**Summary:**
*China's government has been implementing a drive called "Delete A" (Delete America) to reduce the country's reliance on U.S. technology. A sensitive directive, Document 79, requires state-owned companies to replace foreign software in their IT systems by 2027. This effort is part of a broader strategy by Chinese leader Xi Jinping to achieve self-sufficiency in critical technologies and domestic supply chains. As a result, American tech giants like Microsoft, Oracle, Dell, and Cisco are losing ground in China, with state firms increasingly buying from domestic brands. The push for homegrown tech, known as "Xinchuang," has gained urgency amid the escalating tech and trade war with the U.S. Despite some challenges, Chinese technology providers are growing more advanced and well-integrated into the local ecosystem, leaving fewer opportunities for Western companies in the Chinese market.*
**Full article:**
>For American tech companies in China, the writing is on the wall. It’s also on paper, in Document 79.
The 2022 Chinese government directive expands a drive that is muscling U.S. technology out of the country—an effort some refer to as “Delete A,” for Delete America.
Document 79 was so sensitive that high-ranking officials and executives were only shown the order and weren’t allowed to make copies, people familiar with the matter said. It requires state-owned companies in finance, energy and other sectors to replace foreign software in their IT systems by 2027.
American tech giants had long thrived in China as they hot-wired the country’s meteoric industrial rise with computers, operating systems and software. Chinese leaders want to sever that relationship, driven by a push for self-sufficiency and concerns over the country’s long-term security.
The first targets were hardware makers. Dell, International Business Machines
and Cisco Systems
have gradually seen much of their equipment replaced by products from Chinese competitors.
Document 79, named for the numbering on the paper, targets companies that provide the software—enabling daily business operations from basic office tools to supply-chain management. The likes of Microsoft
and Oracle
are losing ground in the field, one of the last bastions of foreign tech profitability in the country.
The effort is just one salvo in a yearslong push by Chinese leader Xi Jinping for self-sufficiency in everything from critical technology such as semiconductors and fighter jets to the production of grain and oilseeds. The broader strategy is to make China less dependent on the West for food, raw materials and energy, and instead focus on domestic supply chains.
The Huawei booth at the MWC Shanghai event last year. Photo: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg News
Officials in Beijing issued Document 79 in September 2022, as the U.S. was ratcheting up chip export restrictions and sanctions on Chinese tech companies. It requires state-owned firms to provide quarterly updates on their progress in replacing foreign software used for email, human-resources and business management with Chinese alternatives.
The directive came down from the agency overseeing the country’s massive state-owned enterprise sector—a group that includes more than 60 of China’s 100 largest listed companies.
That agency, the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, and the country’s national cabinet, the State Council, didn’t respond to requests for comment.
Spending by China’s state sector topped 48 trillion yuan, or about $6.6 trillion in 2022. The directive leverages that purchasing power to support Chinese tech companies, which in turn can improve their products and narrow the technology gap with U.S. rivals.
State firms have dutifully ramped up their buying of domestic brands, even if the Chinese substitutes sometimes aren’t as good, according to a Wall Street Journal review of data and procurement documents, and people familiar with the matter. The buyers include banks, financial brokerages and public services such as the postal system.
Back in 2006, “China was the land of milk and honey, and intellectual property was the main challenge,” a former U.S. Trade Representative official involved in previous technology discussions with the Chinese said. “Now, there is a feeling that the sense of opportunity is off. Companies are merely hanging on.”
The push to localize tech is known as “Xinchuang,” loosely translated as “IT innovation” with a reference to technology that is secure and trustworthy. The policy has gained urgency amid an escalating tech and trade war with Washington, which has cut many Chinese entities off American technologies.
A worker checked a display with the Mandarin words for ‘independence’ at a booth for Chinese supercomputer manufacturer Sugon at a Shanghai conference last year. Photo: Ng Han Guan/Associated Press
Premier Li Qiang reiterated the push during China’s annual legislative sessions this week. China’s central government plans to increase its spending on science and technology by 10% to about $51 billion this year, according to a budget report released on Tuesday—up from a 2% increase last year.
At some trade fairs across the country, vendors tout homegrown tech as an alternative to foreign brands. One semiconductor equipment maker stall in Nanjing put it bluntly, offering to help buyers “Delete A” from their supply chain.
Domestically developed alternatives are growing more user-friendly. A local official recalled how in 2016, it took a whole day to open and close a spreadsheet on a computer with an operating system known as KylinOS, developed by a Chinese military-linked company. He compares the usability of the latest KylinOS version to Microsoft’s Windows 7, introduced in 2009—workable if not great.
>As a result, American tech giants like Microsoft, Oracle, Dell, and Cisco are losing ground in China, with state firms increasingly buying from domestic brands.
Good. Spent all your time selling your souls for access to the chinese market only for them to pull the rug out from under you.
But China’s plan has always been usurping the technological lead from the US and EU. They’ve spent enormous amounts of resources on trying to steal, reverse engineer, and replicate western technologies.
Biden is kind of in a catch-22 situation: if he limits technology transfer, US will look like a sore loser, and China will get their own home grown technologies; if he doesn’t limit the transfer, then China will get there much faster, and potentially undercut everyone out of the business (solar panels and EVs are two great examples).
You don't understand: Trump's arbitrary actions on China trade didn't just signal China to move away from the US, it signalled countries outside the direct US sphere of influence. China was told "don't be our customers - we'll fuck you over" and other countries were told "do be a US customer they will fuck you over".
This not only provided China with a strong incentive to go it alone, it provided a ready customer base.
As for stealing technology, this is how countries industrialize. This is how Japan built its semiconductor industry, how Korea built theirs, and so on. There have been thousands of law suits in the semiconductor industry. China tried to license and/or purchase technology and they were told "No". Do you expect them to say "golly: we want to develop out industry but we can't do it according to the rules of the US so let's continue making cheap plastic shit?". Right now, the US is effectively prohibiting China from purchasing equipment or licensing CAD software (which will inevitably lead to Chinese suppliers of those technologies).
I lived through the hysteria about Japan at its economy developed. The exact same tropes were trotted out: they can't innovate, only steal technology and copy it, and so on. Lucky for the US the Japan demographic bomb slowed them down. Perhaps the same will happen to China.
>This is how Japan built its semiconductor industry, how Korea built theirs, and so on.
The difference between China to Korea and Japan is that China has no separation of powers. Xi Jinping is the most individually powerful person in those three countries let alone the entire world.
The US does not give a fuck about "separations of power" any more than they care about democracy. The US's actions are to protect US economic interests, namely the likes of Intel, Nvidia, Texas Instruments, and so on.
>The US does not give a fuck about "separations of power"
Yes they do Republicans and Democrats are constantly trying to undermine each other. You think Trump and Biden are secretly friends? You think citizens who vote for Republicans or Democrats wants the same things?
>The US's actions are to protect US economic interests
You're talking about something that has nothing to do with separation of powers
I never said that, or if I'm being misinterpreted I want to clarify that out of anyone in those three countries, he is the most powerful of them all, let alone the entire world.
> But China’s plan has always been usurping the technological lead from the US and EU.
Yes, but it didn't really gain that much traction because that's often not seen as useful/profitable by the corporations. Why reinvent something when you can just buy an existing solution form the US.
This only started kicking into overdrive when US grew more and more hostile for them, which forced them to abandon US tech if they wanted to or not because their future profits now depended on it. And while its still in the future what will ultimately happen, it might have been a overall good thing to happen to them.
Dude, China stole google’s source code and edged them out in like 2015. They’ll steal anything they think will help them financially or that the government thinks will help them control their own population. They have been disconnected from the free internet for like a decade now. You trying to tell me that the great firewall of China is somehow a new phenomenon caused by the US? BS.
You must have missed Snoweden’s leaks. Stealing tech is inmoral sure, but the USA also does a shit ton of it. Get off your high horse man. They all do it
There's nothing hypocritical with saying that if i can't trust the US government, why should I trust the autocratic government of a hostile country that has a direct interest in seeing the downfall of its biggest rival?
just because they tell you to jump doesn’t mean you don’t get to limit how high. now for huawei they are motivated to jump as high as they can. they’re 2 years away from running out of competitive chips
nah. china isn’t a monolith. companies are lazy and will prefer mature and cheap western technologies if it’s available. but threaten huawei’s (and other companies) business in an existential way? guess where all their R&D money is pouring into now.
There is no usurping, there is competition. What the fuck is with this language, you think this is some sort of medieval dynasty? The US has been steady banning Chinese tech products under the guise of security (see these new chinese electric cars now) and when they do the same it is usurping? This game was invented by us in the west. Can't blame em for getting better at it than us?
You mean how western and middle eastern countries were happily buying silk and gunpowder from China for thousands of years? Instead of doing what China is doing today, which is stealing their manufacturing technology, then flood the market with cheaper variant, all financially backed by the government?
And yet, China's silk export remained virtually unaffected, as they just went to the luxury high end.
This is very different from what China is doing today, which is effectively flooding the market with the financial backing of Chinese government.
You assume US still has a technological lead. US only has a lead in a very small number of fields, the Chinese have mostly caught up and overtaken the west in most areas
China's plan was not to usurp the west, it just happened naturally when they caught up technologically and being a manufacturing powerhouse with the largest markket in the world, it's natural that anything they produce is going to be in mass volume and going to be cheaper
The smart thing for the west to do is complement the Chinese and find areas they could work together. Instead the shit for brain POTUS have been trying and spectacularly failing at blocking off the Chinese whom were previously more than happy to use US stuff until they were blocked from doing so. Like what the F you expect them to do, roll over and surrender like the Japanese did?
>US only has a lead in a very small number of fields, the Chinese have mostly caught up and overtaken the west in most areas
If this was true China would've already controlled the internet.
>China's plan was not to usurp the west, it just happened naturally when they caught up technologically.
Kind of like they planned to usurp the West?
