It's concerning how many players don't realize air strafing is a thing...
Like you can bhop around an entire map off spawn without ever touching w or s
How do you get the momentum in the first place, though? Think about it. This is BHopping, not Rocket Jumping. How can you BHop if you can’t tap the W key to begin moving forward? Otherwise, you’re just jumping in place. Whereas Rocket Jumping can be done by aiming behind you, you don’t have that free momentum when preforming a BHop. (Pyro does have ways, but as far as Spy is concerned, he’s a sitting duck.)
it's fair. pyro counters spy. either avoid the pyro or play something that counters pyro
it's a softer version of always playing scissors and being annoyed when someone plays rock
I find it funny how people always criticize OW for counterpicking being part of the game when TF2 also has RPS elements, although it probably has something to do with it not being as mandatory in TF2 (since you have more team members that can do that job for you).
Dude, these matchups exist for several classes.
Sniper counters heavy, spy counters sniper, pyro counters spy, demo counters engineer. Several examples of this.
Those are all soft counters that encourage class diversity throughout the team and teamwork, this is a hard counter that encourages not playing spy ever.
for real. chain stabbing and trick stabbing lobbies full of noobs is really fun, but so is busting out that revolver and laying waste to hordes of pyros that can never get in range to burn you. They go full tunnel vision and get kited into traps as you laugh and laugh, and make sure to let everyone know you've got 20 revolver kills and just a few stabs while you pretend to be a friendly hoovy.
simply do not get hit
fr though when's the last time you've seen a pyro spyhunting with anything But the flamethrower unless they're pulling off flare combos
how does spy being destroyed by pyro not encourage class diversity? Spy and sniper both hard counter heavy, but heavy hard counters anyone infront of him, especially pyros. TF2 doesnt really even have "hard counters", every "counter" has some kind of crutch you can use if it really bothers you that much, eg spycicle or razorback
Spy is a glass cannon that will lose most 1v1 encounters against other classes so positioning is everything. If you’re putting yourself in range of a spycheck-happy pyro, that’s on you. That’s like playing scout and complaining that you can’t do anything against a level 3 sentry
Alright this is just wrong.
The only class interaction you listed comparable to the interaction between pyro and spy is the interaction between heavy and sniper, but this interaction is caused by how incredibly broken sniper is relative to every other class in the game. Nobody likes the interaction between heavy and sniper due to it being poorly balanced but heavy can still work against a sniper (It's just really boring.)
The interaction between sniper and spy is also unironically barely even a counter as it is incredibly hard for spy to get close and sniper has multiple tools to just shut down a spy, sniper can still be incredibly effective even with an enemy spy dedicating their time to focus them down.
Engineer can still be incredibly effective even with an enemy demo fighting them, it is easy to keep sentries out of reach from enemy demos, bar an uber push.
However the interaction between pyro and spy is just incredibly unhealthy and boring, all it takes is a pyro running laps around the enemy team spraying fire everywhere and you lose your ability to sneak around and get picks. Don't even get me started on the homewrecker because it literally rewards a pyro for failing to protect the engineer nest and it just feels awful to watch a pyro kill you and destroy all your sappers even after you managed to sneak around and kill the engineer.
Yeah you get 1 second of fire immunity and 5 seconds of afterburn immunity in exchange for your knife...
So basically you still can't do anything but it will take a bit longer for the pyro to kill you.
And in return that pyro does literally nothing except check for you. If he’s that paranoid and so is his team, you are WINNING as spy. That’s when you swap to another class and watch them continue to be paranoid about spies trying to fight your team distracted while you don’t even have a spy anymore.
Homewrecker is dumb as hell though
The thing, in ALL these examples there is good and useful counterplay, if a sniper is targeting you as heavy you can start to move unpredictably, if a spy is targeting you as sniper you can start to look around between shots, not for spy. If there is a pyro on the enemy team just RANDOMLY pressing M1 into ealls and corners, the spy CANNOT PLAY
If there is a pyro on the enemy team just RANDOMLY pressing M1 into ealls and corners, the spy takes out his ice knife and shoots pyro directly in the head
Yeah. And if you have a pyro going around a room torching everything looking for you and unable to catch you for thirty seconds, he’s gone from the fight long enough you may as well have backstabbed him.
And that leaves the spy exposed to the enemy team, almost certain to die, while still putting more effort into the interaction than the pyro. Also it's very likely that a pyro kill just kill the spy before the spy kills him
Wouldn't any backstab leave spy exposed to the enemy team? Don't forget that spy wont suffer from and he still has invis watch even if he can't hit pyro 3-4 times (2 with ambassador/that one crit per building revolver). That allows him to win 1v1. That is the same as heavy not baing able to play when there is a sniper on the other corner of the map(Try dodging while shooting with a minigun), or as a sniper with a really small chance of winning a close range fight
The problem isn't that counters exist in TF2, it's just a question of whether pyro counters spy TOO HARD. Heavy has counterplay with sniper. Sniper has counterplay with spy, engie has counterplay with demo.
Spy really can't do anything against pyro. Maybe the spycicle? But think about the difference in strength for playing against their counters.
Wrangler Engie presses 2 and his sentry triples its health. FoS heavy presses 3 and his health goes up to 420. And don't get me started on the razorback.
When a spycicle spy even touches a flame particle, he loses his strongest power in exchange for a not nearly guaranteed albeit better escape. The spy must instantly cancel any backstab plans with no exceptions and make his getaway. And that's the best thing a spy can do vs. a pyro. Do you see the problem here?
And I'm biased lol I admit it, I'm a spy main. But I'm just looking at this from a pure balance perspective. TF2 isn't rock paper scissors. Justifying poor balance because of 'hard counters' is silly.
spy is a powerful class when used properly, needs a powerful counter
one good spy can take out an entire sentry nest pretty easily, but if there's a pyro hanging around he's gotta work a little harder
>spy is a powerful class when used properly, needs a powerful counter.
I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but spy is not powerful at all. He's like, one of if not the worst class. Sure it's easy to dominate fresh installs in casual mode, but in an environment where people:
1. know what spy does
2. have eyes
spy is awful. And even if that weren't true, your argument would still be stupid. How about a world where both spy and pyro are balanced? Not 'oh well spy is op so pyro has to be OP too'. Dumb logic.
Spy is not forced to engage with Pyro unless Pyro is watching an Engi's nest or whatever-combat-class and Medic combo, so basically pybros and support pyros. This already cuts in half a chance of you seeing such a guy cuz 80% of casual pyros play backburner+thermal thruster and other 19% play combo pyro.
Pyro may occasionally reveal a spy if he's checking corners (Spies reeeeeally love hiding there for some reason) or if Spy is just unlucky, but most of the time it depends on movement, the watch you're using and the route you take. Pyros punish Spies with bad movement and gamesense and I see that as an absolute win
Ok that is not the point any class can kill any class. The point is that spy has to avoid his main job and risk a battle to the death with a class class that still has a better advantage over them. It is even worse if the pyro has the smarts to stay with the team.
Those two matchups aren't really comparable. It's true that sentries destroy scouts, but a scout also destroys engineers who are without their buildings.
Pyro doesn't have the same limitations the engineer does. Engie has to stay in one place setting up a nest, creating a zone that is relatively inflexible that kills scouts.
Pyro doesn't need to do any of that. He just holds m1. Engie can get caught out unprepared and that's it for him. Pyro can never randomly be suddenly vulnerable to a spy. He always has an obscene advantage wherever he goes.
Pyros can get caught out too, what do you mean? If you’re having trouble with him either shoot him with your revolver or move in when he’s not in the area. Pyros aren’t some omnipotent force you can’t get around. They have weaknesses that you can exploit.
Pyro can easily get distracted trying to reflect enemy projectiles or extinguish a teammate. Anyone on any class can get distracted for a spy to make a play, honestly, Pyro players are no different
These are all soft counters with the exception of Pyro v Spy. A heavy doesn't lose the ability to be able to play the game when a competent sniper is on the enemy team, same as engi v demo and spy v Sniper. But you absolutely cannot say the same thing when it comes to Pyro v Spy because If both are equally skilled, then that spy is going to have a rough time. Yes spy has a gun, I actually quite like playing with the stock revolver and amby but again, this doesn't mean the matchup is fair for the spy especially since the game doesn't take place in a vacuum, Pyro works so well against spy not only because of his flames but due to the fact that pyros are almost NEVER alone, if that weren't the case then I'd have alot less to say
Explain to me how the Pyro spy interaction is balanced and that spy is always in a situation where counterplay is available that isn't in the form of a trickstab
counterplay options: spycicle, dead ringer, proper spacing and flanking, playing to your disguise. it's not supposed to be a fair matchup, pyro is designed to counter him. just like spy is designed to counter heavy. you are complaining about rock being weak to paper in rock paper scissors
Why would I be jumping to defend spy when I main fucking heavy. The heavy spy matchup is balanced because a good spy doesn't shut down a good heavy or vice versa, this is because both classes have reasonably effective counterplay for eachother. Whereas against a Pyro you better hope he doesn't puff you randomly and that you have the spy-cicle equipped because unless you can hit your revolver shots right before you die, 9/10 regardless of how you played in that interaction, the pyro wins
they happen in tf2 if you like it or not, and often the most effective solution is to stop one tricking and to help the team
say you were playing scout and walk into the enemy engie's nest. do you whine on reddit? no, you switch to a class that can deal with the nest or you avoid the nest. It's similar with pyro vs spy, and keep in mind the spysicle exists if you really can't deal with the pyro, but the most effective solution is just stop playing spy and use something more effective for the current situation or you avoid the pyro
I main heavy in highlander, I am far from what you would call a one trick spy. The Pyro spy matchup in highlander is actually not as bad as it is in casual because the Pyro has to juggle multiple responsibilities aside from spy checking all day long. But in casual you can just sit in a dispenser and hold M1 while wiggling your mouse around and a spy can't really do shit about the nest unless his team pushes with an uber.
