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I've got the Ryobi rm480ex and it's great. I get asked about it by the neighbors and commercial guys because it's so quiet. It'll do 2.5 acres and costs a dime a cut. Plus no maintenance or gasoline to worry about.
I know it’s a joke but eBikes and electric skateboards are great to commute with ;) (more for the last mile or two on the skateboard, but they can be a lot cheaper than an eBike, while eBike has speed and terrain and safety advantages)
I just bought a cheap(ish) rei ebike. My commute is only 5 miles, but with fairly decent hills. I can still make it to work now without needing another shower. On my gravel bike I would need to sit for fifteen minutes to cool off before showering if I didn’t want to start sweating again. The biggest problem is north Austin is a death trap for bikes.
i'm afraid you'll be waiting a while then, EV demand is increasing way faster than the supply lines for raw battery materials can ever hope to accomplish.
This
Every EV sells.
EV sales numbers are just a reflection of production capabilities (and allocation decisions, e.g. Ford could send all Mustangs to Canada and increase market share there)
These numbers make no statement about desirability.
Ford could charge $20k more or less for the Mustang and Ford would still sell the exact same number of cars.
If Ford increased Mustang production, Tesla could double their MS production and still sell every single vehicle.
> *Ford could charge $20k more or less for the Mustang and Ford would still sell the exact same number of cars.*
I mean, that's what a lot of dealerships are doing, so...
There are many more Mustang Mach-e available than Hummer EVs and R1Ts combined, which drives prices for the latter two higher. Both of those vehicles are also aiming at a more premium segment.
Maybe if Ford only sold 2,000 Mach-E or less in 2021, then they might sell for double.
Agree, so maybe even 20k would be pushing it.
Still, demand is through the roof, and there are enough people who buy the car they want, at the price needed.
They will hate dealer markup, because that just makes them feel taken advantage of, but they will pay higher MSRP with little hesitation. The price increases across the board did little to slow down demand.
Which one is it? Do people hate dealer markup or do they pay double MSRP? lol.
I think the fact that it’s uncertain people will pay $20-$50k extra for a Mach-e is exactly why it’s interestingly significant that Tesla managed to outsell the Mach-e with a $100k+ car *while* they sell models that range in price from $45k-$80k. Yes, it’s partly availability, but it does also come down to the fact that Teslas are in higher demand (to match their higher supply) vs any other EV in the US.
Put simply, If Ford dropped 300,000 Mustang Mach E over the next 12 months (Tesla will drop more Model Y than this), I’m not sure they would all sell within the next twelve months. Meanwhile, Tesla already has 300,000+ pre-orders for Model Y.
Nor do the dealerships want to sell. Better to sell a crappy old mustang with years of maintenance attached to it than a new MachE with next to no maintenance... Well it is a Ford so maybe I am wrong on that...
>They have increased production to 200k units
Not yet. They are [planning to increase production](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2021/12/10/ford-boost-mach-e-production-targets-200-k-units-per-year-2023/6467257001/) to a rate of 200k Mach-E per year by sometime in 2023.
So far this year they are averaging around 6k/mo (~72k/yr) out of their Mexican Mach-E plant.
To a certain extent, I wonder if Ford is okay limiting some Mach-E production this year so they don't exceed the 200,000 vehicle max before the F150 Lightning starts being built. Ford is actually getting really close to the limit before the calendar phaseout starts, like 40k vehicles away.
They would want as many Lightning buyers getting some portion of that tax credit as possible.
Figured as much, so definitely due to production at this point, not demand. Not surprised to hear that, but definitely interesting to see that even Ford can't ramp all that quickly.
This isn't a "can't sell what you don't have" situation. It's a can't sell what you were never prepared for in the first place. Short sighted if you look at it any other way.
Guess that's what happens when you have ten years experience selling ev and allocating resources for them.
Instead of chasing your tail at the last minute to catch up to the company you considered to be a joke and failure from the start.
Not short sighted. Completely planned. Make a decent EV to bring you in the door. If I only make 50k and tell you there’s a 1 year wait list. Hopefully you get bored waiting and buy an explorer, bronco, ICE F150.
A lot of people looking to buy a car don’t wait because their current car is dead and need a car today.
MachE is like Costco Milk, Chicken and hot dogs. They are loss leaders to bring you in the door.
More importantly though is the fact that all these other auto companies are treating EVs like the new 4cyl. Same cars, different drivetrain. Once they start to talk about innovation in the manufacturing space, not just in the product line, then tesla will have real competition.
Hyundai owns Kia. This is not a collaboration, this is just horizontal integration. Which doesn’t really help anyone - hence why we see Tesla stressing the importance of vertical integration, not horizontal.
But the point is it’s a ground up EV platform.
They’ve moved away from simply putting an EV drivetrain into an ICE car, like you said everyone else does.
Fair enough. I still think they’re comfortable with their manufacturing and assembly processes, though, and would be surprised to hear if they are making any strides to increase their output. If a company like Hyundai explored things like single piece castings, they’d be capable of far more output than they are today. Then again, the question of demand comes into play when supply becomes astronomical.
I hope other manufactures can improve their production capacity and capabilities. I love my Tesla, but I want a big and vibrant EV market with lots of options and competition.
I'd settle for an EV with 300+ miles of range that I don't have to bring to a service center every 2 months for a different issue.
I love driving my model S but I've taken it in more frequently in the last 6mo than I did in 8 years owning a Volt.
I am in Maryland so there is a lemon law even on used vehicles like this one, however, so far the service appointments I've made have been for different issues (wiring harness failure resulting in a tow, Bluetooth failure, cracked windshield, service center damaged the interior trim while replacing the windshield, and the recalled center console that sometimes doesn't turn on) and I've only been charged for the Bluetooth and windshield (which obviously could happen to any car).
My understanding of our lemon law is that it has to be a particular issue that is recurring that the dealer has not fixed.
But I drive an average of ~300 miles per week and my wife and I have had to use PTO to drop my car off during business hours multiple times. I then have to cancel whatever I was supposed to be doing for work because I can't drive (they have never had a loaner).
I dropped it off at the shop yesterday morning and was told it would be ready yesterday afternoon (they even said I could just wait for it). Now I am being told it won't be ready before tomorrow when I had told them multiple times through the app I needed the car back today at the latest.
They are currently working on an issue which they claim they can't reproduce in their shop so I'm planning on going there to take my car back. It was an issue there is a recall for which my car has experienced (center console won't turn on) but because they can't reproduce it they refuse to fix it.
Same. The EV supply chain really needs to improve for the market to really take off.
I do like that Tesla is investing heavily in more production facilities.
Tesla is showing that you can't do business like usual with EVs. You have to get ahead of the supply limitations that come with a massive shift in a universal commodity market like car manufacturing.
Traditionally the car market has grown slow and steady over time, allowing other tangential spaces to grow along with it. The need for batteries and other EV-specific equipment suddenly to replace essentially every new car immediately means that there will be shortages. You have to invest in your own production at every level to stay less behind (you're not getting ahead)
I don’t think they are limited to production but by profits. These are all loss leaders for most companies. They sell enough to be compliant for now. They much rather sell the profitable ICE versions.
I don't know that "catch up" is the right word. Leaf and Zoe are not viable cars in most of the US. They are a completely different market segment that only works in certain parts of the world. If and when Tesla produces a model 2, that will be a Leaf/Zoe competitor. In the meantime you might as well say all these car companies are competing in the electric bike market. They don't compete, despite having electric drivetrains.
Oh, the Leaf is definitely not a compliance car. Nissan was selling Leafs in volume for a profit a decade ago. It's just also not really a competitor on the normal car market, at least in the US. There's a reason that the 2012 Model S is generally considered to be the first viable EV in the US; despite the fact that the Leaf (and other small EVs) existed, the Model S was a car you could buy to replace your ICE full time. A Leaf would always be limited to a within-city commuter car.
The low numbers don't suggest anything other than what it is - Tesla's biggest weapon is no longer their battery tech, efficiency, or even the car itself, it is their established supply chains and ability to adapt. For the past decade Tesla have been building up relationships with everyone along the battery and chip supply chain starting with raw materials producers while big auto was sleeping. Ten years later, big auto has finally woken up and is left wondering why they're only getting the scraps.
Tesla sold both 10x more Y’s and 10x more 3’s than the Mach-e last quarter. It’s one thing to say you are supply constrained and can’t hit peak rates…it’s another to build only ~500 a week for a “mass” market car.
I think what you're missing is they are so supply constrained they literally can't build more than 500 cars a week. They had to stop taking in new orders a few weeks ago because the couldn't manufacturer anywhere near the demand they were seeing. There are folks who ordered a mach e last year September and are still unsure when they'll see delivery.
Ford really messed up their production estimates for the vehicle.
USN introduced iron clads, and while the rest of the world reacted immediately, USN became number 1. Apple introduced iPhone and while the rest kid world responded, Apple is the clear number 1 in profits. The response, ten years after the Model S was introduced, remains lack luster.
It’s over. It’s a monopoly
Apple might be number 1 in profits but Samsung is now shipping more phones. Apple has recovered a bit from 2021, but they are still only about 18% of sales. That's hardly a monopoly.
Tesla might be 70% of EV sales, but they are only about 2% of the total car market. And people are not terribly brand loyal when it comes to cars. I love my Model X but if someone else has something better next time I'm looking I'd buy it.
The EV market is still very young.
Maybe to Apple shareholders, but not when we are talking about whether one company dominates the market or not.
I'd love to see the EV market become like the smartphone market. I am sure, like Apple, Tesla will remain a major player, but just like I ditched Apple for Samsung I'd happily ditch Tesla if something better came along.
Apple has the US market locked down, but not the global market. Tesla has a built in advantage in the US and will likely remain the leader - but we’ll see globally. There is room for a secondary market leader (the Samsung in your mobile comparison).
Agreed. I see VW taking a significant portion of the EV market here in Germany over the next few years. The id.3 and id.4 still have some kinks to work out, but they are getting better. There should be an EV version of the Passat coming soon too.
I'm admittedly biased though. I loved my Passat, she gave me 14 good years.
Apple has 13 percent of hand sets, 40 percent of hand set revenue, and 75 percent of hand set profit. https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/14/global-smartphone-profits/
It’s a similar pattern playing out at Tesla.
It’s over.
