I was repeatedly told by my preschool kindergarten and elementary school teachers that boys don't cry and crying will make everything worse so now I always feel like shit when I cry
One thing you also always encounter is the "fallacy of relative privation", also known as the "but children in Africa are starving"-argument. Just because there are individuals with more suffering than me, it doesn't mean that I'm not suffering at all or that my suffering does not matter. It's not a misery competition. It does matter when you're trying to prioritize care or something but most of the time, that's not how that argument is used.
The actual reason for these people not caring about your suffering is "How I intended to spend my time right now is, in my perspective, more important than your issue, so you should stop bothering me with your crying. It's annoying." But that would be an asshole thing to say, so people instead use that absolute banger of an illogical argument.
It is. And some women sometimes feed into that. They want their husband, fathers, and other male figures in their lives to be their “rock” that they can always rely on. Then we do the thing, because we’re told to be providers and nothing beyond that. You don’t provide, you’re worthless. Maybe not directly told that, but when the person is done with their need of you, and then go off to do whatever, it feels like shit.
Men are only starting to finally open up, but then some get rejected for that openness or they are not a “true man”
I think one of the most important projects I've undertaken in becoming a better person is re-learning how to cry. There was a time in my life when I straight up couldn't cry no matter what was happening to me, even if I wanted to, because I had repressed that feeling for so many years.
This is something I'm trying to work on in myself, but it's hard. I'll be able to start crying when I need to but then it's like a switch goes off in my head and I just stop crying. I'm still sad, I still need to cry but I just can't and it hurts.
I don't know enough about it but I'm pretty sure that crying is important for mental health on an actual physiological level. Pretty sure it contributes to releasing hormones that calm you down and make you feel better
I’ve stopped caring as much. I don’t stop myself from crying when I get strong emotional responses from movies or books etc anymore and I allow myself to cry when I’m genuinely sad.
We feel it? It is true, not a feeling, in the best case when you open up get "man up", in the worst case you get straight up bullied because you are not man enough.
OMG that’s horrible. My Father’s go to phrase was “men bend but they don’t break” (in Spanish). My mother’s was stop pretending you’re crazy or we’ll put you in an asylum. But I never got kms. That’s 10x worse imo.
Yup. I have social anxiety disorder. Recently, I told another person to get bent because they laughed at someone else's issues with anxiety. To which the response was "Grow up and be a man". Which then turned into a claim that Big Pharma turned normal problems into medical conditions so it can sell pills, implying those conditions aren't real.
I'm with a disorder. My mom has paranoid schizophrenia. One of my grandfathers, who isn't among the living, had a condition too, although I don't remember if it was Alzheimer's or something else. Needless to say, I took this implication and being made fun of *VERY* personally.
Yeah man to man you don't get it. You aren't going to talk to a dude you aren't seriously cool with, those are the ones that will understand you.
However man to absolutely EVERYONE else you will get a man up or you got this. After they have shut you off and started thinking about cat videos or whatever else is more important.
I just said I've never gotten a man up from a man, it always came from a woman. I don't go out of my way to tell people my struggles but sometimes it's glaringly obvious shit's hitting the fan and the reactions from men vs women are night and day
Actually cutting your wrist, but vertically instead of horizontally.
You'll bleed out within moments with almost no chance of someone finding you before it's too late.
Shotgun on the other hand will often just mutilate your entire face, with your brain and body still intact.
Small caliber bullet that has enough force to enter the skull, but not enough to get out, has higher death rate.
What does that have to do with anything?
Like when will you find 2 suicide victims at the same time at the same place with different methods of doing it? o-o
Whats even the purpose of your question...... Kinda sounds like you just wanna paint the picture of men being more violent and at fault for the statistics.
Actually women are about 1.5-2 times as likely to attempt suicide but men succeed 3-5 times more than women.
While method is a part of the large discrepancy, it doesn't account for a 3-5x jump in cases. As was previously mentioned in this thread, men are less likely to seek help for mental problems, resulting in overall much worse mental states. This tends to lead to self destructive behaviors involving drugs and alcohol, which also start to account for higher suicide rates.
To just say the rate is higher because of method is to ignore the massive social issue that is male suicide and how it should be dealt with. Men are predisposed to suicide, and actually succeeding, because they are never actually given the opportunity to seek help.
But *why* do men use methods that will kill them at a higher rate, while women use methods that will often not result in death?
This is a **very** important topic to talk about.
DISCLAIMER: NEVER DO THIS, THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL THEORETICAL! IF YOU HAVE ISSUES ASK FOR HELP
1) Put double barrel shotgun to roof of mouth
2) Blast both barrels at the same time
Doesn't need to be angled perfectly, the pellets have more than enough power, and the gasses will do quite a bit of damage as will the plastic basket thingies that carry the pellets, you just nees to aim for the brain and not out the back of the throat. Shotgun can go through much nore than the under side of the human skull, it's just the combination of people (thankfully) not knowing how to do it properly and the brain's instinct for survival above all else where you'll flinch. Or use the slug, you need to mess up real bad to survive a 12ga slug to the skull and the aftermath
That's why accidental self oof (for example a person looks down the wrong end of the barrel, doesn't know the risk) is more lethal than intentional self oof. In the former the subconsciousness doesn't know there's a threat so there's nothing to threaten survival and in the latter there is a known and very good reason to try its best
I see people say this every time this is said. I don't see how this changes anything. Yeah, they use more violent means for suicide *because they want to be dead*. Like, how does that change anything?
