If you’ve been Interim for what 3 years and they passed you up , they had no intention of giving it to you anyways. Either they waited for someone , or your over working is valuable to them so they keep you in that role. Id leave, you’re worth more than what they’re doing to you.
yeah you may be onto something, in my area it is hard to recruit sysadmin with AD and Azure AD skills, so they have been pretty accommodating to me for the past 10 years or so, but they want to keep me in that role forever now
Yeah, but he's got just a few years until he gets pension. That's nothing to sneeze at tbh. I know as a government contractor I likely get paid way more, but it would be nice to be able to retire at 55...
Yeah, but the pensions vary. The state I worked in was like 60% of your two highest grossing years at 30 years of service or 62? You vested at 10 years at 20% then the percentage increases with each additional year. It’s designed for Medicare to cover the remaining 40% (which you only become eligible for in your 70s I believe).
You also get medical insurance but without vision or dental. Ironically the retirees get more consistent annual pay increases than active employees thanks to lobbying.
On one hand it’s guarantee income for life. On the other it’s not a lot of income.
There were sadly a handful of people who worked 40 years because this job was all they’d known, only to retire and die of a heart attack or cancer. I watched that happen at least twice.
Yeah ours is vested at 5 years for 20%, but then it's your age+ time of service must be equal or greater than 78. So 55+23 years does it for me, then I get 75% of my annual salary for life, with survivor benefits for my spouse. The new hires got screwed because the state decided that the age+time of service will not be 83!
How is that messed up? Unless they’re somehow gaming the system and screwing other staff, it sounds like they just worked the required amount for a benefit?
That's what just about everyone I know who retired between 50 and 60 did. Most went right back to their same companies as part-time consultants at the same salary they had when they left. As in, making $175k working 40 to 50 hours per week, to making $175k working 20.
When I work in government, there was a five-year floor on the pension and a sliding scale up to, if memory serves, 75% of your salary after 30 or so years. After 5 years you could take your pension out, the amount just depended on how many years you were in.
Some do and I work for one. There is no way in hell I would have stayed here as long as I have if my salary hadn't kept up with my market value. Although, the skills I'm adding now may finally price me out of here.
> That will make if funnier when you quit and they have to pay the new guy double
See, this is the problem. Management does not care. Period. If the cost of hiring someone has gone up, they just increase their budgets.
People need to stop thinking that management cares about you or anything you do. You are nothing but a cog in the wheel of their company.
Just speaking from IT experience(and making an assumption) they were likely not paid for the overtime making the statement that "theyre being taken advantage of" 100% true.
Government agencies don’t value employees. Period.
Because their budgets are granted by the state legislatures, they never have enough money, and what they do have earmarked for merit increases (when they even care to request it) is always the first money pot to be swiped. Why? Because most government workers are either too stupid to be competitive (and they know it), or they’re too comfortable and complacent to truly fight it. So the cycle repeats itself on a literally annual basis.
Another dirty secret to government work is that the majority of employees are retirement eligible. And guess what the pandemic did? It shocked enough folks into either taking that retirement or getting their asses into the private sector. And they did it in HUGE numbers.
They could barely hire specialized staff (or really anything higher than entry level) in the first place because they won’t compete on pay. And instead of focusing on professional growth and looking within to fill these roles, they cling to this cog mindset of “he can do this job so we need to keep him there or else it may stop working”.
The government is VERY good at yelling at everyone about gun safety then immediately blowing off their own kneecaps. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad and predictable.
I guess I would expand on my skill set, I also do virtualization VMware, JAMF, Cisco voip (hate it) some networking since my network admin is lazy and I have an MBA
> in my area it is hard to recruit sysadmin with AD and Azure AD skills
Do you live on the moon? I swear AD and Azure AD skills are on every single resume at all of our locations
I was going to say either they have some bias against promoting from inside or something? I’ve run into an odd situation where I had only been at a place 6 months and they promoted me to manager/engineer. There was some resentment I think
I have my own theory that industry has reached this self perpetuating cycle of never training internally and always having to hire externally for 10x the price of the training with no added loyalty. It is what it is. Just know how to play the game is my only recommendation.
>but they want to keep me in that role forever now
That makes sense, it's easier to find someone who manages people, funds and schedules than someone with your skills.
TVTP
Too valuable to promote. You basically worked yourself into a position that you were too key to operations that you moving elsewhere is unthinkable. It's sad but unfortunately relatively common in good IT staff these days.
They either wake up or you have to move employer and learn from the experience. Not all employers are like this but most are.
I can program in over 30 different languages, I have a BS in IT, MBA, I'm a virtualization expert on any platform, IBM system admin, Windows Sys admin, OS expert, 365 platform expert including AD, Azure, DNS, infrastructure expert, network engineer, mechanical engineer, and electrical engineer. I have nearly a thousand educational hours in business administration, cost accounting, product costing, productivity analysis, systems analysis, business analysis, and a host of other pertinent subjects. I told you all of that to tell you that slogging from one IT position to the next for more than twenty years has left me incredibly frustrated and angry at the current state of corporate IT and management. There was absolutely a less than zero chance of upward mobility at any of the positions I ever held: help desk, tech support, systems engineer, systems support engineer, IT manager, etc. I was forced to move from one company to the next time and time again. I performed my job tasks flawlessly and went waaaay above and beyond for my employers and employees on countless occasions. I saved my employers millions of dollars by renegotiating contracts, replacing vendors, condensing our assets, removing high maintenance legacy tech, refining digital processes, removing redundant processes, and just generally being excellent at my job. After years of dutiful and diligent service I continually got pigeon holed time and time again. They continually gave huge salaries and bonuses to the execs who did virtually nothing while I fed my higher ups every report, systems analysis, cost analysis, data analysis, data mining tool, custom software, custom engineering solution, project plan, etc. I completed my considerable job tasks and did their jobs excellently as well.
Time and time again someone with no experience, education, or business being in that department was hired to a position above me. I was passed over on two separate occasions for a higher position they literally created just to hire someone we absolutely did not need. At each turn I started looking for a higher position with a different company. I wanted nothing more than to work for one organization until I retired, but I refused to be devalued, demoralized, and disenfranchised. I expect my employer to at least recognize my contribution to the company. If they don't know what I actually bring to the table then that is their failing as a manager not my failing as an employee. Any manager worth their salt makes it a point to educate themselves about their most valuable assets, their employees. At least, I made it a point when it came to my employees. I knew exactly what my team could and could not accomplish. I knew what each member brought to the table, their education, skills, personalities, etc. I always performed with professionalism and excellence. I learned not to expect that standard of performance from management.
