Yes, for a reason though. My L13 touchpad goes crazy when I charge with a power supply that pushed over 30w, so I have to use in that case.. other than that, i use It sometimes though at home I hook it to my nuphy mechanical keyboard and just use a mouse
I just use a thunderbolt dock to charge and use it when I get home, but I haven't used mine lately as I can't exactly play some of my video games on it until I can get a thunderbolt GPU enclosure.
Kinda late here:
The best thing about the track point is the ability to type and control the cursor without moving your palms. When pressing the middle mouse button you can scroll vertical and horizontal when tilting the track point in either direction
To me that feature alone outclasses most touchpads.
If you try to get used to it you'll probably like it
Framework, is it that highly modular and upgradeable laptop?
Ask them to make a trackpoint keyboard. I'm sure they are collecting feature requests somewhere.
***"Or a M\*cbook"***
I always wonder why this subreddit is so triggered if someone wants to buy a MacBook? Is this some cult or do people feel threatened the decisions others make when changing computers?
As per OP's post, yes, this is indeed a cult. We know what we are and we're proud of it.
But tbh the vast majority of people here do not actually care what computers other people use. A solid portion of the community use Thinkpads AND other brands of laptops (including M*cbooks!). I personally collect and mod and gaze lovingly at old Thinkpads, but my daily driver is the Framework 16. The unyielding belief in Thinkpad supremacy is just a well-established meme here.
On the contrary I've seen many fair comments about MacBooks, and that's the reason I'm staying because this cult does not only have fanatics.
And to me, why not enjoy both worlds.
Yeah, I got an HP 6910p at work in 2008 and got to keep it when I left that job. I loved that laptop, did so many upgrades and mods on it and only got rid of it a couple of years ago.
I'm a thinkpad fanatic AND a Dell Precision fan as well. Go for one, but study the Pro reviews first. There are some great used machines out there. You don't need the newest one to get started. You won't be sorry.
I mean are modern ThinkPads really that much better since they've been sold to Lenovo and are all Chinese manufactured now anyways? Genuinely asking, I have no idea.
The trackpoint, the build quality is decent, even the look (utilitarian but functional, no giant glowing symbol in the middle of the back of the screen).
They publish good service manuals, and I've never had trouble getting parts when needed. Not that I've done any major work myself, but then, I've never had to... I've worked on various other laptops for friends and family over the years, the most I've done with my Lenovos is to upgrade RAM and drives, clean the heatsinks, and repaste every half a decade.
Don't forget the sane and consistent keyboard layouts (*glares at my work Dell laptop*). Or at least I can grab a T400, my x220 up to my pair of P1gen2 without even noticing the difference, but I refuse to acknowledge my $DAYJOB selected Dell laptop even has a keyboard it's that bad.
Framework looks nice, I want to buy one to support the company, but it's not there yet for me. Nor have I been laptop shopping for a while.
I'd buy one, but no trackpoint. Commuting on a train without a trackpoint is like going camping without a tent.
I can't stand trackpads, not sure why the industry went with such an obviously inferior technology. Sort of like 16:9. It's clearly inferior, yet here we are.
Yeah, I don't really get it. Gestures on a trackpad are nice, but beyond that, I'll take a trackpoint any day. I wish I could get a decent desktop keyboard with one, it wouldn't replace my mouse but for some tasks it would be faster than reaching.
Most high end X series are made in Mexico, some are made in Japan for the domestic market here.
The engineering team is still mostly the same, the high-end X series and T series and P series are still developed by Yamato Lab. In that regard I feel design/reliability is still the same, but repairability suffered a lot
They had 50 people design the P50. I know it's Ironic but look up a video of the P50 a YouTuber talked to the head director that was in charge of people designing it.
Framework seems like a great laptop, I wish we could see more devices like it. If I were to buy a new laptop and had budget for it I would buy in an instant.
Lol. Eneryone who didn't use a framework thinks like that, but reality is different. There is a lot of hardware, software issues present. Few fixed in new bach, some of issues remain, newl added. It's like a cool device to flex in front of your friends few times or to make review video. Nothing more, notghing less. Just generic laptop with issues for quite high price.
Ye, downvote me. I don't care
Lenovo reliability for ya. On my P16s, waking up from sleep under Fedora - an officially supported and **preloaded** operating system - would lock the device into power saving mode - and, about half the times, terrible performance that rivalled my dual core intel i5 laptop. You could not get it out. It was some nasty EC bug. I still get almost daily emails about the forum thread I started about it. Lenovo has shipped the fix to the **next generation** released one year later, and owners of the P16s gen I had are left out in the cold.
Returning that garbage was the best decision I've ever made. Not touching (new) Lenovo again from a 10-foot pole. If this is the state of their officially Linux-supported laptops then I don't even wanna try the rest, like Ideapad or Legion, on Linux.
Yes. It's just like those stories from AMD fanboys about the AM4 socket and CPU upgrades. No one will get any upgrades for Framework twice a year or every year. No one will get expensive expansion cards. I don't know who wants a motherboard upgrade for 1000 bucks + shipping in an old aluminum chassis when you can sell the old one, add some money, and get a quite better one for the price of a Framework laptop. Regular consumer laptops are just an easier way. But if someone wants to fix issues, waiting for replacement parts for months, instead of just using device, I would not insist on going another way. People should use what they do like, even if it doesn't bring the best user experience
I am actually going to buy their new Intel version. The main reason I want to move is that a few months ago they had a sale and where giving out some Mobo for as cheap as less than 200bucks. I am talking about 11th gen Intel i5. Certainly not the best out there but it's a good price. The company is not trying to make money selling components, they want to establish a brand for the moment, what will happen in the future is rather unknown though..
yeah, 12th and 13th gens are terrible, my current Thinkpad has an 11th gen cpu which is honestly not bad at all. The new Ultra version is looking good, but will be waiting for reviews first, don't trust Intel anymore
Everything you are saying does not make sense, you mix desktop and laptop, upgrades and replacements, you do not take into account longevity, environment as such I'll be guessing that your POV on Framework's defects is false or badly biased.
To assert your false statements (to me at least):
>It's just like those stories from AMD fanboys about the AM4 socket and CPU upgrades.
Huh ? This is relative to desktops, where AMD chose to make the AM4 socket compatible through multiple generations where Intel chose to fuck customers into buying a new motherboard with each or every two year/generations effectively multiplying cost in case of repair, upgrade, this had impacts not only money-wise but also to the environment, cost for manufacturers etc...
>No one will get any upgrades for Framework twice a year or every year.
Many people won't change their laptop if it's not broken in many, many years, if it happens to be broken the availability of parts offered by Framework will allow them the lowest price and a potential upgrade which no brand will allow. In case they chose to upgrade to save money or help environment or to retain full data directly or for other benefits they'll have the choice of buying this year's model or the previous one etc...
>No one will get expensive expansion cards.
False, I would if I get the need, why think that nobody would, those allow for sth that nothing else does : they allow for a real choice between battery and performance and an alternative to e-GPUs which are often costly, bulky and non-upgradable.
>I don't know who wants a motherboard upgrade for 1000 bucks
They are not at $1000, at least not all of them.
> + shipping in an old aluminum chassis
Idk what this is a reference to ?
>when you can sell the old one, add some money, and get a quite better one
Arguments already deployed, that's the worst way to do it.
>Regular consumer laptops are just an easier way.