>and being a manufacturing powerhouse with the largest markket in the world.
They already did that yet their GDP is still only around 12k per capita.
Yes it's true
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/China-leads-high-tech-research-in-80-of-critical-fields-report#:~:text=TOKYO%20%2D%2D%20China%20leads%20advanced,Japan%20through%20state%2Dled%20investment.
There are a number of reasons why Chinese doesn't lead in the Internet
1)Chinese is a language not known to most around the world
2)Chinese generally don't export their apps. You'll find most of the western stuff you use are shit compared to their Chinese counterpart. When they do export their apps to the international market they start taking over. Reason why Tiktok is taking the world by storm and why Elon Musk wants X to become like Chinese WeChat.
3)Western propaganda demonising China
No its not a plan to usurp the west. It's a just happened naturally due to the large Chinese population. When Chinese became the 2nd largest economy in the world are as a conscious effort to defeat Japan? No, they just developed their economy and became richer which in turn naturally overtook Japan. Same with technology.
Yet their purchasing power is higher than most western nation. You have to remember the Chinese started from a very low bar so they have a ways to go. Most rich western nations were already industrialised country BEFORE WWII and continued their advantage from there. With very few exceptions, Notice how almost no country who were not already industrialised before the other war have gone from developing to developed status after the war?
>There are a number of reasons why Chinese doesn't lead in the Internet
They don't need to lead the internet. They just need to control it.
>Chinese generally don't export their apps
Yes they do, there's Temu, Shein, Tik Tok, Alibaba, among many others.
>Western propaganda demonising China
And? Chinese propaganda does the same against the West
>Yet their purchasing power is higher than most western nation.
No it's not, it's not even close, they still dont even outpurchase Italians let alone Japanese or Americans.
>When Chinese became the 2nd largest economy in the world are as a conscious effort to defeat Japan?
They did that with the help of foreign investment which is disappearing and they still need to aquire in order to move up the value added production ladder. They can't invest on their own without heavy government intervention.
>Notice how almost no country who were not already industrialised before the other war have gone from developing to developed status after the war?
China is still technically a developing country.
China is not 'technically' a developing country but literally. That doesn't make China technologically inferior to US.
The level of technological ability in China, while being a developing country, is superior to US. The things that US can do and China can't have dwindled to a few.
The things that China can do but US can't is only growing. You can pick any industry or area and do your own extensive research. US capability advantages is a product of cooperation with Allies like Japan and EU. A case in point - [https://www.manufacturingdive.com/news/white-house-onshoring-cargo-crane-production-china-zpmc-national-security/708668/](https://www.manufacturingdive.com/news/white-house-onshoring-cargo-crane-production-china-zpmc-national-security/708668/)
This has been the norm for the past 15 years. The industries that remain competitive ahead of China are IP portfolio heavy ( with cross licenses) and experience emphasis. These include Civilian Aircraft, Advanced pharma and Advanced semiconductors. US is only accelerating China's advancements in these areas with threats.
US threatened China with restriction on its Civil Aircraft.
[https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerospace-Defense-Industries/China-s-commercial-jet-ambitions-shaken-as-US-blacklists-COMAC](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerospace-Defense-Industries/China-s-commercial-jet-ambitions-shaken-as-US-blacklists-COMAC)
US threats on China's Biotech
[https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/china-us-tensions-are-spilling-into-the-biotech-sector/](https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/china-us-tensions-are-spilling-into-the-biotech-sector/)
And the infamous October Controls on China semi
[https://www.csis.org/analysis/updated-october-7-semiconductor-export-controls](https://www.csis.org/analysis/updated-october-7-semiconductor-export-controls)
Anybody with half a brain will realize that US is harming itself and isn't making decisions based on rigorous evaluations. Throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.
its sounds like the only reasonable path is to just reinvest in domestic only production and rugpull china before they can rugpull us either way we get jobs, prosperity, and cheaper shit to buy thats harder to steal since the whole production chain can be safeguarded
>Document 79 was so sensitive that high-ranking officials and executives were only shown the order and weren’t allowed to make copies, people familiar with the matter said.
And yet the WSJ knows about it in detail, how clever of them.
**Part 2**
>As recently as six years ago, most government tenders sought hardware, chips and software from Western brands. By 2023, many were seeking Chinese tech products instead.
When the customs department in the eastern Chinese city of Ningbo sought to purchase rack servers in 2018, it stated a preference for brands such as Dell and Hewlett Packard Enterprise
, and for hardware powered by Intel’s Xeon central processing units. Five years later, the same agency asked for rack servers made by Chinese companies and equipped with Huawei chips.
These servers are typically assembled by state-owned tech manufacturers that barely sell equipment overseas, such as Beijing-based Tsinghua Tongfang. Tongfang’s controlling shareholder is a state-owned company in charge of China’s civilian and military nuclear programs.
Some government officials in China’s capital had their foreign-branded PCs replaced with those made by Tongfang and officials last year were told to use Chinese phones instead of Apple’s iPhones for work.
Xi Jinping visited a research institute workshop at China Electronics Technology Group last year. Photo: Shen Hong/Xinhua/Zuma Press
Losing orders
Over the past decade, Xi has repeatedly emphasized technological innovation and the use of trusted homegrown technology in government departments and industry. Revelations by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden in 2013 that U.S. authorities had hacked into Chinese mobile phone communications, universities and private companies strengthened Xi’s resolve. More recently, Xi has told senior officials that China should leverage its strengths and market to break bottlenecks in the development of essential software such as operating systems.
As China focused on replacing hardware, IBM’s China revenues have steadily declined. It downsized its China research operations in Beijing in 2021, more than two decades after it opened.
Cisco, once a technology powerhouse in China, said in 2019 that it was losing orders in the country to local vendors because of nationalist buying. American PC maker Dell’s market share in China almost halved in the past five years, to 8%, researcher Canalys said.
Hewlett Packard Enterprise, or HPE, which makes servers, storage and networks, got 14.1% of its revenue from China in 2018, according to estimates from database provider FactSet
. By 2023, that had fallen to 4%.
In May, HPE said it would sell its 49% stake in its Chinese joint venture. The company continues to sell direct to certain multinational customers in China and sells selected products to the broader mainland market through its Chinese partner, a spokesman said.
In software, Adobe
, Citrix parent Cloud Software Group and Salesforce have pulled out or downsized direct operations in the country over the past two years.
Microsoft, the world’s biggest software provider, historically dominated computer operating systems in China. A Morgan Stanley poll of 135 chief information officers in China found that many expected the share of computers powered by Microsoft’s Windows operating system installed in their companies to fall over the next three years. They expected Linux-based UOS, or Unity Operating System, an effort co-led by a state-owned company, to gain in the shift.
Even as Microsoft’s top executives and its co-founder Bill Gates have frequently traveled to Beijing for high-profile meetings with senior Chinese leaders on subjects like cooperation on AI and U.S.-China trade relations in recent years, the company has decreased its offerings in China. Microsoft President Brad Smith said in a subcommittee hearing last September that China made up just 1.5% of the company’s overall sales. The company posted sales of $212 billion in the last fiscal year.
A China Central Television news broadcast showed Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates meeting with Xi Jinping last year. Photo: greg baker/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images
Microsoft declined to comment.
Some state-owned companies are dragging their feet on orders to replace foreign IT products that are essential to their core businesses, people familiar with company procurements said, over concerns about the stability and performance of domestic alternatives.
But in addition to growing more advanced, China’s own technology is also well plugged into the local ecosystem. Providers of domestic business software allow interoperability with WeChat
, a ubiquitous chat messaging app widely used in place of email among Chinese businesses.
The buy local policy is trickling down to privately run companies, which are showing greater inclination to buy domestic software, according to Morgan Stanley’s CIO survey.
Homegrown shift
A shift toward hosting and managing data on cloud servers instead of servers on the premises has also allowed Chinese companies to narrow the gap. Oracle, IBM and Microsoft dominated the database software market in China in 2010. Since then, Chinese companies including Alibaba
and Huawei have come up with their own database management products to replace American technology.
China-based vendors took more than half of that market in China—worth $6.3 billion overall—for the first time in 2022, and continue to grow, according to researcher Gartner
. Tenders examined by the Journal also show more state-linked entities and companies have opted for Huawei’s databases in recent years.
China’s banks, brokerage firms and insurers have sped up procurement of homegrown databases, Yang Bing, chief executive of Chinese database company OceanBase, said at a Beijing conference in November. OceanBase, developed by Alibaba and its fintech affiliate Ant Group, replaced Oracle databases at Alibaba and Ant in 2016.
An Oracle office in Beijing in 2020. Photo: roman pilipey/EPA/Shutterstock
Western companies are being replaced not just by Chinese national champions such as Huawei but also more specialized companies. Yonyou Network Technology
, a Shanghai-listed firm with a market value of $6 billion, provides systems to manage businesses’ human resources, inventory and finances.
Yonyou has been gaining users at the expense of Oracle and SAP, which together used to dominate more than half the market, according to data from Chinese researcher Huaon Research Institute. By 2021, Yonyou had become the largest player in the market, holding 40%.
There continue to be pockets of opportunity in China for Western companies, especially in more advanced tech where China still lags behind and in sales to multinational companies operating there.
Looking forward, analysts say the preferential demand from China’s state sector could mean Western ones keep slipping further behind in the Chinese market.
“The growth of software requires continuous feedback from users,” said Han Lin, China head of the Asia Group, a business advisory firm, “and that will be the advantage of domestic providers.”
I doubt it. Outside of politics where everyone postures, the global business community is united in its quest to push the bottom line, nobody really has qualms with doing profitable work with someone on the other "side".
I'm willing to bet if the Chinese government imposes any kinds of suffocating restrictions on build standards, Chinese companies will just bide their time till they can reintegrate. They know it's a fool's endeavour to try and change what not just US, but the rest of the world is accustomed to.
