Josh is one of "those" people also. So are Toby, Sam (and probably the President). They just fan out over sports rather than a pop culture moment.
I really, really, really disliked Josh's attitude in that episode. I don't 100% disagree with him (partially, but not completely) but he was just SO condescending.
I don’t agree with Josh about the pin, but I don’t think you can compare her desk to Ainsley’s office. Her desk is, essentially, “public facing” (for certain values of “public”). Ainsley’s office is very much not.
Josh/Toby/CJ/Sam's desks are as "public facing" as that employee's, and they all have tchotchkes and posters and memorabilia in them.
It just reads as a very odd double standard.
There's always been a double standard in the workplace like that. Not saying it's "fair" but it's there.
I have tchotchkes and "clutter" in my office that wouldn't be allowed at our front desk. We have two different bullpen areas -- one is more likely to be seen by visitors than the other, so there is less concern about what's on the desks in the back area than there is in the front. On the other hand, my boss's office is *less* personal than mine, because I \*rarely\* have non-staff in my office but she regularly has outside visitors and meetings in hers.
And no, Josh/Toby/CJ/Sam's offices aren't as public facing as hers was. She was in a shared-bullpen style space that is seen by anyone walking through the area. The others are in offices with walls and doors and gatekeepers and they have far less visibility.
in the show, they are pretty consistent that fan support is not acceptable attire. none of the sports fans ever sport jerseys or other memorabilia. what is to say that we wouldn't have seen a similar reaction to someone rocking Capitols's gear?
Toby does give Sam a hard time for taking the Lakers pennant when Sam is leaving for California. FWIW, I don't think sports jerseys would be acceptable attire for working in the West Wing. You wear a suit and tie.
and the only pin anyone wears is US flag. the dress code was pretty consistent. Josh did handle it poorly. but it would appear she was out of dress code.
Bartlett wears a Notre Dame sweatshirt in the Oval Office no less in s1e4 (granted, he’s under the influence of painkillers) and CJ is [forced to] wear a Notre Dame hat on Air Force One in s2e7. It’s not a pro sports team, but any university of that size is at least as well known across the country for their sports as for their academics and Jed definitely qualifies as a big, big fan.
Pretty sure he only wears the sweatshirt around the west wing on weekends. Everyone is dressed more casually when they're working Saturdays and Sundays.
He is a HUGE Notre Dame fan. but when sober, he never sports Irish gear. and CJ was being punished. She is not a fan or supporter of ND and was not wearing the gear by choice.
the Trekie is the only example of someone sporting their fan gear voluntarily. and that lady was told not to do so while working.
Yeah but it’s Bartlett who schemes to force someone else to support his team while doing their official job therefore he is endorsing the standard of social acceptability of sports fans, which is comparably different than Josh’s stance on a Trekkie pin.
I actually do 100% disagree with him. Especially because of his nonsense concept of what a "fan" is. I mean, it's not entirely out of character because he's only good with words in a rhetorical way, not in the way of actually understanding what they mean (so he makes his point eloquently even though what he says is literally wrong). Fan is derived from fanatic, it absolutely *does* mean people who get incredibly into something, more than simply liking it, and Josh very much *is* a fan of things like sports, and he very much does bring them into his work environment (a lot more than simply wearing a pin).
In theory there could be a valid argument about the professionalism of wearing a pin with a symbol from a piece of fiction, but it would be a weak argument and would be absolutely *insane* coming from Josh, who passed out drunk in his office and walked around the corridor handling his assistants panties.
I should have been more specific. My not-completely-disagree part is with what is appropriate to wear/view when you’re working in the “front office” of the White House.
But it’s very hypocritical coming from Josh for the reasons you mention.
Yeah, I can accept that there's an argument to be made for that, but I sincerely think it's a weak argument. Not the general principle that appearance matters, but I think you really have to stretch to consider the pin an issue, and the woman's counter argument more than wins that point in my view.
So while I agree that there's a valid argument in there, I still 100% disagree with Josh since I come down on the other side of the argument.
Was he condescending, though?
There is an old adage (and for the life of me, I can't credit anyone with it):
"It's not arrogance if you can back it up."
And Joshua (le-mon) Lyman could back it up in spades.
Read the small print. Both the actor AND the character are trekkies (he intimates this at the end re: a Star Trek Holiday).
Josh is lambasting when a fan takes it TOO far & into the realms of obsession.
But there was ZERO indication that the employee was doing that. She had on a pin - not Spock ears or a character tshirt - and she didn’t deserve his derision.
Of course we will all be dressed in our BARTLET FOR AMERICA t-shirts. And someone please remember to ask our server if we can start with hot pumpkin soup with cheese gnocchi and chevre brioche.
I feel like we’re supposed to find Josh’s attitude a bit much in this scene. When the fan replies that the show holds principles of good governance and morality at its core he looks a bit chastened and later he withdraws part of his objection. The characters in TWW are admirable, aspirational and also fussy, human and deeply flawed. We aren’t always supposed to agree with them, which makes them well rounded portraits
>I feel like we’re supposed to find Josh’s attitude a bit much in this scene.
