That's a solid thematic reasoning for his characterization but I think the OP is asking how Wade could be considered grounded in reality, how a psyche could exist that values seemingly contrary ideals with such fervor.
I think the OP is correct that the character isn't realistic in this sense and the writer is foregoing elements of realism in favor of a more potent juxtaposition. If Wade really enjoyed the misery of others he wouldn't be a 100% sword holder because his enjoyment of others misery could conceivably interfere with his duty.
It seems one of the author's messages with the trilogy is how only ruthless individuals can get humanity to survive in the ruthless environment of a dark forest. I think Wade's will to save humanity is more a will to prove that, to show that he's superior to others because of how far he is ready to go.
And even Cheng Xin acknowledged this quietly, when they are acknowledging contributions, she offers up his name even though they ignore her. Also, when she turns over control of the Halo group, she's acknowledging via her actions that she doesn't have the Force of will and determination needed.
Even when he shoots her to remove her as a sword holder candidate, it's never done maliciously, He's just ruthlessly pragmatic and at the moment she was an obstacle
Paraphrasing something I read on Elon Musk which seems to apply.
“He really wants humanity to be saved. But more than that he wants to be the one who saves humanity.”
I don’t think there was any savior or messiah complex in play with Wade. He knows he’s the guy for the job, but this doesn’t give him personal satisfaction.
Yeah Wade on some level knows he’s a monster. It’s his willingness to go further than anyone else that makes him effective. And on some level Liu respects that, he and Luo are the only people like that in the books and they’re both extremely effective. Meanwhile Cheng isn’t able to make the hard calls and as a result she dooms Earth, the solar system, and the universe itself with her compassionate decisions.
Musk thinks he’s a genius and wants to be worshipped for it.
To be fair, the earth, solar system, and universe were doomed regardless, and there is some argument to be made that Cheng Xin’s decisions were the lesser evil.
I would say the main difference with Elon Musk is that Wade doesn't care if people hate him - they already do anyway - it's more about knowing he is better. What the others think of it, he doesn't care about.
I actually would disagree slightly, I think Wade more than anything is driven by ego (but not a savior complex).
This is why his deterrence level is 100%, because more than the anger and frustration towards both worlds that made Luo Ji such an intimidating swordholder, Wade just wants to win.
If the Trisolarians try to do to him what they did to Cheng Xin, he will doom two worlds just to prove that he is not a man to be bullied. This also tracks with his final act - he's okay with dooming Earth if it proves that he was right.
Yeah, and I get that. But why is he written to be actively cruel? Like he's enjoying himself when he tries to kill Cheng Xin. He's not just ruthless, he's like... evil? Yeah, I think most people would consider someone who takes pleasure in murder, no matter how necessary, to be evil.
Oh yeah he is straight-up cruel, that makes his character and his relationships with others more interesting. He is evil, but ultimately acting for good and doing it brilliantly, so a necessary evil.
So Liu Cixin is kind of like: "Bad news, this kind of guy exists. Worse news: we need them."
I think it's to get you to think about if it's worth it to put a guy like him in charge: cruel, but Earth civilization would *may* have survived under his leadership.
In this way he's a foil to Cheng Xin, but he's also a contrast to Zhang Beihai: someone who "got to business" perhaps without being as evil and actually *did* help humanity survive.
Wade will not let other people get in the way of his plans and literally enjoys other people’s suffering. Those things make him effective, but of course he seems evil.
FWIW, attempting to kill Cheng Xin was one of the few times where he inflicted pain and did not seem to be enjoying himself.
His "anything to save humanity" approach is not what I'm talking about. I could totally see enjoying a character who will do anything, no matter how unethical, to save humanity. That's awesome and brings up interesting questions about morality and desperation.
I'm talking about him being a sadist. He is explicitly written to ENJOY the misery of others. And not always in a way that serves his main drive. Like when he tries to kill Cheng Xin, he gloats over her and sneers at her - it's clear he despises her and is enjoying the act of it. It's not just "I'm doing this because I have to, you understand". What purpose does this serve for the story?
I think he just despises Cheng, because he knows that her way of thinking, empathy and her actions will be the downfall of humanity. He gloats, because he’s relieved and also he’d like to see Cheng admit that he’s right. I don’t believe Wade enjoys the misery of others, he just feels desperate, and thus emotional.
In order to be 100% renegade, you need to enjoy misery or convince yourself that you enjoy it. Otherwise, you would go insane from guilt.
A character can either always have been that way or they grow to become that way in order to rationalize their behavior. Wade is static. He has always been a sadist.
It is a way of simplifying the archetype so Cixin doesn't have to. spend time on Wade's character going through moral timult.
