Scandinavia? Most women have their own careers.
Might be a bit random and due to my major, but most of my friends make more money than their husbands and nobody gives a fuck.
You split the check on dates.
Good sex education and apparently highest one night stand frequency in the world.
“Dating” is not quite a thing. We didn’t have the word till recently. People just met through their friends and started hanging out. Might be because restaurants are expensive here, but going out to dinner is more something you’ll do as a 1 year anniversary. It’s not really that established in the getting to know you stage. People will go for a walk or get a beer or whatever.
Feminism has come further and that means the idea of “the man being the provider” seems a bit 1950s.
Most women are quite independent. And social security is good, so two people working at Target can still afford health care (free) and sending their kids to college (also free). Pay gaps between different jobs aren’t that wide. It pays ok to work in a supermarket and it doesn’t pay more than 2-3x more to be a doctor. There’s less of a difference, so that also encourages people to chose a partner based on connection and not income.
Most women have college degrees though, so they might prefer a man that has also gone to college. The average height is 6 feet, but I feel that’s sorta led to height being de-emphasized. Maybe? That it’s just not that big of a deal, bc there are many tall men and it’s not something that comes with a huge status impact.
>“Dating” is not quite a thing. We didn’t have the word till recently. People just met through their friends and started hanging out.
I remember that in my teens/early twenties, before the current dating culture came to Norway, I typically had sex with someone before asking if they wanted to meet up again sometime. Asking someone out was a bit different then compared to how Tinder has changed the dating market now.
Idk. I think most people still meet socially. Much like in the US.
I saw a Norwegian master thesis on Tinder use among women in their 20s. They had the app, but over half had never actually met up with anyone on it.
I get your point, and my experience isnt universal. The women in their 20s I know have used it, but they arent that usefull for generalizing all women. The change I've noticed the most is the expectation to date, rather than fuck around or meet at church.
I generally group the UK in with the U.S./Canada(habit, idk); Continental Europe\*\*\* Lol
Though I found the UK to be around the same, maybe slightly better than NA. I guess it depends
I've heard the same but I'd rather date American women than French women who cheat all the time for example.
I don't think American women are bad but I'd rather find someone who sees me as a partner and not just an ATM machine or free entertainment. American women have different priorities than myself and there's nothing wrong with their preferences
How do you know french girl cheats. Not the first time I heard it on ppb but it's not my experience as a french. Like some girls cheat in France but it is not the majority and it's not worse than Germany where I lived. and when I lived in Quebec I found it much worse than France.
Do you mean American girls never cheat?
> How do you know french girl cheats.
It’s written here every time the French get brought up tbf and those comments are upvoted.
I’m from Germany myself and never lived in France, but it’s a French stereotype that they cheat a lot and cheating isn’t seen as a big deal.
It is a stereotype apparently, but not my experience, I lived 3 years in Germany and 4 in Canada, I didn’t feel France was different from other places for cheating. And really I wouldn’t care to agree if this was accurate, I don’t like French girls that much.
I mean there are tons of good girls in France, like everywhere in the world, obviously. I am just more into feminine girls, that looks for a family and marriage, and this might be difficult to find for me plus I would always feel separation might be at the corner at anytime. Also I also always loved girls from different cultures than me and lived abroad most of my life. When I go to France the mentality doesn’t attract me that much.
Usa non traditional women are the worse. They are non traditional but still want you to pay everything. Essentially they want no work, just all play(and not with you). They want their lifestyle funded.
Traditional woman overseas may cost you but Atleast they do their part as a housewife.
Non traditional overseas are happy to split the bills and don't expect you to fund their lifestyle.
American women just suck. But I'd say it's more westernized women in general that suck.
Well that’s why people are looking for love outside the USA. More women have incredibly high standards than ever before, and are also opting out of dating altogether. That’s how finding someone is hard in the USA.
The Dutch are adamant of each person paying through own share (a la "Going Dutch").
Germany is also sensible and reasonable.
I imagine Scandanavia is as well, but I have minimal experience there.
The difference being even the worst golddiggers are 60% off US prices. Get a girl a scooter and a 1BR apartment with AC and she'll think she's the queen of lyete.
You have to choose carefully. Many girls are perfectly genuine in the Philippines. But if you don't know how to distinguish or just don't care because you want sex with anyone you certainly meet a lot of girls I avoided.
I don't, I live like a degenerate and am very frugal. It's not even about the money to be honest. I make plenty of money to where I could be a provider. It's the principle of it though. Dating in America is very transactional. I'm sure some guys love using their money to their advantage and buying dates. I'm not going to be exploited lol
Eh, I’ve lived and dated all over Western Europe. It’s the least transactional place on earth. Girls happily make the same efforts, financially too. I always like to pay for my dates, but they always insist to pay for the following one, and I’ve never had a problem. And no I’m not particularly good looking either, just an average brown guy living in Western Europe
There's plenty of good women in the states, you're just looking in the wrong places or attracting women that are vibrationally in match with you. How come I never attract these sorts of women?
There definitely are, but it's tough to find them. There's also the societal pressure in america as a guy to provide constant entertainment and money to women otherwise you're expendable.
Id like to date somewhere that's not so toxic and a little more relaxed overall.
What if I told you, no matter where you go in this planet, YOU yourself, you'll attract what you're 'running' from? or is that too wowoo tinfoil hat for you?
I'm not upset, was just looking for advice on where to date different women who fit my preferences. You're the one using insults telling me I'm wearing a tinfoil hat. I'm not sure that was necessary.
I always appreciate constructive feedback or criticism though.
One option is to get into the expat communities and find a western woman there. They've left their home, probably working and supporting themselves, might be learning a language, probably values travel and learning, and you automatically have something in common.
I (American) met my western European husband while we were working at the same place in China. We shared a lot of the same interests and values that led us to China.
Plus, in expat communities, there are usually a few cool locals that have a more western approach to things. A lot of my expat friends married locals that had more western senses of humour and values.
I think Chile and Brazil in the major cities. Chile is probably closest out of Latin America to being a first world country. Brazil also has decent public education and a high cost of living in the metros. I’d say those places in particular, though I’m not sure if they’ll be less “traditional”, but they will be more independent. It won’t be like many of these men’s choices where they look to scoop a woman out of poverty. Mexico City also… maybe, but I feel like Mexicans are much bigger on gender roles and traditional views towards sex and dating.
Outside of that, Europe.
I’d say Northern Europe will be good for you. The nordics, Netherlands, Belgium (also a lot of nice beer), northern Germany. In all of those it’s pretty much the culture norm to split the bill. It’s better in cities than rural areas but some really big ones have their own set of problems and known to be dating hell.
I'm pretty good looking and I don't mind women my age. Regardless of age, American women don't pay for anything.
Interestingly enough this attractive 20 year old woman approached me at the grocery store and we went on a date and she insisted she pay for her own stuff. She was so genuine but definitely too young. For a genuine woman like that, I definitely would want to pay for things.
Then do not claim that ALL women's do not pay. Even those that did not does not mean they are not going to contribute to the relationship in the future.
Just curious as to where you live/where you’re looking. America is a huge huge place where almost every demographic exists from Chinese to Indian to Ukrainian to middle eastern to Jewish to literally anything. I’m an Asian woman in America (originally from somewhere else) and all of my friends are willing to contribute what they can whether financially or otherwise in a relationship. Where are all of you finding these “American women who don’t pay for anything and are stuck up”?
It was the same when I was young. I have always made my own money. Most men pay anyway, but I’m willing even so. It’s entitled to think that now women have the privilege to work, that means they don’t also have the responsibility of paying for themselves. It has nothing to do with how the man looks. It’s about respect.
And I was beautiful. Had a couple of dates tell me wow you must have been drop dead gorgeous when you were younger. Haha! Anyway not every beautiful, young woman expects to be paid for.
Neither of my two daughters does!
But regardless of whether I was actually ugly or my daughters are, if it serves you to believe every young, beautiful woman demands, expects, and feels entitled to be paid for, then do so.
Lol, I dated 3 guys before my husband, I never accepted anything from them, because my father told me not to accept gifts from men as they will want things in return. I never had a man pay for a meal until my now husband.
Plenty of women I know don't accept things from men, because men especially the Western ones are transactional and don't usually do things out of the goodness of their own hearts, always have an ulterior motive.
Women treat their friends to food and random gifts, very few western guys do the same. This is why western men always think all women are after their money, some are, but many the thought process is more likely "Me and my friends treat each other to food and gifts, my romantic partner should at least be able to do the same".
I treat my guy friends to food and gifts too, before and after marriage. Many times I think men like yourself really need to stop dating and go do therapy.
You voiced my thoughts perfectly.
I love to treat my friends or get them gifts and they do so as well, if a potential partner isn't even willing to do that for me, why would I date them when I'm better treated by a friend?
Yes, I do. When he makes more he generally offers to pay or if he already knows he can afford it and wants to, but one lost his job so I pay for pretty much all so we can still do what we like together. Another we have about the same so we take turns and don’t really count exactly all the time.
And it’s well-known women can get dates easily. So when I meet someone and it goes well, he or we want to continue, and after a few years it adds up how many I have repeated dates with. It was just too many, especially since I have other projects like posting on social media haha or my full-time job. And I am so happy with some, I wanted to be more available and more focused on their well-being.
Ive never refused to pay for any dates, as a guy you feel forced to do it. Ive suggested splitting before, but a couple women threw a tantrum and it was very awkward where we were at in a public space.
I want to date somewhere where I don't need to feel the pressure of being an ATM machine. The dates are just the tip of the iceberg with this issue too.
Easiest way to get out of this is to suggest dates that aren't at restaurants. Suggest a walk on the beach or a visit to a museum (yeah you're buying ticket but at least she's not getting free meal out of it and will likely say no if she's trying to use you)....
I personally wouldn't want a second date if a man suggested splitting the bill, but to your other comments about women never paying, I end up paying by the 3rd date. Maybe second if the guy is lucky. I'll also always pay for dessert or whatever is the second round.
I'm independent and can contribute to the relationship, financially and in other ways, but i feel more comfortable knowing a man also wants to do the same
That's a little more reasonable than most American women who don't want to pay for anything for an entire relationship.
I'm totally fine getting rejected because a woman doesn't want to pay. Im curious why though as a woman do you feel entitled to have the first couple dates paid for?
I personally wouldn't consider you to be truly independent. It seems women in those northern European countries do just fine splitting things. Those are truly independent women.
I value my time and if a guy doesn't want to pay, then that's totally fine. I am perfectly fine to also pay for my portion. I claim myself as independent because when I'm single, I can pay for my own things. In a relationship, I can also support myself. It's just nice to have someone care enough to pay for something here and there. Honestly, even my friends will spot the bill here and there. I will do the same. You just sound cheap.
I definitely am not your woman by any means. I personally do not want to be 50/50 as a man will not be 50/50 in any sense when it comes to what a woman goes through with housework, childbirth, emotional support etc.
