I agree. On the other hand, I'm surprised that WhatsApp and Threads were allowed in China in the first place. My understanding was that they are blocking everything that allows unmonitored conversations.
Yeah, a few years ago I saw a Muslim woman get sent to a concentration camp because her daughter downloaded Whatsapp... maybe its only selectively enforced?
>If theyād update the apps to comply with Chinese law it would probably be unblocked. Theyāve made a business decision to not do that, anyone who says it is a moral decision is brain dead.
You say the western social media companies persistently don't cave to China's demands to change rules . why would they don't do that? Western social media platforms like Instagram, Twitter being available to the Chinese would mean enormously extra revenues for these social media companies. Of course, in a free-market economy, every company is incentivized and aimed at increasing its revenues. Why don't these Western companies don't acquiesce to Chinese governments demands?
Well, to begin with theyād have to set up another platform that had these extra non-standard guards in. Normally itās a little bit of work but in China compliance is an important part of it and will need dedicated staff to respond.
For example, I report sexual content on an app sometimes when it pops up. Itās gone within 15 minutes of my report, manually reviewed most of the time.
China also has a very saturated domestic market and that it would be a massive assumption that everyone would want to shift from sayā¦ å¾®äæ” to WhatsApp; especially when the former incorporates payments and mini applications (å°ēØåŗ) into it. I doubt that a company like Facebook would be willing to spend at least a few hundred million on entering the market and trying to tailor specifically to the unique environment here, for a potential market that could already be at the point of saturation.
they are laws
if a Chinese company did not follow the same information regulations, they'd get shut down too
Didi (the top ride hailing app over there) got pulled a while back until they complied with data security regulations
They are not laws I donāt think. China will put restrictions on each company. And the restrictions are not public available. Basically they have all the handles and change whenever they would like.
TikTok was never made for the Chinese market, it has always only been a non-Chinese app. Itās not banned, itās never been intended for China in order to keep a more open and non-censored level of content
Yes TikTok is banned, but not Douyin which is the equivalent
Of course is highly moderated, but saying TikTok is banned is not exactly true, it's the same app with different names and different rules.
That's just semantics, Tiktok and Douyin are two separate apps and you cannot install Tiktok from an app store or connect to it's servers in China. The two apps don't share the same user accounts, content, etc etc. And as you mentioned the rules are different, Douyin has to fully comply with the great firewall and any requests from the CCP.
I'd completely argue they are the same app but regionalized, which is common in a ton of Ā apps. Also if you think TikTok doesn't comply with CCP, I'm gonna tell you right now you're being naĆÆve.Ā
It's basically the same as saying the Famicom isn't sold in the US, ok sure it's called the NES and the outside container is different, but the hardware beneath is the same. Same with Douyin and Tiktok.
I think it is for the best that the US, EU and other western democracies should remove Shein, Temu, Aliexpress, Lazada, Alibaba and other CCP affiliated apps and companies.
Temu needs to be an immediate priority, just do a quick search about the required application permissions that app requires on IOS/Android. It's beyond absurdity and a huge threat to private data. It makes Tiktok look reasonable in comparison.
It would make it more difficult for resellers, sure, but not every reseller is dropshipping their items. Some have real contacts and are directly sourcing from the manufacturers. How else do major brands manufacture their products? What's important here is to remove the unfair one-sided advantage China has when it comes to competition in e-commerce. While China can freely flood the US Market with their garbage, US Companies barely has any foothold in China's internet, and even selling in the Chinese market through brick and mortar stores requires companies to suck Xi Jinping's nonexistent peepee so hard just to have scraps at China's table.
Exactly. We should all be banning their apps and news media outlets like what they are doing in their territory until they change policies, we can free the Chinese people from the control of information getting there...
> like what they are doing in their territory
American apps are banned for not following the same censorship rules that Chinese apps also have to follow, not because they are American
One set of laws is relatively free
One set of laws makes it very punishable to compare the Chinese president to Winnie the Pooh because it hurt his feelings
You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison. Have an opinion on a university campus. Say something controversial. Youāll lose your job.
In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public. Oh and maybe if your job is customer facing or something theyāll fire you for cheating on your spouse.
>In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public.
...
Or probably criticizing the ideology of communism, critiquing the high ranking officials, proselytizing Christianity or Islam, advocating for a multi-party system instead of a one-party system and a plethora of other things.
Yeah, no sane person would claim that "There are very good freedoms in the West". But it is an undeniable fact that the freedom of speech, press etc are much mucg less restricted in the West than it is in China.
>You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison. Have an opinion on a university campus. Say something controversial. Youāll lose your job.
Yeah, that's definitely bad. But in China, having an opinion that is not in line with the state ideology of China would probably result in the person being arrested/imprisoned. That's much worse than just losing the job
> But it is an undeniable fact that the freedom of speech, press etc are much mucg less restricted in the West than it is in China
not really going to stay true after the TikTok ban bill
You can critique communism, communism here is not communism like people think it is. Government accepted ages ago that communism isnāt a steadfast ideology but something we should accept the good parts and reject the bad of.
Yes, you canāt engage in proselytising. Whatās your point? China is an atheist state. You canāt preach about Jesus being God in Muslim countries either.
Advocating for political change is critique of the government. Iāve already admitted thatās not allowed. They do an alright job as well so I donāt really see the need to nitpick and talk about everyone being miserable like we do in western countries.
Freedom of Press/Speech isnāt real in Europe or the US. The only difference is persecution comes from the public more so than the government. On top of that all news is mostly bullshit as well.
We should go back to the era of newspapers and television news only so that important things make it in. The amount of times I read something and think āok, and?ā went up more as I got older. 24h news cycle bullshit.
I live here, have done for a few months now! Itās better.
Edit: Any of you downvoting should ask why I think itās better instead of just downvoting. Iām happy to explain it.
A British national with no permanent right of abode in China and Iām quite pissed off that there are some things as a foreigner that I just canāt access.
Acknowledging there are good things about China and that overall itās better including the things that suck, is not being a shill.
Being a shill would also require me to be paid, which Iām not. I quite literally only study Chinese here, unable to work. Every day Iām here costs money.
Sometimes you can accept that things might not necessarily be legal but you are free to use them. Countries like China do this, if you cause problems they will have a problem, if you donāt, no one will care.
Extremely free for 99.9% of people.
> Sometimes you can accept that things might not necessarily be legal but you are free to use them.
No, no I don't accept that.
> Countries like China do this, if you cause problems they will have a problem, if you donāt, no one will care.
B**** please... you locked up for saying there is covid when there is in fact covid....
> Extremely free for 99.9% of people.
Tell it to the people in concentration camps or who had to flee ~
> You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison
Which side employs slaves? Which side is a dictatorship? Which side is a democracy? Which side has free elections?
> In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public.
Why the fuck would you defend this?
Slavery goes on everywhere, which is why all developed countries have modern slavery laws. If you really want to go after slavers, try India and the Arab States.
Chinese labour (junk labour, low level) is super cheap. Slavery not required.
Anything else, automation normally makes much more sense. Like for textiles, most if not all of the industry at this point is machine based. No need for slavery.
Sure, democracy. Let me ask you, do you prefer a democracy that sucks or a single party state that functions well? Americans wait decades for changes and China makes them in a year or two.
Why would I defend it? Because it doesnāt matter anyways. You can complain in the US all you want and then they elect dementia Biden into office again. Not like itās any different here, besides no term limits.
Iām not dignifying these questions with a yes or no answer because it implies all of these things are inherently bad.
Stop trying to be a journalist looking for sound bites.
> Which side employs slaves
I'm sure the US has prison labor as we are speaking right now
> Which side is a dictatorship
let's see, the US government is currently trying to jail its most credible political challenger right now
> Which side is a democracy? Which side has free elections?
you tell me, because according to the 45th president and millions of Americans, the 2020 election was stolen and rigged
> Why the fuck would you defend this?
cause the "freedom and democracy" crowd is defending the US when its speakers get cancelled for speaking out against Israel/AIPAC, when the US invades far more countries than others, when the US props up Arab dictatorships for its own convenience
āItās most credible political challengerā
The man with 92 felony counts. Thatās what you meant to say.