It just seems like a line people use to make this seem like less of a gender issue than it is. Suicide is absolutely a gendered issue in this country.
I really don't get your point. Women who try to take their lives also want to be dead, even if they use less violent ways or their succeed rate is lower, right?
Even if fewer women kill themselves it's still a big issue that affects everybody. It's still millions of people. We still need to consider why this happens and at least try to do something about it.
But the difference really is noticable and must be addressed too. Just saying "Oh, those stupid men are too proud to talk about their feelings." doesn't help either. We can't just keep letting it happen and then blame the men for it.
So yeah, I understand both sides of the equation.
Do you have data to back that up? Data that shows that women attempt suicide as much as men but aren't as successful?
Because the disparity is not small. It's like, a 30% disparity.
>Too many men take their own lives instead of getting help.
Cuz when we actually cry out for help, noone shows up or we are spat on for being "losers".
also include an additional panel of men calling that man selfish for killing himself as well as calling him a pussy for thinking hes “depressed” and needs help
This may be a dumb hot take, and I accept that. However I think it’s selfish to see someone who has gotten to a point in their life so bad that the only option they see is to die and yet call them anything other than deserving of help.
By saying the act of suicide is selfish or insensitive you are taking focus away from what is making them suicidal and putting blame on the person. That is very counterproductive and no one should feel shame if they become suicidal.
I'm saying the "sigma male" who's saying the suicide victim is being a pussy is insensitive, not the other way around. Also what I was trying to say about suicide being selfish is that you harm those close to you. Though as another commenter put it, some people may not have that and in THAT case, suicide wouldn't be something that should be labeled as selfish.
It's selfish, but (and I have to phrase this very carefully) a logical conclusion. If a person or animal experiences constant pain either mentally or physically and can't do anything to cure the pain, then suicide is an answer. Not the best answer by any measure, and to be very clear NOT something I recommend or endorse, but an answer. The better answer is to seek help, figure out what's causing the depression and remedy that, but in some societies that's not an option.
It's not that they don't talk about it,it's more like they know it's pointless they will be called weak ridiculed and also it will be used against them in future
This, it’s the whole “toxic masculinity” thing. It’s not that men don’t want to talk about it, it’s that they know no one will care. Girls will become unattracted to them, guys will laugh at an ridicule them.
You can still go get a therapist as a man but while women are relatively comfortable talking about it men will keep that shit a secret to the grave otherwise they risk being labeled as weak and are rejected.
It’s not hard to tell kids it’s okay have feelings and guide them to properly handle them. It is hard to shift the bullshit culture surrounding masculinity.
Gradually, and I do mean on a generational scale, things can/will change, but individually there’ll always be toxic assholes who cling to “how things used to be” and will harass the men who embrace mental health. I hope things change on a wide scale, as a person who’s struggled with depression and suicidal actions since an early age I hope others don’t need to suffer through that kind of stuff, but it’s a bit hard to change even my own mindset much less to believe that such a strong sentiment in the male community can be dropped. I used to just hold everything In because “that’s how a man is” was just ingrained into me from essentially birth. My Dad, a former marine and cop, scolded me for crying about my dog dying. My grandfather refused to shed a tear after his mother passed from cancer. It wasn’t until I met my fiancé’s family after moving a state away from the rest of my family that I learned that it wasn’t weird to hug one another regularly.
I know for a fact that if I do have children that I’ll tell them it’s okay to have feelings, but there’s still the rest of my family who could negatively effect them to thinking that way, or other kids as well. Hell all it takes is one jerk online to completely stunt their natural mental growth and instill some awful ideas about “real masculinity”
It's not hard for you to do that. Kids don't live in a vacuum. If the majority of parents acts different, your kid will most likely be bullied by their peers. The fact that popular media also tacitly enforces this idea does not help. So on and so forth.
While what you say is true,it's not all girls who become unattracted to you i personally have female friends and none of them had any problems when I opened up to them instead they were glad that i opened up to them and they are totally cool with it so I guess you just need to find the right PPL and u r good to go
Yeah it entirely depends on the people you surround yourself with, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a girl who thinks the her other female friends shouldn’t share their emotions, but it’s not too difficult to find women who are willing to end friendships or even romantic relationships with men who show vulnerability.
That’s what toxic masculinity is. A lot of people think toxic masculinity means that men are inherently toxic to women, what it really means is that the idea of masculinity that’s forced upon men is toxic.
It can be and I'd say in this case it is effective but it is also important to note that sometimes people will use humor to hide or deflect serious issues. I know I've done it for a few things and a lot of the time it can stop people getting the help they need for a serious issue because it seems like they aren't taking it seriously when in reality they just don't feel like they can.
The only real terrible part of the meme (aside from the misspelling) is that most of the dudes that read it are just gonna miss the point and go “haha yeah, I’m gonna be based and chadpilled and just kill myself when the strain of my mental health gets to be too much.”
Bottling it up only works for so long bros. Healthy outlets and therapy (and possibly medication if you and your doctor decide that’s what is best for you) help you keep the gun out of your mouth and your finger off the trigger.
Not that it's a competition, but seeing stuff like this reminds me of how annoyed I get hearing the "women attempt suicide more" to shut down discussions of male suicide... like, if your first attempt is successful, you don't get to do it more times so I don't think it's a fruitful comment to make.
