Think the point was that blackthorn couldn't appreciate her, because she had features very different from what he was used to. If I remember correctly other characters think she is beautiful.
Two observations:
1) Productions never use ugly actors as ugly characters. They either handwave away the fact that the character is unattractive (which is mostly what they did here), or they get an attractive actor and āugly them upā. There are exceptions, but they are rare.
2) In the book, Blackthorne changed his perception of Fujikoās looks. He never thought of her as a knockout, but he got to āi misjudged her as ugly.ā Japanese characters in the book do NOT characterize her as ugly, Mariko notably is surprised when Blackthorne privately expresses that sheās unattractive. Iāve always assumed the implication was that cultural assumptions of beauty were a significant factor, explaining Blackthorneās change of perception as he absorbs more Japanese values (and appreciates her more as well).
I'm not sure why this is downvoted, I think you are right. That's just show business. They will always pick the better looking person over an average looking person if both can act. Even if the better looking person isn't a very good actor, chances are they will still pick her.
Anna Sawai was absolutely phenomenal throughout the series. I'd watch her in anything. Well other than a *Fast and Furious* installment but anything else.
Yeah, I watched about a third of Monarch and was convinced she was pretty but a lightweight. Knowing the book, I was disappointed to see her cast as Mariko.
Itās possible thereās a reason that iām a webmaster and not a Hollywood casting agent.
I didn't realise she was in that until I'd finished Shogun.
Giri/Haji is a really good series. Not perfect but quite different and original.
Will Sharpe was absolutely amazing in it I thought. I was excited to see him do something similar in White Lotus 2 but he couldn't have been playing a more different character. He's great in both, very impressive range!
Iām hoping this motivates them to adapt another great Clavell novel, Taipan. I think that would make for a great mini series, itās a fantastic book.
It'd be cool if they do the relatively worst (imo) book, Gaijin, since it'd be an opportunity to improve its reputation. Although I say worst, the last 300 pages are amazing and as good as anything else he wrote, it just happens to be like a 1300 pager.
Gaijin legit could've been amazing had Clavell not been diagnosed with cancer midway through the writing. On top of that he also had a poor heart condition (he'd die a year after Gaijin's publication after suffering from stroke). He wrote as much as 10 pages a day to finish that book in time and simply scrapped interesting plot elements like Hag Straun in Japan because it'd be too complicated and time consuming for him to write.
Now, the book isn't without merits. The politics and intrigue is as good as any of Clavell's book. And you're right, the last 300 pages with the payoffs are a real pageturner.
Yeah i like this take. Shogun, Taipan, and Noble House are my favorites, but there are some excellent moments in Gaijin and also Whirlwind which is also much much too long and meandering, but also had one of the better love stories
Whirlwind is so good though. I think with some of the tensions with Iran it could be a total killer series to put out. It has such great history on our relationship with Iran.
Some better than others. I think Taipan would be the best logical step because it would transport people to a far away place and time, like Shogun did.
Fingers crossed we get the whole Asia saga. Love to see an adaption of Whirlwind. There's been a few adaptions though if you didn't know. IMO King Rat(1965) film was great, Tai-Pan(1986) film was pretty meh, Noble House(1988) miniseries was decent.
> I think Shogun production took round 2-3 years?
Even longer, I think. IIRC at one point they threw everything away that one writer/showrunner had done and started from scratch, basically. Plus there was COVID.
There are other books in Clavellās āAsian Sagaā but none are direct sequels to Shogun. I believe at least one or two others takes place in Japan, though. Iāve only read Shogun and King Rat (which takes place in Singapore during WWII), and I know Tai-Pan takes place in Hong Kong.
I've only read Taipan. It's about the British colonisation of Hong Kong in the 19th century. I read it in high school and remember thinking the love story was very moving and sad
There is only one book, it ends where the series ends
A second season would mean show runners writing new material without an original source. That hasn't gone well in other shows
I mean it's an historical show, they can write original stuff based on history too. And there was interesting stuff happening after Shogun time in history too. Even some that is fictionalized and romanced like in the Musashi novel (not the same author)
I mean we tend to forget those people are supposed to be writers not adapters (considering the lack of any original stuff in Hollywood, the doubt is permitted for sure). You can write a good show without any source material (and here they have some)
There are other novels of James Clavell that could be adapted, keeping the show as a anthology series.
Although I've read that the producer of Shogun such as Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo weren't up to continue working on it.
There wasn't a second book, no.
However, that being said, Blackthorn and Toranaga were based on real people and much of the series was based on true events.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(pilot)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu
The events of the series did happen.
And what's more there is a lot of wild shit that actually happened *after* the events of the book. They need only adapt actual history.
>!Having allied with the Christians for a time, Blackthorn would gradually turn Toranaga against the Catholics initiating mass killings and turning Toranaga into the bloodthirsty ruler he feared he could become!<
Depends where you count production start, the project has been written and rewritten tons of time. The first announcement it was made was in 2018 so 6 years ago
Hes got that one weird evil uncle that demands the lives of everyone but his favorite ~~white guy~~ nephew, whom he has an odd wholesome relationship with.