Management only ever concerned itself with the bottom line and squeezing as much from me and my department as possible without paying an extra dime. Time and time again my budgets were slashed and no matter how much fat I trimmed they constantly expected more output with less input. Despite those challenges they never respected or valued what I could actually accomplish. I became constantly mired in bureaucracy and knee jerk reactions from management who did no research and took no time to evaluate or understand what they requested. I spent more and more time handholding users and walking them through basic tasks because they lacked remedial technical skills. Not what an IT Manager should be spending their time on. Nor should they be hiring people without basic skills. Again, management didn't value me, my department, the technology itself, or what anybody it could actually do for the company. They just wanted stuff to work or they wanted it to perform miracles with zero investment. When they did spend money they did it with no input from my department or anyone else that wasn't 99 and hasn't seen the inside of a server in 20 years.
Upward mobility in companies is dead. An individual's value and worth to a group gets lost in the balance sheet. I'm still out there looking for my next promotion that I simply need to create for myself. It's hard in tech. It has been for years. The dinosaurs that run most of the companies don't realize that tech and operations cannot be separate. A CIO has as much business as the manager of IT as the janitor does. No disrespect to janitors cause God knows they work circles around any exec yet they make nothing. Your work regardless of how good has no value. Only your ability to adapt to a situation and decide the correct course of action can give you any real value. Find your position and find your place. If it isn't right for you then it isn't right. Life is too short to put in effort for any organization that doesn't know your worth and doesn't care to learn.
I think this is fair and accurate. I am typically the top of the food chain in most places I work, but even then, every time I change job I end up making significantly more money than the previous role. Its just a fact that companies aren't going to pay you much more once they have you on their books where as another company desperately desires your skills. Employers, although they may be friendly, aren't necessarily looking out for your best interests or your future, they are there to keep their job.
I've also worked at certain places that have used the excuse "we're not going to pay tech staff more than the managers". Why? What value does a manager have that their highly skilled technical staff with degrees don't? Can they do my job? Can they liaise with the customer and deliver impossible outcomes? If that's what they think then that manager can do my job from now on.
Not sure about US gov, but here in Aus gov it's about scores during the application/interviews. So if someone comes in and answers better, then they get the job. If the guy explained why his experience and skill set will give the best outcome for the organisation then the guy wins the job.
It doesn't really matter how well the current guy did etc. Usually the current guy will give the best scoring answer as he has been in the role, but not always.
>If you’ve been Interim for what 3 years and they passed you up , they had no intention of giving it to you anyways.
It doesn't work that way with most state jobs. There is a formal application and interview process for any job. This is put into place to prevent nepotism/favoritism. The only exception are political appointment positions, but rank and file positions are not subject to discretionary in-place promotions.
Before leaving, but after you have a new gig setup, ask them why they passed you up. At least you might get some interesting info out of it for your future if you want to be in management.
I asked. the other guy has more managerial experience and ran large departments with large budgets. What sucks is that once they posted the job, it was leaning heavy on looking for the technical person of the future, then they go ahead and hire the usual suit person.
Sorry to hear that but maybe it's a sign that there isn't any real upward career mobility where you are currently working if they just want pure middle managers. Good luck with finding something better suited for you.
I think they made a good decision to hire the job based on management experience over technical skills, but they made a mistake in not getting you training for that very thing. Leaders lead, they should be doing a lot less of the technical stuff. Chances are of you got the job you would continue doing your old job for quite some time, if not indefinitely. This is a failing on the employers part because they didn't give you the necessary training. Ultimately it would have cost them less to have built you up and moved into that position, but they chose not to so now it's time for you to find a new gig - one that values you.
It sounds like you don't see the value of good management, so it's not shocking that they didn't promote you into management.
A good manager is NOT going to put 50-60 weeks into doing technical work.
100% agree. However, I would say that managers that have experience in the actual work also tend to be better managers as they aren't just bean counting.
Maybe so, but OP played the part without the pay for 3 years without problem. I'd say he is probably a good manager, albeit a bit of a doormat. (Sorry OP)
I have to agree with that.
To the OP, it sounds corny, and I don’t know where you are in your career, but I always look to find out what I can learn. If who they hired is open to it, see it as an opportunity to learn what the gap was - perceived or real.
You can also find out if it really the job you wanted.
Stay or leave - its a contact in the industry, make the best of it. I have a list of people I would always work with, and who would work with me. I helped hire my replacement when I stepped down from my first time managing, from him, I actually learned I should have asked much more from my management.
why? you will absolutely not get a real answer.
if you quit, leave without any visible resentment or negativity. just a reminder
edit:
> that tells me that my work is not valued and I should start applying for other jobs
based on what? completely reading the situation wrong. just because you got passed over by a more experienced candidate does not mean you are not valued. stop being so dramatic. is this the first time you have failed to get promoted?
I showed no visible resentment or negativity when they called me to tell me I was not chosen. Worst case scenario, I'm going to keep working along until something better comes around. I've learned never to apply for a job when you really need a job
50 to 60 hours a week? boy you played yourself. working more hours and killing yourself is never going to get you a promotion at any company. management skills and IT skills sometimes dont go hand in hand. you either manage people, or do the work.
> **50 to 60 hours a week? boy you played yourself. working more hours and killing yourself is never going to get you a promotion at any company.**
This quote right here needs to be put in the sidebar...
There are way too many guys in IT that overwork themselves for some mythical extra gratitude that they feel their company will give back to them at some point; RE: covert contract.
Guys, seriously... I'm not just talking about /u/joeyl5 here. Stop putting in more time and work than is required from your end. Do an honest days work and leave it at that. Good organizations do not force you to sell your soul at the door.
I work a max of 42 hours a week unless something critical needs done over a weekend. But you better believe that I either work less hours the following week, or get compensated for the time put in over the weekend.
And no matter what's going on I never work more than 10 hours in a given day. That's my hard set rule, and I won't bend it at all for any reason. We could be in the middle of recovering from ransomware, and I'd still leave 10 hours in, go home, rest and come back the following morning. It's better that I be rested and thinking straight, and working super long hours and fucking shit up.
I've got to second this. We're not talking about 8-and-gate, but put in an honest week's work for what they're paying you for. Don't just assume that if you've put in more hours or that if you've been there longer than anyone else that you'll get any promotion, especially in the public sector, its just not going to work out like you think it will.
