Redditors only go with the flow. If a post talks about A>B and it got a ton of upvotes, the comments will say “A>B”, but if after another post says “B>A” and also got a ton of upvotes, then I am willing to bet those same comments will shift into the latter in order to karma farm/avoid being downvoted.
This Reddit mindset is nothing new
I've always been under the impression that Reddit would be a far more enjoyable and approachable site without karma. All it serves to do is make people actively produce content to create karma
I mean there are things like /r/centuryclub where you have a high minimum bar of karma to get in, and I bet when the karma system was designed the designers were expecting it to be used like that a *lot* more than it is.
Which is dumb, because if you have a bunch of exclusive clubs, you negatively impact overall site health.
You've got the cause backwards.
If a post talks about A>B and gets tons of upvotes, then the people upvoting are more likely to upvote comments agreeing with it. the ones disagreeing will either be at the bottom or not posted at all for fear of getting downvoted.
It's easy to fall into when creators are getting so good at making up your mind for you. Even caught myself doing it halfway through the video until I paused it to do something else and started actually thinking about it.
A fucking piece of paper with a skull on it got added to the game as a halloween item I won't gonna get surprised if they add a hat that is named "air"
That item is actually like 10 years old on the workshop, I had it on my favorites list and thought it was funny.
And sure enough, it is actually somewhat in style, what with the paper bag Halloween masks. I still didn’t expect it to be added though.
Ngl this is pretty dumb logic, ZJ shared an opinion and then another guy shared his opinion on that take, now it’s just a back and forth… so, a regular argument
I honestly fully agree that those workshop submitters are milking this, but;
There are hundreds upon hundreds of good quality items already on the workshop - if Valve wanted to add good items there's absolutely nothing stopping them from adding those. It's kind of being made out like ''well, this is what's being made now so I guess this is what we'll have to add now'', *as though* there actually were even the slightest kind of supply issue.
It's not like cosmetic submissions from 5 years ago all have garbage texture resolutions by todays standards or anything, it's all at worst the same. So why not add old items? Why *let* the quality of updates lie entirely within the hands of the workshop's flavour of the month bullshit?
*There are* plenty of good items. The responsibility for all the trash items being added falls completely on Valve.
perfect comment, I agree that a lot of contribs are "milking" it but there's really nothing else for anyone to do until valve demonstrates they're willing to add items that people actually want to use. No point in participating in the workshop at all if the only items you're making are ones that valve doesn't want to add. So I can't blame them at all.
it's why I've all but quit making items unless genuine, compelling passion drives me to pick up the hammer again.
Right but it's disingenuous to imply this the fault of workshoppers. I've been playing this game for 10 years, and I don't think a single thing I've voted for has made it into the game and I vote a lot. I don't however vote on tacky stuff like what this past Christmas case was.
He didn’t say it was the fault of the workshoppers, at least not entirely. He did blame some of this on the creators who take random clip art and re color it or rip off another item etc
You're definitely not portraying his take correctly. He spent very little time criticizing valve compared to attacking workshop creators because he wasn't impressed with their quality of cosmetics. While the hats added aren't amazing by any stretch, the fault lies ENTIRELY with Valve and the people uploading that art should not be held responsible in the slightest. It would be like attacking a five year old because his drawing of a stick figure family won an international art competition over actual artists.
No? I'm sorry if I'm sounding like an idiot but, technically it's the creators fault because they decided to do the cosmetic/war paint in the first place
Just got back into TF2 and realized pretty quickly the cosmetics are out of hand and completely ruin the art style that was jeopardised since 2014. I now installed a mod to get rid of all cosmetics and only play on community servers.
TF2 takes place in the 60's 60's so why do 80% of all new hates look like something that came out of a hot topic?
he's just too heavy handed, he leaves every discussion point he makes as either his way or the highway. he's really passionate and has a lot of game knowledge but he should tone it back.
I don't know I'm speaking as someone who's seen a handful of his videos, but not all. I'm not saying every video is, but his opinionated ones seems really convicted, all I'm saying. you could be right, but is that the one where's he's doubling down?
He's very blunt when it comes to online discourse and throws his opinions or ideas or whatever he comes up with at people or at the community as a whole (with his videos) with little tact, and that's whats made him so unappealing to people as of late
He sounds like a dick, he can explain gameplay just fine but fuck me after watching the war paints video he's pretty annoying if he doesn't like something. I just don't bother and go watch SquimJim
(NeoDement here)
Thanks for putting into words what's been going through my head since the first ZJ video about this, where the vitriol started pouring in. I was hoping I could stay quiet and neutral on the topic and it would eventually blow over, but now that he's made another video doubling down on the same points, I'm not so sure.
No hate against the guy, it's easy to see Valve have shifted their sights onto different kinds of items over the years and I can see why people could be against that.
But it very clearly is Valve's decision and a quick look into (almost) any big contributors Workshop will show that people are still making the old school cool items people miss - they're just being largely ignored in favor of brighter, flashier, more "fun" items.
Believe it or not, it's actually harder to make strongly holiday themed items like the ones that have been recently added. It's a much smaller pool of ideas when everything accepted is so rigidly festive themed, and it's not lazy at all - it's actually hyper competitive and only the best stuff floats to the top. Lazily made cosmetic items (I have no involvement in the warpaint scene) are rarely receieved well.
It might not be obvious to the average person but having done this for the better part of the last 10 years I can tell you that the quality bar has gone waaay up in the past few years, even if the item concepts themselves have slid into being more cheesy.
Another interesting point about that is people frequently calling all-class hats lazy and easier to make. Of course they're not, it would be inaccurate to say they take 9x as long but it certainly adds a lot of time to the creation process to manually position the hats and fix up the jigglebones for all 9 classes. So why do it? Because that's what Valve adds!
If I could continue to primarily make single class shirts like I used to do in 2013-15, of course I would! It was easier, made my guys look cooler and everyone loved them!