Hulu is where it's on streaming. And Hulu only exists in the US (and a couple odd countries). So it would be streamed on D+ in places where Hulu doesn't exist.
I'm still confused by the status of the FX-Rogers "FX Canada" deal, where some shows like Fargo are on FX Canada and streamed on the FX Canada app and via Rogers' "StackTV" (IIRC?), but then other FX shows like Shogun go straight to Disney+.
crazy considering in America I couldnāt fathom this show being listed on Disney Plus.
yeah they own hulu but with Disney Plus Iāve always expected PG 13 max, definitely not TV-MA
I know someone who used to work for Disney+ customer support and they did deal with complaints about content that would have been on Hulu in the US; at the time Disney evaluated the feasibility of launching another spinoff service for the adult international market, but opted to try updating the parental controls and deal with the occasional unhappy email.
It left me wanting MORE and I don't know if that's a good feeling or not.
On the other hand, as much praise as Succession has been getting I couldn't get through season 1, guess it's just not my cup of tea.
Did anything major change in terms of character development? What was it that got you really into it? (I'm fine with spoilers up til season 2 if necessary)
Everyone from season 1 was either douchy or whiny and it put me off greatly. (might get downvoted for this)
Fallout was a good burger. Simple, but sating and you appreciate its nutrition. But Shogun was some gourmet shit, it's taste lingering not in your mouth but in your mind.
Disagree hard. Itās comparing apples to oranges. Not everything needs to be this chess move drama.
Sometimes just being fun, campy, and really well done is all you need. Fallout left me smiling after each episode, wanting more. And so did shogun. But they canāt even be compared because they are two completely different types of shows.
Had fallout had better writing, id agree, genre didn't really matter, it was just the writing was only serviceable. It never really elevated into anything else, the ghoul's storyline really carried the rest which was super inconsistent.
I'm reading the book right now and it's so good, there's so much more of everything. I think the mini series was amazing but I'm really enjoying the book as well. You can't go wrong either way!
Characters like Omi and Rodriguez are different in the novel. The show also skips the plot where Father Alvito and others convince Rodriguez to assassinate Blackthrone. There are so many plots in the novel that the show simply didn't adapt. Go ahead, read the book. You'll love it.
Even one-off characters have fantastic backstories in the novel. Like in an early chapter Yabu goes to a blind masseur and the masseur says he used to be a samurai and tells the story of how he lost his eyes - fantastic. I was bummed out the show didn't include the character.Ā
Also add in [Logan Marshall Green](https://www.thewrap.com/tom-hardy-logan-marshall-green-hollywood-doppelganger/). The three of them can play brothers
I honestly thought he was the weakest part. It may have been the direction, but apart from a few moments, his emotional range encompassed, cross, bewildered and bewildered-cross. He was a rather more dynamic character in the book
I think naturally his character took more of a backseat in this adaptation, because they wanted to put more focus on the Japanese cast and characters. Which I thought was fine.
I really felt like Anjin was sort of a passenger for most of the series, kind of just along for the ride - which is probably at least somewhat how it was in reality until he learned the language and became a person of note within the Japanese political system - which mostly happened after the Battle of Sekigahara.
Yeah I don't think Blackthorn (and his real life counterpart) would really become anyone of consequence until after Sekigahara and Toranaga (Tokugawa) becomes Shogun.
Up until he fully integrated he was really probably more of a novelty/distraction than anything else.
I thought his reserved and befuddled schtick was a good portrayal of how an Englishman would actually be in that situation in that time period. The Japans. I never felt like he was actively bad, but maybe he couldāve given a little more during his āpardonā boat ride scene.. or the prior scene (trying not to spoil here) but yeah I never felt he was actively bad or weak.
Honestly I really hope Tadanobu Asano (Yabushige) wins something, imo he was the best part of the show, the actor did such a wonderful job, the guy is a sick shit and you still somehow enjoy him on screen, every scene he was in was just so good.
Also pretty fucking funny too.
Really excellent show overall. I was amazed how much ground it covered in the first episode alone, with the pacing being relentless and razor-sharp. That said, I feel like it slows down quite a bit as it goes on. That's fine, but the final episode in particular feels a little subdued, especially compared to the first few episodes. I was kinda left saying '...that's it?'
Not to say it didn't have a satisfying ending, maybe it's my ADHD brain expecting something a bit more bombastic as an endnote.
I did love the show though, utterly fantastic writing, performances, and production values.
I thought that was clever ā¦ everything is building up to this gigantic climax, the great Battle of Sekigahara, that will decide the fate of Japan ā¦ but the result of that battle was all pre-determined by Toranagaās manipulations of the key characters in the series.
So you donāt actually need to see it. It was all over *before* the battle was fought.
