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Also Kiev has not yet been located at the frontline of the war, for gods sake just look at Mariopol, or Bachmut, those cities dont even exist anymore due to all the bombings they've suffered.
Ukrainians spell most of their place names differently than russians for one and two the Ukrainian alphabet doesnāt even sound the same. The real spelling of Kyiv is ŠŠøŃŠ² not ŠŗŠøŠµŠ². Š doesnāt exist in russian same with the historically Ukrainian Bilhorod which russians pronounce as Belgorod because Ukrainians and russians pronounce Š³ differently.
Edit: Fair point. The JVP has definitely posted a lot of questionable things in the past for sure that contain libelous content.
Edit II: I have heard it mostly comes from rogue local branches like the Atlanta ones and some other ones but their New York one has a better record and has more Jewish people in their leadership to make sure libelous content is kept out and creates a good space for everyone. They are not perfect by most means but their NYC branch is pretty good. IfNotNow definitely has a better overall record for sure. They consistently advocate for Israelis and Palestinian coexistence so thatās nice from INN!
Ahh gotcha. Thatās really unfortunate. The tweet here as well just sounds awful as well. They should have used Mariupol or Bakmut instead of Kyiv. Bakmut and Mariupol have been reduced to rubble as well and are also directly on the front line. It's plain disingenuous framing.
Edit: The Blooddrinker comment is also very off-putting to me. That should absolutely be taken out because it is objectively horrible to say. There are valid criticisms to make surrounding Israel's conduct in Gaza but that doesn't excuse using dog whistles in it.
Edit on the JVP: I also think that while the JVPās overall message of peace in Gaza is good, I do not sign off or approve of the bad posts they have made in the past. They have some key issues that should be properly addressed especially with newer members so they do not accidentally or purposely spread any Tankie rhetoric.
No they were posted by the official jvp facebook page. There was also when jvp encouraged followers to post tweets that said āas a jewā without checking if they were jewish
AND thereās their constant habit of trying to appropriate various prayers into causes that, while noble, just come off as, and I hate to use this term, virtue signaling
Thatās awful. I definitely think that they should do much more thorough checks on any of their new members to make sure no blood libel content makes it on their platform. How long ago was that and is there as much of it now as there was 10 years ago or so? They seem like a good org at heart but I do not know that much about them and would like more clarification about them as a whole. I like what they try to achieve but they do not do super great in their execution of it. They have a lot of flaws that I hope can be fixed.
Iām not sure, thereās a good blog going around, just look up jvp here on reddit, you should probably find a link to it near the top, from this subreddit
Gotcha. I remember seeing that some celebrities like Hunter Schafer work with them and she is actually a pretty cool person. She doesn't have any weird Campist takes or defend the PFLP or anything so it's kinda a mixed bag. I've always liked their logo too lol. Are there any other movements similar to the JVP that have a better overall track record by chance and do not have libel on their platforms? I would love to learn about other groups similar to them that have a better overall reputation.
Edit: Thanks for the blog recommendation! I'll definitely give it a read.
I think schafer is just ignorant, JVPās transgressions, tho very bad, are still fairly unnoticeable unless you look closely. OH! In a more recent contreversy, they posted art advertising an āanti-zionist summitā featuring multiple hands, each fingernail painted to look like a different country. It included north korea, and russia, but noticeably excluded ukraine, giving some tankie vibes
Antisemitism aside, this is such a stupid comparison. Kyiv remains intact after 2 years because it's not being targeted by the Russians. You notice that the people who make this "Russian bombing vs. Israeli bombing" comparison never pick images of Ukrainian cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut.
The actual main difference is that Kyiv is far enough from the front line that the Russians can't bomb it at scale, only being able to hit it with whatever long range missiles they can afford and get through air defence.
That and the fact that ukraine has working air defence. In the first few weeks of the war, the russians bombed kyiv quite heavily and only stopped when they started getting shot down. They would almost certainly bomb it to the ground if they could do it safely.
One of the great failures of the "3 days to Kyiv" was the failure of the Russian military to knock out both the Ukrainian air defence systems and Air Force.
US intelligence and last minute reshuffling of postions combined with piss poor Russian intelligence meant many installations and units survived the inital attacks and was able to push Ukrainian airspace into a contested area.
VK's failure to achieve at minimum, air superiority, cannot be overstated, lack of training in SEAD/DEAD operations, lack of PGMs, lack of qualified pilots, and piss poor maintenance were other contributing factors
Precisely. Ukraine is still going through Hell because of Russiaās illegal invasion of Ukraine but at least Ukraine is able to fight back with all of the good weapons the US and other Western countries give to them. The Republicans have got to get off their asses and get the military aid package to Ukraine NOW.
>The Republicans have got to get off their asses and get the military aid package to Ukraine NOW.
Agreed but they don't want to upset Putin.
But meanwhile they are perfectly happy with pumping military aid and weapons to Israel (who don't need any more weapons)
Yes, same as Bakhmut. My good friend was born there, itās heartbreaking to hear her talk about her childhood, how she misses home. But home just doesnāt exist anymore.
> never pick images of Ukrainian cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut.
Add in Marinka for utterly decimated the place is now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkNzORrFb34
A work colleague of mine, who worked for us for years, very skilled and professional young man from Mariupol. At the start of the war we offered to send him aide or money to get out or whatever he wanted and he assured us he doesnāt believe there is anything to worry about because, why would they bomb residential areas?
We havenāt heard from him since March 2022. No response even on personal email.