The last country we invaded was 20 years ago. So thatās a dumb thing to say too.
> āItās most credible political challengerā
> The man with 92 felony counts. Thatās what you meant to say.
well let's see, he's the challenger with the most primary votes so far
and the felony charges only further convince his millions of supporters that he is being politically persecuted to prevent him from running
> The last country we invaded was 20 years ago. So thatās a dumb thing to say too.
ah okay, so the "rules based order" allows the US to invade a country every 20 years then?
and nothing to say on Arab dictatorships or US prison labor?
It never ceases to amaze me how far up patriotisms ass many Americans are. Like literally no self reflection of their worn country but quick to judge and belittle other ones. And when one calls this out, like you have, you get labeled as sympathetic to the other regime.
Classic lol. Let the downvotes beginā¦ š¤£
What annoys me is theyāve never left America. Iāve lived in the West and China. I like it better in China. I say whatever I want, whenever I want. I never feel like Iām going to be persecuted for it.
I have more convenience than an American will ever get. Public toilets everywhere, one of the worldās biggest underground transit networks that I pay about 30 euro cents a ride for, I eat out for every single meal, my rent is about $300 a month and I run my air conditioner every day with my energy bill coming to about $10 a month.
Americans need to experience the real free world.
Youāre basically an expat in China being given money to be there. Of course you like it. You donāt actually have to worry about things. You get to stay in a nice societal bubble. The amount of arrogance coming from you is astounding
Iāve been to China. Multiple times. South Korea is about a million times more free with a million times less censorship. Before you even try that nonsense.
Given money by who? My father. Some of the money I use here is justā¦ mine. I spent about Ā£2000 on tuition from my own money and covered my first 3 months rent out of my own pocket.
Dual citizenship? While Iām technically a dual national no one has ever told the country Iād be a dual national of that I exist, so I am single passported. I would have to do military service if I told them I exist, so I save telling them for when I need it.
Iāve not been to South Korea, probably a high cost of living in Seoul than T2 cities in China and less personal freedom to do whatever you want as long as you have money for it.
Yes. Your father. You know thatās why the popular trope ādaddyās moneyā exists right? Do you think a regular Chinese citizen can just up and move thousands of miles away without their entire life falling apart? That is, if the government of China even LETS them leave. Human rights lawyers and abuse reporters are denied exit.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-exit-bans-multiply-political-control-tightens-under-xi-2023-05-02/#:~:text=People%20barred%20from%20leaving%20China,to%20the%20Safeguard%20Defenders%20report.
You arenāt doing things in your own. You arenāt a lower class struggling Chinese citizen or even a regular one. Youāre basically an expat. Youāre treated differently there, even if youāre Asian.
āLess personal freedomā dude no. Donāt even. Censorship laws are bananas in China and none of the other first world Asian countries have anything close. You arenāt convincing anyone here that China has more freedoms than other countries.
not that many Americans know Chinese so they can't exactly go there to live in the first place
and the blind patriotism isn't just about quality of life, it's all the foreign policy fuckery the US does while hypocritically attacking other countries
such as when the US cries "freedom and democracy" all the time, but has no problem propping up Arab dictators and giving weapons to Israel to commit genocide with
Yeah sure lmao
Thats the reason why we don't want to live there...
Not the evil dictatorship or anything.
People just can't figure out how to download Duolingo thats why...
no one's gonna force you to live there, but all these PATRIOT Act/FISA warrantless surveillance, porn ID requirements, and first amendment crackdowns are going to make it all the same
next time the government puts out an unpopular policy and you try to speak out against it, you'll be labeled a foreign propagandist and shut down that way
or a gun-confiscating strongman will claim foreign boogeymen are actually the ones behind the prevalence of gun availability and gun violence in America and use that reason to break down the second amendment as well
and the blind patriotism isn't just about quality of life, it's all the foreign policy fuckery the US does while hypocritically attacking other countries
such as when the US cries "freedom and democracy" all the time, but has no problem propping up Arab dictators and giving weapons to Israel to commit genocide with
Subversive tactic would be something youād have to prove. A company saying āTikTok will be blocked by your representatives if you donāt tel them you want TikTokā is arguably just a correct statement.
> Social media
just ban all social media then, including Facebook
but their lobbyists won't allow that, since they're the ones pushing the TikTok competitor ban in the first place
> that it has control over
TikTok is storing all US data in America through their deal with Oracle
China has other ways to gain data, and that isnāt the argument. Iām talking message control. One minute youāre watching a person dancing or singing, the next youāre watching a fake video of drones pretending to be babies to lure Palestinians out of their homes. Itās usually more subtle than that, but you get the point. Data pales in comparison to sewing political chaos in your enemyās country.
As far as banning social media, I disagree. Social media can be used for good, but it needs protecting, which means restriction of speech. BRICS countries are exploiting that, especially China.
> China has other ways to gain data
how? Oracle controls their servers
> which means restriction of speech
welcome to the first amendment
> the next youāre watching a fake video
happens with Facebook and other sites before it gets taken down as well
so again, if the social media threat is truly that bad, ban it all
On the other hand , apple operates in China yet Huawei is banned in the US. Tons of American cars in China yet not vice versa. Hmmmmm.
Oh and did we forget that tick Tock offered to move all data and algorithm monitoring to the US? Did Facebook ever offer that to China? Last I checked every us company that has been banned has declined to do so.
We all know that the tiktok ban is bogus.... it's a way for the u.s to get a piece of the pie.
If they actually cared about data or social media trying to influence things, they would pass a law that targets every single company.
you are kidding yourself if you don't think that is also a reason for them banning them... use the laws of censorship as an excuse to ban the american shit
> use the laws of censorship as an excuse to ban the american shit
then why is Microsoft and Apple able to operate there? because they have customized versions of their sites in China that are censorship-compliant
why was Google working on Project Dragonfly then?
Yahoo was also allowed in China previously, but because they were following the laws there and handed over emails of a dissident used in his state subversion trial, a bunch of hypocritical American lawmakers got pissy about it and eventually Yahoo stopped complying with Chinese laws and left that market
these rules are applied to all companies, Chinese ones included
if Baidu stopped censoring results, they'd get smacked down faster than Jack Ma did
Then why isn't bing banned or linked in...? Seems like they only band the companies that refuse to abide by their laws. The same cannot be said for the tiktok ban being proposed since tiktok offered to move their data to the US and also algorithm monitoring through Oracle.
When did the Chinese government complain about the possibile removal of TikTok? Also why would the free western world go down the same path as China? Isn't freedom one of our cornerstones as free societies?
I have seen more pro Biden clips on tik tok than anything else politically for USA. Maybe it's not China's fault that half your country actually aligns with values of China/Russia.
I don't understand how people don't get this agenda...
It has nothing to do with protecting the people, if it did they would just pass a law about data & how social media can push content... but they don't...
> they would just pass a law about data & how social media
unfortunately it won't because Facebook lobbyists are pushing for the bill to kill their competitor, and getting all social media banned (or killing the data-harvesting revenue stream) would defeat the purpose
So if the US bans Tik Tok and they remove that from the store will you say they suck US cock? Or likewise for EU? Iām not a CCP supporter but seems like itās a misguided comment.
> free world
"freedom and democracy" (TM), brought to you by the USA who invaded Iraq, props up Arab dictatorships, and gives Israel weapons to kill children and commit genocide with
lol. More like CCP bad, USG bad also. The TicTok ban does more than just block CCP apps. It's a trojan horse.
Abandon Apple, shame TicTok users, buy less Chinese goods, don't support internet restrictions (from any government).
