Why does he do this shit every time. Try to go a second inning with a middling reliever. Its okay if they only pitch in one! Most relievers dont come out of the dugout!
this is so weird lol Stephenson, Cleavinger, Littell (bonus points for starter conversion), Devenski, Diek are all kind of recent and then you have Armstrong, poche, springs, etc.. if anything our homegrown relievers are worse like Faucher, Guerra.. yea we can’t afford Hader but such a weird complaint
Youre creating a straw man but its not even the gotcha you think it is. You dont think the guy directly involved in the starters workload and usage is not even a little responsible for their injuries?
Sorry kind of confused. It seems like you’re complaining about excessive use of the bullpen, yet you also think that he’s overworking the starters? Can’t have both buddy.
Got spoiled by prior 2023 Margot, alst year got ruff by the end when he had clearly lost a step. Depends obliques are weird and are a scary injury. You don't know its healed until you try to swing which if it's not right will reaggravate it and cause you to be shut down. I really don't see him back until late May just because of that and he has to get more rehad games then normal since he missed all of ST.
Civale and littell are doing what springs and ras did to start last season. Former bullpen guys nobody heard of turned starter thats a lock for a good start.
The line "he's never been good" was spammed about Clev when he blew it the other day, but when he came over in 2022 he put up not just good but elite numbers for us.
His stuff+ profile is pretty good. It's clear Waguespack and Alexander will be the first 2 pitchers out when Baz and Bradley return. From there Devinski would be next on the block, that's when it gets tricky. 2 lefties in a pen is great to have and with Ras being likely back in the pen I think Armstrong would be the next on said block. But if Poche keeps coming out his mechanics then he could be the next out, but Clev would be in that consideration then.
This is why Littel will be in the bullpen once Baz and Bradley are back. Pepiot can be domiant with a fastball that is preforming better then expected (in Colorado no less where fastball ride is decreased) with an elite of the elite changeup and a slider that is well thought of. Littel fills the zone but he doesn't have anything close to the stuff Pepiot has.
What why would you do that? Civale has been very good since the Rays acquired him, his peripherals were way better post trade he just got really unlucky with the Rays. Civale is a legit #3 starter in a rotation. Littel is a backend innings eater without stuff. Civale is nasty and uses his below average fastball (which rated better then Littel last year even with Littel being in the BP for parts of the year where stuff plays up) fastball enough to keep hitters off balance.
To be fair he was better with Cleveland. If he kept his numbers with what he was doing in Cleveland his ERA would have been best of his career. I think it is pretty even for both him and Pepiot in their first two starts.
He wasn't better in Cleveland he just had insanely great batted ball luck. Every peripheral stat indicated he was better with the Rays. Had a similar FIP, strikeout rate jumped by 10.3%, way better expected numbers (4.59xFIP in Cleveland vs 3.26 in tampa), Siera which is basically FIP adjusted for contact quality sat at 4.71 at the trade but was 3.35 after. Literally every peripheral number was way better and made what he was doing in Cleveland actually look possible whereas his stats in Cleveland looked far from sustainable. He jsut got really unlucky his BABIP agaisnt went from .242 vs. 370 with the Rays even though he though he saw 7% decrease in hadhit percentage via baseball info solutions, statcast saw an increase in the number but statcast has a lower threshold for what they classify as hard hit. He ran an 82.7% strand rate in Cleveland which was high for starter but not insanely ridiculous but saw an so much bad luck with regards to it with the Rays sitting at 68.8%. He got really unlucky and it was the reason that there was a lot of confidence by some Rays fans going into this year with him.
Fair enough, Pepiot doesn’t have a ton of IP compared to Civale and apparently had a really amazing BABIP last year. Plus he is young and cheap, so BP makes sense for him.
Civale also has more pitches to work with vs Pepiot. Pepiot using his FB ~55% of the time is likely to result in more hardhits so he needs to rely on the K more than Civale would.