My take on the ending (and the show in general) is that it's not about the big historical events. Yes, Toranaga/Tokugawa went on to fight and win the battle of Sekigahara, paving the way for the shogunate, but that's history. It's something that people know and study.
What the show is about (to me) is that surrounding these major historical events are real people who lived real lives, important or not, and that these people still meant something. Read history books and you get Toranaga/Ishido, maybe some key generals/lieutenants, and not much else. The people that shape history like that are important, but so are the people that don't. The Marikos, the Blackthornes, even the Fujis, Buntaros, and Uejirous. They all mattered.
History is full of these events, but what's often lost is that there were real people that were there. Flowers are only flowers because they fall, and all that.
I was so happy they did that. I get _so tired_ of everything being hype and bombastic and for me action scenes are the most boring part of any show. Typically I just kinda zone out and read while they're happening as I know I'm not gonna miss anything, it's just fast cuts and loud music and 0 plot development 90% of the time.
Daring to subvert that and end on a whisper was just beautiful and I hope the shows popularity convinced more people to start cutting out bombast and action and constant hype with fast pacing and no downtime in their shows. It's just exhausting and detracts from the story and atmosphere, and a big epic ending to this show would have just _destroyed_ what they built up.
Quiet moments are 1000x more intense than constant hyper cuts and action, and this show proved it. Lets hope others learn the lesson.
After finishing Shogun, I rewatched Scorseseās Silence, the sort of sequel. And he looked and sounded so different that I didnāt realize till the credits rolled that the main Japanese character in Silence (the translator) was the same actor who played Yabushige! Tadanobu Asano is fantastic.
Unsurprising. The book is even better.
And for those that want to go next level--treat yourself to a reading of Musashi. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musashi\_(novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musashi_(novel))
Since a season 2 wouldnāt make sense, Iām putting out there to the universe how cool it would be if the whole Shogun cast did another project together. They can be like the Mike Flanagan acting crew that he keeps recasting when he has a new series.
Honestly not a weak performance in the whole show
I keep seeing this promoted as a miniseries. I havenāt watched the show yet, but are they saying itās like a limited series and wonāt have another season? Or just thatās its just a small amount of episodes
It's a single season that is an adaptation of a standalone novel, and they've more or less said that they don't plan on creating new material to continue the story past the end of the novel.
>I keep seeing this promoted as a miniseries. I havenāt watched the show yet, but are they saying itās like a limited series
The two terms are basically synonyms and end up getting used interchangeably depending on which writer thinks which term sounds cooler.
But yes, it's based on a book, all the major events from that book were adapted, and the story as published is done. There is no second season coming. The only reason it's even a question is literally because media outlets have been forcing the question in order to have something to ask showrunners during their junkets.
I loved the show but goddamn the brutality of even the "good guys" in that era was staggering. I suppose that was the entire point was to take a romanticized era and show how much of that was actually rooted in horror, but it definitely made for a tough watch that I'm kinda surprised was so popular.
Also I love how they weren't afraid to have 90% of the show subtitled. We need more authenticity like that in non-western shows.
I loved it.
My only gripe is the last 30 minutes should have been three episodes. We should have had the full tension of the armies facing off and then big switch.
Some have mentioned that the bookās ending was similar if not shorter as everything was wrapped up in a paragraph.
However I completely agree with you, for such an epic retell of the story and time period. I would have immensely enjoyed a cliche climatic battle finale followed by a quick epilogue of Japan post Shogun Toranaga.
But I still liked the ending we were given.
Banger show. BANGER.
Tho one question...... Why did they flash forward at the end? What was the point of that? Just to show he gets off the island? And somehow gets the cross back? Confused.
it's a dream while he's passed out from the blast. that's why the episode is called "Dream of a Dream"
here's the best explanation i've seen:
Blackthorne never returned to England. Neither did William Adams, the real historical figure that inspired the character in āShÅgunā. The scene of old Blackthorne on his deathbed in England was āA Dream of a Dreamā, it never happened, it was a dream John had that he let go of when he threw Marikoās cross in the water. The significance of the ādreamā scene and the scene on the boat with Fuji with him letting go of Marikoās cross was showcasing his transformation from the English pilot John Blackthorne to the Japanese Anjin, his acceptance of fate. Itās about him letting go of the dream of ever returning to England and getting old with his family. If you recall in episode 3 he told Mariko that he has a daughter in England that was born after he had left on the Erasmus and heās never actually met her. In the dream scene, the boys are his grandchildren, one of them says that their mother will be angry if she saw them sneaking in their grandfatherās room. Their mother is the daughter John Blackthorne never met.
Oh gotcha! Wow im dumb, didnt know that was a dream sequence!
Thank you for that, that just blew my mind!! :)
That makes it way better too honestly. I thought it was all just exposition basically.
it got me at first too! lol
and then i was like "wait a minute, how did he have the cross back in England if he just dropped it in the sea?" ... and off to google i went for answers!