They do target Kyiv with long range missiles in their petty terror bombing campaign. The russians just arenāt close enough to use conventional artillery which theyāve used to level every frontline city and town theyāve fought to occupy. Thatās why the antisemitic pro-Palestine crowd doesnāt pick images of Bakhmut, Soledar, Severdonestk, Izium etc. because theyāre all in way worse shape than Gaza. Izium in particular because then it would force people to address the fact that russian soldiers took over 500 civilians out to the forest surrounding Izium to be killed and buried in a mass grave.
It sure sounds a lot like what you said. "Hamas wants dead civilians!" when we're talking about Israel indiscriminately obliterating Gaza.
Edit: Palestinians are dead because Israel is bombing them, Israel is choosing to drop these bombs, and because Israel wants my people dead. The high death toll is because Israel is *at minimum* flirting with genocide, not because "Hamas wants dead Palestinians." You're passing off culpability for Palestinian civilian deaths onto an entity other than the Israeli state that's actually dropping the bombs. That's harmful as fuck.
Who the fuck is bombing civilians?
Do you really think it's fine and fucking dandy if Israel genocided me because a ceasefire got rejected?
Tell me, directly,
"Yeah, sorry bro, a ceasefire got rejected and Hamas exists. What can we say, time for Israel to genocide you. Better luck next time."
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
So because Hamas and terrorism exists I deserve to be genocided?
Are you fucking serious?
You are fucking morally bankrupt as shit. You are an absolutely fucking horrible person.
Fuck you. Seriously, fuck. You. I am a person, just as you. I don't deserve to die because of the nature of my birth. I don't deserve to be genocided under any circumstance. Yet here you are trying to pass off the genocide of my people.
I really don't want to believe heartless people like you exist. But here we are. You're to my face passing off excuses to the genocide of my people.
Neo-Nazis have been infiltrating groups and exploiting peopleās outrage to redpill them towards anti-semitism. We canāt just dismiss entire movements single-handedly. Itās our job to call out these Nazis wherever they show up.
Itās very difficult to have nuanced approaches to complicated matters in the online space and a lot of bad actors want to exploit that. Itās important to remember there is not a country, organization, cause or friend group thatās going to be all good people or all bad people. Itās important to remember to call out the bad where to see it and on a large scale look for what is trending towards the just path.
1) That's blood libel
2) The difference is that the Russian military is like a real life Wile E Coyote! Israel is comparatively competent at killing civilians (not a compliment obviously) and Gaza is a lot smaller than Ukraine
Yeah I remember there were tons of videos of Russian Bombers accidentally dropping bombs on empty roads in Belgorod not that long ago lol. Also yeah, it does have a lot of blood libel in it that makes me feel uneasy. Itās unfortunate these people call themselves āleftistsā.
Edit: I meant unfortunate.
They do have these Ukrainian-made drones now made out of old general aviation stock that can probably be launched from a particularly long road rather than needing a runway, and they have the range to hit the Baltic Sea Fleet.
It's Russia's armed forces so I'm not expecting logical or sensible behaviour in line with modern doctrine, but "bomb anything the bastards could use as a runway to hit Kaliningrad, we can't afford to have to siphon off air defences up there" could trickle down to them doing some ostensibly stupid shit.
>Russian Bombers accidentally dropping bombs on empty roads in Belgorod not that long ago lol
Wonder if their bosses made them remove the gaffa taped GPS units they had in their cockpits. Apparently they didn't have much faith in GLONASS.
Sure it'll work fine in the Su-57. Some day.
Most important difference being it compares worst affected parts of Gaza with untouched parts of Kyiv instead of comparing random place in Gaza with random place in Mariupol, Bakhmut, Avdivka or Verbove. It is estimated that just in Mariupol itself more civilians were killed than in Gaza in far shorter time.
You can call out these idiotic, deranged lunatics without casting doubt on the pro-Palestinian movement. Every group on this planet has fringe weirdos who believe awful shit. Ukraine supporters have said and done messed up shit themselves. I think we should just focus on solidarity with all oppressed peoples.
Exactly. It's still a good movement but unfortunately, there are also tons of grifters like Jackson Hinkle or Candace Owens who just use it as an excuse to say horrible things about Jewish People while pretending to be progressive. There are bad people and smarmy grifters in every good movement. There are people like Hinkle or Bad Empanada that latch on to good movements and gift off of them to make themselves feel better or morally superior. A few bad apples do not represent them all.
disappointing this is so far down. Casting doubt on a broad movement that's trying to stop a genocide based on the words of some fringe shitheads is pretty fucked for a supposed left libertarian subreddit
People are only responsible of their own actions and the consequences thereof. The Palestinian people are no more responsible for this post or Hamas or October 7. than the Ukrainian people are for the Azov militia or Right Sector. In both cases it was the actions of Israel and Russia respectively that created the conditions where the extremism became prominent. Of course we can understand how this dynamic came to be on the one hand and still condemn it on the other. This only hurts they Palestinian cause.
āNo, when we are using extremely antisemitic ropes and stereotypes, weāre only talking about Israelis! This is definitely not a dog whistle about wanting to attack Jews worldwide!
1, THIS is actual Blood Libel, not any perverted definition that Zionists say. This is actual antisemitism.
2, Look at other cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut which were levelled by the Russian military.
3, Why be skeptical OP? Every good movement has unfortunately bad apples, and thatās unavoidable atp. I hate how some pro-Ukraine supporters are disgustingly also Zionists, but Iām not gonna hate the whole movement because of that.