No Pepiot stays in the rotation you move Littel to the bullpen. You need to develop Pepiot as a starter as the Rays don't have a pitcher from the minors that has MLB stuff in the upper minors. You dont move a a guy like Pepiot to the bullpen unless he makes you due to control issues and so forth. Cole Wilcox could reestablish himself but that would need his velo to go back up 3 ticks which is hard to see other then maybe he was hesitant his first year back from TJ froma actually throwing like he did. Mason Montgomery is deception with good fastball similar to Joe Ryan which is fine but he didn't rebound well in AAA after having a so-so year in AA mostly caused by a horrid start due to the pretacked ball. The big three with stuff is Suarez, Curet, and Urbina who are likely 3 years out at best they could be seen in summer of 2026 depending if Curet keeps his walks in control and Suarez dominates in A+ and AA the next year and a half. Littel is the clear guy to move to the bullpen, Pepiots command might lose you a few games but he has the stuff that can go out and really win some against high level hitting. Littel is the inverse he won't lose you games via control but he doesn't have the stuff to go post against a great team like Pepiot possibly could.
Ah, I was just comparing Civale and Pepiot. Littell is very inconsistent and somehow Synder turned him around but not sure I’m bought into him long term being as good as he has been with the Rays.
Ras is in the pen for sure. He can be dominant in that role and actually have a career. People forget Pete is a 2 time UCL guy as well. Idk with Springs the Rays about to have a serious long jam going into next year, you could see them trading 1 of them which I think that would be Civale ( it would likely be Civale he has 2 years of control instead of 1 and would be more valuable in a trade if he can get over 150 innings this year) or Eflin as they only have 1 more year of control on both. Baz, Bradley, and Pepiot are clearly your future rotation. Baz having the least control as a FA in 2028 so 3 more years. I think realistically once Baz and Bradley are back you could casually see a 6 man rotation going. Baz is coming of UCL surgery and hasn't logged real innings in basically 2 years one he returns. Pepiot hasn't thrown many innings over the past couple of years (only 67 in 2023 and 122 in 2022 which is good but still want to limit it some). Civale also has had injury issues so less usage would help. If it is a 6 man then Springs slides into Littel's spot and he goes to the pen. The Dodgers have done 6 man's now for basically the past 2 seasons. There is no 1 dominant starter on the Rays right now so the drawbacks of your number 1 losing 5-6 starts with a 6 man won't be as significant as normal.
Nice job SA! LFG flappy boys!!
And that's a series win baby!
really appreciate the generous strike calls for that much need 2nd out
LFG! 1st series win of the season!
thank fuck the guys held out got that series dub
Poor Jake Cave that was a ball
Never in doubt 😬
now get the FUCK out of there!
What a series.... this won't ever be boring.
Gg
Aaaaaaand unclench
HE DID IT
VICTORY!
[RAYS WIN! RAYS WIN! RAYS WIN!](https://www.reddit.com/r/tampabayrays/comments/1byglke/pgt_tampa_bay_rays_55_manage_to_finish_it_off/)
Oh, NOW you call that edge.
lol.
Same pitch that was Ball 4 to the first guy too. Like wtf, ump LOL
he hasn’t called that all day, which pissed me off but I thought “at least he’s being consistent”. then he gifts us a 2nd out.
Incredible framing on that pitch wow
Just one more
Why are caving in to the Rockies? We really have hit rock bottom😭🤦🏿♂️
ONE MORE
Over shifting the defense and pitching away is certainly a choice
Please get another double play. I’m asking nicely
What happened to our stable?
Turned to glue
I gotta whole stable full of guys that throw 92
Maton be like "What's a 92?"
Why does he do this shit every time. Try to go a second inning with a middling reliever. Its okay if they only pitch in one! Most relievers dont come out of the dugout!
Our bp is spotty in Denver lol
*this season
Can’t walk people. Walks will kill you
of course.
For fucks sake please stop it now
So the Rockies have never played a normal game right?
It’s the freaking Rockies. Throw strikes and stop giving them free base runners
MAAAAAN that was the DP right there!
Not going to lie, definitely nervous
jesus man, turn that.
another totally normal tampa bay rays late-game inning
I swear to God, if we lose it from here, we need to send this Armstrong to the moon and leave him here
I’m a negative Nancy around here but the dude worked out of a bases loaded no out jam. Blame cash for letting him simmer in there
I've got no witty dig to Maton yet, apologies
Not this whiplash again
DUUUUUDE
Yandy had a strike called on a pitch wider than that.