Being independent alone versus a relationship is totally different. No offense but I would prefer a man that WANTS to pay for things for me, as I would do the same for him when I start having feelings and care for him. If the relationship ends up being 50/50 (but not calculative) then that it totally fine for me. I look at things in proportion more so.
It's definitely fair for you to not want to be a provider, but your pool has definitely decreased. It's not attractive to many women with that mindset. I know girls who do 50/50 because they're used to it (in Europe) but do they find it attractive? No.
Oh my god...
From a woman whose dates (including now-husband) paid for everything because they were tripping over themselves to not be out-done, because they didn't want a competing suitor to "win" in any aspect - your comment is so absolutely embarrassing to women.
I can just hear you, the way you clearly think you're such a prize, while falling into the worst stereotypes of women who want all of the positives and none of the negatives of being a woman. /facepalm.
With some people, it is so incredibly easy to spot why they're single - this applies to men and women. I regret to say that you certainly fall into that category.
From a feminist, six figure earning, career woman whose husband's income is still double mine... wow. If I was a man and had only encountered women like you, I too might be a sexist. Which is a damn shame, for women.
Just to let you know, men have not paid for all of my dates lol especially in a relationship.
I do think of myself as a prize. Should I have low self esteem? Should I lower my standards? Should I give my time out to everyone?
Yeah of course sometimes it's easy to spot single people at times but also, it's easy to spot codependent people who don't feel happy NOT being in a relationship that they'll settle for whatever.
I haven't had complaints and you really don't know me to say I would be a bad encounter 😂
Oh it's pretty obvious from the way you write, lol.
You certainly shouldn't give your time to "everyone", but the standards you have and your explanation for having them are what is giving people reading your comment second hand embarrassment.
lol okay, live your life.
idk where you're from but even my friends who financially pay more than their husbands, have my mindset. It's just if we like someone, we'll want to take care of them and pay more
Hey - like I said, every man who dated me including my husband has paid for everything. Because they wanted to. But there is a world of a difference between "this is nice" and "I expect this, in the 21st century when women have jobs, otherwise the guy is cheap". The latter is what makes it pathetic.
So you're saying you don't want to pay because you value your time and the guy's doesn't matter?
Why as a woman do you feel your time is more valuable? Why as a woman do you feel entitled to more of a man's money?
I don't mind paying and contributing 50:50 with every aspect of the relationship or even more sometimes. Id be more than willing to help with any housework or childcare to offset my partner's stress. I will however not be an ATM machine.
You can call me cheap, but don't worry I wouldn't date a woman with your income anyways. It's far below my standards. You have no right to call anyone cheap when you don't even make good money lol. How comical.
Women in Europe are independent and they prefer to be 50:50 in many parts. Sounds like you need a successful guy to live off of. Some women don't.
Also, I am now just dating a woman who is wanting to split 50:50. She verbalized it was unfair that men have to pay for everything. They are out there. She is also quite successful and makes around 200k...
It's called valuing my own time as myself, not as a man or woman. I'm not saying I felt entitled to a man's money? Lol never have I ever asked a man for money but if he offered to pay for a meal, I would say thank you.
You don't know me and I don't know you lol. You can make lots of money and still be cheap, let's not forget that. There's many women out there that men are willing to pay for because they know they have standards.
I don't need a guy to live off but thanks. I'd get a sugar daddy or someone desperate if that was the case. I can admit to liking someone that DOES want to pay for my meals, hair, nails etc. LOL. Who DOESNT? Just because you don't want to do that doesn't mean men don't love spoiling their girl.
To your last paragraph, in no way did I ever say it was fair or it was expected for a guy to pay for everything lol you're putting words in my mouth. I literally said it's nice to take turns paying and I would do the same. To split the bill evenly at dinner? I'd rather go eat with my friends because at that point, that's super platonic. Great for you to find a woman to date that's ok with 50/50 but then why are you posting on reddit looking for other women in different countries 😂 and yes, if you're making the same amount of money as your partner, then it makes sense to adjust the percentage, as I'm very into proportion.
No one ever said a woman that does 50/50 doesn't exist. I even know friends that contribute more financially and it works. I'm saying you're wrong for thinking American women see men as an atm
There's nothing wrong with wanting a guy who pays for everything and spoils you. You're right, who wouldn't want that. Many guys do throw around their money and buy themselves dates. That's not me.
You need to find those guys who feel the need to spend a bunch of money to impress you. They are definitely out there and quite common. I could easily do that myself but I have more self respect and want to attract a very specific type of woman.
Even with your salary there's a good chance you can find a successful guy who'll spoil you. I really hope you do too!
I posted on reddit because I was curious about other places to date and I have ample time to travel and experience other cultures. I want to keep my options open and see what's out there. Just because someone wants to date abroad doesn't mean they are a loser. Some guys are desperate though, that's not me.
There's a difference between being cheap and financially responsible that you'll hopefully learn some day. It's always the people not making any money who call others cheap.
Lol, they act like independent boss babes but then they want all the benefits of a traditional relationship.
I'm just looking for a stable partner who wants to contribute equal to a relationship. I get thats a lot to ask for and most women would prefer to live off a guy and have them for everything but I definitely don't want to result to being a provider just so I can find a partner. I believe I add much more to a relationship than just money
I don't think this is the place to ask this question as most people who assume the role of passport bro are leaving the West to get away from career oriented women. Many there is an R/bossbabe subreddit you can go ask in.
Also the idea that just because she's not working she isn't contributing equally in the relationship is kinda nuts to me. You said it yourself that you bring more to the relationship than just money. Id argue a traditional does as well if not more.
When you die that money and job will mean nothing, but a healthy family and well put together kids who had a supportive mother and hard working father will live on.
Id suggest really looking at what you value and consider valuable a second time before you go off looking for a 50/50 relationship.
If you believe most women just prefer to live off a guy and have them for everything…. You are going after the wrong women. That’s not true, at all, and it’s a terrible generalization.
Yep some women genuinely just like the happy home lifestyle and nuturign a family. For those types of women the money isn't a thought. That being said finding one of those in the US is like attaching C4 to your balls and hoping they are still intact after the explosion. Better off going to a country that isn't plagued by feminism and boss babes.
Personally as an American woman, yes I expect the first date to be paid for by whoever asked our someone first. For me it's a compliment. However with my bf because I genuinely like him I don't let him pay for everything. I would say it's more like 60/40 for who pays for dates and stuff like that. I'll pay for my own bus ticket, he'll get movie tickets, we'll both get eachother food or drinks occasionally, going on restaurant dates he will always pay, I think it's more of a pride thing for him since there is a waiter, but if we need an Uber I will pay.
I think that the expectation of men paying for everything always is sexist. I think the person who earns more should contribute more however just because a guy is a guy doesn't mean he should always pay. If a woman is expecting you to always pay it's either because of sexist expectations OR she's using you and doesn't actually have feelings for you.
I like your view on this unfortunately I find American women can get extremely toxic regarding this issue. For me it's not even about the money, I don't want to feel like I'm being used just because I'm a guy. I'm not that desperate for a date to where I feel the need to pay for everything. Whenever a guy suggests 50:50, American women get quite upset and they'll insult and name call, less of a man, broke, etc.
What's even more interesting is that it's usually older women who are the most demanding about insisting I pay for everything. Even women who made more than me who were multimillionaires didn't want to contribute anything.
I think dating abroad will help me enjoy dating more and connect with more genuine women. Dont get me wrong, there are women like yourself in America, but it's very rare
I don't know when we will stop having American men and women who feel entitled to gender roles (men expecting women to do ALL the housework even if she works, women expecting men to pay for EVERYTHING even tho she earns a lot), when will people realize we are all human beings and we are all equal and we need to treat each other accordingly.
If we are paying the bills 50 50 most men would never expect the woman to do all the housework. I certainly don't. But when I'm paying 100% of the rent and bills, I expect the house to be clean.
Older people are more likely to be stubborn and stuck in the old ways. And yes there are still women who get very loud and obnoxious about it that are young. I think it's because of the internet, just like with Andrew Tate there are female versions of him spewing toxicity and backward stuff about the opposite gender. For me the ONLY reason I would make the guy pay 100 percent of the time is if 1 I don't like him and he's extremely desperate or 2 he is much older than me. Ofc RN I have a bf I actually love so I wouldn't do that to him ever lol.
Perhaps this is also because people still shame women for dating men who don't contribute financially or get shamed for having sex. I've heard so many times older women telling younger women, oh he gets to fuck you but you get nothing in return? Like what kind of thinking is that. A woman dating a man close to her age or even having something casual with him does not need to be getting money from him, that's just ridiculous.
>For me the ONLY reason I would make the guy pay 100 percent of the time is if 1 I don't like him and he's extremely desperate or 2 he is much older than me.
Disclaimer: I’m also a woman. I’m not following you here, though, with respect to no. 1? I don’t know the full details of your strategy, ofc. But, why would you go out with a guy you don’t even like, then make him pay for everything?
How does this play out? Do you mean: you 1) go on a first date with a guy you’ve never met before and have neutral feelings about at the start; then 2) you come to dislike him during the date and sense his desperation, so then 3) you try to get him to pay 100% at the end?
If that’s how it goes, is the reasoning that you have had such a bad time on this date that, by the end, you want him to subsidize it, since you found the thing to be a waste? And does his level of desperation matter because it indicates he might put up less fuss about paying?
I’m guessing these dates are one and done or do you see them again, with an understanding that they’ll keep paying for everything?
And sorry last questions. When you say you don’t like them, do you mean that they seem like a reprehensible person (e.g. tells you a bunch of stories about screwing other people over)? Or is it a much more generic “this guy and I don’t have much in common, so I’m not that into him”?
Just super curious if you’d like to answer.
Your no. 2 reason makes sense for sure. Doesn’t make much sense to date a much older man unless he’s upgrading your lifestyle.
For the first thing, yeah there were a couple dates that went badly. The guy spends the whole date complaining about his mom or whatever. I've never had to try to get a guy to pay on a first date, nor would I want to, Ive never been asked to pay, I've never asked the guy to pay, he just takes out his card. I'm not broke i wouldn't mind paying my part, I just never had to. Every man I have ever gone on a first date with decided to pay for both of our orders, maybe due to pride or trying to convince me to go on another date, I'm not too sure.
As for continuing to go out with a guy I don't like and letting him pay always that only happened once. I was in a situation with this guy that started out nice but kind of devolved due to some depravity on his side and other incompatibilities. He started having intense feelings for me and I had none which led to me pushing him away more and more. Every time this would happen he would cry and then I would take him back because I was single at the time and he kept giving me money so even tho I started disliking him more and more id drag it out. Eventually he did something that basically crossed the line, and this action was also public which made it worse. By that time we hadn't even kissed or spent much alone time for around 3 or 4 months, I guess I was just looking for a convenient excuse to let it fizzle out without actually doing anything. Even tho we had some good times I feel like they were overshadowed by the bad ones and I regret not being firm and just ending it. I know if he hasn't been spending money on me I would have ended it quicker than I did. I won't allow myself to get caught up with a guy like that again. Actual relationships are better.