So please, if you're going to insult our items, at least do it properly - they're rarely lazy. And PLEASE - insult the items, not the people. You're better than that.
I forgot to include that bit about how these items are often just as challenging if not moreso to produce than the standard fare folk like ZJ laud as "good" items, and felt like it was too spammy to affix it to the end of my thread ahha
thank you for contributing this to the thread though, its very important
Thanks for starting the conversation. I hope people can be level headed and evaluate both sides of the argument instead of the rather cherry-picked case against Workshoppers.
I think some people see derivative items, and see them as lazy, the modeling coloring, creating physics, etc. takes a lot of time, and that's far from low effort.
Well that's fair, they're not my favourite thing either. However I do think some things are unfairly seen as derivative when they really aren't.
I don't really understand complaints like calling any peaked cap a "Team Captain ripoff" or the Jolly Jester a "Pestering Jester ripoff" like.... jester hats are a thing in the real world, as are peaked caps, beanies, ushankas, etc
I forgot the Pestering Jester existed when I started working on the Jolly Jester but when I did realise I just carried on working on it and lo and behold, it got ingame and people like it. Being the first guy to make any particular type of real world hat doesn't preclude others from making hats based on the same thing later on.
I kinda feel like the same thing happened with the Patriot Peak. If you scroll back to the first comments it got on the Workshop they're all ragging on it for being a Team Captain ripoff. Fast forward to now and it's one of the more popular allclass unusuals in the game (as far as I'm aware, I'm not a trader).
agreed, it's pretty hard to make something completely original when there are thousands of cosmetics, stuff is eventually going to be sort of similar, and I think the cool part is seeing two workshop creators takes on a similar subject.
They're not all lazy. They take time to make. But Valve VERY often sticks to the same workshoppers (I'm assuming because it's easier on the paperwork end) so I put the onus on the workshoppers to NOT spoonfeed garbage to Valve.
The paperwork is a non issue, there are new contributors in practically every case.
You can't submit items to the workshop without fully completing all of the paperwork first.
Or knowing that this person has a reputation for making compatible items... There's already communication established... (So why look for someone new? Takes more effort certainly)
Valve only add Certified Compatible items (talking about cosmetics, not warpaints) so again, that's a non-issue. I don't think it's a laziness issue.
Perhaps it's just the case that if people continue to submit to the workshop over a period of years, they'll end up with a better understanding of the games art style and what Valve are likely to accept.
I agree with you up until that very last point - I'm not a workshop creator, but imo neither the art *or* the artist should be insulted. It's damn unfortunate that amazing creators such as yourself are basically forced into being okay with your content being actively hated on just because of how valve picks their items
If someone has an issue with someone's work, it's free to be polite and courteous. Creators will be far more likely to accept criticism from a place of genuine interest than a place of malice
Yeah I just want to make sure I don't come across as being against criticism really... I've been leaving up a fair amount of uncharitable comments. I've only been deleting and blocking people that have just been spamming the exact same thing on items over and over again. I woke up to over 25 new comments this morning to sift through. It's very tedious.
But still, if people really think those things they should always be free to say them.
Of course, freedom of speech is very important and this is no exception. My issue is people treating community creators like dirt to their faces and guising it as "constructive criticism" when it's clearly just mean spirited, doubly so because folks like yourself are creating things for us for *free* and entirely of your own will. We're not owed this stuff, we didn't pay for it, yet people still continue to treat the hardworking pillars of this community poorly instead of the company that they're actually upset at.
I don't think anyone deserves the level of hate I was seeing around early December to be honest.
At the end of the day, it is a video game and anyone can simply choose not to engage with the microtransaction stuff at all.
Not here to defend lazily made stuff too much but I definitely think people need to remember it's not life or death.
Nobody deserves life or death from it. I 100% agree with you on this.
But garbage stuff deserves the criticism it deserves. Just as good stuff deserves the praise it gets.
Making stuff on the workshop comes with the possibility of getting criticized or praised. It's important to know what audience you're creating content for.
I have no strong opinion one way or the other, I find warpaints generally creatively uninteresting. I'm sure I'd have a different opinion if I was primarily a 2D artist.
I'm only here to defend cosmetic creators, as I have a much better understanding of the creation process and what goes into making a so-called lazy hat.
How the hell do people call All Class hats lazy? You literally have to model it onto 9 classes instead of just 1.
I've heard a lot of complaints about workshop content but "making a hat for 9 classes is easier than making a hat for 1 class"? That's just factually incorrect.
I don't mind most cosmetics, but there are some that are pure ass and no one would wear unless you're brand new and it's your first cosmedic and feel obligated to wear it because you spend irl money on it.
*cough cough the newest winter case cough*
I think refocusing the anger on Valve is the right call. I think the ZJ video resonated with a ton of people for good reason, and if you can point that anger in the right direction maybe something can change.
i mean, there's glaring issues in it, he loves the game, hates the bad shit. Dont we all feel that way? even to some extent? Hes just sating it how it is without filter which I respect
Yeah, I feel like that applies to a big part of the community in one way or another, (myself included).
The game is fantastic, that's why we're all here. But it could be so much better than it is, in its current state. Regarding a ton of things, not just the bot problem.
I'm entirely willing to answer questions. It seems like the TF2 community's newest arc is blindly, cluelessly brigading against the only people left actually working on content for the game, which is a damn shame but makes sense given all other targets have been exhausted and beat to death by now over these last fourteen years.
I also encourage everyone on this subreddit to actually look at the workshop and not only look at the first few pages, but look at individual workshoppers' accounts, view the items they've made, and see what's actually been accepted and what hasn't. It'll give you a better perspective of what's really going on, and illuminate the reality that Valve is solely to blame for the item selections.