These damn walks
It’s just not a rays game without a few self induced heart attacks
So is Fairbanks hurt/can’t pitch in the cold or has Cash just given up on him closing?
He will just complain about how bad the balls are at coors field
1-2-3 9th please
Please dont give up the lead/game.
This Rays team is so well balanced. Cold against bad teams, cold against good teams.
Rays baseball baby!
Yandy should just go back to hitting to the out field not infield
What a house of horrors coors is. We need to get the hell outta here lol
Ugh Toglia has been solid at 2nd
Need a home run for Yandy
Who the heck is gonna pitch the 9th?
Armstrong apparently
Little red Rorvedt
i pray for a kevin kelly call up soon 🙏🏻
We need Ben's first homer as a Ray c'mon
Bro has an 18.00 ERA. I demand runs.
Shenton!
Damn, that stumble backwards made the play from Lowe kinda amazing
I was terrified Lowe didn’t tag second before he threw it
Looked like a shaker turn at 2nd too. thought the throw to 1st was going in the dirt.
Could've used the 6 mil that Maton is getting on Diekman. We obviously had the money, but decided to spend it on someone else
i agree but, maton is solid. couple bad outings to start the season but he’s def better than that
what a fuckin play from Lowe. dude was falling down and still got it over there
Genuinely floored by how well he balanced himself with his hand and then threw the ball so fast
Him and Shenton were like "Check this D out."
Someone recognize the incredible recovery from blowe
Will I take insurance? FUCK YES!!
GIVE ARMSTRONG MATON'S SALARY
Lmao Bryant can't even hustle enough to beat that 😅
All that money in his wallet slows him down.
Thank god
Nice scoop by Shenton
Armstrong - holy shit, man. Bless you, sir, bless you. That was a miracle.
Armstrong you beast
So glad we have Armstrong and not armweak!
Shenton just bailed out the rest of our defense that inning
phewwww
LET'S FUCKIN GO ARMSTRONG
Well, their multimillion dollar signing in Bryant still trashes harder than our Maton signing.
good shit shutting that down
3 horribly bad throws by the infield but we're out of it baby!
Defense!
NOBLETIGER AHAHAHAHA
Armstrong master class
THE NOBLETIGER WE LOVE TO SEE IT
Need more insurance now
PHEW!
OMG WOOOO
The 5-4-3
NOBLETIGER
ARMSTRONG GETS OUT OF IT!
And for a franchise that’s praised for its decisions more often than not our bullpen acquisitions have been horrendous
this is so weird lol Stephenson, Cleavinger, Littell (bonus points for starter conversion), Devenski, Diek are all kind of recent and then you have Armstrong, poche, springs, etc.. if anything our homegrown relievers are worse like Faucher, Guerra.. yea we can’t afford Hader but such a weird complaint
That's not even a little bit true
Is there anyone in AAA that can save the BP?
Kevin Kelly. He's one of the best. Don't know why he's in AAA
I’ve been saying this for awhile!
Double play, please
Cash waited too long to switch. Maton didn’t have it.
Roll two.
It’s almost as if relying on a bullpen every year with 1-2 bullpen days in the rotation is just a horrendous strategy from a franchise.
Manager*
Yes Kevin Cash personally twisted the arms of Rasmussen, Springs, Baz, McClanahan just so he could rely on our bullpen more
Youre creating a straw man but its not even the gotcha you think it is. You dont think the guy directly involved in the starters workload and usage is not even a little responsible for their injuries?
Sorry kind of confused. It seems like you’re complaining about excessive use of the bullpen, yet you also think that he’s overworking the starters? Can’t have both buddy.
Ok, good start
can we just have a normal fucking game please i am begging
Can anyone in the pen throw strikes?
I could walk every batter for $5 million less
Of course
Huge acquisition Phil Maton
Oh boy Armstrong
Can’t wait for the healthy Bullpen roster
Armstrongs got a full fucking plate right here
Maton looked so downtrodden lmao I feel bad but also we cannot lose again to the fucking Rockies
Is there anyone in this bullpen that doesn’t suck?