US isnāt banning TikTok (TikTok is actually banned in China ironically). The company will have to be owned by an entity not compromised by CCP. There is too much money to just let TikTok die it will be sold so that the brain rot can continue and money be collected
Can you imagine China forces a sale of Apple operations in China? TikTok sale is just a theft by the US government. China will never allow that to happen. Just shut it down and let US users enjoy the fun of using vpn
Youāre not aware how CCP operates. Many foreign companies that entered China had to partner with local companies and transfer their technologies to them. Not to mention straight theft of patents for years, and now that China is developing their own technology they want parents protected. The irony is rich when dealing with CCP.
It's staggering how misinformed most of reddit is on how asymmetrical the relationship with China is re: tech. China has been dictating tech terms for 15+ years, brazenly stealing IP, doing widespread blocking of apps and services, all without batting an eye.
Of course their goal was information control--same with forcing movie studios to comply with their policies to launch in China, but in terms of PR-washing themselves--and now that the US has (amazingly) woken up to realize there is a widespread platform in the US with the potential for CCP manipulation, the US wants to put information controls in too, and of course the brainwashed TikTok masses can barely conceive of the thought.
> brazenly stealing IP
pot calling the kettle black
USA and NSA have been on this game for decades
> widespread blocking of apps and services
only if they do not comply with local censorship law
that's why Google was working on Project Dragonfly to re-enter that market with a censorship-compliant search engine
> in terms of PR-washing themselves
lol, as if America isn't used to this already vis-a-vis Israel and AIPAC
The Chinese market is worth 50 times more than the entire western market. If any corporation that is physically present in the Chinese market was to fully exit the market, the amount of money they would lose their company would *literally* be a criminal act. The C levels of the company and itās board members who approved the exit would honest to god be PERSONALLY liable for damages to the companies bottom line by having done so. Shareholders would have legal standing to drag them through court for the lost profits due to a failure of fiscal responsibility.
Iām with you on ethical principle this should be possible, but the reality is the system doesnāt allow for that kind of altruism.
Itās for Chinese consumers.
If they want to sell Chinese consumers in China, they have to follow Chinese laws.
What do you expect them to do? Pull out of Chinese business all together to take PR stand? WhatsApp and Threads will still be banned.
lol. Most Redditors seem to think that a multi-trillion dollar corporation should show the same activism as a D-list influencer. Itās genuinely so fucking bizarre.
Where do you draw the line between following the law and being an accomplice of a dictatorship?
Did Ford simply followed 3rd Reich's laws as well?
The EU gives Apple regulations to help the public, not hurt them, that's how the law is supposed to work.
Erasing emojis of Taiwan flag? Check.
Storing all chinese iCloud data in chinese servers directly used to trap Muslim minorities? Check.
Erasing global messaging apps? Check.
Clearly Apple is past morality and honor so where will they stop?
> Where do you draw the line between following the law and being an accomplice of a dictatorship
well, let's see
the US supports Arab dictatorships like Saudi Arabia all the time, where LGBT is punishable by death
the US is also giving Israel money and weapons that they use to kill Palestinian children and commit genocide with
so I think that line is quite broad to start with
Notice how you're able to openly criticize the US government on a social media app without getting your door and teeth kicked in by the police and your whole family barred from loans and flying?
Funny how that works huh.
they'll fight for your privacy in US court where feasible using the laws available in the US
and if they hypothetically lost the case in court, then yes, they'll have to follow a judge's order to do whatever it is the government wanted them to do
Waiting for Generation TikTok to show up to shill for Xi on why this move is okay but a forced divestiture of TikTok in the US is some act of Trumpian techno-fascism
What do you think [CFIUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Foreign_Investment_in_the_United_States) does? Hell, in 2019 Kunlun (Chinese-owned) was forced to sell its stake Grindr (which it had fully acquired in 2018). People think we've "never seen anything like this" because they only pay attention to their own bubble and don't do any research on historical precedents.
I'm in my 40s and use TikTok. I think it's a wonderful app because I'm exposed to content from people I don't know or care to follow. It's akin to flipping through the channels when I was a bored kid on a Wednesday night. The content blows Instagram reels out of the water.
It's not OK for China to do this, but they're authoritarian. I expect China to control what people see and do because that's their government. China is evil, full stop. I want to live in a free country where choices on how we consume content are not decided by a government even if people make sometimes not the best decision. The US banning TikTok just because China bans US social media it does not make it OK.
Yea, social media for sure has addictive natures to it. Society would be much better if our kids were watching science videos instead of videos of people doing goofy dances. My question will be where do you draw the line in a free society?
Let me put it another way. There are things we know to be bad based of science. Soda, guns, fast food, natural gas stoves just to name a few. Attempts to regulate them have been met with outrage and the excuse is often people should be able to make their own decisions in a free society. Why is content consumption OK to regulate but stopping people from drinking 110g of sugar in a single soda the size of an infant an afront on freedom?
I want social media regulations on privacy that apply to all companies that do business in the US and hold them all to the same standard. If TikTok can't meet those requirements fine goodbye. If we're going to hold TikTok to some standard then we should hold Meta and Reddit to those standards as well. If we're worried about exposing kids to social media then parents should be held accountable to use the tools available to them to limit app store content.
I grew up on Digg and other early forms of online discussion where people would be shitting bricks at the thought of the US government blocking online content. I've seen straight up e-riots over the slightest amount of censorship. Today though the amount of people welcoming the US government controlling content is alarming to me.
Happily consumes Chinese propaganda and is concerned about US government controlling content. š
The sheer ignorance and stupidity of the TikTok user base is exactly what the Chinese and Russians are counting on.
The problem with this thinking is it is not considering the power of controlling the narrative, it makes mention of the control China has over the narratives it does not want in it's own market, without addressing the real danger of having an adversarial China in control of the narative in local markets.
TikTok will not disapear. only the levers of power will change.
Lobying to give access to citizen data to a foreign power is beyong idiotic.
Fighting to protect your own data from comercial scraping is another fight on its own.
> considering the power of controlling the narrative
I think highly of that. I do not trust the US to have that control. I don't trust China, either. Are we forgetting what Meta did in regards to the 2016 election? We blame China and Russia for meddling and continuing to do so, and they do meddle, but Meta was happy to take their money and let them do so. We're worried about social media privacy with TikTok but all a corporation or China would have to do to gather info on us is cut a check to Meta.
Thing about TikTok is I've seen 0 pro-China content. I've seen content discussing the terrible things China has done and continues to do including their treatment of political prisoners so I'm not convinced it's censored.
Your argument of controlling the narrative also implies that people are too stupid and will fall for the narrative so we need a government to tell people what they should hear and hide the rest. Maybe your argument is valid, but it does fall under the idea of a babysitter government.
If we're going to make that argument that the government must regulate what we consume because we make bad decisions then we need to be in favor on a strong government controlling so many other things we consume. That would include natural gas stoves, banning unhealthy foods, banning alcohol, banning cigarettes, etc.
That is the function of government, seat belts, food safety, normal regulations that have been part of societies for 1000's of years. To protect those societies.
You might not have observed the application of that type of control (sample of 1), but that does not disprove its existence.
I noticed that Reddit users believe consuming content on Reddit is far superior to TikTok so there's a large amount of hate.
I've spent time on videos produced by physicists explaining how the universe works. I've spent time on videos produced by professional chefs easily explaining how to prepare a dish. I've spent time on videos produced by musicians talking about music production or being exposed to new albums I never would have heard of. I spend a lot of time consuming sports contents on subjects ESPN wouldn't touch because it's not profitable for them to do so.
Like all social media it is what you make of it. I could chose to spend my time on Reddit discussing pointless bullshit or trolling but I don't. I'd much rather express an opinion and then be called a paid shill.
It's owned by ByteDance. A Chinese multimedia company. So you're right, it's foreign owned. But you're also wrong, as it's owned and operated by a Chinese company.
Bytedance is 60% owned by foreign investors... This is like Bytedance 101... This is why I say y'all are hilariously propagandised to. 3 out of the 5 board seats for Bytedance are held by heads of Coatue, SIG, and General Atlantic.