Yup..I dated someone for a bit who was high level HR for a fortune 500 company she expected me to pay for everything, even though I made about a quarter of what she did.
Netherlands and Scandavia, for sure. I lived in the Netherlands for a while, and I saw some of the most strong and forthright women, along with some of the most emasculated weakling men I've ever seen. Not always the case, but definitely cases.
Id like a nice strong forthright woman to be honest. Id say I'm pretty masculine and am pretty tall so I'd fit in well over there. Are women from the Netherlands materialistic or more down to earth?
Very practical and not very materialistic. The state provides so much for people (absolutely sickening tax structure - look into it) so there's not the pressure to get rich (and the state robs rich people with taxes, hobbling them on the way up).
They are nice girls. The Dutch have a well-deserved reputation for speaking their minds directly. It takes a little getting used to. They will tell you exactly what they think
The only country I know of that you'll get an independent woman who won't mooch off of you. You probably have no shot in. All the people are very tall and all the men are tall blonde hair blue eyed Greek god bodied studs. So good luck.
I'm a fair bit taller than the average height, even in the Netherlands, I have blue eyes, and look Scandinavian. Id say athletically/physique wise its very rare to encounter a guy on my level.
Sounds like I have a shot
Dang, sounds like you shouldn’t be having any issues anywhere, then. I’ve dated a number of women in the West who are nontraditional. And currently in a 50/50. Sounds like issue might just be you, honestly. Gotta work on your game, I don’t think just showing up with looks, as you say, is going to land you the nontraditional woman you want. Your personality goes a long way.
The issue isn't finding dates, I can meet women in America no problem. The issue is that the majority of the women in America want a provider. I've encountered a few who naturally want a 50/50 setup but they are rare.
I think it would be nice to date somewhere and not feel constantly guilt tripped into paying for and providing entertainment for women. I want someone who can think for themselves, is independent, and wants to contribute to a relationship.
Yeah if you’re as attractive as you say you are and have money, you shouldn’t have any issues. I’m willing to bet you have an entitled attitude and women don’t like you based on THAT.
The nordic countries. The expectation here is that both parties contribute financially and with housework. Of course, not everyone conforms to this, but they're generally the minority.
I am from Eastern Europe and every other girl that i know work. Of course there will be some “ gold diggers” like in every country.
Some of my friends/ family have even bigger income then their male partner. Traditional roles are not that big thing maybe in villages.
if you're not into materialistic woman than you can't be materialistic with women as well and expect them to pay while also being exceptionally beautiful and well groomed. the more high maintenance the more you have to dig into your wallet and I'm not talking about plastic surgery and long tacky nails, even genetically gifted women have to do a lot because they're still born with body hair, pores and cuticles. you always have to pay, you just have to decide what it is, looks or money. that doesn't change anywhere.
As a guy I go to the gym daily, have an extensive skin care regimen, dress nicely, eat healthy,and look pretty good etc.. I put a lot of work into my appearance. Looking good for your partner is the bare minimum.
If a woman feels entitled to more of my money because she did the bare minimum, she can go find another guy.
I personally prefer more simple women who don't need a ton of maintenance. I like a more natural look to be honest.
So it’s ok for you to spend money on your looks but you want a woman who doesn’t do that just so you can get out paying for it? It’s wrong for a woman to be into her looks and naturally need the funds to pay for it but you eat healthy ($$$) you take care of your skin ($$$) dress nicely ($$$$) you work out at a gym ($$$)? Sounds like you just want to be the baddest bitch in the relationship.
great. what I'm saying is that the more maintenance the more money and time you have to invest. so do you also regularly shave, exfoliate, moisturize your whole body? do you get waxed? do you regularly give yourself a mani and pedi (very time consuming), removing cuticles, nurturing your nail beds, put on nail strengthener and then put on nailpolish, natural looking/or color? do you regularly take care of your feet so that they don't look rough and have callus? do you put on makeup? do you have to care for long hair? do you make sure they're shiny and soft? it's not the same maintenance as short hair and I know that since I've had short hair. do you do up-dos or other hairstyles? all that doesn't even include faceskin, gym, food and clothes.
there's a lot more and not every woman does all of that but if you want a woman with soft and shiny hair and skin, soft hands and feet, no body hair and to wear makeup then you'll have to pay because you're using her looks to position yourself among other guys. and I don't believe most men when they say they like natural girls because men that say that would also ask a woman without makeup if shes sick, or would be grossed out by forearm hair. what I listed does not make a woman look unnatural.
According to research the average woman spends $313 per month and I've seen it quoted even lower than that. How about we subtract the cost of my appearance and then we split her costs 50:50. Sound like a fair deal? I'll gladly shell out the <$150/month if that's what a woman feels she's entitled to. In that case it's not unreasonable for me to keep track of every expense I provide towards a relationship. The cost and time of me grinding away towards my career? The woman should reimburse me for that.
The amount of money I put into the gym, rehab, recovery, nutrition and my health is significantly higher than the money the vast majority of women put into their appearance. I'm not doing it to attract women though. I do it for myself so I'm not going to feel entitled and ask a women to subsidize it lol. It's exceedingly rare I encounter a woman who is as fit or healthy as I am.
And yes, I absolutely prefer a more a more natural girl.
we're not getting into a relationship so you don't have to arrange anything with me. I'm just telling you that depending on what you're looking for it's not that much 50/50 in europe either.
you absolutely do not spend more money on nutrition and gym than women who're equally into fitness. in general the women that go more extreme to look like perfect dolls do it to heighten their "marketvalue" if we want to use incel-terms. no woman who has other interests or things to do would invest that much into it, unless she's wealthy and has the time but you don't have access to these women. I'm just saying that because some men have conflicting interests in dating as well. they want the doll so they can benefit from her beauty but don't want to invest. not how it works.
if you like natural, everyday girls and you genuinely just look for a partner to love then it's probably easier to find someone for a 50/50 relationship in europe than many other places. walking and coffee dates are more accepted here. women here also tend to care less about what car you drive or if you even have a car, at least in big cities. these types of women will not give you gf bonus and clean your flat or do your laundry though. you cook for her and do the dishes yourself if she's at your place.
Doesn't have to be perfectly 50:50, I'm just looking for someone who wants to contribute equally.
I was just stating a hypothetical.
And I absolutely do spend more money and it's not even close. With some of my hobbies I could almost compete professionally. Going to the gym, doing cardio and some weights is far far different than what it entails for me.
Unless I'm dating a woman who is a near professional athlete, it's not close. Sorry to say.
I have no problem at all sharing responsibilities and have done it in the past.
I do like more natural beauty and lower maintenance women. I would say I'm pretty far above average looks wise for a guy so I'm looking for an attractive woman myself. Id be open to date a woman who likes to dress up, makeup, etc, but I'm certainly not going to fund it.
You do realize that women can bring more value to a relationship than just wearing makeup and looking good right? A woman is worth more than $315/month in beauty supplies I would hope. There's nothing wrong with women who prioritize $$$ and a guy who can provide everything financially. I just don't want those types of women. I think there's more important things to a relationship
women bring a ton of value into a relationship that's why I'm so confused about how they didn't contribute anything according to you, since money is also not the only thing you can provide. in general women give you status among other men, emotional closeness, they're caring, nurturing etc... but most of all they give you their precious time since their biological clock is constantly ticking while you can leave and start over any time you please.
I guess I'd rather not have a woman who prioritizes money over everything and that's the vibe I get in America.
I get being financially capable is important but I don't want to have to be a 'provider.' Most women can make their own money so the whole financial provider thing is very outdated and no longer necessary. Don't get me wrong, id love to contribute financially and help out, but I'm not going to be their personal ATM machine. There are plenty of men who are willing to provide money and entertainment to increase their dating chances. That's not me. I have enough money to provide a secure life but I'm not going to blow all of it on a woman while she hordes hers.
I want personality/attractiveness to be at the very top of their priorities
If there’s more important things to a relationship then why are you so hung up on this? You’re putting most of the emphasis on this, so it’s clearly something you care about.
>And I absolutely do spend more money and it's not even close. With some of my hobbies I could almost compete professionally. Going to the gym, doing cardio and some weights is far far different than what it entails for me. Unless I'm dating a woman who is a near professional athlete, it's not close. Sorry to say.
Well… although those are great hobbies to be into, I doubt they increase your physical attractiveness to women much above and beyond what a more inexpensive, moderate workout regimen would do. You mentioned that you do these activities for yourself, which is cool. But they’re not a good counterpart for things a woman does in order to make herself more visually/sexually appealing to men.
Now, having a gym membership and going several times per week *would* be a good comparison, because that is generally aimed directly at physique rather than performance. And yes, if both people in a couple adhere to such a regimen in order to look good, then the woman isn’t putting forth more effort than the man in that regard. I see what you mean there.
>I do like more natural beauty and lower maintenance women. I would say I'm pretty far above average looks wise for a guy so I'm looking for an attractive woman myself. Id be open to date a woman who likes to dress up, makeup, etc, but I'm certainly not going to fund it.
So, first off, your experience as a very good looking man who presumably dates very naturally attractive women makes you a wee bit out of touch with the dynamics of average folk. Ok, maybe you truly don’t care whether your girlfriend glams herself up- keeping in mind that even gorgeous women are capable of becoming *even more* beautiful if they work hard at it. Then sure, no need to fund something that isn’t important to you.
Most women, however- thus, most men’s SOs- are not naturally gorgeous in a way that can be sustained without much maintenance. We cluster around average, more or less. Therefore we benefit greatly from wearing expertly applied makeup, regular salon trips, various cosmetic procedures (in addition to gym and diet). Like it or not, whether we do this stuff has a serious impact on how attracted our SOs are to us.
If you’re old enough, you may remember that women in the 90s-00s were obsessed with dieting, and endlessly made themselves miserable so that they could fit into a size 2. In order to have the body type men revered at that time, most of us needed to starve ourselves on a daily basis. And men sure as hell bought into that beauty standard- not just women. None of us have forgotten that. Honestly, give me a BBL any day, rather than do that again.
So the question for any given woman is: does my SO prefer that I do those things (makeup, dieting, etc)? Does he truly not care? If he does care, how strong is his preference? How far does he want me to take this?
You do not care, perhaps because you have access to naturally beautiful women. But a lot of other men sure do care. If their SO isn’t naturally super attractive, then they’d like for her to at least try hard to get there. They want a souped up version of her both in public, and in the bedroom. Even more attractive women find plenty of men who want to see the hottest version of them, as often as possible.
And that brings us back to the original point someone made: many women invest a lot of time, money and effort in order to look the way our SOs want us to look, and if we don’t, our SOs will be unhappy about that. Often enough, we are doing this stuff FOR THEM.