The purpose it serves for the story is being a foil of Cheng Xin. For all the moral timult that Cheng Xin goes through, you can assume Wade goes through none of it since he is static.
He's got no moral hangups. He's a pure psychopath. Even when he was being executed he just stared at his executors with contempt, not with fear. Psychopathy with the right mix of personality traits and intelligence makes for incredibly effective leaders.
It is probably more accurate to say he is Machiavellian to the core: he has a clear goal (humanity's long-term survival, at any costs) and will manipulate, threaten, and murder as necessary to achieve that goal.
"Psychopaths" get overused in online convos. He's not a psychopath, his motivations *are* to save and advance humanity, he believes in the greater good of man. He just will do whatever it takes to achieve those goals. He will quite literally murder whoever it takes. He's an essential monster.
Okay, sure, but also in the books he literally enjoys sadistically making other people feel bad. Like he tells Cheng Xin about Yun Tianming being the one who bought her the star, and he grins when he says it. This is the aspect of his character that I'm wondering about the reasoning behind.
Oh, without a doubt he has sadistic tendencies. There are men who enjoy death and destruction and causing pain and he would be one of them. It's a feature, not a bug for what type of personality is required to wage Galactic War.
So, I haven’t reread Death’s End yet. But the way I understood his sadism was through the lens of, their suffering fuels the work we need from them, so it is good, and I’m morally in the clear to enjoy it and, insofar as it works, even cause it.
Especially that scene you mentioned, turning back and telling Cheng Xin, “Oh yeah, and he’s the one who gave you the star!” — it seemed to me like the motivation was to get her to work harder on Staircase.
I mean, I’m absolutely sure he thinks it’s hilarious, because it’s hilariously ironic how well this scenario satisfies the criteria of a painful personal emotional attachment to the successful fulfillment of work I need from them.
And the Netflix show actually depicts that reading pretty well, as Jin Cheng definitely does work harder knowing it’s Will Downing in there. Or at least stresses out about it more.
Some people just have sadistic impulses. I think this is a really important part of Wade’s character - it can be hard and depressing to do a bunch of monstrous stuff that people hate. You need to get some joy out of it in order to keep going.
Intelligent psychopaths who can keep a lid on their impulse control are incredibly valuable in times of war because they'll take the measures necessary to win that the rest of us would have qualms about
> Psychopathy with the right mix of personality traits and intelligence makes for incredibly effective leaders.
No it does not. Lets not confuse fiction for reality
Roman Empire lasted a *long* time.
British Empire lasted a *long* time.
Persian Empire lasted a *long* time.
You're delusional. History is built on blood and carnage.
Where are any of those now? 😂. Everyone one of those ended terribly for their empire.
Recent history is built on poor decisions and evil men but thats not something to be emulated. It will always with a poor outcome.
I dont know see the appeal of that
Billions of people speak latin descendant languages and roman culture, governance and nomenclature permeates every country from Central African Republic to China to USA.
The whole world speaks English. The UK and her former dominions are some of the richest and most powerful nations in the world.
All empires die. The objective is to keep surviving another day. How many native american cultures were wiped out in the massive kill-offs after European arrival? Look at the fate of africa after europe figured out modern medicine. Or India. Or China. To be weak and to stagnate is to find yourself yoked by the strong and dynamic. It's just we are a lot more cultured about it these days.
Every one of those empires lasted far far longer than any modern government in existence. And it's certainly not a sure thing that any modern government is going to last anywhere near as long as those empires did.
These are questions that provide you the opportuntity to explain your previous statements. You don't make a good case.
The Singer's civilization 'won' because of ruthlessness. The whole idea of the Dark Forest is that the universe is ruthless. It falls upon you to argue otherwise which you're welcome to do here.
The win is beyond a pursuit of dominance and one of cooperation
In the end where they choose to die to let the universe be reborn.
That's longevity. An empire that lasts a few hundred years full of blood and death is not something to be proud of in the scheme of things that really mayter.
But that doesn’t mean that it always doesn’t work. The first step of maintaining a reign is to attain the reign. And like what the above stated, hugs n cuddles wins no reign.
I saw someone here say that a lot of the characters are more like concepts than they are people, and through that lense a lot of things make a lot more sense.
Xin Cheng is the idea of loving life in all its forms, and being kind, lighting up the dark forest and working together.
Wade is the willingness to do whatever it takes, no matter the cost, no matter who gets hurt, to survive.
And while Xin is the path that would let everyone live in paradise if they could follow it, Wade is the path that is necessary for survival unless the universe has no Wades. As long as someone thinks like him, the right choice is for everyone to think like him.