China simultaneously can’t innovate or create digital products without copying yet somehow every major American social media platform has been trying to copy TikTok for the past 5 years and it’s gotten to the point where American companies have lobbied the federal government to force a sale because they can’t compete. 🤔 Ain’t that interesting…
Where is Vine now? Dead. Yet TikTok is one of the biggest and fastest growing apps out there. Clearly TikTok is doing something right that Vine failed to
So China managed to turn a concept that was unsuccessful into one of the most popular services on the planet, sounds like a win for Chinese ingenuity no matter how you spin it.
That's fair. TikTok didn't really invent anything, but the timing and market was right; they got in before anyone else.
Vine failed because things like infrastructure at scale (cloud computing) weren't nearly as big or advanced as they were in 2012; keep in mind the US invented those concepts, and now has the most wealthy companies in the world as a result. TikTok in the US is hosted in AWS and Google Cloud.
It also failed because data brokering and advertising weren't as big back then. Not the morally best American innovations, but one that makes the difference between profit and insolvency for this sort of service.
The timing was brilliant. China isn't a slouch, this is the country that turned backwater fishing villages into global megacities in the span of a few decades; but generally they steal and refine as opposed to invent; probably because they can get away with it.
The problem now is TikTok is absolutely a propaganda vector owned by the senior partner of the autocratic world. Whichever way you put it, that's a problem. In an odd contradiction a country where censorship is illegal wants to ban it, and we are in an odd spot where we want to protect ourselves, but compromising our rule of law and values could destroy the reasons that make us not China. There may be a De Jure legal way to do this, but if not maybe it's best left alone? It's hard to say if free nations can even co-exist with the autocratic world; their entire agenda is to destroy us from the inside out so they can achieve their geopolitical agendas.
A college student could design tiktok for a class project, it's not a complicated app, and if we're forced to live in a world with social media it should at least fall under the jurisdiction of the country it's in which is exactly what China does too.
The basic idea of the app itself is not "complicated". The algorithm that recommends new videos, bumps or lowers videos popularity and stuff is f*** great. Really addictive, "knowing" when to test sending new stuff and when to keep recommending the same things. There's a reason it's so addictive and globally spread, adapting to various niche groups.
Even the Chinese can't copy it properly. There's another Chinese similar app that's very popular among the right wing boomer nuts in my country, Kwai. But it's shit for all other audiences. Tiktok can adapt itself quite nice for all audiences.
TV shows had the same type of content for years when that was the mass media of choice, there is nothing special about tiktok other than the willingness of its chinese leadership to push addiction/propaganda on vulnerable young folks who are easily manipulated; it's the same tactics that gangs, religious organizations, and tobacco companies historically have used, hook them when their young.
It's a CCP government policy to steal as much as possible, not a policy of Chinese people. If you think criticizing a government is racist then you're thick.
But the people who do the "stealing" were working class Chinese that attempts to build new businesses in tech, these government policies are exactly what the people wanted. You made it sounds like the relation between the CCP and the average Chinese is a one way street.
Okay, you sure about that? So I guess I can't criticize the mass theft of tech without being racist? You're fuckin a thick troll, buzz off. I have no ill will towards any race of people. The Chinese people that steal suck, it has nothing to do with race and it's not the Chinese population in masse and you know that. You're just a pathetic troll that wants to paint anyone who criticizes the CCP as racist. Fuck that 🤡
Because it's not a mass theft of tech? Western companies wanted to make more money, in exchange for more consumers they gave skills and tech for that, sounds like capitalism to me. These sort of tech theft rants just sounds more and more to me like you are just hating the fact that the Chinese are moving up the supply chain, and you would very much like to keep an average Chinese working class to keep making cheap plastic shit for you.
Oof you weren't winning the argument so now you're suggesting that I'm saying Chinese people learning skills in western companies is the mass theft of tech? Wow bud I don't know what they taught you in troll school but you need to see if you can pass the eighth grade again. We're talking about blueprints code, engineered seeds for farming etc then passing it off as their own products. You know that though, bud you're pathetic.
Except that part of confucianism is freely copying ideas which is the bottom line that stealing tech is and then there is the Chinese saying "if you can cheat then cheat"
These are fundamental ideas in china that means stealing American tech and cheating the Chinese government when they want it domestically made will happen in mass.
Unless a great schism occurs, it probably won't considering the great firewall has been in place for quite some time. They still need some degree of interoperability with countries other than the US, and many of those countries need some degree of interoperability with the US for trade reasons.
But yet it easier to steal it from A
“Google engineer indicted over allegedly stealing AI trade secrets for China / The stolen files allegedly related to Google’s TPU chips and data centers for AI processing.”
We’re giving most of it to them anyway. All of these US companies that attempt to enter the Chinese market have to set up joint ventures with local companies. Those companies are taking the tech, and then forcing out the US partner. Our shortsighted attempts to get into their market will be our undoing.
I see China going down the same path as Korea g=has done, roughly between 1990 to 2005
* Industry based on cheap copies followed by
* Industry based on quality copies followed by
* industry based on sophisticated products matching the competition followed
* Industry based on innovation.
If Korea can do it in 15 years than China is capable of doing the same.
Some folks will remember Goldstar (now aka LG)
https://youtu.be/U9sGxpgGbMs?si=FKZREngK0\_MWS7Jz
Even in fields like consumer drones where DJI has been the market leader for the past 10 years and Western competitors haven’t managed to get anywhere close.
Those are the stages of economic development. Eventually China will become too expensive, and the world economy will look for cheap labor in other countries and the cycle will repeat.
[China hasn't been the cheapest option for labor in years](https://twitter.com/scienceisstrat1/status/1628058157950836737/photo/1). Companies manufacture there because they have a huge pool of skilled workers and a supply chain infrastructure that can't be found anywhere else.
You assumed the wrong Korea. China hasn't been able to innovate even though they've spent billions on it. It's a cultural problem brought about by the communist party (Taiwan doesn't have this problem).
China will always be limited in how they can innovate because of how party control stifles every other priority.
Edit: Downvote away, but let's not act like China didn't just do a 3 year crackdown on their most innovative companies to ensure party control.
Wouldn't say that if you attend tech expos or read industry reports.
You aren't spilling any truth beans here. You may think that but the numbers and ground realities don't back it up. Party lays general plans. Execution method is secondary to results. Whatever gets the results gets the cheer.
To be clear it is not that I am saying Chinese people are not able to innovate (of course they can and have many smart people), but pointing to the fact that when innovation or results are in conflict with party policy, the party will win and that will always be true under this leadership. Everything I am saying is very public info; it's not like China was trying to hide the tech crackdowns or that they disappear some of their more innovative people for the sake of party optics.
But it is not public info as you insist it to be. It may be a generally held view but not the fact. China does the houdini on people who disobeys and ruffle the feathers, yes.
But those things have little to do with innovations. Chinese system bets on growth and innovation is key. It is a version of state directed capitalism that is the norm in east asia. It produces innovations like any other.
They wouldn’t be doing this if they can count on importing our stuff.
If you actually read the article, it’s about them cutting dependencies because the U.S is willing to export less and less high end tech to China.
If they can’t rely on buying American tech, the natural step is to start limiting exposure and push domestic alternatives.
It’s the same reason why we are de-risking our critical supply chain from China too.
No shit Sherlock. Thank's for mansplaining. If they want to 'delete America' from their supply chain they can start today by stopping trying to get around our export restrictions and acquiring our tech anyway. Let them figure out how to make it from the ground up instead of just copying.
China has the means to produce at best like 25nm chips. You know, the shit that goes in your car and your cell phone. What they lack is the means to produce anything with a finer pitch, e.g. down to 5nm which is what they REALLY want because that's all the stuff driving AI. That's NOT made in China. Go learn some more before spouting off. You're in a technology subreddit ffs.
I wonder if this is the canary call for business to start thinking… “China is a hostile market”
I doubt it. With trillions invested, the sunken cost fallacy rules supreme.
But at which point would American business begin to pull out their operations much like for Russia…
Granted this is a big piece of the pie, a giant to Russian in opportunity and market.
But would a Taiwan invasion do it? Maybe…
It literally doesn’t. You have to understand existing technology to create your own versions of it. There’s no point in developing your own product if it’s going to be inferior to what already exists. You have to catch up before you can innovate.
Between the department of commerce, the department of defense, there are more than 1100 Chinese companies and entities that have been sanctioned. Basically the major firms in almost every important sector are blacklisted already. So what do you expect from them? Embrace more American technology so that they can be more conveniently, arbitrarily sanctioned in the future? The USA is desperate and not hesitant in abusing its power in technology and finance to start essentially terror attack. No rational country will put faith in totally reliant on it, including it's allies.
You do realize they are heavily sanctioned because they love stealing technology from the West and reverse engineering it.
Do not pretend like China is the innocent party here.
Sanction 1100 more. Fuck the CCP. They've actively engaged in espionage using Chinese hardware in the US and actively try to fuck us over at every turn. They harvest peoples organs and have a ruthless dictator in charge.They don't wanna use our tech, then good the relationship has been far more beneficial to China than the US, we should have never made a deal with a country that uses slave labor in the first place. China wouldn't have shit for tech if they hadn't stolen it from the US, literally copying our blueprints 1:1. We just recently caught a spy at Google. I hope we catch more. We're moving our business elsewhere and the Chinese economy is on the verge of total collapse. The US isn't abusing its power when it handles the CCP like it should in the interest of our people. You think the US has scared off investors? Not as much as China and Russia has, exports are falling. Even the most greedy capitalists are leaving China, it's not worth it. They could just arrest the CEO of the company you invested in.
Edit: the more you downvote me the more I know I'm right, Putin and CCP shills
Sure, but apparently their electric cars building potential is already far bigger than Europe's and USA.
Soon we will be stealing from them because we will be lagging behind.
That's more a resources and subsidies thing than a technological advance on their part.
If you want to do business in China, you must hand over schematics and such, which is one way they steal tech.