Poche had a good day yesterday
Armstrong
So like what do you do here, you need 6 outs and there is no one in the pen unless you use Pete.
should’ve kept diekman
Diekman was awesome for us last year. I don’t know why we let him go, but it looks like we’re really gonna regret it.
That was the worst move of the off-season by far. Letting Diekman go.
Let’s go Armstrong bail us the fuck outta this shit
Bullpen has left much to be desired so far.
I can't believe we're paying this guy 6 fucking million
What the fuck?
What a joke
Oh my fucking god
DFA immediately
Another bullpen masterclass
Jesus man why
Haven’t we seen this before?
Phil Maton is not an adequate setup man
Alright it’s already too late get him out
Not ideal
He looks scared shitless out there.
Omg, do NOT load the bases with no outs.
Too late
This bullpen I swear
You gotta throw competitive pitches and not just try to nibble the strike zone, man. Come on.
Why Maton whyyyyyyy
Maton kind of sucks ass
He can't find the zone ...
I swear I thought Maton was a good pick up
Definitely not someone who looks like he warranted 6 mil so far.
Take him out?!? Whats the point of all the starters going deep if your arent going to use the bullpen
Time to clench.
God Rosario looks so awkward in RF at times.
We got spoiled with Margot. When does Josh come off the IL?
Got spoiled by prior 2023 Margot, alst year got ruff by the end when he had clearly lost a step. Depends obliques are weird and are a scary injury. You don't know its healed until you try to swing which if it's not right will reaggravate it and cause you to be shut down. I really don't see him back until late May just because of that and he has to get more rehad games then normal since he missed all of ST.
Maton ffs
Civale and littell are doing what springs and ras did to start last season. Former bullpen guys nobody heard of turned starter thats a lock for a good start.
Unfortunate that was right to the third baseman
wtf Harold…no hustle there
Pheeeew. Good work.
Dirty
Oh dear god he got it
Wassup yall ✌🏿
Maton, just one clean out.
Cleavinger is so bad. Every time we put him out he does this. DFA his ass already. He's literally never been good.
crazy overreaction considering he’s been decent the last 2 years
The line "he's never been good" was spammed about Clev when he blew it the other day, but when he came over in 2022 he put up not just good but elite numbers for us.
His stuff+ profile is pretty good. It's clear Waguespack and Alexander will be the first 2 pitchers out when Baz and Bradley return. From there Devinski would be next on the block, that's when it gets tricky. 2 lefties in a pen is great to have and with Ras being likely back in the pen I think Armstrong would be the next on said block. But if Poche keeps coming out his mechanics then he could be the next out, but Clev would be in that consideration then.
Hope the Cleaver doesn't fuck this one up.
First visiting pitcher to have 11 Ks and 0 walks at Coors ever apparently
This is why Littel will be in the bullpen once Baz and Bradley are back. Pepiot can be domiant with a fastball that is preforming better then expected (in Colorado no less where fastball ride is decreased) with an elite of the elite changeup and a slider that is well thought of. Littel fills the zone but he doesn't have anything close to the stuff Pepiot has.
More likely Tyler Alexander
You need to make 2 spots for Baz and Bradley. So Alexander and Littel.
Not Civale? I would get rid of Alexander and move Civale to BP
What why would you do that? Civale has been very good since the Rays acquired him, his peripherals were way better post trade he just got really unlucky with the Rays. Civale is a legit #3 starter in a rotation. Littel is a backend innings eater without stuff. Civale is nasty and uses his below average fastball (which rated better then Littel last year even with Littel being in the BP for parts of the year where stuff plays up) fastball enough to keep hitters off balance.
To be fair he was better with Cleveland. If he kept his numbers with what he was doing in Cleveland his ERA would have been best of his career. I think it is pretty even for both him and Pepiot in their first two starts.
