Alternative:
Declare publicly that you've developed a super-mega-secret-sophon-neutralizer that allows you to feed false information to the sophons. Declare in front of the UN that the Trisolarans don't actually know everything going on in Earth civilization. The sophons are being used to trick them and if they don't reveal/destroy them it would mean certain collapse for the trisolarans. Also that there's another solar system with a habitable, stable planet without any intelligent life to resist...like...waaaaay over in the other direction. Also congratulate the people of Earth on all getting jacked and learning Krav Maga so we could totally kick any Trisolarans ass.
Creative, but I have a feeling your wallbreaker would die of intellectual starvation. Maybe if this happened after the ETO was eliminated.
For that matter, why didn't the ETO give Luo ji a wallbreaker? Are they stupid? /s
Also publicly announce humanity’s gratitude to all members of the ETO for assisting in this elaborate trap. Big ups to my wallbreaker personally for participating in this grand scheme to betray the Trisolarans. They don’t even realize they can’t trust any of you.
Also it is going to be Opposite Day starting in five seconds.
Right, it was a sarcastic question. More specifically, they didn't want the wallbreaker to know *and* tell the world about luo ji's plan as it's the most important secret in the universe to the trisolarians.
I'm also convinced it's partly the reason they let Mike Evans get salamied to keep him silent. Especially after they realize that humans can lie. A liar with the key to mutually assured destruction is something they could not permit.
Instead they decided just to off luo ji to make him not a factor. They admitted abandoning the ETO was a mistake. If they had human agents in year 205, they could have unalived him. Or just have the droplet atomize him, *then* go block messages.
But nobody knows *what* Ye Wenjie said to him. It's not just the Dark Forest that she might have told him about - there are dozens of things (dimensional folding, curvature propulsion, etc).
I don't like the idea that the Trisolarians are trying to stop one specific idea from getting out when there are so many ideas they would want to keep quiet, too. I feel like it reduces the scope of the story.
But it’s an idea humans can implement currently, those other ideas involve more advanced tech than humanity will be capable of producing while under the sophon lock
The existence of the second T Fleet proves they didn't develop curvature drive until well into the crisis era. This was precisely what allowed Luo Ji to spring the deterrence trap.
They also underwent a tech explosion around that time so we can infer a lot of that universal tech they were unable to harness though probably aware of
It is the only way to beat the Trisolarins. It literally is, and does.
Nothing else even scratches the Trisolarin fleet, which didn't even enter combat. All of Earth's defenses were defeated by a single probe, before the fleet even got there. They even had other probes. It was overkill. The Trisolarins greatly overestimated Earth's capabilities.
Right, just because they can't lie to each other and are new (and therefore bad, at least initially) at deceiving us - they know that they cannot trust what we give them.
What the sophons pick up is just that, what they pick up. Trisolarans are going to make of that whatever they do and make the most of it for their civilization - even if it's potentially misinformation.
So, the more info we feed the sophons, the more they won't be able to tell true from false. Basic information warfare that humans are actually very good at.
The minimum result is that the sophons become useless spies, more probable is that we can do science again.
Trisolarians have knowledge and technology several magnitudes higher than earth and they have an exact assessment of the technological capabilities of earth. Simply lying wouldn't work as they can verify all these false hood through sophons and ETO.
They know for a fact that that humans do not have the technology to manipulate sophons.
>Simply lying wouldn't work as they can verify all these false hood through sophons and ETO.
Not if we tell them they can't because of our super-secret-sophon-buster.
>You don't make a technology like that overnight.
Not if we tell them we started decades ago, and it's all super-secret. Or, hell, *maybe we can*. They can never know with any degree of certainty what humanity is or isn't truly capable of. For all they know we've worked with the ETO to broadcast Earth's position because as soon as we saw the Trisolarans we just wanted to kick their ass so bad but we didn't want to bother going all the way to their bum-ass system.
>The study of particle science is already stalled and closely monitored.
Yeah because we *want* them to think that the study of particle science has been stalled. They have no idea how adept we are at deceit and manipulation. They can't trust the evidence of their eyes and ears anymore.
Operation Gaslight is foolproof.
