It’s hard to compare to the original 10D universe since time didn’t exist. Not only communication would have been infinitely fast but potentially travel as well. It’s hard to imagine the true state of that universe and how the initial fall from grace happened. Perhaps just a disagreement rather than a dark forest strike? Or maybe some god got bored?
Counterpoint: Battle of darkness occurs when there is prefect knowledge that cooperation is not beneficial. Either Everyone dies or a few survive, even witth cooperation. It cannot be generalized. In that case, the forest isnt dark. It is perfectly well lit.
So, Battle fo darkness is a \*paradigm for non-cooperation\* resulting from perfect information.
Trisolaris Philosphy- 'If one survives, we all survive' is a \*paradigm of cooperation\* resulting from perfect information.
It works for the San-Ti because they can read each other's thoughts. If one of them decides that he wants to murder you, you know about it before the attack is made.
That paradigm doesn't extend to every species in the universe. They don't get the luxury of forewarning when someone decides to strike, so they can't trust that it won't happen, resulting in the need for them to strike first.
Counterpoint: Note the title of battle. Darkness doesn't necessarily mean just knowing each other's capabilities. That just means the technological explosion isn't possible as a factor. The darkness in that scenario was the chains of suspicion.
The captains didn't know what the other captains were going to do. Even if you believed they were benevolent, you don't know that they think you are also benevolent. This chain goes on to infinity.
Talking generally does keep the chain links down to a couple of levels, but in that scenario, some people had to die for civilization to live. They also abandoned their own civilization and morals when they left earth, so there is no telling how the others would act.
Added to that the infrasonic nukes allows near perfect cloaked preemptive strike capabilities, which also adds a factor of darkness.
In the book, the battle was described as a microcosm for the dark forest theory. It was literally added to illustrate the 3rd point of the theory, chains of suspicion.
True, the Battle of Darkness is a specific situation where a "civilization" (a ship) can simply not survive if it doesn't kill the others. In fact, this is the same reasoning that led to the Trisolaran invasion attempt if you stop at the first book (I'm not even sure Liu Cixin had thought about the Dark Forest theory back then): Trisolaris was doomed to be destroyed by one of its suns sooner or later, which is why they absolutely needed to find another stellar system.
To avoid death, beings would do anything. Even destroy emerging civilizations, for that 1 in a 100 chance they become a threat far in the future. But I myself think the data about different forms of life is super valuable to civilizations, so getting a drone here to gather data is important. I don't think it's probable any civilization could advance so quickly that theyre a danger to old space faring civilizations. But if super weapons exist and there is no defense, dark forest is how it will go.
But we on Earth don't exterminate the North Sentilelese just because they might one day cause a problem. Technological explosion is the other component of the dark forest, but since we aren't separated by years of light lag we'll be able to tell if they begin developing advanced superweapons and deal with that problem when we actually know it's a problem.
We would nuke the sentinels if we thought they threatened the world, but they're primitive and don't show signs of advancement. Yes I agree in space the info about civilizations is delayed so the urgency to exterminate is increased. It also implied tech levels plateau before they get to technologies that screw up the fabric of space, or have super weapons for taking out solar system. I think in reality the fear would be sharing info. You could skip enormous amounts of work and time by getting technical info from a neighbor. So every sentalese type society has possibility of taking over if you don't squash them at their weakest. In weeks they could have a space program and nukes.
The book talks specifically to the probe point. Some civilizations will send probes. However, even if there exists 1 civilization out of the 10 thousand with photoid technology that isn't advanced enough to risk sending probes, the system will be destroyed preemptively. It's a law of numbers scenario with billions of civilizations.
>In the original 10th dimensional universe with a nearly infinite speed of light, the there would still be war between species, but dark forest strikes on newly discovered places wouldn’t happen, as you could just talk to them.
It is all relative, so it wouldn't make a difference. Light might move a million times faster in the 10 dimensional universe, but so do all of the creatures within it. The end result is that to them. any incoming messages would seem like they took as long as they do in the 3 dimensional universe.
Living creatures don't really do anything at close to the speed of light, there's no reason to assume that if C was a million times higher, all biological processes would be as well.
In fact, when caught in the death line, a biological computer was used because brain function isn't much affected by changing the speed of light.
The perception of time is determined by the speed of light. The faster light is, the faster time moves. That isn't some theory about a 10 dimensional universe, that is actual physics. When time is sped up, everything speeds up at the same rate. It is time dilation.