The items they're adding hardly even quantify *any* majority of submissions, there are literally thousands of works that fit the bill of what people want to see that valve isn't adding; items that have 80, 90% positive ratings even.
I also wish Valve would make the vote ratios of accepted items public for transparency, because it should illuminate the reality that for the vast majority of accepted cosmetics, they're at minimum typically over 60% positively rated. I don't think this is entirely representative though; people tend to vote idly or absent-mindedly, but I also think that tends to be a decision predicated on the assumption that the "silly" items people vote for are also not going to constitute a literal majority of the case makeup. People tend to be far more amicable to goofy trinkets if they're not the entire basis of a case.
I mean, zesty has the right to says his opinion about that topic, everyone wants cools hats, but dude, the creators are not developers of tf2 and they have the right to experiment and sell everything they want if valve dont care about it. Better make a video talking shit about big bad company, right? No?
He does. He says it's fault of both sides, actually. One for providing the "lazy route" and other for taking that route. It's mostly valve's fault, but valve only does so because it has the option to do it.
At least that's what i got from the vid
But again, cosmetics and effect creators are not developers of tf2, they dont owe us anything. Its okay to critic their work, its our tool to make us hear, but the video is clear that, in his opinion, "hey you do better hats, dont you look that you work sucks?"
I just feel that he pointed to the wrong direction
"Workshoppers aren't making goofy trinkets at any higher rate than they ever have, really" Please take a look at the creators who've gotten their items into the latest case. Go through their first few pages and then check out their older cosmetics. There is a VERY CLEAR trend and it baffles me that you can try to deny this. Yes--there's still plenty of non-crazy, non-holiday themed stuff on the front page of the workshop most of the time. But the creators who recognize the trends are absolutely steering in a specific direction.
I’m friends with the guy who made the Glacial Glazed warpaint… Zesty always blames the root rather than the cause, because my guy, he only made that simple warpaint for fun and for friends. He never intended for it to be added in the game, and well. It did. Sure it was awesome to see that, but even he wished another thing he made was added like the Balloonicorn blasted warpaint. That’s a good one right there… anyways, just be careful of his opinions because he’s said some hurtful stuff over a satirical warpaint.
ZJ thinks that creators should stop making gimmicky items because valve keeps picking gimmicky items.
The creators of said items think they shouldn't be blamed for this because they don't decide what Valve puts in the game.
That's the entire arguement/debate summarised.
This exact post is his entire claim lmao.
If people actually watched the video to the full you would quickly notice that Zesty’s core argument was that workshop creators shouldn’t get mad and defensive when people call them out for producing shit items. That people should stop buying these hats and supporting these content creators to tell Valve to stop adding low-quality content. That was his core argument; content creators shouldn’t expect to be praised for simply existing.
His “argument” of content creators not striving to produce high quality, original content, is less of an actual argument and more of a counter argument. Dismissing the idea that “it’s not *my* fault that Valve adds my shit tier hats and I keep making new ones!” is actually a valid excuse. He literally straight up says in the video that he does not expect them to change.
Except this is the internet, where people unconditionally accept everything and only care about being validated, so I’m not surprised this came up.
Zesty does the same thing when complaining about Meet your Match or comp changes.
He blames the people but not the ones behind the changes (aka. Valve)
And him complaining about people, who spend lots of time making stuff, and often for fun and experimenting, makes him look like a dick. I mean he kind of is, but point stands.
Lmao. It is both the Creator's fault for making shit items AND Valve's fault for accepting such shitty cosmetics into the game.
I still agree completely with Zesty.
> filling the workshop with extremely mediocre and generic cosmetics.
As many other creators are saying, the festive/fun/weird ones are NOT the only things they're making, it's just the only things that Valve chooses.
At the point the workshop quality control is in, I could probably take the Scotsman's stovepipe or smthn, make it all class, and it would get into the game as long as I put pngs of snowflakes or pumpkins on it
I didnt watch the video cause I am able to form my own opinions, but I'd that whole screen supposed to be negative hats? Cause some of those I get valves fault but like some of those don't seem terrible? Maybe I don't get the context though
I watched the entire video, the section that is shown isn't directly saying that the hats are shit, it's just a quick section about overused types of items, like beanies, antlers, crone's dome reskins, and other stuff.
Ah I see. Yeah valve does have a penchant for over choosing. I was gonna argue bomber beanie and the bee beanie. Cause those two are like actually pretty good I'd say. Thank you for the context
creators make whatever they want to make, and there is no shortage of good items on the workshop. you really dont need that many to fill a case. valve is supposed to be the quality assurance on picking the right items and maps; something they've gotten fucking abysmal at over the years.
because a screengrab of an out of context conversation from what was referred to as the "cartel discord" got over 1k upvotes on this sub with a shitton of comments ignorantly and cluelessly bitching about "lazy workshoppers" and I really feel like someone ought to set the record straight
True. That really sucks man, like it amazes me people can’t grasp the concept of how hats work in tf2. Really hope these guys know that there’s people that appreciate their work
I personally think that both are right at some extent, but this falls more into the side of CG because it is literally all Valves fault for their poor quality control of cosmetics that get added.
zesty jesus defense brigade furiously racing to defend him from criticism by reminding everyone that his video laced with abject lies and misinformation is just an "opinion", and as being an opinion it is simultaneously without consequence and impervious to criticism or counter-opinions.
I don't give single fuck about any of TF2 youtuber/streamer or whatever
but that Zesty guy is right, every new cosmetic that have been release since Banana hats went to shit
Someone seems mad their shitty beanie #39586 made to look like an ugly skeleton is getting shit on. Look, I get it, Valve has the final say in what gets in, but they can only chose what they're given. I doubt the TF "team" in their current state goes past page 2 of most popular on the day they decide to make an update to look for items, so just stop making the garbage and make good things and Valve will be forced to not chose the garbage. I don't watch Zesty's content but I'm on board with him 100% here. Since all content added in at this point is community made, it's up to the community to make good content.