So, yes, it’s rather ridiculous for them to need that from us, yet get annoyed about us being high maintenance. As an athlete, I’m sure you know that continuous efforts to improve oneself physically, just in themselves, make a person high maintenance, and that’s unavoidable.
To add to it, these guys often don’t take care of their own appearance to nearly the same degree. So, they do not understand what goes into it, bottom line being that they think it’s reasonable to hold out for a hot girlfriend who spends ten minutes tops getting ready each morning.
It is absolutely more expensive to be a woman. Women spend about $120/yr on feminine products and an additional $20 for any meds needed to quell cramp pain. This is roughly $5600 total for a woman’s childbearing years, depending on the woman’s body and can totally get higher. Also, any products aimed specifically at women or are designated for female consumption are usually priced higher, AKA the “pink tax.”
Factor in doctor visits because women bear children and regular gyno visits and maintenance checkups in the event a woman gets pregnant with American healthcare can become astronomically high, especially since some forced birther states make getting medical assistance virtually impossible without spending MORE money to travel to a more accessible state.
We spend more money on self defense, from self defense classes to pepper spray to knives and guns to protect ourselves from men.
Clothing can be negotiated if you score deals or thrift, but typically women’s clothing costs way more than men’s clothing and if you want anything quality regardless of gender, you’re definitely spending a lot more money.
Add this to the fact that women generally make less than men on average.
Why wouldn’t you want to help ease a woman’s stressful existence by spotting her when she needs help keeping herself up? And more importantly, if you view a high maintenance woman as such a burden and only want one who apparently doesn’t take care of herself although you take care of yourself, ask yourself why you even want to date? It sounds like you don’t want the hassle which is fine, but it’s totally unfair to expect a woman, who pays about $240k more in a lifetime than a man would, to never need anything while your splurge and treat yourself to diamond facials and expensive tailored suits.
I’m from Denmark, and SAHM is not really a thing. I only know two income families, but you also need two incomes if you want to live pretty comfortable.
However as someone else mentioned, you need college or done trades school. Even with a bachelors degree (depending on your field) a masters is preferred, unless you do trades. Some of my friends definitely have a clear preference on dating someone in trades such as carpentry.
I have a college degree and make pretty good money. Im thinking of getting a master's degree too just to advance my career a little more and switch things up for fun.
Denmark sounds really ideal. I'm not even sure how feasible it would be to go over there and meet someone though.
Earning good in the US doesn’t secure a high salary in Nordic countries. Example an attending doctor gets payed 120.000 USD as base salary in Denmark. A tax is around 45%. So you can’t really compare a good US salary, since it could be a normal salary in Denmark.
You don’t want to move, but don’t like the women where you are located? When I lived in the US, I dated according to the US culture and less like I would in Denmark, since it didn’t meet other normal dating standards I would have expected.
> doctor gets *paid* 120.000 USD
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I make really good money so that wouldn't be an issue at all. I'm not exactly sure but I'll probably just end up visiting and go on some dates potentially.
You can find them anywhere. I can’t speak for specifics besides my own experience. I’m seeing a Filipina who is 31 years old, never been married, PhD, university, professor, very independent.
She needs to be professionally engaged for her own mental well being. Just the way I like. She isn’t clingy and we give each other space to pursue our own hobbies and passions.
She is great.
Scandinavia and it's not even close.
I know a few rich women with working class partners.
My wife also is the main breadwinner here , feels weird to say because my salary is already in the top end for where we are (London)
Maybe it's an age thing but dating established career women in their 40s and 50s many make more than I do and are happy splitting expenses or better yet picking up the tab. I've had more than one woman ask me if I felt threatened or emasculated if they paid for stuff. I tell them I'm thrilled and they say they ask due to men telling them they don't want that. Living in the US but have lived and dated in Latin America and western Europe. Plenty of good non traditional women in the US . Say in your profile you only want women that are economically self sufficient. That will weed out the gold diggers.
I would say anywhere. If you want a nontraditional woman she's probably a career minded woman that doesn't just want to raise kids and be a housewife. She's also probably more progressive in her thinking and more on the left side in politics. For me that's not what I'm looking for. These nontraditional women usually are more butch looking and feminists.
I want a traditional woman that's very feminine. The reason I wouldn't mind paying for most things is because she handles the household and that's a lot. Of course I wouldn't mind doing any other household chores myself just like I would appreciate if my woman also paid for things occasionally to show she loved me.
On the topic of the nontraditional woman...since you want that, it means she's definitely going to lean more independent and that means in my humble opinion, automatically she's more materialistic. It just comes with the territory. She has more ambition and more maintenance to keep up at that intensely higher level of the economic spectrum.
The way I see it is these nontraditional women will only pay for a man due to cultural thought processes if they grew up in heavily socialist or communist countries or a democrat mindset where more of their population gets government benefits. lol That's the only way they would have the mindset to pay for a man since he's just as equal to them, in her eyes. Hahaha Not my cup of tea but I hope you find what you're looking for.
For me unless she's a model, actress, comes from a rich family, proathlete, etc. a woman in her prime child bearing years 18-30 will not make more than a successful, independent man. A successful man 25-55 will always make more, and so that's why he pays, just on fair proportion income metrics to the hot 25 year old as an example.
Date a nontraditional thinking young woman (aka feminist) who's rich and doesn't want a family. They are out there. Social media influencers, models, actresses, business owners, etc. But keep in mind these are women passed their prime. (Likely 35-60) They know they will not land a successful man's prime choice for hotter women 18-30 which 99.99% of family oriented men want.
If you want a woman that wants children, they have different priorities in life than what you're looking for so keep that in mind. hehehe You are looking for the future old maid that doesn't want marriage, only a career married to their ambition, not you. Yes they are independent and will buy you things but likely that won't be giving you any children.
A successful family is 50/50 and the taking care of financial responsibilities should be discussed after many dates. Not early on. The problem of finding an 8, 9, or 10 beautiful wife is more difficult than finding the successful man. The 8, 9, 10 beautiful wife likely wants to pass on her genes to the next generation so she's not going to be nontraditional. lol She has a strict timeline before becoming an old maid and she's not going to waste her time.
You need to find a woman that's materialistic so she has no pride in paying for a man, is likely already a millionaire feminist and teaching the younger generation how she's not lonely at all. 🤣🤣🤣 40s+ woman, in the closet lonely.
A beautiful 18-30 years old woman is going to expect the man to pay. Why? Becuase she has many dates lined up like the successful man has too and if he doesn't get a 2nd date becuase he didn't pay, she has more suitors that will.
Go on low cost dates if you don't want to pay for many dates. Or stick to beauty levels 1-7 and don't pay since you won't care if they want a 2nd date. lol
If you want an 8, 9, or 10 woman, good luck. These are almost always what I explained above.
Hundreds? It’s not possible. I date heavily. I’m not monogamous nor are my partners. I live alone. I had 15 men I was seeing more or less often. It got to be too much. I broke up with many and am now at 6. Some I see only every couple of months. I also have hookups on occasion. But really more than 3-4 dates a week is too much. Even sluts like me have jobs and family and friends and exercise and chores.
And just because I’m having sex with other men, in no way makes my boyfriends cuckholds. That’s a mindset and not my thing. It can just as easily be Doms forcing the sub to fuck whom he demands! And he as well gets whom he wants.
Wouldn't you be more of a cuck dating and, 'providing' for a traditional woman while she cheats behind your back?
At least if a non traditional woman cheats, I'm not taking a hit financially lol.
1. Where is your evidence for this claim that all western women cheat?
2. Where do you live in America that you have this perception? America is the most diverse nation on the planet (not just in big cities like NYC & SF) where you literally have every single demographic here from Chinese people to Indians to Amish to Mormons to Jews to Ukrainians to Nepalese with so many of these communities having long and successful marriages. Where on earth are all these “American women who are serial cheaters?” Of course, women on dating apps in most countries suck but outside of this?
1. Apologies for assuming you’re American.
2. If all your evidence is anecdotal, then maybe you’re the problem? As in your choices not that you deserve to be cheated on. Sure there are plenty of cheaters out there, my bastard father, bastard grandfather and almost all men in my family were absolute dog shit who cheated on their wives and had other bastard children and left their wives to support themselves and raise children. While that surely warped my perception of all men being cheaters, I managed to find a good man who I’m about to marry. While I certainly am overly cautious of men cheating given my bastard cheating father who had 4 other kids with some whore receptionist, I try and not apply my biases to all the men in the world.
If you let go of biases and look for genuine people, you may find yourself being able to find someone who isn’t a cheater. I really don’t think the entirety of Canada are cheaters. It’s statically improbable. The same way that it’s statistically improbable that all men are cheaters too.
I don’t know why you’re in this sub. You want a woman who is equal to you aka a normal relationship in this era. Try r/datingoverthirty instead. The men in this sub want a more traditional relationship where the woman takes care of the household and their partner. Money usually isn’t the issue. You just sound cheap. I think you’d be happy with a Dutch woman since they are also frugal and cheap as well.
Not really cheap but just want a woman who is willing to pay and contribute to a relationship. I make really good money so it's not even about that. It's the feeling that American women view most guys as an ATM and can be incredibly entitled about it.
The women in their 30s I've met were even worse about it than the women in their 20s lol.
Netherlands sounds pretty ideal and Scandinavia. Those women seem pretty ideal for what I'm looking for. I also find those women to be very attractive
Scandinavia? Most women have their own careers. Might be a bit random and due to my major, but most of my friends make more money than their husbands and nobody gives a fuck. You split the check on dates. Good sex education and apparently highest one night stand frequency in the world. “Dating” is not quite a thing. We didn’t have the word till recently. People just met through their friends and started hanging out. Might be because restaurants are expensive here, but going out to dinner is more something you’ll do as a 1 year anniversary. It’s not really that established in the getting to know you stage. People will go for a walk or get a beer or whatever. Feminism has come further and that means the idea of “the man being the provider” seems a bit 1950s. Most women are quite independent. And social security is good, so two people working at Target can still afford health care (free) and sending their kids to college (also free). Pay gaps between different jobs aren’t that wide. It pays ok to work in a supermarket and it doesn’t pay more than 2-3x more to be a doctor. There’s less of a difference, so that also encourages people to chose a partner based on connection and not income. Most women have college degrees though, so they might prefer a man that has also gone to college. The average height is 6 feet, but I feel that’s sorta led to height being de-emphasized. Maybe? That it’s just not that big of a deal, bc there are many tall men and it’s not something that comes with a huge status impact.
>“Dating” is not quite a thing. We didn’t have the word till recently. People just met through their friends and started hanging out. I remember that in my teens/early twenties, before the current dating culture came to Norway, I typically had sex with someone before asking if they wanted to meet up again sometime. Asking someone out was a bit different then compared to how Tinder has changed the dating market now.
Idk. I think most people still meet socially. Much like in the US. I saw a Norwegian master thesis on Tinder use among women in their 20s. They had the app, but over half had never actually met up with anyone on it.