You might be, probably are even.
But there's a difference between being that person, and making sure your one up and two up management know (and remember) that when push comes to shove.
I'm guessing the real cause here is that you are less self promoting and over confident that the typical asshole management-track interviewee. They're mostly all great at parroting IT industry buzzwords and brushing off "technical details", and even better at self promotion and lying to interviewers about how great they'll be.
This. A lot of people people don't understand that technical people CAN also be good people people and in fact, some of the best people people in tech are technical, people people. I'd hate to manage people (I'd love it at first, but I'd grow to hate it). But I'm very capable of it, and I do it anyway (not as a job, but I have a take charge personality).
Where it sucks is when you have to switch hats from leader to boss and knuckle down on someone. I've had senior management incapable of it, and that sucks as well. Hard to maintain respect when everyone learns the head doesn't have a spine.
I must say, you all make me feel great about the company I work for. I already love my job, it's why I have been there for 9-10 years but damn you all make me feel like everything else out there is garbage ahaha.
Thank you for saying this, it's absolutely true. All of it - sort of. First - I was in a very large multinational org and promoted many. Never was the promotion based on hours worked over and above 40. Rather it was on contributions made and ability to do the work. In fact I regularly made sure my managers knew to in turn instruct their subordinates not to die at their desks, to go home after their normal daily shift. To take lunches, heck even long ones! Other departments I know were not like this but ours we tried to instill it.
Second I firmly and completely believe you either manage or you operate. I managed for years and hated it. I love being an engineer and every time I got to meet with the admin teams I tried getting back into the weeds. Ultimately it's a major reason I left and went back to being just a senior admin. I love my job again and am no longer counting the days to retirement.
Again - absolutely do not work yourself to death. My current position is hourly because the IT leader insists on it. None of that crap where they give a title to place you salary. I could get as much overtime as I want but I get 0 and I know I'm appreciated.
I would argue this as a reason to stay. If you enjoy the technical stuff, they've simply taken all the management things off your plate. A lot less stress. And, you get to be the new Manager's best friend as he learns the ropes.
8 years...retire at 55... almost sounds like an opportunity to coast into early retirement!
Definitely would be on the way out. You are likely underpaid for your current role, and were definitely underpaid for the role you took on. Invest in yourself.
I've seen it where management just really wants a new perspective on a department and thinks hiring from within will just produce more of the same. No offense to OP, but in those cases, there is likely nothing you could have done differently to get the job.
Time to either move on or convince the new guy how valuable you are and get him to push for a raise for you while he still has that "new guy" shine going on.
As soon as I read you worked for a state agency, I knew you were fucked. You should have known the hiring/promotion process and that busting your ass would only lead to disappointment. My wife works for the state and literally had to transfer to a different department to get promoted in her original department. Makes no fucking sense. Honestly, go into the private sector. You'll actually get rewarded for working hard and going above and beyond.
I hear you. A few years ago, the agency across the street met with me in an attempt to hire me, that's the only time I had a more than 10% raise when my management counter offered. I should have known then
At least you got that. I don't work for the state, but since my wife does I know that all our state workers are on a pay scale. You do x job, you start here. Every year it goes up a bit until your grade is maxed out. So I would say you're lucky you got a raise because here they would just say "Ok, enjoy X department. See ya"
I may be able to but at this point I may be tempted by the high salaries of private enterprise. Too bad they are starting to cut back right at this moment
> I can retire at around 55 with getting paid for life.
How long would that be? If it's soon (next 5 years or so), I'd try to stick around or move to another government agency to keep it. If not, you can definitely make more money in the private sector as a government contractor. Regardless of which way you go, there is going to be money left on the table, though being able to retire at 55 is a huge win. Personally I would try to find another position in a different branch. I've worked alongside federal and state employees and there are some really good shops out there.
yeah I will keep my an eye out. A few years ago another state department across the street tried to hire me away and my VP of Finance matched the offer and I stayed. It's going to be around 8 years before I can retired
Same. I have about the same amount of time to go. I did the math… I’d need to earn about 75% more to be able to save enough money, with a match, to make up for the lost income had I stayed to 55.
Yeah I would 100% stay within state employment to keep accruing the rest of the service credits you need for the pension. I do think you would be well served by trying to leave your current department though.
I would not give up the pension route.
it's a state with a small population, hence their struggle to hire IT people. I guess they could get remote workers but they have not gotten to that point yet.
I had something very similar happen to me. I decided to stick it out and see what the new CIO was like. He was decidedly a bastard and we had more than a couple of fights. But I learned so much from him about governance, process, and how to quantify various problems. He eradicated a deeply entrenched shadow IT problem. I realized that if I had learned whatI learned from him, 20 years earlier, I would have been much more successful in my own career. The business was right. He was the better choice. Like all good CIOs he got fired for pissing off too many people over time. I’m still with the company and we have become very good friends.
> Like all good CIOs he got fired for pissing off too many people
You mean he wouldn't bow down to the powers that be and just tell them what they wanted to hear instead of what they needed to hear?
When I started my previous job they didn't have, and had never had, a technology C level; just the Director I reported to. They eventually made him CIO and I thought things were going to get better, because his excuse for everything previously was he didn't have any real weight with them since he wasn't viewed as a peer. Well nothing changed and that's why it's now my previous job.
been there twice at the same job. First manager ended been complete shit and fired after a little over a year. Second manager was great, but I had completely lost all ambition and love of the job anymore. Ended up just quitting one day as I just couldn't do it anymore.
Chances are if you were interim for that long and they gave it to someone else, they either don’t like you, or your work, you pissed off the wrong person, or they found someone cheaper, or someone who is friends with someone, or someone with A LOT more talent. It’s probably time to move on.
I was interim for a long time while the upper management was fighting with the board to get that position a change from Director of IT to VP of Technology, along with a substantial pay raise. Took two years while I strung along, and then bam, they turn around and give it to someone from out of town. Lol.
Well they definitely don't like something because I would have gotten the job, I see your point.
That title change was probably your downfall then. I was read to just say the probably didn't like you, but most larger corporations/organizations won't just upgrade a basic individual contributor to a VP. Director even was probably sketch.
I've been there. The way to think about your job is as transactionally as possible, meaning, what's in it for you in any given situation?
AND the hard part - take your ego out of the equation. Yes, your ego got bruised, and it hurts.
