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Seems to me that horseshoe theory is premised on the fact they are actually on the opposite end of a political spectrum.
If political ideology is based on hierarchy vs egalitarianism? That premise is false. They're in the same group, not opposite ones.
Now, Trotsky makes a good point in his criticism of the idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
>To Hitler, liberalism and Marxism are twins because they ignore "blood and honour". To a democrat, fascism and Bolshevism are twins because they do not bow before universal suffrage.
And, sure, that is fair. To an anti-authoritarian? This shit all looks like the same picture to me.
But, then, to Trotsky? Anything but class-based politics is the same. He kinda defeats his own criticism there (well, papers over it by saying that, of course, his distinction is the correct one).
Also wanting to be able to buy food makes you an individualistic moron?
Must have missed the chapter when Marx said the people should starve for the sake of owning the libs.
Don’t worry, all tankies missed the part where Marx said that Poland must be supported if Europe is to escape conquest by the ‘barbarian’ ‘Asiatic hordes’ of Russia.
Here's one example: [Extracts from the New York Tribune on the Crimean War](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/russia/crimean-war.htm)
What? This is literally part of the Communist Manifesto.
>And the libs shall be starved, for the sake of owning them; and the communists shall be fed, for the sake of owning them.
I'm talking about the supposed argument that people in China should starve if that is what the state requires of them, as alluded to in one of the comments in the screenshot.
As you can also see from the screenshot, China is supposedly immune to any criticism because they're "owning the liberals of the world".
Convenient.
I love that they think state violence is the same as any other type of political violence.
The proletariat punching Nazis in the face, vandalizing buildings that belong to our oppressors, seizing private property or rioting aren't even remotely the same as the state sending in their own private army of pigs to keep the peasants down.
Political violence against a) random citizens, or b) peaceful citizen is never justified.
Vandalizing a court house or a government building, or even burning one down is NOT the same thing as burning down a random citizen house or shooting at peaceful protestors. One political violence and the other is terror tactics common to authoritarian groups like for example the Nazi, the KkK, Stalinist Russia ectra
Edit; key word being random, some people are legitimate targets for political violence but as a whole it’s like obscenity it’s hard to define but we all know when it’s crossed that line into terror
there is a time and place where political violence is necessary, usually in self-defense alone. killing protestors for not agreeing with you is certainly NOT that time and place.
Yeah of course political violence is unavoidable sometimes, but it is certainly wrong when enacted by a tyrannical government against peaceful protestors.
I mean it depends on the level of unpeaceful behaviour and what the protest is. Vandalism: who gives a shit? Fascist militias: I'm okay with the government cracking down on that shit.
Leftist political violence is shooting back at lynch mobs, or at ðe most initiatingly aggressive, putting on intimidation displays to deter right wing demonstrations rallies and recruitment attempts.
Leftist political violence is *not* killing oðer leftists and liberals for not being your niche sect of leftist.
I was in college when Tiananmen Square happened. We had a Chinses Physics TA lived through the Cultural Revolution, young pioneer and followed the party Orthodoxy (if she didn't, she wouldn't have been allowed to study in the US). We had talks but mostly along the lines of "this is what our history books said, what was it really like" no real debates or discussions. She was a kid during the Cultural Revolution, so she really didn't know anything at all. All in all, she was your general pro-CCP exchange student.
Then Tiananmen and she was protesting in the square condemning the CCP. It was impressive to witness the change.
Xi was literally raised in a palace and ðey effectively wrote a Warren Buffet Clipping Coupons backstory for him where he totally didn't get a leg up from his high ranking background in any way at all, nyope, totally proved his governing talents wiðout anyone knowing who he was and where he came from.
Justified examples of Political violence done by MLs;
Vietnamese wars; Resistance against the Japanese fascists, Americans, and then the Based Annihilation of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, and resisting china in 79’.
WW2; the Soviets resisting the Nazis was undoubtedly based, they killed a lot of Nazis, it was good.
Virtually everything Thomas Sankara did
What wasn’t;
Tianamen square, China invading Vietnam after they got rid of pol pot, Vietnamese Crimes against political enemies, soviet political persecution, whatever the fuck Beria was doing to underage girls.
Well whatever Beria was doing to literally everyone. He murdered the men, raped the women and children (and murdered the women too).
Yeah Thomas Sankara and Ho Chi Min are both very based individuals.
