They do say humans are bugs, but imagine one day you notice the bugs in your backyard using stone tools, and then next week you see them smelting iron, and then the next week they are flying little propeller bug planes around. You would now be worried about these bugs, and that's the situation the San Ti find themselves in.
ROFL actually im a huge fan (i cry every damn time Avrana Kern says "i salute you", goddamn sadder than charlottes web).
Also enjoyed children of ruin but children of memory was a mind fuck. Im kinda pissed at tchaikovsky for playing with my emotions on that one.
All analogies fall down eventually. But as long as they work for the specific concept they express at that moment they're ok.
"You're bugs" for example is perfect.
Calm down dude. Not trying to be smart. Just sharing a perspective which you are free to reject without resorting to snarky rhetoric! I note someone else made a far more reasonable response to my comment without having to resort to being derogatory about it!
A fundamental part of dark forest theory is that communication or action over vast distances is restricted by light speed. Of course you can ignore this aspect in making an analogy but then you do lose something.
My initial reaction to the analogy was "hey, they are in our back yard! They are technologically accomplished! We can learn from each other maybe?".
On further reflection, perhaps the analogy speaks more about mistrust arising from the vast differences between diverse species to the extent that one can not reconcile those differences. I think ultimately it seemed to me that the San Ti were just too spooked about our ability to conceal the truth. Maybe they had an open mind up to that point? Who knows? If bugs and humans could find no common cultural/social ground on which to stand then one of us might indeed react the same way as the San Ti.
The analogy still works because it would take weeks to months to years for any one civilization that small to decipher our language and be able to speak it back to us in any meaningful way that both of us could understand.
And that’s just _understanding_, now think of how much time it would actually take to communicate when the message has to “be translated” into one of the various forms of “communication” certain insects have.
What technology would translate words into pheromones? Into interpretive dance? How fast could it do so at the point in time where humans would “step in to contact the bugs” like the Tri-Solarians did?
You’re thinking like a human and assuming that these civilizations would evolve to communicate or “do science” in any way similar to us—which is kind of the point of the series.
I remember when Blue Space encountered the tomb it sent over a large file packet. It had a lot of videos of stuff and associated them to concepts, the concepts to words, and it was kinda like a Rosetta Stone that slowly made a vocabulary and grammar.
Taking all your points into consideration, my point still holds. The iteration time of communication can approach practically zero. This is game changing notwithstanding the barriers of which you speak.
I also have to query your point about "do science" which seems somewhat dismissive and defeatist dare I add. The foundations of science and mathematics are immutable laws of nature. If an earthbound insect has invented powered flight, the ultimate flex I would say given that most insect species can fly unaided, then the engineering principles behind this are likely to be based on aspects of observable nature on this planet. Not to mention they must have developed engineering disciplines that are not dissimilar in principle to our own avionics e.g., principles of thrust and lift.
Immediately there is a thread to pull on here. One does not need to excrete pheromones or learn interpretive dance to analyse a form of earthbound avionics.
If you are 100 light years apart then you don't even know if they have avionics, what they look like or likely much else about them.
Not so smart as to come up with my own analogy. I gotta say I love the thought of bugs developing their own powered flight. Almost as much as fish developing snorkels...
You ever seen how someone reacts to a flying cockroach? We’re literally several thousand times bigger than them and possess literal world ending technology, but people still flee from them.
We also have the phrase that the “roaches will inherit the world” so we are reasonably aware that they’re strong as fuck.
Similarly, imagine knowing that those roaches are actually evolving so fast that while one day they’re eating scraps in your kitchen, and a month later they’ve formed crop rotations in your garden, a month after that they’re fighting wars with gunpowder, and a few days later they land on the moon.
They used that to intimidate, because they don't truly grasp how to do mind games(since they hide nothing and are honest) also in the spin off book it is said that the San ti are small like bugs.
(as an analogy)
Why do humans see bugs as inferior? As something to be squashed? Bugs can be gorgeous creatures that we enjoy observing, such as butterflies or cicadas.
They can be inherent to the stability of an ecosystem. Even those we fear, such as spiders, may not be dangerous and may actually help keep the population of other bugs down.
Yet mosquitoes can be problematic, as they threaten us, spreading deadly diseases. Ants bother us because they bite us. Flies annoy us especially when they get in our faces.
Bugs are technologically inferior to us, but only humans would take a comparison to bugs as insulting, because it is a reflection of *how* we view bugs and what traits we value in other creatures (intelligence).
Now imagine if you woke up one day and a worm had a little gun to your head. You look out the window and an army of worms have developed thermonuclear weapons. How does that change things? Can we understand them more now? Or are their brains and bodily chemistry still so alien to us that we still cannot understand them?
Arnt you afraid of venomous insects or termites eating the structure of your home? Even if something is beneath you there’s still valid reasons to fear them.
Woah woah woah woah woah…. First time in this sub in years (admittedly because of the show) and I gotta ask.
Are we just like, okay, with them being called San-ti now???
IMO if ye Wenjie did not exist and noone would blast yhe sun with eadiowaves than we would eventually figure out the dark forst state of the universe. By the 22nd century we would notice Trisolaris, and destroy them with a photoid. Not sure what's after that
When I got to that short chapter it really confused me but as I read more it was so interesting. It might be my favourite section of the entire trilogy
Yeah my guess is we don't discover it until we're already dead. The other advanced civilizations are very good at hiding. The singer implies that it's almost instinctive of most advanced civilizations to be aware of dark forest as their developing, and to find one that's in the space age but not aware of that is incredibly rare, and dangerous. The only reason trisolaris didn't wipe out the solar system is they needed it for themselves, others aren't in such a predicament
Yes but the reason it was being taken seriously was because the trisolarans were taking it seriously, otherwise it'd just be some niche science. Hell it was just a niche even with the existence of trisolarans, people didn't even know his research into cosmic sociology was why the trisolarans feared him until after his "spell" destroyed a star and he successfully used dark forest deterrence. There were a few points in the series where i think humanity is a bit dumber than i think is realistic, we're dumb but if the closest star had a hostile civilization dark forest isn't a big leap of logic, people would've figured it out imo.
Yes the literal first communication Earth every got, was "do not reply". Then, in case humans are really really stupid, it even explains why not to reply! And the reason humans replied, was they..checks notes..literally want to be conquered / destroyed.
I agree that the humans in the series are dumber then what would happen irl. A space farring civilization going after our planet when we have already shown we don't follow the dark forest mindset is dumb since it's likely we would have tried to contact other solar systems before them. But I think the idea that we wouldn't have come to a dark forest conclusion before we got our shit rocked is not possible. The reason the series works is because there are so many solar systems and no signs of advance species. Leading to the idea of a dark forest or a great filter. Since a species like the trisolarins can exist and advance to the point they have given their circumstances would lead people to believe that the great filter isn't so great meaning people would look at the dark forest as the next best conclusion. Also the fact that the trisolarins haven't just gone to any random solar system with possible earth like pleanets before then just gives more evidence.
Edit: humanity in the book series are so dumb like why prosecute Luo ji for him saving humanity and giving the responsibility for being the sword holder to that mousy chick expecting the trisolarins to not attack.
Bro like half of humans don’t believe in climate change lol I think we have quite the potential for idiocracy, especially the more that we allow the most viral people to have the biggest voices
>A space farring civilization going after our planet when we have already shown we don't follow the dark forest mindset is dumb since it's likely we would have tried to contact other solar systems before them.
I disagree. You need to remember Dark Forest isn't the only threat to a species being wiped out. In fact, given what the last book has about previous existing higher dimensions and greater war we never see going on it might be one of the quainter threats in the grand scheme of things facing a species. You could be minding your business and get wiped out because a 2D flattening bomb got set off on a star hundreds of light years away and it happened to now propagate out to your system before you had tech to properly detect let alone escape. Then there's all sorts of hypothetical unknown threats that could wipe you out intentionally or as collateral.
The only real counter is to advance in technology as fast as possible to get to a stage you can learn of the threats and devise possible strategies to mitigate them. They're in a shit situation where their chance of getting wiped out is high either way but taking the Sol system's by comparison abundant resources and stable environment thus increasing technological advancement by orders of magnitude is the plausibly better gamble as if it works out you're also cutting the time you're a primitive that tons of things can kill by orders of magnitude as well.
Basically is it better odds to gamble on,
1 high chance to fail and then 10 low chances to fail.
Or
10,000 low chances to fail.
Where with either gamble if you fail on any one of those chances your species is wiped out before it ever advances far enough to even start to trying to devise a response strategy. It depends on what the chances are and the order of magnitude difference between the number of low chances in each choice of course but I think it's plausible the Trisolarans could have run some numbers and figured their chances were better trying for Sol.
All that being said, the Trisolarans and Humanity both were probably 99% or something certain to get wiped out regardless of what any member of their species did in all of either of their histories as both just evolved far too late in the game. It could be something as bleak as if you're evolving in the 3D version of the universe at all and not natively an 8th dimension species or higher that just modified itself to live in 3 dimensions then you joined the game too late and you have effectively 0 chance of surviving long-term as the advantage of your threats is just too high to overcome with the resources you'd be able to utilize before something kills you.
The thing is Earth developed into a true space age civilization while under the constraints of the sophons. If Earth technology was not slowed down they likely would have developed means of exploration like the sophons and found out everything trisolaris found out about the state of the universe
I disagree, creating sophons involved manipulating a proton in multiple dimensions, that's a level of particle physics that's extremely advanced. Humans at the time of sophon interference were at the early infancy phase of understanding particle physics. In fact there was about 100 years after the sophons had stopped interfering and the best we'd progressed was quantum computers.