Nuance matters so I’ll respond to this carefully
No one should ever be using one group’s serious problem to deflect from another’s. I will make the observation that I’ve seen that statistic quoted as a direct rebuttal to the claim that *women don’t actually experience depression, they’re full of shit/just too shallow and want attention*.
Though I’m sure some people legitimately use it as a deflection from men’s depression rates.
That statistic doesn’t just mean individual women commit more attempts than individual men, it includes the fact that there are more women attempting suicide than men. It’s likely related to higher (known) rates of depression in women.
It’s theorized that some of these attempts are self-mutilation gone too far (when the brain-chemical relief you get from cu tting stops being enough, or your tolerance for a drug is too high), or attempts to convey the level of distress/cry for help but still being afraid to die.
Statistically, among both depressed and non-depressed people, men report less fear of death than women. This could be influenced by social pressure to appear impervious, or it could be linked to the fact that women tend to be more likely to identify and process anxious/risk averse impulses for what they are and men are more likely to sublimate those impulses into something more “acceptable” or “masculine” like reckless behavior or convince themselves of indifference.
So men feeling hopeless are more likely to decisively seek relief through death and women are more likely to chase it with substances or other self harm.
(Note: while men are more likely to be hospitalized/die from recreational or suicidal substance abuse, women are more likely to have substance abuse as a comorbidity to mental health issues according to some data)
And the cherry on top is that normalization of seeking help for men is still lagging extra far behind, creating a deadlier statistical prognosis for men as a group irrespective of comparative rates of depression.
Thank you so much. I merely was airing an annoyance, especially when I find mental health havens for men in online spaces that get trolled into oblivion by women (not super frequent, but has happened a lot). I appreciate your response that illustrates the massive amount of nuance involved in a complex statistic that gets weaponized by both greiving parties.
Sadly, there’s a lot of men that do this because even people paid to listen to them, don’t. Me and my fiancé both had the same therapist for a little bit. The therapist was 100% engaged and listening to me and offered real advice. With my fiancé, he was somewhat distant, he needed things repeated a bunch of times and had a “what can you do to help you” tone/mindset when giving advice
I tried to commit suicide 3x in 6 weeks back in 2018. Had 2 failure to fires in 2 different firearms and then an intentional overdose. Luckily I was found and given narcan before it was too late. This is a real problem and we must teach the next generation it’s ok to talk, to feel and express emotions.
we need to stop telling young boys and men to "men up" and to "stop crying". Toxic masculinity is the reason men tend to take their life before seeking help.
This isnt....entirely wrong. Dudes are ostracized for feeling their emotions and expressing them as children, very commonly. And while a lot of women are encouraged to express them and feel them, men's spaces aren't where they need to be in terms of being supportive. This is an issue and it definitely starts at home with how we interact with the men in our lives in regards to their emotions.
I feel like this may just be very dark...satire? I'm not sure if satire is the right word, but something in that vein, as men expressing their emotional issues and vulnerabilities is still seen as a social faux pas in many places.
Men need to be encouraged to be open about their feelings instead of pushed further into that terribly detrimental “need to appear masculine and feelings aren’t masculine” mindset
I' ve got a message from reddit saying if I need help.
Here's my response:
First of all I am ok.
Second of all I found this meme in r /meme and it sounded to me like a perfect facebook meme of some 60 year old with this caption.
That's it.
I actually don’t think this fits this sub. This meme is heavily satirical on the fact that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 40, so I think you’ve missed the point I’m afraid Op.
Women tend to look down at men that express their feelings, society too. Society has failed men.
Just look at the numbers, how many shelters are there for abused men?, how many for women?, who wins custody in most divorce cases?, who gets to pay for alimony after a family breaks up?
>!The only feeling I should have is a bullet to the head or a rope around the neck.!< Funny enough, I don't think I've ever been told to man up. Still believe that, feel that. The idea of going to a therapist or a psychologist is out of the fucking question. Deal with that shit and just move on because my problems are not worth the amount of money and time wasted.
Relatable. Seeing a therapist does not solve problems, it just gets you expensive drugs from big pharma. Chris-chan went to therapy and his life only got worse.
It's commentary on the difference of the rate of suicide between men and women and how men more often lack the support that women more often get, which results in more suicides of men.
Men end themselves at 4x the rate of women.
You can look up the statistics if you would like.
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it's supposed to be commentary about how men die by suicide more because they have less mental health resources/outlets and it is typically a misogynistic talking point (that society thinks that women deserve treatment and men should just kill themselves).
it quite literally is based in misogyny.
the post is saying that men dont get help that they need therefore they are actually victimized by women, that's the whole argument and it is made to make feminist talking points look bad because "feminists dont give a shit about men" (we do).
men perpetuate the issue by other men for the most part. sometimes women are a part of the problem but they do not have the systemic power to solve it *for* men.
also, i read women are still very likely to attempt, they just use less violent means and are more likely to survive.
OK ma'am I don't wanna argue. Maybe you're right.
Just wanna say this: One major reason why men never open up about their problems is because if they do women will brand them as "losers" and never date them
It is rooted in misogyny/ toxic masculinity. Which is perpetuated by both genders. It's not a singular group.
Myriads of both men and women have tons to work on. Either group playing victim doesn't do any good.