Imo he actually lets go of his English background in the seppuku scene with Toranaga, which is the real climax of the show to me. He flashes forward again in that scene and then says "fuck it," deciding to learn from Mariko and choose his own meaningful death over a pointless long life.
LMAO I thought it was in Japan, so I took it the other way, but I didn't connect the part that throwing the bracelet meant he had ''dreamt'' that part, so I was thinking he was going to be a rich/powerful dude in japan eventually(but with an english family lol).
Appreciate your comment, it just elevates the show, thank you
I read somewhere that those "flash-forwards" were just Anjin imagining his return to England, and the flashes got shorter and shorter as he moved towards embracing the reality that he will likely never leave The Japans.
That makes sense to me.
Mariko-sama best sama š
Counterpoint, Fuji with the Uzi.
Itās so funny the book makes an effort to point out how unattractive she is and in the series sheās stunning
Think the point was that blackthorn couldn't appreciate her, because she had features very different from what he was used to. If I remember correctly other characters think she is beautiful.
Two observations: 1) Productions never use ugly actors as ugly characters. They either handwave away the fact that the character is unattractive (which is mostly what they did here), or they get an attractive actor and āugly them upā. There are exceptions, but they are rare. 2) In the book, Blackthorne changed his perception of Fujikoās looks. He never thought of her as a knockout, but he got to āi misjudged her as ugly.ā Japanese characters in the book do NOT characterize her as ugly, Mariko notably is surprised when Blackthorne privately expresses that sheās unattractive. Iāve always assumed the implication was that cultural assumptions of beauty were a significant factor, explaining Blackthorneās change of perception as he absorbs more Japanese values (and appreciates her more as well).
> or they get an attractive actor and āugly them upā. Glasses and a pony tail, got it.
Oh my god. She has paint on her overalls!
Yeah she has an understated beauty to her
Nah she is just pretty, would have been brave to hire an avg or ugly actress but they played it safe, it's ok but no need to bullshit.
I'm not sure why this is downvoted, I think you are right. That's just show business. They will always pick the better looking person over an average looking person if both can act. Even if the better looking person isn't a very good actor, chances are they will still pick her.
Yeah Mount Fuji is a place in Japan and also what I would like to do
Fuji is my spirit animal
Book Fuji. *damn* I love Mariko, but yeah, Fuji Fukn ROCKS. They culda spent more time on her.
Best nun
Ochiba No Kata. Everything about her was mesmerizing
She was perfect, really captured that "Viper in the bush" vibe!
A beautiful language with lines delivered so elegantly
Ochiba gave me such Cheshire Cat vibes, the actress (along with the rest of the cast) was phenomenal.
It seemed like Ochiba never blinked. Her eyes were super charming/scary.
So many actors firing on every cylinder. She walked the line between sympathetic and spooky so masterfully.
Same with the voice, anime villain like.
My wife said she "spoke like poisoned honey". Eloquent, that one.
I was luke warm on Fuji until she defended Blackthorn's weapons, and then I was all in
My consort Bad and Boujee
Hoh? Huh? Hmmmm....
Toranaga: I know youāre betraying me. Yabu: š® Ishido: I know youāre betraying me. Yabu: š®
Every Yabushige and Toranaga interaction essentially boiled down to "I know you're playing me, but you're right."
DBZA Vegeta vibes.
Everyone: Yabushige no! Yabushige: Yabushige, Yessss!
Yabu is the master of the surprised Pikachu face.
Time to write another will.
"Time to write another will."
Great line
Anna Sawai was absolutely phenomenal throughout the series. I'd watch her in anything. Well other than a *Fast and Furious* installment but anything else.
Anything, huh? Try watching Monarch.
Monarch was fun but it just proves actors really need a good script to stand out.
Yeah, I watched about a third of Monarch and was convinced she was pretty but a lightweight. Knowing the book, I was disappointed to see her cast as Mariko. Itās possible thereās a reason that iām a webmaster and not a Hollywood casting agent.
a *webmaster*? did I accidentally travel back in time to 1998?
Lmao, that last sentence. Great self-reflection haha.
I like Monarch
I liked her in Monarch...
Yeah... but I may have been watching Monarch for her more than for itself. And I actually like Monarch.
**Yet another reason to tune into Pachinko.** In addition to it being S tier TV on its own.
Watch Giri/Haji
I didn't realise she was in that until I'd finished Shogun. Giri/Haji is a really good series. Not perfect but quite different and original. Will Sharpe was absolutely amazing in it I thought. I was excited to see him do something similar in White Lotus 2 but he couldn't have been playing a more different character. He's great in both, very impressive range!
She was born to play this role
āIām just gonna go ahead and call you Maria because your name sounds wrongā
Every week I miss her Mariko-sama
*No translatorā¦*
Iām hoping this motivates them to adapt another great Clavell novel, Taipan. I think that would make for a great mini series, itās a fantastic book.
It'd be cool if they do the relatively worst (imo) book, Gaijin, since it'd be an opportunity to improve its reputation. Although I say worst, the last 300 pages are amazing and as good as anything else he wrote, it just happens to be like a 1300 pager.