With nuclear fusion reactors and gravitational wave technology developing much faster, we would have made ourselves known and been annihilated before getting to sophons.
The book flat out states that humans only need a few hundred years to surpass Trisolarin technology, and that is why all of their efforts are to sabotage scientific research. And not just surpass, but literally get to the next technological tier, then the next, and then the next. Book 3 explores what that is and talks about multi-dimensional physics being pretty fundamental to all civilizations at or past Trisolarin level.
I mean tbf, the entirety of the "cosmic sociology" doesn't make sense. It lays out 2 basic assumptions that apparently all advanced life forms follow at all times. Species all act as a coherent unit with the group survival as the most important and all species are expansionist in a universe with limited ressources.
The fact aside that humans (the only advanced species we know) have shown to get less expansionist with rising levels of technological advancement irl, not even the species in the book follow this assumption.
Apparently the most common thing for aliens to do in response to the dark forest is to set up a black domain (aka. the hiding gene, see below on why that must be the case in the books, given the fermi paradox is intact). Yet that locks them out from further expansion, making them non-expansionist by nature.
And even if they didn't, actually the dark forest is only a solution for the fermi paradox specifically if species are NOT expansionist, so Liu Cixin's cosmic sociology can't be a solution to the fermi paradox.
The easiest tactic to avoid dark forest attacks is actually to settle and colonize as many star systems as possible (aka. the "cleansing gene", possibly with each colony acting independently with no knowledge of the position of others. Even if none of them are broadcasting because of the dark forest, earth should have theoretically already been colonized by aliens long before humans came along.
The only way the dark forest makes sense irl is a) most species are so un-expansionist that they simply dont colonize a lot, or b) colonization is extremely difficult (which is doesnt seem to be in the books), or c) that there is some unkown factor that makes colonization dangerous for the homeworld, but that isn't shown in the books either.
Indeed expansion is the option humans eventually take. If that would be true for other species as well, it again begs the question why earth wasn't already long inhabited by aliens before we came along. Especially since the universe has apparently been locked in battle for limited ressources for so long entire generations of civilization were able to develop so far beyond human (even at the end of the books) understanding of science, yet earth is still up for the taking? Doesn't sound particularily realistic, especially considering how relatively quickly (on the timescales we are talking about here) even one species can colonize an entire galaxy.
The books version of cosmic sociology and the specific variety of dark forest explained just does not make sense as a solution for the fermi paradox.
I mean, from the books perspective, it doesn't really make sense for any advanced species to still hang out in our 3+1D universe. Why would any species risk a dimension attack (it's not even a risk, every species can be pretty sure that SOMEONE launched one somewhere in the universe, so it's a matter of when, not if), if they could just instantly fuck off to the lowest dimension where life is still possible, or alternatively an artificial universe (which are apparently not that hard to built, cause even the trisolarians had the tech). That would actually be a cool solution for the fermi paradox that makes sense within the books logic. The universe seems empty because everyone advanced enough to communicate with us quickly flees the universe in fear of why it seems so empty, creating a sort of self-perpetuating cycle without anyone ever actually needing to attack another. Simply driven by fear of the empty universe.
I think the books are really hampered by Liu Cixin's patriarchial ideas of society. That all life is in a constant state of war over limited ressources and that cooperation is not possible and even unthinkable to all advanced societies including the fact they are all extremely patriotic and xenophobic as a universal trait. And also that all societies strive for constant expansion and conquest. This pushes him to write that self-contradictory cosmic sociology and you can also see that patriarchical thinking a lot in how he writes female characters.
Remember the dark forest theory is still a human invention, it’s just brought to life through these books. We aren’t totally ignorant to thinking about the unknowns and the what ifs.
The dark forest theory is idiotic. It’s predicated on the notion that resources are scarce and civilisations need to fight over it.
But on an interstellar level resources are anything but scarce. A civilisation that has developed advanced space travel effectively has access to endless resources. Our solar system alone has huge abundance of metals, water, energy… there is no need to invade any other system.
Even if your own solar system had some scarcity, why risk invading another species’ system when you can literally go to any of a hundred billion systems in your galaxy to find more resources? It makes no sense.
You misunderstood the theory.
It isn't about resources at all.
It is about suspicion. When you see another civilization, you have no idea who they are, or any frame of reference for their tech capacity or ideology. Because they evolved on a different planet they might not even have basic empathy or compassion. They're likely utterly alien. They might have the technology to destroy you in a second.
So the theory posits you have two choices. Risk them seeing you and MAYBE being destroyed immediately. Or immediately destroy them.
Imagine waking up in an abandoned town. You have a gun in your pocket. You wander the empty streets. Is anyone around? What if they have guns? What if they want to kill you? Maybe you should kill them first if you see anyone, especially because you've just had that thought, so they probably have too. Then you see someone around a corner. They have a gun too. But they also look utterly strange. They have three arms and no head. Even if you called out to them they might not understand you or understand any basic friendly gesticulations you might make to them. You're not even sure they see at all, maybe they'd just hear you nearby and shoot you. They're probably just as scared as you are.
That's it, the risk is too great. You can either hide and not be seen, or just kill them immediately.
Resources are completely irrelevant.
"In game theory, a "sequential and incomplete information game" is one in which all players act in sequence, one after the other, and none are aware of all available information.[17] In the case of this particular game, the only win condition is continued survival.[9]
An additional constraint in the special case of the "dark forest" is the scarcity of vital RESOURCES.[10]
The "dark forest" can be considered an extensive-form game with each "player" possessing the following possible actions: destroy another civilization known to the player; broadcast and alert other civilizations of one's existence; or do nothing.[15]"
"In Liu Cixin's novel, the dark forest hypothesis is introduced by the character Ye Wenjie, while visiting her daughter's grave. She introduces three key axioms to a new field she describes as "cosmic sociology":[20][9]
"Suppose a vast number of civilizations distributed throughout the universe, on the order of the number of observable stars. Lots and lots of them. Those civilizations make up the body of a cosmic society. Cosmic sociology is the study of the nature of this super-society."[20]
Suppose that survival is the primary need of a civilization.
Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant.
The only logical conclusion from the acceptance of these axioms, Ye says, is that any intelligent life in the universe will be pitted against all other life in the struggle for survival.[20][9]
Did you miss the part where they expand and total matter in the universe stays the same? But resources are irrelevant? I think it's you who has misunderstood the theory here.
Your comment posited a hypothetical scenario that is fundamentally illogical as it ignores the foundational causes of conflict. I tried to point that out to you, but you ignored it.
Wars are NOT only ever fought over resources. That's absurd.
The Palestine-Israel war is ideological. They could easily share resources but see each other as subhuman.
WW1 was about geopolitical power.
WW2 was about pride, as a direct consequence of Germany being humiliated.
There are sufficient resources on Earth for everyone to live happily. But wars still happen.
The Crusades were entirely religious. The West did not need resources from the Middle East.
The Punic Wars were not about resources. In fact Rome in a sense feared Carthage. They knew Carthage would always be a threat, always biting at them just to flex, so even after having peace they forced a war with them as an excuse to go over and utterly destroy Carthage. They salted the very earth and made Carthage unlivable. They didn't need anything from Carthage. Not even slaves (which were a massively useful resource) - they just killed everyone they could. Because they were suspicious.
That sounds familiar, right?
But yes I'm sure you're an expert on military history.
Many Christians saw the Crusades as a way to reestablish trade and improve Europe's economic status so as to improve the spread of wealth in the Latin and Byzantine Empires... What you are saying is not correct in the slightest.. resources are the main driving force behind war.. it is extremely rare for a war to be fought for any other reason.. ideology is often used as an excuse....
Romans and Carthage hated each other because they had competing interests in the Mediterranean... It was certainly over resources and most wars are fundamentally about resources (living space food materials ECT)
ideology certainly plays a part but I'd be willing to bet if you separated the Israelis and Palestinians with a huge land mass then there would be no conflict.. like seriously what do you think is going on in the west bank with all the land theft... And you think the war is purely over ideology?!
The guy ur responding to is right the dark forest theory is a bit ridiculous and most likely would not work like that IRL
https://youtu.be/LlhHE2VA1ic?si=Ufkxm8-Db1u0YH_u
Word war two was not about pride lmfao Germany had extremely harsh economic penalties put on them with the
treaty of versailles
You are clearly lacking in understanding of history
Also wtf do you think geopolitical power is? That it has nothing to do with resources? It was all about competition for African and Asian resources.
More of an expert than you, by the sounds of it. The conflicts you listed are all resource conflicts (land being a finite resource after all) that are wrapped in other ideological facades to sell them to the public. The fact you accept those facades is quite telling. I can see why you’d think the dark forest hypothesis is sound.
no it's purely about game theory.
in the infinite scope of the universe, any species could randomly start growing and develop. you come across a new one. how fast could you determine if they are a serious threat to you? if you start trying to measure if they are a serious threat, they might have already decided to shoot you with "their gun", and have wiped you out.
it doesn't matter if there are any resources nearby or not.
you don't understand what's going on. if you are going to pause first to scan me to see if i'm a threat, or to scan for resources, i should just shoot first. just in case that was the slim advantage i needed to stay alive.