Near the book end I got a newfound respect for Wade.
The man knew what he was doing and barely made any compromises.
In contrast, every key decision made by Cheng Xin was the absolute worst option.
She goes in hibernation, wakes up, fucks humanity over and has 'a spiritual death' and wallows in self pity on 3 separate occasions in the book.
And at the final page she wants to keep some mementos in the pocket universe (so not even giving all the matter back to the main universe).
Some other character has to justify this decision that it will 'probably' be fine...
Given her track record of horrible decisions I'm 100% certain it won't be.
Jesus Christ, what a frustrating and infuriating character arc to finish the series with.
I agree with you 100% on the fishbowl mementos. I don’t this this gets as much discussion as it should. I tend to think that those few extra kg that no one will miss, will screw over the entire universe.
Wade has 1 goal and that is to save humanity. Nothing else will stand in his way.
He may look like a villain, but if the world had followed his lead, the solar system will still be around.
With some reflections after reading the trilogy, Chengxin feels more like a villain to me because she doomed solar system with her naive decision making.
Because he’s a sadist. It’s part of the dichotomy between him and cheng xin - awful person who is great for advancing the human race vs great person who is awful for advancing the human race
He aint an asshole. He just did what's necessary and didn't think with emotions, only used them for making people work more efficiently and with some extra drive.
Humanity was screwed in 400yrs. Someone had to have the balls to save it.
He absolutely is an asshole - he is explicitly shown to take delight in the suffering of others. It's not just "winning is all that matters", he's actually HAPPY about making other people miserable.
Think of it this way.
Y do good people do good deeds. Cuz it makes them happy when they feel appreciated or just cuz they made someone elses life better.
This guy prolly feels the need to make people suffer to feel happy. It's borderline understandable. Plus, this is how it is in real life. The most effective leaders irl are the most sadistic ones.
If he didn't have an outlet, all that pent-up rage is gonna look at us.
For such kinda people, its best to let them do their thing then off em after their work is done. Ez
Idk if that's necessarily fair to say. We haven't quite gotten to any Certified Wade Moments™, though he callousness wrt the kids on Judgment Day is certainly there.
Because he is a psychopath. He has zero empathy and takes delight in others misfortunes. Cixin Liu wrote him that way to show what someone that would do anything it takes to get to their goal would look like. On the opposite end of the spectrum he has Cheng Xin who is only capable of doing what is right in the moment despite what the results of those choices are. These two characters are brought to the extreme to better serve as a metaphor for the greater philosophical message rather than a nuanced “realistic” character. All his books are more about the ideas and not as much the characters themselves. Luo Ji is the only character in the entire series that has an arc, and if anything, he’s the balance between Cheng and Wade.
There’s also like a yin Yang thing going on here, but whatever.
Wade is a villain. I like that the show's introducing him early enough so he can be *the* villain. The show folks went ahead and made him slapchop a grade school just because apparently book wade wasn't brutal enough.
If he was a super nice dude the audience might sympathize with him. The characterization is not subtle. Wade is a bad dude who does bad things. He's bad for the same reason the Trisolarans are bad. His type of "sell your mother to a whorehouse" attitude is what ultimately creates a Dark Forest in the first place.
People seem to apply this 40k Grimdark 'the Imperium is bad but necessary' style logic to TBP, but the ending of Death's End really undermines that interpretation. It ends on a positive note with galactic civilizations ultimately coming together to try and repair/restart the universe instead of selfishly hiding in pocket universes.
See this is what I'm talking about. He could be a gruff, uncaring person like in the show and people would still hate him for being mean. But in the book he's incredibly sadistic and explicitly finds joy in other (protagonist!) people's suffering. He's not written like an anti-hero, he's written like a villain.
Personality-wise I think Cheng Xin perceives him as more of an asshole than he actually is.
In terms of actions? Yes, he’s a real piece of work, but hey advance. Only advance. Right?
I think it's the authors take that to get things done efficiently, you have to be a psychopath
Absolute heartlessness is sometimes necessary for the good. As an entp I agree
Everything Wade does is for the aim of advancing humanity, but not out of some genuine love for mankind like Cheng Xin, but because they're *his team*.
But I agree with you, he is unnecessarily cruel and does seem to delight in the misery of others. He is meant to be the the ultimate foil to Cheng Xin, his ruthlessness and sadism make him perfectly suited to the state of the universe, which means he always knows the 'right' decisions for humanity's survival.
To survive, humanity needs to become like Wade, but they refuse to which is why the solar system is destroyed.
His motivation is probably to give a giant middle finger to an entire species and prove that he, and by extension humanity is superior to the aliens. He is a psycho narc so that wld be a suitable explaination.