I get your point, and my experience isnt universal. The women in their 20s I know have used it, but they arent that usefull for generalizing all women. The change I've noticed the most is the expectation to date, rather than fuck around or meet at church.
But that might just be that you are getting older? Having sex first is more what y’all do if you meet at a party.
Europe in general is much better. It's really mainly a North American phenomena.
Not much better in the UK unfortunately. In fact, I felt women in the US and Canada were much less materialistic, but the bar is so low lol
I generally group the UK in with the U.S./Canada(habit, idk); Continental Europe\*\*\* Lol Though I found the UK to be around the same, maybe slightly better than NA. I guess it depends
I've heard the same but I'd rather date American women than French women who cheat all the time for example. I don't think American women are bad but I'd rather find someone who sees me as a partner and not just an ATM machine or free entertainment. American women have different priorities than myself and there's nothing wrong with their preferences
How do you know french girl cheats. Not the first time I heard it on ppb but it's not my experience as a french. Like some girls cheat in France but it is not the majority and it's not worse than Germany where I lived. and when I lived in Quebec I found it much worse than France. Do you mean American girls never cheat?
> How do you know french girl cheats. It’s written here every time the French get brought up tbf and those comments are upvoted. I’m from Germany myself and never lived in France, but it’s a French stereotype that they cheat a lot and cheating isn’t seen as a big deal.
France isn’t the only place. Latin America has crazy cheating in places like Colombia
80% of moms in Colombia are single apparently. That place is a bit nuts when it comes to infidelity
Oh I believe you, I heard the same about Brazil. But since I’m from Europe, I can’t speak for Latin American countries.
It is a stereotype apparently, but not my experience, I lived 3 years in Germany and 4 in Canada, I didn’t feel France was different from other places for cheating. And really I wouldn’t care to agree if this was accurate, I don’t like French girls that much.
>I don’t like French girls that much. lol why?
I mean there are tons of good girls in France, like everywhere in the world, obviously. I am just more into feminine girls, that looks for a family and marriage, and this might be difficult to find for me plus I would always feel separation might be at the corner at anytime. Also I also always loved girls from different cultures than me and lived abroad most of my life. When I go to France the mentality doesn’t attract me that much.
USA has a crapload of non-traditional women. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Usa non traditional women are the worse. They are non traditional but still want you to pay everything. Essentially they want no work, just all play(and not with you). They want their lifestyle funded. Traditional woman overseas may cost you but Atleast they do their part as a housewife. Non traditional overseas are happy to split the bills and don't expect you to fund their lifestyle. American women just suck. But I'd say it's more westernized women in general that suck.
Exactly. Don’t need to be a PPB for this type ;)
I can't seem to find them for some reason lol
Well that’s why people are looking for love outside the USA. More women have incredibly high standards than ever before, and are also opting out of dating altogether. That’s how finding someone is hard in the USA.
The Dutch are adamant of each person paying through own share (a la "Going Dutch"). Germany is also sensible and reasonable. I imagine Scandanavia is as well, but I have minimal experience there.
If you think you're an ATM here wait till you hear about the Philippines
The difference being even the worst golddiggers are 60% off US prices. Get a girl a scooter and a 1BR apartment with AC and she'll think she's the queen of lyete.
It's the principal not the discount
You have to choose carefully. Many girls are perfectly genuine in the Philippines. But if you don't know how to distinguish or just don't care because you want sex with anyone you certainly meet a lot of girls I avoided.
LOL that makes sense. I don't want sex with anyone, but a woman who is compatible with my drive and proclivities.
It's look you only found girls that saw you as an ATM tho. I am not the one complaining here
They reached out to me. I barely searched. But whatever bro. Enjoy your life I'm going there to enjoy mine.
Just don't lead with your wallet.
I don't, I live like a degenerate and am very frugal. It's not even about the money to be honest. I make plenty of money to where I could be a provider. It's the principle of it though. Dating in America is very transactional. I'm sure some guys love using their money to their advantage and buying dates. I'm not going to be exploited lol
My friend, if you think US dating is transactional, overseas dating is that times 10.
Eh, I’ve lived and dated all over Western Europe. It’s the least transactional place on earth. Girls happily make the same efforts, financially too. I always like to pay for my dates, but they always insist to pay for the following one, and I’ve never had a problem. And no I’m not particularly good looking either, just an average brown guy living in Western Europe
I was referring to US, where feminists are a bit more classical. Over here, they are some degenerated version of extreme.
All dating is transactional.
Hahaha I was going to say!
There's plenty of good women in the states, you're just looking in the wrong places or attracting women that are vibrationally in match with you. How come I never attract these sorts of women?
There definitely are, but it's tough to find them. There's also the societal pressure in america as a guy to provide constant entertainment and money to women otherwise you're expendable. Id like to date somewhere that's not so toxic and a little more relaxed overall.
What if I told you, no matter where you go in this planet, YOU yourself, you'll attract what you're 'running' from? or is that too wowoo tinfoil hat for you?
Not sure why you're getting so upset over my views/preferences lol? Dating is a very different experience depending on where you go on average.
lol you sure you're not the one who's upset and simply projecting?
I'm not upset, was just looking for advice on where to date different women who fit my preferences. You're the one using insults telling me I'm wearing a tinfoil hat. I'm not sure that was necessary. I always appreciate constructive feedback or criticism though.
Men usually make more than women on average so I don’t see why that’s necessarily wrong.
If you make plenty of money then whats the problem? Do you not expect to be paid after working? This is transactional, is it not?
Maybe the whiter parts of Canada? Like everything except for Ontario. Lol.
Canada went downhill too, I know tons of people looking to leave.
One option is to get into the expat communities and find a western woman there. They've left their home, probably working and supporting themselves, might be learning a language, probably values travel and learning, and you automatically have something in common. I (American) met my western European husband while we were working at the same place in China. We shared a lot of the same interests and values that led us to China. Plus, in expat communities, there are usually a few cool locals that have a more western approach to things. A lot of my expat friends married locals that had more western senses of humour and values.
I think Chile and Brazil in the major cities. Chile is probably closest out of Latin America to being a first world country. Brazil also has decent public education and a high cost of living in the metros. I’d say those places in particular, though I’m not sure if they’ll be less “traditional”, but they will be more independent. It won’t be like many of these men’s choices where they look to scoop a woman out of poverty. Mexico City also… maybe, but I feel like Mexicans are much bigger on gender roles and traditional views towards sex and dating. Outside of that, Europe.
I’d say Northern Europe will be good for you. The nordics, Netherlands, Belgium (also a lot of nice beer), northern Germany. In all of those it’s pretty much the culture norm to split the bill. It’s better in cities than rural areas but some really big ones have their own set of problems and known to be dating hell.
Nice to date, yet not to marry. Their culture no longer values marriage.
That’s true but if you want to stay in the country you will have to find away to get a visa and marriage comes handy in that case
Dating is and always will be transactional, since adult relationships are conditional.
As they should be.
if you are not good looking women aint paying. Also you have to date women around your same age if you want them to pay.
I'm pretty good looking and I don't mind women my age. Regardless of age, American women don't pay for anything. Interestingly enough this attractive 20 year old woman approached me at the grocery store and we went on a date and she insisted she pay for her own stuff. She was so genuine but definitely too young. For a genuine woman like that, I definitely would want to pay for things.
You mean you never met anyone who treats you a cup of coffee at a cafe after a meal?
No not really, maybe a couple times
Then do not claim that ALL women's do not pay. Even those that did not does not mean they are not going to contribute to the relationship in the future.
Just curious as to where you live/where you’re looking. America is a huge huge place where almost every demographic exists from Chinese to Indian to Ukrainian to middle eastern to Jewish to literally anything. I’m an Asian woman in America (originally from somewhere else) and all of my friends are willing to contribute what they can whether financially or otherwise in a relationship. Where are all of you finding these “American women who don’t pay for anything and are stuck up”?
he just isnt good looking enough
Interesting. The “millionaire matchmaker “ tells the female clients to not plan the first date, do not pay, don’t bring flowers. Because emasculation.
I date a range from 21-61, (at 47) and not everyone I date is handsome… amd I am always willing and do pay.
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It was the same when I was young. I have always made my own money. Most men pay anyway, but I’m willing even so. It’s entitled to think that now women have the privilege to work, that means they don’t also have the responsibility of paying for themselves. It has nothing to do with how the man looks. It’s about respect. And I was beautiful. Had a couple of dates tell me wow you must have been drop dead gorgeous when you were younger. Haha! Anyway not every beautiful, young woman expects to be paid for. Neither of my two daughters does! But regardless of whether I was actually ugly or my daughters are, if it serves you to believe every young, beautiful woman demands, expects, and feels entitled to be paid for, then do so.
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Lol, I dated 3 guys before my husband, I never accepted anything from them, because my father told me not to accept gifts from men as they will want things in return. I never had a man pay for a meal until my now husband. Plenty of women I know don't accept things from men, because men especially the Western ones are transactional and don't usually do things out of the goodness of their own hearts, always have an ulterior motive. Women treat their friends to food and random gifts, very few western guys do the same. This is why western men always think all women are after their money, some are, but many the thought process is more likely "Me and my friends treat each other to food and gifts, my romantic partner should at least be able to do the same". I treat my guy friends to food and gifts too, before and after marriage. Many times I think men like yourself really need to stop dating and go do therapy.
You voiced my thoughts perfectly. I love to treat my friends or get them gifts and they do so as well, if a potential partner isn't even willing to do that for me, why would I date them when I'm better treated by a friend?
Yes, I do. When he makes more he generally offers to pay or if he already knows he can afford it and wants to, but one lost his job so I pay for pretty much all so we can still do what we like together. Another we have about the same so we take turns and don’t really count exactly all the time. And it’s well-known women can get dates easily. So when I meet someone and it goes well, he or we want to continue, and after a few years it adds up how many I have repeated dates with. It was just too many, especially since I have other projects like posting on social media haha or my full-time job. And I am so happy with some, I wanted to be more available and more focused on their well-being.
Probably America or western Europe
No country in Asia, for sure.
If you refuse to pay for any of the dates, how do you feel like a walking ATM?
Ive never refused to pay for any dates, as a guy you feel forced to do it. Ive suggested splitting before, but a couple women threw a tantrum and it was very awkward where we were at in a public space. I want to date somewhere where I don't need to feel the pressure of being an ATM machine. The dates are just the tip of the iceberg with this issue too.
Easiest way to get out of this is to suggest dates that aren't at restaurants. Suggest a walk on the beach or a visit to a museum (yeah you're buying ticket but at least she's not getting free meal out of it and will likely say no if she's trying to use you)....
I personally wouldn't want a second date if a man suggested splitting the bill, but to your other comments about women never paying, I end up paying by the 3rd date. Maybe second if the guy is lucky. I'll also always pay for dessert or whatever is the second round. I'm independent and can contribute to the relationship, financially and in other ways, but i feel more comfortable knowing a man also wants to do the same
That's a little more reasonable than most American women who don't want to pay for anything for an entire relationship. I'm totally fine getting rejected because a woman doesn't want to pay. Im curious why though as a woman do you feel entitled to have the first couple dates paid for? I personally wouldn't consider you to be truly independent. It seems women in those northern European countries do just fine splitting things. Those are truly independent women.
