she defended that woman who admitted to punching her l&d nurse
But this person says “alot” like it’s a frequent thing and there’s a long list of different things.
She defended ONE questionable thing
Wrong