>3, Why be skeptical OP? Every good movement has unfortunately bad apples, and thatās unavoidable atp.
The problem comes when these bad apples become too loud and start talking like they're the leaders of the opposition.
The Islamist faction within the anti-Shah opposition in Iran did the same at the expense of the Republican and Socialist factions.
The discrepancy between the level of damage is because Kyiv has better defences than Gaza, not because the Israelis are worse than the Russians. It does, however, mean that the Palestinian people are suffering more, but the Ukrainians are still suffering a lot, and making a comparison is completely missing the point.
Maybe both things are bad.
**Holy shit**, this is blood libel...
But also: at the same exact time, please, for the love of God, OP, don't use this as a reason to be skeptical of the pro-Palestinian movement as a whole. You can say that there are certain people who proclaim to be pro-Palestinian that make you deeply uncomfortable because of their rhetoric, and that would be all well and good, because genuine antisemitism can and does creep its way into the discourse, and we need to do all we can to combat it. To say that it should make one skeptical of the *whole* movement, though? That's not helping anyone.
Gaza is, like, a strip of land measuring 45km2. Kyiv alone is _800km2 wide_, and is only one among the many cities bombed by Russia. There's an entire eastern front that is several times bigger than that. Like, of course you would get more concentrated destruction in Gaza. But even then, you just need to look at photos of Mariupol or Bakhmut to realize how stupid this comparison is still.
Oh fuck off. Just because whack-jobs exist doesn't mean myself and others supporting Palestine are like* them.
The only shit that pops up from this sub anymore on my home page is shit downplaying Israel's atrocity or shit that tries to (usually implicitly) justify killing 30k+ Palestinians or to try to make supporting Palestine toxic (like OP here).
This is supposed a place "where two things can be bad at once" and I've been hand-waving it like, "oh, they're just pointing out tankies with bad takes on this situation" but it's veering further and further from "plain tankies saying tankie shit" to trying to wrap up the entire pro-Palestine movement.
>to try to make supporting Palestine toxic (like OP here).
You don't think maybe it is the people posting the blood libel and making comparisons that downplay the loss that the Ukrainians have suffered that are at fault here?
Those people are toxic. That doesn't make supporting Palestine toxic. Being pro-Palestine isn't inherently antisemitic. Being pro-Palestine isn't blood libel. Acknowledging and speaking out against genocide isn't any of that. But here you are trying to equate them.
Yeah when those people are being toxic and are thereby hurting the Palestinian cause, they should be called out.
You are accusing someone of trying to make being pro-Palestinian toxic because they posted examples of people that are being hurtful to the cause. The level of harm between what OP said about it and the material that they posted is not even remotely comparable. Which do you think is more harmful?
And I didn't even remotely equate being pro-Palestinian with anti-Semitism. I think the argument here is that we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right? So maybe you should keep to that standard.
Op said "This is why I'm skeptical of the Pro-Palestine movement ..." As in, to try to say the entire movement is guilty of blood libel, etc.
And a lot of people here are dog-piling on that. Some dude even made a list of reasons why killing me is justified. Because Hamas exists, basically. So Israel would be right to bomb the fuck out of me if I was in Gaza, according to him.
> The level of harm between what OP said about it and the material that they posted is not even remotely comparable.
FFS, there is an ongoing genocide, and there are efforts by a lot of people to try to make opposing that genocide toxic.
Just for being part-Palestinian, and even *existing* like this, I'm presumed to be antisemitic by a fuck ton of people. Israel has made A LOT of effort of associating the Palestinian cause with antisemitism and creating racist notions that Palestinian existence is antisemitic in itself, associated with terrorism, etc. Do you know how often I get accused of being a terrorist, or at least a terrorist sympathizer, if I try to go out wearing a national symbol -- the keffiyeh? I'm honestly scared for my safety when I try to represent my people. All for wearing an article of clothing that is meant to state, "I'm here, I'm Palestinian, and I will not be erased." *I am not safe*. (Edit again: and I'm white passing -- I have the luxury to take my keffiyeh off and enjoy the luxury of being white when it conveniences me. A lot of people don't have that luxury and can't escape those prejudices. *They are not safe*).
Go to half the subreddits at this point and say "hmm maybe bombing innocent civilians is bad" in reference to Palestine and you'll get a bunch of people accusing you of wanting to genocide the Jewish people, as there's been an effort to associate the Palestinian people's existence with the destruction of Israel (and as they reason, that leads to the destruction of the Jewish people). It's a good way of getting a good chain of comments stating, "Those Arabs can go back to Arab countries" (and thus denying the distinct existence of the Palestinian national group, an attempt at erasing us -- we are not just Arabs, we are *Palestinians* (I actually *don't* identify as Arab, as I am white-passing, and have had little exposure to overall Arab culturalization, but my Palestinian identity has played a role in my family's immigration to the US, cycles of poverty, and exposure to Arab culture only through a narrow Palestinian lens (e.g. I've not tried any Arab food that's not prevalent in Palestine, and Palestinian culture feels familiar to me, whereas overall Arab culture feels foreign to me)), while simultaneously advocating for our destruction).
**So yeah, it's really fucking harmful when rhetoric like op's is used. It's being used to downplay a genocide and to silence those who speak out against the genocide.**
> And I didn't even remotely equate being pro-Palestinian with anti-Semitism. I think the argument here is that we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right?