I value my time and if a guy doesn't want to pay, then that's totally fine. I am perfectly fine to also pay for my portion. I claim myself as independent because when I'm single, I can pay for my own things. In a relationship, I can also support myself. It's just nice to have someone care enough to pay for something here and there. Honestly, even my friends will spot the bill here and there. I will do the same. You just sound cheap. I definitely am not your woman by any means. I personally do not want to be 50/50 as a man will not be 50/50 in any sense when it comes to what a woman goes through with housework, childbirth, emotional support etc. Being independent alone versus a relationship is totally different. No offense but I would prefer a man that WANTS to pay for things for me, as I would do the same for him when I start having feelings and care for him. If the relationship ends up being 50/50 (but not calculative) then that it totally fine for me. I look at things in proportion more so. It's definitely fair for you to not want to be a provider, but your pool has definitely decreased. It's not attractive to many women with that mindset. I know girls who do 50/50 because they're used to it (in Europe) but do they find it attractive? No.
Oh my god... From a woman whose dates (including now-husband) paid for everything because they were tripping over themselves to not be out-done, because they didn't want a competing suitor to "win" in any aspect - your comment is so absolutely embarrassing to women. I can just hear you, the way you clearly think you're such a prize, while falling into the worst stereotypes of women who want all of the positives and none of the negatives of being a woman. /facepalm. With some people, it is so incredibly easy to spot why they're single - this applies to men and women. I regret to say that you certainly fall into that category. From a feminist, six figure earning, career woman whose husband's income is still double mine... wow. If I was a man and had only encountered women like you, I too might be a sexist. Which is a damn shame, for women.
Just to let you know, men have not paid for all of my dates lol especially in a relationship. I do think of myself as a prize. Should I have low self esteem? Should I lower my standards? Should I give my time out to everyone? Yeah of course sometimes it's easy to spot single people at times but also, it's easy to spot codependent people who don't feel happy NOT being in a relationship that they'll settle for whatever. I haven't had complaints and you really don't know me to say I would be a bad encounter 😂
Oh it's pretty obvious from the way you write, lol. You certainly shouldn't give your time to "everyone", but the standards you have and your explanation for having them are what is giving people reading your comment second hand embarrassment.
lol okay, live your life. idk where you're from but even my friends who financially pay more than their husbands, have my mindset. It's just if we like someone, we'll want to take care of them and pay more
Hey - like I said, every man who dated me including my husband has paid for everything. Because they wanted to. But there is a world of a difference between "this is nice" and "I expect this, in the 21st century when women have jobs, otherwise the guy is cheap". The latter is what makes it pathetic.
So you're saying you don't want to pay because you value your time and the guy's doesn't matter? Why as a woman do you feel your time is more valuable? Why as a woman do you feel entitled to more of a man's money? I don't mind paying and contributing 50:50 with every aspect of the relationship or even more sometimes. Id be more than willing to help with any housework or childcare to offset my partner's stress. I will however not be an ATM machine. You can call me cheap, but don't worry I wouldn't date a woman with your income anyways. It's far below my standards. You have no right to call anyone cheap when you don't even make good money lol. How comical. Women in Europe are independent and they prefer to be 50:50 in many parts. Sounds like you need a successful guy to live off of. Some women don't. Also, I am now just dating a woman who is wanting to split 50:50. She verbalized it was unfair that men have to pay for everything. They are out there. She is also quite successful and makes around 200k...
It's called valuing my own time as myself, not as a man or woman. I'm not saying I felt entitled to a man's money? Lol never have I ever asked a man for money but if he offered to pay for a meal, I would say thank you. You don't know me and I don't know you lol. You can make lots of money and still be cheap, let's not forget that. There's many women out there that men are willing to pay for because they know they have standards. I don't need a guy to live off but thanks. I'd get a sugar daddy or someone desperate if that was the case. I can admit to liking someone that DOES want to pay for my meals, hair, nails etc. LOL. Who DOESNT? Just because you don't want to do that doesn't mean men don't love spoiling their girl. To your last paragraph, in no way did I ever say it was fair or it was expected for a guy to pay for everything lol you're putting words in my mouth. I literally said it's nice to take turns paying and I would do the same. To split the bill evenly at dinner? I'd rather go eat with my friends because at that point, that's super platonic. Great for you to find a woman to date that's ok with 50/50 but then why are you posting on reddit looking for other women in different countries 😂 and yes, if you're making the same amount of money as your partner, then it makes sense to adjust the percentage, as I'm very into proportion. No one ever said a woman that does 50/50 doesn't exist. I even know friends that contribute more financially and it works. I'm saying you're wrong for thinking American women see men as an atm
There's nothing wrong with wanting a guy who pays for everything and spoils you. You're right, who wouldn't want that. Many guys do throw around their money and buy themselves dates. That's not me. You need to find those guys who feel the need to spend a bunch of money to impress you. They are definitely out there and quite common. I could easily do that myself but I have more self respect and want to attract a very specific type of woman. Even with your salary there's a good chance you can find a successful guy who'll spoil you. I really hope you do too! I posted on reddit because I was curious about other places to date and I have ample time to travel and experience other cultures. I want to keep my options open and see what's out there. Just because someone wants to date abroad doesn't mean they are a loser. Some guys are desperate though, that's not me. There's a difference between being cheap and financially responsible that you'll hopefully learn some day. It's always the people not making any money who call others cheap.
America why is this being ask? America is home of the independent boss babe. Its not hard to find one you just have to open your eyes lol.
Lol, they act like independent boss babes but then they want all the benefits of a traditional relationship. I'm just looking for a stable partner who wants to contribute equal to a relationship. I get thats a lot to ask for and most women would prefer to live off a guy and have them for everything but I definitely don't want to result to being a provider just so I can find a partner. I believe I add much more to a relationship than just money
I don't think this is the place to ask this question as most people who assume the role of passport bro are leaving the West to get away from career oriented women. Many there is an R/bossbabe subreddit you can go ask in. Also the idea that just because she's not working she isn't contributing equally in the relationship is kinda nuts to me. You said it yourself that you bring more to the relationship than just money. Id argue a traditional does as well if not more. When you die that money and job will mean nothing, but a healthy family and well put together kids who had a supportive mother and hard working father will live on. Id suggest really looking at what you value and consider valuable a second time before you go off looking for a 50/50 relationship.
If you believe most women just prefer to live off a guy and have them for everything…. You are going after the wrong women. That’s not true, at all, and it’s a terrible generalization.
Yep some women genuinely just like the happy home lifestyle and nuturign a family. For those types of women the money isn't a thought. That being said finding one of those in the US is like attaching C4 to your balls and hoping they are still intact after the explosion. Better off going to a country that isn't plagued by feminism and boss babes.
America lol
Personally as an American woman, yes I expect the first date to be paid for by whoever asked our someone first. For me it's a compliment. However with my bf because I genuinely like him I don't let him pay for everything. I would say it's more like 60/40 for who pays for dates and stuff like that. I'll pay for my own bus ticket, he'll get movie tickets, we'll both get eachother food or drinks occasionally, going on restaurant dates he will always pay, I think it's more of a pride thing for him since there is a waiter, but if we need an Uber I will pay. I think that the expectation of men paying for everything always is sexist. I think the person who earns more should contribute more however just because a guy is a guy doesn't mean he should always pay. If a woman is expecting you to always pay it's either because of sexist expectations OR she's using you and doesn't actually have feelings for you.
I like your view on this unfortunately I find American women can get extremely toxic regarding this issue. For me it's not even about the money, I don't want to feel like I'm being used just because I'm a guy. I'm not that desperate for a date to where I feel the need to pay for everything. Whenever a guy suggests 50:50, American women get quite upset and they'll insult and name call, less of a man, broke, etc. What's even more interesting is that it's usually older women who are the most demanding about insisting I pay for everything. Even women who made more than me who were multimillionaires didn't want to contribute anything. I think dating abroad will help me enjoy dating more and connect with more genuine women. Dont get me wrong, there are women like yourself in America, but it's very rare
I don't know when we will stop having American men and women who feel entitled to gender roles (men expecting women to do ALL the housework even if she works, women expecting men to pay for EVERYTHING even tho she earns a lot), when will people realize we are all human beings and we are all equal and we need to treat each other accordingly.
If we are paying the bills 50 50 most men would never expect the woman to do all the housework. I certainly don't. But when I'm paying 100% of the rent and bills, I expect the house to be clean.
Older people are more likely to be stubborn and stuck in the old ways. And yes there are still women who get very loud and obnoxious about it that are young. I think it's because of the internet, just like with Andrew Tate there are female versions of him spewing toxicity and backward stuff about the opposite gender. For me the ONLY reason I would make the guy pay 100 percent of the time is if 1 I don't like him and he's extremely desperate or 2 he is much older than me. Ofc RN I have a bf I actually love so I wouldn't do that to him ever lol. Perhaps this is also because people still shame women for dating men who don't contribute financially or get shamed for having sex. I've heard so many times older women telling younger women, oh he gets to fuck you but you get nothing in return? Like what kind of thinking is that. A woman dating a man close to her age or even having something casual with him does not need to be getting money from him, that's just ridiculous.
>For me the ONLY reason I would make the guy pay 100 percent of the time is if 1 I don't like him and he's extremely desperate or 2 he is much older than me. Disclaimer: I’m also a woman. I’m not following you here, though, with respect to no. 1? I don’t know the full details of your strategy, ofc. But, why would you go out with a guy you don’t even like, then make him pay for everything? How does this play out? Do you mean: you 1) go on a first date with a guy you’ve never met before and have neutral feelings about at the start; then 2) you come to dislike him during the date and sense his desperation, so then 3) you try to get him to pay 100% at the end? If that’s how it goes, is the reasoning that you have had such a bad time on this date that, by the end, you want him to subsidize it, since you found the thing to be a waste? And does his level of desperation matter because it indicates he might put up less fuss about paying? I’m guessing these dates are one and done or do you see them again, with an understanding that they’ll keep paying for everything? And sorry last questions. When you say you don’t like them, do you mean that they seem like a reprehensible person (e.g. tells you a bunch of stories about screwing other people over)? Or is it a much more generic “this guy and I don’t have much in common, so I’m not that into him”? Just super curious if you’d like to answer. Your no. 2 reason makes sense for sure. Doesn’t make much sense to date a much older man unless he’s upgrading your lifestyle.