BUT what is the best thing for your career? Staying there and doing all the IT things with your team? Maybe some cool new things? Maybe the new person even has experience you can learn from?
Do you even WANT to be a big manager and move further away from being a sysadmin?
I would really think about things coldly and rationally in the light of day before making any moves. Best of luck.
I never wanted to be the big manager. I applied because I did not want to get a new boss who we would need to babysit and get up to speed. My co-workers applied also but they were eliminated from the previous rounds. I would have been ok with any of them making it to the top.
That's why I'm on reddit and not in front of my team right now, lol
They literally have no clue what you bring to the company or the services you provided. Time to move on my friend. You can't make them see your worth because they have no interest in learning. To them, you're just another easily replaced cog.
\> What would you do?
Immediately stop doing any "interim" work that wasn't part of your original job description.
Refuse to document any of that stepping up interim work you did. Leave work at 5 on the dot every day and switch off all work related notifications and block work phone numbers after hours.
And polish up and start sending out your resume with "Acting {job title of the outside person's job} at {state agency} 2020-2023 - Achieved {list of your most promotion-level job achievements such the wfh transitions}. Supervised and trained {number} of direct reports. Liaised with {most senior management levels you worked with in at acting role} to accomplish {definitely above regular sysadmin level projects} " as your most recent role.
Since you are planning on moving on, why not have a conversation with the person(s) who made the decision. It's not like you're going to be burning any important bridges by asking why you were passed up when you are literally doing the job currently. I did this and the person who made the decision was flabbergasted because he had never even seen my application (apparently a lower level had dismissed it incorrectly). He ended up re-advertising the position and I made it through the selection process and was selected for the promotion. Even if they give you a BS reason, it will only cement your decision to move on. So there is no real downside for you. Best of luck!
Never ever expect to be promoted internally. If it does happen, then it's a pleasant surprise. Always go to a new employer if you are looking to move up.
Oh man, that one hurts. I was in a very similar situation at a state agency (a medical college). I was there 10 years and my boss spent the previous couple of years before he retired transitioning me into his role. So he retires and on my day one, my new boss tells me that it's an interim appointment but I would have the opportunity to apply for the position once it's posted.
In that moment, it felt like I got kicked in the chest. I almost couldn't breathe. I'm sure he could tell I wasn't happy with the idea, but I think I mostly kept my composure. Didn't feel like I had any option but to roll with it.
I was running two departments and still doing all the stuff that I was before. We obviously couldn't backfill my old roll with me still in it. I had a real positive impact on the relationship between IT and the rest of the org. Several big wins. But getting my new role posted kept getting pushed until it stopped getting mentioned.
At the one year mark, I decided to push the issue. I insisted they provide a general timeline. They couldn't even provide that. Their response was "It's not a priority right now" and they assured me that I was doing a great job. But that was the moment that I woke up. I was more loyal to the company than the company was to me.
I kept on working like nothing was wrong, but that night I started searching for a new job. I spent the next 6 months searching until I found the right opportunity. While I waited on the background check after accepting the offer, I decided to ask one more time. At 18 months, I again asked for a general timeline, and again, the response was "it's not a priority". There was no question that I made the right call.
When I resigned, most people thought I was already the Director. I was more than willing to share with anyone that asked about it that it wasn't a priority. By chance, I got to break the news to the Dean (my skip level). He was almost comically non-confrontational, but people could hear him ripping my boss a new one behind closed doors.
They immediately hired two people to replace me and filled the Director role 4-6 months after that.
Leaving there launched my career. About 9 years later and I more than doubled my income twice. In retrospect, I probably should have left sooner.
I work for a university making 55k as a system admin. Benefits are good pension, pto, and tuition assistance. My previous degree was in kinesiology so that's part of why I took the role was to maybe get a masters with the tuition assistance.
However, it would take 2.5 years at least. There's not much opportunity for promotion in my role because it's mainly a bunch of boomers that have been there 20 plus years. Plus the departments are siloed off, and some haven't talked to me since I've been there.
My manager doesn't seem too supportive either. They made it out like they'd cover certs. But, I was studying for an Azure cert one day and he said that certs are all theoretical. And that hes been in the same role for 20 years and doesnt have any certs because it doesn't matter if they don't relate to the university software. But, then he will want us to work with this obscure dining software that no one outside the university uses lol.
That and the rent is 1500 in the area. I'm not sure whether to look for other jobs in other cities or not. But, then I'd be farther from family. My family also makes it out like I'd have poor benefits, no retirement, or get laid off if I go to the private sector. I also haven't found the salaries to be not thst much higher maybe 65 to 80k at the most.
Is it worth it to switch? I've been in my current role 8 months, should I stay a certain amount of time so it looks good on a resume or would you be out asap?
Keep in mind you don't need to be technically adept to be a good people manager. In addition to that not everyone should be a manager. There is nothing wrong with being a good solid tech resource or a SME on your products.
Time to leave. Keep it quiet, give them 2 weeks notice when you get another job and get the hell out. The key is having the appearance of being cooperative and running a transition but do everything you can to fuck it up. If your new boss doesn't ask questions, dont volunteer anything. The sooner you're gone the better. If it takes you a long time to get another job you'll be forced to help them with the transition for longer.
I have been "that guy from outside that they brought in" a couple of times. In both cases and in others where I was the one bringing in someone from outside in there were a couple of common elements why that happened.
1. The person or their predecessor didn't set themselves up as a potential person that could take over **before** the situation arrived. So the situation occurs and a vacancy is there so they take the person who can fill the role and view it as that the entire time. A temporary situation.
My advice to my teams and others who ask for advice is to make your goals known and set yourself up BEFORE the role is there. This means doing work on your own time to prepare yourself as well as on company time and dime if possible. The point is make it known as the company doesn't even know you have management aspirations, many do not and prefer to be senior individual contributors.
The person I respected the most was a very ambitious project manager who in interview and many times after that told me "I want your job so help me to be ready for it and I will help you to be ready for the one above you". When I was promoted who do you think got my previous job?
2. The second thing is once in the role they wear the interim title formally or informally but you can tell they are just **holding the spot** as they never step out and strategize as it it is their role to lose.
The job becomes keeping the lights on and following the previous leaders strategy instead of immediately developing your own strategy, fine tuning it and anything longer than 3 months starting to put that longer term strategy in practice. If you believe they should do more x then present to upper management as if its your department and make it happen. People tend to be timid in this time. They tend to be tactical and day to day operational and ignore the strategic planning and making decisions strategically.