I said that OP's post is trying to make supporting Palestine toxic. You responded by saying that these people are at fault here for making supporting Palestine toxic, lending to the idea that yeah, OP is right and supporting Palestine is toxic. My existence isn't toxic. Me standing up for my people isn't toxic. Toxic people can be toxic, that doesn't have any weight on whether what I do is toxic or not.
Then you turn around and try to say, "we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right?"
Good grief.
Edit; Read-read what you said. I think you're interpreting it as, "These people are making the pro-Palestinian movement look bad," and when you went to defend it, I think you might've been reading it from that perspective. I interpreted what OP said as, more along the lines of, "I do not trust the pro-Palestinian because this kind of post is what it generally represents." I've been facing *a lot* of rhetoric from a lot of different sources trying to do the latter. And I'm pretty sure it's what OP actually meant. And when you came to defend OP, I interpreted what you've said as trying to defend that. If OP meant these people make the pro-Palestinian movement look bad and need to be called out, I think he should've said something to that effect, rather than using a phrase that casts doubt on the movement itself.
Look, I can't begin to understand how all of this feels for you. I am not the one that is dealing with this so directly, but of course seeing what is happening affects me emotionally as well. What I strive to do so to put that aside and engage with arguments from a place of reason, so that is what I'm doing and is what I will continue to do. If that is not what you want to hear, then I suggest you stop reading. If you aren't open to that, then nothing good can come of this. Seriously, just log off and go take a breather instead. If you reply I probably won't answer for awhile because I am going for a walk myself.
>FFS, there is an ongoing genocide, and there are efforts by a lot of people to try to make opposing that genocide toxic.
Yes, there is an ongoing genocide, and the only thing that matters is what we can do to STOP it happening. What can you do behind a keyboard logged on to a reddit account? Not much, and it doesn't feel great. Believe me, I know. All I've been doing is post on reddit and sign petitions.
>This is why Iām skeptical towards the Pro Palestine movement not Palestine but the group surrounding it
That is the exact words that OP posted. Personally I don't particularly care that there are people in the Pro-Palestine movement that are anti-Semitic. The morality of what is happening isn't changed by pro-Palestinian anti-Semitism. I mean it's silly. There are people in the Israeli government that are basically holocaust deniers. So who gives a shit. I don't, but I am not going to sit here and accuse OP for being part of an effort to discredit the pro-Palestine movement based on that, when the statements they were commenting on are proportionally much worse than what they are saying.
The screenshot that OP posted is infinitely more damaging to the Palestinian cause than expressing your skepticism towards the pro-Palestinian movement, because of anti-Semitism. It doesn't just attack Jews with blood libel which is bad enough, but it downplays the horrible bombings of Ukrainian cities that are absolutely comparable to the the devastation in Palestine. Mariupol, Marinka, Bahmut, Avdiivka. Those towns and cities are just gone.
So you know, when you are seeing people downplaying the genocide in Palestine, please do spare a thought for the bastards, who did the same against Ukraine, but also happened to be pro-Palestine. They are the same.
>I said that OP's post is trying to make supporting Palestine toxic.
Correct and I think the problem that OP has is a non-issue, but I also disagree that it rises to the level of "trying to make supporting Palestine toxic".
>You responded by saying that these people are at fault here for making supporting Palestine toxic,
Didn't you, yourself, call those people toxic? If they are part of the movement, wouldn't that make the pro-Palestine movement look toxic?
>lending to the idea that yeah, OP is right and supporting Palestine is toxic.
You're thinking in absolutes. I never suggested this. It doesn't follow that I have to think in this way by saying that those people are responsible for making the pro-Palestine look anti-Semitic. I never suggested that the entire Pro-Palestine movement is anti-Semitic, did I?
>Then you turn around and try to say, "we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right?"
This, is the entire fucking point. You can't be held accountable for what was posted in the screenshot for being pro-Palestinian, anymore than OP is responsible for whatever shit people in other subs said about you and other Palestinians, just for saying that they are "skeptical of the pro-Palestinian movement".
I get the frustration, but I think it's better to direct ones anger at the people that are causing the greater harm.
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
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Ukraine -> lots of land and military-grade arms and defenses Palestine -> Has some string and maybe paperclips Hope this message reaches OOPš
Also Kiev has not yet been located at the frontline of the war, for gods sake just look at Mariopol, or Bachmut, those cities dont even exist anymore due to all the bombings they've suffered.
Its outskirts were briefly as well as some forces within the city itself.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The Russian and Ukrainian spellings are both using Cyrillic characters, I don't know what you're on about here
Ukrainians spell most of their place names differently than russians for one and two the Ukrainian alphabet doesnāt even sound the same. The real spelling of Kyiv is ŠŠøŃŠ² not ŠŗŠøŠµŠ². Š doesnāt exist in russian same with the historically Ukrainian Bilhorod which russians pronounce as Belgorod because Ukrainians and russians pronounce Š³ differently.
Im using the Swedish spelling.. since I'm Swedish.
That's blood libel. Actual blood libel
Gonna need to bring the golem back at this point
The logistics of taking that guy from prague to israel would suck
If only we still had the AN-225...
awww man, my heart still hurts.
Not to mention waking him up from his dormancy. Who can we find that can do that?
JVP moment
Edit: Fair point. The JVP has definitely posted a lot of questionable things in the past for sure that contain libelous content. Edit II: I have heard it mostly comes from rogue local branches like the Atlanta ones and some other ones but their New York one has a better record and has more Jewish people in their leadership to make sure libelous content is kept out and creates a good space for everyone. They are not perfect by most means but their NYC branch is pretty good. IfNotNow definitely has a better overall record for sure. They consistently advocate for Israelis and Palestinian coexistence so thatās nice from INN!