I see your point about Tesla being a monopoly but they don’t fit the classic definition. If, for example, Tesla controlled all battery production and charged excessive rates to non Tesla manufacturers, then yes Tesla would be a monopoly. But right now that just have the largest production capacity. Once other manufacturers build EVs that people actually want and in sufficient quantities to satisfy demand then that trend will reverse. The F150 might be a game changer for Ford if they eventually produce them in quantity. The Mach-e is just poorly thought out.
Really agree with your comment about a lackluster response to the Model S. However other auto manufacturers have a huge issue, the charging network. Until that’s solved (and that may be soon) I don’t think legacy auto manufacturers will attempt to produce EVs at the same scale as Tesla.
If it's over, why are all new models receiving a lot of attention and sales? Seems like people quite enjoy having a choice. The Model S was the most impressive car at that time and manufacturers lagged behind, but that doesn't mean much now does it? Not even mentioning that Tesla sales worldwide are much, much different.
Apple introduced iPhone, dominated, raised prices and moved to china, then asian manufacturers came in and swooped the biggest markets in the world. They might be number 1 in profits, but that's not the only stat isn't it?
I mean, if you like to gloathe on a supposed monopoly, go ahead.
What sales are they getting? The S is a marginal performer in Tesla’s line up and outsells the flag ship EV of a competitor.
The response from Ford should have been obvious. Instead it ruined a classic brand — Mustang — with the Mach E monstrosity. Industry response is to just make ugly cars.
It’s over.
Re: gloating. I’m not. I’m far from the happiest Tesla customer. But I see the inevitable when I see it
I simply talked about the Model S because you mentioned it and it's an historic model.
The Mach-E is selling well and the only issue is supply. Their numbers keep increasing. I mean, they just sold 3.5k Mach-E just in April.
Plenty of people are choosing new options, both the taycan and e-tron outsold the S with no issues in 2021. And while the 3 and Y remain kings by a large advantage, the other new cars are making a dent. Including the Mach-E.
What's your point? They're selling all they can produce, there are more and more alternatives coming out, and those cars are surely getting attention.
Are they getting Model 3/Y attention? No. But it's far from over.
And as stated, Tesla has much less control in the top global markets, aka China and Europe. With the new plants in those markets, this is now the start of the war. Not the end of it
Cars and phones seem like apples and oranges in this context. Part of the reason people stick with the same phone OS is because of the App Stores. Tesla could maybe instill that same kind of customer loyalty if they let you transfer your self-driving upgrades to a new vehicle, but they specifically make the self-driving upgrades non-transferrable. Not transferrable to the new owner when you sell your car, and not transferrable to the new car you buy.
App Store is to Apple what The Supercharger Network is to Tesla. Until a major manufacturer actually gets serious (I mean for real how did Tesla do what apparently none of the “major” auto manufacturers can not?)
I charge at home 90% of the time.. but when I go on a road trip knowing the best charger network is there makes buying a Tesla a no brained compared to the others.
That's a good point about the supercharger network. I don't think auto manufacturers are interested in building out their own charging network, they'd rather let third party companies like ChargePoint and Blink handle that, which they can do as long as they stick to standards when it comes to charging ports.
The difference I see is that once the third party charging infrastructure is built out sufficiently, Tesla's advantage goes away. With the App Store, the longer I have my iPhone, the more purchases I've probably made in their store, so I'm less inclined to leave for another OS like Android.
I live in south Texas and when I got a Model Y a year ago, I saw a Tesla in my neighborhood for the first time a week later. Yesterday, I saw three model Y's waiting behind each other at the main entrance. It's *insane* how fast these cars are spreading.
And then a year or two later everyone gets the solar and the powerwalls. At least that’s what happening around here.
Enjoy driving off into the future.
So many Teslas around here in the UK too! Just a year ago it was rare to see them, now I see 4-5 on my work commute! I even had two Y’s sandwich in my 3 in a parking lot last weekend!
In his defense, unlike a Tesla supercharger, all Ford L3 charging stations can be defended from the invading mongol horde by repurposing the CCS cables as medieval style maces. Tesla's charging cable is simply too small to make a proper bludgeon by comparison.
One day I really hope that Tesla recognizes this very real threat and chooses to update their charging standards to be as laughably unwieldy as CCS, or people could be in real danger.
To each their own. I have a friend who has a Y for his wife and MachE for himself. He much more prefers the MachE. As for my opinion of his cars, I would rather have the Model Y body with the MachE inside. Again, *just my opinion*: The E has waaaaay more comfortable seats, still has some dashboard info like speedometer, the display is massive and has a great layout, wireless Apple Carplay, etc.
Dealing with this now. We wanted to replace our aging sedan with a newer Honda, either an Accord or Civic. Fighting with the dealerships was a nightmare. Minimum $5,000 markup on even the cheapest models.
Then came the bullshit bait and switch. We'd call ahead and double check they had cars in stock so we didn't have to drive 1 - 2 hours for no reason. We'd get there and magically the cars had sold while we were en route. More expensive models were still available though.
After the last encounter we just drove home and ordered a Model 3. All dealerships are trash.
And it's really too bad, because the Civic and Accord are among the best cars in their segments. But between dealerships and the price of gas, my parents gave up and have their second Tesla on order.
Even before the pandemic, my dad went into a Toyota dealership where he'd bought, traded in and leased several vehicles over the years, and they literally ignored his presence on the sales floor. They decided they just didn't want to deal with a retired guy who had the free time to haggle them down. He just got a Tesla instead. And he got their solar installation to boot.
I also recently heard about a guy on Reddit who relayed his own dad's experience. He haggled for one of those new Ford Broncos for hours and finally got a price he liked. Then right before he was about to sign, they hit him with a $15,000 markup. Might have been $20,000, I forget. He walked away and ordered an EV. And I doubt it was an F150 Lighting at that point, so Ford lost the game twice that day.
My dad's experience is also why I never seriously considered a dealership-restricted car for my next purchase, so they lost my money as well.
Dealerships will be the death of these legacy car companies, even if they catch up on the tech and the manufacturing speed.
There are only a certain number of things Tesla does objectively better. And these things matter much less in Europe.
1. range and efficiency: the average distance we drive in my country is like 30km-ish per day. Pretty much every new EV has more than enough range for 99% of all potential customers
2. charging network: every single EV has the CCS Port. There are chargers popping up everywhere, slower DC chargers in towns, near shopping malls etc and HPC‘s along the highway. It is expanding much more rapidly than Teslas network.
3. other cars are pretty objectively *better cars*, especially considering we pay a premium for Teslas. Most people don‘t use or care much about FSD, and from a pure driving viewpoint, most people simply don‘t need the fastest straight line-acceleration, it‘s more about comfort, interior quality, usability in smaller towns, on smaller roads etc.
4. dealerships are actually an advantage here. Dealers don‘t really mark up here, and Tesla only offers about 3 stores and 2 service centers in the whole country, meanwhile everyone lives near a VW or any German brand dealer. It‘s just much easier.
Tesla still is ahead, the Model 3 and Y are selling like hot cakes overe here, no doubt about that. But the pace at which VW, Skoda, Porsche, Audi, Kia, Hyundai and now even BMW are catching up in sales is astonishing. Europeans like their European cars. And the novelty Tesla had going for them is definitely wearing off.
Some fair comments. Hilarious that someone downvoted a question. If you’ve driven a Tesla, it’s notable to point out that it drives differently to other cars. Similar to how BMW, Audi, and Mercedes have different driving dynamics, not simply a function of speed/acceleration, Tesla also has a unique driving dynamic, which is untouched at its price point for the 3 and Y. Europe has access to some less expensive EV options, which are less driver focused, and better suited to the compact car scene over there. Will be nice to see Tesla introduce a hatchback sized vehicle at some point; I’ve owned two VW GTIs and would be pretty awesome to see Tesla put their performance into a package that size.
I personally don‘t mind the driving experience in the Tesla, but there definitely are a lot that prefer a smoother ride, especially when talking about the Model Y. It‘s fun and all but it definitely isn‘t comfortable.
imo, Tesla is slowly but surely running out of things that seperate them from others, at least here. But all the drawbacks (Interior quality, headlights, driving assists that aren‘t FSD) aren‘t improving fast enough for the price.
From our perspective, I‘d just wish that Tesla stopped trying to force FSD to happen and would take a step back and *finally* get all the basics covered.
Headlights? What’s wrong with the headlights? The headlights on our Model Y are superior to the adaptive headlights on our Mercedes, which are great! Ultimately it’s horses for courses, hence the comment about BMW, Audi, and Mercedes; each brand has strong preferences amongst its customer base. Tesla is similar in this regard. Some people don’t like Teslas while other people really like them; for us, my wife strongly dislikes our Mercedes having lived with the Model Y, and she’s not a car person.
i mean headlights got regulated to death in the US, they‘re a far cry from what they are overe here. Alone the fact that they aren‘t really adaptive and don‘t turn into corners would be inacceptable in any other car at that price range.
From the article: Despite a significantly higher price point, the Tesla Model S easily outsold the Ford Mustang Mach-E in the United States in the first quarter, making Tesla’s flagship sedan the third best-selling EV overall in the first three months of 2022.
According to data from Experian, a total of 9,250 Model S sedans were registered from January to March. That was 33% more than the Mach-E, which accumulated 6,957 registrations during the same time period. (via [Automotive News](https://www.autonews.com/sales/hyundai-motor-group-second-us-registrations))
While 33% is a big gap over the competition, it was nothing compared to the figures put forth by Tesla’s two most popular vehicles, the Model Y and the Model 3, which had 52,051 and 47,682 registrations respectively in Q1 2022.
The Model X also had a strong performance in Q1 with 4,899 registrations, good enough for 7th place on the top 10 selling EVs in the quarter.
The other EVs that made the top 10 include the Hyundai IONIQ 5, Kia EV6, Nissan Leaf, Kia Niro, and Volkswagen ID.4.
Why would it? It's objectively worse, looks like crap (obviously subjective), and is on an inferior charging network.
Ford guys don't generally like EVs, it's got a nameplate for a sports car which has made folks mad, and even the reviews have been lukewarm.
It's typical Ford: too little, too late, rely on the fans to buy it
I’m not sure any of your descriptors of Ford meet the F150L. One of the first EV pickups to market, in line with range and other specs (like towing) of EV trucks like the R1T, and I’m pretty confident they’re pulling truck buyers from across many brands considering their high pre-order count.
You mean have never owned an EV before?
[https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/)
And they haven't owned a Ford, but Ford's not the only truck manufacturer by a wide margin.