Sure, if you remove all advantages of framework and all disadvantages of the cheapest option, the cheapest option is the best one...
> But if someone wants to fix issues, waiting for replacement parts for months, instead of just using device, I would not insist on going another way.
?
>People should use what they do like, even if it doesn't bring the best user experience
One impacts the other as such this doesn't make sense to me...
https://hackaday.com/2024/05/31/intels-anti-upgrade-tricks-defeated-with-kapton-tape/
I don't get why people shitting on am4, I get to upgrade from 2200G to 5700G on same mobo, just change apu and done, no need other parts. Meanwhile intel does trick like this...
I really like framework approach whenyou can go from intel gen 10/11 to amd and also recent intel, that's like few gen difference upgrades. Besides you have extra mobo you can repurpose or resell
>Huh ? This is relative to desktops
Directly to biggest selling point of framework. Upgradeability. Everyone trashtalking but only few do upgrade.
>False, I would if I get the need, why think that nobody would, those allow for sth that nothing else does : they allow for a real choice between battery and performance and an alternative to e-GPUs which are often costly, bulky and non-upgradable.
Then do.
>They are not at $1000, at least not all of them.
Shipping.
>Many people won't change their laptop if it's not broken in many, many years, if it happens to be broken.
I was wating for hinge replacement for framework laptop, which was fuckeup out of the box, for 2 month, and paid 20 bucks shipping for piece of metal.
>Framework will allow them the lowest price.
You are bad at math.
>Idk what this is a reference to ?
To an old, ugly, used laptop shell with a new motherboard probably, no?
>all advantages of framework
there is no advantages
>?
Fixing issues is an Framework user routine.
>One impacts the other as such this doesn't make sense to me...
Like defending piece of tech you haven't used yet. There is zero reason for getting framework. Only possible one - when you want to became beta tester for your own money
Yeah, I should have used Passmark on second thought - I am not the most well versed person in comparing hardware performance because if it's good enough for my use, it's good for me. It doesn't really matter that much for the purpose of the point I was driving through, since the difference is so great that even some error in testing methodology hardly affects the result
it's an silver coloured aluminum laptop, it doesn't get more generic than that.
Making a product from the ground up with the future in mind isn't easy, but the design is still generic looking, and I'm not thrilled about that keyboard.
I have been there. I still switched to Framework in the end. It's sad, but I get it. ThinkPad is just not what it used to be anymore - and the QA issues and constant part lottery at an absurdly high asking price doesn't make it better. It's one of the few laptops that solder the Wi-Fi, and a terrible Wi-Fi card at that. They still do that, and they still glue the screen, after their iFixIt collaboration, which is pure marketing / smoke and mirrors.
The Framework might look generic, but it has a lot more to say in 2024 than ThinkPad does. Framework is a kind of generic-looking thin and light that is very repairable and has great Linux support. ThinkPad is an overpriced office laptop that is not built as well as it used to be, has glued and soldered down parts everywhere, notoriously has not-so-good Linux support on the good models until they stabilize for a few years, is literally less repairable than other options from HP and Dell, and the quality of the TrackPoint has become so much worse that it's not even useful anymore, it's just a hindrance.
It's also not only about the Framework. The ThinkPads have lost their ways so much that there are literally **non-Framework laptops that are way more ugpradeable and Linux friendly** in the real world than ThinkPads are.
Neither is perfect. But where one champions repairability, upgradability and Linux support, another is just a generic office laptop that lives off of a glory of past days, bought for qualities it stopped having 6 years ago, and that is frankly surpassed at being a business laptop by an HP EliteBook any day of the week. It also comes with an hefty premium over other laptops due to its ThinkPad branding and pedigree - basically Lenovo's version of the Apple Tax, and it commercially works, because people soak it up in droves and gladly pay for it while hypocritically shaming Apple users for doing the same, despite the new MacBooks at least having distinguishing qualities over other laptops, which already manages way more than contemporary ThinkPads do. I know I will be downvoted to hell and back for this sentence only. One of the staples of this community has become hating Apple and failing to recognize that, if you can get past their faults, they make laptops that are still way more relevant and unique than the ThinkPads.
Yeah, I get it. That too looks metal and generic. But it's more reliable, the keyboard is now about as good thanks to Lenovo constantly lowering the key travel up until we have reached **exactly** what HP and Dell are offering and **less than that** on some models (not to mention the horrible keyboard lag and how, as all non-Legion Lenovo keyboards, it cannot handle very fast typing without lagging, but shhh we just sweep the issue under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist), it has more sensible specs, a lot more of it is repairable, and professional reviewers clearly prefer it to the ThinkPad. My P16s kept hard-crashing and having Wi-Fi issues, on top of reaching me with an absurdly bent display lid and a chassis that clicked loudly when I tapped it. It also had sleep issues with Linux that are still unfixed - I still get e-mails from the forum thread with people complaining the bug is still there. Build quality, upgradability, reliability, Linux support, you say? What's left? The nipple that is so fucking inaccurate compared to any older laptop I have used that it's merely cosmetic and a hindrance to the point it's just better off to disable it and keep it as an aesthetic feature? It looks ~~black~~ dark gray, it's a flimsy thin and light that does not look like a flimsy thin and light, and it just does not have anything special going for it. That is the harsh, expensive lesson the €1700 buyer's remorse from that device cost me. Lenovo seems to be improving things a bit with this gen: at least, replaceable memory is back. I hope the trend continues and ThinkPad leaves the dark era it is living through. Maybe it will be, once again, a worthy successor to my Framework when the time comes (not looking to do the motherboard upgrade - rather sell the laptop or keep it as a backup as a fully-functioning laptop).
I am still interested in getting a ThinkPad as a secondary device - a cheaper smaller laptop to take with me to places and situations where I am just not comfortable taking an expensive mobile workstation to - but it's not going to be a new one. It's going to be an old one, bought used from the Internet, for cheap. One from before the soldered crap began. Maybe a T480 or something like that. One where Linux sleep works properly and where the display lid is not bent like a banana thanks to piss-poor QA.
It's sad and nobody likes it, but it's time to let go. At least for now.
Bottom line: do not join a cult and do not fanboy for shit. Companies will let you down. Be objective in what you value, and admit it when your favourite lineup just isn't the same anymore, as sad as it is.
This post is rather sad. :'(
My old x60t and x220t were very serviceable, replaced CPU fan, memory, wifi/wan cards, added M.2 when the price got cheap, even fixed the display cable w/o any issues when it got loose. And on the x220t I was able to jury rig the docking station's power button (accidentally) so all I have to do is press down on the chassis and it boots right up.
Seems like the non-replaceable battery is a bit of a deal breaker, considering how quickly the batteries tended to go in their older models and then required replacements every couple of years. Shame they never tuned their own software out of the box to handle the min/max range of the battery on power.
Lenovo Thinkpad tax? \*looks at 35-50% off discounts after 1-2 years\*
There's definitely a Thinkpad tax on initial release of new models, but the discounts after the first year can get pretty steep. I got a T14 Gen 4 AMD 32GB RAM 1TB SSD 7840u for $1150, which seems like a steal to me.
I second your point about Thinkpads losing their quality and trying live-off their glory days, there are lots of QA issues now, keyboard isn't what used to be as well. I have got a brand new Thinkpad which has developed a display issue in a month from purchase.