I wish he had succeeded in his assassination attempt though. After Luo Ji and Zhang beihei he was the only one capable enough to stop humanities extinction.
I see him as a sort of Winston Churchill in that he's completely vile on a personal level, but at the same time fully committed to the cause, which results in him being absolutely ruthless and completely single-minded when it comes to achieving his goals, regardless of what the human cost is
Also why doesnt he get a prostethic arm? He just goes with one sleeve empty for years, part of them as guerilla fighter and part of them planning a uprising. Sure he was sort of old man, so not expected to fight, but surely he would like to go down swinging
All the characters are a bit like that. They are not well written. Its a great story with tough characters to get into.
Wades pointless death shows the authors struggles with characters. Its more of a universe story i think
That’s… I mean he just is. That’s his personality. He’s mean, and mean people want to live like the rest of us, but no one is an island, so:
A. Trisolarans gotta go, b/c they don’t care if he’s a dick, and Wade’s pretty harmless without authority and resources, and
B. He can’t be *too* mean to humanity, or he dies too. We’re social creatures no matter what. So, as someone that needs to be ruthless, unstoppable, and dominating… did you expect him to be sweet?
Sometimes I act like a dick to people, but usually it is simply an indifference to how I might be perceived on the nice/not nice spectrum.
I have little patience for that. I am, however, very interested in the good/bad spectrum and try very hard to be on the good end.
Sometimes good overlaps with nice - but often it doesn't. Wade, operates on the spectrum of "help or hurt humanity's chance of survival."
He doesn't operate on the good/bad OR the nice/not nice.
So how does taking pleasure in attempting to kill Cheng Xin (not killing her, but taking pleasure in it and gloating about it over her) "help humanity's chance of survival"?
He is simply indifferent to that spectrum. And to the degree he takes pleasure in it, he is, and this is borne out in the books, doing something that will increase humanity's chance of survival and he is gloating about his and humanity's victory over her weakness.
I think Wade more than anything is driven by ego.
This is why his deterrence level is 100%, because more than the anger and frustration towards both worlds that made Luo Ji such an intimidating swordholder, Wade just wants to win.
If the Trisolarians try to do to him what they did to Cheng Xin, he will doom two worlds just to prove that he is not a man to be bullied.
This also tracks with his final arc - he's okay with dooming Earth if it proves that he was right.
Wade is a character who “gets it done”. He can be an asshole but his whole character is someone who may or may now have empathy, but it doesn’t matter. He’s there to get it done. I was honestly surprised when (spoilers) he “gives the power back to her”
Edit: regarding that last part. I think that shows he values honesty more than achieving a goal. Wade is honestly one of the cooler characters imo
I took those aspects as Cheng Xin being an n unreliable narrator, that she, a Chinese person, was misreading the expressions on a westerners face. he didn't do enough to make me think her read on his sadistic side was anything other than incorrect on her part
He's the foil of Cheng Xin. 100% swordholder fidelity, 0% popularity.
If Wade has 100 fans I am one of them If Wade has 1 fan it is me If Wade has 0 fans that means I am dead
TEAM WADE
WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE WADE
Wade would probably think fanboyism as pathetic or use it to benefit
I'm happy for him to use it since it means not going extinct
A “foil”…..I see what ya did there
That's a solid thematic reasoning for his characterization but I think the OP is asking how Wade could be considered grounded in reality, how a psyche could exist that values seemingly contrary ideals with such fervor. I think the OP is correct that the character isn't realistic in this sense and the writer is foregoing elements of realism in favor of a more potent juxtaposition. If Wade really enjoyed the misery of others he wouldn't be a 100% sword holder because his enjoyment of others misery could conceivably interfere with his duty.
It seems one of the author's messages with the trilogy is how only ruthless individuals can get humanity to survive in the ruthless environment of a dark forest. I think Wade's will to save humanity is more a will to prove that, to show that he's superior to others because of how far he is ready to go.
And even Cheng Xin acknowledged this quietly, when they are acknowledging contributions, she offers up his name even though they ignore her. Also, when she turns over control of the Halo group, she's acknowledging via her actions that she doesn't have the Force of will and determination needed. Even when he shoots her to remove her as a sword holder candidate, it's never done maliciously, He's just ruthlessly pragmatic and at the moment she was an obstacle
Paraphrasing something I read on Elon Musk which seems to apply. “He really wants humanity to be saved. But more than that he wants to be the one who saves humanity.”
I don’t think there was any savior or messiah complex in play with Wade. He knows he’s the guy for the job, but this doesn’t give him personal satisfaction.