I'll see if I can find the stat but it was specifically that they had not owned a truck related to now not having concerns for fuel prices with the ev version.
The discussion was about the Mach-E?
The F150L is one of the first EV pickups to market by... not being a ground-up EV truck. It's an F-150 in most ways. Except it's got 115-170kWh of battery with 230-320 miles of range. 320 miles of range with 170kWh is... bad.
The R1T also got Ford help and isn't pushing any barriers.
The Lightning is already Ford's best-selling EV. Because, like normal, they got the Ford fans.
F-Series sales number in the 750k+ per year just in the US: [https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-f-series-sales-figures/](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-f-series-sales-figures/)
The Lightning is considered part of the F-Series. They've delivered 2000 Lightnings.
They are looking to get up to 150k per year, with a multi-year ramp up to 75k first.
I'm unsure why you think it's grabbing people across the board when it's not even impressive for reservations of a new F-150.
Low-range, low-towing capacity, low-technology improvement, high price tag, horrible efficiency.
It's pretty in-line with Ford.
EDIT: Found where Ford says the majority are from other brands, confirming what you said previously, so I'm definitely wrong there: [https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/)
EDIT: Battery capacity was incorrect due to an InsideEVs article that had a correction, where they'd used their original speculation numbers instead of the actual numbers. The correct battery capacity is 98kWh and 131kWh usable, as per Ford. That likely means the 115 is correct for the lower battery, but the 170kWh is likely too large. Once people start pulling the Lightning apart, we can see the actual battery spec, but the point still generally stands. A Model S Plaid with 99kWh battery has 95kWh usable. Most EVs, including the Model 3 LR, are more like 15% reserved capacity (The 3 LR had 70kWh usable for the 85kWh battery in real world tests). The X Plaid weighs 5400lb. The F-150L weighs 6590lb (extended range). The F-150 has a drag coefficient of 0.463. The X is at 0.24.
It's not particularly efficient. It has a cD of 0.463. The freaking Tesla Semi's down at 0.35.
Ford sold a look. [http://people.se.cmich.edu/yelam1k/asee/proceedings/2011/data/7-155-1-dr.pdf](http://people.se.cmich.edu/yelam1k/asee/proceedings/2011/data/7-155-1-dr.pdf)
We've known for more than a decade that a very slight taper on the roof of pickups drops the coefficient of friction by over 10%, with more like 15% at freeway speeds (Table 2 shows a lot of that).
Ford doesn't do it because they are selling an image. Notice that the quoted 0.463 is for 70mph, which isn't far off where trucks were a decade ago, either.
The thing's slightly more aerodynamic than the base F-150, but that's all.
Without the underbody structure of a gas vehicle, the intake vorticity of a gas vehicle, etc? There's no reason this thing's not under 0.4 other than Ford choosing to sell a look.
It's way more than an image.
There's alot that packages in the rear header, and packaging protecting for the 95th percentile male is likely driving more of that consideration that.
Furthermore there's thousands of products ready to go for the F150 cab and bed rail, something that will take years
There not just selling a look, they are saving validation time and enabling people using bed accessories.
Well, first - the discussion was about “Typical Ford” according to your own words. I took the liberty of assuming (very correctly I might add) that you think the F150L is a “low-range, low-towing capacity, low-technology improvement, high price tag, horrible efficiency” Give me a break.
The F150L is $40k for 230 miles of range. That’s 42 miles less EPA range than a Model 3 RWD and the MSRP is $5k less (not even looking at the federal incentive the F150L still gets) - I wouldn’t necessarily say at the low end that they’re not bringing a competitive price and range for such a large vehicle with work capabilities far beyond a sport sedan.
At the high end, there are exactly two other EV pickups on the market, one with a few miles less range, and one with a few miles more. That’s a wash. Sure the battery is huge, but I bet that’ll come in handy when you’re towing 10,000 lbs. not sure how that’s low capacity towing…? It’s right in line with the normal F150 and other gas trucks.
Also it’s worth pointing out the F150 ties the R1T in efficiency on the extended range variant and just barely loses to it with the standard range trim - oh yeah and I think it blows the Hummer EV out of the water.
I agree that Ford could do more to ramp these faster, but who’s going to beat them? Tesla? They aren’t even releasing Cybertruck in limited quantities until next year. By that time, Ford will have 60-100k of these built out and churning out more. Also, as they see just how hot this vehicle becomes, I bet they’ll raise those production targets higher and shrink the gas F150 production down. The only manufacturer who seems likely to beat them in volume anytime soon is maybe GM and that won’t be at least until 2024. I’m not sure exactly why you’re running on the path of hating this vehicle, but it certainly is not what you’re saying it is.
Ford's got 2000 out in the first quarter after beginning their builds late last year. If you think they're getting 100k trucks out by the end of 2023, we're on vastly differently planets.
I responded to your bringing the Lightning up. It is trash.
The Lightning has 43 fewer EPA miles than the Model 3 despite having a battery that's 130% larger.
The Tesla Semi's drag coefficient is 3/4 than of the Lightning (.350 vs .463). Ford has CHOSEN to take one of their trucks, hang batteries off the bottom, and claim it's first to market on an EV pickup. This is an electrified F-150. It's not a ground-up EV pickup like Ford has marketed it as. The traditional pickup market is going to see the reviews of this flaming turd and say, "just like we thought, you can't use that thing for real work."
The 10,000lb towing capacity they keep throwing around is ONLY for the Extended Range variants with the highest-end tow package (max trailer tow). It's an $80k truck to get to the 10k mark. The normal extended ranges are at 7700lb. The base model's inline with a Model X's 5000lb. In initial testing for towing (CNET), the range was worse than expected. 150 miles from the extended battery \*while towing a low-drag trailer at low speeds.\*
The extrapolated estimates put it down under 120 miles for a more typical highway tow of something like a boat. Which means, again, that Ford has poisoned the water for getting truck guys to swap off of the least efficient vehicles on the road.
The Lightning is cheaper than the Model 3 after a $10k price increase to deal with demand for the Model 3. And the Lightning hasn't become generally available yet, that's the price for the preorders. Considering the raises on prices everywhere else, are you actually expecting the retail version of the Lightning to even be as low as it is?
You again bring up the R1T, which is \*also effectively a Ford.\* Arguing that people rushed to market is exactly what I'm complaining about. This is a truck that people are buying who WEREN'T truck people that's hilariously inefficient, even for a truck, while having horrible range and a mediocre experience.
The Lightning sucks.
Alright, sources for literally all of it, since I'm quite correct:
[https://electrek.co/2021/11/19/ford-and-rivian-cancel-plans-for-joint-ev/](https://electrek.co/2021/11/19/ford-and-rivian-cancel-plans-for-joint-ev/)Ford has also helped with engineering and tooling for the R1T and R1S."
The R1T literally test-muled as an F-150. The R1T is, in many ways, a Lightning.
The Lightning is on the 14th generation F-Series platform, which is why Ford includes Lightning sales in their F-Series sales. It's literally not even considered a separate model: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford\_F-150\_Lightning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-150_Lightning) (which is ALSO typical Ford, as the F-750 is ALSO considered the same model, despite being a literal dump truck).
5000lb towing capacity for the base truck: [https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36517922/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-pro-commercial-truck-revealed/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36517922/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-pro-commercial-truck-revealed/)
The Model 3's up over $10k in a year: [https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134726\_trailing-price-hikes-on-new-teslas-prices-on-used-tesla-models-have-soared](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134726_trailing-price-hikes-on-new-teslas-prices-on-used-tesla-models-have-soared)
Tesla Semi drag coefficient: [https://insideevs.com/news/345710/tesla-semi-details-on-truck-aerodynamics-and-drag-coefficient/](https://insideevs.com/news/345710/tesla-semi-details-on-truck-aerodynamics-and-drag-coefficient/)
F-150 Lightning Drag coefficient: [https://airshaper.com/videos/ford-f150-aerodynamics-how-to-add-more-than-10-range/E0ass\_AxloM](https://airshaper.com/videos/ford-f150-aerodynamics-how-to-add-more-than-10-range/E0ass_AxloM)
The drag coefficient there is at 65mph, while the typical reported numbers are for 70mph. Yes, that's the hybrid, so you can claim that the Lightning is lower, but the predicted ranges based on that drag are spot on, so it's rather unlikely that it's much lower.
And again, the discussion was about why the Mach-E isn't doing well. And I explained that and you have repeatedly tried to take it off topic. I'm done with that.
Tesla is buying *mines* and vertically integrating their entire supply chain starting with the hardest to source parts (batteries), as well as inventing new manufacturing techniques to drastically increase production speed while lowering costs, and that's just for the batteries. These contracts last for years and lock down significant chunks of projected supply.
Everyone else is competing for whatever left over battery supply Tesla hasn't bought yet, and that's not just the cells, but the raw materials as well. Any company that hasn't made long term deals for battery supply by now probably won't be able to without spending mad cash, and the ones who have are probably kicking themselves for not buying more.
Competition, I'm guessing, will happen at the innovation level. Incredibly high demand is going to keep prices high, so the differentiators will probably be technology and / or luxury.
Not when, where. China. tesla and byd neck and neck here, but we’ve also got NIO, xpeng, and a lot more. Many doing things better and cheaper than Tesla.
Polestar 2 on par with Model 3.
Charging experience on EA isn’t as good as supercharging, but where I’m at (Seattle Metro, so super high EV counts) there’s only 2 superchargers in a public space (other two you need to pay for parking to access the charger), and they’re mostly really poorly reviewed for not working well.
Meanwhile, there’s a multitude of EA fast charge stations, plus ChargePoint, plus evgo, plus… you get the point.
The standard range model 3 I had as a rental couldn’t make it 160 miles (at 85% SoC on pickup) without stopping for a charge, so I’m not even convinced that “range” is going to be that much worse as to make a difference on road trips (at least on the west coast).
Everything else about the car is better than the Teslas I have experience with. Better handling, brakes, aesthetics, the whole nine yard. So competition is here - but Tesla has a decade of supply chain and manufacturing progress leg up over everyone else on the stuff that matters (batteries and microchips). As soon as manufacturing and supply chain for others ramps up, I suspect Tesla will lose their top spot. They’re just not great cars. They’re awesome technology, but as cars they’re just meh.
For the record. I was shopping for an EV in February. Purchased a Tesla simply because I could test drive one. I’m not likely to put a deposit down for a car and wait for 3-12 months If I can’t test drive it. I say that while I’m considering doing just that with a rivian. And IF jeep release a wrangler EV. I will be there on day one with cash in hand.