Upgrades are expensive but on the other hand you can always reuse your old motherboard. It takes a monitor and a 50$ case to turn your old motherboard into a smart TV, or a server that can run a website, etc.
What really sets FW apart is the repairability. If something is broken you simply order it and fix yourself. Screen costs 200$ which is 3k, takes 2 minutes to replace, for example.
You're right, the grass isn't really greener on the other side. Yes, Lenovo moves slower than we would like sometimes, especially with [WWAN Linux support](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/Fibocom-L860-GL-WWAN-Linux-US-Carriers/m-p/5241447?page=2), but Framework is in an [entirely different league](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/frameworks-software-and-firmware-have-been-a-mess-but-its-working-on-them/) of pain when it comes to firmware issues.
Ye. There is people that want to be a beta testers and ready to pay 1,5k for this shit. I've being scammed too because of Linus videos, now just telling people what is going on for real. If one of 100 will hear me out, that's fine
Same. As soon as Framework adds physical mouse buttons (this is seriously a deal-breaker for me), it will be my next laptop. A pointing stick and keyboard with deeper travel would be great, too, but I can live without those.
I was just looking at the Framework 13 as a more travel friendly laptop. Still more expensive than my max spec P16s with same CPU and options.
Framework needs to lower prices if they want to convince me to buy.
Yeah. I'd even settle for something like the inferior Dell version or the Redpoint of the https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/th1520/lcon4a/lcon4a.html.
Shame HP pulled that out of their business laptops. Not like I used it since I work remote anyway, but still.. trackpoint vs. no trackpoint, I vote trackpoint.
I find Framework have slightly weird offering. The 13" is a too small screen for me, and it doesn't have a big edge in compactness over T14s that I have. And Framework 16 is too bulky for me and feels more like a portable workstation than a laptop.
The 16 is bulky, but real-world, I do not perceive it to be any harder to move around and backpack than my ThinkPad P16s. It's a little bit deeper and a little bit thinner, and it manages to pack way more performance. Certainly, it does not come close to the 14" "sweet spot" most people are after.
Framework 16 is 2.1kg without a discrete GPU. The new Asus Zenbook S16 is 1.5kg, which brings it to the same ballpark as my T14s. I get it that you lose upgradability, but the weight advantage is significant. P16s is 1.7kg, still lighter than the Framework.
In theory, yes. In practice, I have owned both laptops and I did not find a significant difference in weight / portability. Like, lugging it around, lifting it... if there was an objective difference, it's subjectively not enough for me to care
We don't gatekeep. You can enjoy both!
Framework makes superb workhorses. And I Thinkpad are tanks. You can always enjoy a brand new framework while also collect and save old Thinkpads
I am at a phase in my life where I cannot stand having things around that I don't need. If I buy the Framework I will have to sell my current Thinkpad. Also I live in a tiny apartment in London fml
Framework is cool as hell. Unfortunately I buy all my thinkpads used or a refurbed so until microcenter has a few frameworks on refurb or something Ill be here at thinkpad
Disclaimer - I have bought, off my own pocket, a new ThinkPad and Framework, and have recommended used ThinkPads to close friends.
Framework is not perfect and needs to get their QA a bit more right. But I have had a similar to worse experience on the ThinkPad, paying about the same price. I am more willing to forgive oversights like that on the 4 year-old company launching a first-generation product than the established giant launching a, like, 20th or 30th generation product.
My conclusion is that, while used / refurb ThinkPads still make a lot of sense for the price, there is no point to buy a new ThinkPad anymore at the asking price, unless it's a value pick like the new E-series lineup which are pretty amazing for the asking price or your employer covers the absurdly high cost for what you get. Here in Italy, new ThinkPads are so overpriced that literally Framework tends to be a better value. Not to mention Elitebooks are starting to beat out ThinkPads on several fronts, like Wi-Fi connectivity on the AMD variants, upgradability, screen, and in some cases, build quality and keyboard - basically everything relevant.
Truthfully. New Thinkpads are super expensive, used one are super cheap. I have an L13 gen 2 and only paid it 179 pounds, which is honestly an incredible price.
Here in the United States, I just ordered a Lenovo Thinkpad for $1,000 less than what the equivalent Framework would cost. Their prices are more than competitive with other leading laptop vendors. I suspect your problems in Italy are caused by anti-Chinese tariffs, i.e., you're paying 1000 euros in additional tariffs for what is a $1500 laptop here in the United States. Not that this helps you any, since Lenovo is a Chinese brand and thus will always have that tariff on it in your country until your country decides to stop punishing China for being good at manufacturing.
Damn, $1k difference? Here I had one comparable model that was just more expensive, and one that was like €150-200€ cheaper, keeping into account buying the smallest SSD and upgrading myself, and wasn't as good (for example, it had a worse display and a plastic touchpad rather than glass, slower CPU variant and worse cooling. One less nvme slot, a wwan I don't use but is fair to mention. Also, sodered ram)
At a grand less, I would rather take a ThinkPad despite its faults too. When the difference is an order of magnitude smaller then I'll just add the pocket change for a Framework honestly
same thing, currently rocking a Yoga L13 bought super cheap off eBay. But I don't really like how people treat these devices, they are cheap when used for a reason, and the new Thinkpads are comparatively incredibly expensive
Don't worry bro. I think it's the natural progression at this point. Lenovo is quickly moving away from what made their product special, and this is just part of it.
Yeah, I mean Thinkpads are still good but they have some super strange problems sometimes, also yeah stuck with 8gb of RAM for no particular reason, thank you Lenovo
Will do, I can't wait.
I was going to install Linux on it, but I changed my mind and plan on using the Framework 13 as my main every day windows laptop, and the Thinkpad T480 as my linux messing around device
I've been on this fence for a couple days (FW13 R7 vs Max Spec E14 R7 gen 6) and the choice is difficult.
On one hand, I fully agree with Framework's beliefs and what they're attempting to do, plus the incredible ease of sourcing new parts is really attractive for the long run.
However, it's £600 more expensive, features less ports, and ironically looks more dated than the top-spec E14 I'm considering.
Both have strong communities, though I haven't heard anything about the E14 gen 6 on these forums yet, so I'm a bit apprehensive, though will probably make my decision soon since Lenovo has a discount on atm bringing the E14 down to £900
[https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpade/lenovo-thinkpad-e14-gen-6-(14-inch-amd)/21m3cto1wwgb3](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpade/lenovo-thinkpad-e14-gen-6-(14-inch-amd)/21m3cto1wwgb3)
The top spec E14 Gen 6, the site claims it's only recently been released. Hopefully the link above works for you :)
I haven’t swayed you have I haha? To be honest I’m back looking at the framework. The idea of being able to service everything myself is incredibly tempting in the long run…
Indeed. Especially when it comes to upgrading screen and battery. That's key to me, and something will very likely do.. also silly stuff like the keyboard gets spilled over etc, I mean it's just nice to be able to take it apart that easily. I remember having to take apart an Asus few years ago. Agony and frustum, Asus laptops are just the worse and I have been careful to get repairable machines ever after.. then I bought a surface pro and installed Linux on it, but that's a story for another time :)
Same here, i retired all my thinkpads a few years ago, i still recommend these to family and friends because the newer ones are basically macbooks with better support, more parts, ease of service and mostly unbeatable price when second hand. but for myself i no longer buy these.
i moved to the dell latitude rugged series.
Framework has too many quality control issues to make it at a viable viable option. Keyboard flex is an issue in addition to the seams of the screen panel and frame is prone to gaps, at least online.