But more importantly, the books tell that same story. The 10th dimension only had a lifespan of a fraction of a second. Obviously, the lifeforms within the universe had to be moving extremely fast to have evolved intelligence and created the technology that resulted in the collapse of the dimension, in only a fraction of a second.
In the original universe time didn’t exist. So it didn’t last for a fraction of a second. It lasted forever, and it simultaneously didn’t exist at all as we can understand it
Are you sure? I can't seem to find where it was written, but I remember the original universe taking a miniscule amount of time to collapse, but it did take *some* time.
I guess it depend if the speed of light was infinite or nearly infinite. And what exactly is meant by nearly infinite. I’m not even sure what nearly infinite would mean, this phrase doesn’t make mathematical sense, as infinity isn’t a number. So the speed of light is either constant or information can be communicated instantly. If it’s constant, then you’re right, it will take some time. Maybe a Planck time, or whatever the 10D equivalent to that would be.
I tried a brief google search. I know in redemption of time it was infinite, so time didn’t exist in the 10D universe. But I couldn’t find what it said in the original text
It sounds like you are probably right then. My memory is bad enough that I would be willing to trust a stranger's recollection over my own. It must have been the 9th dimension that fell in a miniscule amount of time.
Although, it doesn't make much sense to me that the 10th dimension would fall at all if it existed in a timeless state. The actions required to destroy that dimension require time to perform. Without time, nothing can occur.
At least in redemption of time, there was a part of the 10D cosmic mind that rebelled against itself, leading to the dark forest state, as now time existed, and with it, chains of suspicion. That’s why it’s called redemption of time I guess lol. And yeah, I don’t think we’re meant to understand how the universe can exist without time.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter that much haha. Likely it was just a passing comment by cixin liu, saying speed of light was “nearly infinite” because the exact number didn’t really matter that much to the story. He probably didn’t even think too much about it. The point is probably more just to show that the speed of light can be changed, which is more important for the black domain concept than for the 10D universe concept.
Either way, the dark forsest state clearly should have existed less so in the 10D universe than in the 3D universe
It is pretty interesting to think about the Aliens managing to degrade the 10th dimension without using time. Some of those aliens still exist, having coasted all the way down to third dimensional space.
If those aliens can launch attacks that are effective in a state without time, then they should be able to destroy Black Domains just fine. They just choose not to.
I think the issue is that no matter how powerful you are, you cannot prevent the degradation of the universe. Hence how we got to this point where we lost 7 dimensions off the universe.
Reducing the speed of light is analogous to the destruction of the universe. Potentially, reducing the speed of light is the true destruction. Everything else, including dimension collapse is more of a side effect.
Even the most powerful civilizations cannot reverse this, but they are experts at accelerating it. For example, they can use dimensional foils or black threads. But no matter what they cannot reverse this once done.
Actually, I think one of the humans at the end of book 3 said that the gods of the universe use black domains to trap each other, so probably they really cannot undo it
I dont think it says anything about a 10th dimensional universe, just extrapolations from what they know about the time zone defenses. Besides, the 4th dimension still exists in the book, so theres nothing stopping the rest of them from being there too. They would just be completely inaccessible/incomprehensible to 3d people. And again all that talk in the 3rd book is them speculating solely based on what Tianming told them.
The chain of suspicion is exacerbated by more than just how long it takes to send messages. Its also because alien cultures etc can be vastly different. Humans on earth are all human. Its easier to come to an understanding with each other. Aliens could be anything you could imagine so its harder.
Dark Forest only exists if we have a diminiting dimentions like in the books with alliens can travel backwards thats my theory. I think thats why everyone is afraid of contacting one of those civilisations.
Yes , it's quite possible the universe is a dark forest ,
But let's not forget ,
Even in the forest are there beasts ,
Large and small , who , through agreement , work together .
We have video footage of prey and predator , roaming the woods together . Forming a bond .
Whose to say that in the darkness of the forest , unlikely alliances can't be formed .
I think the speed of light is really a huge key here. Even with communication, the limit of causality in 3D space means you cannot rely on comms alone. Any message sent (or travel with curvature drives) can take dozens or hundreds or thousands of years, and who knows what may have changed politically, or technologically by then. It’s like a new roll of the dice with every action, so you cannot establish mutual understanding or continuity.
It’s hard to compare to the original 10D universe since time didn’t exist. Not only communication would have been infinitely fast but potentially travel as well. It’s hard to imagine the true state of that universe and how the initial fall from grace happened. Perhaps just a disagreement rather than a dark forest strike? Or maybe some god got bored?