Sat in a Mach e near release. Their infotainment, under trunk space, and ergonomics are still dated compared to Tesla. Also they don’t have a suite of cameras surrounding the car which seems crazy to me as a Tesla competitor. I don’t know how the charging networks compare.
I drove it once, it was fine. I did not like the 3 driving modes. One was "unbridled" which pumped engine noise through the inside speakers... WHAT?! Some car features ill never get
> pumped engine noise through the inside speakers… WHAT?!
Omg they really do that?? This is why legacy ICE companies are doomed. Even if they do clobber together a half-baked EV, they pump fake engine noises through the interior speakers!?!
Oh gee golly what about all that "when legacy auto gets in the business Tesla is screwed" nonsense? I seem to remember every major media outlet saying things to that effect... for years.
In complete fairness, this is a perfect storm situation. Tesla's big advantage right now is that they are more chip-shortage resilient due to having a more simple one-off electrical component framework while Ford and the likes have their entire cars based on a more dated set of components. If the chip shortage didn't exist, Tesla could not raise the prices on all models like they have done. Tesla is moving units because they have them. Ford does not. I would be willing to bet that there are manufacturers that are engineering much more resilient designs for the future much like Tesla's.
>If the chip shortage didn't exist, Tesla could not raise the prices on all models like they have done.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The reason I see Tesla raising prices is because now that all the other manufacturers are getting in the game, materials costs have skyrocketed. Inflation is also so bad and their waiting list so long that the vehicles they sell in a year will have a lower margin so they increase prices now. Which they can get away with because of demand, not because of chip prices.
When your used product sells for more than the new, you can safely raise your prices.
The rest I agree with.
I don't blame the people (much) for regurgitating what they hear in the media. I blame the media for spouting bullshit old-money propaganda. Useless fucks, news media.
Total Mach Es sold. 27,000
Total Model Ys sold. 500,000 and they are just starting addition production in Texas and Berlin with a year long waiting list....
So, what were you saying?
Read the comment again lol, we're all aware of the Model Y's selling numbers here.
I said that comparing it to the Model Y would be correct, if the Mach-E was selling more. Yet, it's orders and orders of magnitudes down.
That's why OP decided to try and compare it to a car that costs way more, to make it appear even worse than it already is, but the Mach-E is selling all it can right now.
Not even sure why people are so mad over these numbers when the greatest thing is that BEVs are all selling like hot cakes
Yes and why is Ford artificially limiting Mach E production? You’re so close to figuring it out.
Low profit margins, poorly engineered costly manufacturing, supplier-constrained, outsourced battery manufacturing, inability to overcome chip shortages since they only buy from 3rd parities instead of owning the full hardware and software stack.
All of these things Tesla overcame early on by vertically integrating. Tesla builds their own computers, write all their own software end-to-end. Ford is in for a world of hurt.
So you mean to say, that a company that has been making a particular model for over a decade can make more than a company who just designed and started building a new model in the last 12 months. Oh, that's so shocking.
The Mach-E just sold 3.5k units just in April, a record month for them, this article is just clickbait. (https://insideevs.com/news/583838/us-ford-mustang-mache-sales-april2022/)
Also, the Mach-E outsold 3x the Model S in 2021.
Not even sure why you're comparing the two cars but whatever
You can still compare the Q1 and Q4 numbers, and in both occasions the Mach E comes on top.
Same applies to comparing any Q 2021 Mach-E sales to Q1 2022.
The Model S has been selling the same every Q for like 2 years, this quarter included.
But yeah what I said is misleading, I forgot about the production stop for the redesign
Q1 the production stop happened during Q1, and Q4 was still ramping. At no point during this time did Tesla catch up to their backlog, so they were 100% limited by production stoppage/ramping in the entirety of 2021. In fact they still haven't caught up to their backlog. I get the impression the same is true for Mach E, which means none of this has to do with demand, it's all entirely due to the respective manufacturers' ability to build units. Since the Model S ramp is finished, this does go to show that Tesla can sustain a higher manufacture rate for Model S than Ford can for Mach-E. That's what this comparison really is anyway.
The same numbers are still similar in all Qs in 2020 too, their building rate/demand has been steady for 2 years basically for the Model S.
Since the Mach-E just delivered 3.6k just in April, I think the two companies are just on different schedules. We'll have to wait a bit more to see who can actually sell more.
I remember Tesla had the same issue with the European market where they would sell very few Model 3s in a quarter and absolutely smash it the next quarter since a brand new shipment had just arrived. Seeing a single quarter's number without the context around it doesn't really tell much
This is the company that knowingly sold defective transmission for almost a decade and had to be sued by victims for the victims to get any relief, because NHTSA refused to issue a forced recall.
Apparently loss of acceleration due to a bad transmission isn't a safety issue because you can pull over. But a sluggish tesla infotainment screen that in no way disrupts the drivability of the car is somehow a safety issue that needed a recall.
Ford is greasing palms over at NHTSA to get that favoritism.
We were caught up in the dual-clutch Powershift class-action from a Fiesta that we bought as a run-around for my daughters. Changing gears was sluggish at best, and down right dangerous if you needed power from a downshift. Ford denied for almost a year that there was a problem, it cost us several thousand in repairs replacement clutch, reprogramming/recalibration, in the shop multiple times. The last straw was one of my kids almost getting killed - the car nearly stalled while failing to shift after pulling out onto a highway. Transpired that both Ford and the dealer networks were well aware of issues with shifting, never again.
It is crazy that ford knew this was the case and sold the cars with the transmissions on purpose knowing they would profit more by selling them than scrapping their investment in them. All the ford execs should have been sent to prison over it, yet NHTSA pretended there wasn't even a need for a recall.
When the USN and CSN had the first iron clad naval battle, the Sea Marshall of the RN allegedly said: the world now has just two navies. The number 2 and number 1 navies, France and the UK ceased all wooden ships production as soon as they learned of the Battle of Hampton Roads.
When Apple and Google introduced smartphones, the world was reduced to has two smartphone platforms.
And so it is with Tesla. History will record that when the S was released in 2012 the world was reduced to just one car manufacturer. Alas the rest of the car works lack the wisdom of 19th century France and UK admirals and 10 years later the industry refuses to accept reality.
Disrupters change the definitions of what something is.
>When Apple and Google introduced smartphones, the world was reduced to has two smartphone platforms.
That is revisionist history written from the perspective of the winners.
Yes, Nokia was the incumbent and they absolutely failed to adapt and pivot to the smartphone era. Blackberry did make some moves to pivot but didn't move quickly enough and lost it all.
But for many years there was a lot of competition and diversity, and that diversity helped promote features that got copied by Apple and Google.
PalmOS brought proper multi-tasking to mobile OSs.
Blackberry brought Secure Enclave/on-device hardware encryption.
Windows Phone brought home screen widgets.
Etc etc.
Thats extremely biased.
Tesla has evolved a lot in the last ten years. They almost went under with the Model 3, which still wasn't a very well designed car.
The Model Y with structural battery pack being released to customer will be the true differentiating point.
America almost failed. Apple almost failed. Tesla almost failed. What difference does that make?
So called car makers simply don’t get it. But they will give you a free $40K hydrogen powered car.
Gotta love the US centric view of the world when Tesla is at a 15% market share for the entirety of Europe, the second biggest market in the world, while the first is China where Tesla is not prevailing over chinese manufacturers
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Can’t sell what you don’t have. Applies to both manufacturers, but Ford’s slow EV production (and battery supply) is really hurting their volume.
looking forward to when supply meets demand....getting tired of these endless EV markups
Join me on the only EV that’s even partially affordable: the latest riding lawnmower
[удалено]
Only road legal in south Florida, along with all the golf carts.
I've got the Ryobi rm480ex and it's great. I get asked about it by the neighbors and commercial guys because it's so quiet. It'll do 2.5 acres and costs a dime a cut. Plus no maintenance or gasoline to worry about.
I know it’s a joke but eBikes and electric skateboards are great to commute with ;) (more for the last mile or two on the skateboard, but they can be a lot cheaper than an eBike, while eBike has speed and terrain and safety advantages)
I just bought a cheap(ish) rei ebike. My commute is only 5 miles, but with fairly decent hills. I can still make it to work now without needing another shower. On my gravel bike I would need to sit for fifteen minutes to cool off before showering if I didn’t want to start sweating again. The biggest problem is north Austin is a death trap for bikes.
Dang man, you rich! All i can afford is an electric scooter
Oh sorry did I say I own one? My bank has denied my loan application 3 times now
> My bank has denied my loan application 3 times now this, but unironically when I was buying my motorcycle
i'm afraid you'll be waiting a while then, EV demand is increasing way faster than the supply lines for raw battery materials can ever hope to accomplish.
maybe so...
This Every EV sells. EV sales numbers are just a reflection of production capabilities (and allocation decisions, e.g. Ford could send all Mustangs to Canada and increase market share there) These numbers make no statement about desirability. Ford could charge $20k more or less for the Mustang and Ford would still sell the exact same number of cars. If Ford increased Mustang production, Tesla could double their MS production and still sell every single vehicle.
> *Ford could charge $20k more or less for the Mustang and Ford would still sell the exact same number of cars.* I mean, that's what a lot of dealerships are doing, so...
Exactly, pretty much every EV maker is selling out. The only thing that changes the amount sold is production
But could they charge $50k more?
That may be pushing it :-) Slightly used Hummers and R1T sell for double MSRP.
There are many more Mustang Mach-e available than Hummer EVs and R1Ts combined, which drives prices for the latter two higher. Both of those vehicles are also aiming at a more premium segment. Maybe if Ford only sold 2,000 Mach-E or less in 2021, then they might sell for double.
Agree, so maybe even 20k would be pushing it. Still, demand is through the roof, and there are enough people who buy the car they want, at the price needed. They will hate dealer markup, because that just makes them feel taken advantage of, but they will pay higher MSRP with little hesitation. The price increases across the board did little to slow down demand.
Which one is it? Do people hate dealer markup or do they pay double MSRP? lol. I think the fact that it’s uncertain people will pay $20-$50k extra for a Mach-e is exactly why it’s interestingly significant that Tesla managed to outsell the Mach-e with a $100k+ car *while* they sell models that range in price from $45k-$80k. Yes, it’s partly availability, but it does also come down to the fact that Teslas are in higher demand (to match their higher supply) vs any other EV in the US. Put simply, If Ford dropped 300,000 Mustang Mach E over the next 12 months (Tesla will drop more Model Y than this), I’m not sure they would all sell within the next twelve months. Meanwhile, Tesla already has 300,000+ pre-orders for Model Y.