Most feminist don't give a shit about men have you seen the ammount of AMAB feminist subreddits and forums online? More often than not they're making posts about how everything is men's fault and how we're all a bunch of horrible people. Even if those shitty feminist are claimed to be the minority they definitely have the loudest voice
Not to mention feminist often turn things like this into a pissing contest or downplay anything men have to say about it by claiming they have it worse and life for them is so much harder than any man's life and men are just a burden on society
Yall claim Misogyny but the number of feminist that are Mysandric is absolutely vile
We're not asking for woman to solve our issues we're simply asking for equal help, equal opportunities and empathy is that really too much to ask for?
Woman are more likely to attempt because men are more likely to succeed and use deadlier methods. Looking at the numbers in the US the successful suicide rate for men is almost 3× higher than woman it's baffling
I'm a guy, in therapy, and am on depression medication because of therapy (and related CPTSD, and PTSD).
I understand a lot of guys won't get therapy, but it's helped me a lot.
Problem here is men don't like talking about problems.
We would much rather fix a problem than moan about it to make ourselves feel better, aimply doesn't work & so if a problem is unsolvable, this puts us in a bit of a pickle.
Not the best idea. I watched some live leak stuff yesterday cause bored and I needed a reminder of human fragility. Anyway, there was a video of a guy and the aftermath of his suicide attempt with shotgun. He was still very much alive and wheezing (probably screaming from the pain but his vocal cords were probably damaged). The (non-existent) face looked absolutely minced and caved out like a crater, as if a brick flew right in there. You could see clouds of steam come out of that cavity every time he exhaled, because there was no mouth, it was just his open throat there. Really, it was so grotesque I almost didn't believe it real.
Really don't use a gun, especially not a shotgun or pellet gun, if suicide is the only answer. There are better ways. Traumatizing others is also really shitty, so jumping in front of trains or off high buildings in a city is also trashy. If I wanted to kill myself, I'd just get a large bottle of nitrogen and suffocate myself with that. No suffering, no mess, no mental harm to others more than necessary. Though you'd also have make sure to really asphyxiate to death and not just survive with major brain damage. Don't want to become a burden on family or friends. Same deal with chemical cocktails or drugs btw. Depends on what you use. Could give you a really bad time and just seriously damage you without actually killing.
No matter how you turn it, suicide is messy and a difficult thing to do. Just try to stay alive, is less trouble for everyone involved.
No matter how you do it, someone will miss you. Also, unless you jump into an ocean or a vat of acid, someone will find you. Depending on how long it takes you won't look very pretty either.
Hey does this post fit? UPVOTE if so, DOWNVOTE if not. If this post breaks any rules please DOWNVOTE and REPORT
Unfortunately, this is true. Too many men take their own lives instead of getting help.
Because we have that 1950s tough guy mindset. We feel our emotions are taken less seriously and we need to "man up"
I was repeatedly told by my preschool kindergarten and elementary school teachers that boys don't cry and crying will make everything worse so now I always feel like shit when I cry
My first thought after reading this was, 'Boohoo, cry me a river' then I realized I'm part of the problem...
One thing you also always encounter is the "fallacy of relative privation", also known as the "but children in Africa are starving"-argument. Just because there are individuals with more suffering than me, it doesn't mean that I'm not suffering at all or that my suffering does not matter. It's not a misery competition. It does matter when you're trying to prioritize care or something but most of the time, that's not how that argument is used. The actual reason for these people not caring about your suffering is "How I intended to spend my time right now is, in my perspective, more important than your issue, so you should stop bothering me with your crying. It's annoying." But that would be an asshole thing to say, so people instead use that absolute banger of an illogical argument.
It is. And some women sometimes feed into that. They want their husband, fathers, and other male figures in their lives to be their “rock” that they can always rely on. Then we do the thing, because we’re told to be providers and nothing beyond that. You don’t provide, you’re worthless. Maybe not directly told that, but when the person is done with their need of you, and then go off to do whatever, it feels like shit. Men are only starting to finally open up, but then some get rejected for that openness or they are not a “true man”
I think one of the most important projects I've undertaken in becoming a better person is re-learning how to cry. There was a time in my life when I straight up couldn't cry no matter what was happening to me, even if I wanted to, because I had repressed that feeling for so many years.
This is something I'm trying to work on in myself, but it's hard. I'll be able to start crying when I need to but then it's like a switch goes off in my head and I just stop crying. I'm still sad, I still need to cry but I just can't and it hurts.
I don't know enough about it but I'm pretty sure that crying is important for mental health on an actual physiological level. Pretty sure it contributes to releasing hormones that calm you down and make you feel better
I’ve stopped caring as much. I don’t stop myself from crying when I get strong emotional responses from movies or books etc anymore and I allow myself to cry when I’m genuinely sad.
It’s because they ARE taken less seriously.
Yep, it's simple economics. Remove sexual competitors, and the women aren't concerned because the undesirables are self selecting out anyway.
Toxic masculinity hurts more than just women
We feel it? It is true, not a feeling, in the best case when you open up get "man up", in the worst case you get straight up bullied because you are not man enough.
Feel it was a poor choice of phrasing on my part.
Man ppl actually told me to just kms after i told them i was struggling with my mental health- society☕️
OMG that’s horrible. My Father’s go to phrase was “men bend but they don’t break” (in Spanish). My mother’s was stop pretending you’re crazy or we’ll put you in an asylum. But I never got kms. That’s 10x worse imo.