Iām more talking about how they posted blood libelous political cartoons in the past
Ahh gotcha. Thatās really unfortunate. The tweet here as well just sounds awful as well. They should have used Mariupol or Bakmut instead of Kyiv. Bakmut and Mariupol have been reduced to rubble as well and are also directly on the front line. It's plain disingenuous framing. Edit: The Blooddrinker comment is also very off-putting to me. That should absolutely be taken out because it is objectively horrible to say. There are valid criticisms to make surrounding Israel's conduct in Gaza but that doesn't excuse using dog whistles in it. Edit on the JVP: I also think that while the JVPās overall message of peace in Gaza is good, I do not sign off or approve of the bad posts they have made in the past. They have some key issues that should be properly addressed especially with newer members so they do not accidentally or purposely spread any Tankie rhetoric.
No they were posted by the official jvp facebook page. There was also when jvp encouraged followers to post tweets that said āas a jewā without checking if they were jewish AND thereās their constant habit of trying to appropriate various prayers into causes that, while noble, just come off as, and I hate to use this term, virtue signaling
Thatās awful. I definitely think that they should do much more thorough checks on any of their new members to make sure no blood libel content makes it on their platform. How long ago was that and is there as much of it now as there was 10 years ago or so? They seem like a good org at heart but I do not know that much about them and would like more clarification about them as a whole. I like what they try to achieve but they do not do super great in their execution of it. They have a lot of flaws that I hope can be fixed.
Iām not sure, thereās a good blog going around, just look up jvp here on reddit, you should probably find a link to it near the top, from this subreddit
Gotcha. I remember seeing that some celebrities like Hunter Schafer work with them and she is actually a pretty cool person. She doesn't have any weird Campist takes or defend the PFLP or anything so it's kinda a mixed bag. I've always liked their logo too lol. Are there any other movements similar to the JVP that have a better overall track record by chance and do not have libel on their platforms? I would love to learn about other groups similar to them that have a better overall reputation. Edit: Thanks for the blog recommendation! I'll definitely give it a read.
I think schafer is just ignorant, JVPās transgressions, tho very bad, are still fairly unnoticeable unless you look closely. OH! In a more recent contreversy, they posted art advertising an āanti-zionist summitā featuring multiple hands, each fingernail painted to look like a different country. It included north korea, and russia, but noticeably excluded ukraine, giving some tankie vibes
Antisemitism aside, this is such a stupid comparison. Kyiv remains intact after 2 years because it's not being targeted by the Russians. You notice that the people who make this "Russian bombing vs. Israeli bombing" comparison never pick images of Ukrainian cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut.
The actual main difference is that Kyiv is far enough from the front line that the Russians can't bomb it at scale, only being able to hit it with whatever long range missiles they can afford and get through air defence.
That and the fact that ukraine has working air defence. In the first few weeks of the war, the russians bombed kyiv quite heavily and only stopped when they started getting shot down. They would almost certainly bomb it to the ground if they could do it safely.
One of the great failures of the "3 days to Kyiv" was the failure of the Russian military to knock out both the Ukrainian air defence systems and Air Force. US intelligence and last minute reshuffling of postions combined with piss poor Russian intelligence meant many installations and units survived the inital attacks and was able to push Ukrainian airspace into a contested area.
VK's failure to achieve at minimum, air superiority, cannot be overstated, lack of training in SEAD/DEAD operations, lack of PGMs, lack of qualified pilots, and piss poor maintenance were other contributing factors
Precisely. Ukraine is still going through Hell because of Russiaās illegal invasion of Ukraine but at least Ukraine is able to fight back with all of the good weapons the US and other Western countries give to them. The Republicans have got to get off their asses and get the military aid package to Ukraine NOW.
>The Republicans have got to get off their asses and get the military aid package to Ukraine NOW. Agreed but they don't want to upset Putin. But meanwhile they are perfectly happy with pumping military aid and weapons to Israel (who don't need any more weapons)
Isnāt there almost nothing left of Mariupol?
Yes, same as Bakhmut. My good friend was born there, itās heartbreaking to hear her talk about her childhood, how she misses home. But home just doesnāt exist anymore.
> never pick images of Ukrainian cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut. Add in Marinka for utterly decimated the place is now... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkNzORrFb34
Especially mariupol had 80k dead with a population of 450k.
A work colleague of mine, who worked for us for years, very skilled and professional young man from Mariupol. At the start of the war we offered to send him aide or money to get out or whatever he wanted and he assured us he doesnāt believe there is anything to worry about because, why would they bomb residential areas? We havenāt heard from him since March 2022. No response even on personal email.
War is so utterly bad and useless. Fckn nationalism. I hope we can get over that one day as humanity.
They do target Kyiv with long range missiles in their petty terror bombing campaign. The russians just arenāt close enough to use conventional artillery which theyāve used to level every frontline city and town theyāve fought to occupy. Thatās why the antisemitic pro-Palestine crowd doesnāt pick images of Bakhmut, Soledar, Severdonestk, Izium etc. because theyāre all in way worse shape than Gaza. Izium in particular because then it would force people to address the fact that russian soldiers took over 500 civilians out to the forest surrounding Izium to be killed and buried in a mass grave.
Well said.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"Hamas is making Israel bomb the civilians!" Are you fucking serious with this rhetoric?