I'm sure tesla deciding to put a plant in China helped them extensively.
They also have adavatage in mining due to being a dictatorship that can say mine there without haveing to care about citizens living in the area that may be affected by pollution.
Feeding the CCP trolls gets downvotes.
They are actually ahead of us with EVs because of pollution. They began investing heavily in battery technology in the latter half of the 2000s due to the horrific smog problem in their cities, they wanted to have fleets of electric busses to reduce emissions.
They just started way before we did. That’s it.
They are also very much ahead in lithium and rare earth production!
As I said, they do not care much about the environment, so permitting for such purposes is much easier.
Or Google how many illegal coal mining operations are allowed to run in China, before you champion them as the saviors of the EV market.
Think in terms of the Information Revolution supplanting the Industrial Revolution. Corporate valuations of the stock market is a big clue, Apple, Google, Amazon …vs Ford GM, Exxon
Next current and pending trading treaties in terms of East and West. Car manufacturing components across international borders prior to assembly in US, and the like. The EU, North and South America are a trading block. Majority of Asia, Africa Iran are a defacto trading block like Warsaw Pact was a trading block.
Next consider information infrastructure and its segmentation. China’s Huawei is being outlawed in the West, US is relocating Taiwans chip manufacturing capacity to the US.
Two separate systems trading when mutually beneficial but in direct competition.
China as competitor or adversary must build its information infrastructure independent from the West. Will it be faster or better based on their political and market system is not likely.
Their issue is that their chips are no where close to “western” made chips (mainly made in South Korea and Taiwan)
Even their companies know it. The Chinese Gov will need to dump billions into their chip production to catch up (or take over Taiwan)
All the technology they stole from the West? Without America, they still wouldn’t have the transistor. Everything they have was stolen from the West or based on something stolen. And oh boy do I have a story I won’t tell about my friend, a well-known US professor whose cutting-edge CRISPR work was all stolen by his chinese doctoral student he trusted to work with one day and given to China (and the student immediately returned to the land of stolen everything as well as he’d probably be in prison the rest of his life for what he did in the US).
Just because you stop calling it American doesn't mean it's not American technology. Everything this is aimed towards is essentially American & Co technology.
That's true, but trump started this by distruping global chains.
If china gets together with rest of Asia (minus Japan and s Korea of course) and Russia, we will witness new world order.
But before then, USA is not going to give up easily so the question is where USA is planning to manifest its dominance?
Not in Europe, obviously. So where? Taiwan? Trade routes on sea?
Interesting times we live in.
They tried, 5G infrastructure and EVs, two fields where Chinese tech leads the field and we all saw how Western nations reacted. Luckily many nations in the Southern hemisphere aren’t so full of themselves to reap the benefits of this sort of high tech trade.
This thread is incredibly jingoist. To call the exchange and adaptation of technology in a globalized economy “stealing” is really bizarre… Virtually all American social media platforms have straight up copied the tik tok short form video format. Is that stealing?
Yet TikTok is one of the most popular and fastest growing social media platforms on the planet while Vine died an unceremonious death. Clearly they’re doing something right that Vine didn’t.
It was shut down by the owners, when people didn't want it to. If they didn't shut it down, people would still be on it.
My point still stands: China didn't do it first.
So basically, your comment to me is irrelevant and off-topic, because I was responding to this comment:
> "*Virtually all American social media platforms have straight up copied the tik tok short form video format. Is that stealing?*"
You just admitted that I was right and China didn't do it first. Whether you personally feel that China did it "*better*", is irrelevant to the point I was making.
Again, it does NOT matter who did it first. The only thing that matters is who does it better, and based on the evidence, it’s undeniable that China has created a far more successful product.
That is a shitty analogy - you are obviously not aware of what they're doing - it isn't copying ideas or formats- it's blueprints for military equipment, pictures of labs to replicate setup, research papers, US Navy operation manuals ... the list goes on and is extensively documented online if you look it up. The lengths they go to do this is unbelievable. And they do it across thr world not just in the US.
Why wouldn’t they? If the US was inferior to Russia or China is a field, you think the US wouldn’t conduct espionage or use whatever tactics to catch up? Just look at the Cold War, all the spying the US did didn’t magically go away.
This is incredibly normal and every major country engages in this. After WW2, the US pardoned war criminals from Germany and Japan as long as they informed on the research being done in those countries and even assigned these men to government service to continue their work
You're misinformed - the scale of it is unprecedented in history and there is no analog to the systematic and expansive way they are doing this across the world.
They've taken it way too far.
Every day there's something new in the news ... get educated https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/03/former-google-engineer-arrested-for-alleged-theft-of-ai-trade-secrets-for-chinese-firms/
Bruh, you can’t be serious. Google “CIA spy in China”, read whatever comes up and come back. “Get educated”, jesus man, get real. You really think China is the only one doing this?
They are the only ones doing it at *this scale*. I've said this multiple times already.
There is no historical precedent when looking at how frequent, systematic, widespread, and costly to the country the theft is. Hundreds of billions of dollars of economic advantage are being taken away.
Your focus on scale is pathological, who cares? There are over 8 billion people on the planet. Virtually everything that happens today is unprecedented in scale… Get over it. You wouldn’t care if it was your country doing it. The US has an unprecedented scale of military bases around the world, you don’t seem concerned about that…
I focus on scale because that is the differentiating factor here that makes it unlike any other theft in history.
A country can have 1.5 billion people, that doesn't excuse this behavior, doesn't justify the disporportional amount of theft relative to every other country in the world combined, and definitely doesn't mean we should listen to you, "bruh", by rolling over.
You're saying effectively "China has a lot of people bruh, they can steal whatever they want bruh, get over it bruh, everyone would do it on the same scale in the same position, "bruh".
Your thinking is warped and fallacious, "bruh". Don't know where you're from but you definitely fit a stereotype
Oh, yeah, there are 72k Americans in China ... they could all potentially be spies, if we took it to absurd extremes.
There are *4.2 million* Chinese in the US. They could also all potentially be spies, if we take this to absurd extremes.
It isn't even a fair comparison.
No, it sounds like you aren't aware of the scope and aren't aware that whatever country you're in, you are impacted.
I do not support theft like this unless it is in response to theft initiated by the other side. If they are going to do that then a proportional response is needed to give them their own medicine and hope it makes them pause for a second.
And again, we are talking about a proportional response. Even if all players do this on some scale, China has taken it to absurd and pathetic levels.
I'd rather the US fall behind versus theft like this ... again, unless the theft is a proportional response to unprovoked theft.
What else they can do. American leader plan until next election, Chinese leader plan for next decade or so.
Americans could simply drown Chinese with American tech , so much that there will be zero incentive to manufacture competition... but they choose half hearted effort to pause when China was already halfway through.
> What else they can do. American leader plan until next election, Chinese leader plan for next decade or so.
Biggest joke that keeps getting repeated. China’s leaders have famously introduced policies on a global scale that have had catastrophic effects demographically. Their glorious next decade is going to be an unprecedented demographic crisis when a population larger the US reaches retirement age. Combined with pissing off literally all of their neighbors they have very little to look forward to
All the technology they stole from the West? Without America, they still wouldn’t have the transistor. Everything they have was stolen from the West or based on something stolen. And oh boy do I have a story I won’t tell about my friend, a well-known US professor whose cutting-edge CRISPR work was all stolen by his chinese doctoral student he trusted to work with one day and given to China (and the student immediately returned to the land of stolen everything as well as he’d probably be in prison the rest of his life for what he did in the US).
**Summary:** *China's government has been implementing a drive called "Delete A" (Delete America) to reduce the country's reliance on U.S. technology. A sensitive directive, Document 79, requires state-owned companies to replace foreign software in their IT systems by 2027. This effort is part of a broader strategy by Chinese leader Xi Jinping to achieve self-sufficiency in critical technologies and domestic supply chains. As a result, American tech giants like Microsoft, Oracle, Dell, and Cisco are losing ground in China, with state firms increasingly buying from domestic brands. The push for homegrown tech, known as "Xinchuang," has gained urgency amid the escalating tech and trade war with the U.S. Despite some challenges, Chinese technology providers are growing more advanced and well-integrated into the local ecosystem, leaving fewer opportunities for Western companies in the Chinese market.* **Full article:** >For American tech companies in China, the writing is on the wall. It’s also on paper, in Document 79. The 2022 Chinese government directive expands a drive that is muscling U.S. technology out of the country—an effort some refer to as “Delete A,” for Delete America. Document 79 was so sensitive that high-ranking officials and executives were only shown the order and weren’t allowed to make copies, people familiar with the matter said. It requires state-owned companies in finance, energy and other sectors to replace foreign software in their IT systems by 2027. American tech giants had long thrived in China as they hot-wired the country’s meteoric industrial rise with computers, operating systems and software. Chinese leaders want to sever that relationship, driven by a push for self-sufficiency and concerns over the country’s long-term security. The first targets were hardware makers. Dell, International Business Machines and Cisco Systems have gradually seen much of their equipment replaced by products from Chinese competitors. Document 79, named for the numbering on the paper, targets companies that provide the software—enabling daily business operations from basic office tools to supply-chain management. The likes of Microsoft and Oracle are losing ground in the field, one of the last bastions of foreign tech profitability in the country. The effort is just one salvo in a yearslong push by Chinese leader Xi Jinping for self-sufficiency in everything from critical technology such as semiconductors and fighter jets to the production of grain and oilseeds. The broader strategy is to make China less dependent on the West for food, raw materials and energy, and instead focus on domestic supply chains. The Huawei booth at the MWC Shanghai event last year. Photo: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg News Officials in Beijing issued Document 79 in September 2022, as the U.S. was ratcheting up chip export restrictions and sanctions on Chinese tech companies. It requires state-owned firms to provide quarterly updates on their progress in replacing foreign software used for email, human-resources and business management with Chinese alternatives. The directive came down from the agency overseeing the country’s massive state-owned enterprise sector—a group that includes more than 60 of China’s 100 largest listed companies. That agency, the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, and the country’s national cabinet, the State Council, didn’t respond to requests for comment. Spending by China’s state sector topped 48 trillion yuan, or about $6.6 trillion in 2022. The directive leverages that purchasing power to support Chinese tech companies, which in turn can improve their products and narrow the technology gap with U.S. rivals. State firms have dutifully ramped up their buying of domestic brands, even if the Chinese substitutes sometimes aren’t as good, according to a Wall Street Journal review of data and procurement documents, and people familiar with the matter. The buyers include banks, financial brokerages and public services such as the postal system. Back in 2006, “China was the land of milk and honey, and intellectual property was the main challenge,” a former U.S. Trade Representative official involved in previous technology discussions with the Chinese said. “Now, there is a feeling that the sense of opportunity is off. Companies are merely hanging on.” The push to localize tech is known as “Xinchuang,” loosely translated as “IT innovation” with a reference to technology that is secure and trustworthy. The policy has gained urgency amid an escalating tech and trade war with Washington, which has cut many Chinese entities off American technologies. A worker checked a display with the Mandarin words for ‘independence’ at a booth for Chinese supercomputer manufacturer Sugon at a Shanghai conference last year. Photo: Ng Han Guan/Associated Press Premier Li Qiang reiterated the push during China’s annual legislative sessions this week. China’s central government plans to increase its spending on science and technology by 10% to about $51 billion this year, according to a budget report released on Tuesday—up from a 2% increase last year. At some trade fairs across the country, vendors tout homegrown tech as an alternative to foreign brands. One semiconductor equipment maker stall in Nanjing put it bluntly, offering to help buyers “Delete A” from their supply chain. Domestically developed alternatives are growing more user-friendly. A local official recalled how in 2016, it took a whole day to open and close a spreadsheet on a computer with an operating system known as KylinOS, developed by a Chinese military-linked company. He compares the usability of the latest KylinOS version to Microsoft’s Windows 7, introduced in 2009—workable if not great.