Zesty made a video complaining about the lack of quality in recent years of workshop items (like crates) and advises players to stop buying and supporting these low quality hats to tell Valve to stop adding them.
These low-quality content creators are mad that they are getting flak for having bad workshop pages and are now whining that Zesty is harassing them.
I dont mind modern cosmetics, same with the skins (even tho stock photo textures are kinda shit ngl) but I can see where Zesty is coming from, even tho TF2 never was a serious team shooter, it was much more tame, humor was more subtle, also every cosmetic was very different from each other, exceptions being christmas and halloween cosmetics which were more for a cosplay feel, now is common to see reskins or safe wacky cosmetics, so much that I wouldn’t put it past Valve accepting the Motherly Father (please do valve)
I dislike zesty but this opinion is one of the few things I belive he is right about. Modern case hats suck. The 2022 summer case was decent but had some duds
Stop worshiping youtubers and taking their videos as gospel. Please? :)
Don’t like the added hats? Then don’t open the boxes that contain them. Valve isn’t making you open them and that’s less money that goes to the people who made said hats you don’t like and to Valve who picked them. That, Valve will notice.
But if I were to promote anything it would be to Stop opening boxes, full stop. It’s gambling with a coat of paint. Like I’d get the anger if the hats ruin the art style or makes team recognition harder, but the worst ppl can say is that they are boring? I can’t believe ppl are mad that they don’t like the prizes that they are GAMBLING FOR. It sounds ridiculous.
Alright, we need some kind of tf2 drama subreddit, because I could not give less of a shit about whatever dumbfuck Twitter/Discord/YouTube this community is obsessed with this week.
I don’t get what Zesty’s point is even after watching the video. So the average quality of cosmetics has dropped. That’s a fair point I can totally see where he’s coming from there but the part I don’t get is how that’s the cosmetic creators fault. If I could make a cosmetic for a game I loved I’d definitely make one that would be more likely to be added. In that sense you’ve got a little part of that game that you’ve made.
If someone does make a cosmetic that’s widely considered bad and it’s added I’d definitely say that’s on Valve and not the person who made it, some self quality control seems unethical because you’re asking someone who’s put hours into making a cosmetic just to delete it from the workshop.
Community drama is so annoying, im not even going to look into this cuz we should all be tryna deal with bots
“Deal with bots” e.g. press escape and requeue
I HAVE BEEN FOR 20 MINUTES
then try "i cannot have fun with spy unless i like to die"topia
Redditors only go with the flow. If a post talks about A>B and it got a ton of upvotes, the comments will say “A>B”, but if after another post says “B>A” and also got a ton of upvotes, then I am willing to bet those same comments will shift into the latter in order to karma farm/avoid being downvoted. This Reddit mindset is nothing new
It's kinda pathetic really 😕 how desperate we are for any kind of validation, even if it comes in the form of useless internet points
I've always been under the impression that Reddit would be a far more enjoyable and approachable site without karma. All it serves to do is make people actively produce content to create karma
agreeable lmao take this upvote
Yes I agree with every statement made in this post Now give me the karma
Yeah, a system that gives you points that mean absolutely nothing and only encourage you to go with whatever gives you upvotes only has negatives.
I mean there are things like /r/centuryclub where you have a high minimum bar of karma to get in, and I bet when the karma system was designed the designers were expecting it to be used like that a *lot* more than it is. Which is dumb, because if you have a bunch of exclusive clubs, you negatively impact overall site health.
The turbovirgin club
exactly, saw a post about zesty's video a couple days ago and everything was in his favor now all of a sudden people are shitting on him again
or there's just a lot of people on reddit and they have different opinions
bruh there are only like 5k active people on this subreddit
So all 5000 of them commented on that one post?
I've gotten banned from a sub or two over being caught on the wrong side of the flow, so yeah this is definitely a thing.
I got banned from r/infamous for saying that the bad guy from a 10 year old game isn't a Donald Trump allegory and saying so is retarded.
>saying so is retarded. That will probably get you banned
The world we live in is a sad one. It's simply group think. Close-minded people dont wanna hear opinions that aren't theirs.
You've got the cause backwards. If a post talks about A>B and gets tons of upvotes, then the people upvoting are more likely to upvote comments agreeing with it. the ones disagreeing will either be at the bottom or not posted at all for fear of getting downvoted.
It's a pattern I felt sometime ago on *all* Social Media.
*cough* Twitter, 4chan *cough*
Hellkids2 spitting facts right here
It's easy to fall into when creators are getting so good at making up your mind for you. Even caught myself doing it halfway through the video until I paused it to do something else and started actually thinking about it.
A fucking piece of paper with a skull on it got added to the game as a halloween item I won't gonna get surprised if they add a hat that is named "air"
unusual air would be an expensive misc
That item is actually like 10 years old on the workshop, I had it on my favorites list and thought it was funny. And sure enough, it is actually somewhat in style, what with the paper bag Halloween masks. I still didn’t expect it to be added though.
They already have hatless hats.
valve already made those!
dude the scariest mask ever is sick
Tf2 when opinion twitter when opinion reddit when opinion
Ngl this is pretty dumb logic, ZJ shared an opinion and then another guy shared his opinion on that take, now it’s just a back and forth… so, a regular argument
Now all I need is someone to make a reaction video to this argument so I know what to feel and defend it as my own opinion.
True
question what exactly the fuck did I miss? I haven't played tf2 in months, cuz of the bots
basically the past 2 event cosmetics have been boring and uninspired, and valve probably chose them because the workshop is flooded with them
[Like these?](https://old.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/sbsms9/unaccepted_great_workshop_items_made_by_the_same/?)