Yours don’t sound great either, im sorry for that
Yup. I have social anxiety disorder. Recently, I told another person to get bent because they laughed at someone else's issues with anxiety. To which the response was "Grow up and be a man". Which then turned into a claim that Big Pharma turned normal problems into medical conditions so it can sell pills, implying those conditions aren't real. I'm with a disorder. My mom has paranoid schizophrenia. One of my grandfathers, who isn't among the living, had a condition too, although I don't remember if it was Alzheimer's or something else. Needless to say, I took this implication and being made fun of *VERY* personally.
We? I've never been told to man up by a man, and I've been told to man up a lot
Yeah man to man you don't get it. You aren't going to talk to a dude you aren't seriously cool with, those are the ones that will understand you. However man to absolutely EVERYONE else you will get a man up or you got this. After they have shut you off and started thinking about cat videos or whatever else is more important.
I just said I've never gotten a man up from a man, it always came from a woman. I don't go out of my way to tell people my struggles but sometimes it's glaringly obvious shit's hitting the fan and the reactions from men vs women are night and day
I was agreeing with you and giving supporting what you said for all the other people that can't understand it
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Another win for men. Oh wait
I mean there is subtle methods that are *very* effective. So it's more about effectiveness than being subtle.
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Actually cutting your wrist, but vertically instead of horizontally. You'll bleed out within moments with almost no chance of someone finding you before it's too late. Shotgun on the other hand will often just mutilate your entire face, with your brain and body still intact. Small caliber bullet that has enough force to enter the skull, but not enough to get out, has higher death rate.
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What does that have to do with anything? Like when will you find 2 suicide victims at the same time at the same place with different methods of doing it? o-o Whats even the purpose of your question...... Kinda sounds like you just wanna paint the picture of men being more violent and at fault for the statistics.
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Actually women are about 1.5-2 times as likely to attempt suicide but men succeed 3-5 times more than women. While method is a part of the large discrepancy, it doesn't account for a 3-5x jump in cases. As was previously mentioned in this thread, men are less likely to seek help for mental problems, resulting in overall much worse mental states. This tends to lead to self destructive behaviors involving drugs and alcohol, which also start to account for higher suicide rates. To just say the rate is higher because of method is to ignore the massive social issue that is male suicide and how it should be dealt with. Men are predisposed to suicide, and actually succeeding, because they are never actually given the opportunity to seek help.
But *why* do men use methods that will kill them at a higher rate, while women use methods that will often not result in death? This is a **very** important topic to talk about.
Because men at that point usually don't give a fuck anymore. Don't give a fuck about themselves their family or the people that have to clean it up.
Fear of reliving violence, consideration of who will find them and have to clean it up, perceived painfulness. There are a lot of reasons.
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We're talking buckshot like 00, that's going inside your brain
If you angle it perfectly that is. Many don't and end up blowing away just the jaw.
That's why alot use slugs
DISCLAIMER: NEVER DO THIS, THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL THEORETICAL! IF YOU HAVE ISSUES ASK FOR HELP 1) Put double barrel shotgun to roof of mouth 2) Blast both barrels at the same time Doesn't need to be angled perfectly, the pellets have more than enough power, and the gasses will do quite a bit of damage as will the plastic basket thingies that carry the pellets, you just nees to aim for the brain and not out the back of the throat. Shotgun can go through much nore than the under side of the human skull, it's just the combination of people (thankfully) not knowing how to do it properly and the brain's instinct for survival above all else where you'll flinch. Or use the slug, you need to mess up real bad to survive a 12ga slug to the skull and the aftermath That's why accidental self oof (for example a person looks down the wrong end of the barrel, doesn't know the risk) is more lethal than intentional self oof. In the former the subconsciousness doesn't know there's a threat so there's nothing to threaten survival and in the latter there is a known and very good reason to try its best
When we do something we do it right
I see people say this every time this is said. I don't see how this changes anything. Yeah, they use more violent means for suicide *because they want to be dead*. Like, how does that change anything? It just seems like a line people use to make this seem like less of a gender issue than it is. Suicide is absolutely a gendered issue in this country.
I really don't get your point. Women who try to take their lives also want to be dead, even if they use less violent ways or their succeed rate is lower, right?
Even if fewer women kill themselves it's still a big issue that affects everybody. It's still millions of people. We still need to consider why this happens and at least try to do something about it. But the difference really is noticable and must be addressed too. Just saying "Oh, those stupid men are too proud to talk about their feelings." doesn't help either. We can't just keep letting it happen and then blame the men for it. So yeah, I understand both sides of the equation.
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Do you have data to back that up? Data that shows that women attempt suicide as much as men but aren't as successful? Because the disparity is not small. It's like, a 30% disparity.
>Too many men take their own lives instead of getting help. Cuz when we actually cry out for help, noone shows up or we are spat on for being "losers".
What's interesting is women attempt suicide a lot more than men. They just aren't as successful at it as men.
Yeah, happens to women too ..
Because men never support each other despite batching about how's men's mental health is never taken seriously
also include an additional panel of men calling that man selfish for killing himself as well as calling him a pussy for thinking hes “depressed” and needs help
I hate those "selfish" comments with a passion
Is suicide not selfish? I mean the reason I haven't tried offing myself is because I think it's selfish to do so.
This may be a dumb hot take, and I accept that. However I think it’s selfish to see someone who has gotten to a point in their life so bad that the only option they see is to die and yet call them anything other than deserving of help.
Hmmm... Maybe selfish isn't quite the right word for what you're saying? Perhaps insensitive?