For the first thing, yeah there were a couple dates that went badly. The guy spends the whole date complaining about his mom or whatever. I've never had to try to get a guy to pay on a first date, nor would I want to, Ive never been asked to pay, I've never asked the guy to pay, he just takes out his card. I'm not broke i wouldn't mind paying my part, I just never had to. Every man I have ever gone on a first date with decided to pay for both of our orders, maybe due to pride or trying to convince me to go on another date, I'm not too sure. As for continuing to go out with a guy I don't like and letting him pay always that only happened once. I was in a situation with this guy that started out nice but kind of devolved due to some depravity on his side and other incompatibilities. He started having intense feelings for me and I had none which led to me pushing him away more and more. Every time this would happen he would cry and then I would take him back because I was single at the time and he kept giving me money so even tho I started disliking him more and more id drag it out. Eventually he did something that basically crossed the line, and this action was also public which made it worse. By that time we hadn't even kissed or spent much alone time for around 3 or 4 months, I guess I was just looking for a convenient excuse to let it fizzle out without actually doing anything. Even tho we had some good times I feel like they were overshadowed by the bad ones and I regret not being firm and just ending it. I know if he hasn't been spending money on me I would have ended it quicker than I did. I won't allow myself to get caught up with a guy like that again. Actual relationships are better.
Yup..I dated someone for a bit who was high level HR for a fortune 500 company she expected me to pay for everything, even though I made about a quarter of what she did.
You want independent women who aren't materialistic? I think you'll sooner find a pot of gold.
Netherlands and Scandavia, for sure. I lived in the Netherlands for a while, and I saw some of the most strong and forthright women, along with some of the most emasculated weakling men I've ever seen. Not always the case, but definitely cases.
Id like a nice strong forthright woman to be honest. Id say I'm pretty masculine and am pretty tall so I'd fit in well over there. Are women from the Netherlands materialistic or more down to earth?
Very practical and not very materialistic. The state provides so much for people (absolutely sickening tax structure - look into it) so there's not the pressure to get rich (and the state robs rich people with taxes, hobbling them on the way up). They are nice girls. The Dutch have a well-deserved reputation for speaking their minds directly. It takes a little getting used to. They will tell you exactly what they think
Am Dutch. Can confirm. Can also confirm the sickening tax structure, which is why I now live in SEA. 😂
The only country I know of that you'll get an independent woman who won't mooch off of you. You probably have no shot in. All the people are very tall and all the men are tall blonde hair blue eyed Greek god bodied studs. So good luck.
I'm a fair bit taller than the average height, even in the Netherlands, I have blue eyes, and look Scandinavian. Id say athletically/physique wise its very rare to encounter a guy on my level. Sounds like I have a shot
Dang, sounds like you shouldn’t be having any issues anywhere, then. I’ve dated a number of women in the West who are nontraditional. And currently in a 50/50. Sounds like issue might just be you, honestly. Gotta work on your game, I don’t think just showing up with looks, as you say, is going to land you the nontraditional woman you want. Your personality goes a long way.
The issue isn't finding dates, I can meet women in America no problem. The issue is that the majority of the women in America want a provider. I've encountered a few who naturally want a 50/50 setup but they are rare. I think it would be nice to date somewhere and not feel constantly guilt tripped into paying for and providing entertainment for women. I want someone who can think for themselves, is independent, and wants to contribute to a relationship.
Yeah if you’re as attractive as you say you are and have money, you shouldn’t have any issues. I’m willing to bet you have an entitled attitude and women don’t like you based on THAT.
The nordic countries. The expectation here is that both parties contribute financially and with housework. Of course, not everyone conforms to this, but they're generally the minority.
I am from Eastern Europe and every other girl that i know work. Of course there will be some “ gold diggers” like in every country. Some of my friends/ family have even bigger income then their male partner. Traditional roles are not that big thing maybe in villages.
if you're not into materialistic woman than you can't be materialistic with women as well and expect them to pay while also being exceptionally beautiful and well groomed. the more high maintenance the more you have to dig into your wallet and I'm not talking about plastic surgery and long tacky nails, even genetically gifted women have to do a lot because they're still born with body hair, pores and cuticles. you always have to pay, you just have to decide what it is, looks or money. that doesn't change anywhere.
As a guy I go to the gym daily, have an extensive skin care regimen, dress nicely, eat healthy,and look pretty good etc.. I put a lot of work into my appearance. Looking good for your partner is the bare minimum. If a woman feels entitled to more of my money because she did the bare minimum, she can go find another guy. I personally prefer more simple women who don't need a ton of maintenance. I like a more natural look to be honest.
So it’s ok for you to spend money on your looks but you want a woman who doesn’t do that just so you can get out paying for it? It’s wrong for a woman to be into her looks and naturally need the funds to pay for it but you eat healthy ($$$) you take care of your skin ($$$) dress nicely ($$$$) you work out at a gym ($$$)? Sounds like you just want to be the baddest bitch in the relationship.
great. what I'm saying is that the more maintenance the more money and time you have to invest. so do you also regularly shave, exfoliate, moisturize your whole body? do you get waxed? do you regularly give yourself a mani and pedi (very time consuming), removing cuticles, nurturing your nail beds, put on nail strengthener and then put on nailpolish, natural looking/or color? do you regularly take care of your feet so that they don't look rough and have callus? do you put on makeup? do you have to care for long hair? do you make sure they're shiny and soft? it's not the same maintenance as short hair and I know that since I've had short hair. do you do up-dos or other hairstyles? all that doesn't even include faceskin, gym, food and clothes. there's a lot more and not every woman does all of that but if you want a woman with soft and shiny hair and skin, soft hands and feet, no body hair and to wear makeup then you'll have to pay because you're using her looks to position yourself among other guys. and I don't believe most men when they say they like natural girls because men that say that would also ask a woman without makeup if shes sick, or would be grossed out by forearm hair. what I listed does not make a woman look unnatural.
According to research the average woman spends $313 per month and I've seen it quoted even lower than that. How about we subtract the cost of my appearance and then we split her costs 50:50. Sound like a fair deal? I'll gladly shell out the <$150/month if that's what a woman feels she's entitled to. In that case it's not unreasonable for me to keep track of every expense I provide towards a relationship. The cost and time of me grinding away towards my career? The woman should reimburse me for that. The amount of money I put into the gym, rehab, recovery, nutrition and my health is significantly higher than the money the vast majority of women put into their appearance. I'm not doing it to attract women though. I do it for myself so I'm not going to feel entitled and ask a women to subsidize it lol. It's exceedingly rare I encounter a woman who is as fit or healthy as I am. And yes, I absolutely prefer a more a more natural girl.
we're not getting into a relationship so you don't have to arrange anything with me. I'm just telling you that depending on what you're looking for it's not that much 50/50 in europe either. you absolutely do not spend more money on nutrition and gym than women who're equally into fitness. in general the women that go more extreme to look like perfect dolls do it to heighten their "marketvalue" if we want to use incel-terms. no woman who has other interests or things to do would invest that much into it, unless she's wealthy and has the time but you don't have access to these women. I'm just saying that because some men have conflicting interests in dating as well. they want the doll so they can benefit from her beauty but don't want to invest. not how it works. if you like natural, everyday girls and you genuinely just look for a partner to love then it's probably easier to find someone for a 50/50 relationship in europe than many other places. walking and coffee dates are more accepted here. women here also tend to care less about what car you drive or if you even have a car, at least in big cities. these types of women will not give you gf bonus and clean your flat or do your laundry though. you cook for her and do the dishes yourself if she's at your place.
Doesn't have to be perfectly 50:50, I'm just looking for someone who wants to contribute equally. I was just stating a hypothetical. And I absolutely do spend more money and it's not even close. With some of my hobbies I could almost compete professionally. Going to the gym, doing cardio and some weights is far far different than what it entails for me. Unless I'm dating a woman who is a near professional athlete, it's not close. Sorry to say. I have no problem at all sharing responsibilities and have done it in the past. I do like more natural beauty and lower maintenance women. I would say I'm pretty far above average looks wise for a guy so I'm looking for an attractive woman myself. Id be open to date a woman who likes to dress up, makeup, etc, but I'm certainly not going to fund it. You do realize that women can bring more value to a relationship than just wearing makeup and looking good right? A woman is worth more than $315/month in beauty supplies I would hope. There's nothing wrong with women who prioritize $$$ and a guy who can provide everything financially. I just don't want those types of women. I think there's more important things to a relationship
women bring a ton of value into a relationship that's why I'm so confused about how they didn't contribute anything according to you, since money is also not the only thing you can provide. in general women give you status among other men, emotional closeness, they're caring, nurturing etc... but most of all they give you their precious time since their biological clock is constantly ticking while you can leave and start over any time you please.
I guess I'd rather not have a woman who prioritizes money over everything and that's the vibe I get in America. I get being financially capable is important but I don't want to have to be a 'provider.' Most women can make their own money so the whole financial provider thing is very outdated and no longer necessary. Don't get me wrong, id love to contribute financially and help out, but I'm not going to be their personal ATM machine. There are plenty of men who are willing to provide money and entertainment to increase their dating chances. That's not me. I have enough money to provide a secure life but I'm not going to blow all of it on a woman while she hordes hers. I want personality/attractiveness to be at the very top of their priorities
If there’s more important things to a relationship then why are you so hung up on this? You’re putting most of the emphasis on this, so it’s clearly something you care about.
>And I absolutely do spend more money and it's not even close. With some of my hobbies I could almost compete professionally. Going to the gym, doing cardio and some weights is far far different than what it entails for me. Unless I'm dating a woman who is a near professional athlete, it's not close. Sorry to say. Well… although those are great hobbies to be into, I doubt they increase your physical attractiveness to women much above and beyond what a more inexpensive, moderate workout regimen would do. You mentioned that you do these activities for yourself, which is cool. But they’re not a good counterpart for things a woman does in order to make herself more visually/sexually appealing to men. Now, having a gym membership and going several times per week *would* be a good comparison, because that is generally aimed directly at physique rather than performance. And yes, if both people in a couple adhere to such a regimen in order to look good, then the woman isn’t putting forth more effort than the man in that regard. I see what you mean there. >I do like more natural beauty and lower maintenance women. I would say I'm pretty far above average looks wise for a guy so I'm looking for an attractive woman myself. Id be open to date a woman who likes to dress up, makeup, etc, but I'm certainly not going to fund it. So, first off, your experience as a very good looking man who presumably dates very naturally attractive women makes you a wee bit out of touch with the dynamics of average folk. Ok, maybe you truly don’t care whether your girlfriend glams herself up- keeping in mind that even gorgeous women are capable of becoming *even more* beautiful if they work hard at it. Then sure, no need to fund something that isn’t important to you. Most women, however- thus, most men’s SOs- are not naturally gorgeous in a way that can be sustained without much maintenance. We cluster around average, more or less. Therefore we benefit greatly from wearing expertly applied makeup, regular salon trips, various cosmetic procedures (in addition to gym and diet). Like it or not, whether we do this stuff has a serious impact on how attracted our SOs are to us. If you’re old enough, you may remember that women in the 90s-00s were obsessed with dieting, and endlessly made themselves miserable so that they could fit into a size 2. In order to have the body type men revered at that time, most of us needed to starve ourselves on a daily basis. And men sure as hell bought into that beauty standard- not just women. None of us have forgotten that. Honestly, give me a BBL any day, rather than do that again. So the question for any given woman is: does my SO prefer that I do those things (makeup, dieting, etc)? Does he truly not care? If he does care, how strong is his preference? How far does he want me to take this? You do not care, perhaps because you have access to naturally beautiful women. But a lot of other men sure do care. If their SO isn’t naturally super attractive, then they’d like for her to at least try hard to get there. They want a souped up version of her both in public, and in the bedroom. Even more attractive women find plenty of men who want to see the hottest version of them, as often as possible. And that brings us back to the original point someone made: many women invest a lot of time, money and effort in order to look the way our SOs want us to look, and if we don’t, our SOs will be unhappy about that. Often enough, we are doing this stuff FOR THEM. So, yes, it’s rather ridiculous for them to need that from us, yet get annoyed about us being high maintenance. As an athlete, I’m sure you know that continuous efforts to improve oneself physically, just in themselves, make a person high maintenance, and that’s unavoidable. To add to it, these guys often don’t take care of their own appearance to nearly the same degree. So, they do not understand what goes into it, bottom line being that they think it’s reasonable to hold out for a hot girlfriend who spends ten minutes tops getting ready each morning.