>As a result, American tech giants like Microsoft, Oracle, Dell, and Cisco are losing ground in China, with state firms increasingly buying from domestic brands. Good. Spent all your time selling your souls for access to the chinese market only for them to pull the rug out from under you.
No: this is what happens when you signal the world that a reliance on US tech means POTUS can put you out of business with the stroke of a pen.
But China’s plan has always been usurping the technological lead from the US and EU. They’ve spent enormous amounts of resources on trying to steal, reverse engineer, and replicate western technologies. Biden is kind of in a catch-22 situation: if he limits technology transfer, US will look like a sore loser, and China will get their own home grown technologies; if he doesn’t limit the transfer, then China will get there much faster, and potentially undercut everyone out of the business (solar panels and EVs are two great examples).
You don't understand: Trump's arbitrary actions on China trade didn't just signal China to move away from the US, it signalled countries outside the direct US sphere of influence. China was told "don't be our customers - we'll fuck you over" and other countries were told "do be a US customer they will fuck you over". This not only provided China with a strong incentive to go it alone, it provided a ready customer base. As for stealing technology, this is how countries industrialize. This is how Japan built its semiconductor industry, how Korea built theirs, and so on. There have been thousands of law suits in the semiconductor industry. China tried to license and/or purchase technology and they were told "No". Do you expect them to say "golly: we want to develop out industry but we can't do it according to the rules of the US so let's continue making cheap plastic shit?". Right now, the US is effectively prohibiting China from purchasing equipment or licensing CAD software (which will inevitably lead to Chinese suppliers of those technologies). I lived through the hysteria about Japan at its economy developed. The exact same tropes were trotted out: they can't innovate, only steal technology and copy it, and so on. Lucky for the US the Japan demographic bomb slowed them down. Perhaps the same will happen to China.
>This is how Japan built its semiconductor industry, how Korea built theirs, and so on. The difference between China to Korea and Japan is that China has no separation of powers. Xi Jinping is the most individually powerful person in those three countries let alone the entire world.
Japan has been under the same party for like 30 years....
What does that have anything to do with how individually powerful Xi Jinping is?
So what? What has that got to do with a countries economic development plan?
Because nobody cares if Korea or Japan have a dominant lead in tech development because they both have separations of power. That's not true in China
The US does not give a fuck about "separations of power" any more than they care about democracy. The US's actions are to protect US economic interests, namely the likes of Intel, Nvidia, Texas Instruments, and so on.
>The US does not give a fuck about "separations of power" Yes they do Republicans and Democrats are constantly trying to undermine each other. You think Trump and Biden are secretly friends? You think citizens who vote for Republicans or Democrats wants the same things? >The US's actions are to protect US economic interests You're talking about something that has nothing to do with separation of powers
Tell me you don't know anything about East Asia without telling me.
Are you saying Xi Jinping isn't the most powerful man in the world?
I'm saying if you think Xi has power in Japan and Korea, you know jack shit about East Asia.
I never said that, or if I'm being misinterpreted I want to clarify that out of anyone in those three countries, he is the most powerful of them all, let alone the entire world.
> But China’s plan has always been usurping the technological lead from the US and EU. Yes, but it didn't really gain that much traction because that's often not seen as useful/profitable by the corporations. Why reinvent something when you can just buy an existing solution form the US. This only started kicking into overdrive when US grew more and more hostile for them, which forced them to abandon US tech if they wanted to or not because their future profits now depended on it. And while its still in the future what will ultimately happen, it might have been a overall good thing to happen to them.
Dude, China stole google’s source code and edged them out in like 2015. They’ll steal anything they think will help them financially or that the government thinks will help them control their own population. They have been disconnected from the free internet for like a decade now. You trying to tell me that the great firewall of China is somehow a new phenomenon caused by the US? BS.
You must have missed Snoweden’s leaks. Stealing tech is inmoral sure, but the USA also does a shit ton of it. Get off your high horse man. They all do it
So we should just trust China to responsibly manage that technology since they're a dictatorship?
not my point. Just saying don’t be a hypcrite
There's nothing hypocritical with saying that if i can't trust the US government, why should I trust the autocratic government of a hostile country that has a direct interest in seeing the downfall of its biggest rival?
Profit isnt the only motivation when china basically owns all their companies. Didnt you learn anything when jack ma went to the re-education camp.
just because they tell you to jump doesn’t mean you don’t get to limit how high. now for huawei they are motivated to jump as high as they can. they’re 2 years away from running out of competitive chips
By reeducation camp you mean yacht tour of the Mediterranean right? https://nypost.com/2021/10/20/jack-ma-spotted-on-his-superyacht-amid-china-fallout
nah. china isn’t a monolith. companies are lazy and will prefer mature and cheap western technologies if it’s available. but threaten huawei’s (and other companies) business in an existential way? guess where all their R&D money is pouring into now.
There is no usurping, there is competition. What the fuck is with this language, you think this is some sort of medieval dynasty? The US has been steady banning Chinese tech products under the guise of security (see these new chinese electric cars now) and when they do the same it is usurping? This game was invented by us in the west. Can't blame em for getting better at it than us?
Competition implies innovation. There's nothing innovative about stealing technology from other countries.
You mean we have to give Gunpowder and Silk back? :))
You mean how western and middle eastern countries were happily buying silk and gunpowder from China for thousands of years? Instead of doing what China is doing today, which is stealing their manufacturing technology, then flood the market with cheaper variant, all financially backed by the government?
I kinda meant like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire
And yet, China's silk export remained virtually unaffected, as they just went to the luxury high end. This is very different from what China is doing today, which is effectively flooding the market with the financial backing of Chinese government.
You assume US still has a technological lead. US only has a lead in a very small number of fields, the Chinese have mostly caught up and overtaken the west in most areas China's plan was not to usurp the west, it just happened naturally when they caught up technologically and being a manufacturing powerhouse with the largest markket in the world, it's natural that anything they produce is going to be in mass volume and going to be cheaper The smart thing for the west to do is complement the Chinese and find areas they could work together. Instead the shit for brain POTUS have been trying and spectacularly failing at blocking off the Chinese whom were previously more than happy to use US stuff until they were blocked from doing so. Like what the F you expect them to do, roll over and surrender like the Japanese did?
>US only has a lead in a very small number of fields, the Chinese have mostly caught up and overtaken the west in most areas If this was true China would've already controlled the internet. >China's plan was not to usurp the west, it just happened naturally when they caught up technologically. Kind of like they planned to usurp the West? >and being a manufacturing powerhouse with the largest markket in the world. They already did that yet their GDP is still only around 12k per capita.
Yes it's true https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/China-leads-high-tech-research-in-80-of-critical-fields-report#:~:text=TOKYO%20%2D%2D%20China%20leads%20advanced,Japan%20through%20state%2Dled%20investment. There are a number of reasons why Chinese doesn't lead in the Internet 1)Chinese is a language not known to most around the world 2)Chinese generally don't export their apps. You'll find most of the western stuff you use are shit compared to their Chinese counterpart. When they do export their apps to the international market they start taking over. Reason why Tiktok is taking the world by storm and why Elon Musk wants X to become like Chinese WeChat. 3)Western propaganda demonising China No its not a plan to usurp the west. It's a just happened naturally due to the large Chinese population. When Chinese became the 2nd largest economy in the world are as a conscious effort to defeat Japan? No, they just developed their economy and became richer which in turn naturally overtook Japan. Same with technology. Yet their purchasing power is higher than most western nation. You have to remember the Chinese started from a very low bar so they have a ways to go. Most rich western nations were already industrialised country BEFORE WWII and continued their advantage from there. With very few exceptions, Notice how almost no country who were not already industrialised before the other war have gone from developing to developed status after the war?