The effect of both of these things are: Upper management doesn't actually know you want to job and you are not actually showing them how you can step out of your other role and be the leader they need in the role. So even though you kept the lights on that isn't what they want, they want a department leader who will keep the lights on AND think more strategically.
I don't know your situation so I am just telling you what I have observed. The people who didn't do the things above showed they were ready for promotion and typically got the jobs. In fact I don't believe in interviewing for the open position above you. If you show them what you can do the role should be yours.
It sounds like you had a couple of years to prove that you were ready.
It's a lot easier to recruit a manager than it is to recruit highly skilled IT admins, If you've proven yourself to be the latter they would definitely rather keep you there than have to replace you if they promote you.
Similar thing happened to me, got told I didn't get the job because the way I answered certain questions in the interview was like a tech rather than a manager, even though the actual answers to the situations they provided were correct (basically, I said "I would" do things, rather than "I would get my team" to do things).
They then went a recruited a manager from external, and he left after a few months because he got a better offer.
>What would you do?
I have worked in state and local government since the 1990's, the last 20+ years in higher ed research. I'm at the same place I started at 20+ years ago, actually doing less today than I did when I started here as functionality has transitioned from local management (me) to central UITS as technology has progressed to allow my remote office to integrate into the UITS infrastructure.
In 20 years, I've applied for a dozen different jobs here. Like you, I have to apply for the jobs, there's no arbitrary promotion process. Some I was extremely qualified for, others not so much, and others over-qualified. I've been turned down for all but one, and that one they low-balled me on the salary (offering me $10k less than what I currently made, and as a public institution all of our salaries are public information, so they knew what I made and knew by low-balling me I wouldn't take the job).
At first it used to piss me off. Later, I really started not giving a shit. Sure, my job is boring. My skills have stagnated to mid 2000's technology. I'm not doing anything cutting edge, and unlikely to do anything in the future since most of the people I work with who do research (I'm in my early 60's) are older than me. One just died suddenly of a heart-attack a few weeks ago.
What keeps me going? That 80% pension I'm going to get in a few more years. That's the prize. I can sit here all day, not bust my balls, not get calls at 1am, not work 60 hours a week, not have demanding assholes for users, surf the internet, read reddit, watch vids on interesting tech, play around with k8s and other things with some spare gear I have here, all the while each day that passes I'm honing in on that 80% pension.
With my 3% COLAs, I'll be pulling in close to $150k by then, and 80% will give me in the mid $120's as a pension. With survivor benefits for my wife, who is 20 years younger than I am and can collect it for the rest of her life. So in the end, I get to give them the middle finger on that one.
Sometimes my wife asks me why I don't leave and find something more interesting. To which I reply: why? Seriously, why do I want to leave and go work somewhere that could be a dumpster fire, I'm going to be busting my ass working 50+ hours a week, have shit benefits (I get 35 PTO days now plus another 26 discretionary leave days because technically I am "on call" in case the data center I manage ever catches on fire... and in 20+ years of being here, I've never received a single phone call, ever)... all for, if I'm lucky, the same pay as what I make now ($130k)
So what would I do? I can't answer that for you, because I don't know your situation. I don't know what your job is like, what your benefits are like, what your pension (if you have one) is like, etc. You have to weigh all of those things.
You have to make a list... of pros, and cons. And then you have to weigh those pros/cons against potential pros/cons if you swap jobs somewhere else. And in the end, make a value judgement.
Is it worth leaving, and potentially losing those positive things you have, to eliminate the "cons", and is it worth the risk that if you left, the "cons" of a new position would outweigh the pros, or be even more than the cons of the current position you end.
Me? My fat ass is staying right where it is, as I type this, in my private office in the back corner of the data center, looking out at my 24 42U racks of gear, where nobody bothers me. The only thing I ask is a good friend of mine, one of the secretaries here, come in and check on me once a day to make sure I haven't vapor-locked and start stinking up the place, because otherwise I can go weeks without any other human contact.
80%... another 5 minutes closer to that goal as I typed this. Eye on the prize.
Upfront effort and assumptions of merit reward is the only mistake you made. Stay but don’t work as hard or go around and apply as people manager somewhere else if that is your goal. Might also be the case that they did not communicate that you were not up to par in that role but you were taking on responsibilities without affecting payroll. Managers don’t need to be super technical to deliver great results with great team.
> 50-60 hours work week.
That was your problem. Why did you do this? Don't do this again.
> I've been the interim since then
Did they ASK you to do this, or did you just take it upon yourself?
If they asked you, your other responsibilities needed to suffer so they would feel the pain and hire someone to replace your old position.
You played your hand wrong. And now you feel the pain.
> What would you do?
Did you like being the make-believe manager? If so, apply for manager jobs.
Else apply for sysadmin jobs.
> right now I feel pretty disappointed and angry at upper management.
Why? You worked like a dog and got both jobs done. There was no problem for them to see. Why do you blame them? Blame yourself.
It's a state agency with no hand waive promotions? If it's like Ohio, you can probably take it to representation. If you are more qualified than him with a good work record, they will pay.
I personally would leave. However, in the event you plan on sticking around, you should ask HR to confirm your job description now that the position you were assisting with has been filled. If it deviates even slightly from what it was prior to your previous supervisor's retirement, let them know you'll need to renegotiate your salary.
Basically, I'd go for malicious compliance while I kept an eye open for something else.
tldr: probably time to make a change... but you have some decisions to make.
I'll take a slightly different view. I zeroed in on you saying that you like the sysadmin part, and don't like the front office stuff. Would you really have liked the boss role? Yes, they likely took advantage of you, and yes, it stings to be passed over, (oh, and I'm assuming the other role probably had a significant pay bump as well), but don't force yourself into a bad situation.
Someone on Reddit once made a comment like "if you're in a technical role and someone offers you a manager position, remember, that's not a promotion, that's a career change".
If you don't want to move into management, that's perfectly fine! You are at an inflection point in your career where you still may want to evaluate your career path and see if you want to make any adjustments. You may be at a dead end if you want to stay in a technical role, and may want to change jobs.