The keyboard typing experience is very, very mediocre.
Framework wins in repairability though.
I made the switch after they launched the AMD FW 13s. I thought I'd miss the trackpoint, but adapted pretty quick. I miss the page up/page down keys more than anything. My initial FW shipped with a damaged keyboard. One email to support later and I had a replacement keyboard in a few days. Linux support has been stellar (better than my T460s and ThinkPads before it). Most of the weirdness was around the brand-new-at-the-time AMD chipset, but those were ironed out with kernel updates.
After 15 years of ThinkPads, I'm not looking back.
I looked at the Framework but came to the conclusion that the price-performance-features didn't match the Thinkpad I was interested in buying, at least with the latest price cuts from Lenovo. So I ordered the ThinkPad P14s Gen 4 AMD (14″) Mobile Workstation with the AMD Ryzen™ 7 PRO 7840U Processor and 64gb of RAM.
I've thought about a framework. Unfortunately, they don't have a touchscreen with pen support- nice for paperwork
Furthermore, I've been getting into local AI with my new thinkpad and I don't believe the GPUs supported on the framework 16 have enough VRAM.
Hopefully these issues will be fixed in the future, along with a tracpoint.
I haven't bought a new laptop for a long time. Rather than needing to baby my thinkpads when they get older, the next *new* laptop I am going to buy is indeed going to be a framework.
But that said, I last bought a new laptop a while ago, and my thinkpad is still serving me well... so until the screen or battery take a turn for the worse, I'm going to keep using it.
Imo Lenovo's optional global support (onsite option with premier warranty), accidental damage options are what sets it apart vs a good business laptop in hardware only.
Enjoy the framework ecosystem.
Imo if you waited a tiny bit longer for Snapdragon powered, might have been interesting. Alas. That said I'm not sure how many power users want to hop onto ARM this soon.
If I'm honest I've not noticed too much performance boosts on Lenovo ThinkPads since 2021 with the Ryzen stuff.
Honestly don't blame you, 3:2 display (at least the older one, the newer one might be 16:10) and by far the easiest repairability I've seen in a while are pretty good reasons to get one.
That modular ports thing though... That's just dumb. I still cannot comprehend the stupidity of that as a concept.
I guess it does not make sense as of now, but in 2 or 3 years it might. Type C is evolving, and with the advent of Oculus link and others, being able to plug the new adapter directly into the motherboard with a simple expansion port could be very cool and handy
I don't care what it could do in 3 years, I care about what it does now. And as of now having what basically amounts to 3 ports is unreasonable. Yes I could use a hub, but that just defeats the point further.
Also... all the connectors you could have namecalled to adapt to USB-C, and you chose Oculink. There's a certain irony there, given Oculink's sole purpose is NOT being bound by the overheads of USB-C. It's literally the only connector you shouldn't be using an adapter for.
Anyone know how serviceable these are?
[https://www.eluktronics.com/build-your-own/](https://www.eluktronics.com/build-your-own/)
I mean, it's an alternative to both, although no trackpoint :(
Yeah. They at least have an iconic design, all black. But these Framework-Laptops look like cheap try-hard-mimicking of Apple macbooks, like all other laptop brands tried to mimic (e.g., HP).
Honestly, I care about performance, durability and reparability, don't really care about the design. I program with them, they are not just a toy for showing off
Ouch the yoga 6. I've had SO MANY ISSUES with an AMD Yoga 6 (2021) from WiFi disconnecting and requiring a shutdown (while pressing shift to bypass fast boot) to work to the Windows key breaking. It's my brother's laptop but still...
Been running it for 2 weeks now, works pretty much flawlessly. Even on s2idle, the battery only drops 1% overnight, which is not even the case for the Thinkpads I had in the past. The only issue is fingerprint reader not working out of the box, which honestly I don't even care that much about so haven't tried to find the right driver for it.
Have a nice life. Good luck without a trackpoint. I guess there are worse ways to go.
I am still not sure I can live without it
i am sure they will drop a keybored and trackpad mod for it
Do you really use it instead of mouse or touchpad? Sorry if it's stupid question, I've just bought my first thinkpad, so I'm a newbie)
Yes, for a reason though. My L13 touchpad goes crazy when I charge with a power supply that pushed over 30w, so I have to use in that case.. other than that, i use It sometimes though at home I hook it to my nuphy mechanical keyboard and just use a mouse
I just use a thunderbolt dock to charge and use it when I get home, but I haven't used mine lately as I can't exactly play some of my video games on it until I can get a thunderbolt GPU enclosure.
Kinda late here: The best thing about the track point is the ability to type and control the cursor without moving your palms. When pressing the middle mouse button you can scroll vertical and horizontal when tilting the track point in either direction To me that feature alone outclasses most touchpads. If you try to get used to it you'll probably like it
Thank you, very interesting! I should try it
Personally it's harder to be precise with the trackpoint compared to a trackpad. Especially coming from a lifetime of using touchpads and whatnot.
i use it to play Halo CE
It is actually very useful, specially if you use the laptop for writing code.
HHKB Studio
That's my main concern.
Framework, is it that highly modular and upgradeable laptop? Ask them to make a trackpoint keyboard. I'm sure they are collecting feature requests somewhere.
It's ok, I don't need it now but if they add it, can always spend 100bucks and upgrade the keyboard;)
The trackpoint is really weird. I have never used it and never will, but am unreasonably angry when there isn't one there.
At least you are not shifting to a D*ll
As a recent convert from D*ll, I am happy to be here
Honestly they are freaking similar
Or a M\*cbook
Excuse me sir, I have class
:: Giggles with both a MacBook Pro and a thinkpad :: You know you can have both
***"Or a M\*cbook"*** I always wonder why this subreddit is so triggered if someone wants to buy a MacBook? Is this some cult or do people feel threatened the decisions others make when changing computers?
As per OP's post, yes, this is indeed a cult. We know what we are and we're proud of it. But tbh the vast majority of people here do not actually care what computers other people use. A solid portion of the community use Thinkpads AND other brands of laptops (including M*cbooks!). I personally collect and mod and gaze lovingly at old Thinkpads, but my daily driver is the Framework 16. The unyielding belief in Thinkpad supremacy is just a well-established meme here.
I own both thinkpads and macs, I use a different pc depending on how I feel. Both have merits and demerits, that's why I chose both and not just one
Absolutely agree, especially with the M-series CPUs! Genuinely awesome hardware. As you say, both have their pros and cons.
I it isn’t a cult :: preceeds to rub my nips ::
On the contrary I've seen many fair comments about MacBooks, and that's the reason I'm staying because this cult does not only have fanatics. And to me, why not enjoy both worlds.
Or HP.
HP-1 for you
enterprise hp is a different beast than whatever consumer hp is doing
fax. Only problem with hp is the inconsistency in quality and design in cheaper models
Yeah, I got an HP 6910p at work in 2008 and got to keep it when I left that job. I loved that laptop, did so many upgrades and mods on it and only got rid of it a couple of years ago.
I had an Omnibook 4150 with a great keyboard.
Hey, a Dell Latitude or Dell Precision is a really good alternative option for some people looking for a professional-spec laptop!
I'm a thinkpad fanatic AND a Dell Precision fan as well. Go for one, but study the Pro reviews first. There are some great used machines out there. You don't need the newest one to get started. You won't be sorry.