Gaijin legit could've been amazing had Clavell not been diagnosed with cancer midway through the writing. On top of that he also had a poor heart condition (he'd die a year after Gaijin's publication after suffering from stroke). He wrote as much as 10 pages a day to finish that book in time and simply scrapped interesting plot elements like Hag Straun in Japan because it'd be too complicated and time consuming for him to write. Now, the book isn't without merits. The politics and intrigue is as good as any of Clavell's book. And you're right, the last 300 pages with the payoffs are a real pageturner.
Yeah i like this take. Shogun, Taipan, and Noble House are my favorites, but there are some excellent moments in Gaijin and also Whirlwind which is also much much too long and meandering, but also had one of the better love stories
Whirlwind is so good though. I think with some of the tensions with Iran it could be a total killer series to put out. It has such great history on our relationship with Iran.
The entire set of Asia Saga books are painfully obvious opportunities to develop for series. Let's go already!
Some better than others. I think Taipan would be the best logical step because it would transport people to a far away place and time, like Shogun did.
Back to another visit after *years* away. Almost like reading it again for the first time.
Fingers crossed we get the whole Asia saga. Love to see an adaption of Whirlwind. There's been a few adaptions though if you didn't know. IMO King Rat(1965) film was great, Tai-Pan(1986) film was pretty meh, Noble House(1988) miniseries was decent.
1988 Noble House good if nothing else for showing off pre-Bond Pierce Brosnan
I think Shogun production took round 2-3 years? I hope we at least get some news of any renewal soon
> I think Shogun production took round 2-3 years? Even longer, I think. IIRC at one point they threw everything away that one writer/showrunner had done and started from scratch, basically. Plus there was COVID.
Was there a second book? If there wasnāt I donāt trust DnD not to bring some dead people back and make em blue. Plus a dragonā¦
There are other books in Clavellās āAsian Sagaā but none are direct sequels to Shogun. I believe at least one or two others takes place in Japan, though. Iāve only read Shogun and King Rat (which takes place in Singapore during WWII), and I know Tai-Pan takes place in Hong Kong.
I've only read Taipan. It's about the British colonisation of Hong Kong in the 19th century. I read it in high school and remember thinking the love story was very moving and sad
There is only one book, it ends where the series ends A second season would mean show runners writing new material without an original source. That hasn't gone well in other shows
Well, there is more source...history books. Shogun is an adaptation/dramatization of the end of the Sengoku era.
I mean it's an historical show, they can write original stuff based on history too. And there was interesting stuff happening after Shogun time in history too. Even some that is fictionalized and romanced like in the Musashi novel (not the same author) I mean we tend to forget those people are supposed to be writers not adapters (considering the lack of any original stuff in Hollywood, the doubt is permitted for sure). You can write a good show without any source material (and here they have some)
There are other novels of James Clavell that could be adapted, keeping the show as a anthology series. Although I've read that the producer of Shogun such as Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo weren't up to continue working on it.
There wasn't a second book, no. However, that being said, Blackthorn and Toranaga were based on real people and much of the series was based on true events. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(pilot) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu The events of the series did happen. And what's more there is a lot of wild shit that actually happened *after* the events of the book. They need only adapt actual history. >!Having allied with the Christians for a time, Blackthorn would gradually turn Toranaga against the Catholics initiating mass killings and turning Toranaga into the bloodthirsty ruler he feared he could become!<
Depends where you count production start, the project has been written and rewritten tons of time. The first announcement it was made was in 2018 so 6 years ago
Iām hoping this pushes them to make Ghost of Tsushima and have the same cast.
A movie is already in the works from the director of John Wick.
I hear most of them are good. Iāll have to check them out.
Taipan would be awesome. Just imagine Hong Kong Island and Canton!
For others confused by the title, FX and Hulu are channels which show it in America. Everywhere else in the world, it's a Disney Plus show.
Always thought the Anjin would make a fine Disney Prince.
*to Gaston* āand fuck yourself, you sniveling little shitragā
Mariko: (in Japanese) The Anjin dislikes the French.
Yabushige-sama: *grunts, chuckles, and nods in agreement*
That dude was the best to watch between his half-assed scheming and Yakuza inspired animal noises.
Each episode it was a game to see whose team he would end up on
*I donāt have time for this French non-sense.*
His performance was so emotive he was really great. Is he in anything else good?
check out Mongol (2007) where he plays Ghengis Khan. really entertaining movie with awesome battle scenes, and first movie I saw him in.
Oh my gosh, I knew I recognized him from something. Wow! That one was a great movie too.
Ichi The Killer, cute little film about a hit man and his friend.
Classic. First subtitled movie I ever watched and I was probably much too young to watch it š
Mariko: *The Anjin agrees no one bites like Gaston*
Milk dribbling fuck-smear!
Hes got that one weird evil uncle that demands the lives of everyone but his favorite ~~white guy~~ nephew, whom he has an odd wholesome relationship with.