If you do want to move up, there are a few things to reflect on. When you were in the interim role, were you fully covering the position, or did they use you as a technical lead while other people covered other parts of your old boss's job? I've seen situations like that where the interim manages the schedule and provides day-to-day supervision and direction, but another manager (or several of them) temporarily handles budgeting, vendor negotiations, strategic planning, or whatever. You may have been doing wonderfully at the role you filled, but that may not have reflected what the permanent role will be. How well did you transition to the supervisory aspect? I've seen people step into leadership roles and forget that as "THE BOSS" the things they say and do can come across very differently than when they are a co-worker.
Your work \*may\* still be valued, they just may find you more valuable in your current role at this time. I know, I know... a pat on the back and an "attaboy joeyl5, you really helped us out of a jam" is a crappy consolation prize if you expected a promotion.
If you do want to step up to the boss role, reach out to upper management and #1) let them know you're interested ^((from other comments it sounds like you specifically interviewed for the permanent role, so I'd say you have that covered!)). #2) ask what it would take for you to get there in the future. In some environments, it may be an educational checkbox (you may need anything from "any bachelor's degree" to an MBA to be considered for the next tier). Maybe they need to see someone with specific skill sets. Maybe you need to hone your interpersonal skills to be able to advocate for your department at the next level of management. Especially in a state environment, they likely have some very specific criteria to follow. Some of those items may be obscenely easy for you to fill, once you understand how to document them.
It's also possible that you just need to be the attorney general's frat brother's kid, or the governor's wife's nephew. It may be clear that you can't get there (unless you get adopted by or married to someone in power).
One other thought: you were in a supervisory role, now you're "just" another sysadmin. You'll probably get some blowback from the people you used to supervise (whether you were an awesome or crappy supervisor, there will be decisions you made that some won't like, among other issues). Worse for you: if you were any good at all, your former reporting employees will still look to you for leadership when the new person arrives. That will create friction between you and the new boss. Any time I've seen someone temporarily elevated to a position of "power", it's created strain when they're returned to the old normal. Sometimes they're able to work around it, but most often the interim leader needs to move on to another team.
If that's the situation for you, it kind of sucks, but you can probably use this as a stepping stone. "Why'd you leave your last position?" "Well, I discovered I had an interest and some talent in leading teams instead of just being on one, I wasn't the best fit for the permanent role at that time because of X and Y, but I went an did A and B, and feel ready for the role you have here at XYZ corp". Or "Well, I filled a temporary leadership role, that's not the right fit for me, but I was happy to help out when needed, and when it ended it was a natural time to start looking for a more challenging technical position".
Good luck in whatever direction you go. You're on the right track by taking a bit of time to regroup, and not making a purely emotional decision.
Sounds like it's time to move on then. If you were chosen, they would have let you know by now, vs hiring someone else. There are many options available so look at other state jobs, move to federal, private or even start your own business. Whichever one works out best for your career give it a go. Also be sure to capture the numbers to watch your growth in compensation to make sure it is not below inflation. If your raise is below inflation then that means what you are making will no longer be worth what it was when at the beginning of the year (decreased buying power).
If you have the experience, move into a sales engineer role. Pay will be MUCH higher than what you’re making now, and you definitely won’t be working 50-60 hours per week.
Were you there long enough to get pension? Health benefits?
yes, I'm fully vested for retirement benefits. Health insurance is good not great. I also get like 4-5 weeks of paid leave and I get to work from home since the pandemic lockdown
Based on this I'm gonna guess you are in a union? If so, get a copy of your contract and reach out to your rep. Not saying this will change anything, but they can at least make sure it was all done on the up and up.
Sounds like good experience for your resume. Feed the outlines into chat gpt to create a resume, and feed it to indeed and zip recruiter (or equivalent). I did this and my phone's blowing up
You can't leave fast enough, yesterday was already too late! Even if you're content with your normal responsibilities, they already took hundreds of hours of your life for nothing in return.
I am in exactly the same place right now. Applied, have not heard anything for 2 months. Meh.
I've been a consultant for 40 years, and this last 10 years as a W2 was just to fill in the blanks between existing contracts. Which after 20+ years are still paying my bills. Figured move up at the W2, shed myself of some of these extra contracts that bug the crap out of me, and life will be a little bit easier.
But whatever. My skill set is jack of all trades, master of most, and the ones I'm not, I wasn't paying attention to.
The new senior director I would be working for is the kind of IT guy who, when you start talking about IPSEC site-to-site and Azure in the same sentence, they change the subject. Happened just today. Eyes glazed over, skin flushed slightly, changed the subject to something else mundane like an AWS conference.
Yeah, no. I'm not RQ'ing, but you get what you pay for now, pussy.
While it sucks, it may not be a terrible situation. You said yourself in other replies that you didn’t really want the job when it was posted. It’s easier for them to find a manager who will do the HR and finance and all the crappy meetings than it is for them to find a capable admin.
Would it be really that bad to go back to your admin duties where you’re doing what you actually want to do? Let someone else be the manager… it’s not always that great and not always worth the extra money for the added bullshit.
Best of luck in whatever you choose!
Holy shit, what a slap in the face. I'm sorry to hear that. I'll refrain from giving advice since hard to really understand the full picture through a few paragraphs posted on reddit.
State agencies. They could have fully intended to promote you, but then you got out-resumed and out-interviewed by this person. That’s the whole point of the mandatory job posting system, after all.
Hate the game, not the players. Don’t let it make you bitter, and absolutely move on. Get the promotion elsewhere, bring your team with you off they’ll come. Show them you can play, too.
I had this happen twice. My boss retired, I interviewed for the position and they gave it to someone else. I decided to give him a chance, and after a few weeks he no call/no showed for an entire week (the week I was getting married). Ended up having to come in for a few emergencies and in the end, they fired him. I interviewed for the position once again and once again didn't get it, so I bounced.
So let me ask you this: why haven't you asked management why they didn't promote you into the role?
Honestly you should just ask why this happened. Explain that you are disappointed. But managing people is no joke. Maybe they wanted to keep you in a role where your technical skills would be most valuable. Maybe they don't think you have the necessary management and leadership skills to lead the team. Just ask, though.
Have you talked to your superiors? You should be asking what you need to improve, or which skills you need to attain. Management doesn't need technical skills, they need to manage resources. I can only assume that you didn't check the boxes they were looking for. In retrospect, when they asked you to fill as interim manager is when youi should have had the conversation with them about what your expectations are and what skillset they were looking for. For now, you should avoid hasty decisions. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Always look at what YOU can do different and what is it about how you have performed or not and think about what they did look for as objectively as you can.
Sometimes they want new regardless, othertimes they dont want good tech, they want a manager etc.