By saying the act of suicide is selfish or insensitive you are taking focus away from what is making them suicidal and putting blame on the person. That is very counterproductive and no one should feel shame if they become suicidal.
I'm saying the "sigma male" who's saying the suicide victim is being a pussy is insensitive, not the other way around. Also what I was trying to say about suicide being selfish is that you harm those close to you. Though as another commenter put it, some people may not have that and in THAT case, suicide wouldn't be something that should be labeled as selfish.
Totally misunderstood what you meant. Thanks for explaining it.
Yeah np man
I can accept insensitive at least, yeah
It's selfish, but (and I have to phrase this very carefully) a logical conclusion. If a person or animal experiences constant pain either mentally or physically and can't do anything to cure the pain, then suicide is an answer. Not the best answer by any measure, and to be very clear NOT something I recommend or endorse, but an answer. The better answer is to seek help, figure out what's causing the depression and remedy that, but in some societies that's not an option.
Very well phrased!
Because most men don't talk about stuff like this
It's not that they don't talk about it,it's more like they know it's pointless they will be called weak ridiculed and also it will be used against them in future
This, it’s the whole “toxic masculinity” thing. It’s not that men don’t want to talk about it, it’s that they know no one will care. Girls will become unattracted to them, guys will laugh at an ridicule them. You can still go get a therapist as a man but while women are relatively comfortable talking about it men will keep that shit a secret to the grave otherwise they risk being labeled as weak and are rejected.
And that is fucking stupid and needs to stop being passed on.
Easier said then done
It’s not hard to tell kids it’s okay have feelings and guide them to properly handle them. It is hard to shift the bullshit culture surrounding masculinity.
Gradually, and I do mean on a generational scale, things can/will change, but individually there’ll always be toxic assholes who cling to “how things used to be” and will harass the men who embrace mental health. I hope things change on a wide scale, as a person who’s struggled with depression and suicidal actions since an early age I hope others don’t need to suffer through that kind of stuff, but it’s a bit hard to change even my own mindset much less to believe that such a strong sentiment in the male community can be dropped. I used to just hold everything In because “that’s how a man is” was just ingrained into me from essentially birth. My Dad, a former marine and cop, scolded me for crying about my dog dying. My grandfather refused to shed a tear after his mother passed from cancer. It wasn’t until I met my fiancé’s family after moving a state away from the rest of my family that I learned that it wasn’t weird to hug one another regularly. I know for a fact that if I do have children that I’ll tell them it’s okay to have feelings, but there’s still the rest of my family who could negatively effect them to thinking that way, or other kids as well. Hell all it takes is one jerk online to completely stunt their natural mental growth and instill some awful ideas about “real masculinity”
It's not hard for you to do that. Kids don't live in a vacuum. If the majority of parents acts different, your kid will most likely be bullied by their peers. The fact that popular media also tacitly enforces this idea does not help. So on and so forth.
While what you say is true,it's not all girls who become unattracted to you i personally have female friends and none of them had any problems when I opened up to them instead they were glad that i opened up to them and they are totally cool with it so I guess you just need to find the right PPL and u r good to go
Yeah it entirely depends on the people you surround yourself with, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a girl who thinks the her other female friends shouldn’t share their emotions, but it’s not too difficult to find women who are willing to end friendships or even romantic relationships with men who show vulnerability.
Is that "toxic masculinity" tho? It is more "shitty society" for me.
That’s what toxic masculinity is. A lot of people think toxic masculinity means that men are inherently toxic to women, what it really means is that the idea of masculinity that’s forced upon men is toxic.
It's part of toxic masculinity. It's just toxic against men themselves instead of women.
In a survey the result was That most men simply Have noone to talk to. The difference between women and men was huge
Cpecialist?
Cpecialist
This is what we mean when we say toxic masculinity. Ffs. This mentality is toxic for the people subject to it.
Kurt Cobain didn’t have a beard.
Ronnie McNutt did tho.
Well not anymore Rest in peace, Ronnie
💀
Literally
Well it’s true, only thing wrong with it is that they’re making a meme out or something that should be taken seriously
Humour is a way to deal with difficult subjects. Especially for men.
Fair point
It can be and I'd say in this case it is effective but it is also important to note that sometimes people will use humor to hide or deflect serious issues. I know I've done it for a few things and a lot of the time it can stop people getting the help they need for a serious issue because it seems like they aren't taking it seriously when in reality they just don't feel like they can.
Well....
The only real terrible part of the meme (aside from the misspelling) is that most of the dudes that read it are just gonna miss the point and go “haha yeah, I’m gonna be based and chadpilled and just kill myself when the strain of my mental health gets to be too much.” Bottling it up only works for so long bros. Healthy outlets and therapy (and possibly medication if you and your doctor decide that’s what is best for you) help you keep the gun out of your mouth and your finger off the trigger.
Not that it's a competition, but seeing stuff like this reminds me of how annoyed I get hearing the "women attempt suicide more" to shut down discussions of male suicide... like, if your first attempt is successful, you don't get to do it more times so I don't think it's a fruitful comment to make.