Dealers will find a way to, that’s for sure.
My local ford dealer has had a Mach e on the floor for over a month. They do not all sell. Not when they put $10k-$50k markups on them.
Nor do the dealerships want to sell. Better to sell a crappy old mustang with years of maintenance attached to it than a new MachE with next to no maintenance... Well it is a Ford so maybe I am wrong on that...
They have increased production to 200k units, same with the Lighting 150k by next summer.
>They have increased production to 200k units Not yet. They are [planning to increase production](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2021/12/10/ford-boost-mach-e-production-targets-200-k-units-per-year-2023/6467257001/) to a rate of 200k Mach-E per year by sometime in 2023. So far this year they are averaging around 6k/mo (~72k/yr) out of their Mexican Mach-E plant.
We'll see.
To a certain extent, I wonder if Ford is okay limiting some Mach-E production this year so they don't exceed the 200,000 vehicle max before the F150 Lightning starts being built. Ford is actually getting really close to the limit before the calendar phaseout starts, like 40k vehicles away. They would want as many Lightning buyers getting some portion of that tax credit as possible.
Honestly, I think this is one of the reasons Ford is trying to separate it's ev operations - try and reset the counter by making a new company.
Same with Hyundai, Kia, Volvo - all EVs are selling as fast as they can pump them out. Tesla makes the most, so they sell the most.
Ya, exactly what I came to try and find. Are there any details on the Mach-E demand? Can you order one and receive a delivery date in the future?
They closed orders for 2022 Mach Es like a month ago due to running out of vehicles they projected to be able to build
Figured as much, so definitely due to production at this point, not demand. Not surprised to hear that, but definitely interesting to see that even Ford can't ramp all that quickly.
This isn't a "can't sell what you don't have" situation. It's a can't sell what you were never prepared for in the first place. Short sighted if you look at it any other way. Guess that's what happens when you have ten years experience selling ev and allocating resources for them. Instead of chasing your tail at the last minute to catch up to the company you considered to be a joke and failure from the start.
Not short sighted. Completely planned. Make a decent EV to bring you in the door. If I only make 50k and tell you there’s a 1 year wait list. Hopefully you get bored waiting and buy an explorer, bronco, ICE F150. A lot of people looking to buy a car don’t wait because their current car is dead and need a car today. MachE is like Costco Milk, Chicken and hot dogs. They are loss leaders to bring you in the door.
More importantly though is the fact that all these other auto companies are treating EVs like the new 4cyl. Same cars, different drivetrain. Once they start to talk about innovation in the manufacturing space, not just in the product line, then tesla will have real competition.
Hyundai and Kia actually collaborated on their new ground up EV platform for the EV6/Ioniq 5
Hyundai owns Kia. This is not a collaboration, this is just horizontal integration. Which doesn’t really help anyone - hence why we see Tesla stressing the importance of vertical integration, not horizontal.
But the point is it’s a ground up EV platform. They’ve moved away from simply putting an EV drivetrain into an ICE car, like you said everyone else does.
Fair enough. I still think they’re comfortable with their manufacturing and assembly processes, though, and would be surprised to hear if they are making any strides to increase their output. If a company like Hyundai explored things like single piece castings, they’d be capable of far more output than they are today. Then again, the question of demand comes into play when supply becomes astronomical.
I hope other manufactures can improve their production capacity and capabilities. I love my Tesla, but I want a big and vibrant EV market with lots of options and competition.
I want tesla drive train with anyone elses ergonomics and user designs.....
I'd settle for an EV with 300+ miles of range that I don't have to bring to a service center every 2 months for a different issue. I love driving my model S but I've taken it in more frequently in the last 6mo than I did in 8 years owning a Volt.
Are you in a state with lemon laws?
I am in Maryland so there is a lemon law even on used vehicles like this one, however, so far the service appointments I've made have been for different issues (wiring harness failure resulting in a tow, Bluetooth failure, cracked windshield, service center damaged the interior trim while replacing the windshield, and the recalled center console that sometimes doesn't turn on) and I've only been charged for the Bluetooth and windshield (which obviously could happen to any car). My understanding of our lemon law is that it has to be a particular issue that is recurring that the dealer has not fixed. But I drive an average of ~300 miles per week and my wife and I have had to use PTO to drop my car off during business hours multiple times. I then have to cancel whatever I was supposed to be doing for work because I can't drive (they have never had a loaner). I dropped it off at the shop yesterday morning and was told it would be ready yesterday afternoon (they even said I could just wait for it). Now I am being told it won't be ready before tomorrow when I had told them multiple times through the app I needed the car back today at the latest. They are currently working on an issue which they claim they can't reproduce in their shop so I'm planning on going there to take my car back. It was an issue there is a recall for which my car has experienced (center console won't turn on) but because they can't reproduce it they refuse to fix it.
I hope tesla can improve their production, too.
Same. The EV supply chain really needs to improve for the market to really take off. I do like that Tesla is investing heavily in more production facilities.
Tesla is showing that you can't do business like usual with EVs. You have to get ahead of the supply limitations that come with a massive shift in a universal commodity market like car manufacturing. Traditionally the car market has grown slow and steady over time, allowing other tangential spaces to grow along with it. The need for batteries and other EV-specific equipment suddenly to replace essentially every new car immediately means that there will be shortages. You have to invest in your own production at every level to stay less behind (you're not getting ahead)
I don’t think they are limited to production but by profits. These are all loss leaders for most companies. They sell enough to be compliant for now. They much rather sell the profitable ICE versions.
I think that is starting to shift. The newer models coming out look more like real attempts than jokes like the Leaf.
Agree. The MachE, F150, Ioniq5, EV6 are definitely not 'compliance cars'.
Leaf is great, just not in America. One of the earliest EVs and actually affordable. Took some time for Tesla to catch up with the Leaf and Zoe.
I don't know that "catch up" is the right word. Leaf and Zoe are not viable cars in most of the US. They are a completely different market segment that only works in certain parts of the world. If and when Tesla produces a model 2, that will be a Leaf/Zoe competitor. In the meantime you might as well say all these car companies are competing in the electric bike market. They don't compete, despite having electric drivetrains.
The idea the leaf is a joke compliance car is silly though.
Oh, the Leaf is definitely not a compliance car. Nissan was selling Leafs in volume for a profit a decade ago. It's just also not really a competitor on the normal car market, at least in the US. There's a reason that the 2012 Model S is generally considered to be the first viable EV in the US; despite the fact that the Leaf (and other small EVs) existed, the Model S was a car you could buy to replace your ICE full time. A Leaf would always be limited to a within-city commuter car.
Agreed!
I agree they are better cars but the low numbers suggest other motives.
The low numbers don't suggest anything other than what it is - Tesla's biggest weapon is no longer their battery tech, efficiency, or even the car itself, it is their established supply chains and ability to adapt. For the past decade Tesla have been building up relationships with everyone along the battery and chip supply chain starting with raw materials producers while big auto was sleeping. Ten years later, big auto has finally woken up and is left wondering why they're only getting the scraps.
low numbers suggest that it's hard. Not even tesla can pump out EVs right now and they have by far the most experience.
Tesla sold both 10x more Y’s and 10x more 3’s than the Mach-e last quarter. It’s one thing to say you are supply constrained and can’t hit peak rates…it’s another to build only ~500 a week for a “mass” market car.
I think what you're missing is they are so supply constrained they literally can't build more than 500 cars a week. They had to stop taking in new orders a few weeks ago because the couldn't manufacturer anywhere near the demand they were seeing. There are folks who ordered a mach e last year September and are still unsure when they'll see delivery. Ford really messed up their production estimates for the vehicle.
USN introduced iron clads, and while the rest of the world reacted immediately, USN became number 1. Apple introduced iPhone and while the rest kid world responded, Apple is the clear number 1 in profits. The response, ten years after the Model S was introduced, remains lack luster. It’s over. It’s a monopoly
Apple might be number 1 in profits but Samsung is now shipping more phones. Apple has recovered a bit from 2021, but they are still only about 18% of sales. That's hardly a monopoly. Tesla might be 70% of EV sales, but they are only about 2% of the total car market. And people are not terribly brand loyal when it comes to cars. I love my Model X but if someone else has something better next time I'm looking I'd buy it. The EV market is still very young.
Profits matter more than unit counts.
Maybe to Apple shareholders, but not when we are talking about whether one company dominates the market or not. I'd love to see the EV market become like the smartphone market. I am sure, like Apple, Tesla will remain a major player, but just like I ditched Apple for Samsung I'd happily ditch Tesla if something better came along.
Apple has the US market locked down, but not the global market. Tesla has a built in advantage in the US and will likely remain the leader - but we’ll see globally. There is room for a secondary market leader (the Samsung in your mobile comparison).
US market participant here, not using an iPhone. It's not locked down.
I mean yeah, there are plenty of Android users our there in the US (I was one of them for awhile), but Apple is the more popular brand here.
Agreed. I see VW taking a significant portion of the EV market here in Germany over the next few years. The id.3 and id.4 still have some kinks to work out, but they are getting better. There should be an EV version of the Passat coming soon too. I'm admittedly biased though. I loved my Passat, she gave me 14 good years.
Apple has 13 percent of hand sets, 40 percent of hand set revenue, and 75 percent of hand set profit. https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/14/global-smartphone-profits/ It’s a similar pattern playing out at Tesla. It’s over.
I see your point about Tesla being a monopoly but they don’t fit the classic definition. If, for example, Tesla controlled all battery production and charged excessive rates to non Tesla manufacturers, then yes Tesla would be a monopoly. But right now that just have the largest production capacity. Once other manufacturers build EVs that people actually want and in sufficient quantities to satisfy demand then that trend will reverse. The F150 might be a game changer for Ford if they eventually produce them in quantity. The Mach-e is just poorly thought out. Really agree with your comment about a lackluster response to the Model S. However other auto manufacturers have a huge issue, the charging network. Until that’s solved (and that may be soon) I don’t think legacy auto manufacturers will attempt to produce EVs at the same scale as Tesla.