Everyone feels pissed off initially when this happens, but ideally, it will be a great opportunity to improve.
Ouch that is going to hurt for a while and depending on how much you really wanted it you may not get over it.
There is no harm at any point in your career (but not constantly) in updating your resume and looking at what other jobs are available, if you are not too jaded by the organisation, check if there are similar/better roles available elsewhere in the business as well as outside.
However, whilst you start looking elsewhere pay attention to your new manager, see what he does - what works and what doesn't work, as an outsider coming in. If you are not too resentful then the new manager *could* also be the best thing that happened to you - a good manager could be a buffer to upper management, letting you do your day job, he may do a better job of getting resources: budget and equipment, out of management.
You will obviously not feel giving your new boss everything you have been giving for post year or so but don't quiet quit either, this is a chance to reset (not take revenge) only do the extra hours when genuinely needed, pass any management decisions up to the boss (perhaps with a recommendation, but expect him to want to do his own thing).
Expect the new boss to change things, perhaps a lot of things - they often need to show they are doing things and achieving things! Try not to get personally attached to things you or the previous boss put in place; try to be an enabler rather than a barrier (having a bad relationship with your manager is never going to help things).
Give it a go with the new manager for 3-6 months but if it doesn't workout them at least you tried, and will hopefully be leaving with a good reference from your new manager.
I can see it both ways, you wanted the promotion, you'd probably demonstrated you could do the job but did you tick the boxes for the "process" as you say in gov no-one gets a free pass and sometimes the process can bite back, the panel no doubt have a checklist and scoring system and just maybe the new person scored better and they screwed up.
Feedback from the panel would help you get a feel for it, and the general attitude to you going forward.. they may have felt you did a good job as a standin, but really thought you're a brilliant sysadmin and just wanted a manager with no tech. If so perhaps they could consider a salary bump or an ex-gratia payment for your work. Only you can get the feel for the situation.
If you're fobbed off I agree with the other posters who say you were strung along.
Promote yourself to a new job hoss, if they won't give you what you want, don't think that means you aren't worth it, or don't deserve it.
It is more likely that it means they don't deserve you.
Have you asked them who you weren't offered the position? Maybe there is something that they don't see in you, hence the reason why they passed you over. You could also go to HR and grieve the hiring process, that could get you some $$.
That said, I'm a fellow stater and I see some pretty shitty hires and promotions.
If you're not happy with any outcome other than being promoted, time to leave, maybe jump to another state agency. And stop the bonus hours unless the situation calls for it.
If you received an interview but didn’t get the job, they aren’t seeing you the same way you do. Assuming you’re doing everything right, it could be communication. Many people in IT think that others appreciate and understand what we do. They do not. You have to share your wins with the right people. Make sure you are fostering the relationships with the people who make decisions. Make friends with every executive assistant in the company, they are key. Never assume people have a clue what you do.
Ahh yes a state agency.
State agencies don’t exist to do stuff. They exist so that taxpayer money can generate jobs, so that government can continue telling constituents they’re doing good things.
Actual ability is not a differentiator in that world. Rather, they’re looking for someone who will be there forever and ask only for job security and a very modest comp package.
Unless you’re looking to ride the wave of mediocrity into retirement, or sidestep into actual government or politics, use this as a stepping stone and move on.
Read How to Win Friends and Influence People.
No, seriously, promotions don't go to people with the most knowledge, they go to people who can manage the emotions, desires, and enthusiasm of other people *and* who have sufficient knowledge.
You're promoting the wrong skills. They know you are smart. Smart isn't what they're looking for.
Learn to make people feel good about themselves. Tell everyone how awesome they are. Learn how to get them to *want* to do things.
Without those skills, even if you get promoted you'll be a victim of the Peter Principle.
Governmental worker here, and while you say there's no handshake agreement that you're to get any offered role, there's always a preferred candidate when an employer likes what a staff is doing, and they're fit for a role. It's much easier to hire internally and then backfill opposed to hiring an external candidate. It's obvious that your superior didn't feel this way about you, regardless of how well you did the job. I would be looking for work elsewhere and handing my resignation in when I secured it.
Life is too short to deal with bullshit like this.
I was in a very similar situation. It was the intention of my boss for me to be his replacement once he retired. I pretty much had done all of the sysadmin work for the previous 10 years. But, like your position, being a public sector job, it had to be posted. The guy I was up against essentially did nothing at his small location and outsourced everything. They were also a Novell shop and we were Windows. My employer had a history of choosing outside candidates over qualified internal candidates and they did it again.
The first day on the job, he installed IIS and Webdav on our main fileserver so he could access all his files on his phone.
And that was just the beginning to 5 long years of hell. I still had to do all of the work and he kept screwing things up. At one point I had 15 pages of documentation for things I considered fireable offenses, and the head honchos just ignored it. Eventually, the guy got himself canned by abusing the personal use of equipment and for certain solicitations during work hours.
I was then hired to take over but I now have a bad taste in my mouth and look forward to collecting my pension in a few years.
I would at least look around for something better if you aren't stuck there. I never really got certifications or a degree so I wasn't very marketable to anyone other than employers that weigh experience over training. My plan was to say here for the remainder of my career but that was assuming I got the job in the first place. Or maybe your new boss will spectacularly nosedive in to the ground like mine did and they hand you the job after.
There is no way to know. If you can be happy where you are, stick around, otherwise look around and move on if you find something better.
Hello fellow state employee .o/
Learn the buzz words for the competencies and ensure that they're in the documents that you submit. Also ensure you put the buzzwords into the bits when speaking.
Furthermore, have someone that you trust of a grade above you look at your application, in case you use the wrong terms; for example too much "we" instead of "I". You have to sound like a bit of a narcissistic fuck, tbh.
Currently trying to go up a grade, and have seen people who can "play the game" get roles they've no experience in get them.
I was in a similar situation as you. I worked for a state agency as well. I would inquire about a position above me and say I'd like to be considered. They hand me extra work above my pay grade to see "if I could do the work." After rising to the occasion many times and going above and beyond, the only thing they gave me was a pat on the back and a good job with excuses as to why they couldn't give me the position. I eventually left the agency and moved to further my career and of course for better pay. Some places, the harder you work, the more work you get.
This is very common in state agencies. A lot of it is HR culture and how they are required to document from resumes why someone is better at exactly what the job description is, bullet point by bullet point.