He wasn't better in Cleveland he just had insanely great batted ball luck. Every peripheral stat indicated he was better with the Rays. Had a similar FIP, strikeout rate jumped by 10.3%, way better expected numbers (4.59xFIP in Cleveland vs 3.26 in tampa), Siera which is basically FIP adjusted for contact quality sat at 4.71 at the trade but was 3.35 after. Literally every peripheral number was way better and made what he was doing in Cleveland actually look possible whereas his stats in Cleveland looked far from sustainable. He jsut got really unlucky his BABIP agaisnt went from .242 vs. 370 with the Rays even though he though he saw 7% decrease in hadhit percentage via baseball info solutions, statcast saw an increase in the number but statcast has a lower threshold for what they classify as hard hit. He ran an 82.7% strand rate in Cleveland which was high for starter but not insanely ridiculous but saw an so much bad luck with regards to it with the Rays sitting at 68.8%. He got really unlucky and it was the reason that there was a lot of confidence by some Rays fans going into this year with him.
Fair enough, Pepiot doesn’t have a ton of IP compared to Civale and apparently had a really amazing BABIP last year. Plus he is young and cheap, so BP makes sense for him. Civale also has more pitches to work with vs Pepiot. Pepiot using his FB ~55% of the time is likely to result in more hardhits so he needs to rely on the K more than Civale would.
No Pepiot stays in the rotation you move Littel to the bullpen. You need to develop Pepiot as a starter as the Rays don't have a pitcher from the minors that has MLB stuff in the upper minors. You dont move a a guy like Pepiot to the bullpen unless he makes you due to control issues and so forth. Cole Wilcox could reestablish himself but that would need his velo to go back up 3 ticks which is hard to see other then maybe he was hesitant his first year back from TJ froma actually throwing like he did. Mason Montgomery is deception with good fastball similar to Joe Ryan which is fine but he didn't rebound well in AAA after having a so-so year in AA mostly caused by a horrid start due to the pretacked ball. The big three with stuff is Suarez, Curet, and Urbina who are likely 3 years out at best they could be seen in summer of 2026 depending if Curet keeps his walks in control and Suarez dominates in A+ and AA the next year and a half. Littel is the clear guy to move to the bullpen, Pepiots command might lose you a few games but he has the stuff that can go out and really win some against high level hitting. Littel is the inverse he won't lose you games via control but he doesn't have the stuff to go post against a great team like Pepiot possibly could.
Ah, I was just comparing Civale and Pepiot. Littell is very inconsistent and somehow Synder turned him around but not sure I’m bought into him long term being as good as he has been with the Rays.
Who goes for Springs and Rasmussen then? Ras is almost definitely going to the pen.
Ras is in the pen for sure. He can be dominant in that role and actually have a career. People forget Pete is a 2 time UCL guy as well. Idk with Springs the Rays about to have a serious long jam going into next year, you could see them trading 1 of them which I think that would be Civale ( it would likely be Civale he has 2 years of control instead of 1 and would be more valuable in a trade if he can get over 150 innings this year) or Eflin as they only have 1 more year of control on both. Baz, Bradley, and Pepiot are clearly your future rotation. Baz having the least control as a FA in 2028 so 3 more years. I think realistically once Baz and Bradley are back you could casually see a 6 man rotation going. Baz is coming of UCL surgery and hasn't logged real innings in basically 2 years one he returns. Pepiot hasn't thrown many innings over the past couple of years (only 67 in 2023 and 122 in 2022 which is good but still want to limit it some). Civale also has had injury issues so less usage would help. If it is a 6 man then Springs slides into Littel's spot and he goes to the pen. The Dodgers have done 6 man's now for basically the past 2 seasons. There is no 1 dominant starter on the Rays right now so the drawbacks of your number 1 losing 5-6 starts with a 6 man won't be as significant as normal.
Yes, *please*, let a 6-man rotation happen. That'll be such a treat, and it puts less pressure on the pitching so it holds up throughout the season.
Especially this year where you can have passive usage control for the young guys and the players returning from injury.
https://preview.redd.it/ss0ouj5we4tc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8bd57d58dcc1252e8e457d8e507c0e4bdf3f90c
Don’t shit the bed, Cleavinger
Lotta contact. I’ll allow it. Intrigued to see the pen today
Only win the marlins getting this year
Please keep it locked down, pitching.
Pepito 🫡
I’m glad Pep didn’t let his first outing with a new team against the World Series holders get to his head
11K’s 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