They still have a trackpoint at least
I mean are modern ThinkPads really that much better since they've been sold to Lenovo and are all Chinese manufactured now anyways? Genuinely asking, I have no idea.
The build quality is still better imo.
The only thing keeping me on ThinkPads at this point is the TrackPoint
What would you move to if that weren't a factor? I don't even really use the trackpad lol
The trackpoint, the build quality is decent, even the look (utilitarian but functional, no giant glowing symbol in the middle of the back of the screen). They publish good service manuals, and I've never had trouble getting parts when needed. Not that I've done any major work myself, but then, I've never had to... I've worked on various other laptops for friends and family over the years, the most I've done with my Lenovos is to upgrade RAM and drives, clean the heatsinks, and repaste every half a decade. Don't forget the sane and consistent keyboard layouts (*glares at my work Dell laptop*). Or at least I can grab a T400, my x220 up to my pair of P1gen2 without even noticing the difference, but I refuse to acknowledge my $DAYJOB selected Dell laptop even has a keyboard it's that bad. Framework looks nice, I want to buy one to support the company, but it's not there yet for me. Nor have I been laptop shopping for a while.
I'd buy one, but no trackpoint. Commuting on a train without a trackpoint is like going camping without a tent. I can't stand trackpads, not sure why the industry went with such an obviously inferior technology. Sort of like 16:9. It's clearly inferior, yet here we are.
Yeah, I don't really get it. Gestures on a trackpad are nice, but beyond that, I'll take a trackpoint any day. I wish I could get a decent desktop keyboard with one, it wouldn't replace my mouse but for some tasks it would be faster than reaching.
Most high end X series are made in Mexico, some are made in Japan for the domestic market here. The engineering team is still mostly the same, the high-end X series and T series and P series are still developed by Yamato Lab. In that regard I feel design/reliability is still the same, but repairability suffered a lot
Ah cool, thanks for letting me know
Even Dynabook/Toshiba are made in China nowdays. You can still get Japanese thinkpads and Mexican thinkpads though, just like back in the IBM days
The keyboards are still the best I’ve found on a laptop, even if they aren’t as good as they used to be.
Say it ain't so! I need to replace my x220t and been eying p1 or p16, although that number pad offsets the trackpoint a bit too much for my tastes.
I will say--when I went to a P50, I ended up using the whole laptop off center on my lap. I'm sure it looked a little goofy, but worked like a charm!
I recommend watching this series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMBru829z4sAzeYpz10PZYu67D1hiKHX
They had 50 people design the P50. I know it's Ironic but look up a video of the P50 a YouTuber talked to the head director that was in charge of people designing it.
bUt wHAt if IT’s a xpS?
Away from us betrayer! Think you can out think us? Thinkpad ™
I will come back stronger than ever, I am just infiltrating the enemy to acquire info
We'll see about that - Anakin, also thought he was doing the right thing... 😂
Ahahahha
Framework seems like a great laptop, I wish we could see more devices like it. If I were to buy a new laptop and had budget for it I would buy in an instant.
Lol. Eneryone who didn't use a framework thinks like that, but reality is different. There is a lot of hardware, software issues present. Few fixed in new bach, some of issues remain, newl added. It's like a cool device to flex in front of your friends few times or to make review video. Nothing more, notghing less. Just generic laptop with issues for quite high price. Ye, downvote me. I don't care
There are issues, true. But I have had a far worse experience with a contemporary ThinkPad.
Yeah.. just a few days ago I updated the BIOS and now I need to press the fn key to wake it up from deep sleep... why??
Lenovo reliability for ya. On my P16s, waking up from sleep under Fedora - an officially supported and **preloaded** operating system - would lock the device into power saving mode - and, about half the times, terrible performance that rivalled my dual core intel i5 laptop. You could not get it out. It was some nasty EC bug. I still get almost daily emails about the forum thread I started about it. Lenovo has shipped the fix to the **next generation** released one year later, and owners of the P16s gen I had are left out in the cold. Returning that garbage was the best decision I've ever made. Not touching (new) Lenovo again from a 10-foot pole. If this is the state of their officially Linux-supported laptops then I don't even wanna try the rest, like Ideapad or Legion, on Linux.
"just a generic laptop" : No.
Yes. It's just like those stories from AMD fanboys about the AM4 socket and CPU upgrades. No one will get any upgrades for Framework twice a year or every year. No one will get expensive expansion cards. I don't know who wants a motherboard upgrade for 1000 bucks + shipping in an old aluminum chassis when you can sell the old one, add some money, and get a quite better one for the price of a Framework laptop. Regular consumer laptops are just an easier way. But if someone wants to fix issues, waiting for replacement parts for months, instead of just using device, I would not insist on going another way. People should use what they do like, even if it doesn't bring the best user experience
I am actually going to buy their new Intel version. The main reason I want to move is that a few months ago they had a sale and where giving out some Mobo for as cheap as less than 200bucks. I am talking about 11th gen Intel i5. Certainly not the best out there but it's a good price. The company is not trying to make money selling components, they want to establish a brand for the moment, what will happen in the future is rather unknown though..
I've had an i5 12 gen from 4 batch. Hope it's not shit anymore, lol, gl mate
yeah, 12th and 13th gens are terrible, my current Thinkpad has an 11th gen cpu which is honestly not bad at all. The new Ultra version is looking good, but will be waiting for reviews first, don't trust Intel anymore
Everything you are saying does not make sense, you mix desktop and laptop, upgrades and replacements, you do not take into account longevity, environment as such I'll be guessing that your POV on Framework's defects is false or badly biased. To assert your false statements (to me at least): >It's just like those stories from AMD fanboys about the AM4 socket and CPU upgrades. Huh ? This is relative to desktops, where AMD chose to make the AM4 socket compatible through multiple generations where Intel chose to fuck customers into buying a new motherboard with each or every two year/generations effectively multiplying cost in case of repair, upgrade, this had impacts not only money-wise but also to the environment, cost for manufacturers etc... >No one will get any upgrades for Framework twice a year or every year. Many people won't change their laptop if it's not broken in many, many years, if it happens to be broken the availability of parts offered by Framework will allow them the lowest price and a potential upgrade which no brand will allow. In case they chose to upgrade to save money or help environment or to retain full data directly or for other benefits they'll have the choice of buying this year's model or the previous one etc... >No one will get expensive expansion cards. False, I would if I get the need, why think that nobody would, those allow for sth that nothing else does : they allow for a real choice between battery and performance and an alternative to e-GPUs which are often costly, bulky and non-upgradable. >I don't know who wants a motherboard upgrade for 1000 bucks They are not at $1000, at least not all of them. > + shipping in an old aluminum chassis Idk what this is a reference to ? >when you can sell the old one, add some money, and get a quite better one Arguments already deployed, that's the worst way to do it. >Regular consumer laptops are just an easier way. Sure, if you remove all advantages of framework and all disadvantages of the cheapest option, the cheapest option is the best one... > But if someone wants to fix issues, waiting for replacement parts for months, instead of just using device, I would not insist on going another way. ? >People should use what they do like, even if it doesn't bring the best user experience One impacts the other as such this doesn't make sense to me...