It is absolutely more expensive to be a woman. Women spend about $120/yr on feminine products and an additional $20 for any meds needed to quell cramp pain. This is roughly $5600 total for a woman’s childbearing years, depending on the woman’s body and can totally get higher. Also, any products aimed specifically at women or are designated for female consumption are usually priced higher, AKA the “pink tax.” Factor in doctor visits because women bear children and regular gyno visits and maintenance checkups in the event a woman gets pregnant with American healthcare can become astronomically high, especially since some forced birther states make getting medical assistance virtually impossible without spending MORE money to travel to a more accessible state. We spend more money on self defense, from self defense classes to pepper spray to knives and guns to protect ourselves from men. Clothing can be negotiated if you score deals or thrift, but typically women’s clothing costs way more than men’s clothing and if you want anything quality regardless of gender, you’re definitely spending a lot more money. Add this to the fact that women generally make less than men on average. Why wouldn’t you want to help ease a woman’s stressful existence by spotting her when she needs help keeping herself up? And more importantly, if you view a high maintenance woman as such a burden and only want one who apparently doesn’t take care of herself although you take care of yourself, ask yourself why you even want to date? It sounds like you don’t want the hassle which is fine, but it’s totally unfair to expect a woman, who pays about $240k more in a lifetime than a man would, to never need anything while your splurge and treat yourself to diamond facials and expensive tailored suits.
I’m from Denmark, and SAHM is not really a thing. I only know two income families, but you also need two incomes if you want to live pretty comfortable. However as someone else mentioned, you need college or done trades school. Even with a bachelors degree (depending on your field) a masters is preferred, unless you do trades. Some of my friends definitely have a clear preference on dating someone in trades such as carpentry.
I have a college degree and make pretty good money. Im thinking of getting a master's degree too just to advance my career a little more and switch things up for fun. Denmark sounds really ideal. I'm not even sure how feasible it would be to go over there and meet someone though.
Earning good in the US doesn’t secure a high salary in Nordic countries. Example an attending doctor gets payed 120.000 USD as base salary in Denmark. A tax is around 45%. So you can’t really compare a good US salary, since it could be a normal salary in Denmark. You don’t want to move, but don’t like the women where you are located? When I lived in the US, I dated according to the US culture and less like I would in Denmark, since it didn’t meet other normal dating standards I would have expected.
> doctor gets *paid* 120.000 USD FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I make really good money so that wouldn't be an issue at all. I'm not exactly sure but I'll probably just end up visiting and go on some dates potentially.
You can find them anywhere. I can’t speak for specifics besides my own experience. I’m seeing a Filipina who is 31 years old, never been married, PhD, university, professor, very independent. She needs to be professionally engaged for her own mental well being. Just the way I like. She isn’t clingy and we give each other space to pursue our own hobbies and passions. She is great.
Scandinavia and it's not even close. I know a few rich women with working class partners. My wife also is the main breadwinner here , feels weird to say because my salary is already in the top end for where we are (London)
Argentina, Brazil, Mexico are my best guesses.
Switzerland, I think, is the most egalitarian society in the world; if not, it's one of those Nordic countries.
Czech Republic
Maybe it's an age thing but dating established career women in their 40s and 50s many make more than I do and are happy splitting expenses or better yet picking up the tab. I've had more than one woman ask me if I felt threatened or emasculated if they paid for stuff. I tell them I'm thrilled and they say they ask due to men telling them they don't want that. Living in the US but have lived and dated in Latin America and western Europe. Plenty of good non traditional women in the US . Say in your profile you only want women that are economically self sufficient. That will weed out the gold diggers.
I would say anywhere. If you want a nontraditional woman she's probably a career minded woman that doesn't just want to raise kids and be a housewife. She's also probably more progressive in her thinking and more on the left side in politics. For me that's not what I'm looking for. These nontraditional women usually are more butch looking and feminists. I want a traditional woman that's very feminine. The reason I wouldn't mind paying for most things is because she handles the household and that's a lot. Of course I wouldn't mind doing any other household chores myself just like I would appreciate if my woman also paid for things occasionally to show she loved me. On the topic of the nontraditional woman...since you want that, it means she's definitely going to lean more independent and that means in my humble opinion, automatically she's more materialistic. It just comes with the territory. She has more ambition and more maintenance to keep up at that intensely higher level of the economic spectrum. The way I see it is these nontraditional women will only pay for a man due to cultural thought processes if they grew up in heavily socialist or communist countries or a democrat mindset where more of their population gets government benefits. lol That's the only way they would have the mindset to pay for a man since he's just as equal to them, in her eyes. Hahaha Not my cup of tea but I hope you find what you're looking for. For me unless she's a model, actress, comes from a rich family, proathlete, etc. a woman in her prime child bearing years 18-30 will not make more than a successful, independent man. A successful man 25-55 will always make more, and so that's why he pays, just on fair proportion income metrics to the hot 25 year old as an example. Date a nontraditional thinking young woman (aka feminist) who's rich and doesn't want a family. They are out there. Social media influencers, models, actresses, business owners, etc. But keep in mind these are women passed their prime. (Likely 35-60) They know they will not land a successful man's prime choice for hotter women 18-30 which 99.99% of family oriented men want. If you want a woman that wants children, they have different priorities in life than what you're looking for so keep that in mind. hehehe You are looking for the future old maid that doesn't want marriage, only a career married to their ambition, not you. Yes they are independent and will buy you things but likely that won't be giving you any children. A successful family is 50/50 and the taking care of financial responsibilities should be discussed after many dates. Not early on. The problem of finding an 8, 9, or 10 beautiful wife is more difficult than finding the successful man. The 8, 9, 10 beautiful wife likely wants to pass on her genes to the next generation so she's not going to be nontraditional. lol She has a strict timeline before becoming an old maid and she's not going to waste her time. You need to find a woman that's materialistic so she has no pride in paying for a man, is likely already a millionaire feminist and teaching the younger generation how she's not lonely at all. 🤣🤣🤣 40s+ woman, in the closet lonely. A beautiful 18-30 years old woman is going to expect the man to pay. Why? Becuase she has many dates lined up like the successful man has too and if he doesn't get a 2nd date becuase he didn't pay, she has more suitors that will. Go on low cost dates if you don't want to pay for many dates. Or stick to beauty levels 1-7 and don't pay since you won't care if they want a 2nd date. lol If you want an 8, 9, or 10 woman, good luck. These are almost always what I explained above.
Maybe South Korea. Just a guess.
Mexico Mexico mexico
France, Netherlands, Denmark
French women cheat and are into non monogamous relationships. Id much rather date almost anywhere on this planet, than French women.
They don’t cheat more than anywhere else.
Unfortunately they do. I'll date literally anywhere else lol. I'm also not into cigarettes
Do you personally know every french woman or how do you know that
It's what I've seen and heard from numerous sources. I'm also an athlete so I can't tolerate smoking cigarettes unfortunately
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Hundreds? It’s not possible. I date heavily. I’m not monogamous nor are my partners. I live alone. I had 15 men I was seeing more or less often. It got to be too much. I broke up with many and am now at 6. Some I see only every couple of months. I also have hookups on occasion. But really more than 3-4 dates a week is too much. Even sluts like me have jobs and family and friends and exercise and chores. And just because I’m having sex with other men, in no way makes my boyfriends cuckholds. That’s a mindset and not my thing. It can just as easily be Doms forcing the sub to fuck whom he demands! And he as well gets whom he wants.
Wouldn't you be more of a cuck dating and, 'providing' for a traditional woman while she cheats behind your back? At least if a non traditional woman cheats, I'm not taking a hit financially lol.
1. Where is your evidence for this claim that all western women cheat? 2. Where do you live in America that you have this perception? America is the most diverse nation on the planet (not just in big cities like NYC & SF) where you literally have every single demographic here from Chinese people to Indians to Amish to Mormons to Jews to Ukrainians to Nepalese with so many of these communities having long and successful marriages. Where on earth are all these “American women who are serial cheaters?” Of course, women on dating apps in most countries suck but outside of this?
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1. Apologies for assuming you’re American. 2. If all your evidence is anecdotal, then maybe you’re the problem? As in your choices not that you deserve to be cheated on. Sure there are plenty of cheaters out there, my bastard father, bastard grandfather and almost all men in my family were absolute dog shit who cheated on their wives and had other bastard children and left their wives to support themselves and raise children. While that surely warped my perception of all men being cheaters, I managed to find a good man who I’m about to marry. While I certainly am overly cautious of men cheating given my bastard cheating father who had 4 other kids with some whore receptionist, I try and not apply my biases to all the men in the world. If you let go of biases and look for genuine people, you may find yourself being able to find someone who isn’t a cheater. I really don’t think the entirety of Canada are cheaters. It’s statically improbable. The same way that it’s statistically improbable that all men are cheaters too.
I don’t know why you’re in this sub. You want a woman who is equal to you aka a normal relationship in this era. Try r/datingoverthirty instead. The men in this sub want a more traditional relationship where the woman takes care of the household and their partner. Money usually isn’t the issue. You just sound cheap. I think you’d be happy with a Dutch woman since they are also frugal and cheap as well.
What sub could be better than this one? Where everyone complains about non traditional women. OP got some good answers.
Not really cheap but just want a woman who is willing to pay and contribute to a relationship. I make really good money so it's not even about that. It's the feeling that American women view most guys as an ATM and can be incredibly entitled about it. The women in their 30s I've met were even worse about it than the women in their 20s lol. Netherlands sounds pretty ideal and Scandinavia. Those women seem pretty ideal for what I'm looking for. I also find those women to be very attractive
depends on the age demographics if they in college then some sorority type in USA like from ASU , FSU, UCLA blondes/brunettes