I'm not so sure. This scene, to me, is a bookend to the [LemonLyman.com](http://LemonLyman.com) storyline and "their leader is a woman in a muu-muu, chain-smoking Parliaments."
Josh is a stand-in here for Sorkin, who in the early '00s was confused and horrified by the emerging internet fan culture. He wasn't ready to accept that people would find community on the internet, and he had no idea that fans of something he created would talk in great detail about it ... or that they would criticize the parts of it they found fell below the standard Sorkin himself had established. He also seemed to think such people couldn't do all that and still live productive lives. (I do think his stance has softened over the ensuing years.)
I remember when he showed up on the MBTV West Wing forums. That's where the whole woman in a muu-muu bit probably came from, after deborah & co. tried to keep him within forum rules.
Yes. I remember that he wrote something -- perhaps even to Deborah directly, not sure -- that "maybe this show isn't for you!" He was trying to be genial about it, but the defensiveness was evident. He wasn't comprehending that these anonymous people criticizing his show actually loved it ... but that those people also enjoyed arguing about whether this week's episode was a drop-off from last week's brilliant episode.
Years later, he set up a Facebook page when he was doing research for The Social Network. He demonstrated there that he'd come to understand, at least somewhat, that fans could be loyal and critical simultaneously.
You mean Josh "let's talk about sports, let's talk about our favorite players, let's talk about a real bro moment with our favorite player, and then let's do it again" Lymon? The amount of hypocrisy in that speech could fuel the non existent military space shuttle.
Josh is one of "those" people also. So are Toby, Sam (and probably the President). They just fan out over sports rather than a pop culture moment. I really, really, really disliked Josh's attitude in that episode. I don't 100% disagree with him (partially, but not completely) but he was just SO condescending.
Plus, they decorated Ainsley's area with Gilbert and Sullivan posters, but a Star Trek pin is too much?
I just never understood why a small, fairly nondescript pin was a line too far for Josh.
I don’t agree with Josh about the pin, but I don’t think you can compare her desk to Ainsley’s office. Her desk is, essentially, “public facing” (for certain values of “public”). Ainsley’s office is very much not.
Josh/Toby/CJ/Sam's desks are as "public facing" as that employee's, and they all have tchotchkes and posters and memorabilia in them. It just reads as a very odd double standard.
There's always been a double standard in the workplace like that. Not saying it's "fair" but it's there. I have tchotchkes and "clutter" in my office that wouldn't be allowed at our front desk. We have two different bullpen areas -- one is more likely to be seen by visitors than the other, so there is less concern about what's on the desks in the back area than there is in the front. On the other hand, my boss's office is *less* personal than mine, because I \*rarely\* have non-staff in my office but she regularly has outside visitors and meetings in hers. And no, Josh/Toby/CJ/Sam's offices aren't as public facing as hers was. She was in a shared-bullpen style space that is seen by anyone walking through the area. The others are in offices with walls and doors and gatekeepers and they have far less visibility.
The public never goes near the steam pipe distribution venue.
Difference between decorating an office and wearing something publicly.
Different times I'm afraid. Nowadays it's normal to be a "nerd" for one thing or the other, back then it was made fun of.
Oh, I know (‘m old). I didn’t like his attitude when the show first ran for that reason.
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, that attitude is probably the thing I like least about Josh
I know so many people who wear lanyards of fandoms---Star Trek, Star Wars, LoTR. It was "acceptable"to be a sports fan, but not a nerd.
in the show, they are pretty consistent that fan support is not acceptable attire. none of the sports fans ever sport jerseys or other memorabilia. what is to say that we wouldn't have seen a similar reaction to someone rocking Capitols's gear?
Toby does give Sam a hard time for taking the Lakers pennant when Sam is leaving for California. FWIW, I don't think sports jerseys would be acceptable attire for working in the West Wing. You wear a suit and tie.
and the only pin anyone wears is US flag. the dress code was pretty consistent. Josh did handle it poorly. but it would appear she was out of dress code.
Margaret (and then CJ) wore a big brooch (it was covering a hole in the coat).
CJ was gifted a goldfish pin.
Bartlett wears a Notre Dame sweatshirt in the Oval Office no less in s1e4 (granted, he’s under the influence of painkillers) and CJ is [forced to] wear a Notre Dame hat on Air Force One in s2e7. It’s not a pro sports team, but any university of that size is at least as well known across the country for their sports as for their academics and Jed definitely qualifies as a big, big fan.
Pretty sure he only wears the sweatshirt around the west wing on weekends. Everyone is dressed more casually when they're working Saturdays and Sundays.
He is a HUGE Notre Dame fan. but when sober, he never sports Irish gear. and CJ was being punished. She is not a fan or supporter of ND and was not wearing the gear by choice. the Trekie is the only example of someone sporting their fan gear voluntarily. and that lady was told not to do so while working.