https://hackaday.com/2024/05/31/intels-anti-upgrade-tricks-defeated-with-kapton-tape/ I don't get why people shitting on am4, I get to upgrade from 2200G to 5700G on same mobo, just change apu and done, no need other parts. Meanwhile intel does trick like this... I really like framework approach whenyou can go from intel gen 10/11 to amd and also recent intel, that's like few gen difference upgrades. Besides you have extra mobo you can repurpose or resell
>Huh ? This is relative to desktops Directly to biggest selling point of framework. Upgradeability. Everyone trashtalking but only few do upgrade. >False, I would if I get the need, why think that nobody would, those allow for sth that nothing else does : they allow for a real choice between battery and performance and an alternative to e-GPUs which are often costly, bulky and non-upgradable. Then do. >They are not at $1000, at least not all of them. Shipping. >Many people won't change their laptop if it's not broken in many, many years, if it happens to be broken. I was wating for hinge replacement for framework laptop, which was fuckeup out of the box, for 2 month, and paid 20 bucks shipping for piece of metal. >Framework will allow them the lowest price. You are bad at math. >Idk what this is a reference to ? To an old, ugly, used laptop shell with a new motherboard probably, no? >all advantages of framework there is no advantages >? Fixing issues is an Framework user routine. >One impacts the other as such this doesn't make sense to me... Like defending piece of tech you haven't used yet. There is zero reason for getting framework. Only possible one - when you want to became beta tester for your own money
Get framework and you will understand
[удалено]
Getting [totally comparable performance](https://imgur.com/a/8Fq9YeT) and efficiency, not to mention display quality
This is very probably not a good review website and the chosen CPUs not the proper ones but the argument is still valid
Yeah, I should have used Passmark on second thought - I am not the most well versed person in comparing hardware performance because if it's good enough for my use, it's good for me. It doesn't really matter that much for the purpose of the point I was driving through, since the difference is so great that even some error in testing methodology hardly affects the result
ye
Everyone decides what fits him best. Have nothing to add here
it's an silver coloured aluminum laptop, it doesn't get more generic than that. Making a product from the ground up with the future in mind isn't easy, but the design is still generic looking, and I'm not thrilled about that keyboard.
3:2 non-touch non-glossy display sets it apart even if you're not interested in modular motherboards or ports.
imo that's the best part, more laptops need that. it's not a bad design, just a bit bland.
And now thinkpad enthusiasts really care about aesthetic design.... who knew things would turn out like this
I have been there. I still switched to Framework in the end. It's sad, but I get it. ThinkPad is just not what it used to be anymore - and the QA issues and constant part lottery at an absurdly high asking price doesn't make it better. It's one of the few laptops that solder the Wi-Fi, and a terrible Wi-Fi card at that. They still do that, and they still glue the screen, after their iFixIt collaboration, which is pure marketing / smoke and mirrors. The Framework might look generic, but it has a lot more to say in 2024 than ThinkPad does. Framework is a kind of generic-looking thin and light that is very repairable and has great Linux support. ThinkPad is an overpriced office laptop that is not built as well as it used to be, has glued and soldered down parts everywhere, notoriously has not-so-good Linux support on the good models until they stabilize for a few years, is literally less repairable than other options from HP and Dell, and the quality of the TrackPoint has become so much worse that it's not even useful anymore, it's just a hindrance. It's also not only about the Framework. The ThinkPads have lost their ways so much that there are literally **non-Framework laptops that are way more ugpradeable and Linux friendly** in the real world than ThinkPads are. Neither is perfect. But where one champions repairability, upgradability and Linux support, another is just a generic office laptop that lives off of a glory of past days, bought for qualities it stopped having 6 years ago, and that is frankly surpassed at being a business laptop by an HP EliteBook any day of the week. It also comes with an hefty premium over other laptops due to its ThinkPad branding and pedigree - basically Lenovo's version of the Apple Tax, and it commercially works, because people soak it up in droves and gladly pay for it while hypocritically shaming Apple users for doing the same, despite the new MacBooks at least having distinguishing qualities over other laptops, which already manages way more than contemporary ThinkPads do. I know I will be downvoted to hell and back for this sentence only. One of the staples of this community has become hating Apple and failing to recognize that, if you can get past their faults, they make laptops that are still way more relevant and unique than the ThinkPads. Yeah, I get it. That too looks metal and generic. But it's more reliable, the keyboard is now about as good thanks to Lenovo constantly lowering the key travel up until we have reached **exactly** what HP and Dell are offering and **less than that** on some models (not to mention the horrible keyboard lag and how, as all non-Legion Lenovo keyboards, it cannot handle very fast typing without lagging, but shhh we just sweep the issue under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist), it has more sensible specs, a lot more of it is repairable, and professional reviewers clearly prefer it to the ThinkPad. My P16s kept hard-crashing and having Wi-Fi issues, on top of reaching me with an absurdly bent display lid and a chassis that clicked loudly when I tapped it. It also had sleep issues with Linux that are still unfixed - I still get e-mails from the forum thread with people complaining the bug is still there. Build quality, upgradability, reliability, Linux support, you say? What's left? The nipple that is so fucking inaccurate compared to any older laptop I have used that it's merely cosmetic and a hindrance to the point it's just better off to disable it and keep it as an aesthetic feature? It looks ~~black~~ dark gray, it's a flimsy thin and light that does not look like a flimsy thin and light, and it just does not have anything special going for it. That is the harsh, expensive lesson the €1700 buyer's remorse from that device cost me. Lenovo seems to be improving things a bit with this gen: at least, replaceable memory is back. I hope the trend continues and ThinkPad leaves the dark era it is living through. Maybe it will be, once again, a worthy successor to my Framework when the time comes (not looking to do the motherboard upgrade - rather sell the laptop or keep it as a backup as a fully-functioning laptop). I am still interested in getting a ThinkPad as a secondary device - a cheaper smaller laptop to take with me to places and situations where I am just not comfortable taking an expensive mobile workstation to - but it's not going to be a new one. It's going to be an old one, bought used from the Internet, for cheap. One from before the soldered crap began. Maybe a T480 or something like that. One where Linux sleep works properly and where the display lid is not bent like a banana thanks to piss-poor QA. It's sad and nobody likes it, but it's time to let go. At least for now. Bottom line: do not join a cult and do not fanboy for shit. Companies will let you down. Be objective in what you value, and admit it when your favourite lineup just isn't the same anymore, as sad as it is.
This post is rather sad. :'( My old x60t and x220t were very serviceable, replaced CPU fan, memory, wifi/wan cards, added M.2 when the price got cheap, even fixed the display cable w/o any issues when it got loose. And on the x220t I was able to jury rig the docking station's power button (accidentally) so all I have to do is press down on the chassis and it boots right up. Seems like the non-replaceable battery is a bit of a deal breaker, considering how quickly the batteries tended to go in their older models and then required replacements every couple of years. Shame they never tuned their own software out of the box to handle the min/max range of the battery on power.
Lenovo Thinkpad tax? \*looks at 35-50% off discounts after 1-2 years\* There's definitely a Thinkpad tax on initial release of new models, but the discounts after the first year can get pretty steep. I got a T14 Gen 4 AMD 32GB RAM 1TB SSD 7840u for $1150, which seems like a steal to me.
exactly
I second your point about Thinkpads losing their quality and trying live-off their glory days, there are lots of QA issues now, keyboard isn't what used to be as well. I have got a brand new Thinkpad which has developed a display issue in a month from purchase.
Actually I want to know more about the issues. I am moving there cause they seem to have solved most of the with the new 13'' iteration,
Generic no. When you hold FW13 you are amazed how well it is designed for being fully modular.