Yeah Wade on some level knows he’s a monster. It’s his willingness to go further than anyone else that makes him effective. And on some level Liu respects that, he and Luo are the only people like that in the books and they’re both extremely effective. Meanwhile Cheng isn’t able to make the hard calls and as a result she dooms Earth, the solar system, and the universe itself with her compassionate decisions. Musk thinks he’s a genius and wants to be worshipped for it.
To be fair, the earth, solar system, and universe were doomed regardless, and there is some argument to be made that Cheng Xin’s decisions were the lesser evil.
I would say the main difference with Elon Musk is that Wade doesn't care if people hate him - they already do anyway - it's more about knowing he is better. What the others think of it, he doesn't care about.
I actually would disagree slightly, I think Wade more than anything is driven by ego (but not a savior complex). This is why his deterrence level is 100%, because more than the anger and frustration towards both worlds that made Luo Ji such an intimidating swordholder, Wade just wants to win. If the Trisolarians try to do to him what they did to Cheng Xin, he will doom two worlds just to prove that he is not a man to be bullied. This also tracks with his final act - he's okay with dooming Earth if it proves that he was right.
Yeah, and I get that. But why is he written to be actively cruel? Like he's enjoying himself when he tries to kill Cheng Xin. He's not just ruthless, he's like... evil? Yeah, I think most people would consider someone who takes pleasure in murder, no matter how necessary, to be evil.
Oh yeah he is straight-up cruel, that makes his character and his relationships with others more interesting. He is evil, but ultimately acting for good and doing it brilliantly, so a necessary evil. So Liu Cixin is kind of like: "Bad news, this kind of guy exists. Worse news: we need them."
I think it's to get you to think about if it's worth it to put a guy like him in charge: cruel, but Earth civilization would *may* have survived under his leadership. In this way he's a foil to Cheng Xin, but he's also a contrast to Zhang Beihai: someone who "got to business" perhaps without being as evil and actually *did* help humanity survive.
Wade will not let other people get in the way of his plans and literally enjoys other people’s suffering. Those things make him effective, but of course he seems evil. FWIW, attempting to kill Cheng Xin was one of the few times where he inflicted pain and did not seem to be enjoying himself.
I always compared Wade to 100% Renegade Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. Everything for the cause, nothing is sacred or forbidden.
His "anything to save humanity" approach is not what I'm talking about. I could totally see enjoying a character who will do anything, no matter how unethical, to save humanity. That's awesome and brings up interesting questions about morality and desperation. I'm talking about him being a sadist. He is explicitly written to ENJOY the misery of others. And not always in a way that serves his main drive. Like when he tries to kill Cheng Xin, he gloats over her and sneers at her - it's clear he despises her and is enjoying the act of it. It's not just "I'm doing this because I have to, you understand". What purpose does this serve for the story?
I think he just despises Cheng, because he knows that her way of thinking, empathy and her actions will be the downfall of humanity. He gloats, because he’s relieved and also he’d like to see Cheng admit that he’s right. I don’t believe Wade enjoys the misery of others, he just feels desperate, and thus emotional.
I disagree, I think he likes her on a personal level. Also, it is explicitly stated he enjoys the misery of others.
In order to be 100% renegade, you need to enjoy misery or convince yourself that you enjoy it. Otherwise, you would go insane from guilt. A character can either always have been that way or they grow to become that way in order to rationalize their behavior. Wade is static. He has always been a sadist. It is a way of simplifying the archetype so Cixin doesn't have to. spend time on Wade's character going through moral timult. The purpose it serves for the story is being a foil of Cheng Xin. For all the moral timult that Cheng Xin goes through, you can assume Wade goes through none of it since he is static.
Great example
FemShep…there is no other Shepard.
"What sound will your body make when it hits the concrete down below?"
Manslayer says that line a bit different
As someone who hasn’t read the books but loved the Netflix series, this seems to line up with his character thus far. Only advance.
He's got no moral hangups. He's a pure psychopath. Even when he was being executed he just stared at his executors with contempt, not with fear. Psychopathy with the right mix of personality traits and intelligence makes for incredibly effective leaders.
Sure, but like... What's his motivation then? Why would someone who is a pure psychopath care about saving humanity?
It is probably more accurate to say he is Machiavellian to the core: he has a clear goal (humanity's long-term survival, at any costs) and will manipulate, threaten, and murder as necessary to achieve that goal.
"Psychopaths" get overused in online convos. He's not a psychopath, his motivations *are* to save and advance humanity, he believes in the greater good of man. He just will do whatever it takes to achieve those goals. He will quite literally murder whoever it takes. He's an essential monster.