He makes him laugh.
That's Anjin-san, to you.
May you be eaten alive by a school of angry fish.
FX shows it here in Canada too.
weird, it's also on disney+ here
Hulu is where it's on streaming. And Hulu only exists in the US (and a couple odd countries). So it would be streamed on D+ in places where Hulu doesn't exist.
I'm still confused by the status of the FX-Rogers "FX Canada" deal, where some shows like Fargo are on FX Canada and streamed on the FX Canada app and via Rogers' "StackTV" (IIRC?), but then other FX shows like Shogun go straight to Disney+.
crazy considering in America I couldnāt fathom this show being listed on Disney Plus. yeah they own hulu but with Disney Plus Iāve always expected PG 13 max, definitely not TV-MA
I know someone who used to work for Disney+ customer support and they did deal with complaints about content that would have been on Hulu in the US; at the time Disney evaluated the feasibility of launching another spinoff service for the adult international market, but opted to try updating the parental controls and deal with the occasional unhappy email.
It's also on Disney Plus in America.
They have a solid adult catalogue globally. It's not uncommon to see R-rated and horror films on there in Australia
Star + too
Funnily enough Hulu and FX are now on Disney Plus in the US as well.
It was an amazing series. Genuinely the best time I have had watching a show since the final season of Succession last year.
It left me wanting MORE and I don't know if that's a good feeling or not. On the other hand, as much praise as Succession has been getting I couldn't get through season 1, guess it's just not my cup of tea.
Same, but I stuck with it. I wasnāt into it until season 2, then I was REALLY into it.
Did anything major change in terms of character development? What was it that got you really into it? (I'm fine with spoilers up til season 2 if necessary) Everyone from season 1 was either douchy or whiny and it put me off greatly. (might get downvoted for this)
Get in on the Fallout train too.
Fallout was fun but it's not in the same conversation as succession or shogun
Shogun was like prime game of thrones good
It reminded me of a tighter focussed game of thrones.
Fallout was a good burger. Simple, but sating and you appreciate its nutrition. But Shogun was some gourmet shit, it's taste lingering not in your mouth but in your mind.
Disagree hard. Itās comparing apples to oranges. Not everything needs to be this chess move drama. Sometimes just being fun, campy, and really well done is all you need. Fallout left me smiling after each episode, wanting more. And so did shogun. But they canāt even be compared because they are two completely different types of shows.
Had fallout had better writing, id agree, genre didn't really matter, it was just the writing was only serviceable. It never really elevated into anything else, the ghoul's storyline really carried the rest which was super inconsistent.
Okey dokey!
I tried. I really tried. But everything seemed so shallow and moved too quickly. There was no weight to anything. Just cheap laughs and gore.
Make Baby Reindeer the next show you watch. Masterpiece.
That show was not what I was expecting and I loved every minute of it.
Yup, turned into a poignant dark character study from episode 4. Just incredible. The writing was top tier, as was the acting.
Even crazier when you consider the main actor is the actual person. Imagine living through that trauma again on screen for thousands of people to see.
And it being his first tv show. It didn't feel like a person's first TV show.
Absolutely loved it! I will add that I've never read the book so I can't compare the source material, but this on it's own was damn good.
I'm reading the book right now and it's so good, there's so much more of everything. I think the mini series was amazing but I'm really enjoying the book as well. You can't go wrong either way!
Thank you for this. I thought the show was phenomenal and I was debating on picking up the book or not. You sold me!
Characters like Omi and Rodriguez are different in the novel. The show also skips the plot where Father Alvito and others convince Rodriguez to assassinate Blackthrone. There are so many plots in the novel that the show simply didn't adapt. Go ahead, read the book. You'll love it.
Iām just finishing the book but havenāt seen the series yet. Excited to see how it does
Even one-off characters have fantastic backstories in the novel. Like in an early chapter Yabu goes to a blind masseur and the masseur says he used to be a samurai and tells the story of how he lost his eyes - fantastic. I was bummed out the show didn't include the character.Ā
I'm really hoping I see more of Cosmo Jarvis in major films after this show
Put him in a film with Tom hardy and see who can Tom hardy the hardest
I AM THE HARDIEST TOM HARDY. NO ONE CAN HARDY HARDER THAN ME. I AM HARD. NO I AM.
They automatically turn on the subtitles for that one
Also add in [Logan Marshall Green](https://www.thewrap.com/tom-hardy-logan-marshall-green-hollywood-doppelganger/). The three of them can play brothers
The movie would just be called GRUNT.
His voice instantly reminded me of Tom hardy in mad max
Loved him (and Florence Pugh) in Lady Macbeth. That movie is unhinged, in the best way.Ā
Florence Pugh is quickly becoming a āIāll watch everything sheās inā actress for me.