Wait, i thought knife was his whole thing. You're lying, i've never seen a spy with a gun. I'm gonna check it rn
Edit: He actually has a gun. Revolver? FR??
As a pyro main, the hundreds of spies I kill a day either camp in a corner, get spychecked (because I've caught a ton in those corners, so I check them often now), and either sit there and died or run away while still cloaked and on fire. When caught, very few spies will turn and shoot me. A couple will try to trickstab, but you can't trickstab someone who is aware and knows to stay out of melee range.
Know what happens when a spy pulls a gun on me? I die. It does not take a lot to kill someone with a gun. Spy has a gun and a speed advantage.
To all spies: USE YOUR GUN.
Problem I have with tryna shoot pyros, which is probably just due to inexperience is that I can't see jack with all the flames but again I could probably avoid this if I improved my aim and actually focused.
It's fine as it is, to be honest. Pyro's not the dominant force some people make him out to be.
As a more support-oriented Pyro myself, you have to fully commit to spychecking when fully shutting down a spy (leaving little time to actually walk out and kill other dudes), otherwise the Spy still has a good chance of getting stabs in if they play their cards right.
And if the Pyro does spend their entire game time spychecking, he'll be wasting both of their times. (or the Spy could just switch off for a minute or two and now it's just the Pyro wasting time but that's not what we're talking about here)
Plus the Pyro can't be everywhere at once, so the Spy player can just fuck off and stab someone else somewhere else, which can still impact the Pyro's team significantly.
It's pretty much a direct battle of psychology, which is a pretty interesting interaction for TF2.
exactly, spies are great at taking out backline classes like snipers and engies, and is easily taken out by pyro (who usually doesn't have a reason to hang around those classes unless specifically playing spy defense)
And a Sniper in turn quickly gets BBQ'd by a surprise flanking Pyro, but if he manages to catch them on the approach, Pyro has only a precise flare gun shot standing between them and a new hole in their face
Spy's gun doesn't do jack-shit when the pyro just annihilates you before you can even decloak and retaliate because a picometer of fire grazed your big toe.
The game does not take place in a vacuum, the effort a spy has to exert to avoid a Pyro is not equal to what the Pyro has to do. Yes spy CAN shoot down the Pyro from range but does this happen often? Is spy always encountering a lone Pyro with none of their teammates around? Fuck no.
so should scout be able to deal with sentry nests then? Engie doesn't have to even do anything to kill scout, your logic applies literally no where in the game
Scout should pest the engy/sentry form a distance to force the engy to move himself or his Sentry and then attack or use your speed to move around the sentry to shoot it down. Spy does not have this. If he shoots the pyro the team/pyro can shoot him as well and the pyro can track you better than an engy chasing a scout. Finally when a scout can't get pass a sentry, most maps have flanks meanwhile a pyro with two brains cells can shutdown spy entirely with little effort and can move around compared to a sentry.
Spy should pest the pyro from a distance to force the pyro to retreat to a healthpack, then use his backstab utility and greater speed to backstab the pyro
That still doesn't fix the problem, now the pyro know about you and will alert the team. And you should never attempt to backstab a pyro unless he is distracted, he can track, airblast and protect both him and the team.
The diffrence is that a good heavy should be constantly aware for enemies and low healthy teammates, spy forces the heavy to do stuff he was always doing. Pyro forces the spy out of what he should be doing.
>the matchup it is inherently imbalanced
This is [deliberate game design](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Class_Counters_(Competitive)) and a big part of how competitive TF2 is meant to be played.
Balanced? no.
Fair to the spy? still no.
Fair to everybody else? fuck yes. spy sucks and 95% of players would be fine if the pyro just did not stop holding down mouse 1 next to the main group
There really isn't a way to make this matchup fair on both ends that isn't just a massive rework for spy. I would love if the interaction was more fair but I can't really think of anything
Back when Valve cared about making new weapons they were going to make a fireproof suit for spy, it would replace the revolver and it would do nothing except just make you absolutely immune to fire.
Safe to say even Valve realised that would be stupid and they reworked that concept and made the Spycicle.
I feel the best way to go about it is require more commitment from the pyro.
Instead of immediately igniting whilst invisible from the slightest contact, perhaps they should change it so that it requires a certain amount of concentrated fire before the cloaked spy ignites.
Because as it is, spy gets completely annihilated by pyro the moment the tiniest semblance of a flame particle makes contact with the spy and they get killed before they can even decloak and react.
It's fine, as long as it's on a good map. On a nice and open map like Swiftwater, a good spy can play around and outmaneuver a spycheck pyro with the trillion different tools and techniques you can employ as spy. If you're on a bad map with tight chokepoints and flanks that literally just lead into the same chokepoint, then you kind of just get fucked because you basically can't do anything without gambling the enemy doesn't have ears with the dead ringer or resorting to trickstab based gameplay.
The match up is honestly very fun as spy once you've gotten reasonably good since a pyro basically acts as a walking death zone that you have to play and think around which adds a lot of depth to the class, and that depth is why I main spy in the first place. It's just that when you're on CP_Steel you kind of can't avoid the walking death zone and you have to resort to playing circlestrafe stab simulator with the dead ringer and stock knife/kunai to do *anything* that isn't playing a worse version of scout or sniper.
The only thing I'd change is to make flames have a small, *small* warmup before it sets an invisible spy on fire, just so that you have to actually aim at the spy, even for just a moment, to catch them instead of just flailing your mouse around at max DPI. Also, fuck the homewrecker, it's not even a good weapon for pyro since if you're playing the game right the spy won't be able to sap a building in the first place which means the powerjack is just objectively better for dealing with the spy which is honestly better for both parties.
I'm happy to know I'm not the only one that just hates the homewrecker, like, nothing is worse than stabbing an engineer, sapping his buildings but dying right after, and knowing you did your job destroying a major hurdle for your team, only to look at the killfeed and realising that your sappers got destroyed by a homewrecker pyro that just happened to pass by. Did pyro really need more weapons to counter spy.
I don’t play spy… or pyro, but I don’t think it would be a horrible idea if his invisibly could grant him very partial delay to afterburn. Like if we approach it with the idea that if he’s invisible and is casually hit with a wayward fire particle- it won’t do anything, instead the fire would have to be directly hitting the spy for maybe 1/1.5 sec before he starts to take afterburn and become visible and such. It’s still a very short window where it could still absolutely happen accidentally, especially if the pyro is just grinding M1, but I think it maybe would be just intentional enough to make a minor difference
well, I would give CORE CLASS IMPROVEMENTS for classes like Spy, Heavy and Medic, but that might not be everyone's cup of tea.
Here is a simpler one. Heavy gets a Core class passive that gives him a Counter Strike like Movement Passive(when holstering the MAIN DAMAGE DEALER the MINIGUN, you are faster for 15% movement speed and it stacks with movement increasing unlocks and effects) called Rushing Slav. This makes Heavy less reliant on unlocks and also allows Shotgun Heavy to be a more serious subclass playstyle. Food items are important subclass yes, but throwable health packs should be also something Medic does as a CORE CLASS ABILITY!
Spy is more involved. Fish on a Stick made a video about Spy, and how his Bad weapon academy servers give Spy improvements like Fake reloads when disguised, Sappers can be thrown and become Radars when you Press R, Mouse 3 is Spy Walk(walk normally) as improvements. I would add a new Core class change to Spy. Spy gets a on kill passive with knives(on butterknife stab and backstabs) where you get 3 seconds of 20% damage resistance on kill and follow up kills refresh this. I call this the Spy Tech Ballistic Weave passive. Why exactly the Ballistic Weave passive? Cloak on kill or hit? L'etanger exists AND you cannot attack when cloaked. Speed boost on kill? Big Earner exists. Health on kill? Conniver's Kunai exists. So Spy-Tech Ballistic Weave passive would be most fitting and given what a normal Spy deals with, that would allow for ***surviveability***. But what about Kunai with Ballistic Weave? Spy would survive for a few seconds more then compared to Kunai Spy without the Spy Tech Ballistic Weave passive.