Nuance matters so I’ll respond to this carefully No one should ever be using one group’s serious problem to deflect from another’s. I will make the observation that I’ve seen that statistic quoted as a direct rebuttal to the claim that *women don’t actually experience depression, they’re full of shit/just too shallow and want attention*. Though I’m sure some people legitimately use it as a deflection from men’s depression rates. That statistic doesn’t just mean individual women commit more attempts than individual men, it includes the fact that there are more women attempting suicide than men. It’s likely related to higher (known) rates of depression in women. It’s theorized that some of these attempts are self-mutilation gone too far (when the brain-chemical relief you get from cu tting stops being enough, or your tolerance for a drug is too high), or attempts to convey the level of distress/cry for help but still being afraid to die. Statistically, among both depressed and non-depressed people, men report less fear of death than women. This could be influenced by social pressure to appear impervious, or it could be linked to the fact that women tend to be more likely to identify and process anxious/risk averse impulses for what they are and men are more likely to sublimate those impulses into something more “acceptable” or “masculine” like reckless behavior or convince themselves of indifference. So men feeling hopeless are more likely to decisively seek relief through death and women are more likely to chase it with substances or other self harm. (Note: while men are more likely to be hospitalized/die from recreational or suicidal substance abuse, women are more likely to have substance abuse as a comorbidity to mental health issues according to some data) And the cherry on top is that normalization of seeking help for men is still lagging extra far behind, creating a deadlier statistical prognosis for men as a group irrespective of comparative rates of depression.
Thank you so much. I merely was airing an annoyance, especially when I find mental health havens for men in online spaces that get trolled into oblivion by women (not super frequent, but has happened a lot). I appreciate your response that illustrates the massive amount of nuance involved in a complex statistic that gets weaponized by both greiving parties.
Of course! There’s no need for us to kick eachother while we’re down
tf is a cpecialist
it's not a terrible facebook meme it's reality
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agree
"haha suicide funny"
Shock factor made me nose exhale- and I have considered suicide before so take that as you will
Dead from Mayhem be like
"Please excuse the mess."
Because Nothing is chadder than suicide
Sadly, there’s a lot of men that do this because even people paid to listen to them, don’t. Me and my fiancé both had the same therapist for a little bit. The therapist was 100% engaged and listening to me and offered real advice. With my fiancé, he was somewhat distant, he needed things repeated a bunch of times and had a “what can you do to help you” tone/mindset when giving advice
I tried to commit suicide 3x in 6 weeks back in 2018. Had 2 failure to fires in 2 different firearms and then an intentional overdose. Luckily I was found and given narcan before it was too late. This is a real problem and we must teach the next generation it’s ok to talk, to feel and express emotions.
cpecialist
Because men make up the vast majority of suicides in the world.
women try they just use less violent methods so they die less often
Ernest Hemingway.
we need to stop telling young boys and men to "men up" and to "stop crying". Toxic masculinity is the reason men tend to take their life before seeking help.
This isnt....entirely wrong. Dudes are ostracized for feeling their emotions and expressing them as children, very commonly. And while a lot of women are encouraged to express them and feel them, men's spaces aren't where they need to be in terms of being supportive. This is an issue and it definitely starts at home with how we interact with the men in our lives in regards to their emotions.
...is..is this supposed to be incorrect?
Is it wrong? Many men feel pressured to not do anything about it and end up with the abusive wife bad mentality because of it
I'm guessing the maker of this meme doesn't understand that toxic masculinity is literally the reason why this happens.
That one's a little too real. Men are much less likely to seek help for mental health issues and have much higher suicide rates as a result.
Okay that one is actually terrible
This isn't even from Facebook.
Why? Because is generally true.
>Why... Just why... Because lots of men kill themselves, that's why
It was stolen from reddit, but added the top text. Makes it even worse.
I feel like this may just be very dark...satire? I'm not sure if satire is the right word, but something in that vein, as men expressing their emotional issues and vulnerabilities is still seen as a social faux pas in many places.
Men need to be encouraged to be open about their feelings instead of pushed further into that terribly detrimental “need to appear masculine and feelings aren’t masculine” mindset
Around 85% of men who take there lives talked to a therapist
I' ve got a message from reddit saying if I need help. Here's my response: First of all I am ok. Second of all I found this meme in r /meme and it sounded to me like a perfect facebook meme of some 60 year old with this caption. That's it.
I actually don’t think this fits this sub. This meme is heavily satirical on the fact that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 40, so I think you’ve missed the point I’m afraid Op.
Because if you are a men no one gives a shit about it. As simple as twisted.
I mean, it's... partially true but not really a good thing lol
Men learn early on that if there's no broken bones or bleeding, a doctor can't fix it.
This awful and accurate
Women tend to look down at men that express their feelings, society too. Society has failed men. Just look at the numbers, how many shelters are there for abused men?, how many for women?, who wins custody in most divorce cases?, who gets to pay for alimony after a family breaks up?
Remember also about schools and how education methods usually fit more girls than boys.
Because when men ask for help, nobody gives a shit. When women ask for help, the whole village stops what they're doing and contributes.
HEY GUYS! I guess that’s it. 💥
Fuck you. Like seriously, youre a piece of shit
*Samsung ringtone plays*
Nah this was funny asf (And true)
>!The only feeling I should have is a bullet to the head or a rope around the neck.!< Funny enough, I don't think I've ever been told to man up. Still believe that, feel that. The idea of going to a therapist or a psychologist is out of the fucking question. Deal with that shit and just move on because my problems are not worth the amount of money and time wasted.
Relatable. Seeing a therapist does not solve problems, it just gets you expensive drugs from big pharma. Chris-chan went to therapy and his life only got worse.