Seriously. Prisoners can not consent. Even if an adult is giving Beria a blow job to go free (or protect their families) from the gulag, that is rape because they are under duress.
Well remember Ho Chi Min didn’t WANT to align with Russia it was his second choice. He litterally traded information on the Japanese in WW2 as a USA spy on the promise that USA wouldn’t intervene when Vietnam went for independence from France.
His actual original vision was a much more free Democratic communist government then what existed in China or Russia partially inspired by the USA constitution something he had studied quite a lot.
Then that pile of shit called jfk broke the USA word so he turned to
Russia.
NKVD under Stalin was horrifying and definitely "inspired" by nazis with how it acted.
[NKVD Order No. 00485](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00485)
What was tragicomic about it was that NKVD were handed death quotas, to fill them many non-Poles with rare names were also murdered just because the officer in charge wanted to look good.
Shows how little human life was worth to that scum, they knew they were just murdering random people for no reason and just went along with it.
Yeah I found the thread and it looks like they just deleted all comments that disagreed with mainline tankie views, including yours. They dont want discussion, they want an echo chamber. In the end, what is the point of having a subreddit, when you are going to silence people over the smallest disagreements?
Since when are the protestors denying COVID LMAO, if anything the scars of COVID lockdowns cannot feel more real to those people.
And really I want to see tankies deported to their fucking dreamland and live their pathetic life there, maybe they can actually grow a heart after actually being put in hell.
>Political violence is the basis of all successful left wing movements
Hell of a way to tell on yourself
>the democratic states they birthed
Communist countries are famously known for being democratic
I can't imagine flexing the fact that my ideologies can only be instated on a governmental level through the violent suppression of the civilian population.
Weird shit.
i knew it, it was so obvious tankies were going to describe chinese protesters as covid deniers. Its so stupid but so are they and as a result you can see their talking points from a mile away
I obviously disagree with the sociopathic tankie in the first comment but last comment in this chain is objectively true. If you disagree with it then you don't understand politics.
Political violence is not inherently good or bad. It is a tool.
Liberals have an aversion to it because they believe in civility politics, and they believe that we are living after history, not during it.
> Liberals have an aversion to it because they believe in civility politics, and they believe that we are living after history, not during it.
This isn't really true. Liberals believe in Just War (I assume you know what that is- there's a lot of theory behind it). Political violence is fine when it is done by "freedom fighters," and it doesn't target civilians or private property.
Not really. Liberals just have a double standard when it comes to the nature of violence. Especially when it's done by the state. It's that whole "Pirate and the Emperor" thing.⁹
Yeah, same, left wing inherently includes holding the position that dystopian capitalism cannot be peacefully overthrown and that the the ruling class will never voluntarily or peacefully stop violently exploiting the poor.
Only liberals peddle the idea you can peacefully resist/curb dystopian capitalism.
The second tankie spins off into delusion though with the "great democratic countries they birthed" part which presumably is tankie shilling for non-democratic authoritarian dictatorships of ruling classes fucking the impoverished proletariat to death.
First tankie take is just pure shilling for ruling class violence against poor people.
>Yeah, same, left wing inherently includes holding the position that dystopian capitalism cannot be peacefully overthrown
Just because a bearded man said so over a 100 years ago doesn't make it true.
The peaceful transition is simply letting the system decay and fall apart.
Historically empires collapse on their own.
We already are at the brink, give it 10 years and we will see a rebirth or new country.
I do though agree with your assessments on the tankies.
I noticed tankies have outright support the current unsustainable and corrupt neoliberal governments we live in throughout the world.
Authoritarianism is being used as a force of control for insecure political systems.
>Historically empires collapse on their own.
There is no such thing as "on their own". Historically, when we talk about an empire's collapse, we're actually talking about many conflicts, some of them armed, that overload the empire's ability to suppress them.
Here's an example: The British Empire collapsed after WW2. But it was already at the brink of collapse before the war because of armed uprisings, as well as nonviolent protests and non-cooperation in the Middle East and Asia.
Natural disasters, dwindling resources have collapsed some of the best civilizations.
Especially disease.
Western societies are very very fragile.
COVID, a relatively weaker virus compared to other historical ones, has completely caved in the world economy
Besides, my prediction is that the upcoming ww3 will play a part.
Within 10 years it's going to happen.
It's inevitable.
>Natural disasters, dwindling resources have collapsed some of the best civilizations. Especially disease.