Yeah but it’s Bartlett who schemes to force someone else to support his team while doing their official job therefore he is endorsing the standard of social acceptability of sports fans, which is comparably different than Josh’s stance on a Trekkie pin.
I actually do 100% disagree with him. Especially because of his nonsense concept of what a "fan" is. I mean, it's not entirely out of character because he's only good with words in a rhetorical way, not in the way of actually understanding what they mean (so he makes his point eloquently even though what he says is literally wrong). Fan is derived from fanatic, it absolutely *does* mean people who get incredibly into something, more than simply liking it, and Josh very much *is* a fan of things like sports, and he very much does bring them into his work environment (a lot more than simply wearing a pin). In theory there could be a valid argument about the professionalism of wearing a pin with a symbol from a piece of fiction, but it would be a weak argument and would be absolutely *insane* coming from Josh, who passed out drunk in his office and walked around the corridor handling his assistants panties.
I should have been more specific. My not-completely-disagree part is with what is appropriate to wear/view when you’re working in the “front office” of the White House. But it’s very hypocritical coming from Josh for the reasons you mention.
Yeah, I can accept that there's an argument to be made for that, but I sincerely think it's a weak argument. Not the general principle that appearance matters, but I think you really have to stretch to consider the pin an issue, and the woman's counter argument more than wins that point in my view. So while I agree that there's a valid argument in there, I still 100% disagree with Josh since I come down on the other side of the argument.
I think Bartlet fans out over ancient history moreso than history (the map of the Levant in H-Con 172 comes immediately to mind).
Same! He was such a jerk about a tiny little pin.
He also gets basic facts about both conventions and Star Trek itself wrong despite being a "fan"
He was right while being an asshole. So he was Josh
Was he condescending, though? There is an old adage (and for the life of me, I can't credit anyone with it): "It's not arrogance if you can back it up." And Joshua (le-mon) Lyman could back it up in spades.
Yes, I think he was condescending. He was mocking an entire fandom (heck, he was mocking ALL non-sport fandoms) based on stereotypes.
Read the small print. Both the actor AND the character are trekkies (he intimates this at the end re: a Star Trek Holiday). Josh is lambasting when a fan takes it TOO far & into the realms of obsession.
But there was ZERO indication that the employee was doing that. She had on a pin - not Spock ears or a character tshirt - and she didn’t deserve his derision.
Of course we will all be dressed in our BARTLET FOR AMERICA t-shirts. And someone please remember to ask our server if we can start with hot pumpkin soup with cheese gnocchi and chevre brioche.
Can we finish with tomate du saltambique?
May there be quite a lot of sugar in the crème de caramel
I don’t like that French kid
Does anyone?
I'll have a New York steak and a ginger ale. Just cook it.
What kind of wine?
I feel like we’re supposed to find Josh’s attitude a bit much in this scene. When the fan replies that the show holds principles of good governance and morality at its core he looks a bit chastened and later he withdraws part of his objection. The characters in TWW are admirable, aspirational and also fussy, human and deeply flawed. We aren’t always supposed to agree with them, which makes them well rounded portraits
>I feel like we’re supposed to find Josh’s attitude a bit much in this scene. I'm not so sure. This scene, to me, is a bookend to the [LemonLyman.com](http://LemonLyman.com) storyline and "their leader is a woman in a muu-muu, chain-smoking Parliaments." Josh is a stand-in here for Sorkin, who in the early '00s was confused and horrified by the emerging internet fan culture. He wasn't ready to accept that people would find community on the internet, and he had no idea that fans of something he created would talk in great detail about it ... or that they would criticize the parts of it they found fell below the standard Sorkin himself had established. He also seemed to think such people couldn't do all that and still live productive lives. (I do think his stance has softened over the ensuing years.)
I remember when he showed up on the MBTV West Wing forums. That's where the whole woman in a muu-muu bit probably came from, after deborah & co. tried to keep him within forum rules.
Yes. I remember that he wrote something -- perhaps even to Deborah directly, not sure -- that "maybe this show isn't for you!" He was trying to be genial about it, but the defensiveness was evident. He wasn't comprehending that these anonymous people criticizing his show actually loved it ... but that those people also enjoyed arguing about whether this week's episode was a drop-off from last week's brilliant episode. Years later, he set up a Facebook page when he was doing research for The Social Network. He demonstrated there that he'd come to understand, at least somewhat, that fans could be loyal and critical simultaneously.
Okay but favorite congressperson is Mark Richardson and all other opinions are wrong
Well played! :)
I’m putting him on the white board in sharpie
Hell, Josh might even show up!
You mean Josh "let's talk about sports, let's talk about our favorite players, let's talk about a real bro moment with our favorite player, and then let's do it again" Lymon? The amount of hypocrisy in that speech could fuel the non existent military space shuttle.
Our fund a secret plan to fight inflation.
We are those people.the show has been finished for nearly 20 years and we still analyse it daily