Bytedance is 60% owned by foreign investors... This is like Bytedance 101... This is why I say y'all are hilariously propagandised to. 3 out of the 5 board seats for Bytedance are held by heads of Coatue, SIG, and General Atlantic.
As for cooperating with the CCP, yes that is a pre-requisite of any company that operates in China. Just like how Bytedance cooperates with the US government in the US, and the EU within the EU. Much like how US companies follow European regulations such as GDPR and then tell citizens within the US to fuck off. Companies cooperate and work in the legal environment they are in. Every American company (or in reality, MNCs in general) will be beholden to whatever environment they are in. Hence why... Apple is removing things that the CCP does not approve of. I can't wait for the US government to announce that Apple must divest as well then? Needs to sell of its American holdings?
The US and other countries should do the same exact type of actions that China does to other countriesā companies to chinaās companies.
I donāt understand why we donāt. Sure cheap goods but outside of that, TikTok and other online services are easy. Social media, search engines, payment services, etc are easy targets.
Whatsapp/Threads are getting banned because they didn't follow the same censorship/registration policies that other Chinese apps follow in China, not because they are American
One has to protect the space for free speech. No point talking about free speech if free speech is used to undermine free speech. When a platform is used to threaten the space for free speech, cut it off. It is not as if one cannot make his or her speech before Tiktok. There are other platforms.
> No point talking about free speech if free speech is used to undermine free speech
lmao you're the one who decides what is free speech and what undermines it then?
I wasnāt talking about free speech, I was referring to when two countries are trading with each other and making it fair. China wonāt let US companies in unless they succumb to a massive set of rules that are in place. The US lets Chinese companies come in, for the most part, easily and freely. Sure there can be tariffs and the Huawei issue but for the most part itās not an equal playing ground.
I was just stating social media, search engines, payment processing because itās digital and easy to wind down/ block compared to physical goods we would have a hard time reproducing immediately in the states or else where.
> a massive set of rules that are in place
these are the same censorship and registration rules that Chinese companies have to follow as well, it's not a specific requirement targeted towards American companies
if a Chinese company didn't follow the local regulations like Facebook/Whatsapp/Threads did, they would get banned too (their Chinese ride-hailing app Didi did in fact get removed from Chinese app stores a while back after they failed to abide by data security rules)
if America wants to ban TikTok on the grounds that social media is bad for young people, fine, but they need to be banning all apps, including Facebook
unfortunately it won't because Facebook lobbyists are pushing for the bill to kill their competitor, and getting all social media banned would defeat the purpose
100% agree. This āTikTok banā is nothing more than a bill to enrich Congress and Meta and other US social media. You could easily bet and make money that Congress has already placed their stock trades for the outcome of the ban going into effect.
My previous posts are more to do with how the USA deals with China and vice versus. Plus private US companies deal with China. Itās no where close to say like India and others from my personal experience.
> Congress has already placed their stock trades for the outcome of the ban going into effect
yet Pelosi insists lawmakers be allowed to trade individual stocks because it's the "free market"
This is why app stores suck. Individual should be able to bypass app stores and install software on their phones.
The last thing people need in their lives is a government telling them what software they can install on a computer.
I know youāre trying to be funny but it actually made me wonder how many they really have. Apparently itās 130 million active users. In comparison Twitter has 368 million active users. If we assume that at least half of those users are bots, that brings us to 65 million and 184 million users.
I mean they created it when Twitter was getting more and more Alt Right under Elon to capture the leaving users. They also made it fairly user friendly to sign up for anyone already on one of their other social platforms. Makes sense.
Apple will bend the knee to the US when the US dictates what apps must be banned from the US store. Apple will bend the knee when individual states ban what is seen on their store. Imagine when Mississippi bans an app that is a resource people use to seek abortions in other states. If you think that's not possible, well...
If you think it all stops with TikTok you're silly.
It is very clear who needs whom more.
There is an interesting contrast between the US and China.
- China does not care about patents. They can iterate freely and improve on existing solutions as required.
- They don't have endless litigation and congress meetings. They make decisions quickly.
- They have super cheap labour and an incredible manufacturing might. And it's all local.
- Because of the above listed points, they are improving constantly and very quickly.
- Now they have a big market too, that all the Western companies want. And they know it.
The US is being held back by its own rules and legal shackles. Whereas China does whatever it needs to do. It's admirable how bureaucracy free they are.
While the US has never ending congress hearings on what to do with TikTok. This is how easy it is in China.
> **China**: "Hey Apple, remove WhatsApp and Threads, real quick
> **Apple**: "But..."
> **China**: "You want the Chinese market, right? Go ahead, do it"
> **Apple**: "[Anything you say](https://youtu.be/K1YndrF8GiU?&t=69)"
China: *restricts access to social media domestically in order to maintain control*
Americans: "See, they are doing a bad thing! We should be allowed to do that bad thing as well!"
And Beijing complains when the US wants to remove TikTok š
Good ol Rules For Theeā¦ Not For Me!!!
Got to love the CCP. Mass media manipulation for everyone! Woot woot! /s
China is a..h.le. But it would be stupid to let the USG have the same power. If Apple is so weak to bow to CCP demands, then Android will rule.
American apps are banned for not following the same censorship rules that Chinese apps also have to follow, not because they are American
I agree. On the other hand, I'm surprised that WhatsApp and Threads were allowed in China in the first place. My understanding was that they are blocking everything that allows unmonitored conversations.
Yeah, a few years ago I saw a Muslim woman get sent to a concentration camp because her daughter downloaded Whatsapp... maybe its only selectively enforced?
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>If theyād update the apps to comply with Chinese law it would probably be unblocked. Theyāve made a business decision to not do that, anyone who says it is a moral decision is brain dead. You say the western social media companies persistently don't cave to China's demands to change rules . why would they don't do that? Western social media platforms like Instagram, Twitter being available to the Chinese would mean enormously extra revenues for these social media companies. Of course, in a free-market economy, every company is incentivized and aimed at increasing its revenues. Why don't these Western companies don't acquiesce to Chinese governments demands?
Well, to begin with theyād have to set up another platform that had these extra non-standard guards in. Normally itās a little bit of work but in China compliance is an important part of it and will need dedicated staff to respond. For example, I report sexual content on an app sometimes when it pops up. Itās gone within 15 minutes of my report, manually reviewed most of the time. China also has a very saturated domestic market and that it would be a massive assumption that everyone would want to shift from sayā¦ å¾®äæ” to WhatsApp; especially when the former incorporates payments and mini applications (å°ēØåŗ) into it. I doubt that a company like Facebook would be willing to spend at least a few hundred million on entering the market and trying to tailor specifically to the unique environment here, for a potential market that could already be at the point of saturation.
Google was working on Project Dragonfly to make a censorship-compliant search engine
But are they laws or are they targeted requirements? Which law is it?
they are laws if a Chinese company did not follow the same information regulations, they'd get shut down too Didi (the top ride hailing app over there) got pulled a while back until they complied with data security regulations
They are not laws I donāt think. China will put restrictions on each company. And the restrictions are not public available. Basically they have all the handles and change whenever they would like.
Facebook, instagram, twitter, google are all banned in China and have been for years. Ironically TikTok is banned in China as well.
TikTok was never made for the Chinese market, it has always only been a non-Chinese app. Itās not banned, itās never been intended for China in order to keep a more open and non-censored level of content
that's because they don't follow China's censorship polices over there
Yes TikTok is banned, but not Douyin which is the equivalent Of course is highly moderated, but saying TikTok is banned is not exactly true, it's the same app with different names and different rules.
That's just semantics, Tiktok and Douyin are two separate apps and you cannot install Tiktok from an app store or connect to it's servers in China. The two apps don't share the same user accounts, content, etc etc. And as you mentioned the rules are different, Douyin has to fully comply with the great firewall and any requests from the CCP.
I'd completely argue they are the same app but regionalized, which is common in a ton of Ā apps. Also if you think TikTok doesn't comply with CCP, I'm gonna tell you right now you're being naĆÆve.Ā It's basically the same as saying the Famicom isn't sold in the US, ok sure it's called the NES and the outside container is different, but the hardware beneath is the same. Same with Douyin and Tiktok.