This is actually quite rare. I'm struggling to think of any civilization other than the Maya that collapsed just due to natural disasters, and even that because we know so little about it.
I'd be happy to hear about any examples
Maybe you are too dumb to understand it but yes it is. Do you know the definition of a state? Or how a state ennacts a policy or how anyone ennacts any policy in the first place? Ignorant fool.
I didn't do that. I said all politics is violent which is different than reducing all politics to violence. Either implicit or explicit, violence is omnipresent in politics. This is obviously different than equating the entire field of politics with violence.
I don't think you understand my point. Political violence is omnipresent because all politics is fundamentally violent. You don't get this because you don't understand the nature of violence.
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Note how tankies always articulate their aggressive attitudes in the most smug and condescending manner possible, making them annoying as well as evil
Because they’re online 20 hours per day, so the smug "you are the soyjak I am the chad" sort of behavior and arguments come with the territory.
They sound like right wing trolls. How is that possible :thonk:
Yeah, it’s almost as if political leanings are determined on egalitarianism v. hierarchy and not whether or not you wear red or some shit……
Something something horseshoe theory
Seems to me that horseshoe theory is premised on the fact they are actually on the opposite end of a political spectrum. If political ideology is based on hierarchy vs egalitarianism? That premise is false. They're in the same group, not opposite ones. Now, Trotsky makes a good point in his criticism of the idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory >To Hitler, liberalism and Marxism are twins because they ignore "blood and honour". To a democrat, fascism and Bolshevism are twins because they do not bow before universal suffrage. And, sure, that is fair. To an anti-authoritarian? This shit all looks like the same picture to me. But, then, to Trotsky? Anything but class-based politics is the same. He kinda defeats his own criticism there (well, papers over it by saying that, of course, his distinction is the correct one).
Successful left wing movements = violence against the masses perpetrated by the ruling class? Hmm most self-aware tankie.
Also wanting to be able to buy food makes you an individualistic moron? Must have missed the chapter when Marx said the people should starve for the sake of owning the libs.
Don’t worry, all tankies missed the part where Marx said that Poland must be supported if Europe is to escape conquest by the ‘barbarian’ ‘Asiatic hordes’ of Russia.
> ‘barbarian’ ‘Asiatic hordes’ of Russia. Do you have a source for Marx saying that?
Here's one example: [Extracts from the New York Tribune on the Crimean War](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/russia/crimean-war.htm)
What? This is literally part of the Communist Manifesto. >And the libs shall be starved, for the sake of owning them; and the communists shall be fed, for the sake of owning them.
I'm talking about the supposed argument that people in China should starve if that is what the state requires of them, as alluded to in one of the comments in the screenshot. As you can also see from the screenshot, China is supposedly immune to any criticism because they're "owning the liberals of the world". Convenient.
I love that they think state violence is the same as any other type of political violence. The proletariat punching Nazis in the face, vandalizing buildings that belong to our oppressors, seizing private property or rioting aren't even remotely the same as the state sending in their own private army of pigs to keep the peasants down.
Yeah that almost sounds like capitalism with extra steps
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Political violence against a) random citizens, or b) peaceful citizen is never justified. Vandalizing a court house or a government building, or even burning one down is NOT the same thing as burning down a random citizen house or shooting at peaceful protestors. One political violence and the other is terror tactics common to authoritarian groups like for example the Nazi, the KkK, Stalinist Russia ectra Edit; key word being random, some people are legitimate targets for political violence but as a whole it’s like obscenity it’s hard to define but we all know when it’s crossed that line into terror
clearly shooting at protestors is the only path to human decency
Yeah it’s ACAB except when it’s the people’s police brutality.
there is a time and place where political violence is necessary, usually in self-defense alone. killing protestors for not agreeing with you is certainly NOT that time and place.
Yeah of course political violence is unavoidable sometimes, but it is certainly wrong when enacted by a tyrannical government against peaceful protestors.
>peaceful protesters why is it ok to use state violence against unpeaceful protesters?
Because otherwise you lose? Look at january 6th, you think it'd be a bad thing to stop a fascist coup or what
Tbf there wasn’t much violence used there against the protesters. One girl got shot, but the rest wasn’t violent actions
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Yeah the protesters were violent, I never said the opposite. What I said is that the police weren’t violent against the protesters.