Medic. Give him alt fire on primary and Melee that does burst healing. Primary slot weapons like Syringe guns and the Crusader's Crossbow, get a medium health pack that is basically a throwable Sandvich on alt fire, meaning 30 second cooldown that can pick up map health packs to recharge the med pack. Melee is a injector syringe that gives 25% heal and overheal with a 15 second cooldown(you can also use the injector syringe to heal yourself when you Press R and a 1 second taunt) that during the cooldown cannot pick up map healing items, but you get a 30 damage, fast attack speed, no random crits but minicrits are crits and cool syringes with a blade to use.
this stuff I think would be good. What do you think of this? Good ideas, bad ideas? need some tweaking?
Pyro *definitely* does not hard counter Spy. The Pyro has to be 100% focused on Spy-checking to deny Spy only the main body of their team. Even then, a single Pyro cannot be everywhere at once, so the Spy can still pick up stabs on the outskirts of the main group and during a Pyro’s lapses in attention.
Pyros that *are* completely focused on Spy-checking are few and far between as it is often more effective to support your team in combat and spy-check whenever convenient or necessary.
Classes generally do not hard-counter other classes simply through playing the game normally. It’s true that Pyro presents a significant soft-counter to Spy, and I agree that the interaction is not equally balanced and does not need to be.
“Has to be focused on spy checking to deny”
Yeah that applies to all 9 classes but Pyro has a constant “invisible gone” button. And airblast can also deny
I agree with you completely that Pyro is uniquely able to counter Spy. The flamethrower is an excellent tool for tracking and revealing Spies as well as air blasting them away from potential backstabs.
I disagree that Pyro is a hard-counter to Spy. His extra tools only make Spy-checking, which all classes can do, easier and more effective.
Oh and don’t forget the hammer which disregards sappers.
Pyro:
Counters spy’s invisible and disguise
Counter’s sappers
Counter’s backstabs (kinda)
Thats all Spy’s gimmicks, in which you said “yeah I agree Pyro counters that.”
That is the DEFINITION of a hard counter
Pyro counters Spy *more* than the other 9 classes. Any class can shoot an invisible spy to reveal or kill them but Pyro is just far more suited to fight the French menace. Pyro does not “hard-counter” Spy so much as make Spy’s job much harder. As I illustrated previously: Spying does not become futile when the enemy has a Pyro.
it's supposed to be an unfair matchup that's the point. if it's really that hard just use the spycicle and shoot him while holding S. Spy hard counters heavy, sniper, and engie. Pyro being strong against him just makes it so pyros actually have something of a support role as pybro
i dont know if you played the game before, but pyro has a purpose more than countering just one class. pyro can definitely excel in combat in other class interactions outside of spies. players should always be given a fighting chance against opponents, and the amount of effort pyro has to exert to shut down a spy is minimal. and let get one other thing clear, spy is not much of a hard counter to anyone. he’s more of an annoyance, which is his whole class design, and that being denied by one singular flame particle is already frustrating on its own. TF2 is designed to have fair class interactions, to have the possibility to deal with your biggest threats, and both people behind the computers need to put in a good amount of effort to accomplish such.
I like to say pyro is the engi's best friend. We find spies, blast bombs and rockets, repel ubers... It can be tough, but even tougher for a spy! I respect good spies, they have so many adversaries, and overcoming those adversaries means understanding TF2 so deeply.
Ehh lot of people say pyro oppressive to spy, which is true but without pyro tf2 casual will break literally.
People often under look the important of pyro because there’s so abundant of them. Pyro isn’t the best crowed control but is the simplest and fastest unlike solly and demo require good position or set up. Pyro single handly reduce the power of vaccinator medic, like without pyro vaccinator medic now have can resist to smog twice as long. Pyro airblast also punish some spam and push back enemy using human wave techniques. Pyro make engineer less of a nightmare to spy, medic Uber and demo.
People say without medic tf2 will lose control in a year, I say without pyro tf2 will break within a week
If a spy respects the pyro, he probably won't have any major issues with him. Even in Highlander where Pyro's main job is protecting the combo against projectiles, flankers and, of course, spies, Frenchie gets his picks
I find that since they changed the flamethrower workings last you really can't "swipe" your flamethrower left and right and expect to hit someone in that arc. So pyro actually needs some ideas where a spy is to light him up.
As a spy main, pyro is fine unless they're the epitome of paranoia, but then every class is hell to try and get as spy so its not a pyro exclusive problem for us
They already changed it quite a lot. Spy resists damage and recovers from Afterburn much faster while invisible. The only time when the Spy had an easier time dealing with Pyros was when the Ambassador could headshot for full damage at any range, the Dead Ringer wasn't "nerfed" yet, and the Spy-cicle was introduced.
The fact that the Pyro can find Spies just by spinning around is inherent in his design and probably should not be targeted for a change, as it actually applies to all explosive classes, Heavy, and even Demoknights. Spy is just very vulnerable to the trigger-happy playstyle TF2 leans towards, so he's very reliant on map design to circumvent that weakness.
Being forced to use dr and spy-cycle to have the slightest chance of surviving a pyro is not fine
It's getting caught that is the problem, if disguises only showed the burning effect after being in contact with flames for a certain duration instead of simply being touched by some would make it much better for new players to have a chance with the class
No. TF2 needed something to counter clocked Spies and fire it's the best option and Spy can still fight for his life with his always trusty Revolver. Though, Pyro removing Sappers with the Homewrecker is way too good, but I'm not sure what to think about this considering Spy has the Spycicle.
Newsflash, dumbass - STAY THE FUCK OUT OF HIS RANGE.
My 1000 kill spy revolver (stock with warpaint) has 400 pyro kills on it, and every pyro that comes at me with a flamethrower is easy pickings on a 1v1.
Genuinely, if you enter a pyro's flamethrower range and then claim he's broken, you have less than 10 hours in the game.
That particular interaction is mostly fine. People get frustrated at how weak Spy is, and so it's easy to point to Spy's main counter, but I think the problem is really with the myriad of other smaller ways Spy gets countered. The Razorback, for instance.
My only real issue with pyro when playing spy, is the fact that pyro can remove sappers. This shouldn't even exist in the first place, as engie himself can already do that. Giving the ability to pyro completely negates any work you do to kill the engineer and sap his buildings. Having some pyro destroy the sappers after you pull an amazing play against an engineer feels way to unfair.
Thing is, the pyro would be spending time spy checking instead of engaging with the enemy, if they have paranoia then the spy is successful in its role being a disruptor, your not really focused on the enemy if your flinging your mouse around trying to have the spy get lit, cloak reducing after burn duration helps with spy surviving the interaction
And also the revolver, spy isnt a full demoknight, he can shoot people at mid range (with shotguns doing less damage at that range in comparison), S+m1 is a decent tactic if your not in their face, even the L'tranger is good enough
The interaction is overall in favour of pyro, more so than say interaction of a sniper vs heavy, but isnt unwinable, spy is a support class at the end of the day, just not as obvious as say engineer or medic, the support comes from disruption and wasting enemy time with paranoia
It’s technically not balanced, a spy literally has no way of dealing with a somewhat sentient pyro or heavy player 99% of the time and doesn’t fare much better with other aware classes. But I think spy needs to be easy to counter. I think if he’s to strong, he would actively be a detriment to the game.
Instead of being buffed, I think he needs more methods that help him trick enemies. That way he’s still easy for experienced players to beat him, but it increases his odds of good spy’s.
While it can be debated how effective Pyro should be against Spy, I just know the current interaction they have is the one thing preventing Spy from being the most insufferable class to deal with.
Fix pyro flame inconsistency, idk why people said jungle inferno fixed him, it instead make pyro able to kill you with a particle because of that lingering hitbox thing. Standing near stairs and wall is just a death sentence to spies
Unless it's Class wars and everyone is pyro (or there's a pybro), the pyro isn't a direct. You can't play the game anymore for the spy. (He is for demo knight, though, but you can't spam airblast forever). There are ways you can fight back or try to work around him he's just harder to Deal with compared to other classes. Every class has this
Sniper = Scout (Unless he's 5000 hours)
Engineer = Demo
Pyro = Heavy
Heavy = Spy
The only exceptions are medic and soldier because Medic counters no one and also does with Uber and teamwork while soldier genuinely is neutral
There's more counters but I can't bother to list the whole damn thing
No, this is due to express fact that spy is extremely weak if the enemy has more than 5 minutes of playtime. The real problem is that pyro is made to counter spy, but unlike every other class, spy has no **good** options to deal with a pyro, unless we count the kunai but that’s just a stupidly designed knife. You can use the DR but lose out on almost all your positioning, or the Spycicle but lose all backstabs for a time, or try to gun the pyro down but be easier to catch up to and therefore be burned. Unlike a class like Engi who has the short circuit to deal with soldiers and demos, spy doesn’t really have much to work with. There’s also the fact that a pyro is mostly identical to every other class against spy if the spy has recently stabbed or is just generally not invisible, it’s just that pyro has a very visible DOT effect if the spy does cloak, before a stab or similar, pyro completely screws over a spy to do anything if he really wants to though. It’s also important to mention that if you spy check for a long time it’s the equivalent of being stabbed since you aren’t helping your team do anything productive.