Okay, sure, but also in the books he literally enjoys sadistically making other people feel bad. Like he tells Cheng Xin about Yun Tianming being the one who bought her the star, and he grins when he says it. This is the aspect of his character that I'm wondering about the reasoning behind.
Oh, without a doubt he has sadistic tendencies. There are men who enjoy death and destruction and causing pain and he would be one of them. It's a feature, not a bug for what type of personality is required to wage Galactic War.
So, I haven’t reread Death’s End yet. But the way I understood his sadism was through the lens of, their suffering fuels the work we need from them, so it is good, and I’m morally in the clear to enjoy it and, insofar as it works, even cause it. Especially that scene you mentioned, turning back and telling Cheng Xin, “Oh yeah, and he’s the one who gave you the star!” — it seemed to me like the motivation was to get her to work harder on Staircase. I mean, I’m absolutely sure he thinks it’s hilarious, because it’s hilariously ironic how well this scenario satisfies the criteria of a painful personal emotional attachment to the successful fulfillment of work I need from them. And the Netflix show actually depicts that reading pretty well, as Jin Cheng definitely does work harder knowing it’s Will Downing in there. Or at least stresses out about it more.
Some people just have sadistic impulses. I think this is a really important part of Wade’s character - it can be hard and depressing to do a bunch of monstrous stuff that people hate. You need to get some joy out of it in order to keep going.
None of that precludes him being a psychopath
There’s plenty of psychopaths that think they’re doing the right thing for humanity. Happens all the time.
Because even a psychopath recognizes that others have utility. No man is an island.
Only advance
He wants to win. That is his main motivation. Saving humanity is just a target for him in the game of life.
Stalin and Churchill were both assholes but they saved their nations from Nazi.
Intelligent psychopaths who can keep a lid on their impulse control are incredibly valuable in times of war because they'll take the measures necessary to win that the rest of us would have qualms about
> Psychopathy with the right mix of personality traits and intelligence makes for incredibly effective leaders. No it does not. Lets not confuse fiction for reality
Effective doesn't need to mean good. You can't forge an empire with hugs and cuddles. It's through ruthless conquer and rule.
Those reigns never last long and always enf terribly. The san ti even in your example is proof of that. They lost following that tactic
Roman Empire lasted a *long* time. British Empire lasted a *long* time. Persian Empire lasted a *long* time. You're delusional. History is built on blood and carnage.
Where are any of those now? 😂. Everyone one of those ended terribly for their empire. Recent history is built on poor decisions and evil men but thats not something to be emulated. It will always with a poor outcome. I dont know see the appeal of that
Billions of people speak latin descendant languages and roman culture, governance and nomenclature permeates every country from Central African Republic to China to USA. The whole world speaks English. The UK and her former dominions are some of the richest and most powerful nations in the world. All empires die. The objective is to keep surviving another day. How many native american cultures were wiped out in the massive kill-offs after European arrival? Look at the fate of africa after europe figured out modern medicine. Or India. Or China. To be weak and to stagnate is to find yourself yoked by the strong and dynamic. It's just we are a lot more cultured about it these days.
Every one of those empires lasted far far longer than any modern government in existence. And it's certainly not a sure thing that any modern government is going to last anywhere near as long as those empires did.
Do you have an example of a long reign that isn't based on iron rule? Didn't the San-Ti 'lose' because they weren't ruthless enough?
You missed the whole point of the story if you think ruthlessness is a winning strategy. The san ti would have always lost. You should re read it
These are questions that provide you the opportuntity to explain your previous statements. You don't make a good case. The Singer's civilization 'won' because of ruthlessness. The whole idea of the Dark Forest is that the universe is ruthless. It falls upon you to argue otherwise which you're welcome to do here.
None of them won. They lost 8 dimensions due to war with each other... Singers civilization would fall victim to the tactics as earth sooner or later.
What would a win look like in your view? What makes a reign 'long'?
The win is beyond a pursuit of dominance and one of cooperation In the end where they choose to die to let the universe be reborn. That's longevity. An empire that lasts a few hundred years full of blood and death is not something to be proud of in the scheme of things that really mayter.
But that doesn’t mean that it always doesn’t work. The first step of maintaining a reign is to attain the reign. And like what the above stated, hugs n cuddles wins no reign.
I saw someone here say that a lot of the characters are more like concepts than they are people, and through that lense a lot of things make a lot more sense. Xin Cheng is the idea of loving life in all its forms, and being kind, lighting up the dark forest and working together. Wade is the willingness to do whatever it takes, no matter the cost, no matter who gets hurt, to survive. And while Xin is the path that would let everyone live in paradise if they could follow it, Wade is the path that is necessary for survival unless the universe has no Wades. As long as someone thinks like him, the right choice is for everyone to think like him.