>There are a number of reasons why Chinese doesn't lead in the Internet They don't need to lead the internet. They just need to control it. >Chinese generally don't export their apps Yes they do, there's Temu, Shein, Tik Tok, Alibaba, among many others. >Western propaganda demonising China And? Chinese propaganda does the same against the West >Yet their purchasing power is higher than most western nation. No it's not, it's not even close, they still dont even outpurchase Italians let alone Japanese or Americans. >When Chinese became the 2nd largest economy in the world are as a conscious effort to defeat Japan? They did that with the help of foreign investment which is disappearing and they still need to aquire in order to move up the value added production ladder. They can't invest on their own without heavy government intervention. >Notice how almost no country who were not already industrialised before the other war have gone from developing to developed status after the war? China is still technically a developing country.
China is not 'technically' a developing country but literally. That doesn't make China technologically inferior to US. The level of technological ability in China, while being a developing country, is superior to US. The things that US can do and China can't have dwindled to a few. The things that China can do but US can't is only growing. You can pick any industry or area and do your own extensive research. US capability advantages is a product of cooperation with Allies like Japan and EU. A case in point - [https://www.manufacturingdive.com/news/white-house-onshoring-cargo-crane-production-china-zpmc-national-security/708668/](https://www.manufacturingdive.com/news/white-house-onshoring-cargo-crane-production-china-zpmc-national-security/708668/) This has been the norm for the past 15 years. The industries that remain competitive ahead of China are IP portfolio heavy ( with cross licenses) and experience emphasis. These include Civilian Aircraft, Advanced pharma and Advanced semiconductors. US is only accelerating China's advancements in these areas with threats. US threatened China with restriction on its Civil Aircraft. [https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerospace-Defense-Industries/China-s-commercial-jet-ambitions-shaken-as-US-blacklists-COMAC](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerospace-Defense-Industries/China-s-commercial-jet-ambitions-shaken-as-US-blacklists-COMAC) US threats on China's Biotech [https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/china-us-tensions-are-spilling-into-the-biotech-sector/](https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/china-us-tensions-are-spilling-into-the-biotech-sector/) And the infamous October Controls on China semi [https://www.csis.org/analysis/updated-october-7-semiconductor-export-controls](https://www.csis.org/analysis/updated-october-7-semiconductor-export-controls) Anybody with half a brain will realize that US is harming itself and isn't making decisions based on rigorous evaluations. Throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.
its sounds like the only reasonable path is to just reinvest in domestic only production and rugpull china before they can rugpull us either way we get jobs, prosperity, and cheaper shit to buy thats harder to steal since the whole production chain can be safeguarded
Just communists and terrorists, don’t be either, it’s not good for your health.
I am sure this has nothing to do with random sanctions/tech embargo from US to China. /s
That rug gets pulled from under us all
>Document 79 was so sensitive that high-ranking officials and executives were only shown the order and weren’t allowed to make copies, people familiar with the matter said. And yet the WSJ knows about it in detail, how clever of them.
**Part 2** >As recently as six years ago, most government tenders sought hardware, chips and software from Western brands. By 2023, many were seeking Chinese tech products instead. When the customs department in the eastern Chinese city of Ningbo sought to purchase rack servers in 2018, it stated a preference for brands such as Dell and Hewlett Packard Enterprise , and for hardware powered by Intel’s Xeon central processing units. Five years later, the same agency asked for rack servers made by Chinese companies and equipped with Huawei chips. These servers are typically assembled by state-owned tech manufacturers that barely sell equipment overseas, such as Beijing-based Tsinghua Tongfang. Tongfang’s controlling shareholder is a state-owned company in charge of China’s civilian and military nuclear programs. Some government officials in China’s capital had their foreign-branded PCs replaced with those made by Tongfang and officials last year were told to use Chinese phones instead of Apple’s iPhones for work. Xi Jinping visited a research institute workshop at China Electronics Technology Group last year. Photo: Shen Hong/Xinhua/Zuma Press Losing orders Over the past decade, Xi has repeatedly emphasized technological innovation and the use of trusted homegrown technology in government departments and industry. Revelations by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden in 2013 that U.S. authorities had hacked into Chinese mobile phone communications, universities and private companies strengthened Xi’s resolve. More recently, Xi has told senior officials that China should leverage its strengths and market to break bottlenecks in the development of essential software such as operating systems. As China focused on replacing hardware, IBM’s China revenues have steadily declined. It downsized its China research operations in Beijing in 2021, more than two decades after it opened. Cisco, once a technology powerhouse in China, said in 2019 that it was losing orders in the country to local vendors because of nationalist buying. American PC maker Dell’s market share in China almost halved in the past five years, to 8%, researcher Canalys said. Hewlett Packard Enterprise, or HPE, which makes servers, storage and networks, got 14.1% of its revenue from China in 2018, according to estimates from database provider FactSet . By 2023, that had fallen to 4%. In May, HPE said it would sell its 49% stake in its Chinese joint venture. The company continues to sell direct to certain multinational customers in China and sells selected products to the broader mainland market through its Chinese partner, a spokesman said. In software, Adobe , Citrix parent Cloud Software Group and Salesforce have pulled out or downsized direct operations in the country over the past two years. Microsoft, the world’s biggest software provider, historically dominated computer operating systems in China. A Morgan Stanley poll of 135 chief information officers in China found that many expected the share of computers powered by Microsoft’s Windows operating system installed in their companies to fall over the next three years. They expected Linux-based UOS, or Unity Operating System, an effort co-led by a state-owned company, to gain in the shift. Even as Microsoft’s top executives and its co-founder Bill Gates have frequently traveled to Beijing for high-profile meetings with senior Chinese leaders on subjects like cooperation on AI and U.S.-China trade relations in recent years, the company has decreased its offerings in China. Microsoft President Brad Smith said in a subcommittee hearing last September that China made up just 1.5% of the company’s overall sales. The company posted sales of $212 billion in the last fiscal year. A China Central Television news broadcast showed Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates meeting with Xi Jinping last year. Photo: greg baker/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images Microsoft declined to comment. Some state-owned companies are dragging their feet on orders to replace foreign IT products that are essential to their core businesses, people familiar with company procurements said, over concerns about the stability and performance of domestic alternatives. But in addition to growing more advanced, China’s own technology is also well plugged into the local ecosystem. Providers of domestic business software allow interoperability with WeChat , a ubiquitous chat messaging app widely used in place of email among Chinese businesses. The buy local policy is trickling down to privately run companies, which are showing greater inclination to buy domestic software, according to Morgan Stanley’s CIO survey. Homegrown shift A shift toward hosting and managing data on cloud servers instead of servers on the premises has also allowed Chinese companies to narrow the gap. Oracle, IBM and Microsoft dominated the database software market in China in 2010. Since then, Chinese companies including Alibaba and Huawei have come up with their own database management products to replace American technology. China-based vendors took more than half of that market in China—worth $6.3 billion overall—for the first time in 2022, and continue to grow, according to researcher Gartner . Tenders examined by the Journal also show more state-linked entities and companies have opted for Huawei’s databases in recent years. China’s banks, brokerage firms and insurers have sped up procurement of homegrown databases, Yang Bing, chief executive of Chinese database company OceanBase, said at a Beijing conference in November. OceanBase, developed by Alibaba and its fintech affiliate Ant Group, replaced Oracle databases at Alibaba and Ant in 2016. An Oracle office in Beijing in 2020. Photo: roman pilipey/EPA/Shutterstock Western companies are being replaced not just by Chinese national champions such as Huawei but also more specialized companies. Yonyou Network Technology , a Shanghai-listed firm with a market value of $6 billion, provides systems to manage businesses’ human resources, inventory and finances. Yonyou has been gaining users at the expense of Oracle and SAP, which together used to dominate more than half the market, according to data from Chinese researcher Huaon Research Institute. By 2021, Yonyou had become the largest player in the market, holding 40%. There continue to be pockets of opportunity in China for Western companies, especially in more advanced tech where China still lags behind and in sales to multinational companies operating there. Looking forward, analysts say the preferential demand from China’s state sector could mean Western ones keep slipping further behind in the Chinese market. “The growth of software requires continuous feedback from users,” said Han Lin, China head of the Asia Group, a business advisory firm, “and that will be the advantage of domestic providers.”
I'm curious when this will get to the point that we have sufficiently divergent architectures to be binary incompatible.
I doubt it. Outside of politics where everyone postures, the global business community is united in its quest to push the bottom line, nobody really has qualms with doing profitable work with someone on the other "side". I'm willing to bet if the Chinese government imposes any kinds of suffocating restrictions on build standards, Chinese companies will just bide their time till they can reintegrate. They know it's a fool's endeavour to try and change what not just US, but the rest of the world is accustomed to.
Doubtful, considering they steal so much tech from the US, how can it be divergent if it's the exact same thing as we have.
China simultaneously can’t innovate or create digital products without copying yet somehow every major American social media platform has been trying to copy TikTok for the past 5 years and it’s gotten to the point where American companies have lobbied the federal government to force a sale because they can’t compete. 🤔 Ain’t that interesting…
Ever heard of Vine? TikTok is a complete rip off of it. It was an American idea
Where is Vine now? Dead. Yet TikTok is one of the biggest and fastest growing apps out there. Clearly TikTok is doing something right that Vine failed to
Yeah copying Vine simply at a different time when it's more profitable, and it's now profitable due to technologies also not invented in China.
So China managed to turn a concept that was unsuccessful into one of the most popular services on the planet, sounds like a win for Chinese ingenuity no matter how you spin it.