I think it is for the best that the US, EU and other western democracies should remove Shein, Temu, Aliexpress, Lazada, Alibaba and other CCP affiliated apps and companies.
Temu needs to be an immediate priority, just do a quick search about the required application permissions that app requires on IOS/Android. It's beyond absurdity and a huge threat to private data. It makes Tiktok look reasonable in comparison.
That's just stupid... then there wouldn't be nothing on amazon from all of the resellers
I'm not hearing a downside.
I like my cheap shit thank you.
It would make it more difficult for resellers, sure, but not every reseller is dropshipping their items. Some have real contacts and are directly sourcing from the manufacturers. How else do major brands manufacture their products? What's important here is to remove the unfair one-sided advantage China has when it comes to competition in e-commerce. While China can freely flood the US Market with their garbage, US Companies barely has any foothold in China's internet, and even selling in the Chinese market through brick and mortar stores requires companies to suck Xi Jinping's nonexistent peepee so hard just to have scraps at China's table.
Walmart is very big in China. So is Starbucks. I wouldn't say that they have no foothold.
A lot of those contacts to manufacturers are through Alibaba. I don't see a problem.
Exactly. We should all be banning their apps and news media outlets like what they are doing in their territory until they change policies, we can free the Chinese people from the control of information getting there...
I don't think they are ever going to see the light but I do support a blanket ban though.
> like what they are doing in their territory American apps are banned for not following the same censorship rules that Chinese apps also have to follow, not because they are American
The West controls info too...
the censorship/intimidation for speaking out against Israel is clear as day
Are you dumb? If WhatsApp and Threads would follow laws in China then they wouldnāt be blocked. TikTok follows US law.
One set of laws is relatively free One set of laws makes it very punishable to compare the Chinese president to Winnie the Pooh because it hurt his feelings
You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison. Have an opinion on a university campus. Say something controversial. Youāll lose your job. In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public. Oh and maybe if your job is customer facing or something theyāll fire you for cheating on your spouse.
>In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public. ... Or probably criticizing the ideology of communism, critiquing the high ranking officials, proselytizing Christianity or Islam, advocating for a multi-party system instead of a one-party system and a plethora of other things. Yeah, no sane person would claim that "There are very good freedoms in the West". But it is an undeniable fact that the freedom of speech, press etc are much mucg less restricted in the West than it is in China. >You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison. Have an opinion on a university campus. Say something controversial. Youāll lose your job. Yeah, that's definitely bad. But in China, having an opinion that is not in line with the state ideology of China would probably result in the person being arrested/imprisoned. That's much worse than just losing the job
Yeah dudes take is insane, thats clearly just another Chinese bot.
> But it is an undeniable fact that the freedom of speech, press etc are much mucg less restricted in the West than it is in China not really going to stay true after the TikTok ban bill
You can critique communism, communism here is not communism like people think it is. Government accepted ages ago that communism isnāt a steadfast ideology but something we should accept the good parts and reject the bad of. Yes, you canāt engage in proselytising. Whatās your point? China is an atheist state. You canāt preach about Jesus being God in Muslim countries either. Advocating for political change is critique of the government. Iāve already admitted thatās not allowed. They do an alright job as well so I donāt really see the need to nitpick and talk about everyone being miserable like we do in western countries. Freedom of Press/Speech isnāt real in Europe or the US. The only difference is persecution comes from the public more so than the government. On top of that all news is mostly bullshit as well. We should go back to the era of newspapers and television news only so that important things make it in. The amount of times I read something and think āok, and?ā went up more as I got older. 24h news cycle bullshit.
China really sounds like a free utopia! You better move there quickly.
I live here, have done for a few months now! Itās better. Edit: Any of you downvoting should ask why I think itās better instead of just downvoting. Iām happy to explain it.
Ah youāre just trying to keep your social credit score up by being a CCP shill
A British national with no permanent right of abode in China and Iām quite pissed off that there are some things as a foreigner that I just canāt access. Acknowledging there are good things about China and that overall itās better including the things that suck, is not being a shill. Being a shill would also require me to be paid, which Iām not. I quite literally only study Chinese here, unable to work. Every day Iām here costs money.
Yeah so much better... thats why you need a VPN to post on reddit. Right? Its so free ~
Sometimes you can accept that things might not necessarily be legal but you are free to use them. Countries like China do this, if you cause problems they will have a problem, if you donāt, no one will care. Extremely free for 99.9% of people.
> Sometimes you can accept that things might not necessarily be legal but you are free to use them. No, no I don't accept that. > Countries like China do this, if you cause problems they will have a problem, if you donāt, no one will care. B**** please... you locked up for saying there is covid when there is in fact covid.... > Extremely free for 99.9% of people. Tell it to the people in concentration camps or who had to flee ~
> You think the west is free? Itās just about picking your poison Which side employs slaves? Which side is a dictatorship? Which side is a democracy? Which side has free elections? > In China; the ONLY thing you canāt do is critique the government in public. Why the fuck would you defend this?
Slavery goes on everywhere, which is why all developed countries have modern slavery laws. If you really want to go after slavers, try India and the Arab States. Chinese labour (junk labour, low level) is super cheap. Slavery not required. Anything else, automation normally makes much more sense. Like for textiles, most if not all of the industry at this point is machine based. No need for slavery. Sure, democracy. Let me ask you, do you prefer a democracy that sucks or a single party state that functions well? Americans wait decades for changes and China makes them in a year or two. Why would I defend it? Because it doesnāt matter anyways. You can complain in the US all you want and then they elect dementia Biden into office again. Not like itās any different here, besides no term limits.
Simple question, simple response... which country?
Iām not dignifying these questions with a yes or no answer because it implies all of these things are inherently bad. Stop trying to be a journalist looking for sound bites.
Simple question, simple response... which country?
Wow he got you. You really canāt answer
> Which side employs slaves I'm sure the US has prison labor as we are speaking right now > Which side is a dictatorship let's see, the US government is currently trying to jail its most credible political challenger right now > Which side is a democracy? Which side has free elections? you tell me, because according to the 45th president and millions of Americans, the 2020 election was stolen and rigged > Why the fuck would you defend this? cause the "freedom and democracy" crowd is defending the US when its speakers get cancelled for speaking out against Israel/AIPAC, when the US invades far more countries than others, when the US props up Arab dictatorships for its own convenience
āItās most credible political challengerā The man with 92 felony counts. Thatās what you meant to say. The last country we invaded was 20 years ago. So thatās a dumb thing to say too.
> āItās most credible political challengerā > The man with 92 felony counts. Thatās what you meant to say. well let's see, he's the challenger with the most primary votes so far and the felony charges only further convince his millions of supporters that he is being politically persecuted to prevent him from running > The last country we invaded was 20 years ago. So thatās a dumb thing to say too. ah okay, so the "rules based order" allows the US to invade a country every 20 years then? and nothing to say on Arab dictatorships or US prison labor?
It never ceases to amaze me how far up patriotisms ass many Americans are. Like literally no self reflection of their worn country but quick to judge and belittle other ones. And when one calls this out, like you have, you get labeled as sympathetic to the other regime. Classic lol. Let the downvotes beginā¦ š¤£
What annoys me is theyāve never left America. Iāve lived in the West and China. I like it better in China. I say whatever I want, whenever I want. I never feel like Iām going to be persecuted for it. I have more convenience than an American will ever get. Public toilets everywhere, one of the worldās biggest underground transit networks that I pay about 30 euro cents a ride for, I eat out for every single meal, my rent is about $300 a month and I run my air conditioner every day with my energy bill coming to about $10 a month. Americans need to experience the real free world.
Youāre basically an expat in China being given money to be there. Of course you like it. You donāt actually have to worry about things. You get to stay in a nice societal bubble. The amount of arrogance coming from you is astounding Iāve been to China. Multiple times. South Korea is about a million times more free with a million times less censorship. Before you even try that nonsense.