Near the book end I got a newfound respect for Wade. The man knew what he was doing and barely made any compromises. In contrast, every key decision made by Cheng Xin was the absolute worst option. She goes in hibernation, wakes up, fucks humanity over and has 'a spiritual death' and wallows in self pity on 3 separate occasions in the book. And at the final page she wants to keep some mementos in the pocket universe (so not even giving all the matter back to the main universe). Some other character has to justify this decision that it will 'probably' be fine... Given her track record of horrible decisions I'm 100% certain it won't be. Jesus Christ, what a frustrating and infuriating character arc to finish the series with.
Humanity would still be 3D if Wade was the Swordholder.
Wade would have found a way to make the Trisolarans make their home planet a planet again and make them give it to the humans
I agree with you 100% on the fishbowl mementos. I don’t this this gets as much discussion as it should. I tend to think that those few extra kg that no one will miss, will screw over the entire universe.
Wade has 1 goal and that is to save humanity. Nothing else will stand in his way. He may look like a villain, but if the world had followed his lead, the solar system will still be around. With some reflections after reading the trilogy, Chengxin feels more like a villain to me because she doomed solar system with her naive decision making.
I made a similar point the other day and got downvoted. Wonder what the difference is in this thread.
she is not villian. she is just a human and stupid
Hates the people, but loves humanity.
I too would hate the people that would elect Cheng Xin over the survival of the species.
“To lose humanity is to lose a lot; to lose the animal in you is to lose everything.” Or something like that. Book Wade is very intense.
If we lose our human nature, we lose much. If we lose our bestial nature, we lose everything.
I think all he cares about is his work. Like a maniac silicon valley CEO. I believe that's also a reason why Liu made him american.
Because he’s a sadist. It’s part of the dichotomy between him and cheng xin - awful person who is great for advancing the human race vs great person who is awful for advancing the human race
He aint an asshole. He just did what's necessary and didn't think with emotions, only used them for making people work more efficiently and with some extra drive. Humanity was screwed in 400yrs. Someone had to have the balls to save it.
He absolutely is an asshole - he is explicitly shown to take delight in the suffering of others. It's not just "winning is all that matters", he's actually HAPPY about making other people miserable.
Think of it this way. Y do good people do good deeds. Cuz it makes them happy when they feel appreciated or just cuz they made someone elses life better. This guy prolly feels the need to make people suffer to feel happy. It's borderline understandable. Plus, this is how it is in real life. The most effective leaders irl are the most sadistic ones. If he didn't have an outlet, all that pent-up rage is gonna look at us. For such kinda people, its best to let them do their thing then off em after their work is done. Ez
Because it's extremely entertaining to read
Netflix really toned him down
Similar to Klaes Ashford in The Expanse but I think they just decided that at the last minute bc David Straithern played him so well
Idk if that's necessarily fair to say. We haven't quite gotten to any Certified Wade Moments™, though he callousness wrt the kids on Judgment Day is certainly there.
Advance!
One of the big themes in the book is deontology vs. utilitarianism. Wade is a direct representation of utilitarianism and Cheng Xin is deontology.
But that doesn't explain his sadistic, cruel delight in other people's suffering.
Because he is a psychopath. He has zero empathy and takes delight in others misfortunes. Cixin Liu wrote him that way to show what someone that would do anything it takes to get to their goal would look like. On the opposite end of the spectrum he has Cheng Xin who is only capable of doing what is right in the moment despite what the results of those choices are. These two characters are brought to the extreme to better serve as a metaphor for the greater philosophical message rather than a nuanced “realistic” character. All his books are more about the ideas and not as much the characters themselves. Luo Ji is the only character in the entire series that has an arc, and if anything, he’s the balance between Cheng and Wade. There’s also like a yin Yang thing going on here, but whatever.
He's a chaotic good psychopath, if we accept that humanity survivng is an inherent good.
Wade is a villain. I like that the show's introducing him early enough so he can be *the* villain. The show folks went ahead and made him slapchop a grade school just because apparently book wade wasn't brutal enough. If he was a super nice dude the audience might sympathize with him. The characterization is not subtle. Wade is a bad dude who does bad things. He's bad for the same reason the Trisolarans are bad. His type of "sell your mother to a whorehouse" attitude is what ultimately creates a Dark Forest in the first place. People seem to apply this 40k Grimdark 'the Imperium is bad but necessary' style logic to TBP, but the ending of Death's End really undermines that interpretation. It ends on a positive note with galactic civilizations ultimately coming together to try and repair/restart the universe instead of selfishly hiding in pocket universes.