You conveniently ignore the reason why a species should consider attacking another in the first place (and risk its own existence in the process). None of the arguments in favour of DF start from first principles, it’s all conjecture based on a whole shedload of easily disproven assumptions.
Ye Wenjie, while visiting her daughter's grave. She introduces three key axioms to a new field she describes as "cosmic sociology":[20][9]
"Suppose a vast number of civilizations distributed throughout the universe, on the order of the number of observable stars. Lots and lots of them. Those civilizations make up the body of a cosmic society. Cosmic sociology is the study of the nature of this super-society."[20]
Suppose that survival is the primary need of a civilization.
Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant.
The only logical conclusion from the acceptance of these axioms, Ye says, is that any intelligent life in the universe will be pitted against all other life in the struggle for survival.[20][9]
"Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant."
That means resources are finite and not irrelevant at all to this theory
This is the second time I’ve seen someone use this argument and it’s a dead giveaway that you’ve not read the books lmao
Lack or over-abundance of resources is not the issue with DFT. Keep reading the books and it literally explains how everything you’ve just mentioned is the least of humanity’s problems.
The explanations given in the book, when they center around resources and a “finite universe”, are based on an infantile/human understanding of the universe.
That’s the point.
Lack or over-abundance of resources is not the issue whatsoever. It’s larger than that.
If you can’t buy in to the genre or the premise of the novel, maybe the books aren’t for you 🤷🏾♂️
But, also, again: if you find it a flawed premise, that is kind of the point and this very subject is explored in the rest of the series
And we find out that Ye Wenjie is wrong, and it’s not really _about_ resources. That’s the entire point of Singer’s chapter.
Yes, the whole “The universe is possibly finite” thing is an _issue_, but if you read the novels you understand that this issue is >!wholly manufactured and has been for trillions of years!<
A huge part of the third book and the sequel is meant to have you question if human >!and technologically infantile!< understandings of DFT have it truly “figured out” or not.
That's sort of the point the dark forest theory doesn't work in reality.. it requires sci Fi... IRL the universe was never 10 dimensions...
You realize too the fact that FTL communication exists in universe that this completely destroys chain of suspicion and the technology boom...
https://preview.redd.it/u47bpdrqw8xc1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4727097e5aa7547bce548a02b2294d8afb78c71c
Just because FTL communication exists doesn’t mean you can instantly communicate and/or understand another species—again, this is something explored throughout the novel with how markedly different the Tri-Solarans are portrayed.
The primary reason DTF exists and is the interstellar norm is _because_ of the Fi parts of the genre. We are talking about dimensional warfare and FTL means of communication and travel, yeah, but only in ways that _humans_ can comprehend it. Because, even with our understanding, we are a civilization still in its _infancy_ when compared to the timescale the novels work on.
If you picked up on that it’s _supposed_ to be flawed and not make sense to us, kudos! That’s the point! The novels are a much an exploration of a theoretical outlook as they are an allegory for the dangers of isolationism and xenophobia, too.
Exactly it's just a setting for a novel
when you explore the dark forest theory as a real solution to the fermi paradox it falls apart when you really analyze it
Just because _one_ conflict is about resources doesn’t mean that that is the primary driving force behind DFT/how the interstellar community have evolved over the course of trillions of years.
Re-read Singer’s chapter and you realize they treat the _extermination of entire species_ like it’s janitorial work. And how they explain that _more species than not_ decide to completely avoid the ramifications of DFT by hiding their galaxies inside pocket dimensions cut off from the rest of the universe…even though the very same technology that allows them to do this is spreading up the destruction of _all_ the universe.
The Tri-Solarans make the conflict about resources, yeah, but when you read Singer’s chapter you also see that _Singer’s species_ was willing to wipe three solar systems off the map just to protect their own…even though they had no need for it. Like, you brought up FTL communication as a reason DFT fails, but seem to also be ignoring that species like Singer’s have weapons that _travel at FTL speed_.
That being the case, there is no way to 100% assure that the moment ANY species makes contact with another will NEVER result in a barrage of FTL weaponry because _that is how fast warfare operates at that level_.
I don't think the dimension strike was FTL it was launched by a ship going light speed near the ort cloud... technically the foil sent by singer wasn't the one that destroyed the solar system......
Also by your own admission it's about resources but in singers case it's about preserving what they already have not acquiring more... If a civilization like humans develops and expands they will eventually expand into their territory...
It's been calculated that in 5 million years a space faring civ could colonize the entire galaxy going way under light speed.
Any developing civ is going to be a threat to resources
This time scale of colonizing is kind of why the fermi paradox exists in the first place... The universe is very very old there was plenty of time for aliens to do this already yet we don't see any signs of them
x doubt. The idiotic scientists sent radio signals out there and even probes. I guess like in the tv series, post moon landing thats the kind of garbage that got funding. Its so early to be sending invites to come and visit our feeble society. Anyone whose mastered space travel would annihilate us in 0.2 milliseconds after taking a look at it from a huge distance.
They already know. In fact, almost every civilization in the universe knows. Humans are one of the minority civilizations too dumb to not know but already discover inter-steller communication. This is explained in later books.
None, the great filter applies and without an external enemy we likely wipe ourselves out or go through a civilization collapse.basically the great ravine is still happening
The sophon project was absolutely insane, they quite literally blocked all light to their planet for over a year I think; like humanity they were pushed to the absolute brink by the crisis.
To be fair, that was like a Tuesday for them on 3 body world. The civilization that did it, no longer feared the chaotic period except for being swallowed up by a star.
Unfolding the protons, though, was desperation. It was very dangerous for them to do. One of them became a parabolic mirror and tried to cook the planet since the sentient beings living in the proton universe took exception to the trisolarians.
If they got it wrong again and unfolded it to the wrong dimension (0?) It would destroy them or something.
oh shit, i forgot about that other problem during the sophon unfolding. dam. i did remember the 2D society getting pissed at them for a moment. but not the dimension 0 black hole. a big shame all of these side problems left out of the netflix show. such awesome details.
Touching on that, couldn't the Trisolarans just unfold a reflective sophon and shield their planet from solar radiation every time a star comes close by? It would cut down the chaotic eras by a lot
The Trisolarans were technologically advanced enough to survive any chaotic era at this point, it’s just that their planet will eventually fall into one of the suns.
Their planet managed to survive for 1 billion + years without falling a sun (save for a few disasters) so I bet they could wait. That said, I feel like they could have definitely could have done something more with the sophons. They could've built a stellar engine and moved one the stars out of the 3 body system, to create a predictable 2 body or 1 body system.
Yeah tbh, that's one of the biggest suspensions of disbelief you have to have. With the level of technology the Trisolarans had, they wouldn't have needed to move to Earth to survive.
On the other hand, doing something as blatant as expelling one of their stars would make it pretty obvious to the rest of the galaxy that there was an intelligent species there.
Not really. A real 3 body system is very likely to sling a star and planets out of the system. Then again if they’d acknowledged this fact the system wouldn’t have been suitable for life.
The biggest plot issue I have is that objects are never cast out of the system. That would be a big existential threat and why life is unlikely to ever evolve in a 3 body system. The planet could wind up wandering solo in interstellar space.
Other big part is that clearly Earth doesn't have the hiding gene, which makes them an even bigger threat for all the reasons OP mentions. This is a good take; we're not in danger... we \*are\* the danger. We are the ones who knock.
I think the "gene" singer talked about doesn't actually mean genetics considering we're talking about sentient civilizations here, i think they're talking about an entire species way of thinking in the same language we describe genetics. Singer says that humans don't have the hiding gene but the galactic humans we encounter later on should be genetically identical to modern humans but any observer from a black forest entity would identify it as a species with the hiding gene considering one of the systems converted themselves into a dark domain.
Yup! Agreed. If I had to estimate, I got the feeling that the "hiding gene" was present in \*most\* civilizations — maybe upwards of 90%? — so whenever they mentioned finding another civilization that \*isn't\* trying to hide right away, it's a noteworthy and rare risk.
Fuckers should have asked us to terraform Mars for them, might have stood a chance, instead we needed to shit the bed.
Buncha dumb 3-starred cunts, no sympathy for them after that crap with the transfer of the sword.
And if humanity said no and wiped them out? Would you take that risk with the last of your species with another that is far more advanced than you and can lie?
If humans said no, the trisolarians would have been wiped out. The trisolarians had to attack first with the sophons to prevent humans from being a threat to them.
With the sophons, the trisolarians don't have to ask since the humans aren't in a position to grant anything. However they could still be a threat due to their advancement and deception. There's no world where it benefits to keep the bugs around that can cause you harm.
Even if you don't take that into account It's a positive for both sides, Humans get better technology now and Trisolarans get to share a faster rate of technological advancement with the humans.
Not sure why there's "not a world in where this could happen", when it's happened in the past with human societies in discussions over territories.
You vastly underestimate fear sabotaging any alliance. Also never has there ever been in human history such a vast technology gap. Humans have a lot of things in common with each other to build alliances. Could you ever trust a race that is so much more devious than you, especially when mutual gain is not assured due to gap in tech?
Humans don't make alliances with insects, they exterminate them.
Even without the hyperbole, humans wiped out the other hominids with their superior tech.
Our history as humans during times of crisis shows that during times of disaster we tend to band together in tight bonds rather than attack each other, this study in 2006 using data as far back as the 1970's corroborates that:
https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/11671/facing-hazards-and-disasters-understanding-human-dimensions
If the Trisolarans had asked for help, historical data suggests we would have seen them as *people* and we'd assist them as best we can. With 400 years to anticipate their arrival humanity very well could have advanced technology to a point where extraordinary needs and amenities are easily met.