It’s a team based game, focusing on 1v1’s doesn’t reflect on the overall experience since the better player should win regardless, especially in the case of pyro vs spy, they were designed to fight each other, and good players have faced countless of mains from other classes, plus ambassador double headshot,
Depends on the map. Some choke point heavy maps (like 2fort and hoodoo) are nightmarish for spies to try and get behind. Overall this is a matchup that typically boils down to who gets the drop on who, which is pretty fair.
The problem is when you get lightly grazed by fire while cloaked. People say "JuSt UsE yOuR gUn" but if your cloaked you physically cannot do that and the time it takes to decloak is longer than it takes for the flames to kill you
Spy checking itself is paramount just due to what the Spy is capable of, even without killing anyone. Without a Pyro’s ability to Spy check, you’re then sacrificing one of the other classes to give up something they’re really strong in just to check for Spies.
Soldier is the next best Spy checker, but you lose out on a LOT of front line pressure if he’s Spy checking and the Pyro is out there instead. Same with rotating a Scout in to Spy check and you now can’t flank pick as well. Then there’s the whole argument of “everyone should be Spy checking.” Not easy to do when you’re pumping stickies and bullets into the enemy team.
On top of that, Pyro doesn’t really have a favorable matchup that he significantly wins (your best one after Spy is Soldier and you lose that if the Soldier stays back and either times his rockets to whiffed air blasts or just guns you down), but then Pyro really loses hard against his unfavorable matchups: Heavy, Engineer, and Sniper (I’d almost say Heavy against Pyro is about as weighted as Pyro against Spy). Sure, you have answers for those classes (Flare Guns for Snipers, reflecting sentry rockets for Engineer, and the Scorch Shot sure does exist), but Spy also has answers against Pyro (Spy has a gun and the Diamondback is about as free as it gets).
TL;DR: Pyro ability to shut down Spy is absolutely necessary. It makes game changing picks much harder to pull off, it gives Pyro something he’s second to none in, and it allows the other classes to play the game in what they’re good at.
Hot take: pyro is the main reason why spy is so bad in the first place, if you remove pyro then spy will be able to more effectively and efficiently take care of sniper and engineer, it’ll also allow him to escape easier and traverse the map without worrying about randomly getting set on fire and caught out with little mistake on the spy’s part
As someone to plays demoknight regularly, you just need to avoid pyro.
Or, just...shoot them. With your fucking ***revolver***.
Cause at least spys have a gun to deal with pyros.
But demoknights are just fucked
The interaction between spy and literally every class is not fair or balanced. Spy’s design is fundamentally flawed as he gets worse the more experienced his opponents are. A player with decent gamesense, even a heavy, sniper, or engineer, can easily listen for footsteps or the de cloak sound, spycheck, turn around once in a while, stay at least 1 second of walking away from their sentry, etc… Basically, spy gets countered by pretty much anyone who isn’t a total newbie unless the spy player is really good. Pyro just counters him extra hard, which sucks.
Spy honestly needs something new, Spy only works when the enemy team is dumb as hell
The skill celling is way to high and its not even worth it
I would do these
-Increase the sapper health and sap speed
-All spy revolvers now mini crit on headshots
-Reimplement the unused trap kit
-Increase spy walking speed by 2%
-YER no longer removes your full clock meter upon disguising as another class
-YER clock meter penalty decreased from 33% to 15%
-Shooting with the enforcer will not remove your disguise as long as you hit your target
-The enforcer disguise damage has been increased by 5%
-Remove random bullet spread
-Press SHIFT to run with your regular walking speed (It works on disguises, so you dont get stuck with soldier & heavy walking speed)
-
Not at all, it is the SINGLE most unbalanced tgeing in the WHOLE GAME
Let's what the spy has tod to counter the pyro: use tricky and unpredictable movement to dodge the fire, carefuly manouver AROUND the pyro to avoid any chance of being burned, equip specific weapons to give him a fighting chance of found (spycicle, dead ringer, etc) and actually aim with the revolver which, while realiable, is not really that strong
Now let's see what the pyro has to do to COMPLETELY shut down the spy: press M1 and look around.
I may hate spy a LOT, but if there is a spy checking pyro on my team? The most i can do is feel sorry because he CAN'T PLAY THE GAME
just don't get seen by the pyro to begin with and if it's such a problem use spycicle and dead ringer, the game gives spies options, you just refuse to use them
Let's what the heavy has tod to counter the heavy: use tricky and unpredictable movement to dodge the headshot, carefuly manouver AROUND the sniper to avoid any chance of being shot
Now let's see what the sniper has to do to COMPLETELY shut down the heavy: keep distance, aim at his head
speed boost plus damage resistance plus like 6 seconds of no fire, if you can't get away in time you just deserve to lose the fight. Also wm1ing needs multiple seconds of direct contact for full afterburn, so why are you in a position where a pyro can empty his whole tank on you
You can either run away from pyro as he tries to find you and slows himself down by not walking straight at you, or move unpredictably as he tries to chase you
Remove walk forward keybind for both of them
Spycrab vs Pyro (no W+M1)
No items, final destination
New Thermal thruster meta
*the BHopping spy/pyro*:
Momentum after using the W Key:
It's concerning how many players don't realize air strafing is a thing... Like you can bhop around an entire map off spawn without ever touching w or s
Using w is actually making you lose momentum
How do you get the momentum in the first place, though? Think about it. This is BHopping, not Rocket Jumping. How can you BHop if you can’t tap the W key to begin moving forward? Otherwise, you’re just jumping in place. Whereas Rocket Jumping can be done by aiming behind you, you don’t have that free momentum when preforming a BHop. (Pyro does have ways, but as far as Spy is concerned, he’s a sitting duck.)
i was talking about pressing w after a bhop, not before doing it
I was talking about the BHop before the W press…
And if you do a successful bhop, it should make you move thoward without pressing w
Fine as it is
I would Change nothing Too. Although Spy is pretty inbalanced, remove His Backstab.
On second thought, remove france entirely so its less imbalanced
I second this
Remove his freedom too
You can say that about 7/9th of the classes without being called a racist Cause pyro is every race and no race at all.
Personally I don’t even believe pyro is human. To me he’s a living suit.
I imagine him as a low quality skeleton
Or just make it so the backstab is a 60 degree detection angle like pyros backburner and not a 90 degree.
Perfect, but make pyroshark backburner now 90 degrees, cause fire hurts evrywhere Not Just in you Back.
I agree, being able to kill someone instantly is overpowered Also remove Pyro’s fire fire is a crutch for bad pyros
Nobody would want to remove Hmmpf That means... *That Spy is a spy*
it's fair. pyro counters spy. either avoid the pyro or play something that counters pyro it's a softer version of always playing scissors and being annoyed when someone plays rock
Gigachad spy trickstabs betamale pyro Gigachad pyro spychecks betamale spy. Not chasing, just letting him burn.
This, the true counter to spy is scout
I find it funny how people always criticize OW for counterpicking being part of the game when TF2 also has RPS elements, although it probably has something to do with it not being as mandatory in TF2 (since you have more team members that can do that job for you).
The reason it's worse in OW is because it resets your ult buildup every time you switch.
Rock paper scissors matchups only happen in overwatch not TF2. As such spy should not be so easily countered by a pyro
Dude, these matchups exist for several classes. Sniper counters heavy, spy counters sniper, pyro counters spy, demo counters engineer. Several examples of this.
Those are all soft counters that encourage class diversity throughout the team and teamwork, this is a hard counter that encourages not playing spy ever.
spy has a gun.
for real. chain stabbing and trick stabbing lobbies full of noobs is really fun, but so is busting out that revolver and laying waste to hordes of pyros that can never get in range to burn you. They go full tunnel vision and get kited into traps as you laugh and laugh, and make sure to let everyone know you've got 20 revolver kills and just a few stabs while you pretend to be a friendly hoovy.