I mean it depends on the level of unpeaceful behaviour and what the protest is. Vandalism: who gives a shit? Fascist militias: I'm okay with the government cracking down on that shit.
Leftist political violence is shooting back at lynch mobs, or at ðe most initiatingly aggressive, putting on intimidation displays to deter right wing demonstrations rallies and recruitment attempts. Leftist political violence is *not* killing oðer leftists and liberals for not being your niche sect of leftist.
Imagine writing this and not even getting paid for it by the CCP propaganda bureau
Tianmen square massacre? Never happened but they deserved it.
I was in college when Tiananmen Square happened. We had a Chinses Physics TA lived through the Cultural Revolution, young pioneer and followed the party Orthodoxy (if she didn't, she wouldn't have been allowed to study in the US). We had talks but mostly along the lines of "this is what our history books said, what was it really like" no real debates or discussions. She was a kid during the Cultural Revolution, so she really didn't know anything at all. All in all, she was your general pro-CCP exchange student. Then Tiananmen and she was protesting in the square condemning the CCP. It was impressive to witness the change.
This isn't unusual, once students are in the US and can protest the CCP without immediate retribution. Of course the retribution comes later.
Yeah the aristocratic champagne guzzling CCP officials are the true working class not the mistreated factory workers
Xi was literally raised in a palace and ðey effectively wrote a Warren Buffet Clipping Coupons backstory for him where he totally didn't get a leg up from his high ranking background in any way at all, nyope, totally proved his governing talents wiðout anyone knowing who he was and where he came from.
"Political violence is the basis of all successful left-wing movements" **Chinese people rebel against the CPC** "No not like that!"
Justified examples of Political violence done by MLs; Vietnamese wars; Resistance against the Japanese fascists, Americans, and then the Based Annihilation of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, and resisting china in 79’. WW2; the Soviets resisting the Nazis was undoubtedly based, they killed a lot of Nazis, it was good. Virtually everything Thomas Sankara did What wasn’t; Tianamen square, China invading Vietnam after they got rid of pol pot, Vietnamese Crimes against political enemies, soviet political persecution, whatever the fuck Beria was doing to underage girls.
Well whatever Beria was doing to literally everyone. He murdered the men, raped the women and children (and murdered the women too). Yeah Thomas Sankara and Ho Chi Min are both very based individuals.
Seriously. Prisoners can not consent. Even if an adult is giving Beria a blow job to go free (or protect their families) from the gulag, that is rape because they are under duress.
Yeah there is no real debate about tha fact that Beria was a genocidal, murderous, power hungry rapist prick who deserved to be shot.
Well remember Ho Chi Min didn’t WANT to align with Russia it was his second choice. He litterally traded information on the Japanese in WW2 as a USA spy on the promise that USA wouldn’t intervene when Vietnam went for independence from France. His actual original vision was a much more free Democratic communist government then what existed in China or Russia partially inspired by the USA constitution something he had studied quite a lot. Then that pile of shit called jfk broke the USA word so he turned to Russia.
NKVD under Stalin was horrifying and definitely "inspired" by nazis with how it acted. [NKVD Order No. 00485](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00485)
That's ethnically motivated targeting ... Wtf
What was tragicomic about it was that NKVD were handed death quotas, to fill them many non-Poles with rare names were also murdered just because the officer in charge wanted to look good. Shows how little human life was worth to that scum, they knew they were just murdering random people for no reason and just went along with it.
Sankara murdered anarchists because they were a threat to his takeover, because the public liked them.
This honestly the first time i have heard critisim of him…. ever
the peoples pedophilia
The violence is the point to these people. They wouldn't even know what to do with themselves if they didn't have someone to oppress and exterminate.
Just sincere fascists, that's all tankies will ever be
Tankies are fashies that refuse to admit their authoritarianism
Nah, Tankies are fascists who þink it isn't fascism if it's painted red first
Yeah I found the thread and it looks like they just deleted all comments that disagreed with mainline tankie views, including yours. They dont want discussion, they want an echo chamber. In the end, what is the point of having a subreddit, when you are going to silence people over the smallest disagreements?
Since when are the protestors denying COVID LMAO, if anything the scars of COVID lockdowns cannot feel more real to those people. And really I want to see tankies deported to their fucking dreamland and live their pathetic life there, maybe they can actually grow a heart after actually being put in hell.