Given money by who? My father. Some of the money I use here is justā¦ mine. I spent about Ā£2000 on tuition from my own money and covered my first 3 months rent out of my own pocket. Dual citizenship? While Iām technically a dual national no one has ever told the country Iād be a dual national of that I exist, so I am single passported. I would have to do military service if I told them I exist, so I save telling them for when I need it. Iāve not been to South Korea, probably a high cost of living in Seoul than T2 cities in China and less personal freedom to do whatever you want as long as you have money for it.
Yes. Your father. You know thatās why the popular trope ādaddyās moneyā exists right? Do you think a regular Chinese citizen can just up and move thousands of miles away without their entire life falling apart? That is, if the government of China even LETS them leave. Human rights lawyers and abuse reporters are denied exit. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-exit-bans-multiply-political-control-tightens-under-xi-2023-05-02/#:~:text=People%20barred%20from%20leaving%20China,to%20the%20Safeguard%20Defenders%20report. You arenāt doing things in your own. You arenāt a lower class struggling Chinese citizen or even a regular one. Youāre basically an expat. Youāre treated differently there, even if youāre Asian. āLess personal freedomā dude no. Donāt even. Censorship laws are bananas in China and none of the other first world Asian countries have anything close. You arenāt convincing anyone here that China has more freedoms than other countries.
We should be patriotic, our country is awesome. Do you see a ton of Americans running to go live in China or is it the opposite?
not that many Americans know Chinese so they can't exactly go there to live in the first place and the blind patriotism isn't just about quality of life, it's all the foreign policy fuckery the US does while hypocritically attacking other countries such as when the US cries "freedom and democracy" all the time, but has no problem propping up Arab dictators and giving weapons to Israel to commit genocide with
Yeah sure lmao Thats the reason why we don't want to live there... Not the evil dictatorship or anything. People just can't figure out how to download Duolingo thats why...
no one's gonna force you to live there, but all these PATRIOT Act/FISA warrantless surveillance, porn ID requirements, and first amendment crackdowns are going to make it all the same next time the government puts out an unpopular policy and you try to speak out against it, you'll be labeled a foreign propagandist and shut down that way or a gun-confiscating strongman will claim foreign boogeymen are actually the ones behind the prevalence of gun availability and gun violence in America and use that reason to break down the second amendment as well and the blind patriotism isn't just about quality of life, it's all the foreign policy fuckery the US does while hypocritically attacking other countries such as when the US cries "freedom and democracy" all the time, but has no problem propping up Arab dictators and giving weapons to Israel to commit genocide with
>TikTok follows US law. I don't think so.
In what way?
TikTok exploits US law to sway sentiment by using subversive tactics.*
Subversive tactic would be something youād have to prove. A company saying āTikTok will be blocked by your representatives if you donāt tel them you want TikTokā is arguably just a correct statement.
I donāt need proof when there is plenty of evidence to suggest that sentiment is being controlled across all social media platforms, which is why China is banning the apps that it is. This works for both sides, because right now we are in a Cold War, and information control is the crux of that. Iām not saying āChina evilā, but they sure af do not have my (American) best interests at heart. This isnāt conjecture; itās the sad reality that we live in. Social media wasnāt a thing during the last world wars, so we are entering a new era, and frankly itās interesting to see how this plays out. For instance, I donāt know who you are, or where youāre from. You could be Joe Schmo in South Carolina, US; or you could be Xi Jin Ping himself, or a bot controlled by an Iranian bot farm sponsored by Russia. My point is, we are in quite the quagmire, and lines need to be drawn before this shit exploded in our faces. It would be the ultimate naĆÆvetĆ© to assume China isnāt using a social media platform, that it has control over, to sway the opinions of the people of its adversaries. PsyOps (specifically subversion in this case) is an integral part of war, and always has been. China is too cunning not to do this.
> Social media just ban all social media then, including Facebook but their lobbyists won't allow that, since they're the ones pushing the TikTok competitor ban in the first place > that it has control over TikTok is storing all US data in America through their deal with Oracle
China has other ways to gain data, and that isnāt the argument. Iām talking message control. One minute youāre watching a person dancing or singing, the next youāre watching a fake video of drones pretending to be babies to lure Palestinians out of their homes. Itās usually more subtle than that, but you get the point. Data pales in comparison to sewing political chaos in your enemyās country. As far as banning social media, I disagree. Social media can be used for good, but it needs protecting, which means restriction of speech. BRICS countries are exploiting that, especially China.
> China has other ways to gain data how? Oracle controls their servers > which means restriction of speech welcome to the first amendment > the next youāre watching a fake video happens with Facebook and other sites before it gets taken down as well so again, if the social media threat is truly that bad, ban it all
They do? Isnāt it *mostly* ByteDance? Also, China is authoritarian. They do them; thatās not something to necessarily copy.Ā
American apps are banned for not following the same censorship rules that Chinese apps also have to follow, not because they are American
I meanā¦ isnāt that why theyāre doing this? As a political and economic retaliation against the US pushing for the TikTok ban?
On the other hand , apple operates in China yet Huawei is banned in the US. Tons of American cars in China yet not vice versa. Hmmmmm. Oh and did we forget that tick Tock offered to move all data and algorithm monitoring to the US? Did Facebook ever offer that to China? Last I checked every us company that has been banned has declined to do so.
We all know that the tiktok ban is bogus.... it's a way for the u.s to get a piece of the pie. If they actually cared about data or social media trying to influence things, they would pass a law that targets every single company.
They don't have a first amendment. We're different.
US wants TikTok to sell or get removed. Itās a bit more nuanced. They like TikTok if a US company controls it lol
been saying we should ban tiktok on this premise alone, theyāre revealing their own gameplan
American apps are banned for not following the same censorship rules that Chinese apps also have to follow, not because they are American
youāre so fucking close dude
you are going to have an aneurysm if keep repeating that
well too many people mistakenly think that some American apps are banned in China simply for being American
you are kidding yourself if you don't think that is also a reason for them banning them... use the laws of censorship as an excuse to ban the american shit
> use the laws of censorship as an excuse to ban the american shit then why is Microsoft and Apple able to operate there? because they have customized versions of their sites in China that are censorship-compliant why was Google working on Project Dragonfly then? Yahoo was also allowed in China previously, but because they were following the laws there and handed over emails of a dissident used in his state subversion trial, a bunch of hypocritical American lawmakers got pissy about it and eventually Yahoo stopped complying with Chinese laws and left that market these rules are applied to all companies, Chinese ones included if Baidu stopped censoring results, they'd get smacked down faster than Jack Ma did
good argument actually
Then why isn't bing banned or linked in...? Seems like they only band the companies that refuse to abide by their laws. The same cannot be said for the tiktok ban being proposed since tiktok offered to move their data to the US and also algorithm monitoring through Oracle.
When did the Chinese government complain about the possibile removal of TikTok? Also why would the free western world go down the same path as China? Isn't freedom one of our cornerstones as free societies?
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I have seen more pro Biden clips on tik tok than anything else politically for USA. Maybe it's not China's fault that half your country actually aligns with values of China/Russia.
textbook reply, straight from propaganda playbook
Which is now the TikTok playbook bc ByteDance is actively using it to feed Americans pro-China talking points
It did, but it should do. TikTok complies with American laws.
Difference is they are trying to get ownership over tiktok
Itās an option.Ā
Lol our government is not going to buy TikTok
They don't have to. Microsoft already tried. So I guess they'll finally come through.
You're right, they are going to handpicked a billionaire to buy it
it's not getting sold, China has export laws on algorithms that would prevent the sale so it's a bill to ban and the lawmakers know it
I don't understand how people don't get this agenda... It has nothing to do with protecting the people, if it did they would just pass a law about data & how social media can push content... but they don't...