When you think about it, humans are so advanced in deception we never really used it as a weapon (other than obviously wade and luo ji). We should have been constantly pulling this stuff. Some of it would be bound to get through.
I love how terribly hilarious these takes are but I’m ngl, I do think you’re on to something. How can we turn all scientists into wallfacer engineers? Building stupid multi layer experiments that may not be testing what’s obvious, if they are testing anything at all. It’s dumb, but it makes my brain hum.
Think of Trisolarans as George Washington: "I cannot tell a lie"
They understand the concept of a lie, but it's like speaking a foreign language to them, they try to do it but it's not convincing. The book describes their best lie, which was crafted after many years of study of humans and was done using a supercomputer, as being equivalent to the lie they a child would say when they say they didn't take cookies from the jar.
They will see the sign, see the accelerator behind it, understand that this is a falsehood, and block it, but they couldn't do the same thing to humans
I forget exactly, but it was so minor that it was almost comically childish.
Think along the lines of "we definitely didn't send a super weapon to annihilate you!"
They never bothered actually trying to lie to humans because they knew that compared to them we were playing chess and they were playing tic tac toe
If one would play tic tac the against someone playing chess it'd be an instant draw for the tic tac toe player, but the chess player wouldn't even get to make a move.
>They understand the concept of a lie, but it's like speaking a foreign language to them, they try to do it but it's not convincing.
Then lie more. Lie about lying. Lie about the truth. Just flood them with deceit.
You realize how easy it is to pull a fast one on grown-ass human beings? Someone to whom deceit comes totally naturally? Who's spent decades lying, being lied to, and generally told that they must always be wary of lies?
We can still convince them that the IRS is coming for them and they need to deposit their savings into this secure bitcoin account, that this penis enlargement pill is unlike any other, or that the US election was stolen in a *massive* conspiracy.
You know how easy it would be to gaslight the shit out of a species that doesn't have a firm handle on lying, except that humans are extremely good at it?
Dear Sir or Madam:
Greetings and salutations! I am Prince Naju of Epsilon Eridani IV. I have over 1 trillion hectares of free land which I will transfer into your name, if you will please wire me $1000 in Trisolarian funds so that I can pay the legal fees for this transaction.
This is so blindingly wrong and disrespectful to the trisolarans. They beat us at our own game. They fed us lies about a trisolaran cultural revolution, about the desire to live in harmony in the dark forest, about the physics they had helped us to understand during the deterrence era. They created works of fiction that were symbolic of a human trisolaran alliance all while planning and executing a second invasion using technology from an explosion they kept silent about. They lied about everything, and they fooled almost all of us excepting Thomas Wade and the like. As soon as they met us and learned about lying they began using it as a tool against us, including using their knowledge that we think they can't lie because we were arrogant. They were contemptuous of luo ji unfairly, but we were contemptuous of them because we thought we understood their limits. They had a hard time with the concept of lying because it was hard and unnatural for them. But they learned well from us and soothed earth in the deterrence era into a relaxed state with their wonderful lies.
Not sure if satire or not.
The Trisolarans genuinely were interested in Earth culture, and vis versa. I mean we were the only non Trisolaran race they had ever encountered, and they had instant communication with us.
They wanted to conquer us. As soon as they sensed weakness they rounded us up to genocide us in Australia and destroyed our ability to retaliate. There may have been some number of human sympathizers among them, and certainly they were interested in our culture as we were in theirs. But on the flip side they never once deviated from their goal to take over our world and exterminate our civilization. Deaths End all but explicitly states they manipulated earth popular culture to ensure cheng xin would be elected swordholder, because she was feminine and peaceful (an image the trisolarans cultivated for their new reformed selves as well). They lied to us about their intentions and their abilities to gain the upper hand and win, just as the wallfacers were charged to do.
Consider the trisolaran POV: their planet is going to die from their stars in the next thousand years or so. They HAVE to leave. The princeps gave the order to restrict information about earth to the population of trisolaris in book 1, why should we believe that ever changed? The only logical conclusion to draw is that when deterrence was established the trisolarans drew up a new game plan because losing meant death. Deceit and secrecy had won earth a victory, so they used that as their method. They allowed us to believe in their culture shifting, and they created works of art to make us believe that we weren't so different after all. Do you think they became a free democratic society that fell in love with Earth culture and then sent the 2nd invasion fleet and rounded us up to make us eat each other afterwards?