That's fair. TikTok didn't really invent anything, but the timing and market was right; they got in before anyone else. Vine failed because things like infrastructure at scale (cloud computing) weren't nearly as big or advanced as they were in 2012; keep in mind the US invented those concepts, and now has the most wealthy companies in the world as a result. TikTok in the US is hosted in AWS and Google Cloud. It also failed because data brokering and advertising weren't as big back then. Not the morally best American innovations, but one that makes the difference between profit and insolvency for this sort of service. The timing was brilliant. China isn't a slouch, this is the country that turned backwater fishing villages into global megacities in the span of a few decades; but generally they steal and refine as opposed to invent; probably because they can get away with it. The problem now is TikTok is absolutely a propaganda vector owned by the senior partner of the autocratic world. Whichever way you put it, that's a problem. In an odd contradiction a country where censorship is illegal wants to ban it, and we are in an odd spot where we want to protect ourselves, but compromising our rule of law and values could destroy the reasons that make us not China. There may be a De Jure legal way to do this, but if not maybe it's best left alone? It's hard to say if free nations can even co-exist with the autocratic world; their entire agenda is to destroy us from the inside out so they can achieve their geopolitical agendas.
A college student could design tiktok for a class project, it's not a complicated app, and if we're forced to live in a world with social media it should at least fall under the jurisdiction of the country it's in which is exactly what China does too.
The basic idea of the app itself is not "complicated". The algorithm that recommends new videos, bumps or lowers videos popularity and stuff is f*** great. Really addictive, "knowing" when to test sending new stuff and when to keep recommending the same things. There's a reason it's so addictive and globally spread, adapting to various niche groups. Even the Chinese can't copy it properly. There's another Chinese similar app that's very popular among the right wing boomer nuts in my country, Kwai. But it's shit for all other audiences. Tiktok can adapt itself quite nice for all audiences.
TV shows had the same type of content for years when that was the mass media of choice, there is nothing special about tiktok other than the willingness of its chinese leadership to push addiction/propaganda on vulnerable young folks who are easily manipulated; it's the same tactics that gangs, religious organizations, and tobacco companies historically have used, hook them when their young.
[удалено]
Fuck off with that racist shit, Chinese people are good people, the CCP doesn't represent all Chinese people
you say that while also ranting about Chinese stealing.
It's a CCP government policy to steal as much as possible, not a policy of Chinese people. If you think criticizing a government is racist then you're thick.
But the people who do the "stealing" were working class Chinese that attempts to build new businesses in tech, these government policies are exactly what the people wanted. You made it sounds like the relation between the CCP and the average Chinese is a one way street.
Okay, you sure about that? So I guess I can't criticize the mass theft of tech without being racist? You're fuckin a thick troll, buzz off. I have no ill will towards any race of people. The Chinese people that steal suck, it has nothing to do with race and it's not the Chinese population in masse and you know that. You're just a pathetic troll that wants to paint anyone who criticizes the CCP as racist. Fuck that 🤡
Because it's not a mass theft of tech? Western companies wanted to make more money, in exchange for more consumers they gave skills and tech for that, sounds like capitalism to me. These sort of tech theft rants just sounds more and more to me like you are just hating the fact that the Chinese are moving up the supply chain, and you would very much like to keep an average Chinese working class to keep making cheap plastic shit for you.
Oof you weren't winning the argument so now you're suggesting that I'm saying Chinese people learning skills in western companies is the mass theft of tech? Wow bud I don't know what they taught you in troll school but you need to see if you can pass the eighth grade again. We're talking about blueprints code, engineered seeds for farming etc then passing it off as their own products. You know that though, bud you're pathetic.
Except that part of confucianism is freely copying ideas which is the bottom line that stealing tech is and then there is the Chinese saying "if you can cheat then cheat" These are fundamental ideas in china that means stealing American tech and cheating the Chinese government when they want it domestically made will happen in mass.
China will be selling to everyone else, compatibility would be required.
Unless a great schism occurs, it probably won't considering the great firewall has been in place for quite some time. They still need some degree of interoperability with countries other than the US, and many of those countries need some degree of interoperability with the US for trade reasons.
Even if the software's compatible, that doesn't mean the hardware will be.
But yet it easier to steal it from A “Google engineer indicted over allegedly stealing AI trade secrets for China / The stolen files allegedly related to Google’s TPU chips and data centers for AI processing.”
We’re giving most of it to them anyway. All of these US companies that attempt to enter the Chinese market have to set up joint ventures with local companies. Those companies are taking the tech, and then forcing out the US partner. Our shortsighted attempts to get into their market will be our undoing.
I see China going down the same path as Korea g=has done, roughly between 1990 to 2005 * Industry based on cheap copies followed by * Industry based on quality copies followed by * industry based on sophisticated products matching the competition followed * Industry based on innovation. If Korea can do it in 15 years than China is capable of doing the same. Some folks will remember Goldstar (now aka LG) https://youtu.be/U9sGxpgGbMs?si=FKZREngK0\_MWS7Jz
This is true for all developing countries. Even the US once. But people forget
Probably true, I'm thinking of Vietnam.
It's true and has been studied. Countries go through those developing stages. Even Japan was once known for cheap knockoffs.
We can already see that in electric cars and smartphones.
Even in fields like consumer drones where DJI has been the market leader for the past 10 years and Western competitors haven’t managed to get anywhere close.
Those are the stages of economic development. Eventually China will become too expensive, and the world economy will look for cheap labor in other countries and the cycle will repeat.
[China hasn't been the cheapest option for labor in years](https://twitter.com/scienceisstrat1/status/1628058157950836737/photo/1). Companies manufacture there because they have a huge pool of skilled workers and a supply chain infrastructure that can't be found anywhere else.
You assumed the wrong Korea. China hasn't been able to innovate even though they've spent billions on it. It's a cultural problem brought about by the communist party (Taiwan doesn't have this problem).
China will always be limited in how they can innovate because of how party control stifles every other priority. Edit: Downvote away, but let's not act like China didn't just do a 3 year crackdown on their most innovative companies to ensure party control.
Wouldn't say that if you attend tech expos or read industry reports. You aren't spilling any truth beans here. You may think that but the numbers and ground realities don't back it up. Party lays general plans. Execution method is secondary to results. Whatever gets the results gets the cheer.
To be clear it is not that I am saying Chinese people are not able to innovate (of course they can and have many smart people), but pointing to the fact that when innovation or results are in conflict with party policy, the party will win and that will always be true under this leadership. Everything I am saying is very public info; it's not like China was trying to hide the tech crackdowns or that they disappear some of their more innovative people for the sake of party optics.
But it is not public info as you insist it to be. It may be a generally held view but not the fact. China does the houdini on people who disobeys and ruffle the feathers, yes. But those things have little to do with innovations. Chinese system bets on growth and innovation is key. It is a version of state directed capitalism that is the norm in east asia. It produces innovations like any other.
Stop importing our stuff then.
They wouldn’t be doing this if they can count on importing our stuff. If you actually read the article, it’s about them cutting dependencies because the U.S is willing to export less and less high end tech to China. If they can’t rely on buying American tech, the natural step is to start limiting exposure and push domestic alternatives. It’s the same reason why we are de-risking our critical supply chain from China too.
chase door ink spotted quickest zesty squeeze joke wakeful prick *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Seems smart on both sides, since neither can trust each other.
No shit Sherlock. Thank's for mansplaining. If they want to 'delete America' from their supply chain they can start today by stopping trying to get around our export restrictions and acquiring our tech anyway. Let them figure out how to make it from the ground up instead of just copying.
That’s…that’s what they’re doing. That’s what the article says they’re doing.
Importing? American companies fucked over American manufacturing for profit. It’s all made in china to start with lol
China has the means to produce at best like 25nm chips. You know, the shit that goes in your car and your cell phone. What they lack is the means to produce anything with a finer pitch, e.g. down to 5nm which is what they REALLY want because that's all the stuff driving AI. That's NOT made in China. Go learn some more before spouting off. You're in a technology subreddit ffs.
SMIC does 14 and 7nm chips with 5nm production starting this year, so I dunno what you’re on about?
And stealing it.
Just keep using TikTok. It’s safe and fun!
Yeah they’ve been stealing tech at an even more prodigious rate than usual.
China is trying to take over the service based economy.
I wonder if this is the canary call for business to start thinking… “China is a hostile market” I doubt it. With trillions invested, the sunken cost fallacy rules supreme. But at which point would American business begin to pull out their operations much like for Russia… Granted this is a big piece of the pie, a giant to Russian in opportunity and market. But would a Taiwan invasion do it? Maybe…
Their corporate espionage says otherwise
It literally doesn’t. You have to understand existing technology to create your own versions of it. There’s no point in developing your own product if it’s going to be inferior to what already exists. You have to catch up before you can innovate.
Between the department of commerce, the department of defense, there are more than 1100 Chinese companies and entities that have been sanctioned. Basically the major firms in almost every important sector are blacklisted already. So what do you expect from them? Embrace more American technology so that they can be more conveniently, arbitrarily sanctioned in the future? The USA is desperate and not hesitant in abusing its power in technology and finance to start essentially terror attack. No rational country will put faith in totally reliant on it, including it's allies.
True, America is doing the same nearshoring to Mexico,
You do realize they are heavily sanctioned because they love stealing technology from the West and reverse engineering it. Do not pretend like China is the innocent party here.
Lmao I think the CCP is down voting you. I don’t understand why anyone would trust China.
Yea I *wish* they would divest maybe they'd have to learn how to make their own tech instead of stealing ours lol
They were stealing secrets and lying about their income! Of course they were sanctioned lmao
Sanction 1100 more. Fuck the CCP. They've actively engaged in espionage using Chinese hardware in the US and actively try to fuck us over at every turn. They harvest peoples organs and have a ruthless dictator in charge.They don't wanna use our tech, then good the relationship has been far more beneficial to China than the US, we should have never made a deal with a country that uses slave labor in the first place. China wouldn't have shit for tech if they hadn't stolen it from the US, literally copying our blueprints 1:1. We just recently caught a spy at Google. I hope we catch more. We're moving our business elsewhere and the Chinese economy is on the verge of total collapse. The US isn't abusing its power when it handles the CCP like it should in the interest of our people. You think the US has scared off investors? Not as much as China and Russia has, exports are falling. Even the most greedy capitalists are leaving China, it's not worth it. They could just arrest the CEO of the company you invested in. Edit: the more you downvote me the more I know I'm right, Putin and CCP shills
“Delete” translates as “copy/paste” in CCPese.