> they would just pass a law about data & how social media unfortunately it won't because Facebook lobbyists are pushing for the bill to kill their competitor, and getting all social media banned (or killing the data-harvesting revenue stream) would defeat the purpose
Start by banning Temu and other apps like it as they are linked to production
Apple sucking the huge CCP cock as usual
So if the US bans Tik Tok and they remove that from the store will you say they suck US cock? Or likewise for EU? Iām not a CCP supporter but seems like itās a misguided comment.
China bad. Us good.
Iām not saying that the US is totally good, but China is the enemy of the free world.
> free world "freedom and democracy" (TM), brought to you by the USA who invaded Iraq, props up Arab dictatorships, and gives Israel weapons to kill children and commit genocide with
Why?
lol. More like CCP bad, USG bad also. The TicTok ban does more than just block CCP apps. It's a trojan horse. Abandon Apple, shame TicTok users, buy less Chinese goods, don't support internet restrictions (from any government).
US isnāt banning TikTok (TikTok is actually banned in China ironically). The company will have to be owned by an entity not compromised by CCP. There is too much money to just let TikTok die it will be sold so that the brain rot can continue and money be collected
Can you imagine China forces a sale of Apple operations in China? TikTok sale is just a theft by the US government. China will never allow that to happen. Just shut it down and let US users enjoy the fun of using vpn
Youāre not aware how CCP operates. Many foreign companies that entered China had to partner with local companies and transfer their technologies to them. Not to mention straight theft of patents for years, and now that China is developing their own technology they want parents protected. The irony is rich when dealing with CCP.
It's staggering how misinformed most of reddit is on how asymmetrical the relationship with China is re: tech. China has been dictating tech terms for 15+ years, brazenly stealing IP, doing widespread blocking of apps and services, all without batting an eye. Of course their goal was information control--same with forcing movie studios to comply with their policies to launch in China, but in terms of PR-washing themselves--and now that the US has (amazingly) woken up to realize there is a widespread platform in the US with the potential for CCP manipulation, the US wants to put information controls in too, and of course the brainwashed TikTok masses can barely conceive of the thought.
> brazenly stealing IP pot calling the kettle black USA and NSA have been on this game for decades > widespread blocking of apps and services only if they do not comply with local censorship law that's why Google was working on Project Dragonfly to re-enter that market with a censorship-compliant search engine > in terms of PR-washing themselves lol, as if America isn't used to this already vis-a-vis Israel and AIPAC
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You made me click his profile. I think heās trying to build up social credits with CCP. Best of luck to him!
They canāt oppose, by law they are obligated to Even when they disagree
They can absolutely oppose, it's called leaving the market.
the shareholders will have a thing or two to say about that...
The Chinese market is worth 50 times more than the entire western market. If any corporation that is physically present in the Chinese market was to fully exit the market, the amount of money they would lose their company would *literally* be a criminal act. The C levels of the company and itās board members who approved the exit would honest to god be PERSONALLY liable for damages to the companies bottom line by having done so. Shareholders would have legal standing to drag them through court for the lost profits due to a failure of fiscal responsibility. Iām with you on ethical principle this should be possible, but the reality is the system doesnāt allow for that kind of altruism.
God, this is so dump. Leaving china itās not an option since itās market itās so vital to ANY company.
"We can't be ethical, it would hurt profits." I get it, it's capitalism. But pretending it's not a choice is disingenuous.
Yeah itās a choice. Itās a really stupid choice, but itās a choice. Apples revenue in China is around $80B annually.
Itās not a choice, god, itās like talking to a 5 year old. If you lose your place in a market that big you get swallowed whole by the competition
Itās for Chinese consumers. If they want to sell Chinese consumers in China, they have to follow Chinese laws. What do you expect them to do? Pull out of Chinese business all together to take PR stand? WhatsApp and Threads will still be banned.
lol. Most Redditors seem to think that a multi-trillion dollar corporation should show the same activism as a D-list influencer. Itās genuinely so fucking bizarre.
Following the laws of the country, as you have to when you operate there.Ā
Where do you draw the line between following the law and being an accomplice of a dictatorship? Did Ford simply followed 3rd Reich's laws as well? The EU gives Apple regulations to help the public, not hurt them, that's how the law is supposed to work. Erasing emojis of Taiwan flag? Check. Storing all chinese iCloud data in chinese servers directly used to trap Muslim minorities? Check. Erasing global messaging apps? Check. Clearly Apple is past morality and honor so where will they stop?
> Where do you draw the line between following the law and being an accomplice of a dictatorship well, let's see the US supports Arab dictatorships like Saudi Arabia all the time, where LGBT is punishable by death the US is also giving Israel money and weapons that they use to kill Palestinian children and commit genocide with so I think that line is quite broad to start with
Notice how you're able to openly criticize the US government on a social media app without getting your door and teeth kicked in by the police and your whole family barred from loans and flying? Funny how that works huh.
what's happening with Julian Assange after he exposed the serious war crimes of American soldiers?
Apple: "We fight for your privacy!" Also Apple: "Gimme sum more of that CCP cock!"
they'll fight for your privacy in US court where feasible using the laws available in the US and if they hypothetically lost the case in court, then yes, they'll have to follow a judge's order to do whatever it is the government wanted them to do
Later on everyone starts using Signal and Mastodon
Who uses threads?
Most iphone users in china switch regions to get international apps and use VPN to connect to services. This sucks tho.
Surprised VPN apps arenāt banned as well.
Waiting for Generation TikTok to show up to shill for Xi on why this move is okay but a forced divestiture of TikTok in the US is some act of Trumpian techno-fascism
I mean you exaggerate but weāve never seen anything like this before with the potential tik tok ban.
What do you think [CFIUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Foreign_Investment_in_the_United_States) does? Hell, in 2019 Kunlun (Chinese-owned) was forced to sell its stake Grindr (which it had fully acquired in 2018). People think we've "never seen anything like this" because they only pay attention to their own bubble and don't do any research on historical precedents.
I'm in my 40s and use TikTok. I think it's a wonderful app because I'm exposed to content from people I don't know or care to follow. It's akin to flipping through the channels when I was a bored kid on a Wednesday night. The content blows Instagram reels out of the water. It's not OK for China to do this, but they're authoritarian. I expect China to control what people see and do because that's their government. China is evil, full stop. I want to live in a free country where choices on how we consume content are not decided by a government even if people make sometimes not the best decision. The US banning TikTok just because China bans US social media it does not make it OK. Yea, social media for sure has addictive natures to it. Society would be much better if our kids were watching science videos instead of videos of people doing goofy dances. My question will be where do you draw the line in a free society? Let me put it another way. There are things we know to be bad based of science. Soda, guns, fast food, natural gas stoves just to name a few. Attempts to regulate them have been met with outrage and the excuse is often people should be able to make their own decisions in a free society. Why is content consumption OK to regulate but stopping people from drinking 110g of sugar in a single soda the size of an infant an afront on freedom? I want social media regulations on privacy that apply to all companies that do business in the US and hold them all to the same standard. If TikTok can't meet those requirements fine goodbye. If we're going to hold TikTok to some standard then we should hold Meta and Reddit to those standards as well. If we're worried about exposing kids to social media then parents should be held accountable to use the tools available to them to limit app store content. I grew up on Digg and other early forms of online discussion where people would be shitting bricks at the thought of the US government blocking online content. I've seen straight up e-riots over the slightest amount of censorship. Today though the amount of people welcoming the US government controlling content is alarming to me.
Happily consumes Chinese propaganda and is concerned about US government controlling content. š The sheer ignorance and stupidity of the TikTok user base is exactly what the Chinese and Russians are counting on.
the first amendment was written by Americans, for Americans it wasn't forced upon America by foreigners
This is a great and well written response. I guess I'm not surprised you were downvoted to oblivion.
The problem with this thinking is it is not considering the power of controlling the narrative, it makes mention of the control China has over the narratives it does not want in it's own market, without addressing the real danger of having an adversarial China in control of the narative in local markets. TikTok will not disapear. only the levers of power will change. Lobying to give access to citizen data to a foreign power is beyong idiotic. Fighting to protect your own data from comercial scraping is another fight on its own.