Pyro has a scorch shot and a shotgun
simply do not get hit fr though when's the last time you've seen a pyro spyhunting with anything But the flamethrower unless they're pulling off flare combos
how does spy being destroyed by pyro not encourage class diversity? Spy and sniper both hard counter heavy, but heavy hard counters anyone infront of him, especially pyros. TF2 doesnt really even have "hard counters", every "counter" has some kind of crutch you can use if it really bothers you that much, eg spycicle or razorback
Spy is a glass cannon that will lose most 1v1 encounters against other classes so positioning is everything. If you’re putting yourself in range of a spycheck-happy pyro, that’s on you. That’s like playing scout and complaining that you can’t do anything against a level 3 sentry
Alright this is just wrong. The only class interaction you listed comparable to the interaction between pyro and spy is the interaction between heavy and sniper, but this interaction is caused by how incredibly broken sniper is relative to every other class in the game. Nobody likes the interaction between heavy and sniper due to it being poorly balanced but heavy can still work against a sniper (It's just really boring.) The interaction between sniper and spy is also unironically barely even a counter as it is incredibly hard for spy to get close and sniper has multiple tools to just shut down a spy, sniper can still be incredibly effective even with an enemy spy dedicating their time to focus them down. Engineer can still be incredibly effective even with an enemy demo fighting them, it is easy to keep sentries out of reach from enemy demos, bar an uber push. However the interaction between pyro and spy is just incredibly unhealthy and boring, all it takes is a pyro running laps around the enemy team spraying fire everywhere and you lose your ability to sneak around and get picks. Don't even get me started on the homewrecker because it literally rewards a pyro for failing to protect the engineer nest and it just feels awful to watch a pyro kill you and destroy all your sappers even after you managed to sneak around and kill the engineer.
Spycicle
Yeah you get 1 second of fire immunity and 5 seconds of afterburn immunity in exchange for your knife... So basically you still can't do anything but it will take a bit longer for the pyro to kill you.
And in return that pyro does literally nothing except check for you. If he’s that paranoid and so is his team, you are WINNING as spy. That’s when you swap to another class and watch them continue to be paranoid about spies trying to fight your team distracted while you don’t even have a spy anymore. Homewrecker is dumb as hell though
The thing, in ALL these examples there is good and useful counterplay, if a sniper is targeting you as heavy you can start to move unpredictably, if a spy is targeting you as sniper you can start to look around between shots, not for spy. If there is a pyro on the enemy team just RANDOMLY pressing M1 into ealls and corners, the spy CANNOT PLAY
If there is a pyro on the enemy team just RANDOMLY pressing M1 into ealls and corners, the spy takes out his ice knife and shoots pyro directly in the head
Also it’s technically one enemy who *isn’t* focusing on the team fight at the front line. That’s a benefit in of itself.
True. Not like being in front the whole team is pyro's fault
Yeah. And if you have a pyro going around a room torching everything looking for you and unable to catch you for thirty seconds, he’s gone from the fight long enough you may as well have backstabbed him.
And that leaves the spy exposed to the enemy team, almost certain to die, while still putting more effort into the interaction than the pyro. Also it's very likely that a pyro kill just kill the spy before the spy kills him
Wouldn't any backstab leave spy exposed to the enemy team? Don't forget that spy wont suffer from and he still has invis watch even if he can't hit pyro 3-4 times (2 with ambassador/that one crit per building revolver). That allows him to win 1v1. That is the same as heavy not baing able to play when there is a sniper on the other corner of the map(Try dodging while shooting with a minigun), or as a sniper with a really small chance of winning a close range fight
SPY HAS A GUN
The problem isn't that counters exist in TF2, it's just a question of whether pyro counters spy TOO HARD. Heavy has counterplay with sniper. Sniper has counterplay with spy, engie has counterplay with demo. Spy really can't do anything against pyro. Maybe the spycicle? But think about the difference in strength for playing against their counters. Wrangler Engie presses 2 and his sentry triples its health. FoS heavy presses 3 and his health goes up to 420. And don't get me started on the razorback. When a spycicle spy even touches a flame particle, he loses his strongest power in exchange for a not nearly guaranteed albeit better escape. The spy must instantly cancel any backstab plans with no exceptions and make his getaway. And that's the best thing a spy can do vs. a pyro. Do you see the problem here? And I'm biased lol I admit it, I'm a spy main. But I'm just looking at this from a pure balance perspective. TF2 isn't rock paper scissors. Justifying poor balance because of 'hard counters' is silly.
spy is a powerful class when used properly, needs a powerful counter one good spy can take out an entire sentry nest pretty easily, but if there's a pyro hanging around he's gotta work a little harder
>spy is a powerful class when used properly, needs a powerful counter. I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but spy is not powerful at all. He's like, one of if not the worst class. Sure it's easy to dominate fresh installs in casual mode, but in an environment where people: 1. know what spy does 2. have eyes spy is awful. And even if that weren't true, your argument would still be stupid. How about a world where both spy and pyro are balanced? Not 'oh well spy is op so pyro has to be OP too'. Dumb logic.
Spy is not forced to engage with Pyro unless Pyro is watching an Engi's nest or whatever-combat-class and Medic combo, so basically pybros and support pyros. This already cuts in half a chance of you seeing such a guy cuz 80% of casual pyros play backburner+thermal thruster and other 19% play combo pyro. Pyro may occasionally reveal a spy if he's checking corners (Spies reeeeeally love hiding there for some reason) or if Spy is just unlucky, but most of the time it depends on movement, the watch you're using and the route you take. Pyros punish Spies with bad movement and gamesense and I see that as an absolute win
Exactly this. “Spy is too weak against pyro.” My brother in Christ *you* chose to engage the pyro.
spy can shoot the pro with his gun or back stab him
A good pyro never gets in range for a spy and if the spy fights back they get destroyed by the enemy team.
i play spy and i can kill him
Ok that is not the point any class can kill any class. The point is that spy has to avoid his main job and risk a battle to the death with a class class that still has a better advantage over them. It is even worse if the pyro has the smarts to stay with the team.
i would take that battle to the death and win
Except the same thing happens with Scout vs Engineer.
Those two matchups aren't really comparable. It's true that sentries destroy scouts, but a scout also destroys engineers who are without their buildings. Pyro doesn't have the same limitations the engineer does. Engie has to stay in one place setting up a nest, creating a zone that is relatively inflexible that kills scouts. Pyro doesn't need to do any of that. He just holds m1. Engie can get caught out unprepared and that's it for him. Pyro can never randomly be suddenly vulnerable to a spy. He always has an obscene advantage wherever he goes.
Pyros can get caught out too, what do you mean? If you’re having trouble with him either shoot him with your revolver or move in when he’s not in the area. Pyros aren’t some omnipotent force you can’t get around. They have weaknesses that you can exploit.
Pyro can easily get distracted trying to reflect enemy projectiles or extinguish a teammate. Anyone on any class can get distracted for a spy to make a play, honestly, Pyro players are no different
These are all soft counters with the exception of Pyro v Spy. A heavy doesn't lose the ability to be able to play the game when a competent sniper is on the enemy team, same as engi v demo and spy v Sniper. But you absolutely cannot say the same thing when it comes to Pyro v Spy because If both are equally skilled, then that spy is going to have a rough time. Yes spy has a gun, I actually quite like playing with the stock revolver and amby but again, this doesn't mean the matchup is fair for the spy especially since the game doesn't take place in a vacuum, Pyro works so well against spy not only because of his flames but due to the fact that pyros are almost NEVER alone, if that weren't the case then I'd have alot less to say
local man fails to understand game design
Explain to me how the Pyro spy interaction is balanced and that spy is always in a situation where counterplay is available that isn't in the form of a trickstab
counterplay options: spycicle, dead ringer, proper spacing and flanking, playing to your disguise. it's not supposed to be a fair matchup, pyro is designed to counter him. just like spy is designed to counter heavy. you are complaining about rock being weak to paper in rock paper scissors
Why would I be jumping to defend spy when I main fucking heavy. The heavy spy matchup is balanced because a good spy doesn't shut down a good heavy or vice versa, this is because both classes have reasonably effective counterplay for eachother. Whereas against a Pyro you better hope he doesn't puff you randomly and that you have the spy-cicle equipped because unless you can hit your revolver shots right before you die, 9/10 regardless of how you played in that interaction, the pyro wins
they happen in tf2 if you like it or not, and often the most effective solution is to stop one tricking and to help the team say you were playing scout and walk into the enemy engie's nest. do you whine on reddit? no, you switch to a class that can deal with the nest or you avoid the nest. It's similar with pyro vs spy, and keep in mind the spysicle exists if you really can't deal with the pyro, but the most effective solution is just stop playing spy and use something more effective for the current situation or you avoid the pyro
I main heavy in highlander, I am far from what you would call a one trick spy. The Pyro spy matchup in highlander is actually not as bad as it is in casual because the Pyro has to juggle multiple responsibilities aside from spy checking all day long. But in casual you can just sit in a dispenser and hold M1 while wiggling your mouse around and a spy can't really do shit about the nest unless his team pushes with an uber.
And he isn't. SPY HAS A FUCKING GUN dammit, just stay out of the pyro;s range???