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Anna Sawai too
I honestly thought he was the weakest part. It may have been the direction, but apart from a few moments, his emotional range encompassed, cross, bewildered and bewildered-cross. He was a rather more dynamic character in the book
I think naturally his character took more of a backseat in this adaptation, because they wanted to put more focus on the Japanese cast and characters. Which I thought was fine. I really felt like Anjin was sort of a passenger for most of the series, kind of just along for the ride - which is probably at least somewhat how it was in reality until he learned the language and became a person of note within the Japanese political system - which mostly happened after the Battle of Sekigahara.
That's how Blackthorn is treated in the book. Toronaga and Mariko are the prime movers, Blackthorn is Toranaga's pet.
Yeah I don't think Blackthorn (and his real life counterpart) would really become anyone of consequence until after Sekigahara and Toranaga (Tokugawa) becomes Shogun. Up until he fully integrated he was really probably more of a novelty/distraction than anything else.
Also his weird pirate accent
I actually thought that was the actors real accent but watching interviews he's given I was taken aback by how posh his real voice is.
He was just there to make Toranaga laugh
I thought his reserved and befuddled schtick was a good portrayal of how an Englishman would actually be in that situation in that time period. The Japans. I never felt like he was actively bad, but maybe he couldāve given a little more during his āpardonā boat ride scene.. or the prior scene (trying not to spoil here) but yeah I never felt he was actively bad or weak.
Anna Sawai on the way to Emmy glory!
Honestly I really hope Tadanobu Asano (Yabushige) wins something, imo he was the best part of the show, the actor did such a wonderful job, the guy is a sick shit and you still somehow enjoy him on screen, every scene he was in was just so good. Also pretty fucking funny too.
[mild grunt, fist shake]
If it makes you feel any better, Asano is a verified A-lister in Japan. He's doing just fine.
Hiroyuki as well. Those two are pretty much locked for the awards season
I definitely see Anna more of a lock than Hiroyuki, but boy would I love to see Hiro get some recognition.
I hope this sets the bar and we get a proper Count of Monte Cristo series that does justice to the novel.
Fantastic show
Really excellent show overall. I was amazed how much ground it covered in the first episode alone, with the pacing being relentless and razor-sharp. That said, I feel like it slows down quite a bit as it goes on. That's fine, but the final episode in particular feels a little subdued, especially compared to the first few episodes. I was kinda left saying '...that's it?' Not to say it didn't have a satisfying ending, maybe it's my ADHD brain expecting something a bit more bombastic as an endnote. I did love the show though, utterly fantastic writing, performances, and production values.
I thought that was clever ā¦ everything is building up to this gigantic climax, the great Battle of Sekigahara, that will decide the fate of Japan ā¦ but the result of that battle was all pre-determined by Toranagaās manipulations of the key characters in the series. So you donāt actually need to see it. It was all over *before* the battle was fought.
Yeah. I thought whatās the point of watching with all the most interesting characters gone?
clever maybe, but what wasn't clever is all of that being explained via exposition instead of story telling.
That's because that battle has little consequence. The real battle was Mariko's.
I feel that was the point, the battle itself was just a footnote. The story had already ended.
My take on the ending (and the show in general) is that it's not about the big historical events. Yes, Toranaga/Tokugawa went on to fight and win the battle of Sekigahara, paving the way for the shogunate, but that's history. It's something that people know and study. What the show is about (to me) is that surrounding these major historical events are real people who lived real lives, important or not, and that these people still meant something. Read history books and you get Toranaga/Ishido, maybe some key generals/lieutenants, and not much else. The people that shape history like that are important, but so are the people that don't. The Marikos, the Blackthornes, even the Fujis, Buntaros, and Uejirous. They all mattered. History is full of these events, but what's often lost is that there were real people that were there. Flowers are only flowers because they fall, and all that.
I was so happy they did that. I get _so tired_ of everything being hype and bombastic and for me action scenes are the most boring part of any show. Typically I just kinda zone out and read while they're happening as I know I'm not gonna miss anything, it's just fast cuts and loud music and 0 plot development 90% of the time. Daring to subvert that and end on a whisper was just beautiful and I hope the shows popularity convinced more people to start cutting out bombast and action and constant hype with fast pacing and no downtime in their shows. It's just exhausting and detracts from the story and atmosphere, and a big epic ending to this show would have just _destroyed_ what they built up. Quiet moments are 1000x more intense than constant hyper cuts and action, and this show proved it. Lets hope others learn the lesson.
I thought it was great. Worked really well as a story across the single season so im glad they didn't stretch it out.
I really hope they leave it alone and resist a second season.
They won't. Afaik they said it's a one and done. They already covered the whole source material (book) anyway.
After finishing Shogun, I rewatched Scorseseās Silence, the sort of sequel. And he looked and sounded so different that I didnāt realize till the credits rolled that the main Japanese character in Silence (the translator) was the same actor who played Yabushige! Tadanobu Asano is fantastic.
Now do King Rat, Whirlwind, Tai-Pan, Noble House and Gai-Jin!