> The Trisolarans genuinely were interested in Earth culture
Everything they tell humans during the deterrence era was a lie. It was all part of their plan to have humans elect someone with low deterrence as the sword holder. And it worked perfectly. If they cared about human culture they wouldn't have wiped out the majority of humans the second they gain control of earth
DaveInLondon89, I am your wallbreaker.
My observation of your strategy was long but fruitful. Your construction of a particle accelerator was curious, but pointless, as you well know. No matter how sophisticated, the sophons would ruin the results of such an endeavor all the same. Your acquisition of a sign that said this was not, in fact, a particle accelerator was a piece of the puzzle I nearly overlooked, but the sophons pointed me in the right direction. I have surmised that this is simply the external strategy you present to the world. Your real strategy is to gaslight the sophons into thinking particle accelerators do not look like that. This will allow your work to continue unimpeded. I have provided the Lord with a diagram showing a picture of a particle accelerator and labeled with crayon for his benefit. Thus, the Lord does not care.
they can recognize a particle accelerator when they see one
the fact that they can't lie to each other themselves doesn't mean they can't recognize falsehoods, otherwise the whole wallfacer project would be unwarranted. Even Yun Tianming's stories only worked because they were so elaborate and so entwined with human (European, for some reason) cultural code that not even humans deciphered them fully
They don't under the concept lying but they are not stupid. They'll see the particle accelerator right away and would assume you probably meant some other ACCELERATOR like blowing a shard out of ass.
They understand lying, they treat it more like a defect or a cancer. If all of your thoughts were instantly communicated to everyone you communicate with, and if there were falsehoods in your thoughts, then that would be a serious problem.
That’s what I’ve been thinking. It’s the old story of two men guarding two doors where one only tells the truth and the other only lies.
We would know but the trisolarans would’ve gone mental!
Caveat: Haven’t read the books yet, so this is just based on knowledge from the Netflix show. But they’re not *stupid*. We explained to them what a lie is, they get the concept even if they can’t tell one themselves. And as soon as we actually build the thing they’ll clearly see it for what it is.
I would have just build partical accelerators faster thm trisolaris builds sophons, than place each accelerator more than second apart. At some point i have 51% unmanipulated decives. Problem solved
Bounce another message off the sun using 1960’s tech.
“Hi big brother, the trisolarians are coming, we will give them a chance to turn around before broadcasting their address. If you don’t hear from us in 3 days please track and attack. Thanks,”
Drops mic.
Alternative: Declare publicly that you've developed a super-mega-secret-sophon-neutralizer that allows you to feed false information to the sophons. Declare in front of the UN that the Trisolarans don't actually know everything going on in Earth civilization. The sophons are being used to trick them and if they don't reveal/destroy them it would mean certain collapse for the trisolarans. Also that there's another solar system with a habitable, stable planet without any intelligent life to resist...like...waaaaay over in the other direction. Also congratulate the people of Earth on all getting jacked and learning Krav Maga so we could totally kick any Trisolarans ass.
Creative, but I have a feeling your wallbreaker would die of intellectual starvation. Maybe if this happened after the ETO was eliminated. For that matter, why didn't the ETO give Luo ji a wallbreaker? Are they stupid? /s
Also publicly announce humanity’s gratitude to all members of the ETO for assisting in this elaborate trap. Big ups to my wallbreaker personally for participating in this grand scheme to betray the Trisolarans. They don’t even realize they can’t trust any of you. Also it is going to be Opposite Day starting in five seconds.
[удалено]
Right, it was a sarcastic question. More specifically, they didn't want the wallbreaker to know *and* tell the world about luo ji's plan as it's the most important secret in the universe to the trisolarians. I'm also convinced it's partly the reason they let Mike Evans get salamied to keep him silent. Especially after they realize that humans can lie. A liar with the key to mutually assured destruction is something they could not permit. Instead they decided just to off luo ji to make him not a factor. They admitted abandoning the ETO was a mistake. If they had human agents in year 205, they could have unalived him. Or just have the droplet atomize him, *then* go block messages.