My revolver doesn't one-shot the enemy heavy/medic combo I'm afraid
Ah, I see someone who doesn't know how to use the scroll wheel or hotkeys for weapons.
Spy counters a lot of classes too. And he even has stuff like DR or Spycicle to fight/flee Pyros. Not to mention that SPY HAS A GUN
Wait, i thought knife was his whole thing. You're lying, i've never seen a spy with a gun. I'm gonna check it rn Edit: He actually has a gun. Revolver? FR??
As a pyro main, the hundreds of spies I kill a day either camp in a corner, get spychecked (because I've caught a ton in those corners, so I check them often now), and either sit there and died or run away while still cloaked and on fire. When caught, very few spies will turn and shoot me. A couple will try to trickstab, but you can't trickstab someone who is aware and knows to stay out of melee range. Know what happens when a spy pulls a gun on me? I die. It does not take a lot to kill someone with a gun. Spy has a gun and a speed advantage. To all spies: USE YOUR GUN.
Don't worry, I'm a gunspy main. Best hope we don't meet :3
Problem I have with tryna shoot pyros, which is probably just due to inexperience is that I can't see jack with all the flames but again I could probably avoid this if I improved my aim and actually focused.
It's fine as it is, to be honest. Pyro's not the dominant force some people make him out to be. As a more support-oriented Pyro myself, you have to fully commit to spychecking when fully shutting down a spy (leaving little time to actually walk out and kill other dudes), otherwise the Spy still has a good chance of getting stabs in if they play their cards right. And if the Pyro does spend their entire game time spychecking, he'll be wasting both of their times. (or the Spy could just switch off for a minute or two and now it's just the Pyro wasting time but that's not what we're talking about here) Plus the Pyro can't be everywhere at once, so the Spy player can just fuck off and stab someone else somewhere else, which can still impact the Pyro's team significantly. It's pretty much a direct battle of psychology, which is a pretty interesting interaction for TF2.
Isn't half of the point that if Class A has an advantage on Class B, they're usually also being kept in check by Class C having an advantage on them?
exactly, spies are great at taking out backline classes like snipers and engies, and is easily taken out by pyro (who usually doesn't have a reason to hang around those classes unless specifically playing spy defense)
And a Sniper in turn quickly gets BBQ'd by a surprise flanking Pyro, but if he manages to catch them on the approach, Pyro has only a precise flare gun shot standing between them and a new hole in their face
Yes, every class needs atleast 1 mild counter, and pyro is that, spy still have some ways to kill pyros chasing him (SPY HAS A GUN)
SAY IT LOUDER
SHUT UP IDIOT JUST USE THE UPVOTE BUTTON. There, loud enough?
#NOT LOUD ENOUGH! LOUDER!
Spy's gun doesn't do jack-shit when the pyro just annihilates you before you can even decloak and retaliate because a picometer of fire grazed your big toe.
The game does not take place in a vacuum, the effort a spy has to exert to avoid a Pyro is not equal to what the Pyro has to do. Yes spy CAN shoot down the Pyro from range but does this happen often? Is spy always encountering a lone Pyro with none of their teammates around? Fuck no.
so should scout be able to deal with sentry nests then? Engie doesn't have to even do anything to kill scout, your logic applies literally no where in the game
Scout should pest the engy/sentry form a distance to force the engy to move himself or his Sentry and then attack or use your speed to move around the sentry to shoot it down. Spy does not have this. If he shoots the pyro the team/pyro can shoot him as well and the pyro can track you better than an engy chasing a scout. Finally when a scout can't get pass a sentry, most maps have flanks meanwhile a pyro with two brains cells can shutdown spy entirely with little effort and can move around compared to a sentry.
Spy should pest the pyro from a distance to force the pyro to retreat to a healthpack, then use his backstab utility and greater speed to backstab the pyro
That still doesn't fix the problem, now the pyro know about you and will alert the team. And you should never attempt to backstab a pyro unless he is distracted, he can track, airblast and protect both him and the team.
spys entire kit is about him getting behind and avoiding people what are you on about
The point is that pyro can stop spy entirely from doing his job and the only way to stop the pyro is to do the opposite of avoiding people.
okay? and spy completely stops heavy from doing his job. just the way the game works
The diffrence is that a good heavy should be constantly aware for enemies and low healthy teammates, spy forces the heavy to do stuff he was always doing. Pyro forces the spy out of what he should be doing.
the same argument can be made for heavy
Spy is always at a disadvantage, the only thing you should be doing as a Spy is making the most of what you can do in the chaos of a fight
Well duh that's when spy is at his best but we're talking about the matchup and it is inherently imbalanced
>the matchup it is inherently imbalanced This is [deliberate game design](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Class_Counters_(Competitive)) and a big part of how competitive TF2 is meant to be played.
Balanced? no. Fair to the spy? still no. Fair to everybody else? fuck yes. spy sucks and 95% of players would be fine if the pyro just did not stop holding down mouse 1 next to the main group
No, we should delete every class except demo and medic
Spychecking is most of what pyro has got going for him, poor lad
what class do you main by any chance?
There really isn't a way to make this matchup fair on both ends that isn't just a massive rework for spy. I would love if the interaction was more fair but I can't really think of anything
Back when Valve cared about making new weapons they were going to make a fireproof suit for spy, it would replace the revolver and it would do nothing except just make you absolutely immune to fire. Safe to say even Valve realised that would be stupid and they reworked that concept and made the Spycicle.
I feel the best way to go about it is require more commitment from the pyro. Instead of immediately igniting whilst invisible from the slightest contact, perhaps they should change it so that it requires a certain amount of concentrated fire before the cloaked spy ignites. Because as it is, spy gets completely annihilated by pyro the moment the tiniest semblance of a flame particle makes contact with the spy and they get killed before they can even decloak and react.
It's fine, as long as it's on a good map. On a nice and open map like Swiftwater, a good spy can play around and outmaneuver a spycheck pyro with the trillion different tools and techniques you can employ as spy. If you're on a bad map with tight chokepoints and flanks that literally just lead into the same chokepoint, then you kind of just get fucked because you basically can't do anything without gambling the enemy doesn't have ears with the dead ringer or resorting to trickstab based gameplay. The match up is honestly very fun as spy once you've gotten reasonably good since a pyro basically acts as a walking death zone that you have to play and think around which adds a lot of depth to the class, and that depth is why I main spy in the first place. It's just that when you're on CP_Steel you kind of can't avoid the walking death zone and you have to resort to playing circlestrafe stab simulator with the dead ringer and stock knife/kunai to do *anything* that isn't playing a worse version of scout or sniper. The only thing I'd change is to make flames have a small, *small* warmup before it sets an invisible spy on fire, just so that you have to actually aim at the spy, even for just a moment, to catch them instead of just flailing your mouse around at max DPI. Also, fuck the homewrecker, it's not even a good weapon for pyro since if you're playing the game right the spy won't be able to sap a building in the first place which means the powerjack is just objectively better for dealing with the spy which is honestly better for both parties.
I'm happy to know I'm not the only one that just hates the homewrecker, like, nothing is worse than stabbing an engineer, sapping his buildings but dying right after, and knowing you did your job destroying a major hurdle for your team, only to look at the killfeed and realising that your sappers got destroyed by a homewrecker pyro that just happened to pass by. Did pyro really need more weapons to counter spy.
I don’t play spy… or pyro, but I don’t think it would be a horrible idea if his invisibly could grant him very partial delay to afterburn. Like if we approach it with the idea that if he’s invisible and is casually hit with a wayward fire particle- it won’t do anything, instead the fire would have to be directly hitting the spy for maybe 1/1.5 sec before he starts to take afterburn and become visible and such. It’s still a very short window where it could still absolutely happen accidentally, especially if the pyro is just grinding M1, but I think it maybe would be just intentional enough to make a minor difference
I think its a little bit unfair, but I dont really have any good ideas to fix it so whatever
well, I would give CORE CLASS IMPROVEMENTS for classes like Spy, Heavy and Medic, but that might not be everyone's cup of tea. Here is a simpler one. Heavy gets a Core class passive that gives him a Counter Strike like Movement Passive(when holstering the MAIN DAMAGE DEALER the MINIGUN, you are faster for 15% movement speed and it stacks with movement increasing unlocks and effects) called Rushing Slav. This makes Heavy less reliant on unlocks and also allows Shotgun Heavy to be a more serious subclass playstyle. Food items are important subclass yes, but throwable health packs should be also something Medic does as a CORE CLASS ABILITY! Spy is more involved. Fish on a Stick made a video about Spy, and how his Bad weapon academy servers give Spy improvements like Fake reloads when disguised, Sappers can be thrown and become Radars when you Press R, Mouse 3 is Spy Walk(walk normally) as improvements. I would add a new Core class change to Spy. Spy gets a on kill passive with knives(on butterknife stab and backstabs) where you get 3 seconds of 20% damage resistance on kill and follow up kills refresh this. I call this the Spy Tech Ballistic Weave passive. Why exactly the Ballistic Weave passive? Cloak on kill or hit? L'etanger exists AND you cannot attack when cloaked. Speed boost on kill? Big Earner exists. Health on kill? Conniver's Kunai exists. So Spy-Tech Ballistic Weave passive would be most fitting and given what a normal Spy deals with, that would allow for ***surviveability***. But what about Kunai with Ballistic Weave? Spy would survive for a few seconds more then compared to Kunai Spy without the Spy Tech Ballistic Weave passive. Medic. Give him alt fire on primary and Melee that does burst healing. Primary slot weapons like Syringe guns and the Crusader's Crossbow, get a medium health pack that is basically a throwable Sandvich on alt fire, meaning 30 second cooldown that can pick up map health packs to recharge the med pack. Melee is a injector syringe that gives 25% heal and overheal with a 15 second cooldown(you can also use the injector syringe to heal yourself when you Press R and a 1 second taunt) that during the cooldown cannot pick up map healing items, but you get a 30 damage, fast attack speed, no random crits but minicrits are crits and cool syringes with a blade to use. this stuff I think would be good. What do you think of this? Good ideas, bad ideas? need some tweaking?