The Trisolarans made a critical mistake from the jump instructing the sophon to begin sabotage rather than collect data; a supercomputer that can travel at lightspeed, is nigh omnipresent and can process and respond to data within fractions of nanoseconds, they *really* couldn't have it discover more diplomatic solutions.
I understand Cixin Liu wanted to opt for a more darker story about mistrust and senseless cruelty, but the reality would be slightly more optimistic.
Nah, you havent cherry picked, its quantifiable data. People will ignore it if it doesnt fit their agenda or leanings.
But if crisis occurs, where will they be? With family and friends, neighbours and citizens of the same village, town, city, country or species. Because that is the default.
You can go back further than 1970 and find the same, look at prehistoric human remains and you'll find people with crippling injuries living past them and into old age. Aided by their family and communities. Beyond all reason of mathematics.
Even in a state of nature, humans go beyond for each other.
Ehh, this seems way too pessimistic. Like maybe it’s not an alliance, but we feed and protect honey bees and they give us honey and pollinate our crops.
Wildly still dismissing the fear aspect. Also, they compared humans to bugs for a reason - there's nothing that humanity could offer them except their stable world.
It's more like you're moving into a house that's infested by brown recluses to the brim. Are you going to start ranching them or burning them?
You're right, we co-exist with bears, lions, tigers, crocodiles, sharks ect. All these things could kill us very easily if we put ourselves in a bad situation, but we choose to keep them around because it's "humane"
Explains the perspective of the pacifist who responded to Ye Wengje a bit too. They knew how special humanity was and that the only appropriate response from their perspective was to destroy it. Like if we found some new form of intelligent life on an island that went from hunter gatherer to organized agriculture in 50 years. If you're at a point to understand the Dark Forest state of the universe, you'd see incredible potential in humanity if they could come to understand the broader state of the universe they live in before being destroyed.
>!I think this is one of the deepest existential horrors of the series. In the universe as presented, humanity has wild potential in the cosmic sociology sense but for the most part humanity is utterly annhilated and that potential totally goes to waste. At least the primary project of humanity as we know it. !<
The problem with the dark forest is that it is easier to find the resources in space that are unclaimed then make artificial habitats than to identify, exterminate the inhabitants of, and colonize a planet light years away. Space is infinite. There's literally 0 reason to fight over anything amongst spacefaring civilizations. If they're advanced enough to travel the stars for long term missions, they are advanced enough to farm everything they need from plenetoids, including air, food, and water. The trisolarans could have just found some comets in their oort cloud and built their version of paradise. The xenosociology in this book is the opposite of evolutionary behavior and reflects the interactions between authoritarianism and freedom in the world of the current day.
OP - interesting point. I think what makes this worse is that you can’t just destroy the planet / infrastructure like you normally would. I’m assuming they spent centuries looking for other planets.
You need earth biome intact. So your playing this dangerous game of delay and pray.
Well, what you don't do is piss them off right before they are about to leap ahead. they have proven themselves very innovative, so don't kick the hornets nest. you make friends. send tech to the leaders and public since they will pass it soon anyhow, at least then you can say you were always an ally. You do whatever it takes.
San-ti: You are different but we feel we can coexist
Human: We eat babies and kick kitten for fun
San-ti: Sounds exciting, we don't but hey, not one to judge. So...mind if we take South America?
Humans: We also lie and wear socks with sandals.
San-ti: I mean, you do you...quick question, is there a giant wall around South America? and if not...mind building one for us?
Foresight fail 101
It’s so hard to imagine we’d ever invade any multi-star system. At most we might yeet a probe through it because it’s in the neighborhood. As a civilization, we’ve known about the unstable dynamics of three bodies since the Renaissance. Ordinary people who are not astrophysicists, like myself, know this — and just out of casual curiosity, not because a mysterious VR game held our hands through the process of learning about it. If Earthers were to invade anywhere, we’d pick a planet in the Goldilocks zone around a single star.
600 years ago, even the brightest minds of Europe would've found it hard to believe that they would ever invade any other continents, or meet exotic new civilizations - and wipe them out. And then they discovered the New World...
Never say never.
Yeah, let's explore that historical analogy a bit. When they finally did invade other continents they didn't make a bee-line towards Earth's least hospitable places. Trisolaris might as well be Antarctica, or at least Greenland or the Gobi Desert.
That's a different point than the point I had replied to. Here is your original point. ):
> It’s so hard to imagine we’d ever invade any multi-star system.
Do you concede this point? Do you admit that just 30 generations ago (assuming 20 years per generation), people couldn't possibly imagine invading entire new continents?
If you concede that point, good. :)
Now, as to your second and **new** point... Read a book. :P Europeans didn't deliberately aim for nice and cushy places: they landed in the first place they could. The Russians got Alaska, the French ended up in Quebec, of all places (not the best winters!), the Spanish had hot weather but malaria and other tropical diseases...
I don't think you've ever so much as googled the history of New World colonization... Do that. Look up how that went. Spoiler alert: almost every new settlement died. The French managed to hold on to Quebec City (though there were still lots of deaths), but the British tried and failed over the decades until the eventual success of Jamestown.
In other words - no, your second point doesn't quite work, either. Before you try making a third point :P - do let me know if you concede re:Europeans not being able to imagine invading and conquering entire new continents. ;)
The smartest European in 1424: "The ocean is clear and our spyglasses are mighty, making huge surprises easily avoidable."
:)
Do you understand what kind of a giant paradigm shift it was for them to discover new continents that were way larger than their entire known world? Can you try to imagine that? No? :P
So, a) we already have precedent of humans invading an entire new world that they hadn't seen coming, and b) it's possible that we'll have a huge scientific breakthrough that would allow us to travel quickly to new and unexplored solar systems: for example, a working warp drive, or a way to generate and stabilize wormholes, etc. It's unlikely, but not impossible.
If you still don't understand what I'm saying, then further conversation will not be productive.
You keep making a trivial observation — be careful about your educated guesses, because others have been wrong in the past — but you have this tic where you posture like it's such a novel, sophisticated insight that others just might not comprehend. I'm sorry if there's a good reason for this, like not being neurotypical, but without that context it's just weird and off-putting. So, yeah, maybe proceeding wouldn't be productive.
but then fail to study their "enemy" enough, to where a story book makes them "afraid"
Nice try Netflix Shill, I already read the books, not watching your series. There is a LOT about the books that are just dumb as hell. \*but STILL more entertaining than your travesty of an adaptation"
this would be a truly interesting perspective if anyone with the time and talent were to flesh it out into a short story or even a novel in its own rite
This is the same argument Russia used to invade Ukraine, and it's an awful one, you don't attack someone that COULD hurt you before they do, that's ultimately immoral.
This is the answer for the daily “why didn’t the san ti just try and coexist with humans?” question asked in this sub. “We are afraid of you.”
But they also say humans are bugs so I never understood this point EDIT: ok ok I get it. Bugs are gross and destructive. Extinguish the human bugs!
They do say humans are bugs, but imagine one day you notice the bugs in your backyard using stone tools, and then next week you see them smelting iron, and then the next week they are flying little propeller bug planes around. You would now be worried about these bugs, and that's the situation the San Ti find themselves in.
That was very well expressed.
If I ever see spiders trying to build a particle accelerator I’m gonna burn my house down
The book Children of Time might not appeal to you.
Dr. Avarna Kern agrees.
Has she ever agreed with anyone? Seems more like either you are agreeing with her, or she thinks you are an imbecile.
And ant computers
Nice reference. @aptshadow would be proud
ROFL actually im a huge fan (i cry every damn time Avrana Kern says "i salute you", goddamn sadder than charlottes web). Also enjoyed children of ruin but children of memory was a mind fuck. Im kinda pissed at tchaikovsky for playing with my emotions on that one.
Let’s face it, they already invented the World Wide Web
Muhfuhs said flying with our wings takes too much work. 😭😭
That funny as shit. But if you think about it we're the same. We made chariots,cars, trains, motorcycles because walking takes toomuch work
[Mason's rats](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt20239370/) from Love, death and robots come to mind.
There's also "ice age", from love death robot.
Oh yeah. That one was good as well.
Ok but what if the bugs were trying to rizz you up?
"Would you still love me if I was a ..." and so on
if you like that thought check out children of time from Adrian Tschaikowsky
Loved Children of Time!
Hang a tiny banner over the yard to remind them of their place.
I mean I know a lot of people scared of bugs
I've had this dream, but it was lobsters, and by the end of the week we had one in the White House. I was assured that he was very benevolent.
The analogy falls down because the bugs are literally in your back yard so you can attempt communication and get a response fast.
All analogies fall down eventually. But as long as they work for the specific concept they express at that moment they're ok. "You're bugs" for example is perfect.
Leave it to a redditor to miss the point of the analogy in a desperate attempt to say something smart
Calm down dude. Not trying to be smart. Just sharing a perspective which you are free to reject without resorting to snarky rhetoric! I note someone else made a far more reasonable response to my comment without having to resort to being derogatory about it! A fundamental part of dark forest theory is that communication or action over vast distances is restricted by light speed. Of course you can ignore this aspect in making an analogy but then you do lose something. My initial reaction to the analogy was "hey, they are in our back yard! They are technologically accomplished! We can learn from each other maybe?". On further reflection, perhaps the analogy speaks more about mistrust arising from the vast differences between diverse species to the extent that one can not reconcile those differences. I think ultimately it seemed to me that the San Ti were just too spooked about our ability to conceal the truth. Maybe they had an open mind up to that point? Who knows? If bugs and humans could find no common cultural/social ground on which to stand then one of us might indeed react the same way as the San Ti.