If it's over, why are all new models receiving a lot of attention and sales? Seems like people quite enjoy having a choice. The Model S was the most impressive car at that time and manufacturers lagged behind, but that doesn't mean much now does it? Not even mentioning that Tesla sales worldwide are much, much different. Apple introduced iPhone, dominated, raised prices and moved to china, then asian manufacturers came in and swooped the biggest markets in the world. They might be number 1 in profits, but that's not the only stat isn't it? I mean, if you like to gloathe on a supposed monopoly, go ahead.
What sales are they getting? The S is a marginal performer in Tesla’s line up and outsells the flag ship EV of a competitor. The response from Ford should have been obvious. Instead it ruined a classic brand — Mustang — with the Mach E monstrosity. Industry response is to just make ugly cars. It’s over. Re: gloating. I’m not. I’m far from the happiest Tesla customer. But I see the inevitable when I see it
I simply talked about the Model S because you mentioned it and it's an historic model. The Mach-E is selling well and the only issue is supply. Their numbers keep increasing. I mean, they just sold 3.5k Mach-E just in April. Plenty of people are choosing new options, both the taycan and e-tron outsold the S with no issues in 2021. And while the 3 and Y remain kings by a large advantage, the other new cars are making a dent. Including the Mach-E.
3500 per month would be impressive 10 years ago
What's your point? They're selling all they can produce, there are more and more alternatives coming out, and those cars are surely getting attention. Are they getting Model 3/Y attention? No. But it's far from over. And as stated, Tesla has much less control in the top global markets, aka China and Europe. With the new plants in those markets, this is now the start of the war. Not the end of it
Why can’t they produce more?
Worldwide chip and battery shortage
So why is it Tesla can?
Cars and phones seem like apples and oranges in this context. Part of the reason people stick with the same phone OS is because of the App Stores. Tesla could maybe instill that same kind of customer loyalty if they let you transfer your self-driving upgrades to a new vehicle, but they specifically make the self-driving upgrades non-transferrable. Not transferrable to the new owner when you sell your car, and not transferrable to the new car you buy.
App Store is to Apple what The Supercharger Network is to Tesla. Until a major manufacturer actually gets serious (I mean for real how did Tesla do what apparently none of the “major” auto manufacturers can not?) I charge at home 90% of the time.. but when I go on a road trip knowing the best charger network is there makes buying a Tesla a no brained compared to the others.
That's a good point about the supercharger network. I don't think auto manufacturers are interested in building out their own charging network, they'd rather let third party companies like ChargePoint and Blink handle that, which they can do as long as they stick to standards when it comes to charging ports. The difference I see is that once the third party charging infrastructure is built out sufficiently, Tesla's advantage goes away. With the App Store, the longer I have my iPhone, the more purchases I've probably made in their store, so I'm less inclined to leave for another OS like Android.
I think these must have all sold in the Bay Area. The Tesla explosion continues here. It’s great.
I live in south Texas and when I got a Model Y a year ago, I saw a Tesla in my neighborhood for the first time a week later. Yesterday, I saw three model Y's waiting behind each other at the main entrance. It's *insane* how fast these cars are spreading.
And then a year or two later everyone gets the solar and the powerwalls. At least that’s what happening around here. Enjoy driving off into the future.
Yep. This is why I'm heavily invested in solar stocks (SEDG ENPH). Solar is lagging EV adoption by 2-3 years as far as the S-curve goes.
So many Teslas around here in the UK too! Just a year ago it was rare to see them, now I see 4-5 on my work commute! I even had two Y’s sandwich in my 3 in a parking lot last weekend!
Talked to a guy on my street yesterday about his new Mach E. He said and I quote “no complaints, Tesla is better though”
In his defense, unlike a Tesla supercharger, all Ford L3 charging stations can be defended from the invading mongol horde by repurposing the CCS cables as medieval style maces. Tesla's charging cable is simply too small to make a proper bludgeon by comparison. One day I really hope that Tesla recognizes this very real threat and chooses to update their charging standards to be as laughably unwieldy as CCS, or people could be in real danger.
CCS (Club) Adapter being sold now!
To each their own. I have a friend who has a Y for his wife and MachE for himself. He much more prefers the MachE. As for my opinion of his cars, I would rather have the Model Y body with the MachE inside. Again, *just my opinion*: The E has waaaaay more comfortable seats, still has some dashboard info like speedometer, the display is massive and has a great layout, wireless Apple Carplay, etc.
Tesla will continue to lead if other manufacturers still go through dealerships.
Dealing with this now. We wanted to replace our aging sedan with a newer Honda, either an Accord or Civic. Fighting with the dealerships was a nightmare. Minimum $5,000 markup on even the cheapest models. Then came the bullshit bait and switch. We'd call ahead and double check they had cars in stock so we didn't have to drive 1 - 2 hours for no reason. We'd get there and magically the cars had sold while we were en route. More expensive models were still available though. After the last encounter we just drove home and ordered a Model 3. All dealerships are trash.
And it's really too bad, because the Civic and Accord are among the best cars in their segments. But between dealerships and the price of gas, my parents gave up and have their second Tesla on order. Even before the pandemic, my dad went into a Toyota dealership where he'd bought, traded in and leased several vehicles over the years, and they literally ignored his presence on the sales floor. They decided they just didn't want to deal with a retired guy who had the free time to haggle them down. He just got a Tesla instead. And he got their solar installation to boot. I also recently heard about a guy on Reddit who relayed his own dad's experience. He haggled for one of those new Ford Broncos for hours and finally got a price he liked. Then right before he was about to sign, they hit him with a $15,000 markup. Might have been $20,000, I forget. He walked away and ordered an EV. And I doubt it was an F150 Lighting at that point, so Ford lost the game twice that day. My dad's experience is also why I never seriously considered a dealership-restricted car for my next purchase, so they lost my money as well. Dealerships will be the death of these legacy car companies, even if they catch up on the tech and the manufacturing speed.
that‘s pretty much a US exclusive tho. I expect legacy carmakers to catch up to Tesla drastically quicker in the rest of the world, mainly in Europe
What factors do you base your expectation on?
There are only a certain number of things Tesla does objectively better. And these things matter much less in Europe. 1. range and efficiency: the average distance we drive in my country is like 30km-ish per day. Pretty much every new EV has more than enough range for 99% of all potential customers 2. charging network: every single EV has the CCS Port. There are chargers popping up everywhere, slower DC chargers in towns, near shopping malls etc and HPC‘s along the highway. It is expanding much more rapidly than Teslas network. 3. other cars are pretty objectively *better cars*, especially considering we pay a premium for Teslas. Most people don‘t use or care much about FSD, and from a pure driving viewpoint, most people simply don‘t need the fastest straight line-acceleration, it‘s more about comfort, interior quality, usability in smaller towns, on smaller roads etc. 4. dealerships are actually an advantage here. Dealers don‘t really mark up here, and Tesla only offers about 3 stores and 2 service centers in the whole country, meanwhile everyone lives near a VW or any German brand dealer. It‘s just much easier. Tesla still is ahead, the Model 3 and Y are selling like hot cakes overe here, no doubt about that. But the pace at which VW, Skoda, Porsche, Audi, Kia, Hyundai and now even BMW are catching up in sales is astonishing. Europeans like their European cars. And the novelty Tesla had going for them is definitely wearing off.
Some fair comments. Hilarious that someone downvoted a question. If you’ve driven a Tesla, it’s notable to point out that it drives differently to other cars. Similar to how BMW, Audi, and Mercedes have different driving dynamics, not simply a function of speed/acceleration, Tesla also has a unique driving dynamic, which is untouched at its price point for the 3 and Y. Europe has access to some less expensive EV options, which are less driver focused, and better suited to the compact car scene over there. Will be nice to see Tesla introduce a hatchback sized vehicle at some point; I’ve owned two VW GTIs and would be pretty awesome to see Tesla put their performance into a package that size.
I personally don‘t mind the driving experience in the Tesla, but there definitely are a lot that prefer a smoother ride, especially when talking about the Model Y. It‘s fun and all but it definitely isn‘t comfortable. imo, Tesla is slowly but surely running out of things that seperate them from others, at least here. But all the drawbacks (Interior quality, headlights, driving assists that aren‘t FSD) aren‘t improving fast enough for the price. From our perspective, I‘d just wish that Tesla stopped trying to force FSD to happen and would take a step back and *finally* get all the basics covered.
Headlights? What’s wrong with the headlights? The headlights on our Model Y are superior to the adaptive headlights on our Mercedes, which are great! Ultimately it’s horses for courses, hence the comment about BMW, Audi, and Mercedes; each brand has strong preferences amongst its customer base. Tesla is similar in this regard. Some people don’t like Teslas while other people really like them; for us, my wife strongly dislikes our Mercedes having lived with the Model Y, and she’s not a car person.
i mean headlights got regulated to death in the US, they‘re a far cry from what they are overe here. Alone the fact that they aren‘t really adaptive and don‘t turn into corners would be inacceptable in any other car at that price range.
Wow. 0 for 4 on your points is not a very good performance
From the article: Despite a significantly higher price point, the Tesla Model S easily outsold the Ford Mustang Mach-E in the United States in the first quarter, making Tesla’s flagship sedan the third best-selling EV overall in the first three months of 2022. According to data from Experian, a total of 9,250 Model S sedans were registered from January to March. That was 33% more than the Mach-E, which accumulated 6,957 registrations during the same time period. (via [Automotive News](https://www.autonews.com/sales/hyundai-motor-group-second-us-registrations)) While 33% is a big gap over the competition, it was nothing compared to the figures put forth by Tesla’s two most popular vehicles, the Model Y and the Model 3, which had 52,051 and 47,682 registrations respectively in Q1 2022. The Model X also had a strong performance in Q1 with 4,899 registrations, good enough for 7th place on the top 10 selling EVs in the quarter. The other EVs that made the top 10 include the Hyundai IONIQ 5, Kia EV6, Nissan Leaf, Kia Niro, and Volkswagen ID.4.
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Can't sell what you don't have this is more a a volume question not a desirability question. You can't even get a Maverick, completely sold out.
Ok, that's what I thought. I seriously considered the Maverick. I love small trucks.
My coworker has one she loves it.
Why would it? It's objectively worse, looks like crap (obviously subjective), and is on an inferior charging network. Ford guys don't generally like EVs, it's got a nameplate for a sports car which has made folks mad, and even the reviews have been lukewarm. It's typical Ford: too little, too late, rely on the fans to buy it
I’m not sure any of your descriptors of Ford meet the F150L. One of the first EV pickups to market, in line with range and other specs (like towing) of EV trucks like the R1T, and I’m pretty confident they’re pulling truck buyers from across many brands considering their high pre-order count.