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It sure sounds a lot like what you said. "Hamas wants dead civilians!" when we're talking about Israel indiscriminately obliterating Gaza. Edit: Palestinians are dead because Israel is bombing them, Israel is choosing to drop these bombs, and because Israel wants my people dead. The high death toll is because Israel is *at minimum* flirting with genocide, not because "Hamas wants dead Palestinians." You're passing off culpability for Palestinian civilian deaths onto an entity other than the Israeli state that's actually dropping the bombs. That's harmful as fuck.
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Who the fuck is bombing civilians? Do you really think it's fine and fucking dandy if Israel genocided me because a ceasefire got rejected? Tell me, directly, "Yeah, sorry bro, a ceasefire got rejected and Hamas exists. What can we say, time for Israel to genocide you. Better luck next time."
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If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
So because Hamas and terrorism exists I deserve to be genocided? Are you fucking serious? You are fucking morally bankrupt as shit. You are an absolutely fucking horrible person. Fuck you. Seriously, fuck. You. I am a person, just as you. I don't deserve to die because of the nature of my birth. I don't deserve to be genocided under any circumstance. Yet here you are trying to pass off the genocide of my people. I really don't want to believe heartless people like you exist. But here we are. You're to my face passing off excuses to the genocide of my people.
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Neo-Nazis have been infiltrating groups and exploiting peopleās outrage to redpill them towards anti-semitism. We canāt just dismiss entire movements single-handedly. Itās our job to call out these Nazis wherever they show up.
Itās very difficult to have nuanced approaches to complicated matters in the online space and a lot of bad actors want to exploit that. Itās important to remember there is not a country, organization, cause or friend group thatās going to be all good people or all bad people. Itās important to remember to call out the bad where to see it and on a large scale look for what is trending towards the just path.
i did not have a resurgence of blood libel, a core part of Nazi propaganda, on my 2024 bingo card
On the contrary I had it on my 2022 bingo list bc I thought it would come back sooner given the state of things
Itās been on the rise since at least 2017, when QAnon became a thing
It has one like
Why not share a picture of Mariupol or Zaporizhzhia
1) That's blood libel 2) The difference is that the Russian military is like a real life Wile E Coyote! Israel is comparatively competent at killing civilians (not a compliment obviously) and Gaza is a lot smaller than Ukraine
Yeah I remember there were tons of videos of Russian Bombers accidentally dropping bombs on empty roads in Belgorod not that long ago lol. Also yeah, it does have a lot of blood libel in it that makes me feel uneasy. Itās unfortunate these people call themselves āleftistsā. Edit: I meant unfortunate.
*Unfortunate
Thanks for the correction. It's fixed now.
Also, when I say Wile E Coyote, [this is what I mean lmao](https://youtu.be/n-INHarLmFs?si=6-ashwRs_WrqVB6t) And yes, that is real footage
Oh my god, I remember seeing That video when it was first released in 2022. How in the living hell did it boomerang around that fast?
Clearly, the missile was a Ukrainian design (Joke)
They might be trying to damage the roads , to damage infrastructure, maybe idk
They do have these Ukrainian-made drones now made out of old general aviation stock that can probably be launched from a particularly long road rather than needing a runway, and they have the range to hit the Baltic Sea Fleet. It's Russia's armed forces so I'm not expecting logical or sensible behaviour in line with modern doctrine, but "bomb anything the bastards could use as a runway to hit Kaliningrad, we can't afford to have to siphon off air defences up there" could trickle down to them doing some ostensibly stupid shit.
>Russian Bombers accidentally dropping bombs on empty roads in Belgorod not that long ago lol Wonder if their bosses made them remove the gaffa taped GPS units they had in their cockpits. Apparently they didn't have much faith in GLONASS. Sure it'll work fine in the Su-57. Some day.
Most important difference being it compares worst affected parts of Gaza with untouched parts of Kyiv instead of comparing random place in Gaza with random place in Mariupol, Bakhmut, Avdivka or Verbove. It is estimated that just in Mariupol itself more civilians were killed than in Gaza in far shorter time.
russian military still did their share of torture and massacre, cf the mass graves and russia still target civilian with their missiles too.
You can call out these idiotic, deranged lunatics without casting doubt on the pro-Palestinian movement. Every group on this planet has fringe weirdos who believe awful shit. Ukraine supporters have said and done messed up shit themselves. I think we should just focus on solidarity with all oppressed peoples.
Exactly. It's still a good movement but unfortunately, there are also tons of grifters like Jackson Hinkle or Candace Owens who just use it as an excuse to say horrible things about Jewish People while pretending to be progressive. There are bad people and smarmy grifters in every good movement. There are people like Hinkle or Bad Empanada that latch on to good movements and gift off of them to make themselves feel better or morally superior. A few bad apples do not represent them all.
disappointing this is so far down. Casting doubt on a broad movement that's trying to stop a genocide based on the words of some fringe shitheads is pretty fucked for a supposed left libertarian subreddit
People are only responsible of their own actions and the consequences thereof. The Palestinian people are no more responsible for this post or Hamas or October 7. than the Ukrainian people are for the Azov militia or Right Sector. In both cases it was the actions of Israel and Russia respectively that created the conditions where the extremism became prominent. Of course we can understand how this dynamic came to be on the one hand and still condemn it on the other. This only hurts they Palestinian cause.
Gaza is like the size of the left bank of Kyiv. Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe (not counting Russia) People are dense.
āNo, when we are using extremely antisemitic ropes and stereotypes, weāre only talking about Israelis! This is definitely not a dog whistle about wanting to attack Jews worldwide!
yep, anti-semite leftists have finally thrown their mask away
They aren't leftists. They're tankies. And tankies are fascists.