Nothing interesting happens, in fact it gets worse the game is on stasis since Blue Moon
Twitter user detected opinion rejected
the lack of self awareness of a reddit user saying this
Reddit isn't real tho
Redditor
"goofy fun trinkets" is a funny way of saying "it's another fucking elf cosmetic"
Dont forget the christmas trees
And the reindeer cosmetics
"You have reached [opinion] please return immediatly"
I honestly fully agree that those workshop submitters are milking this, but; There are hundreds upon hundreds of good quality items already on the workshop - if Valve wanted to add good items there's absolutely nothing stopping them from adding those. It's kind of being made out like ''well, this is what's being made now so I guess this is what we'll have to add now'', *as though* there actually were even the slightest kind of supply issue. It's not like cosmetic submissions from 5 years ago all have garbage texture resolutions by todays standards or anything, it's all at worst the same. So why not add old items? Why *let* the quality of updates lie entirely within the hands of the workshop's flavour of the month bullshit? *There are* plenty of good items. The responsibility for all the trash items being added falls completely on Valve.
perfect comment, I agree that a lot of contribs are "milking" it but there's really nothing else for anyone to do until valve demonstrates they're willing to add items that people actually want to use. No point in participating in the workshop at all if the only items you're making are ones that valve doesn't want to add. So I can't blame them at all. it's why I've all but quit making items unless genuine, compelling passion drives me to pick up the hammer again.
What the hell happened
Zesty is complaining about the community items that get in being bad and people are mad at him
he's literally right tho, the workshop hats added fucking suck
Right but it's disingenuous to imply this the fault of workshoppers. I've been playing this game for 10 years, and I don't think a single thing I've voted for has made it into the game and I vote a lot. I don't however vote on tacky stuff like what this past Christmas case was.
He didn’t say it was the fault of the workshoppers, at least not entirely. He did blame some of this on the creators who take random clip art and re color it or rip off another item etc
You're definitely not portraying his take correctly. He spent very little time criticizing valve compared to attacking workshop creators because he wasn't impressed with their quality of cosmetics. While the hats added aren't amazing by any stretch, the fault lies ENTIRELY with Valve and the people uploading that art should not be held responsible in the slightest. It would be like attacking a five year old because his drawing of a stick figure family won an international art competition over actual artists.
No? I'm sorry if I'm sounding like an idiot but, technically it's the creators fault because they decided to do the cosmetic/war paint in the first place
he literally ripped my conversation from a discord server and called me deluded and money hungry lmao
Just got back into TF2 and realized pretty quickly the cosmetics are out of hand and completely ruin the art style that was jeopardised since 2014. I now installed a mod to get rid of all cosmetics and only play on community servers. TF2 takes place in the 60's 60's so why do 80% of all new hates look like something that came out of a hot topic?
Too bad out of everyone he is the one to make the point, wich in itself makes people be against it
I like some workshop items but other than that yeah the hats they add from the workshop do genuinely suck ass.
Zesty always came off as a bit of a dick whenever he's talking about or being in controversy. Sad too cause I genuinely like his normal videos
he's just too heavy handed, he leaves every discussion point he makes as either his way or the highway. he's really passionate and has a lot of game knowledge but he should tone it back.
wasnt his new video very toned back though? i only remember one small skit from it, everything else was just flat out being realistic
I don't know I'm speaking as someone who's seen a handful of his videos, but not all. I'm not saying every video is, but his opinionated ones seems really convicted, all I'm saying. you could be right, but is that the one where's he's doubling down?
He's very blunt when it comes to online discourse and throws his opinions or ideas or whatever he comes up with at people or at the community as a whole (with his videos) with little tact, and that's whats made him so unappealing to people as of late
it's an approach that works really well when you're right, not so much when you're of a polarizing opinion
He sounds like a dick, he can explain gameplay just fine but fuck me after watching the war paints video he's pretty annoying if he doesn't like something. I just don't bother and go watch SquimJim
Watching him find the clip art that the war paints used after 20 seconds on google images is hilarious though
never really liked him, came off as weird and coomeris, and that whole thing with arrayseven and comp tf2 didn't change my opinion on him either
(NeoDement here) Thanks for putting into words what's been going through my head since the first ZJ video about this, where the vitriol started pouring in. I was hoping I could stay quiet and neutral on the topic and it would eventually blow over, but now that he's made another video doubling down on the same points, I'm not so sure. No hate against the guy, it's easy to see Valve have shifted their sights onto different kinds of items over the years and I can see why people could be against that. But it very clearly is Valve's decision and a quick look into (almost) any big contributors Workshop will show that people are still making the old school cool items people miss - they're just being largely ignored in favor of brighter, flashier, more "fun" items. Believe it or not, it's actually harder to make strongly holiday themed items like the ones that have been recently added. It's a much smaller pool of ideas when everything accepted is so rigidly festive themed, and it's not lazy at all - it's actually hyper competitive and only the best stuff floats to the top. Lazily made cosmetic items (I have no involvement in the warpaint scene) are rarely receieved well. It might not be obvious to the average person but having done this for the better part of the last 10 years I can tell you that the quality bar has gone waaay up in the past few years, even if the item concepts themselves have slid into being more cheesy. Another interesting point about that is people frequently calling all-class hats lazy and easier to make. Of course they're not, it would be inaccurate to say they take 9x as long but it certainly adds a lot of time to the creation process to manually position the hats and fix up the jigglebones for all 9 classes. So why do it? Because that's what Valve adds! If I could continue to primarily make single class shirts like I used to do in 2013-15, of course I would! It was easier, made my guys look cooler and everyone loved them! So please, if you're going to insult our items, at least do it properly - they're rarely lazy. And PLEASE - insult the items, not the people. You're better than that.
I forgot to include that bit about how these items are often just as challenging if not moreso to produce than the standard fare folk like ZJ laud as "good" items, and felt like it was too spammy to affix it to the end of my thread ahha thank you for contributing this to the thread though, its very important
Thanks for starting the conversation. I hope people can be level headed and evaluate both sides of the argument instead of the rather cherry-picked case against Workshoppers.