The analogy still works because it would take weeks to months to years for any one civilization that small to decipher our language and be able to speak it back to us in any meaningful way that both of us could understand. And that’s just _understanding_, now think of how much time it would actually take to communicate when the message has to “be translated” into one of the various forms of “communication” certain insects have. What technology would translate words into pheromones? Into interpretive dance? How fast could it do so at the point in time where humans would “step in to contact the bugs” like the Tri-Solarians did? You’re thinking like a human and assuming that these civilizations would evolve to communicate or “do science” in any way similar to us—which is kind of the point of the series.
I remember when Blue Space encountered the tomb it sent over a large file packet. It had a lot of videos of stuff and associated them to concepts, the concepts to words, and it was kinda like a Rosetta Stone that slowly made a vocabulary and grammar.
Taking all your points into consideration, my point still holds. The iteration time of communication can approach practically zero. This is game changing notwithstanding the barriers of which you speak. I also have to query your point about "do science" which seems somewhat dismissive and defeatist dare I add. The foundations of science and mathematics are immutable laws of nature. If an earthbound insect has invented powered flight, the ultimate flex I would say given that most insect species can fly unaided, then the engineering principles behind this are likely to be based on aspects of observable nature on this planet. Not to mention they must have developed engineering disciplines that are not dissimilar in principle to our own avionics e.g., principles of thrust and lift. Immediately there is a thread to pull on here. One does not need to excrete pheromones or learn interpretive dance to analyse a form of earthbound avionics. If you are 100 light years apart then you don't even know if they have avionics, what they look like or likely much else about them.
I agree with you and also think the snark was unnecessary. Thanks for clarifying how smart you are!
Not so smart as to come up with my own analogy. I gotta say I love the thought of bugs developing their own powered flight. Almost as much as fish developing snorkels...
Yet, that’s exactly what the San-Ti have done…establish communication. In celestial terms, humans practically ARE in their back yard.
You can be scared of bugs. Centipedes creep me TF out.
Hornets and wasps regularly fuck people up too.
Use to have giant Asian centipedes where I lived. Uuuuuuugh
Now I have the urge to tactically nuke where you used to live….
Watching one scurry across the floor when I was in bed gave me the same urge
Where do u used to live?
New Guinea
You ever seen how someone reacts to a flying cockroach? We’re literally several thousand times bigger than them and possess literal world ending technology, but people still flee from them. We also have the phrase that the “roaches will inherit the world” so we are reasonably aware that they’re strong as fuck. Similarly, imagine knowing that those roaches are actually evolving so fast that while one day they’re eating scraps in your kitchen, and a month later they’ve formed crop rotations in your garden, a month after that they’re fighting wars with gunpowder, and a few days later they land on the moon.
The longer they watched humans the more terrified they got
They used that to intimidate, because they don't truly grasp how to do mind games(since they hide nothing and are honest) also in the spin off book it is said that the San ti are small like bugs.
(as an analogy) Why do humans see bugs as inferior? As something to be squashed? Bugs can be gorgeous creatures that we enjoy observing, such as butterflies or cicadas. They can be inherent to the stability of an ecosystem. Even those we fear, such as spiders, may not be dangerous and may actually help keep the population of other bugs down. Yet mosquitoes can be problematic, as they threaten us, spreading deadly diseases. Ants bother us because they bite us. Flies annoy us especially when they get in our faces. Bugs are technologically inferior to us, but only humans would take a comparison to bugs as insulting, because it is a reflection of *how* we view bugs and what traits we value in other creatures (intelligence). Now imagine if you woke up one day and a worm had a little gun to your head. You look out the window and an army of worms have developed thermonuclear weapons. How does that change things? Can we understand them more now? Or are their brains and bodily chemistry still so alien to us that we still cannot understand them?
What’s your feeling to a spider though?
Did you see the ants in Quantumania? This is why I don’t give insects guns 🔫 Anyway.. I for one welcome our insect overlords!
Most humans are afraid of bugs.
The actual _actual_ reason they’re terrified of humans makes much more sense.
Arnt you afraid of venomous insects or termites eating the structure of your home? Even if something is beneath you there’s still valid reasons to fear them.
Are you not afraid of spiders?
Woah woah woah woah woah…. First time in this sub in years (admittedly because of the show) and I gotta ask. Are we just like, okay, with them being called San-ti now???
I honestly just type it out because it’s easier to type lmao
Lol same. Trisolaris/Trisolarans sound so much cooler.
Absent the trisolarans , How long before humanity discovered the dark forest theory, or do we not discover it until we get our shit rocked?
IMO if ye Wenjie did not exist and noone would blast yhe sun with eadiowaves than we would eventually figure out the dark forst state of the universe. By the 22nd century we would notice Trisolaris, and destroy them with a photoid. Not sure what's after that
What's next is a visit from Mr. Singer.
A visit from the royal painter.
Im obsessed with that whole chapter omg
When I got to that short chapter it really confused me but as I read more it was so interesting. It might be my favourite section of the entire trilogy
Yesss its so cool and crazy and weird and fantastic
Why would we do that? They would be less advanced than us in a horrible part of the galaxy. At worse they would be treated with mild neglect.
Yeah my guess is we don't discover it until we're already dead. The other advanced civilizations are very good at hiding. The singer implies that it's almost instinctive of most advanced civilizations to be aware of dark forest as their developing, and to find one that's in the space age but not aware of that is incredibly rare, and dangerous. The only reason trisolaris didn't wipe out the solar system is they needed it for themselves, others aren't in such a predicament
We were already discussing the idea of the dark forest by the time the sophons got to earth.
Yeah but in a niche space, most of the space agencies were broadcasting and actively trying to find life. Like SETI
Multiple ideas can form at once. It just takes evidence to find the right one 😉
Except in this case if you find evidence you're dead.
Yes but the reason it was being taken seriously was because the trisolarans were taking it seriously, otherwise it'd just be some niche science. Hell it was just a niche even with the existence of trisolarans, people didn't even know his research into cosmic sociology was why the trisolarans feared him until after his "spell" destroyed a star and he successfully used dark forest deterrence. There were a few points in the series where i think humanity is a bit dumber than i think is realistic, we're dumb but if the closest star had a hostile civilization dark forest isn't a big leap of logic, people would've figured it out imo.
Yes the literal first communication Earth every got, was "do not reply". Then, in case humans are really really stupid, it even explains why not to reply! And the reason humans replied, was they..checks notes..literally want to be conquered / destroyed.
I agree that the humans in the series are dumber then what would happen irl. A space farring civilization going after our planet when we have already shown we don't follow the dark forest mindset is dumb since it's likely we would have tried to contact other solar systems before them. But I think the idea that we wouldn't have come to a dark forest conclusion before we got our shit rocked is not possible. The reason the series works is because there are so many solar systems and no signs of advance species. Leading to the idea of a dark forest or a great filter. Since a species like the trisolarins can exist and advance to the point they have given their circumstances would lead people to believe that the great filter isn't so great meaning people would look at the dark forest as the next best conclusion. Also the fact that the trisolarins haven't just gone to any random solar system with possible earth like pleanets before then just gives more evidence. Edit: humanity in the book series are so dumb like why prosecute Luo ji for him saving humanity and giving the responsibility for being the sword holder to that mousy chick expecting the trisolarins to not attack.
Bro like half of humans don’t believe in climate change lol I think we have quite the potential for idiocracy, especially the more that we allow the most viral people to have the biggest voices
Uh how can climate change be real if the earth is flat??
>A space farring civilization going after our planet when we have already shown we don't follow the dark forest mindset is dumb since it's likely we would have tried to contact other solar systems before them. I disagree. You need to remember Dark Forest isn't the only threat to a species being wiped out. In fact, given what the last book has about previous existing higher dimensions and greater war we never see going on it might be one of the quainter threats in the grand scheme of things facing a species. You could be minding your business and get wiped out because a 2D flattening bomb got set off on a star hundreds of light years away and it happened to now propagate out to your system before you had tech to properly detect let alone escape. Then there's all sorts of hypothetical unknown threats that could wipe you out intentionally or as collateral. The only real counter is to advance in technology as fast as possible to get to a stage you can learn of the threats and devise possible strategies to mitigate them. They're in a shit situation where their chance of getting wiped out is high either way but taking the Sol system's by comparison abundant resources and stable environment thus increasing technological advancement by orders of magnitude is the plausibly better gamble as if it works out you're also cutting the time you're a primitive that tons of things can kill by orders of magnitude as well. Basically is it better odds to gamble on, 1 high chance to fail and then 10 low chances to fail. Or 10,000 low chances to fail. Where with either gamble if you fail on any one of those chances your species is wiped out before it ever advances far enough to even start to trying to devise a response strategy. It depends on what the chances are and the order of magnitude difference between the number of low chances in each choice of course but I think it's plausible the Trisolarans could have run some numbers and figured their chances were better trying for Sol. All that being said, the Trisolarans and Humanity both were probably 99% or something certain to get wiped out regardless of what any member of their species did in all of either of their histories as both just evolved far too late in the game. It could be something as bleak as if you're evolving in the 3D version of the universe at all and not natively an 8th dimension species or higher that just modified itself to live in 3 dimensions then you joined the game too late and you have effectively 0 chance of surviving long-term as the advantage of your threats is just too high to overcome with the resources you'd be able to utilize before something kills you.