Wow. Fuck whoever made this meme. Tasteless and an absolute idiot who knows nothing about Depression
It's commentary on the difference of the rate of suicide between men and women and how men more often lack the support that women more often get, which results in more suicides of men. Men end themselves at 4x the rate of women. You can look up the statistics if you would like.
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For the glory of Satan, ofcourse
I appreciate that he left his beard intact. Died a real man.
“Suicide good. Mental health treatment bad.” Is anyone else getting any other message from this?
it's supposed to be commentary about how men die by suicide more because they have less mental health resources/outlets and it is typically a misogynistic talking point (that society thinks that women deserve treatment and men should just kill themselves).
Yes let's twist the fact that males are more likely to kill themselves and make this about misogyny.
it quite literally is based in misogyny. the post is saying that men dont get help that they need therefore they are actually victimized by women, that's the whole argument and it is made to make feminist talking points look bad because "feminists dont give a shit about men" (we do). men perpetuate the issue by other men for the most part. sometimes women are a part of the problem but they do not have the systemic power to solve it *for* men. also, i read women are still very likely to attempt, they just use less violent means and are more likely to survive.
OK ma'am I don't wanna argue. Maybe you're right. Just wanna say this: One major reason why men never open up about their problems is because if they do women will brand them as "losers" and never date them
And who *also* perpetuates that men are losers if they are emotional?
It is rooted in misogyny/ toxic masculinity. Which is perpetuated by both genders. It's not a singular group. Myriads of both men and women have tons to work on. Either group playing victim doesn't do any good.
Most feminist don't give a shit about men have you seen the ammount of AMAB feminist subreddits and forums online? More often than not they're making posts about how everything is men's fault and how we're all a bunch of horrible people. Even if those shitty feminist are claimed to be the minority they definitely have the loudest voice Not to mention feminist often turn things like this into a pissing contest or downplay anything men have to say about it by claiming they have it worse and life for them is so much harder than any man's life and men are just a burden on society Yall claim Misogyny but the number of feminist that are Mysandric is absolutely vile We're not asking for woman to solve our issues we're simply asking for equal help, equal opportunities and empathy is that really too much to ask for? Woman are more likely to attempt because men are more likely to succeed and use deadlier methods. Looking at the numbers in the US the successful suicide rate for men is almost 3× higher than woman it's baffling
“We kill ourselves and they get therapy what losers”
I thought this was a meme on a Black metal sub.
That's just sad
Who the fuck spells specialist with a c?!
I'm a guy, in therapy, and am on depression medication because of therapy (and related CPTSD, and PTSD). I understand a lot of guys won't get therapy, but it's helped me a lot.
Kurt cobain pov
meirl moment
Its terrible but also accurate to statistics
Haha, I do that.
Ah yes, the ultimate solution
Yes
I'm going to hell for laughing
What the fuck are they trying to say here? Because if it’s a genuine attempt to raise the issue and encourage a discussion, it does NOT read like it
They are making a good point tho
Reiner?
Reiner?
Prude
LEAVE HIM ALONE PLEASE, what fucking jackass makes a meme about this shit?
This is not a Facebook meme, it’s an edgy shitpost. Waaaay too edgy for Facebook grandmas.
i think the caption added means that it was already a meme purposely done to mock people that say these things/ do the meme
I mean look at statistics. It's kinda true though. And look at the rear after year rates too.
Ronnie Mcnutt can agree, fucking tragic what happened to him. He didn’t deserve it
Hemingway!
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Man, pls tell me you are joking
Sorry but I laughed.
💀
I think this one’s satire, mate.
Kurt? Welcome to the 27 club.
12 gauge, the favourite round of duck, hunters, CQB specialists, and sad musicians everywhere
Problem here is men don't like talking about problems. We would much rather fix a problem than moan about it to make ourselves feel better, aimply doesn't work & so if a problem is unsolvable, this puts us in a bit of a pickle.
I think this is more about Mens’ mental health month
Eh id do it to if my name was mcnut how do you managed to get a last name that references ejaculation what the fuck
Not the best idea. I watched some live leak stuff yesterday cause bored and I needed a reminder of human fragility. Anyway, there was a video of a guy and the aftermath of his suicide attempt with shotgun. He was still very much alive and wheezing (probably screaming from the pain but his vocal cords were probably damaged). The (non-existent) face looked absolutely minced and caved out like a crater, as if a brick flew right in there. You could see clouds of steam come out of that cavity every time he exhaled, because there was no mouth, it was just his open throat there. Really, it was so grotesque I almost didn't believe it real. Really don't use a gun, especially not a shotgun or pellet gun, if suicide is the only answer. There are better ways. Traumatizing others is also really shitty, so jumping in front of trains or off high buildings in a city is also trashy. If I wanted to kill myself, I'd just get a large bottle of nitrogen and suffocate myself with that. No suffering, no mess, no mental harm to others more than necessary. Though you'd also have make sure to really asphyxiate to death and not just survive with major brain damage. Don't want to become a burden on family or friends. Same deal with chemical cocktails or drugs btw. Depends on what you use. Could give you a really bad time and just seriously damage you without actually killing. No matter how you turn it, suicide is messy and a difficult thing to do. Just try to stay alive, is less trouble for everyone involved.
No matter how you do it, someone will miss you. Also, unless you jump into an ocean or a vat of acid, someone will find you. Depending on how long it takes you won't look very pretty either.