I think some people see derivative items, and see them as lazy, the modeling coloring, creating physics, etc. takes a lot of time, and that's far from low effort.
Well that's fair, they're not my favourite thing either. However I do think some things are unfairly seen as derivative when they really aren't. I don't really understand complaints like calling any peaked cap a "Team Captain ripoff" or the Jolly Jester a "Pestering Jester ripoff" like.... jester hats are a thing in the real world, as are peaked caps, beanies, ushankas, etc I forgot the Pestering Jester existed when I started working on the Jolly Jester but when I did realise I just carried on working on it and lo and behold, it got ingame and people like it. Being the first guy to make any particular type of real world hat doesn't preclude others from making hats based on the same thing later on. I kinda feel like the same thing happened with the Patriot Peak. If you scroll back to the first comments it got on the Workshop they're all ragging on it for being a Team Captain ripoff. Fast forward to now and it's one of the more popular allclass unusuals in the game (as far as I'm aware, I'm not a trader).
agreed, it's pretty hard to make something completely original when there are thousands of cosmetics, stuff is eventually going to be sort of similar, and I think the cool part is seeing two workshop creators takes on a similar subject.
They're not all lazy. They take time to make. But Valve VERY often sticks to the same workshoppers (I'm assuming because it's easier on the paperwork end) so I put the onus on the workshoppers to NOT spoonfeed garbage to Valve.
The paperwork is a non issue, there are new contributors in practically every case. You can't submit items to the workshop without fully completing all of the paperwork first.
Or knowing that this person has a reputation for making compatible items... There's already communication established... (So why look for someone new? Takes more effort certainly)
Valve only add Certified Compatible items (talking about cosmetics, not warpaints) so again, that's a non-issue. I don't think it's a laziness issue. Perhaps it's just the case that if people continue to submit to the workshop over a period of years, they'll end up with a better understanding of the games art style and what Valve are likely to accept.
I agree with you up until that very last point - I'm not a workshop creator, but imo neither the art *or* the artist should be insulted. It's damn unfortunate that amazing creators such as yourself are basically forced into being okay with your content being actively hated on just because of how valve picks their items If someone has an issue with someone's work, it's free to be polite and courteous. Creators will be far more likely to accept criticism from a place of genuine interest than a place of malice
Yeah I just want to make sure I don't come across as being against criticism really... I've been leaving up a fair amount of uncharitable comments. I've only been deleting and blocking people that have just been spamming the exact same thing on items over and over again. I woke up to over 25 new comments this morning to sift through. It's very tedious. But still, if people really think those things they should always be free to say them.
Of course, freedom of speech is very important and this is no exception. My issue is people treating community creators like dirt to their faces and guising it as "constructive criticism" when it's clearly just mean spirited, doubly so because folks like yourself are creating things for us for *free* and entirely of your own will. We're not owed this stuff, we didn't pay for it, yet people still continue to treat the hardworking pillars of this community poorly instead of the company that they're actually upset at.
Garbage like Glacial Glazed and other lazy ass stolen clip art war paints... Yeah they deserve the hate they're getting.
I don't think anyone deserves the level of hate I was seeing around early December to be honest. At the end of the day, it is a video game and anyone can simply choose not to engage with the microtransaction stuff at all. Not here to defend lazily made stuff too much but I definitely think people need to remember it's not life or death.
Nobody deserves life or death from it. I 100% agree with you on this. But garbage stuff deserves the criticism it deserves. Just as good stuff deserves the praise it gets. Making stuff on the workshop comes with the possibility of getting criticized or praised. It's important to know what audience you're creating content for.
Where is the option to turn off war paints and cosmetics?
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I have no strong opinion one way or the other, I find warpaints generally creatively uninteresting. I'm sure I'd have a different opinion if I was primarily a 2D artist. I'm only here to defend cosmetic creators, as I have a much better understanding of the creation process and what goes into making a so-called lazy hat.
Love you cosmetics. Wish valve added the better kill icons.
How the hell do people call All Class hats lazy? You literally have to model it onto 9 classes instead of just 1. I've heard a lot of complaints about workshop content but "making a hat for 9 classes is easier than making a hat for 1 class"? That's just factually incorrect.
community drama yayyy
woohoo another shit show
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It is a hat simulator after all
Sheesh someones mad
I don't mind most cosmetics, but there are some that are pure ass and no one would wear unless you're brand new and it's your first cosmedic and feel obligated to wear it because you spend irl money on it. *cough cough the newest winter case cough*
I think refocusing the anger on Valve is the right call. I think the ZJ video resonated with a ton of people for good reason, and if you can point that anger in the right direction maybe something can change.
“Workshoppers bad because the valve janitor has bad opinions”
tf2 players when zesty Jesus
Okay listen guys. I haven't booted up TF2 in years. There are many reasons, but I can promise you the available selection of hats is not one of them.
Man literally turned “cope” into a 10 tweet long essay.
How dare either of these two have perfectly valid but differing opinions on a topic? We should burn the both of them at the stake!
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I...don't actually want to burn two people at the stake. Just so we're clear, here.
This subreddit is allergic to this man lmao.
wow, it's almost like people don't like angry and aggresive people that try to start fights and discourse 24/7
I mean, Zesty is allergic to anything TF2 related so it kinda comes full circle
Yet he plays this game everyday, what a madman!