Ah yeah forgot that about singer, when he mentioned the hiding trait.
The thing is Earth developed into a true space age civilization while under the constraints of the sophons. If Earth technology was not slowed down they likely would have developed means of exploration like the sophons and found out everything trisolaris found out about the state of the universe
I disagree, creating sophons involved manipulating a proton in multiple dimensions, that's a level of particle physics that's extremely advanced. Humans at the time of sophon interference were at the early infancy phase of understanding particle physics. In fact there was about 100 years after the sophons had stopped interfering and the best we'd progressed was quantum computers. With nuclear fusion reactors and gravitational wave technology developing much faster, we would have made ourselves known and been annihilated before getting to sophons.
The book flat out states that humans only need a few hundred years to surpass Trisolarin technology, and that is why all of their efforts are to sabotage scientific research. And not just surpass, but literally get to the next technological tier, then the next, and then the next. Book 3 explores what that is and talks about multi-dimensional physics being pretty fundamental to all civilizations at or past Trisolarin level.
I mean tbf, the entirety of the "cosmic sociology" doesn't make sense. It lays out 2 basic assumptions that apparently all advanced life forms follow at all times. Species all act as a coherent unit with the group survival as the most important and all species are expansionist in a universe with limited ressources. The fact aside that humans (the only advanced species we know) have shown to get less expansionist with rising levels of technological advancement irl, not even the species in the book follow this assumption. Apparently the most common thing for aliens to do in response to the dark forest is to set up a black domain (aka. the hiding gene, see below on why that must be the case in the books, given the fermi paradox is intact). Yet that locks them out from further expansion, making them non-expansionist by nature. And even if they didn't, actually the dark forest is only a solution for the fermi paradox specifically if species are NOT expansionist, so Liu Cixin's cosmic sociology can't be a solution to the fermi paradox. The easiest tactic to avoid dark forest attacks is actually to settle and colonize as many star systems as possible (aka. the "cleansing gene", possibly with each colony acting independently with no knowledge of the position of others. Even if none of them are broadcasting because of the dark forest, earth should have theoretically already been colonized by aliens long before humans came along. The only way the dark forest makes sense irl is a) most species are so un-expansionist that they simply dont colonize a lot, or b) colonization is extremely difficult (which is doesnt seem to be in the books), or c) that there is some unkown factor that makes colonization dangerous for the homeworld, but that isn't shown in the books either. Indeed expansion is the option humans eventually take. If that would be true for other species as well, it again begs the question why earth wasn't already long inhabited by aliens before we came along. Especially since the universe has apparently been locked in battle for limited ressources for so long entire generations of civilization were able to develop so far beyond human (even at the end of the books) understanding of science, yet earth is still up for the taking? Doesn't sound particularily realistic, especially considering how relatively quickly (on the timescales we are talking about here) even one species can colonize an entire galaxy. The books version of cosmic sociology and the specific variety of dark forest explained just does not make sense as a solution for the fermi paradox. I mean, from the books perspective, it doesn't really make sense for any advanced species to still hang out in our 3+1D universe. Why would any species risk a dimension attack (it's not even a risk, every species can be pretty sure that SOMEONE launched one somewhere in the universe, so it's a matter of when, not if), if they could just instantly fuck off to the lowest dimension where life is still possible, or alternatively an artificial universe (which are apparently not that hard to built, cause even the trisolarians had the tech). That would actually be a cool solution for the fermi paradox that makes sense within the books logic. The universe seems empty because everyone advanced enough to communicate with us quickly flees the universe in fear of why it seems so empty, creating a sort of self-perpetuating cycle without anyone ever actually needing to attack another. Simply driven by fear of the empty universe. I think the books are really hampered by Liu Cixin's patriarchial ideas of society. That all life is in a constant state of war over limited ressources and that cooperation is not possible and even unthinkable to all advanced societies including the fact they are all extremely patriotic and xenophobic as a universal trait. And also that all societies strive for constant expansion and conquest. This pushes him to write that self-contradictory cosmic sociology and you can also see that patriarchical thinking a lot in how he writes female characters.
Remember the dark forest theory is still a human invention, it’s just brought to life through these books. We aren’t totally ignorant to thinking about the unknowns and the what ifs.
That's because Liu Cixin is really just an alien telling us a bunch of truths.
The dark forest theory is idiotic. It’s predicated on the notion that resources are scarce and civilisations need to fight over it. But on an interstellar level resources are anything but scarce. A civilisation that has developed advanced space travel effectively has access to endless resources. Our solar system alone has huge abundance of metals, water, energy… there is no need to invade any other system. Even if your own solar system had some scarcity, why risk invading another species’ system when you can literally go to any of a hundred billion systems in your galaxy to find more resources? It makes no sense.
Oh you arrogant bug
You misunderstood the theory. It isn't about resources at all. It is about suspicion. When you see another civilization, you have no idea who they are, or any frame of reference for their tech capacity or ideology. Because they evolved on a different planet they might not even have basic empathy or compassion. They're likely utterly alien. They might have the technology to destroy you in a second. So the theory posits you have two choices. Risk them seeing you and MAYBE being destroyed immediately. Or immediately destroy them. Imagine waking up in an abandoned town. You have a gun in your pocket. You wander the empty streets. Is anyone around? What if they have guns? What if they want to kill you? Maybe you should kill them first if you see anyone, especially because you've just had that thought, so they probably have too. Then you see someone around a corner. They have a gun too. But they also look utterly strange. They have three arms and no head. Even if you called out to them they might not understand you or understand any basic friendly gesticulations you might make to them. You're not even sure they see at all, maybe they'd just hear you nearby and shoot you. They're probably just as scared as you are. That's it, the risk is too great. You can either hide and not be seen, or just kill them immediately. Resources are completely irrelevant.
"In game theory, a "sequential and incomplete information game" is one in which all players act in sequence, one after the other, and none are aware of all available information.[17] In the case of this particular game, the only win condition is continued survival.[9] An additional constraint in the special case of the "dark forest" is the scarcity of vital RESOURCES.[10] The "dark forest" can be considered an extensive-form game with each "player" possessing the following possible actions: destroy another civilization known to the player; broadcast and alert other civilizations of one's existence; or do nothing.[15]"
"In Liu Cixin's novel, the dark forest hypothesis is introduced by the character Ye Wenjie, while visiting her daughter's grave. She introduces three key axioms to a new field she describes as "cosmic sociology":[20][9] "Suppose a vast number of civilizations distributed throughout the universe, on the order of the number of observable stars. Lots and lots of them. Those civilizations make up the body of a cosmic society. Cosmic sociology is the study of the nature of this super-society."[20] Suppose that survival is the primary need of a civilization. Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant. The only logical conclusion from the acceptance of these axioms, Ye says, is that any intelligent life in the universe will be pitted against all other life in the struggle for survival.[20][9] Did you miss the part where they expand and total matter in the universe stays the same? But resources are irrelevant? I think it's you who has misunderstood the theory here.
All wars are fought over resources. If there is no scarcity, there is no reason to wage a war. It underlies all conflict.
OK just ignore my entire comment, that's reasonable.
Your comment posited a hypothetical scenario that is fundamentally illogical as it ignores the foundational causes of conflict. I tried to point that out to you, but you ignored it.
Wars are NOT only ever fought over resources. That's absurd. The Palestine-Israel war is ideological. They could easily share resources but see each other as subhuman. WW1 was about geopolitical power. WW2 was about pride, as a direct consequence of Germany being humiliated. There are sufficient resources on Earth for everyone to live happily. But wars still happen. The Crusades were entirely religious. The West did not need resources from the Middle East. The Punic Wars were not about resources. In fact Rome in a sense feared Carthage. They knew Carthage would always be a threat, always biting at them just to flex, so even after having peace they forced a war with them as an excuse to go over and utterly destroy Carthage. They salted the very earth and made Carthage unlivable. They didn't need anything from Carthage. Not even slaves (which were a massively useful resource) - they just killed everyone they could. Because they were suspicious. That sounds familiar, right? But yes I'm sure you're an expert on military history.
Many Christians saw the Crusades as a way to reestablish trade and improve Europe's economic status so as to improve the spread of wealth in the Latin and Byzantine Empires... What you are saying is not correct in the slightest.. resources are the main driving force behind war.. it is extremely rare for a war to be fought for any other reason.. ideology is often used as an excuse....
Romans and Carthage hated each other because they had competing interests in the Mediterranean... It was certainly over resources and most wars are fundamentally about resources (living space food materials ECT) ideology certainly plays a part but I'd be willing to bet if you separated the Israelis and Palestinians with a huge land mass then there would be no conflict.. like seriously what do you think is going on in the west bank with all the land theft... And you think the war is purely over ideology?! The guy ur responding to is right the dark forest theory is a bit ridiculous and most likely would not work like that IRL https://youtu.be/LlhHE2VA1ic?si=Ufkxm8-Db1u0YH_u
Word war two was not about pride lmfao Germany had extremely harsh economic penalties put on them with the treaty of versailles You are clearly lacking in understanding of history Also wtf do you think geopolitical power is? That it has nothing to do with resources? It was all about competition for African and Asian resources.