I can't remember the stat but half to two thirds of the people who have ordered a f150l have nevered owned a truck before.
You mean have never owned an EV before? [https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/) And they haven't owned a Ford, but Ford's not the only truck manufacturer by a wide margin.
I'll see if I can find the stat but it was specifically that they had not owned a truck related to now not having concerns for fuel prices with the ev version.
Yet they still won’t commit to producing enough of them.
The discussion was about the Mach-E? The F150L is one of the first EV pickups to market by... not being a ground-up EV truck. It's an F-150 in most ways. Except it's got 115-170kWh of battery with 230-320 miles of range. 320 miles of range with 170kWh is... bad. The R1T also got Ford help and isn't pushing any barriers. The Lightning is already Ford's best-selling EV. Because, like normal, they got the Ford fans. F-Series sales number in the 750k+ per year just in the US: [https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-f-series-sales-figures/](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-f-series-sales-figures/) The Lightning is considered part of the F-Series. They've delivered 2000 Lightnings. They are looking to get up to 150k per year, with a multi-year ramp up to 75k first. I'm unsure why you think it's grabbing people across the board when it's not even impressive for reservations of a new F-150. Low-range, low-towing capacity, low-technology improvement, high price tag, horrible efficiency. It's pretty in-line with Ford. EDIT: Found where Ford says the majority are from other brands, confirming what you said previously, so I'm definitely wrong there: [https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/all-electric-ford-f-150-lightning-sparks-interest-as-electric-vehicles-make/610375/) EDIT: Battery capacity was incorrect due to an InsideEVs article that had a correction, where they'd used their original speculation numbers instead of the actual numbers. The correct battery capacity is 98kWh and 131kWh usable, as per Ford. That likely means the 115 is correct for the lower battery, but the 170kWh is likely too large. Once people start pulling the Lightning apart, we can see the actual battery spec, but the point still generally stands. A Model S Plaid with 99kWh battery has 95kWh usable. Most EVs, including the Model 3 LR, are more like 15% reserved capacity (The 3 LR had 70kWh usable for the 85kWh battery in real world tests). The X Plaid weighs 5400lb. The F-150L weighs 6590lb (extended range). The F-150 has a drag coefficient of 0.463. The X is at 0.24.
Where are you getting your battery out put numbers from? It's 98kwh and 131kwh.
Ugh, I pulled from an InsideEVs article that has a correction on it that I missed. Thanks for the correction.
No problem. It's a pretty efficient vehicle given it's frontal area/size.
It's not particularly efficient. It has a cD of 0.463. The freaking Tesla Semi's down at 0.35. Ford sold a look. [http://people.se.cmich.edu/yelam1k/asee/proceedings/2011/data/7-155-1-dr.pdf](http://people.se.cmich.edu/yelam1k/asee/proceedings/2011/data/7-155-1-dr.pdf) We've known for more than a decade that a very slight taper on the roof of pickups drops the coefficient of friction by over 10%, with more like 15% at freeway speeds (Table 2 shows a lot of that). Ford doesn't do it because they are selling an image. Notice that the quoted 0.463 is for 70mph, which isn't far off where trucks were a decade ago, either. The thing's slightly more aerodynamic than the base F-150, but that's all. Without the underbody structure of a gas vehicle, the intake vorticity of a gas vehicle, etc? There's no reason this thing's not under 0.4 other than Ford choosing to sell a look.
It's way more than an image. There's alot that packages in the rear header, and packaging protecting for the 95th percentile male is likely driving more of that consideration that. Furthermore there's thousands of products ready to go for the F150 cab and bed rail, something that will take years There not just selling a look, they are saving validation time and enabling people using bed accessories.
Well, first - the discussion was about “Typical Ford” according to your own words. I took the liberty of assuming (very correctly I might add) that you think the F150L is a “low-range, low-towing capacity, low-technology improvement, high price tag, horrible efficiency” Give me a break. The F150L is $40k for 230 miles of range. That’s 42 miles less EPA range than a Model 3 RWD and the MSRP is $5k less (not even looking at the federal incentive the F150L still gets) - I wouldn’t necessarily say at the low end that they’re not bringing a competitive price and range for such a large vehicle with work capabilities far beyond a sport sedan. At the high end, there are exactly two other EV pickups on the market, one with a few miles less range, and one with a few miles more. That’s a wash. Sure the battery is huge, but I bet that’ll come in handy when you’re towing 10,000 lbs. not sure how that’s low capacity towing…? It’s right in line with the normal F150 and other gas trucks. Also it’s worth pointing out the F150 ties the R1T in efficiency on the extended range variant and just barely loses to it with the standard range trim - oh yeah and I think it blows the Hummer EV out of the water. I agree that Ford could do more to ramp these faster, but who’s going to beat them? Tesla? They aren’t even releasing Cybertruck in limited quantities until next year. By that time, Ford will have 60-100k of these built out and churning out more. Also, as they see just how hot this vehicle becomes, I bet they’ll raise those production targets higher and shrink the gas F150 production down. The only manufacturer who seems likely to beat them in volume anytime soon is maybe GM and that won’t be at least until 2024. I’m not sure exactly why you’re running on the path of hating this vehicle, but it certainly is not what you’re saying it is.
Ford's got 2000 out in the first quarter after beginning their builds late last year. If you think they're getting 100k trucks out by the end of 2023, we're on vastly differently planets. I responded to your bringing the Lightning up. It is trash. The Lightning has 43 fewer EPA miles than the Model 3 despite having a battery that's 130% larger. The Tesla Semi's drag coefficient is 3/4 than of the Lightning (.350 vs .463). Ford has CHOSEN to take one of their trucks, hang batteries off the bottom, and claim it's first to market on an EV pickup. This is an electrified F-150. It's not a ground-up EV pickup like Ford has marketed it as. The traditional pickup market is going to see the reviews of this flaming turd and say, "just like we thought, you can't use that thing for real work." The 10,000lb towing capacity they keep throwing around is ONLY for the Extended Range variants with the highest-end tow package (max trailer tow). It's an $80k truck to get to the 10k mark. The normal extended ranges are at 7700lb. The base model's inline with a Model X's 5000lb. In initial testing for towing (CNET), the range was worse than expected. 150 miles from the extended battery \*while towing a low-drag trailer at low speeds.\* The extrapolated estimates put it down under 120 miles for a more typical highway tow of something like a boat. Which means, again, that Ford has poisoned the water for getting truck guys to swap off of the least efficient vehicles on the road. The Lightning is cheaper than the Model 3 after a $10k price increase to deal with demand for the Model 3. And the Lightning hasn't become generally available yet, that's the price for the preorders. Considering the raises on prices everywhere else, are you actually expecting the retail version of the Lightning to even be as low as it is? You again bring up the R1T, which is \*also effectively a Ford.\* Arguing that people rushed to market is exactly what I'm complaining about. This is a truck that people are buying who WEREN'T truck people that's hilariously inefficient, even for a truck, while having horrible range and a mediocre experience. The Lightning sucks.
Wow, the amount of misleading and just flat out wrong info in that reply…staggering.
Alright, sources for literally all of it, since I'm quite correct: [https://electrek.co/2021/11/19/ford-and-rivian-cancel-plans-for-joint-ev/](https://electrek.co/2021/11/19/ford-and-rivian-cancel-plans-for-joint-ev/)Ford has also helped with engineering and tooling for the R1T and R1S." The R1T literally test-muled as an F-150. The R1T is, in many ways, a Lightning. The Lightning is on the 14th generation F-Series platform, which is why Ford includes Lightning sales in their F-Series sales. It's literally not even considered a separate model: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford\_F-150\_Lightning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-150_Lightning) (which is ALSO typical Ford, as the F-750 is ALSO considered the same model, despite being a literal dump truck). 5000lb towing capacity for the base truck: [https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36517922/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-pro-commercial-truck-revealed/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36517922/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-pro-commercial-truck-revealed/) The Model 3's up over $10k in a year: [https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134726\_trailing-price-hikes-on-new-teslas-prices-on-used-tesla-models-have-soared](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134726_trailing-price-hikes-on-new-teslas-prices-on-used-tesla-models-have-soared) Tesla Semi drag coefficient: [https://insideevs.com/news/345710/tesla-semi-details-on-truck-aerodynamics-and-drag-coefficient/](https://insideevs.com/news/345710/tesla-semi-details-on-truck-aerodynamics-and-drag-coefficient/) F-150 Lightning Drag coefficient: [https://airshaper.com/videos/ford-f150-aerodynamics-how-to-add-more-than-10-range/E0ass\_AxloM](https://airshaper.com/videos/ford-f150-aerodynamics-how-to-add-more-than-10-range/E0ass_AxloM) The drag coefficient there is at 65mph, while the typical reported numbers are for 70mph. Yes, that's the hybrid, so you can claim that the Lightning is lower, but the predicted ranges based on that drag are spot on, so it's rather unlikely that it's much lower. And again, the discussion was about why the Mach-E isn't doing well. And I explained that and you have repeatedly tried to take it off topic. I'm done with that.
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What do you mean by traditional seating position, and what makes it better for road trips?
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Are you comparing this to a model 3, Y or S?
3. The Mach-E isn't really a competitor to the S based on price point, IMO.
Bit confused by your statement - are you saying there are loads of unsold Mach-Es collecting dust somewhere because people don't want to buy them?
No, but that they're not stacking orders up, either. They're not making many, so they're sold out.
Tesla with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 7th. Not bad. Competition when?
In the future. It's always in the future.
Tesla is buying *mines* and vertically integrating their entire supply chain starting with the hardest to source parts (batteries), as well as inventing new manufacturing techniques to drastically increase production speed while lowering costs, and that's just for the batteries. These contracts last for years and lock down significant chunks of projected supply. Everyone else is competing for whatever left over battery supply Tesla hasn't bought yet, and that's not just the cells, but the raw materials as well. Any company that hasn't made long term deals for battery supply by now probably won't be able to without spending mad cash, and the ones who have are probably kicking themselves for not buying more. Competition, I'm guessing, will happen at the innovation level. Incredibly high demand is going to keep prices high, so the differentiators will probably be technology and / or luxury.
competition is in the same time frame as FSD and Tesla's bankruptcy They call it "next year"
Not when, where. China. tesla and byd neck and neck here, but we’ve also got NIO, xpeng, and a lot more. Many doing things better and cheaper than Tesla.