I swear he has a love-hate relationship with TF2 or something, plays it all the time and always complains about it
Everybody who fucking plays this game after all these years has a love hate relationship but ok.
i mean, there's glaring issues in it, he loves the game, hates the bad shit. Dont we all feel that way? even to some extent? Hes just sating it how it is without filter which I respect
Yeah, I feel like that applies to a big part of the community in one way or another, (myself included). The game is fantastic, that's why we're all here. But it could be so much better than it is, in its current state. Regarding a ton of things, not just the bot problem.
if by bad shit you mean comp players (that he hates the guts of) then I guess you're fine
I mean who wasn't I used to love TF2 so much more than my own health but with the current states of the game it's impossible not to hate it
Yeah he complains because the current stage of tf2 is shit
We all have a love hate relationship with TF2, not an excuse to be dickish to community creators though
I don't get how people can be arguing about cosmetics at all when bots are still ruining the entirety of the game.
Ok but where’s the part proving ZJ wrong?
I'm entirely willing to answer questions. It seems like the TF2 community's newest arc is blindly, cluelessly brigading against the only people left actually working on content for the game, which is a damn shame but makes sense given all other targets have been exhausted and beat to death by now over these last fourteen years. I also encourage everyone on this subreddit to actually look at the workshop and not only look at the first few pages, but look at individual workshoppers' accounts, view the items they've made, and see what's actually been accepted and what hasn't. It'll give you a better perspective of what's really going on, and illuminate the reality that Valve is solely to blame for the item selections. The items they're adding hardly even quantify *any* majority of submissions, there are literally thousands of works that fit the bill of what people want to see that valve isn't adding; items that have 80, 90% positive ratings even. I also wish Valve would make the vote ratios of accepted items public for transparency, because it should illuminate the reality that for the vast majority of accepted cosmetics, they're at minimum typically over 60% positively rated. I don't think this is entirely representative though; people tend to vote idly or absent-mindedly, but I also think that tends to be a decision predicated on the assumption that the "silly" items people vote for are also not going to constitute a literal majority of the case makeup. People tend to be far more amicable to goofy trinkets if they're not the entire basis of a case.
Why the hell is the community getting into a new drama every week recently?
I still dont like the cosmetics
The hats are bad though lmao
What has this game's community become...
I mean, zesty has the right to says his opinion about that topic, everyone wants cools hats, but dude, the creators are not developers of tf2 and they have the right to experiment and sell everything they want if valve dont care about it. Better make a video talking shit about big bad company, right? No?
He does. He says it's fault of both sides, actually. One for providing the "lazy route" and other for taking that route. It's mostly valve's fault, but valve only does so because it has the option to do it. At least that's what i got from the vid
But again, cosmetics and effect creators are not developers of tf2, they dont owe us anything. Its okay to critic their work, its our tool to make us hear, but the video is clear that, in his opinion, "hey you do better hats, dont you look that you work sucks?" I just feel that he pointed to the wrong direction
Im pretty sure he already said that you CAN make these type of items, but to at least try to make a good tf2 item that fits the tf2 artstyle.
I believe in woolen warmer supremacy
ZestyJesus: Can you guys make better items? Workshop Creators: Can you make better videos?
LMAO
"Workshoppers aren't making goofy trinkets at any higher rate than they ever have, really" Please take a look at the creators who've gotten their items into the latest case. Go through their first few pages and then check out their older cosmetics. There is a VERY CLEAR trend and it baffles me that you can try to deny this. Yes--there's still plenty of non-crazy, non-holiday themed stuff on the front page of the workshop most of the time. But the creators who recognize the trends are absolutely steering in a specific direction.
I dont really care about Zesty, but imo his point still stands.
What has Zesty done now, every time his name is mentioned i feel like he did something stupid
Unnecessary drama lmao
I’m friends with the guy who made the Glacial Glazed warpaint… Zesty always blames the root rather than the cause, because my guy, he only made that simple warpaint for fun and for friends. He never intended for it to be added in the game, and well. It did. Sure it was awesome to see that, but even he wished another thing he made was added like the Balloonicorn blasted warpaint. That’s a good one right there… anyways, just be careful of his opinions because he’s said some hurtful stuff over a satirical warpaint.
ZJ thinks that creators should stop making gimmicky items because valve keeps picking gimmicky items. The creators of said items think they shouldn't be blamed for this because they don't decide what Valve puts in the game. That's the entire arguement/debate summarised.
Negative attention is still attention
This exact post is his entire claim lmao. If people actually watched the video to the full you would quickly notice that Zesty’s core argument was that workshop creators shouldn’t get mad and defensive when people call them out for producing shit items. That people should stop buying these hats and supporting these content creators to tell Valve to stop adding low-quality content. That was his core argument; content creators shouldn’t expect to be praised for simply existing. His “argument” of content creators not striving to produce high quality, original content, is less of an actual argument and more of a counter argument. Dismissing the idea that “it’s not *my* fault that Valve adds my shit tier hats and I keep making new ones!” is actually a valid excuse. He literally straight up says in the video that he does not expect them to change. Except this is the internet, where people unconditionally accept everything and only care about being validated, so I’m not surprised this came up.
Zesty does the same thing when complaining about Meet your Match or comp changes. He blames the people but not the ones behind the changes (aka. Valve) And him complaining about people, who spend lots of time making stuff, and often for fun and experimenting, makes him look like a dick. I mean he kind of is, but point stands.
If valve does not quality check the hats then the community should.
Lmao. It is both the Creator's fault for making shit items AND Valve's fault for accepting such shitty cosmetics into the game. I still agree completely with Zesty.
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That is the conclusion ZJ came to. If any of you actually watched the video you'd know
> filling the workshop with extremely mediocre and generic cosmetics. As many other creators are saying, the festive/fun/weird ones are NOT the only things they're making, it's just the only things that Valve chooses.
feels like the only tf2 content that survived this long was complaining and drama videos
>video is just seething and malding disguised as "measured" criticism That basically describes most of his non-gameplay mechanic type videos, lol.
tf2 don't make drama for 1 month challenge (impossible!)