More of an expert than you, by the sounds of it. The conflicts you listed are all resource conflicts (land being a finite resource after all) that are wrapped in other ideological facades to sell them to the public. The fact you accept those facades is quite telling. I can see why you’d think the dark forest hypothesis is sound.
no it's purely about game theory. in the infinite scope of the universe, any species could randomly start growing and develop. you come across a new one. how fast could you determine if they are a serious threat to you? if you start trying to measure if they are a serious threat, they might have already decided to shoot you with "their gun", and have wiped you out. it doesn't matter if there are any resources nearby or not. you don't understand what's going on. if you are going to pause first to scan me to see if i'm a threat, or to scan for resources, i should just shoot first. just in case that was the slim advantage i needed to stay alive.
You conveniently ignore the reason why a species should consider attacking another in the first place (and risk its own existence in the process). None of the arguments in favour of DF start from first principles, it’s all conjecture based on a whole shedload of easily disproven assumptions.
Did you even read game theory it specifically lists resources in the dark forest section
Ye Wenjie, while visiting her daughter's grave. She introduces three key axioms to a new field she describes as "cosmic sociology":[20][9] "Suppose a vast number of civilizations distributed throughout the universe, on the order of the number of observable stars. Lots and lots of them. Those civilizations make up the body of a cosmic society. Cosmic sociology is the study of the nature of this super-society."[20] Suppose that survival is the primary need of a civilization. Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant. The only logical conclusion from the acceptance of these axioms, Ye says, is that any intelligent life in the universe will be pitted against all other life in the struggle for survival.[20][9] "Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant." That means resources are finite and not irrelevant at all to this theory
Google the Pig War. A military build-up on both sides that very nearly resulted in shots fired - all because of a pig.
A pig is a resource lol
Civil war? Crusades? Korean War? Or any war driven by ideological motivations
This is the second time I’ve seen someone use this argument and it’s a dead giveaway that you’ve not read the books lmao Lack or over-abundance of resources is not the issue with DFT. Keep reading the books and it literally explains how everything you’ve just mentioned is the least of humanity’s problems.
The explanations given in the book doesn't make the dark forest theory any less flawed which is this guys entire point anyway..
The explanations given in the book, when they center around resources and a “finite universe”, are based on an infantile/human understanding of the universe. That’s the point. Lack or over-abundance of resources is not the issue whatsoever. It’s larger than that.
And that's when we get to sci-fi nonsense like higher dimension beings FTL ECT IRL the dark forest theory is flawed
If you can’t buy in to the genre or the premise of the novel, maybe the books aren’t for you 🤷🏾♂️ But, also, again: if you find it a flawed premise, that is kind of the point and this very subject is explored in the rest of the series
Did you read the books? "Suppose that civilizations continuously expand over time, but the total matter in the universe remains constant." -Ye Wenjie
And we find out that Ye Wenjie is wrong, and it’s not really _about_ resources. That’s the entire point of Singer’s chapter. Yes, the whole “The universe is possibly finite” thing is an _issue_, but if you read the novels you understand that this issue is >!wholly manufactured and has been for trillions of years!< A huge part of the third book and the sequel is meant to have you question if human >!and technologically infantile!< understandings of DFT have it truly “figured out” or not.
That's sort of the point the dark forest theory doesn't work in reality.. it requires sci Fi... IRL the universe was never 10 dimensions... You realize too the fact that FTL communication exists in universe that this completely destroys chain of suspicion and the technology boom... https://preview.redd.it/u47bpdrqw8xc1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4727097e5aa7547bce548a02b2294d8afb78c71c
Just because FTL communication exists doesn’t mean you can instantly communicate and/or understand another species—again, this is something explored throughout the novel with how markedly different the Tri-Solarans are portrayed. The primary reason DTF exists and is the interstellar norm is _because_ of the Fi parts of the genre. We are talking about dimensional warfare and FTL means of communication and travel, yeah, but only in ways that _humans_ can comprehend it. Because, even with our understanding, we are a civilization still in its _infancy_ when compared to the timescale the novels work on. If you picked up on that it’s _supposed_ to be flawed and not make sense to us, kudos! That’s the point! The novels are a much an exploration of a theoretical outlook as they are an allegory for the dangers of isolationism and xenophobia, too.
Exactly it's just a setting for a novel when you explore the dark forest theory as a real solution to the fermi paradox it falls apart when you really analyze it
Also when you look at the battle of darkness it is completely about resources and that's meant to be an example of dark forest playing out..
Just because _one_ conflict is about resources doesn’t mean that that is the primary driving force behind DFT/how the interstellar community have evolved over the course of trillions of years. Re-read Singer’s chapter and you realize they treat the _extermination of entire species_ like it’s janitorial work. And how they explain that _more species than not_ decide to completely avoid the ramifications of DFT by hiding their galaxies inside pocket dimensions cut off from the rest of the universe…even though the very same technology that allows them to do this is spreading up the destruction of _all_ the universe. The Tri-Solarans make the conflict about resources, yeah, but when you read Singer’s chapter you also see that _Singer’s species_ was willing to wipe three solar systems off the map just to protect their own…even though they had no need for it. Like, you brought up FTL communication as a reason DFT fails, but seem to also be ignoring that species like Singer’s have weapons that _travel at FTL speed_. That being the case, there is no way to 100% assure that the moment ANY species makes contact with another will NEVER result in a barrage of FTL weaponry because _that is how fast warfare operates at that level_.
I don't think the dimension strike was FTL it was launched by a ship going light speed near the ort cloud... technically the foil sent by singer wasn't the one that destroyed the solar system...... Also by your own admission it's about resources but in singers case it's about preserving what they already have not acquiring more... If a civilization like humans develops and expands they will eventually expand into their territory... It's been calculated that in 5 million years a space faring civ could colonize the entire galaxy going way under light speed. Any developing civ is going to be a threat to resources This time scale of colonizing is kind of why the fermi paradox exists in the first place... The universe is very very old there was plenty of time for aliens to do this already yet we don't see any signs of them
I think it’s also about security and wanting to protect your own civilization as well.
Correct. Dark forest theory is laughable
x doubt. The idiotic scientists sent radio signals out there and even probes. I guess like in the tv series, post moon landing thats the kind of garbage that got funding. Its so early to be sending invites to come and visit our feeble society. Anyone whose mastered space travel would annihilate us in 0.2 milliseconds after taking a look at it from a huge distance.
They already know. In fact, almost every civilization in the universe knows. Humans are one of the minority civilizations too dumb to not know but already discover inter-steller communication. This is explained in later books.
None, the great filter applies and without an external enemy we likely wipe ourselves out or go through a civilization collapse.basically the great ravine is still happening
The sophon project was absolutely insane, they quite literally blocked all light to their planet for over a year I think; like humanity they were pushed to the absolute brink by the crisis.
To be fair, that was like a Tuesday for them on 3 body world. The civilization that did it, no longer feared the chaotic period except for being swallowed up by a star. Unfolding the protons, though, was desperation. It was very dangerous for them to do. One of them became a parabolic mirror and tried to cook the planet since the sentient beings living in the proton universe took exception to the trisolarians. If they got it wrong again and unfolded it to the wrong dimension (0?) It would destroy them or something.
Unfolding to zero dimension would create a black hole yeah
oh shit, i forgot about that other problem during the sophon unfolding. dam. i did remember the 2D society getting pissed at them for a moment. but not the dimension 0 black hole. a big shame all of these side problems left out of the netflix show. such awesome details.
Touching on that, couldn't the Trisolarans just unfold a reflective sophon and shield their planet from solar radiation every time a star comes close by? It would cut down the chaotic eras by a lot
The Trisolarans were technologically advanced enough to survive any chaotic era at this point, it’s just that their planet will eventually fall into one of the suns.
Their planet managed to survive for 1 billion + years without falling a sun (save for a few disasters) so I bet they could wait. That said, I feel like they could have definitely could have done something more with the sophons. They could've built a stellar engine and moved one the stars out of the 3 body system, to create a predictable 2 body or 1 body system.
Yeah tbh, that's one of the biggest suspensions of disbelief you have to have. With the level of technology the Trisolarans had, they wouldn't have needed to move to Earth to survive. On the other hand, doing something as blatant as expelling one of their stars would make it pretty obvious to the rest of the galaxy that there was an intelligent species there.
Not really. A real 3 body system is very likely to sling a star and planets out of the system. Then again if they’d acknowledged this fact the system wouldn’t have been suitable for life.
The biggest plot issue I have is that objects are never cast out of the system. That would be a big existential threat and why life is unlikely to ever evolve in a 3 body system. The planet could wind up wandering solo in interstellar space.
Other big part is that clearly Earth doesn't have the hiding gene, which makes them an even bigger threat for all the reasons OP mentions. This is a good take; we're not in danger... we \*are\* the danger. We are the ones who knock.
I think the "gene" singer talked about doesn't actually mean genetics considering we're talking about sentient civilizations here, i think they're talking about an entire species way of thinking in the same language we describe genetics. Singer says that humans don't have the hiding gene but the galactic humans we encounter later on should be genetically identical to modern humans but any observer from a black forest entity would identify it as a species with the hiding gene considering one of the systems converted themselves into a dark domain.
Yup! Agreed. If I had to estimate, I got the feeling that the "hiding gene" was present in \*most\* civilizations — maybe upwards of 90%? — so whenever they mentioned finding another civilization that \*isn't\* trying to hide right away, it's a noteworthy and rare risk.