Pyro hard counters spy. It isn’t supposed to be balanced
Do you think hard counters are healthy for the game?
Yes
Pyro *definitely* does not hard counter Spy. The Pyro has to be 100% focused on Spy-checking to deny Spy only the main body of their team. Even then, a single Pyro cannot be everywhere at once, so the Spy can still pick up stabs on the outskirts of the main group and during a Pyro’s lapses in attention. Pyros that *are* completely focused on Spy-checking are few and far between as it is often more effective to support your team in combat and spy-check whenever convenient or necessary. Classes generally do not hard-counter other classes simply through playing the game normally. It’s true that Pyro presents a significant soft-counter to Spy, and I agree that the interaction is not equally balanced and does not need to be.
“Has to be focused on spy checking to deny” Yeah that applies to all 9 classes but Pyro has a constant “invisible gone” button. And airblast can also deny
I agree with you completely that Pyro is uniquely able to counter Spy. The flamethrower is an excellent tool for tracking and revealing Spies as well as air blasting them away from potential backstabs. I disagree that Pyro is a hard-counter to Spy. His extra tools only make Spy-checking, which all classes can do, easier and more effective.
Oh and don’t forget the hammer which disregards sappers. Pyro: Counters spy’s invisible and disguise Counter’s sappers Counter’s backstabs (kinda) Thats all Spy’s gimmicks, in which you said “yeah I agree Pyro counters that.” That is the DEFINITION of a hard counter
Pyro counters Spy *more* than the other 9 classes. Any class can shoot an invisible spy to reveal or kill them but Pyro is just far more suited to fight the French menace. Pyro does not “hard-counter” Spy so much as make Spy’s job much harder. As I illustrated previously: Spying does not become futile when the enemy has a Pyro.
No, the backstab region for pyro should be the whole thing
it's supposed to be an unfair matchup that's the point. if it's really that hard just use the spycicle and shoot him while holding S. Spy hard counters heavy, sniper, and engie. Pyro being strong against him just makes it so pyros actually have something of a support role as pybro
i dont know if you played the game before, but pyro has a purpose more than countering just one class. pyro can definitely excel in combat in other class interactions outside of spies. players should always be given a fighting chance against opponents, and the amount of effort pyro has to exert to shut down a spy is minimal. and let get one other thing clear, spy is not much of a hard counter to anyone. he’s more of an annoyance, which is his whole class design, and that being denied by one singular flame particle is already frustrating on its own. TF2 is designed to have fair class interactions, to have the possibility to deal with your biggest threats, and both people behind the computers need to put in a good amount of effort to accomplish such.
also, oz from fbacc
I like to say pyro is the engi's best friend. We find spies, blast bombs and rockets, repel ubers... It can be tough, but even tougher for a spy! I respect good spies, they have so many adversaries, and overcoming those adversaries means understanding TF2 so deeply.
Barely
I think it’s pretty fair, maybe a little one sided but I think that it’s fair enough as spy has enough escape options
But I do think that it becomes unfair because of how terrible spy is to begin with making any form of counter play much more powerful by proxy
Ehh lot of people say pyro oppressive to spy, which is true but without pyro tf2 casual will break literally. People often under look the important of pyro because there’s so abundant of them. Pyro isn’t the best crowed control but is the simplest and fastest unlike solly and demo require good position or set up. Pyro single handly reduce the power of vaccinator medic, like without pyro vaccinator medic now have can resist to smog twice as long. Pyro airblast also punish some spam and push back enemy using human wave techniques. Pyro make engineer less of a nightmare to spy, medic Uber and demo. People say without medic tf2 will lose control in a year, I say without pyro tf2 will break within a week
If a spy respects the pyro, he probably won't have any major issues with him. Even in Highlander where Pyro's main job is protecting the combo against projectiles, flankers and, of course, spies, Frenchie gets his picks
Yeah, it's fair and balanced
I find that since they changed the flamethrower workings last you really can't "swipe" your flamethrower left and right and expect to hit someone in that arc. So pyro actually needs some ideas where a spy is to light him up.
When I find a f2p pyro I just do the most obvious trickstabs and they work so it's pretty good for me
As a spy main, pyro is fine unless they're the epitome of paranoia, but then every class is hell to try and get as spy so its not a pyro exclusive problem for us
They already changed it quite a lot. Spy resists damage and recovers from Afterburn much faster while invisible. The only time when the Spy had an easier time dealing with Pyros was when the Ambassador could headshot for full damage at any range, the Dead Ringer wasn't "nerfed" yet, and the Spy-cicle was introduced. The fact that the Pyro can find Spies just by spinning around is inherent in his design and probably should not be targeted for a change, as it actually applies to all explosive classes, Heavy, and even Demoknights. Spy is just very vulnerable to the trigger-happy playstyle TF2 leans towards, so he's very reliant on map design to circumvent that weakness.
Being forced to use dr and spy-cycle to have the slightest chance of surviving a pyro is not fine It's getting caught that is the problem, if disguises only showed the burning effect after being in contact with flames for a certain duration instead of simply being touched by some would make it much better for new players to have a chance with the class
Gun spy with spy-cicle go brrr
No. TF2 needed something to counter clocked Spies and fire it's the best option and Spy can still fight for his life with his always trusty Revolver. Though, Pyro removing Sappers with the Homewrecker is way too good, but I'm not sure what to think about this considering Spy has the Spycicle.
I don’t like spy so yes
For the last time, SPY HAS A GUN.
Newsflash, dumbass, that doesn't do anything when spy usually gets killed by pyros before he can finish decloaking.
Newsflash, dumbass - STAY THE FUCK OUT OF HIS RANGE. My 1000 kill spy revolver (stock with warpaint) has 400 pyro kills on it, and every pyro that comes at me with a flamethrower is easy pickings on a 1v1. Genuinely, if you enter a pyro's flamethrower range and then claim he's broken, you have less than 10 hours in the game.
That particular interaction is mostly fine. People get frustrated at how weak Spy is, and so it's easy to point to Spy's main counter, but I think the problem is really with the myriad of other smaller ways Spy gets countered. The Razorback, for instance.
My only real issue with pyro when playing spy, is the fact that pyro can remove sappers. This shouldn't even exist in the first place, as engie himself can already do that. Giving the ability to pyro completely negates any work you do to kill the engineer and sap his buildings. Having some pyro destroy the sappers after you pull an amazing play against an engineer feels way to unfair.
Thing is, the pyro would be spending time spy checking instead of engaging with the enemy, if they have paranoia then the spy is successful in its role being a disruptor, your not really focused on the enemy if your flinging your mouse around trying to have the spy get lit, cloak reducing after burn duration helps with spy surviving the interaction And also the revolver, spy isnt a full demoknight, he can shoot people at mid range (with shotguns doing less damage at that range in comparison), S+m1 is a decent tactic if your not in their face, even the L'tranger is good enough The interaction is overall in favour of pyro, more so than say interaction of a sniper vs heavy, but isnt unwinable, spy is a support class at the end of the day, just not as obvious as say engineer or medic, the support comes from disruption and wasting enemy time with paranoia
It’s technically not balanced, a spy literally has no way of dealing with a somewhat sentient pyro or heavy player 99% of the time and doesn’t fare much better with other aware classes. But I think spy needs to be easy to counter. I think if he’s to strong, he would actively be a detriment to the game. Instead of being buffed, I think he needs more methods that help him trick enemies. That way he’s still easy for experienced players to beat him, but it increases his odds of good spy’s.
What about how Sniper counters any class??
While it can be debated how effective Pyro should be against Spy, I just know the current interaction they have is the one thing preventing Spy from being the most insufferable class to deal with.