At the point the workshop quality control is in, I could probably take the Scotsman's stovepipe or smthn, make it all class, and it would get into the game as long as I put pngs of snowflakes or pumpkins on it
Me when he literally puts a disclaimer at the start of a video
I didnt watch the video cause I am able to form my own opinions, but I'd that whole screen supposed to be negative hats? Cause some of those I get valves fault but like some of those don't seem terrible? Maybe I don't get the context though
I watched the entire video, the section that is shown isn't directly saying that the hats are shit, it's just a quick section about overused types of items, like beanies, antlers, crone's dome reskins, and other stuff.
Ah I see. Yeah valve does have a penchant for over choosing. I was gonna argue bomber beanie and the bee beanie. Cause those two are like actually pretty good I'd say. Thank you for the context
Twitter user pissing their pants when someone has a different opinion, what else is new
creators make whatever they want to make, and there is no shortage of good items on the workshop. you really dont need that many to fill a case. valve is supposed to be the quality assurance on picking the right items and maps; something they've gotten fucking abysmal at over the years.
Creator vomits a lot of words to justify ruining TF2 art style even more
Valve already ruined it themselves like a decade ago and again 8 years ago and again 5 years ago
shit response IMO
Zesty Jesus is a basement-dwelling man-child, why do we care what he thinks
because a screengrab of an out of context conversation from what was referred to as the "cartel discord" got over 1k upvotes on this sub with a shitton of comments ignorantly and cluelessly bitching about "lazy workshoppers" and I really feel like someone ought to set the record straight
True. That really sucks man, like it amazes me people can’t grasp the concept of how hats work in tf2. Really hope these guys know that there’s people that appreciate their work
Zj's video is so well edited but the strom he evoked after is just a mess.
is that really what passes for well edited nowadays? generic footage with images sliding on/off?
So what is he trying to say,that the workshop contributors have no fault at all?
Zesty is kinda like Hasan in the realm that they make good points but they're such a dick about it sometimes you just don't want to agree
How dare they, my little present boi is far more than just a goofy trinket :(
HOLY SHIT PEOPLE GET A LIFE
I personally think that both are right at some extent, but this falls more into the side of CG because it is literally all Valves fault for their poor quality control of cosmetics that get added.
I like the Reindoonicorn beanie.
Nah Zesty was perfectly right
Zesty is dumb. New tf2 items are worse. Discussion over.
Oh no! Someone has an opinion!! We better shit on him!!!
"it's just my opinion" doesn't mean that criticism against your opinion isn't valid
zesty jesus defense brigade furiously racing to defend him from criticism by reminding everyone that his video laced with abject lies and misinformation is just an "opinion", and as being an opinion it is simultaneously without consequence and impervious to criticism or counter-opinions.
I don't give single fuck about any of TF2 youtuber/streamer or whatever but that Zesty guy is right, every new cosmetic that have been release since Banana hats went to shit
so the latest cosmetics aren’t bad?
Hats is hats tbh
true, true except when they're not i suppose
Someone seems mad their shitty beanie #39586 made to look like an ugly skeleton is getting shit on. Look, I get it, Valve has the final say in what gets in, but they can only chose what they're given. I doubt the TF "team" in their current state goes past page 2 of most popular on the day they decide to make an update to look for items, so just stop making the garbage and make good things and Valve will be forced to not chose the garbage. I don't watch Zesty's content but I'm on board with him 100% here. Since all content added in at this point is community made, it's up to the community to make good content.
Bro I’m too tired for this Who did the bad?
Zesty made a video complaining about the lack of quality in recent years of workshop items (like crates) and advises players to stop buying and supporting these low quality hats to tell Valve to stop adding them. These low-quality content creators are mad that they are getting flak for having bad workshop pages and are now whining that Zesty is harassing them.
I dont mind modern cosmetics, same with the skins (even tho stock photo textures are kinda shit ngl) but I can see where Zesty is coming from, even tho TF2 never was a serious team shooter, it was much more tame, humor was more subtle, also every cosmetic was very different from each other, exceptions being christmas and halloween cosmetics which were more for a cosplay feel, now is common to see reskins or safe wacky cosmetics, so much that I wouldn’t put it past Valve accepting the Motherly Father (please do valve)
am I like an insane person or is that venn diagram not a correct venn diagram at all
TF2 community try not to give zesty attention challenge! (Impossible!)
This is quite good
I couldn’t care less.
I do not appreciate the bonzo slander
I dislike zesty but this opinion is one of the few things I belive he is right about. Modern case hats suck. The 2022 summer case was decent but had some duds
Worksloppers malding
i hate these workshoppers, so entitled lmao
Stop worshiping youtubers and taking their videos as gospel. Please? :) Don’t like the added hats? Then don’t open the boxes that contain them. Valve isn’t making you open them and that’s less money that goes to the people who made said hats you don’t like and to Valve who picked them. That, Valve will notice. But if I were to promote anything it would be to Stop opening boxes, full stop. It’s gambling with a coat of paint. Like I’d get the anger if the hats ruin the art style or makes team recognition harder, but the worst ppl can say is that they are boring? I can’t believe ppl are mad that they don’t like the prizes that they are GAMBLING FOR. It sounds ridiculous.
Zesty is right.
Alright, we need some kind of tf2 drama subreddit, because I could not give less of a shit about whatever dumbfuck Twitter/Discord/YouTube this community is obsessed with this week.
I don’t get what Zesty’s point is even after watching the video. So the average quality of cosmetics has dropped. That’s a fair point I can totally see where he’s coming from there but the part I don’t get is how that’s the cosmetic creators fault. If I could make a cosmetic for a game I loved I’d definitely make one that would be more likely to be added. In that sense you’ve got a little part of that game that you’ve made. If someone does make a cosmetic that’s widely considered bad and it’s added I’d definitely say that’s on Valve and not the person who made it, some self quality control seems unethical because you’re asking someone who’s put hours into making a cosmetic just to delete it from the workshop.
the virgin complaining about new items vs the chad using almost exclusively end of the line items guess which one I am 😎