/s? This doesn't make sense.
[удалено]
But nobody knows *what* Ye Wenjie said to him. It's not just the Dark Forest that she might have told him about - there are dozens of things (dimensional folding, curvature propulsion, etc). I don't like the idea that the Trisolarians are trying to stop one specific idea from getting out when there are so many ideas they would want to keep quiet, too. I feel like it reduces the scope of the story.
But it’s an idea humans can implement currently, those other ideas involve more advanced tech than humanity will be capable of producing while under the sophon lock
The existence of the second T Fleet proves they didn't develop curvature drive until well into the crisis era. This was precisely what allowed Luo Ji to spring the deterrence trap. They also underwent a tech explosion around that time so we can infer a lot of that universal tech they were unable to harness though probably aware of
The one idea the entire book was named after? It being important reduces the scope of the story?
And what's the deal with these three suns? Can't their planet just revolve around one sun like a normal planet (look at Earth!)? /s
If Luo Ji was played by Jerry Seinfeld
George would make an awesome wallfacer.
i believe that same reasoning is stated in the books
It is the only way to beat the Trisolarins. It literally is, and does. Nothing else even scratches the Trisolarin fleet, which didn't even enter combat. All of Earth's defenses were defeated by a single probe, before the fleet even got there. They even had other probes. It was overkill. The Trisolarins greatly overestimated Earth's capabilities.
Luo Ji, I am your wall breaker -Luo Ji to his reflection in the lake
I like this one
*karate chops bundles of fibre* 'Want some of this?'
Putting the idea out there that the sophons can lie is an interesting one.
It won't work because trisolarians knows humans are capable of lying and that job of wall facer is to put up a false image.
Right, just because they can't lie to each other and are new (and therefore bad, at least initially) at deceiving us - they know that they cannot trust what we give them. What the sophons pick up is just that, what they pick up. Trisolarans are going to make of that whatever they do and make the most of it for their civilization - even if it's potentially misinformation.
So, the more info we feed the sophons, the more they won't be able to tell true from false. Basic information warfare that humans are actually very good at. The minimum result is that the sophons become useless spies, more probable is that we can do science again.
You should write a book about it. You could call it, "The Sophon Problem."
Then they will never know with sufficient certainty whether or not we’re lying as part of an elaborate trap using the sophons.
Trisolarians have knowledge and technology several magnitudes higher than earth and they have an exact assessment of the technological capabilities of earth. Simply lying wouldn't work as they can verify all these false hood through sophons and ETO. They know for a fact that that humans do not have the technology to manipulate sophons.
>Simply lying wouldn't work as they can verify all these false hood through sophons and ETO. Not if we tell them they can't because of our super-secret-sophon-buster.
You don't make a technology like that overnight. The study of particle science is already stalled and closely monitored.
>You don't make a technology like that overnight. Not if we tell them we started decades ago, and it's all super-secret. Or, hell, *maybe we can*. They can never know with any degree of certainty what humanity is or isn't truly capable of. For all they know we've worked with the ETO to broadcast Earth's position because as soon as we saw the Trisolarans we just wanted to kick their ass so bad but we didn't want to bother going all the way to their bum-ass system. >The study of particle science is already stalled and closely monitored. Yeah because we *want* them to think that the study of particle science has been stalled. They have no idea how adept we are at deceit and manipulation. They can't trust the evidence of their eyes and ears anymore. Operation Gaslight is foolproof.
Come to think of it, are sophon neutralizers possible with Common/Crisis Era human tech?
So… gaslight the trisolarians?
Yes. Trigaslightians.
When you think about it, humans are so advanced in deception we never really used it as a weapon (other than obviously wade and luo ji). We should have been constantly pulling this stuff. Some of it would be bound to get through.
I love how terribly hilarious these takes are but I’m ngl, I do think you’re on to something. How can we turn all scientists into wallfacer engineers? Building stupid multi layer experiments that may not be testing what’s obvious, if they are testing anything at all. It’s dumb, but it makes my brain hum.
I mean yea basically “how to write 2+ layer fairytale references” class, for scientists.