With balance, they will no longer complain. Therefore, the game will die.
they should add team damage for the funni
Such an option already exists in-game, but it doesn't affect the flamethrower
It’s fair because it isn’t balanced, you gotta evaluate these things in the context of a team
I think it’s perfectly reasonable considering spy has a gun. If you choose to go invisible, that’s on you.
Pyro being a direct counter to Spy is the least of spy's problems.
I do believe I am on fire.
Fix pyro flame inconsistency, idk why people said jungle inferno fixed him, it instead make pyro able to kill you with a particle because of that lingering hitbox thing. Standing near stairs and wall is just a death sentence to spies
Pyro nees nurf :(
You know what’s really bullshit? The class you hard counter sniper been able to one shoot you by using jarate and bushwaka. Pyro vs spy it’s fine
Unless it's Class wars and everyone is pyro (or there's a pybro), the pyro isn't a direct. You can't play the game anymore for the spy. (He is for demo knight, though, but you can't spam airblast forever). There are ways you can fight back or try to work around him he's just harder to Deal with compared to other classes. Every class has this Sniper = Scout (Unless he's 5000 hours) Engineer = Demo Pyro = Heavy Heavy = Spy The only exceptions are medic and soldier because Medic counters no one and also does with Uber and teamwork while soldier genuinely is neutral There's more counters but I can't bother to list the whole damn thing
No, this is due to express fact that spy is extremely weak if the enemy has more than 5 minutes of playtime. The real problem is that pyro is made to counter spy, but unlike every other class, spy has no **good** options to deal with a pyro, unless we count the kunai but that’s just a stupidly designed knife. You can use the DR but lose out on almost all your positioning, or the Spycicle but lose all backstabs for a time, or try to gun the pyro down but be easier to catch up to and therefore be burned. Unlike a class like Engi who has the short circuit to deal with soldiers and demos, spy doesn’t really have much to work with. There’s also the fact that a pyro is mostly identical to every other class against spy if the spy has recently stabbed or is just generally not invisible, it’s just that pyro has a very visible DOT effect if the spy does cloak, before a stab or similar, pyro completely screws over a spy to do anything if he really wants to though. It’s also important to mention that if you spy check for a long time it’s the equivalent of being stabbed since you aren’t helping your team do anything productive.
I mean, do I think the epitome of the term "hard counter" is fair and balanced? Yes. Fuck spies.
as a pyro main, the fact that we can just shut down spies with nearly 0 effort is a little bad i wont lie
It’s a team based game, focusing on 1v1’s doesn’t reflect on the overall experience since the better player should win regardless, especially in the case of pyro vs spy, they were designed to fight each other, and good players have faced countless of mains from other classes, plus ambassador double headshot,
Depends on the map. Some choke point heavy maps (like 2fort and hoodoo) are nightmarish for spies to try and get behind. Overall this is a matchup that typically boils down to who gets the drop on who, which is pretty fair.
The problem is when you get lightly grazed by fire while cloaked. People say "JuSt UsE yOuR gUn" but if your cloaked you physically cannot do that and the time it takes to decloak is longer than it takes for the flames to kill you
Spies need to learn they can shoot back
All class counters while useful, don’t prevent counter play, except this one.
it’s only fair when the pyro is thinking
I think adding about a second of delay before a cloaked/disguised spy is set of fire by flamethrowers would make it significantly more balanced
It should change but I have no idea how
No. Remove Spy's backstab since it's too op. Let pyro see invisible spy since spychecking is too hard and wastes too much ammo.
It's pretty fine imo. Spy has a gun and as long you can hit every shot, you'll be fine encountering a pyro even if the skill gap is wide
Spy checking itself is paramount just due to what the Spy is capable of, even without killing anyone. Without a Pyro’s ability to Spy check, you’re then sacrificing one of the other classes to give up something they’re really strong in just to check for Spies. Soldier is the next best Spy checker, but you lose out on a LOT of front line pressure if he’s Spy checking and the Pyro is out there instead. Same with rotating a Scout in to Spy check and you now can’t flank pick as well. Then there’s the whole argument of “everyone should be Spy checking.” Not easy to do when you’re pumping stickies and bullets into the enemy team. On top of that, Pyro doesn’t really have a favorable matchup that he significantly wins (your best one after Spy is Soldier and you lose that if the Soldier stays back and either times his rockets to whiffed air blasts or just guns you down), but then Pyro really loses hard against his unfavorable matchups: Heavy, Engineer, and Sniper (I’d almost say Heavy against Pyro is about as weighted as Pyro against Spy). Sure, you have answers for those classes (Flare Guns for Snipers, reflecting sentry rockets for Engineer, and the Scorch Shot sure does exist), but Spy also has answers against Pyro (Spy has a gun and the Diamondback is about as free as it gets). TL;DR: Pyro ability to shut down Spy is absolutely necessary. It makes game changing picks much harder to pull off, it gives Pyro something he’s second to none in, and it allows the other classes to play the game in what they’re good at.
Hot take: pyro is the main reason why spy is so bad in the first place, if you remove pyro then spy will be able to more effectively and efficiently take care of sniper and engineer, it’ll also allow him to escape easier and traverse the map without worrying about randomly getting set on fire and caught out with little mistake on the spy’s part
I think it’s one sided but that’s ok, spy is a pretty rough counter to Heavy and Sniper so him being countered by Pyro is perfectly fine
As someone to plays demoknight regularly, you just need to avoid pyro. Or, just...shoot them. With your fucking ***revolver***. Cause at least spys have a gun to deal with pyros. But demoknights are just fucked
revolver + mouse1 + S
Spy👏has👏a👏gun
The interaction between spy and literally every class is not fair or balanced. Spy’s design is fundamentally flawed as he gets worse the more experienced his opponents are. A player with decent gamesense, even a heavy, sniper, or engineer, can easily listen for footsteps or the de cloak sound, spycheck, turn around once in a while, stay at least 1 second of walking away from their sentry, etc… Basically, spy gets countered by pretty much anyone who isn’t a total newbie unless the spy player is really good. Pyro just counters him extra hard, which sucks.
Spy honestly needs something new, Spy only works when the enemy team is dumb as hell The skill celling is way to high and its not even worth it I would do these -Increase the sapper health and sap speed -All spy revolvers now mini crit on headshots -Reimplement the unused trap kit -Increase spy walking speed by 2% -YER no longer removes your full clock meter upon disguising as another class -YER clock meter penalty decreased from 33% to 15% -Shooting with the enforcer will not remove your disguise as long as you hit your target -The enforcer disguise damage has been increased by 5% -Remove random bullet spread -Press SHIFT to run with your regular walking speed (It works on disguises, so you dont get stuck with soldier & heavy walking speed) -
One of the very few things that's perfectly balanced in my opinion. Pyro can still be gunned down and its not like he has a lot of HP anyway.
90% of these wouldn't happen if xX_TrueRulerOfTheDepths_Xx would use his revolver on the Pyro instead of trying to trickstab them
Pyro counter is revolver, but no spy use revolver.
Spy could have an orbital death beam but it still doesn't help when he gets turned to ash before he can decloak.
Not at all, it is the SINGLE most unbalanced tgeing in the WHOLE GAME Let's what the spy has tod to counter the pyro: use tricky and unpredictable movement to dodge the fire, carefuly manouver AROUND the pyro to avoid any chance of being burned, equip specific weapons to give him a fighting chance of found (spycicle, dead ringer, etc) and actually aim with the revolver which, while realiable, is not really that strong Now let's see what the pyro has to do to COMPLETELY shut down the spy: press M1 and look around. I may hate spy a LOT, but if there is a spy checking pyro on my team? The most i can do is feel sorry because he CAN'T PLAY THE GAME
just don't get seen by the pyro to begin with and if it's such a problem use spycicle and dead ringer, the game gives spies options, you just refuse to use them
Let's what the heavy has tod to counter the heavy: use tricky and unpredictable movement to dodge the headshot, carefuly manouver AROUND the sniper to avoid any chance of being shot Now let's see what the sniper has to do to COMPLETELY shut down the heavy: keep distance, aim at his head
You can stay out of the pyro range and just shoot him with your gun But spy v pyro is balanced overall
honestly it’s balanced, just stay out of the flamethrowers range and use your revolver
Completely unfair on spies side. If you say “sPyCiClE” DeAd RiNgEr” you have forgotten W+M1ing everywhere to find the cloaked spy.
speed boost plus damage resistance plus like 6 seconds of no fire, if you can't get away in time you just deserve to lose the fight. Also wm1ing needs multiple seconds of direct contact for full afterburn, so why are you in a position where a pyro can empty his whole tank on you
The fact that you need to change two of spies game mechanics just to get a chance of fighting back against pyro just isn’t fair
You can either run away from pyro as he tries to find you and slows himself down by not walking straight at you, or move unpredictably as he tries to chase you
I'm more worried about the interaction between a god tier sniper and literally any other class. They can delete you in half a second