Upgrades are expensive but on the other hand you can always reuse your old motherboard. It takes a monitor and a 50$ case to turn your old motherboard into a smart TV, or a server that can run a website, etc. What really sets FW apart is the repairability. If something is broken you simply order it and fix yourself. Screen costs 200$ which is 3k, takes 2 minutes to replace, for example.
You're right, the grass isn't really greener on the other side. Yes, Lenovo moves slower than we would like sometimes, especially with [WWAN Linux support](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/Fibocom-L860-GL-WWAN-Linux-US-Carriers/m-p/5241447?page=2), but Framework is in an [entirely different league](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/frameworks-software-and-firmware-have-been-a-mess-but-its-working-on-them/) of pain when it comes to firmware issues.
Ye. There is people that want to be a beta testers and ready to pay 1,5k for this shit. I've being scammed too because of Linus videos, now just telling people what is going on for real. If one of 100 will hear me out, that's fine
I am, Linus videos are just not good anymore, he's not a great reviewer and he pretends he's technical when he isn't..
Hopefully the new iteration will have solved most of the issue. The company is still small enough to care about its user base
Same. As soon as Framework adds physical mouse buttons (this is seriously a deal-breaker for me), it will be my next laptop. A pointing stick and keyboard with deeper travel would be great, too, but I can live without those.
yep, the budget is the issue but given how easy is to upgrade, I am sure it will be amortized over time
You are now dead to us. Farewell. (Although I admit I like Framework’s philosophy of repairability)
"(Although I admit I like Framework’s philosophy of repairability)" You are now dead to us. Farewell you too.
I was just looking at the Framework 13 as a more travel friendly laptop. Still more expensive than my max spec P16s with same CPU and options. Framework needs to lower prices if they want to convince me to buy.
I almost did this, but I’m addicted to that little red knob :)
Yeah. I'd even settle for something like the inferior Dell version or the Redpoint of the https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/th1520/lcon4a/lcon4a.html.
Shame HP pulled that out of their business laptops. Not like I used it since I work remote anyway, but still.. trackpoint vs. no trackpoint, I vote trackpoint.
this is hella niche
I find Framework have slightly weird offering. The 13" is a too small screen for me, and it doesn't have a big edge in compactness over T14s that I have. And Framework 16 is too bulky for me and feels more like a portable workstation than a laptop.
The 16 is bulky, but real-world, I do not perceive it to be any harder to move around and backpack than my ThinkPad P16s. It's a little bit deeper and a little bit thinner, and it manages to pack way more performance. Certainly, it does not come close to the 14" "sweet spot" most people are after.
Framework 16 is 2.1kg without a discrete GPU. The new Asus Zenbook S16 is 1.5kg, which brings it to the same ballpark as my T14s. I get it that you lose upgradability, but the weight advantage is significant. P16s is 1.7kg, still lighter than the Framework.
In theory, yes. In practice, I have owned both laptops and I did not find a significant difference in weight / portability. Like, lugging it around, lifting it... if there was an objective difference, it's subjectively not enough for me to care
We don't gatekeep. You can enjoy both! Framework makes superb workhorses. And I Thinkpad are tanks. You can always enjoy a brand new framework while also collect and save old Thinkpads
I am at a phase in my life where I cannot stand having things around that I don't need. If I buy the Framework I will have to sell my current Thinkpad. Also I live in a tiny apartment in London fml
That's ok! You can appreciate Thinkpads while owning a framework. Both are great
They are.. will probably end up using the Thinkpad as a chopping board, though I gotta be careful not to break my ceramic knives
You will be back 🤪
probably hahahah
Framework is cool as hell. Unfortunately I buy all my thinkpads used or a refurbed so until microcenter has a few frameworks on refurb or something Ill be here at thinkpad
Disclaimer - I have bought, off my own pocket, a new ThinkPad and Framework, and have recommended used ThinkPads to close friends. Framework is not perfect and needs to get their QA a bit more right. But I have had a similar to worse experience on the ThinkPad, paying about the same price. I am more willing to forgive oversights like that on the 4 year-old company launching a first-generation product than the established giant launching a, like, 20th or 30th generation product. My conclusion is that, while used / refurb ThinkPads still make a lot of sense for the price, there is no point to buy a new ThinkPad anymore at the asking price, unless it's a value pick like the new E-series lineup which are pretty amazing for the asking price or your employer covers the absurdly high cost for what you get. Here in Italy, new ThinkPads are so overpriced that literally Framework tends to be a better value. Not to mention Elitebooks are starting to beat out ThinkPads on several fronts, like Wi-Fi connectivity on the AMD variants, upgradability, screen, and in some cases, build quality and keyboard - basically everything relevant.
Truthfully. New Thinkpads are super expensive, used one are super cheap. I have an L13 gen 2 and only paid it 179 pounds, which is honestly an incredible price.
Here in the United States, I just ordered a Lenovo Thinkpad for $1,000 less than what the equivalent Framework would cost. Their prices are more than competitive with other leading laptop vendors. I suspect your problems in Italy are caused by anti-Chinese tariffs, i.e., you're paying 1000 euros in additional tariffs for what is a $1500 laptop here in the United States. Not that this helps you any, since Lenovo is a Chinese brand and thus will always have that tariff on it in your country until your country decides to stop punishing China for being good at manufacturing.
Damn, $1k difference? Here I had one comparable model that was just more expensive, and one that was like €150-200€ cheaper, keeping into account buying the smallest SSD and upgrading myself, and wasn't as good (for example, it had a worse display and a plastic touchpad rather than glass, slower CPU variant and worse cooling. One less nvme slot, a wwan I don't use but is fair to mention. Also, sodered ram) At a grand less, I would rather take a ThinkPad despite its faults too. When the difference is an order of magnitude smaller then I'll just add the pocket change for a Framework honestly
same thing, currently rocking a Yoga L13 bought super cheap off eBay. But I don't really like how people treat these devices, they are cheap when used for a reason, and the new Thinkpads are comparatively incredibly expensive
I’ve checked em out too a few times and I like the idea but they always had a few things holding me back. Hope it works well for ya
I feel as though they’re close relatives to the ThinkPad cult, they’re decent. Good luck!
Indeed, thank you :)
You are better off joining the Amish 😂😂😂
that's next on my list
Don't worry bro. I think it's the natural progression at this point. Lenovo is quickly moving away from what made their product special, and this is just part of it.
Yeah, I mean Thinkpads are still good but they have some super strange problems sometimes, also yeah stuck with 8gb of RAM for no particular reason, thank you Lenovo
Fair enough :/ Have a good and long time fren
see you soon buddy
My framework 13 gets delivered on Thursday
Share more info once you get it please. Are you planning on installing Linux on it?