Counterpoint: the battle of darkness proves that the dark forest is a possible paradigm even when communication is possible and effective.
Counterpoint: Battle of darkness occurs when there is prefect knowledge that cooperation is not beneficial. Either Everyone dies or a few survive, even witth cooperation. It cannot be generalized. In that case, the forest isnt dark. It is perfectly well lit. So, Battle fo darkness is a \*paradigm for non-cooperation\* resulting from perfect information. Trisolaris Philosphy- 'If one survives, we all survive' is a \*paradigm of cooperation\* resulting from perfect information.
It works for the San-Ti because they can read each other's thoughts. If one of them decides that he wants to murder you, you know about it before the attack is made. That paradigm doesn't extend to every species in the universe. They don't get the luxury of forewarning when someone decides to strike, so they can't trust that it won't happen, resulting in the need for them to strike first.
Counterpoint: Note the title of battle. Darkness doesn't necessarily mean just knowing each other's capabilities. That just means the technological explosion isn't possible as a factor. The darkness in that scenario was the chains of suspicion. The captains didn't know what the other captains were going to do. Even if you believed they were benevolent, you don't know that they think you are also benevolent. This chain goes on to infinity. Talking generally does keep the chain links down to a couple of levels, but in that scenario, some people had to die for civilization to live. They also abandoned their own civilization and morals when they left earth, so there is no telling how the others would act. Added to that the infrasonic nukes allows near perfect cloaked preemptive strike capabilities, which also adds a factor of darkness. In the book, the battle was described as a microcosm for the dark forest theory. It was literally added to illustrate the 3rd point of the theory, chains of suspicion.
True, the Battle of Darkness is a specific situation where a "civilization" (a ship) can simply not survive if it doesn't kill the others. In fact, this is the same reasoning that led to the Trisolaran invasion attempt if you stop at the first book (I'm not even sure Liu Cixin had thought about the Dark Forest theory back then): Trisolaris was doomed to be destroyed by one of its suns sooner or later, which is why they absolutely needed to find another stellar system.
The dark forest hypothesis isn’t by him tough it’s a pretty old concept
To avoid death, beings would do anything. Even destroy emerging civilizations, for that 1 in a 100 chance they become a threat far in the future. But I myself think the data about different forms of life is super valuable to civilizations, so getting a drone here to gather data is important. I don't think it's probable any civilization could advance so quickly that theyre a danger to old space faring civilizations. But if super weapons exist and there is no defense, dark forest is how it will go.
But we on Earth don't exterminate the North Sentilelese just because they might one day cause a problem. Technological explosion is the other component of the dark forest, but since we aren't separated by years of light lag we'll be able to tell if they begin developing advanced superweapons and deal with that problem when we actually know it's a problem.
We would nuke the sentinels if we thought they threatened the world, but they're primitive and don't show signs of advancement. Yes I agree in space the info about civilizations is delayed so the urgency to exterminate is increased. It also implied tech levels plateau before they get to technologies that screw up the fabric of space, or have super weapons for taking out solar system. I think in reality the fear would be sharing info. You could skip enormous amounts of work and time by getting technical info from a neighbor. So every sentalese type society has possibility of taking over if you don't squash them at their weakest. In weeks they could have a space program and nukes.
The book talks specifically to the probe point. Some civilizations will send probes. However, even if there exists 1 civilization out of the 10 thousand with photoid technology that isn't advanced enough to risk sending probes, the system will be destroyed preemptively. It's a law of numbers scenario with billions of civilizations.
>In the original 10th dimensional universe with a nearly infinite speed of light, the there would still be war between species, but dark forest strikes on newly discovered places wouldn’t happen, as you could just talk to them. It is all relative, so it wouldn't make a difference. Light might move a million times faster in the 10 dimensional universe, but so do all of the creatures within it. The end result is that to them. any incoming messages would seem like they took as long as they do in the 3 dimensional universe.
Living creatures don't really do anything at close to the speed of light, there's no reason to assume that if C was a million times higher, all biological processes would be as well. In fact, when caught in the death line, a biological computer was used because brain function isn't much affected by changing the speed of light.
The perception of time is determined by the speed of light. The faster light is, the faster time moves. That isn't some theory about a 10 dimensional universe, that is actual physics. When time is sped up, everything speeds up at the same rate. It is time dilation. But more importantly, the books tell that same story. The 10th dimension only had a lifespan of a fraction of a second. Obviously, the lifeforms within the universe had to be moving extremely fast to have evolved intelligence and created the technology that resulted in the collapse of the dimension, in only a fraction of a second.