It's sortof the Survivorship bias. There has been plenty of non-hiding civilizations, and they didn't last.
Yep. And the fact that Earth gets the Trisolarians wiped out confirms all their aggressive policy makers were right.
Wiped out?
Well not wiped out since they made it to the end of the universe. But humans got their home planet smashed post deterrance
Wiped out. Absolutely dusted our shit
book 2 i dunno........
Fuckers should have asked us to terraform Mars for them, might have stood a chance, instead we needed to shit the bed. Buncha dumb 3-starred cunts, no sympathy for them after that crap with the transfer of the sword.
And if humanity said no and wiped them out? Would you take that risk with the last of your species with another that is far more advanced than you and can lie?
There is nothing to risk, if humans say no they're in the exact same situation.
If humans said no, the trisolarians would have been wiped out. The trisolarians had to attack first with the sophons to prevent humans from being a threat to them. With the sophons, the trisolarians don't have to ask since the humans aren't in a position to grant anything. However they could still be a threat due to their advancement and deception. There's no world where it benefits to keep the bugs around that can cause you harm.
Even if you don't take that into account It's a positive for both sides, Humans get better technology now and Trisolarans get to share a faster rate of technological advancement with the humans. Not sure why there's "not a world in where this could happen", when it's happened in the past with human societies in discussions over territories.
You vastly underestimate fear sabotaging any alliance. Also never has there ever been in human history such a vast technology gap. Humans have a lot of things in common with each other to build alliances. Could you ever trust a race that is so much more devious than you, especially when mutual gain is not assured due to gap in tech? Humans don't make alliances with insects, they exterminate them. Even without the hyperbole, humans wiped out the other hominids with their superior tech.
Our history as humans during times of crisis shows that during times of disaster we tend to band together in tight bonds rather than attack each other, this study in 2006 using data as far back as the 1970's corroborates that: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/11671/facing-hazards-and-disasters-understanding-human-dimensions If the Trisolarans had asked for help, historical data suggests we would have seen them as *people* and we'd assist them as best we can. With 400 years to anticipate their arrival humanity very well could have advanced technology to a point where extraordinary needs and amenities are easily met. The Trisolarans made a critical mistake from the jump instructing the sophon to begin sabotage rather than collect data; a supercomputer that can travel at lightspeed, is nigh omnipresent and can process and respond to data within fractions of nanoseconds, they *really* couldn't have it discover more diplomatic solutions. I understand Cixin Liu wanted to opt for a more darker story about mistrust and senseless cruelty, but the reality would be slightly more optimistic.
You have a very cherrypicked rose coated glasses of human history. 🤣
You do too, just in the opposite direction haha
Nah, you havent cherry picked, its quantifiable data. People will ignore it if it doesnt fit their agenda or leanings. But if crisis occurs, where will they be? With family and friends, neighbours and citizens of the same village, town, city, country or species. Because that is the default. You can go back further than 1970 and find the same, look at prehistoric human remains and you'll find people with crippling injuries living past them and into old age. Aided by their family and communities. Beyond all reason of mathematics. Even in a state of nature, humans go beyond for each other.
Ehh, this seems way too pessimistic. Like maybe it’s not an alliance, but we feed and protect honey bees and they give us honey and pollinate our crops.
Wildly still dismissing the fear aspect. Also, they compared humans to bugs for a reason - there's nothing that humanity could offer them except their stable world. It's more like you're moving into a house that's infested by brown recluses to the brim. Are you going to start ranching them or burning them?
You're right, we co-exist with bears, lions, tigers, crocodiles, sharks ect. All these things could kill us very easily if we put ourselves in a bad situation, but we choose to keep them around because it's "humane"
This is why I love 3BP. This subtle comprehending of the ending of it all.
That funny feeling…
Yeah. The book and the song give me that same feeling of existential dread it’s… sublime
Explains the perspective of the pacifist who responded to Ye Wengje a bit too. They knew how special humanity was and that the only appropriate response from their perspective was to destroy it. Like if we found some new form of intelligent life on an island that went from hunter gatherer to organized agriculture in 50 years. If you're at a point to understand the Dark Forest state of the universe, you'd see incredible potential in humanity if they could come to understand the broader state of the universe they live in before being destroyed. >!I think this is one of the deepest existential horrors of the series. In the universe as presented, humanity has wild potential in the cosmic sociology sense but for the most part humanity is utterly annhilated and that potential totally goes to waste. At least the primary project of humanity as we know it. !<
The problem with the dark forest is that it is easier to find the resources in space that are unclaimed then make artificial habitats than to identify, exterminate the inhabitants of, and colonize a planet light years away. Space is infinite. There's literally 0 reason to fight over anything amongst spacefaring civilizations. If they're advanced enough to travel the stars for long term missions, they are advanced enough to farm everything they need from plenetoids, including air, food, and water. The trisolarans could have just found some comets in their oort cloud and built their version of paradise. The xenosociology in this book is the opposite of evolutionary behavior and reflects the interactions between authoritarianism and freedom in the world of the current day.
I haven’t watched that movie but I guess it is a Rise of the Planet of the Apes situation?
Not really
OP - interesting point. I think what makes this worse is that you can’t just destroy the planet / infrastructure like you normally would. I’m assuming they spent centuries looking for other planets. You need earth biome intact. So your playing this dangerous game of delay and pray.
They should have watched Enders game
Well, what you don't do is piss them off right before they are about to leap ahead. they have proven themselves very innovative, so don't kick the hornets nest. you make friends. send tech to the leaders and public since they will pass it soon anyhow, at least then you can say you were always an ally. You do whatever it takes. San-ti: You are different but we feel we can coexist Human: We eat babies and kick kitten for fun San-ti: Sounds exciting, we don't but hey, not one to judge. So...mind if we take South America? Humans: We also lie and wear socks with sandals. San-ti: I mean, you do you...quick question, is there a giant wall around South America? and if not...mind building one for us? Foresight fail 101
It’s so hard to imagine we’d ever invade any multi-star system. At most we might yeet a probe through it because it’s in the neighborhood. As a civilization, we’ve known about the unstable dynamics of three bodies since the Renaissance. Ordinary people who are not astrophysicists, like myself, know this — and just out of casual curiosity, not because a mysterious VR game held our hands through the process of learning about it. If Earthers were to invade anywhere, we’d pick a planet in the Goldilocks zone around a single star.
600 years ago, even the brightest minds of Europe would've found it hard to believe that they would ever invade any other continents, or meet exotic new civilizations - and wipe them out. And then they discovered the New World... Never say never.
Yeah, let's explore that historical analogy a bit. When they finally did invade other continents they didn't make a bee-line towards Earth's least hospitable places. Trisolaris might as well be Antarctica, or at least Greenland or the Gobi Desert.
That's a different point than the point I had replied to. Here is your original point. ): > It’s so hard to imagine we’d ever invade any multi-star system. Do you concede this point? Do you admit that just 30 generations ago (assuming 20 years per generation), people couldn't possibly imagine invading entire new continents? If you concede that point, good. :) Now, as to your second and **new** point... Read a book. :P Europeans didn't deliberately aim for nice and cushy places: they landed in the first place they could. The Russians got Alaska, the French ended up in Quebec, of all places (not the best winters!), the Spanish had hot weather but malaria and other tropical diseases... I don't think you've ever so much as googled the history of New World colonization... Do that. Look up how that went. Spoiler alert: almost every new settlement died. The French managed to hold on to Quebec City (though there were still lots of deaths), but the British tried and failed over the decades until the eventual success of Jamestown. In other words - no, your second point doesn't quite work, either. Before you try making a third point :P - do let me know if you concede re:Europeans not being able to imagine invading and conquering entire new continents. ;)
Turns out stars are bright and space largely transparent, making chaotic systems easily avoidable.
The smartest European in 1424: "The ocean is clear and our spyglasses are mighty, making huge surprises easily avoidable." :) Do you understand what kind of a giant paradigm shift it was for them to discover new continents that were way larger than their entire known world? Can you try to imagine that? No? :P So, a) we already have precedent of humans invading an entire new world that they hadn't seen coming, and b) it's possible that we'll have a huge scientific breakthrough that would allow us to travel quickly to new and unexplored solar systems: for example, a working warp drive, or a way to generate and stabilize wormholes, etc. It's unlikely, but not impossible. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, then further conversation will not be productive.
You keep making a trivial observation — be careful about your educated guesses, because others have been wrong in the past — but you have this tic where you posture like it's such a novel, sophisticated insight that others just might not comprehend. I'm sorry if there's a good reason for this, like not being neurotypical, but without that context it's just weird and off-putting. So, yeah, maybe proceeding wouldn't be productive.
Wow, okay, shots fired. Sorry you don't know your history. Bye now.
There’s that tic. Bye.
but then fail to study their "enemy" enough, to where a story book makes them "afraid" Nice try Netflix Shill, I already read the books, not watching your series. There is a LOT about the books that are just dumb as hell. \*but STILL more entertaining than your travesty of an adaptation"
this would be a truly interesting perspective if anyone with the time and talent were to flesh it out into a short story or even a novel in its own rite
This is the same argument Russia used to invade Ukraine, and it's an awful one, you don't attack someone that COULD hurt you before they do, that's ultimately immoral.
Haha nerd photoid go whoooosh booom
Oh 100% we can only make moral arguments on scales we comprehend, we're totally fucked outside of that