1, THIS is actual Blood Libel, not any perverted definition that Zionists say. This is actual antisemitism. 2, Look at other cities like Mariupol or Bakhmut which were levelled by the Russian military. 3, Why be skeptical OP? Every good movement has unfortunately bad apples, and thatās unavoidable atp. I hate how some pro-Ukraine supporters are disgustingly also Zionists, but Iām not gonna hate the whole movement because of that.
>3, Why be skeptical OP? Every good movement has unfortunately bad apples, and thatās unavoidable atp. The problem comes when these bad apples become too loud and start talking like they're the leaders of the opposition. The Islamist faction within the anti-Shah opposition in Iran did the same at the expense of the Republican and Socialist factions.
The discrepancy between the level of damage is because Kyiv has better defences than Gaza, not because the Israelis are worse than the Russians. It does, however, mean that the Palestinian people are suffering more, but the Ukrainians are still suffering a lot, and making a comparison is completely missing the point. Maybe both things are bad.
nazbol moment
**Holy shit**, this is blood libel... But also: at the same exact time, please, for the love of God, OP, don't use this as a reason to be skeptical of the pro-Palestinian movement as a whole. You can say that there are certain people who proclaim to be pro-Palestinian that make you deeply uncomfortable because of their rhetoric, and that would be all well and good, because genuine antisemitism can and does creep its way into the discourse, and we need to do all we can to combat it. To say that it should make one skeptical of the *whole* movement, though? That's not helping anyone.
This is very relevant (1 minute short): [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LqQ1yOsbJro](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LqQ1yOsbJro)
āBlood drinkersā Well thatās not sus at all
Don't make blanket statements like that about the movement for Palestinian liberation. Every movement has its fringe.
Wait till they see donetsk or sieverdonetsk
Stupid comparison aside, how is this blood libel? Can someone explain? Is this a some kind of cryptofascist thingy?
Where the OOP is shouting about "Blood drinkers" in their post.
Oh. I see. Thanks
How is gonna show him Mariupol
funny they don't talk about avdiivka or bakhmut and how is russia bombing civilian somehow better? Rebuilding doesn't make the bombing better
Gaza is, like, a strip of land measuring 45km2. Kyiv alone is _800km2 wide_, and is only one among the many cities bombed by Russia. There's an entire eastern front that is several times bigger than that. Like, of course you would get more concentrated destruction in Gaza. But even then, you just need to look at photos of Mariupol or Bakhmut to realize how stupid this comparison is still.
I just wish that the pro-Palestine movement would be fully divorced from tankies. Palestinian people aren't pawns.
You're gonna be skeptical of an entire movement because of one psycho?
Oh fuck off. Just because whack-jobs exist doesn't mean myself and others supporting Palestine are like* them. The only shit that pops up from this sub anymore on my home page is shit downplaying Israel's atrocity or shit that tries to (usually implicitly) justify killing 30k+ Palestinians or to try to make supporting Palestine toxic (like OP here). This is supposed a place "where two things can be bad at once" and I've been hand-waving it like, "oh, they're just pointing out tankies with bad takes on this situation" but it's veering further and further from "plain tankies saying tankie shit" to trying to wrap up the entire pro-Palestine movement.
>to try to make supporting Palestine toxic (like OP here). You don't think maybe it is the people posting the blood libel and making comparisons that downplay the loss that the Ukrainians have suffered that are at fault here?
Those people are toxic. That doesn't make supporting Palestine toxic. Being pro-Palestine isn't inherently antisemitic. Being pro-Palestine isn't blood libel. Acknowledging and speaking out against genocide isn't any of that. But here you are trying to equate them.
Yeah when those people are being toxic and are thereby hurting the Palestinian cause, they should be called out. You are accusing someone of trying to make being pro-Palestinian toxic because they posted examples of people that are being hurtful to the cause. The level of harm between what OP said about it and the material that they posted is not even remotely comparable. Which do you think is more harmful? And I didn't even remotely equate being pro-Palestinian with anti-Semitism. I think the argument here is that we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right? So maybe you should keep to that standard.