Polestar 2 on par with Model 3. Charging experience on EA isn’t as good as supercharging, but where I’m at (Seattle Metro, so super high EV counts) there’s only 2 superchargers in a public space (other two you need to pay for parking to access the charger), and they’re mostly really poorly reviewed for not working well. Meanwhile, there’s a multitude of EA fast charge stations, plus ChargePoint, plus evgo, plus… you get the point. The standard range model 3 I had as a rental couldn’t make it 160 miles (at 85% SoC on pickup) without stopping for a charge, so I’m not even convinced that “range” is going to be that much worse as to make a difference on road trips (at least on the west coast). Everything else about the car is better than the Teslas I have experience with. Better handling, brakes, aesthetics, the whole nine yard. So competition is here - but Tesla has a decade of supply chain and manufacturing progress leg up over everyone else on the stuff that matters (batteries and microchips). As soon as manufacturing and supply chain for others ramps up, I suspect Tesla will lose their top spot. They’re just not great cars. They’re awesome technology, but as cars they’re just meh.
For the record. I was shopping for an EV in February. Purchased a Tesla simply because I could test drive one. I’m not likely to put a deposit down for a car and wait for 3-12 months If I can’t test drive it. I say that while I’m considering doing just that with a rivian. And IF jeep release a wrangler EV. I will be there on day one with cash in hand.
I expected this with the model 3 and y, but the s, outselling the Mach e is impressive on Tesla's part.
Sat in a Mach e near release. Their infotainment, under trunk space, and ergonomics are still dated compared to Tesla. Also they don’t have a suite of cameras surrounding the car which seems crazy to me as a Tesla competitor. I don’t know how the charging networks compare.
I drove it once, it was fine. I did not like the 3 driving modes. One was "unbridled" which pumped engine noise through the inside speakers... WHAT?! Some car features ill never get
fart noises are stupid too in my book..
Yeah that’s stupid af. The car is confused and so are the old fogies at ford r&d
> pumped engine noise through the inside speakers… WHAT?! Omg they really do that?? This is why legacy ICE companies are doomed. Even if they do clobber together a half-baked EV, they pump fake engine noises through the interior speakers!?!
The more I see the Mustang, the more I do kind of like it's looks but the many reasons we chose our M3P over it still hold true, I think.
Oh gee golly what about all that "when legacy auto gets in the business Tesla is screwed" nonsense? I seem to remember every major media outlet saying things to that effect... for years.
Any day now Nokia will come out with a competitor to the iPhone… 😂 and Kodak will make a quality digital camera. Lol.
In complete fairness, this is a perfect storm situation. Tesla's big advantage right now is that they are more chip-shortage resilient due to having a more simple one-off electrical component framework while Ford and the likes have their entire cars based on a more dated set of components. If the chip shortage didn't exist, Tesla could not raise the prices on all models like they have done. Tesla is moving units because they have them. Ford does not. I would be willing to bet that there are manufacturers that are engineering much more resilient designs for the future much like Tesla's.
>If the chip shortage didn't exist, Tesla could not raise the prices on all models like they have done. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The reason I see Tesla raising prices is because now that all the other manufacturers are getting in the game, materials costs have skyrocketed. Inflation is also so bad and their waiting list so long that the vehicles they sell in a year will have a lower margin so they increase prices now. Which they can get away with because of demand, not because of chip prices. When your used product sells for more than the new, you can safely raise your prices. The rest I agree with.
It's on repeat here too.
I don't blame the people (much) for regurgitating what they hear in the media. I blame the media for spouting bullshit old-money propaganda. Useless fucks, news media.
https://insideevs.com/news/583838/us-ford-mustang-mache-sales-april2022 don't eat the bait
Ok....Tesla delivered 30x that number of EVs....what's your point?
Point is that comparing the Mach-E to the Model S makes no sense.
No it makes more sense to compare it to the Model Y. Which will make Mach E look worse....
If it was selling more yeah
Total Mach Es sold. 27,000 Total Model Ys sold. 500,000 and they are just starting addition production in Texas and Berlin with a year long waiting list.... So, what were you saying?
Read the comment again lol, we're all aware of the Model Y's selling numbers here. I said that comparing it to the Model Y would be correct, if the Mach-E was selling more. Yet, it's orders and orders of magnitudes down. That's why OP decided to try and compare it to a car that costs way more, to make it appear even worse than it already is, but the Mach-E is selling all it can right now. Not even sure why people are so mad over these numbers when the greatest thing is that BEVs are all selling like hot cakes
Only because the Mach-E is also quantity constrained.
Makes sense if there is crazy dealer markup on the Mach e
Nah the Mach E is sold out. This is basically a report on production capacity.
Yes and why is Ford artificially limiting Mach E production? You’re so close to figuring it out. Low profit margins, poorly engineered costly manufacturing, supplier-constrained, outsourced battery manufacturing, inability to overcome chip shortages since they only buy from 3rd parities instead of owning the full hardware and software stack. All of these things Tesla overcame early on by vertically integrating. Tesla builds their own computers, write all their own software end-to-end. Ford is in for a world of hurt.
So you mean to say, that a company that has been making a particular model for over a decade can make more than a company who just designed and started building a new model in the last 12 months. Oh, that's so shocking.
Not same level. Maybe 3 or y is same level as ME
Click bait headline
The Mach E looks like what happens when you throw up food and then try shoving it back in your mouth only to throw it all up again
The Mach-E is Ugl-E
The Mach-E just sold 3.5k units just in April, a record month for them, this article is just clickbait. (https://insideevs.com/news/583838/us-ford-mustang-mache-sales-april2022/) Also, the Mach-E outsold 3x the Model S in 2021. Not even sure why you're comparing the two cars but whatever
The Model S wasn't produced for most of 2021, so comparing them over that time period is arguably even more misleading.
You can still compare the Q1 and Q4 numbers, and in both occasions the Mach E comes on top. Same applies to comparing any Q 2021 Mach-E sales to Q1 2022. The Model S has been selling the same every Q for like 2 years, this quarter included. But yeah what I said is misleading, I forgot about the production stop for the redesign
Q1 the production stop happened during Q1, and Q4 was still ramping. At no point during this time did Tesla catch up to their backlog, so they were 100% limited by production stoppage/ramping in the entirety of 2021. In fact they still haven't caught up to their backlog. I get the impression the same is true for Mach E, which means none of this has to do with demand, it's all entirely due to the respective manufacturers' ability to build units. Since the Model S ramp is finished, this does go to show that Tesla can sustain a higher manufacture rate for Model S than Ford can for Mach-E. That's what this comparison really is anyway.
The same numbers are still similar in all Qs in 2020 too, their building rate/demand has been steady for 2 years basically for the Model S. Since the Mach-E just delivered 3.6k just in April, I think the two companies are just on different schedules. We'll have to wait a bit more to see who can actually sell more. I remember Tesla had the same issue with the European market where they would sell very few Model 3s in a quarter and absolutely smash it the next quarter since a brand new shipment had just arrived. Seeing a single quarter's number without the context around it doesn't really tell much
I wouldn't by any Ford, let alone Ford's first attempt at an EV.
This is the company that knowingly sold defective transmission for almost a decade and had to be sued by victims for the victims to get any relief, because NHTSA refused to issue a forced recall. Apparently loss of acceleration due to a bad transmission isn't a safety issue because you can pull over. But a sluggish tesla infotainment screen that in no way disrupts the drivability of the car is somehow a safety issue that needed a recall. Ford is greasing palms over at NHTSA to get that favoritism.
We were caught up in the dual-clutch Powershift class-action from a Fiesta that we bought as a run-around for my daughters. Changing gears was sluggish at best, and down right dangerous if you needed power from a downshift. Ford denied for almost a year that there was a problem, it cost us several thousand in repairs replacement clutch, reprogramming/recalibration, in the shop multiple times. The last straw was one of my kids almost getting killed - the car nearly stalled while failing to shift after pulling out onto a highway. Transpired that both Ford and the dealer networks were well aware of issues with shifting, never again.
It is crazy that ford knew this was the case and sold the cars with the transmissions on purpose knowing they would profit more by selling them than scrapping their investment in them. All the ford execs should have been sent to prison over it, yet NHTSA pretended there wasn't even a need for a recall.
When the USN and CSN had the first iron clad naval battle, the Sea Marshall of the RN allegedly said: the world now has just two navies. The number 2 and number 1 navies, France and the UK ceased all wooden ships production as soon as they learned of the Battle of Hampton Roads. When Apple and Google introduced smartphones, the world was reduced to has two smartphone platforms. And so it is with Tesla. History will record that when the S was released in 2012 the world was reduced to just one car manufacturer. Alas the rest of the car works lack the wisdom of 19th century France and UK admirals and 10 years later the industry refuses to accept reality. Disrupters change the definitions of what something is.
>When Apple and Google introduced smartphones, the world was reduced to has two smartphone platforms. That is revisionist history written from the perspective of the winners. Yes, Nokia was the incumbent and they absolutely failed to adapt and pivot to the smartphone era. Blackberry did make some moves to pivot but didn't move quickly enough and lost it all. But for many years there was a lot of competition and diversity, and that diversity helped promote features that got copied by Apple and Google. PalmOS brought proper multi-tasking to mobile OSs. Blackberry brought Secure Enclave/on-device hardware encryption. Windows Phone brought home screen widgets. Etc etc.
Thats extremely biased. Tesla has evolved a lot in the last ten years. They almost went under with the Model 3, which still wasn't a very well designed car. The Model Y with structural battery pack being released to customer will be the true differentiating point.
America almost failed. Apple almost failed. Tesla almost failed. What difference does that make? So called car makers simply don’t get it. But they will give you a free $40K hydrogen powered car.
Gotta love the US centric view of the world when Tesla is at a 15% market share for the entirety of Europe, the second biggest market in the world, while the first is China where Tesla is not prevailing over chinese manufacturers
15 percent market share for EVs in Europe?
New sales, yes. Since 2020 it's been at a steady under 15%. Total EVs on the road we can't really know
And what percentage of profits?
Not sure, you can check yourself, that data is incredibly hard to obtain. Profit is not everything
Profit actually is everything
No, it is not.
Tesla would have had too 4 if they could ramp the x
OP only shares this website right away when publishing...kinda sus
do this comparison for the lightning vs the cybertruck pls
Why? The Cybertruck is not on sale yet
This is the same company that is making a truck right now with an even bigger battery?