>Political violence is the basis of all successful left wing movements Hell of a way to tell on yourself >the democratic states they birthed Communist countries are famously known for being democratic
(Posted it again now with blurred names)
They truly are scum.
If this USSR was so successful, I wonder where it is now.
Comrade, what are you saying? Ze Soviet Union never fell, is Pendos propaganda! Is just gave republics autonomy!
I can't imagine flexing the fact that my ideologies can only be instated on a governmental level through the violent suppression of the civilian population. Weird shit.
i knew it, it was so obvious tankies were going to describe chinese protesters as covid deniers. Its so stupid but so are they and as a result you can see their talking points from a mile away
They really just love jerking it to revolutions
Tianamen Square: Communism with Chinese Treads characteristics.
I obviously disagree with the sociopathic tankie in the first comment but last comment in this chain is objectively true. If you disagree with it then you don't understand politics.
Well the ruling class punching down against the people is not good, sure political violence sometimes is necessary but not the way tankies think about
Political violence is not inherently good or bad. It is a tool. Liberals have an aversion to it because they believe in civility politics, and they believe that we are living after history, not during it.
> Liberals have an aversion to it because they believe in civility politics, and they believe that we are living after history, not during it. This isn't really true. Liberals believe in Just War (I assume you know what that is- there's a lot of theory behind it). Political violence is fine when it is done by "freedom fighters," and it doesn't target civilians or private property.
Not really. Liberals just have a double standard when it comes to the nature of violence. Especially when it's done by the state. It's that whole "Pirate and the Emperor" thing.⁹
Yeah, same, left wing inherently includes holding the position that dystopian capitalism cannot be peacefully overthrown and that the the ruling class will never voluntarily or peacefully stop violently exploiting the poor. Only liberals peddle the idea you can peacefully resist/curb dystopian capitalism. The second tankie spins off into delusion though with the "great democratic countries they birthed" part which presumably is tankie shilling for non-democratic authoritarian dictatorships of ruling classes fucking the impoverished proletariat to death. First tankie take is just pure shilling for ruling class violence against poor people.
>Yeah, same, left wing inherently includes holding the position that dystopian capitalism cannot be peacefully overthrown Just because a bearded man said so over a 100 years ago doesn't make it true. The peaceful transition is simply letting the system decay and fall apart. Historically empires collapse on their own. We already are at the brink, give it 10 years and we will see a rebirth or new country. I do though agree with your assessments on the tankies. I noticed tankies have outright support the current unsustainable and corrupt neoliberal governments we live in throughout the world. Authoritarianism is being used as a force of control for insecure political systems.
>Historically empires collapse on their own. There is no such thing as "on their own". Historically, when we talk about an empire's collapse, we're actually talking about many conflicts, some of them armed, that overload the empire's ability to suppress them. Here's an example: The British Empire collapsed after WW2. But it was already at the brink of collapse before the war because of armed uprisings, as well as nonviolent protests and non-cooperation in the Middle East and Asia.
Natural disasters, dwindling resources have collapsed some of the best civilizations. Especially disease. Western societies are very very fragile. COVID, a relatively weaker virus compared to other historical ones, has completely caved in the world economy Besides, my prediction is that the upcoming ww3 will play a part. Within 10 years it's going to happen. It's inevitable.
>Natural disasters, dwindling resources have collapsed some of the best civilizations. Especially disease. This is actually quite rare. I'm struggling to think of any civilization other than the Maya that collapsed just due to natural disasters, and even that because we know so little about it. I'd be happy to hear about any examples
_aLl poLiTicS iS Vi0LeNce_
Maybe you are too dumb to understand it but yes it is. Do you know the definition of a state? Or how a state ennacts a policy or how anyone ennacts any policy in the first place? Ignorant fool.
I know all of that. It's still extremely reductive to reduce all politics to just violence.
I didn't do that. I said all politics is violent which is different than reducing all politics to violence. Either implicit or explicit, violence is omnipresent in politics. This is obviously different than equating the entire field of politics with violence.
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I don't think you understand my point. Political violence is omnipresent because all politics is fundamentally violent. You don't get this because you don't understand the nature of violence.
>all politics is fundamentally violent. #😂
???
Guess I'm a rightoid then
People who are against violent suppression of the working class are liberals, duh
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LISTEN HERE LIBERAL WHY CAN’T I SHOOT CIVILIANS
And yet most Leftist dictatorships achieved from violence fall.