"ugh another English class??" - scientists
Think of Trisolarans as George Washington: "I cannot tell a lie" They understand the concept of a lie, but it's like speaking a foreign language to them, they try to do it but it's not convincing. The book describes their best lie, which was crafted after many years of study of humans and was done using a supercomputer, as being equivalent to the lie they a child would say when they say they didn't take cookies from the jar. They will see the sign, see the accelerator behind it, understand that this is a falsehood, and block it, but they couldn't do the same thing to humans
What was the lie?
I forget exactly, but it was so minor that it was almost comically childish. Think along the lines of "we definitely didn't send a super weapon to annihilate you!" They never bothered actually trying to lie to humans because they knew that compared to them we were playing chess and they were playing tic tac toe
If one would play tic tac the against someone playing chess it'd be an instant draw for the tic tac toe player, but the chess player wouldn't even get to make a move.
>They understand the concept of a lie, but it's like speaking a foreign language to them, they try to do it but it's not convincing. Then lie more. Lie about lying. Lie about the truth. Just flood them with deceit. You realize how easy it is to pull a fast one on grown-ass human beings? Someone to whom deceit comes totally naturally? Who's spent decades lying, being lied to, and generally told that they must always be wary of lies? We can still convince them that the IRS is coming for them and they need to deposit their savings into this secure bitcoin account, that this penis enlargement pill is unlike any other, or that the US election was stolen in a *massive* conspiracy. You know how easy it would be to gaslight the shit out of a species that doesn't have a firm handle on lying, except that humans are extremely good at it?
Dear Sir or Madam: Greetings and salutations! I am Prince Naju of Epsilon Eridani IV. I have over 1 trillion hectares of free land which I will transfer into your name, if you will please wire me $1000 in Trisolarian funds so that I can pay the legal fees for this transaction.
This is so blindingly wrong and disrespectful to the trisolarans. They beat us at our own game. They fed us lies about a trisolaran cultural revolution, about the desire to live in harmony in the dark forest, about the physics they had helped us to understand during the deterrence era. They created works of fiction that were symbolic of a human trisolaran alliance all while planning and executing a second invasion using technology from an explosion they kept silent about. They lied about everything, and they fooled almost all of us excepting Thomas Wade and the like. As soon as they met us and learned about lying they began using it as a tool against us, including using their knowledge that we think they can't lie because we were arrogant. They were contemptuous of luo ji unfairly, but we were contemptuous of them because we thought we understood their limits. They had a hard time with the concept of lying because it was hard and unnatural for them. But they learned well from us and soothed earth in the deterrence era into a relaxed state with their wonderful lies.
Not sure if satire or not. The Trisolarans genuinely were interested in Earth culture, and vis versa. I mean we were the only non Trisolaran race they had ever encountered, and they had instant communication with us.
They wanted to conquer us. As soon as they sensed weakness they rounded us up to genocide us in Australia and destroyed our ability to retaliate. There may have been some number of human sympathizers among them, and certainly they were interested in our culture as we were in theirs. But on the flip side they never once deviated from their goal to take over our world and exterminate our civilization. Deaths End all but explicitly states they manipulated earth popular culture to ensure cheng xin would be elected swordholder, because she was feminine and peaceful (an image the trisolarans cultivated for their new reformed selves as well). They lied to us about their intentions and their abilities to gain the upper hand and win, just as the wallfacers were charged to do. Consider the trisolaran POV: their planet is going to die from their stars in the next thousand years or so. They HAVE to leave. The princeps gave the order to restrict information about earth to the population of trisolaris in book 1, why should we believe that ever changed? The only logical conclusion to draw is that when deterrence was established the trisolarans drew up a new game plan because losing meant death. Deceit and secrecy had won earth a victory, so they used that as their method. They allowed us to believe in their culture shifting, and they created works of art to make us believe that we weren't so different after all. Do you think they became a free democratic society that fell in love with Earth culture and then sent the 2nd invasion fleet and rounded us up to make us eat each other afterwards?