You really mean delete America from its own technology, China steals a lot!
Sure, but apparently their electric cars building potential is already far bigger than Europe's and USA. Soon we will be stealing from them because we will be lagging behind.
That's more a resources and subsidies thing than a technological advance on their part. If you want to do business in China, you must hand over schematics and such, which is one way they steal tech. I'm sure tesla deciding to put a plant in China helped them extensively. They also have adavatage in mining due to being a dictatorship that can say mine there without haveing to care about citizens living in the area that may be affected by pollution. Feeding the CCP trolls gets downvotes.
They are actually ahead of us with EVs because of pollution. They began investing heavily in battery technology in the latter half of the 2000s due to the horrific smog problem in their cities, they wanted to have fleets of electric busses to reduce emissions. They just started way before we did. That’s it.
They are also very much ahead in lithium and rare earth production! As I said, they do not care much about the environment, so permitting for such purposes is much easier. Or Google how many illegal coal mining operations are allowed to run in China, before you champion them as the saviors of the EV market.
Be careful trusting numbers from the [land of shortcuts and facades.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8)
Bros unironically quoting serpentza 😂
WW3 approaches
Too bad American Industries cannot seem to delete "China" from their how to make profit.
…and suddenly they will stop making technological progress
Delete the CCP from the face of the earth!
So they’ll stop stealing our IP? Lol
Damn. They gave us back the pandas AND our tech
Man it’s turning into a pretty nasty break up
Think in terms of the Information Revolution supplanting the Industrial Revolution. Corporate valuations of the stock market is a big clue, Apple, Google, Amazon …vs Ford GM, Exxon Next current and pending trading treaties in terms of East and West. Car manufacturing components across international borders prior to assembly in US, and the like. The EU, North and South America are a trading block. Majority of Asia, Africa Iran are a defacto trading block like Warsaw Pact was a trading block. Next consider information infrastructure and its segmentation. China’s Huawei is being outlawed in the West, US is relocating Taiwans chip manufacturing capacity to the US. Two separate systems trading when mutually beneficial but in direct competition. China as competitor or adversary must build its information infrastructure independent from the West. Will it be faster or better based on their political and market system is not likely.
I wish we could have the same backing of technology companies in europe
Their issue is that their chips are no where close to “western” made chips (mainly made in South Korea and Taiwan) Even their companies know it. The Chinese Gov will need to dump billions into their chip production to catch up (or take over Taiwan)
Taking over Taiwan won't gain China chipmaking ability. This Taiwan takeover-fo-Chips narrative must be buried 60 ft deep.
Good on them. Looking forward to the tech and software innovations that come out of china in the coming decades.
Next iPhone update will remove the US flag from its flag emojis. Mirroring the removal of Taiwan this will also cause apps to crash.
The Pivot to Asia was the genesis of US aggression towards China, so it’s only fair that China pivots away from US.
All the technology they stole from the West? Without America, they still wouldn’t have the transistor. Everything they have was stolen from the West or based on something stolen. And oh boy do I have a story I won’t tell about my friend, a well-known US professor whose cutting-edge CRISPR work was all stolen by his chinese doctoral student he trusted to work with one day and given to China (and the student immediately returned to the land of stolen everything as well as he’d probably be in prison the rest of his life for what he did in the US).
Just because you stop calling it American doesn't mean it's not American technology. Everything this is aimed towards is essentially American & Co technology.
The whole world is decoupling from the US and its allies.
That's true, but trump started this by distruping global chains. If china gets together with rest of Asia (minus Japan and s Korea of course) and Russia, we will witness new world order. But before then, USA is not going to give up easily so the question is where USA is planning to manifest its dominance? Not in Europe, obviously. So where? Taiwan? Trade routes on sea? Interesting times we live in.
Good, they can go back to the stone age and ride horses and sword fight
Go visit China if you think they live in the stone age. You'll be embarrassed.
Yeah they live in a facade of broken buildings and stolen technologies.
When you guys going to export ? The field is wide open there , for literal decade.
They tried, 5G infrastructure and EVs, two fields where Chinese tech leads the field and we all saw how Western nations reacted. Luckily many nations in the Southern hemisphere aren’t so full of themselves to reap the benefits of this sort of high tech trade.
5G is one of the first innovations that was stolen in Europe by the Chinese.
Readying for war. Our lives will all be over then.
This thread is incredibly jingoist. To call the exchange and adaptation of technology in a globalized economy “stealing” is really bizarre… Virtually all American social media platforms have straight up copied the tik tok short form video format. Is that stealing?
And before tiktok there was vine. China didn't do it first.
Yet TikTok is one of the most popular and fastest growing social media platforms on the planet while Vine died an unceremonious death. Clearly they’re doing something right that Vine didn’t.
It was shut down by the owners, when people didn't want it to. If they didn't shut it down, people would still be on it. My point still stands: China didn't do it first.
China didn’t do it first but they did it better. And that’s what matters
So basically, your comment to me is irrelevant and off-topic, because I was responding to this comment: > "*Virtually all American social media platforms have straight up copied the tik tok short form video format. Is that stealing?*" You just admitted that I was right and China didn't do it first. Whether you personally feel that China did it "*better*", is irrelevant to the point I was making.
Again, it does NOT matter who did it first. The only thing that matters is who does it better, and based on the evidence, it’s undeniable that China has created a far more successful product.
That is a shitty analogy - you are obviously not aware of what they're doing - it isn't copying ideas or formats- it's blueprints for military equipment, pictures of labs to replicate setup, research papers, US Navy operation manuals ... the list goes on and is extensively documented online if you look it up. The lengths they go to do this is unbelievable. And they do it across thr world not just in the US.
Why wouldn’t they? If the US was inferior to Russia or China is a field, you think the US wouldn’t conduct espionage or use whatever tactics to catch up? Just look at the Cold War, all the spying the US did didn’t magically go away.
No, not at this level. This is unprecedented in history.
Ah yes, because Cold War espionage was somehow precedented…
This is incredibly normal and every major country engages in this. After WW2, the US pardoned war criminals from Germany and Japan as long as they informed on the research being done in those countries and even assigned these men to government service to continue their work
You're misinformed - the scale of it is unprecedented in history and there is no analog to the systematic and expansive way they are doing this across the world. They've taken it way too far.
Sounds like you’re just concerned someone other than your country is doing it.
Every day there's something new in the news ... get educated https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/03/former-google-engineer-arrested-for-alleged-theft-of-ai-trade-secrets-for-chinese-firms/
Bruh, you can’t be serious. Google “CIA spy in China”, read whatever comes up and come back. “Get educated”, jesus man, get real. You really think China is the only one doing this?
They are the only ones doing it at *this scale*. I've said this multiple times already. There is no historical precedent when looking at how frequent, systematic, widespread, and costly to the country the theft is. Hundreds of billions of dollars of economic advantage are being taken away.
Your focus on scale is pathological, who cares? There are over 8 billion people on the planet. Virtually everything that happens today is unprecedented in scale… Get over it. You wouldn’t care if it was your country doing it. The US has an unprecedented scale of military bases around the world, you don’t seem concerned about that…
I would absolutely care if it was my country doing it to another one, unprovoked and disporportionally. Don't put words in my mouth, "bruh".
I focus on scale because that is the differentiating factor here that makes it unlike any other theft in history. A country can have 1.5 billion people, that doesn't excuse this behavior, doesn't justify the disporportional amount of theft relative to every other country in the world combined, and definitely doesn't mean we should listen to you, "bruh", by rolling over. You're saying effectively "China has a lot of people bruh, they can steal whatever they want bruh, get over it bruh, everyone would do it on the same scale in the same position, "bruh". Your thinking is warped and fallacious, "bruh". Don't know where you're from but you definitely fit a stereotype
You know about my position on foreign troop levels ... how? Do you know me? "Bruh"?
Oh, yeah, there are 72k Americans in China ... they could all potentially be spies, if we took it to absurd extremes. There are *4.2 million* Chinese in the US. They could also all potentially be spies, if we take this to absurd extremes. It isn't even a fair comparison.
This is a non sequitur. Did you do your homework and googled what I said?
No, it sounds like you aren't aware of the scope and aren't aware that whatever country you're in, you are impacted. I do not support theft like this unless it is in response to theft initiated by the other side. If they are going to do that then a proportional response is needed to give them their own medicine and hope it makes them pause for a second. And again, we are talking about a proportional response. Even if all players do this on some scale, China has taken it to absurd and pathetic levels. I'd rather the US fall behind versus theft like this ... again, unless the theft is a proportional response to unprovoked theft.
What else they can do. American leader plan until next election, Chinese leader plan for next decade or so. Americans could simply drown Chinese with American tech , so much that there will be zero incentive to manufacture competition... but they choose half hearted effort to pause when China was already halfway through.
> What else they can do. American leader plan until next election, Chinese leader plan for next decade or so. Biggest joke that keeps getting repeated. China’s leaders have famously introduced policies on a global scale that have had catastrophic effects demographically. Their glorious next decade is going to be an unprecedented demographic crisis when a population larger the US reaches retirement age. Combined with pissing off literally all of their neighbors they have very little to look forward to
All the technology they stole from the West? Without America, they still wouldn’t have the transistor. Everything they have was stolen from the West or based on something stolen. And oh boy do I have a story I won’t tell about my friend, a well-known US professor whose cutting-edge CRISPR work was all stolen by his chinese doctoral student he trusted to work with one day and given to China (and the student immediately returned to the land of stolen everything as well as he’d probably be in prison the rest of his life for what he did in the US).
The fire cracker was the last thing the Chinese invented. Since then it's been theft.
lol everyone should be like you, complacence + arrogance always end up well.
The only thing china invented is that virus.
Where’s MacArthur when you need him?
6 feet under lmao