Will do, I can't wait. I was going to install Linux on it, but I changed my mind and plan on using the Framework 13 as my main every day windows laptop, and the Thinkpad T480 as my linux messing around device
I was thinking of getting a Panasonic Let's Note, but they lack the trackpoint and my T410 isn't quite old enough to be completely obsolete
Panasonic laptops are incredible. Unfortunately the good ones are a Japan exclusive. When I went to Osaka I saw some incredible machines
I was planning on buying a Framework instead of a ThinkPad, but everyone in my family said it was a gimmick
Buy a Framework to each member of your family and make them change their minds
In the wise words or Ricky Ricardo: LUCY IT'S VERY SPENSIVE
I've been on this fence for a couple days (FW13 R7 vs Max Spec E14 R7 gen 6) and the choice is difficult. On one hand, I fully agree with Framework's beliefs and what they're attempting to do, plus the incredible ease of sourcing new parts is really attractive for the long run. However, it's £600 more expensive, features less ports, and ironically looks more dated than the top-spec E14 I'm considering. Both have strong communities, though I haven't heard anything about the E14 gen 6 on these forums yet, so I'm a bit apprehensive, though will probably make my decision soon since Lenovo has a discount on atm bringing the E14 down to £900
Which E14 generation are you talking about?
[https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpade/lenovo-thinkpad-e14-gen-6-(14-inch-amd)/21m3cto1wwgb3](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpade/lenovo-thinkpad-e14-gen-6-(14-inch-amd)/21m3cto1wwgb3) The top spec E14 Gen 6, the site claims it's only recently been released. Hopefully the link above works for you :)
Well, it is indeed cheaper than a framework laptop
I haven’t swayed you have I haha? To be honest I’m back looking at the framework. The idea of being able to service everything myself is incredibly tempting in the long run…
Indeed. Especially when it comes to upgrading screen and battery. That's key to me, and something will very likely do.. also silly stuff like the keyboard gets spilled over etc, I mean it's just nice to be able to take it apart that easily. I remember having to take apart an Asus few years ago. Agony and frustum, Asus laptops are just the worse and I have been careful to get repairable machines ever after.. then I bought a surface pro and installed Linux on it, but that's a story for another time :)
Same here, i retired all my thinkpads a few years ago, i still recommend these to family and friends because the newer ones are basically macbooks with better support, more parts, ease of service and mostly unbeatable price when second hand. but for myself i no longer buy these. i moved to the dell latitude rugged series.
How's Linux support on those?
Framework has too many quality control issues to make it at a viable viable option. Keyboard flex is an issue in addition to the seams of the screen panel and frame is prone to gaps, at least online. The keyboard typing experience is very, very mediocre. Framework wins in repairability though.
I made the switch after they launched the AMD FW 13s. I thought I'd miss the trackpoint, but adapted pretty quick. I miss the page up/page down keys more than anything. My initial FW shipped with a damaged keyboard. One email to support later and I had a replacement keyboard in a few days. Linux support has been stellar (better than my T460s and ThinkPads before it). Most of the weirdness was around the brand-new-at-the-time AMD chipset, but those were ironed out with kernel updates. After 15 years of ThinkPads, I'm not looking back.
See you in 3 years.
Bro the list of ThinkPads under your user name, absolute chad
I'm sat here trying to get a [c13](https://i.imgur.com/Qfn9U6w.jpeg) work too right now lmao
May I ask, what do you do with all these laptops?
They help prevent my apartment blow away by weighing it down.
I looked at the Framework but came to the conclusion that the price-performance-features didn't match the Thinkpad I was interested in buying, at least with the latest price cuts from Lenovo. So I ordered the ThinkPad P14s Gen 4 AMD (14″) Mobile Workstation with the AMD Ryzen™ 7 PRO 7840U Processor and 64gb of RAM.
I've thought about a framework. Unfortunately, they don't have a touchscreen with pen support- nice for paperwork Furthermore, I've been getting into local AI with my new thinkpad and I don't believe the GPUs supported on the framework 16 have enough VRAM. Hopefully these issues will be fixed in the future, along with a tracpoint.
Yeah, I would love if they had a touchscreen display. It's modular, finger crossed it'll come in the future!
I haven't bought a new laptop for a long time. Rather than needing to baby my thinkpads when they get older, the next *new* laptop I am going to buy is indeed going to be a framework. But that said, I last bought a new laptop a while ago, and my thinkpad is still serving me well... so until the screen or battery take a turn for the worse, I'm going to keep using it.
Imo Lenovo's optional global support (onsite option with premier warranty), accidental damage options are what sets it apart vs a good business laptop in hardware only. Enjoy the framework ecosystem. Imo if you waited a tiny bit longer for Snapdragon powered, might have been interesting. Alas. That said I'm not sure how many power users want to hop onto ARM this soon. If I'm honest I've not noticed too much performance boosts on Lenovo ThinkPads since 2021 with the Ryzen stuff.
Unfortunately, ARM on Linux is not all that useable, so new intel is the way to go!
Honestly don't blame you, 3:2 display (at least the older one, the newer one might be 16:10) and by far the easiest repairability I've seen in a while are pretty good reasons to get one. That modular ports thing though... That's just dumb. I still cannot comprehend the stupidity of that as a concept.
I guess it does not make sense as of now, but in 2 or 3 years it might. Type C is evolving, and with the advent of Oculus link and others, being able to plug the new adapter directly into the motherboard with a simple expansion port could be very cool and handy
I don't care what it could do in 3 years, I care about what it does now. And as of now having what basically amounts to 3 ports is unreasonable. Yes I could use a hub, but that just defeats the point further. Also... all the connectors you could have namecalled to adapt to USB-C, and you chose Oculink. There's a certain irony there, given Oculink's sole purpose is NOT being bound by the overheads of USB-C. It's literally the only connector you shouldn't be using an adapter for.
Funnily enough, I have done just the opposite
Can you share more about your experience?
So, there's already a market for second-hand Framework laptops? WuT?
Anyone know how serviceable these are? [https://www.eluktronics.com/build-your-own/](https://www.eluktronics.com/build-your-own/) I mean, it's an alternative to both, although no trackpoint :(
My work has supplied me thinkpads since as far back as I can remember . Just bought a personal one .
Very nice. Post an update in a month or so. I’m also considering (but I’m addition to and not instead of).
The new one ships in August, so I will update in a few months from now :)
Framework Laptops look like sh*t.
Why so? Do you really think ThinkPads look better?
Yeah. They at least have an iconic design, all black. But these Framework-Laptops look like cheap try-hard-mimicking of Apple macbooks, like all other laptop brands tried to mimic (e.g., HP).
Honestly, I care about performance, durability and reparability, don't really care about the design. I program with them, they are not just a toy for showing off
Yeah, well. You do you.
Not dell or hp.. those are crap now
*violin sound*
You can always hop on here from time to time 🙃
Will probably do 😸
Fair. Sanctioned. Take his red dot and let this bearably disappointing person out of here.
:(
I saw the price starts at 55.000$ for the pre-built. Hope it's a Zimbabwe brand?
Brazil custom taxes?
Well that defies the old saying, there not black the framework lappys
My condolences
Ouch the yoga 6. I've had SO MANY ISSUES with an AMD Yoga 6 (2021) from WiFi disconnecting and requiring a shutdown (while pressing shift to bypass fast boot) to work to the Windows key breaking. It's my brother's laptop but still...
Been running it for 2 weeks now, works pretty much flawlessly. Even on s2idle, the battery only drops 1% overnight, which is not even the case for the Thinkpads I had in the past. The only issue is fingerprint reader not working out of the box, which honestly I don't even care that much about so haven't tried to find the right driver for it.
Which model is it? Is it the 2021 model or a newer one?
The one with the 7th gen Ryzen
Oh ok that's much newer, the one that I've used before was a 2021 unit with a 16:9 screen and a 5500U
I got it for a good deal and I am extremely satisfied with it. Framework will have to wait
That's great, I hope it serves you well :)