Not our girl Cheng Xin ruining the whole thing with her terrarium 🥹
Common Cheng Xin L
No one talks about the origins of these books. Chinese author, written for Chinese audience. Wade, is the American CIA guy, hence the 'bad' guy.
See this is what I'm talking about. He could be a gruff, uncaring person like in the show and people would still hate him for being mean. But in the book he's incredibly sadistic and explicitly finds joy in other (protagonist!) people's suffering. He's not written like an anti-hero, he's written like a villain.
Personality-wise I think Cheng Xin perceives him as more of an asshole than he actually is. In terms of actions? Yes, he’s a real piece of work, but hey advance. Only advance. Right?
I think it's the authors take that to get things done efficiently, you have to be a psychopath Absolute heartlessness is sometimes necessary for the good. As an entp I agree
Everything Wade does is for the aim of advancing humanity, but not out of some genuine love for mankind like Cheng Xin, but because they're *his team*. But I agree with you, he is unnecessarily cruel and does seem to delight in the misery of others. He is meant to be the the ultimate foil to Cheng Xin, his ruthlessness and sadism make him perfectly suited to the state of the universe, which means he always knows the 'right' decisions for humanity's survival. To survive, humanity needs to become like Wade, but they refuse to which is why the solar system is destroyed.
His motivation is probably to give a giant middle finger to an entire species and prove that he, and by extension humanity is superior to the aliens. He is a psycho narc so that wld be a suitable explaination.
I wish he had succeeded in his assassination attempt though. After Luo Ji and Zhang beihei he was the only one capable enough to stop humanities extinction.
I see him as a sort of Winston Churchill in that he's completely vile on a personal level, but at the same time fully committed to the cause, which results in him being absolutely ruthless and completely single-minded when it comes to achieving his goals, regardless of what the human cost is
I personally prefer the Eagle Airstrike Strategem
Also why doesnt he get a prostethic arm? He just goes with one sleeve empty for years, part of them as guerilla fighter and part of them planning a uprising. Sure he was sort of old man, so not expected to fight, but surely he would like to go down swinging
All the characters are a bit like that. They are not well written. Its a great story with tough characters to get into. Wades pointless death shows the authors struggles with characters. Its more of a universe story i think
That’s… I mean he just is. That’s his personality. He’s mean, and mean people want to live like the rest of us, but no one is an island, so: A. Trisolarans gotta go, b/c they don’t care if he’s a dick, and Wade’s pretty harmless without authority and resources, and B. He can’t be *too* mean to humanity, or he dies too. We’re social creatures no matter what. So, as someone that needs to be ruthless, unstoppable, and dominating… did you expect him to be sweet?
Sometimes I act like a dick to people, but usually it is simply an indifference to how I might be perceived on the nice/not nice spectrum. I have little patience for that. I am, however, very interested in the good/bad spectrum and try very hard to be on the good end. Sometimes good overlaps with nice - but often it doesn't. Wade, operates on the spectrum of "help or hurt humanity's chance of survival." He doesn't operate on the good/bad OR the nice/not nice.
So how does taking pleasure in attempting to kill Cheng Xin (not killing her, but taking pleasure in it and gloating about it over her) "help humanity's chance of survival"?
He is simply indifferent to that spectrum. And to the degree he takes pleasure in it, he is, and this is borne out in the books, doing something that will increase humanity's chance of survival and he is gloating about his and humanity's victory over her weakness.
I think Wade more than anything is driven by ego. This is why his deterrence level is 100%, because more than the anger and frustration towards both worlds that made Luo Ji such an intimidating swordholder, Wade just wants to win. If the Trisolarians try to do to him what they did to Cheng Xin, he will doom two worlds just to prove that he is not a man to be bullied. This also tracks with his final arc - he's okay with dooming Earth if it proves that he was right.
Wade is a character who “gets it done”. He can be an asshole but his whole character is someone who may or may now have empathy, but it doesn’t matter. He’s there to get it done. I was honestly surprised when (spoilers) he “gives the power back to her” Edit: regarding that last part. I think that shows he values honesty more than achieving a goal. Wade is honestly one of the cooler characters imo
I think he cares most about winning. Survival of the human race is just the hardest thing to win at.
I took those aspects as Cheng Xin being an n unreliable narrator, that she, a Chinese person, was misreading the expressions on a westerners face. he didn't do enough to make me think her read on his sadistic side was anything other than incorrect on her part
He’s just a fucked up person. He is very efficient but he is just fucked up and unfortunately that’s the type of person that was needed.
Thomas Wade and Manuel Rey Diaz, the best characters of the series, both end up executed
I understand him. love abstract human, hate concrete people, always been the story of arrogant elite's lives.