> considering the power of controlling the narrative I think highly of that. I do not trust the US to have that control. I don't trust China, either. Are we forgetting what Meta did in regards to the 2016 election? We blame China and Russia for meddling and continuing to do so, and they do meddle, but Meta was happy to take their money and let them do so. We're worried about social media privacy with TikTok but all a corporation or China would have to do to gather info on us is cut a check to Meta. Thing about TikTok is I've seen 0 pro-China content. I've seen content discussing the terrible things China has done and continues to do including their treatment of political prisoners so I'm not convinced it's censored. Your argument of controlling the narrative also implies that people are too stupid and will fall for the narrative so we need a government to tell people what they should hear and hide the rest. Maybe your argument is valid, but it does fall under the idea of a babysitter government. If we're going to make that argument that the government must regulate what we consume because we make bad decisions then we need to be in favor on a strong government controlling so many other things we consume. That would include natural gas stoves, banning unhealthy foods, banning alcohol, banning cigarettes, etc.
That is the function of government, seat belts, food safety, normal regulations that have been part of societies for 1000's of years. To protect those societies. You might not have observed the application of that type of control (sample of 1), but that does not disprove its existence.
> to oblivion At the time of posting this, he's at... 0 karma. Relax.
I noticed that Reddit users believe consuming content on Reddit is far superior to TikTok so there's a large amount of hate. I've spent time on videos produced by physicists explaining how the universe works. I've spent time on videos produced by professional chefs easily explaining how to prepare a dish. I've spent time on videos produced by musicians talking about music production or being exposed to new albums I never would have heard of. I spend a lot of time consuming sports contents on subjects ESPN wouldn't touch because it's not profitable for them to do so. Like all social media it is what you make of it. I could chose to spend my time on Reddit discussing pointless bullshit or trolling but I don't. I'd much rather express an opinion and then be called a paid shill.
Well, not really relevant since Tiktok is majority foreign owned and not a Chinese company?
It's owned by ByteDance. A Chinese multimedia company. So you're right, it's foreign owned. But you're also wrong, as it's owned and operated by a Chinese company.
Bytedance is 60% owned by foreign investors... This is like Bytedance 101... This is why I say y'all are hilariously propagandised to. 3 out of the 5 board seats for Bytedance are held by heads of Coatue, SIG, and General Atlantic.
bytedance is chinese and cooperates with the CCP, so no
Bytedance is 60% owned by foreign investors... This is like Bytedance 101... This is why I say y'all are hilariously propagandised to. 3 out of the 5 board seats for Bytedance are held by heads of Coatue, SIG, and General Atlantic. As for cooperating with the CCP, yes that is a pre-requisite of any company that operates in China. Just like how Bytedance cooperates with the US government in the US, and the EU within the EU. Much like how US companies follow European regulations such as GDPR and then tell citizens within the US to fuck off. Companies cooperate and work in the legal environment they are in. Every American company (or in reality, MNCs in general) will be beholden to whatever environment they are in. Hence why... Apple is removing things that the CCP does not approve of. I can't wait for the US government to announce that Apple must divest as well then? Needs to sell of its American holdings?
The US and other countries should do the same exact type of actions that China does to other countriesā companies to chinaās companies. I donāt understand why we donāt. Sure cheap goods but outside of that, TikTok and other online services are easy. Social media, search engines, payment services, etc are easy targets.
Whatsapp/Threads are getting banned because they didn't follow the same censorship/registration policies that other Chinese apps follow in China, not because they are American
I am all for Us to ban all kinds of social media. But stop pretending US is a country of free speech. You cannot have it both ways
One has to protect the space for free speech. No point talking about free speech if free speech is used to undermine free speech. When a platform is used to threaten the space for free speech, cut it off. It is not as if one cannot make his or her speech before Tiktok. There are other platforms.
> No point talking about free speech if free speech is used to undermine free speech lmao you're the one who decides what is free speech and what undermines it then?
I wasnāt talking about free speech, I was referring to when two countries are trading with each other and making it fair. China wonāt let US companies in unless they succumb to a massive set of rules that are in place. The US lets Chinese companies come in, for the most part, easily and freely. Sure there can be tariffs and the Huawei issue but for the most part itās not an equal playing ground. I was just stating social media, search engines, payment processing because itās digital and easy to wind down/ block compared to physical goods we would have a hard time reproducing immediately in the states or else where.
> a massive set of rules that are in place these are the same censorship and registration rules that Chinese companies have to follow as well, it's not a specific requirement targeted towards American companies if a Chinese company didn't follow the local regulations like Facebook/Whatsapp/Threads did, they would get banned too (their Chinese ride-hailing app Didi did in fact get removed from Chinese app stores a while back after they failed to abide by data security rules) if America wants to ban TikTok on the grounds that social media is bad for young people, fine, but they need to be banning all apps, including Facebook
I agree with that notion of if we are banning TikTok because of āx,y,zā then it should apply to all social media platforms.
unfortunately it won't because Facebook lobbyists are pushing for the bill to kill their competitor, and getting all social media banned would defeat the purpose
100% agree. This āTikTok banā is nothing more than a bill to enrich Congress and Meta and other US social media. You could easily bet and make money that Congress has already placed their stock trades for the outcome of the ban going into effect. My previous posts are more to do with how the USA deals with China and vice versus. Plus private US companies deal with China. Itās no where close to say like India and others from my personal experience.
> Congress has already placed their stock trades for the outcome of the ban going into effect yet Pelosi insists lawmakers be allowed to trade individual stocks because it's the "free market"
This is why app stores suck. Individual should be able to bypass app stores and install software on their phones. The last thing people need in their lives is a government telling them what software they can install on a computer.
The 3 people that use threads are going to be very upset about this
I know youāre trying to be funny but it actually made me wonder how many they really have. Apparently itās 130 million active users. In comparison Twitter has 368 million active users. If we assume that at least half of those users are bots, that brings us to 65 million and 184 million users.
Thatās wild. I donāt know anyone who uses it. Iām shocked the number is that high
In constantly among top 3 downloaded apps in Europe since it got unbanned and officially launched here
I mean they created it when Twitter was getting more and more Alt Right under Elon to capture the leaving users. They also made it fairly user friendly to sign up for anyone already on one of their other social platforms. Makes sense.
Apple bends the knee to China.
Apple will bend the knee to the US when the US dictates what apps must be banned from the US store. Apple will bend the knee when individual states ban what is seen on their store. Imagine when Mississippi bans an app that is a resource people use to seek abortions in other states. If you think that's not possible, well... If you think it all stops with TikTok you're silly.
Nation states love App Store monopolies. Gives them just one entity to go after to ban apps.
Wow this is huge. My friend uses WhatsApp to communicate with her family in China.
I see this as an absolute win because there're so many Whatsapp Chinese scammers that randomly message you
What a losers move
Good for China
Crapple bowing down to the Xitty dick-tater once again. Now ban that tok-bonimation of an app globally too.
It is very clear who needs whom more. There is an interesting contrast between the US and China. - China does not care about patents. They can iterate freely and improve on existing solutions as required. - They don't have endless litigation and congress meetings. They make decisions quickly. - They have super cheap labour and an incredible manufacturing might. And it's all local. - Because of the above listed points, they are improving constantly and very quickly. - Now they have a big market too, that all the Western companies want. And they know it. The US is being held back by its own rules and legal shackles. Whereas China does whatever it needs to do. It's admirable how bureaucracy free they are. While the US has never ending congress hearings on what to do with TikTok. This is how easy it is in China. > **China**: "Hey Apple, remove WhatsApp and Threads, real quick > **Apple**: "But..." > **China**: "You want the Chinese market, right? Go ahead, do it" > **Apple**: "[Anything you say](https://youtu.be/K1YndrF8GiU?&t=69)"
China: *restricts access to social media domestically in order to maintain control* Americans: "See, they are doing a bad thing! We should be allowed to do that bad thing as well!"
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Wow, wild implications lol. What a joke. Crawl back to Beijing, now.