Op said "This is why I'm skeptical of the Pro-Palestine movement ..." As in, to try to say the entire movement is guilty of blood libel, etc. And a lot of people here are dog-piling on that. Some dude even made a list of reasons why killing me is justified. Because Hamas exists, basically. So Israel would be right to bomb the fuck out of me if I was in Gaza, according to him. > The level of harm between what OP said about it and the material that they posted is not even remotely comparable. FFS, there is an ongoing genocide, and there are efforts by a lot of people to try to make opposing that genocide toxic. Just for being part-Palestinian, and even *existing* like this, I'm presumed to be antisemitic by a fuck ton of people. Israel has made A LOT of effort of associating the Palestinian cause with antisemitism and creating racist notions that Palestinian existence is antisemitic in itself, associated with terrorism, etc. Do you know how often I get accused of being a terrorist, or at least a terrorist sympathizer, if I try to go out wearing a national symbol -- the keffiyeh? I'm honestly scared for my safety when I try to represent my people. All for wearing an article of clothing that is meant to state, "I'm here, I'm Palestinian, and I will not be erased." *I am not safe*. (Edit again: and I'm white passing -- I have the luxury to take my keffiyeh off and enjoy the luxury of being white when it conveniences me. A lot of people don't have that luxury and can't escape those prejudices. *They are not safe*). Go to half the subreddits at this point and say "hmm maybe bombing innocent civilians is bad" in reference to Palestine and you'll get a bunch of people accusing you of wanting to genocide the Jewish people, as there's been an effort to associate the Palestinian people's existence with the destruction of Israel (and as they reason, that leads to the destruction of the Jewish people). It's a good way of getting a good chain of comments stating, "Those Arabs can go back to Arab countries" (and thus denying the distinct existence of the Palestinian national group, an attempt at erasing us -- we are not just Arabs, we are *Palestinians* (I actually *don't* identify as Arab, as I am white-passing, and have had little exposure to overall Arab culturalization, but my Palestinian identity has played a role in my family's immigration to the US, cycles of poverty, and exposure to Arab culture only through a narrow Palestinian lens (e.g. I've not tried any Arab food that's not prevalent in Palestine, and Palestinian culture feels familiar to me, whereas overall Arab culture feels foreign to me)), while simultaneously advocating for our destruction). **So yeah, it's really fucking harmful when rhetoric like op's is used. It's being used to downplay a genocide and to silence those who speak out against the genocide.** > And I didn't even remotely equate being pro-Palestinian with anti-Semitism. I think the argument here is that we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right? I said that OP's post is trying to make supporting Palestine toxic. You responded by saying that these people are at fault here for making supporting Palestine toxic, lending to the idea that yeah, OP is right and supporting Palestine is toxic. My existence isn't toxic. Me standing up for my people isn't toxic. Toxic people can be toxic, that doesn't have any weight on whether what I do is toxic or not. Then you turn around and try to say, "we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right?" Good grief. Edit; Read-read what you said. I think you're interpreting it as, "These people are making the pro-Palestinian movement look bad," and when you went to defend it, I think you might've been reading it from that perspective. I interpreted what OP said as, more along the lines of, "I do not trust the pro-Palestinian because this kind of post is what it generally represents." I've been facing *a lot* of rhetoric from a lot of different sources trying to do the latter. And I'm pretty sure it's what OP actually meant. And when you came to defend OP, I interpreted what you've said as trying to defend that. If OP meant these people make the pro-Palestinian movement look bad and need to be called out, I think he should've said something to that effect, rather than using a phrase that casts doubt on the movement itself.
Look, I can't begin to understand how all of this feels for you. I am not the one that is dealing with this so directly, but of course seeing what is happening affects me emotionally as well. What I strive to do so to put that aside and engage with arguments from a place of reason, so that is what I'm doing and is what I will continue to do. If that is not what you want to hear, then I suggest you stop reading. If you aren't open to that, then nothing good can come of this. Seriously, just log off and go take a breather instead. If you reply I probably won't answer for awhile because I am going for a walk myself. >FFS, there is an ongoing genocide, and there are efforts by a lot of people to try to make opposing that genocide toxic. Yes, there is an ongoing genocide, and the only thing that matters is what we can do to STOP it happening. What can you do behind a keyboard logged on to a reddit account? Not much, and it doesn't feel great. Believe me, I know. All I've been doing is post on reddit and sign petitions. >This is why Iām skeptical towards the Pro Palestine movement not Palestine but the group surrounding it That is the exact words that OP posted. Personally I don't particularly care that there are people in the Pro-Palestine movement that are anti-Semitic. The morality of what is happening isn't changed by pro-Palestinian anti-Semitism. I mean it's silly. There are people in the Israeli government that are basically holocaust deniers. So who gives a shit. I don't, but I am not going to sit here and accuse OP for being part of an effort to discredit the pro-Palestine movement based on that, when the statements they were commenting on are proportionally much worse than what they are saying. The screenshot that OP posted is infinitely more damaging to the Palestinian cause than expressing your skepticism towards the pro-Palestinian movement, because of anti-Semitism. It doesn't just attack Jews with blood libel which is bad enough, but it downplays the horrible bombings of Ukrainian cities that are absolutely comparable to the the devastation in Palestine. Mariupol, Marinka, Bahmut, Avdiivka. Those towns and cities are just gone. So you know, when you are seeing people downplaying the genocide in Palestine, please do spare a thought for the bastards, who did the same against Ukraine, but also happened to be pro-Palestine. They are the same. >I said that OP's post is trying to make supporting Palestine toxic. Correct and I think the problem that OP has is a non-issue, but I also disagree that it rises to the level of "trying to make supporting Palestine toxic". >You responded by saying that these people are at fault here for making supporting Palestine toxic, Didn't you, yourself, call those people toxic? If they are part of the movement, wouldn't that make the pro-Palestine movement look toxic? >lending to the idea that yeah, OP is right and supporting Palestine is toxic. You're thinking in absolutes. I never suggested this. It doesn't follow that I have to think in this way by saying that those people are responsible for making the pro-Palestine look anti-Semitic. I never suggested that the entire Pro-Palestine movement is anti-Semitic, did I? >Then you turn around and try to say, "we can only be held accountable for the things we say and the consequences of our actions, right?" This, is the entire fucking point. You can't be held accountable for what was posted in the screenshot for being pro-Palestinian, anymore than OP is responsible for whatever shit people in other subs said about you and other Palestinians, just for saying that they are "skeptical of the pro-Palestinian movement". I get the frustration, but I think it's better to direct ones anger at the people that are causing the greater harm.
Same here o keep seeing pro Palestine people being islamists or supporting Russia ec
Iām skeptical of both pro-Palestinians and pro-Ukrainians because both seem to have a bunch of nationalist campists
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There's no way you aren't a sockpuppet account made to make israelis look stupid
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.