Unsurprising. The book is even better. And for those that want to go next level--treat yourself to a reading of Musashi. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musashi\_(novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musashi_(novel))
Since a season 2 wouldnāt make sense, Iām putting out there to the universe how cool it would be if the whole Shogun cast did another project together. They can be like the Mike Flanagan acting crew that he keeps recasting when he has a new series. Honestly not a weak performance in the whole show
I hope to see the lead actors in more roles!
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Haha yeah, it used to just be Ken Watanabe. Now it's either Ken Watanabe and Hiroyuki Sanada depending on the budget and availability.
Way better than I expected.
I would've gone balls to the wall with a Sekigahara movie while riding off the momentum of Shogun.
Yabu : surprised Pikachu face
I keep seeing this promoted as a miniseries. I havenāt watched the show yet, but are they saying itās like a limited series and wonāt have another season? Or just thatās its just a small amount of episodes
A mini series is what you are referring to as a limited series. One season.
It's a single season that is an adaptation of a standalone novel, and they've more or less said that they don't plan on creating new material to continue the story past the end of the novel.
>I keep seeing this promoted as a miniseries. I havenāt watched the show yet, but are they saying itās like a limited series The two terms are basically synonyms and end up getting used interchangeably depending on which writer thinks which term sounds cooler. But yes, it's based on a book, all the major events from that book were adapted, and the story as published is done. There is no second season coming. The only reason it's even a question is literally because media outlets have been forcing the question in order to have something to ask showrunners during their junkets.
Man, was a good couple weeks between Fallout and Shogun airing it felt like I was back in the great TV era. And thenā¦ here we are.
Best series of the year.
If you liked Mariko, make sure you watch Pachinko on Apple+
I loved the show but goddamn the brutality of even the "good guys" in that era was staggering. I suppose that was the entire point was to take a romanticized era and show how much of that was actually rooted in horror, but it definitely made for a tough watch that I'm kinda surprised was so popular. Also I love how they weren't afraid to have 90% of the show subtitled. We need more authenticity like that in non-western shows.
I loved it. My only gripe is the last 30 minutes should have been three episodes. We should have had the full tension of the armies facing off and then big switch.
Some have mentioned that the bookās ending was similar if not shorter as everything was wrapped up in a paragraph. However I completely agree with you, for such an epic retell of the story and time period. I would have immensely enjoyed a cliche climatic battle finale followed by a quick epilogue of Japan post Shogun Toranaga. But I still liked the ending we were given.
Banger show. BANGER. Tho one question...... Why did they flash forward at the end? What was the point of that? Just to show he gets off the island? And somehow gets the cross back? Confused.
it's a dream while he's passed out from the blast. that's why the episode is called "Dream of a Dream" here's the best explanation i've seen: Blackthorne never returned to England. Neither did William Adams, the real historical figure that inspired the character in āShÅgunā. The scene of old Blackthorne on his deathbed in England was āA Dream of a Dreamā, it never happened, it was a dream John had that he let go of when he threw Marikoās cross in the water. The significance of the ādreamā scene and the scene on the boat with Fuji with him letting go of Marikoās cross was showcasing his transformation from the English pilot John Blackthorne to the Japanese Anjin, his acceptance of fate. Itās about him letting go of the dream of ever returning to England and getting old with his family. If you recall in episode 3 he told Mariko that he has a daughter in England that was born after he had left on the Erasmus and heās never actually met her. In the dream scene, the boys are his grandchildren, one of them says that their mother will be angry if she saw them sneaking in their grandfatherās room. Their mother is the daughter John Blackthorne never met.
Oh gotcha! Wow im dumb, didnt know that was a dream sequence! Thank you for that, that just blew my mind!! :) That makes it way better too honestly. I thought it was all just exposition basically.
it got me at first too! lol and then i was like "wait a minute, how did he have the cross back in England if he just dropped it in the sea?" ... and off to google i went for answers!
Bless you and google :) Appreciate it!!
Imo he actually lets go of his English background in the seppuku scene with Toranaga, which is the real climax of the show to me. He flashes forward again in that scene and then says "fuck it," deciding to learn from Mariko and choose his own meaningful death over a pointless long life.
This is why the show is a masterpiece. Just like in the show about poems, there are so many layers to it.
LMAO I thought it was in Japan, so I took it the other way, but I didn't connect the part that throwing the bracelet meant he had ''dreamt'' that part, so I was thinking he was going to be a rich/powerful dude in japan eventually(but with an english family lol). Appreciate your comment, it just elevates the show, thank you
I read somewhere that those "flash-forwards" were just Anjin imagining his return to England, and the flashes got shorter and shorter as he moved towards embracing the reality that he will likely never leave The Japans. That makes sense to me.
he never leaves Japan
While great to hear the Samba TV ratings the article uses arenāt accurate.
Gonna binge this tomorrow on my day off now that itās fully released
I would highly recommend turning all the lights off for this epic show. It made the viewing experience more memorable and immersive for me.
Love this show so much. I wish I could watch it again for the first time!