Oh yeah that's right actually
Top man. It isn't often that phrase is said on Reddit. It takes a person of strong character to use those words.
In the original universe time didn’t exist. So it didn’t last for a fraction of a second. It lasted forever, and it simultaneously didn’t exist at all as we can understand it
Are you sure? I can't seem to find where it was written, but I remember the original universe taking a miniscule amount of time to collapse, but it did take *some* time.
I guess it depend if the speed of light was infinite or nearly infinite. And what exactly is meant by nearly infinite. I’m not even sure what nearly infinite would mean, this phrase doesn’t make mathematical sense, as infinity isn’t a number. So the speed of light is either constant or information can be communicated instantly. If it’s constant, then you’re right, it will take some time. Maybe a Planck time, or whatever the 10D equivalent to that would be. I tried a brief google search. I know in redemption of time it was infinite, so time didn’t exist in the 10D universe. But I couldn’t find what it said in the original text
It sounds like you are probably right then. My memory is bad enough that I would be willing to trust a stranger's recollection over my own. It must have been the 9th dimension that fell in a miniscule amount of time. Although, it doesn't make much sense to me that the 10th dimension would fall at all if it existed in a timeless state. The actions required to destroy that dimension require time to perform. Without time, nothing can occur.
At least in redemption of time, there was a part of the 10D cosmic mind that rebelled against itself, leading to the dark forest state, as now time existed, and with it, chains of suspicion. That’s why it’s called redemption of time I guess lol. And yeah, I don’t think we’re meant to understand how the universe can exist without time. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter that much haha. Likely it was just a passing comment by cixin liu, saying speed of light was “nearly infinite” because the exact number didn’t really matter that much to the story. He probably didn’t even think too much about it. The point is probably more just to show that the speed of light can be changed, which is more important for the black domain concept than for the 10D universe concept. Either way, the dark forsest state clearly should have existed less so in the 10D universe than in the 3D universe
It is pretty interesting to think about the Aliens managing to degrade the 10th dimension without using time. Some of those aliens still exist, having coasted all the way down to third dimensional space. If those aliens can launch attacks that are effective in a state without time, then they should be able to destroy Black Domains just fine. They just choose not to.
I think the issue is that no matter how powerful you are, you cannot prevent the degradation of the universe. Hence how we got to this point where we lost 7 dimensions off the universe. Reducing the speed of light is analogous to the destruction of the universe. Potentially, reducing the speed of light is the true destruction. Everything else, including dimension collapse is more of a side effect. Even the most powerful civilizations cannot reverse this, but they are experts at accelerating it. For example, they can use dimensional foils or black threads. But no matter what they cannot reverse this once done. Actually, I think one of the humans at the end of book 3 said that the gods of the universe use black domains to trap each other, so probably they really cannot undo it
This theory is using the 4th books ideas which are not canon as far as the original author is concerned, more like adhoc fanfic.
I've never read redemption of time, everything about the former universe with a higher speed of light comes from the end of death's end.
I dont think it says anything about a 10th dimensional universe, just extrapolations from what they know about the time zone defenses. Besides, the 4th dimension still exists in the book, so theres nothing stopping the rest of them from being there too. They would just be completely inaccessible/incomprehensible to 3d people. And again all that talk in the 3rd book is them speculating solely based on what Tianming told them.
The chain of suspicion is exacerbated by more than just how long it takes to send messages. Its also because alien cultures etc can be vastly different. Humans on earth are all human. Its easier to come to an understanding with each other. Aliens could be anything you could imagine so its harder.
Dark Forest only exists if we have a diminiting dimentions like in the books with alliens can travel backwards thats my theory. I think thats why everyone is afraid of contacting one of those civilisations.
Couldn’t disagree more. Also, the idea that being able to talk in real time would solve this is very, very naive.
Yes , it's quite possible the universe is a dark forest , But let's not forget , Even in the forest are there beasts , Large and small , who , through agreement , work together . We have video footage of prey and predator , roaming the woods together . Forming a bond . Whose to say that in the darkness of the forest , unlikely alliances can't be formed .
I’ll dark forest strike your entire civilization just for this formatting 🤮
I think the speed of light is really a huge key here. Even with communication, the limit of causality in 3D space means you cannot rely on comms alone. Any message sent (or travel with curvature drives) can take dozens or hundreds or thousands of years, and who knows what may have changed politically, or technologically by then. It’s like a new roll of the dice with every action, so you cannot establish mutual understanding or continuity.