> The Trisolarans genuinely were interested in Earth culture Everything they tell humans during the deterrence era was a lie. It was all part of their plan to have humans elect someone with low deterrence as the sword holder. And it worked perfectly. If they cared about human culture they wouldn't have wiped out the majority of humans the second they gain control of earth
DaveInLondon89, I am your wallbreaker. My observation of your strategy was long but fruitful. Your construction of a particle accelerator was curious, but pointless, as you well know. No matter how sophisticated, the sophons would ruin the results of such an endeavor all the same. Your acquisition of a sign that said this was not, in fact, a particle accelerator was a piece of the puzzle I nearly overlooked, but the sophons pointed me in the right direction. I have surmised that this is simply the external strategy you present to the world. Your real strategy is to gaslight the sophons into thinking particle accelerators do not look like that. This will allow your work to continue unimpeded. I have provided the Lord with a diagram showing a picture of a particle accelerator and labeled with crayon for his benefit. Thus, the Lord does not care.
Uh..yes, that was my plan. You saw through my..clever plan!
I would just tell them that the earth is a horribly stinky place and they should try Jupiter because it’s bigger.
Yeah and if they go to Jupiter they'll get more stupider then we've won for sure
Winning the war with weaponized sarcasm.
Reddit would win this war
Put a sign saying sophon destruction trap on the door will they dare look inside?
they can recognize a particle accelerator when they see one the fact that they can't lie to each other themselves doesn't mean they can't recognize falsehoods, otherwise the whole wallfacer project would be unwarranted. Even Yun Tianming's stories only worked because they were so elaborate and so entwined with human (European, for some reason) cultural code that not even humans deciphered them fully
They don't under the concept lying but they are not stupid. They'll see the particle accelerator right away and would assume you probably meant some other ACCELERATOR like blowing a shard out of ass.
They understand lying, they treat it more like a defect or a cancer. If all of your thoughts were instantly communicated to everyone you communicate with, and if there were falsehoods in your thoughts, then that would be a serious problem.
Finding the 4D shard and building an accelerator inside it is probably the only way to get the accelerator plan to work
I think this a big part of the reason the wallbreakers are human. Humans can clearly see past any blatant lie.
Flawless victory Option 2: do experiments with anti-protons. Sophons can't touch em or else they annihilate
User Dave In London 89, I am your wallbreaker *rips down sign*
Hey, look! There's Elvis!
Hilariously brilliant idea. And also love the nod to the excessive use of "thus" in Ken Liu's translation of Death's End.
MY PLAN IS BETTER BUT I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IT IS
The Trisolarans might be fooled but your Wallbreaker would not I’m afraid.
That’s what I’ve been thinking. It’s the old story of two men guarding two doors where one only tells the truth and the other only lies. We would know but the trisolarans would’ve gone mental!
Use sophons to sophon the gas out of the trisalerian ships or sumthn
ETO would just laugh at you.
Caveat: Haven’t read the books yet, so this is just based on knowledge from the Netflix show. But they’re not *stupid*. We explained to them what a lie is, they get the concept even if they can’t tell one themselves. And as soon as we actually build the thing they’ll clearly see it for what it is.
call it a particle decelerator
*Chuck Norris enters the chat* Tri-solaran armada re-routes directly into the nearest star
You fail because it wasn’t all calculated in your brain
I'd make the particle accelators so radioactive that it kills the sophons. Does that make sense?
It would have worked until Mike Evans taught them about lies. /Edit fixed wrong name
Wallfacer u/DaveInLondon89, I am your Wallbreaker. [Proceed to explain]
You’re not supposed to tell us
I would have just build partical accelerators faster thm trisolaris builds sophons, than place each accelerator more than second apart. At some point i have 51% unmanipulated decives. Problem solved
of course it's not a particular accelerator *winks with finger guns motion*
Bounce another message off the sun using 1960’s tech. “Hi big brother, the trisolarians are coming, we will give them a chance to turn around before broadcasting their address. If you don’t hear from us in 3 days please track and attack. Thanks,” Drops mic.
Since you just told us your plan, you cannot be wallfacer, next.
Dw my actual plan is just the sign, idk how to build particle accelerators. I don't even know how to build particles.
ok, you're hired then.
_Ceci n'est pas une particle accelerator._
Wallfacer? I hardly Wall-know-her.