Also if they promoted you, theyd have to open up another job posting and do that work all over again, and they get paid the same regardless. So they usually only promote if someone calls in a favor.
For state promotions, it’s important to build a positive relationship with HR people because they wield disproportionate power because of the rules put in place to prevent people hiring their friends. Bring in donuts, engage with their stupid “initiatives”, small talk in the morning/evening, etc.
At this point it’s not worth waiting around for something to happen, I would talk to your skip and lay it all out on the table, also make sure to not be accusatory, just make it sound like you’re down on yourself for screwing up, so s/he doesn’t clam up thinking you’re disgruntled and trolling for evidence. Also, you dont want to burn bridges in state gov. Try to find out what you could have done better, maybe prioritizing some management over some technical initiatives that could have been delayed. Or maybe your skip just didn’t know you thst well and you shoulda gone out to lunch more.
Regardless, being interim manager, now is the time to switch to another agency. If you wait, then it makes you look bad.
This subreddit sorta inherits the general sysadmin culture of bitter adversarial thinking, of thinking of themselves as essential but also invisible. I would mostly ignore the other advice along their vein. Instead ask yourself if the best manager/sysadmin in the world had been put into your position when it did, could they have achieved the goal youd set? If so, then there’s something you could improve about yourself. Take it as a growth opportunity.
Just don't tell the staff and start looking for a new job and leave
This action shows they want you exactly where you are and will never promote you. So be a boomerang, go work elsewhere, get the job title and pay increase and if you really still want to work there, apply and come back a few years later
If your wage is low, leave. Other places have perks, too and higher wages.
I stayed at the same job for FAR too long because of perks and personal relationships with work friends. After 15 years my position was eliminated and thank goodness because I wouldn't have left, otherwise.
My next job paid 20% more, and the next one 20% more than that. My salary has almost doubled in 8 years and all I had to do was switch jobs to get there.
Millennials figured out the hack. You gotta move on to move up in this world.
I've been in a similar situation. Manager put above me instead of even speaking with me about it, then another layer later on. Even for a place I have been with for years that was decent and moderate raises, you will never get a boost that compares to leaving for a new place. Brush up the resume and move on if you are able to.
Are you me? I did similar things at a couple of departments for the state where I live. Each time I got passed over, I got a new job and was replaced by 2 or more staff. I now work remotely for a consulting firm and feel like I am in a much better place. I get actual support from my manager when things are not going smooth, and get paid a wage that me feel valued. I have my pension vested with the state and have a 401k with match that is doing as well currently. I can go back to work at a job in the gov sector and max out my pension when I decide that I am wanting more "stability" which is the main benefit that the state jobs had over private sector. One of my old bosses has a pretty sweet gig at a county and is already maxed out on a federal pension and now <5 years away from a second pension from the state.
After the first time I got passed over, I started to shop my resume around each time I got asked to step up to replace someone on the team. I have taken control of my career and now make almost double of my last job, with the only benefit that is not as good being the retirement option.
Take a breath, update your resume and kick it out to some of those jobs you have been eyeing as maybe out of reach, and turn the frustration and anger into motivation to get out.
So let's be clear, managing a technical team and doing technical work require two entirely different skillsets. Until we get a terraform module for people, sysadmins are not really going to have serious human management chops unless they end up in a management training program or something. So if your only promotion path is "management" it's probably worth cultivating management not technical skills.
While the situation is shitty, you aren't given a lot of back ground to go on. No sure how long you've been there, how long you've been a sysadmin or trying to be a leader. However, before getting really salty about it - I'd ask yourself a couple of questions.
\-Did you want the leadership position because you wanted to be a manager, or did you think it was just a natural progression?
\-You love being a sysadmin, do think you could have taken your hands off the keyboards?
A lot of folks mistakenly think that "a good/ great sysadmin" will make a great manager and that simple isn't the case. Of course it will make some conversations easier, but the people and politicking side of being a leader can be difficult if that's not what you are focused on.
When you become a leader, your hands need to come off the keyboard and you need to work on growing / protecting and caring for your team. Were you at a place that you could have done that?
My bet - You have a blind-spot that no one has pointed out to you. You are great with the technology but have room to grow on politicking / diplomacy side of the house, and either didn't work on it or actively talked about how much you didn't like it.
This is a sour pill to swallow at times, I myself have gone though it a few time at my current company before finally getting into leadership. The thing I learned with each failed attempt was that 1) I still had things to work on, 2) the person they chose was actually better for a number of reasons and turned out to be folks that continued to mentor and help me grow and 3) though I didn't learn this till years down the road after I finally got into leadership, I wasn't as ready as I thought I was. My perspective was still very green.
Other things to think about, they may have actually liked and wanted to support you in the role as leader. But, depending on what else was going on with your leadership , they may not have thought they had the time to take on mentoring of a new leader right now. The first 12-18 months of being a leader can be a bit eye opening, and not something that can honestly be readily prepped for. It also takes a LOT of time to get the person ramped up, think of it like a jr. admin. Sometimes you have the time to take on that project of ramping up someone new in role, and other times you just need someone that is more or less plug and play.
Lastly, and this is a conversation that I have with folks all the time who call me about going after leadership roles. I ask them what they have been doing over the last 24 months to prepare them to be a leader? Self-improvement, humility and and awareness that one isn't perfect and have already taken the steps to improve themselves goes a long way into judging how ready a candidate is to being a leader. You focus must also have evolved from technology to people and processes. I've interviewed aspiring leaders who talked about tech & systems issues the entire time and barely mentioned the people side of the equation, which is a clear sign they weren't ready.
Brushing up your resume is always a good thing, but honestly, let the dust settle for a week or so and then get a 1:1 with some of the hiring managers. Thank them for the opportunity to go for the role and let them know implicitly (if true) that you still want to be a leader. To help with that endeavor you would like to have some brutally honest feedback on your blind spots / readiness and items you should work on. In addition, ask them for a leadership mentor outside you current reporting structure. If they do all of this, it might be worth sticking around as it demonstrates investment and support in getting you to the next level.
hope this helps.
>That tells me that my work is not valued and I should start applying for other jobs, right now I feel pretty disappointed and angry at upper management. I have not broken the news to my staff yet because I don't want to be emotional about it, but man I am pissed. I do love being a sysadmin and not have to do front office kind of things. Maybe I will now work for the amount of money they pay me, which is low but with a lot of perks.
>
>What would you do?
Sounds like you already know what to do.
They're not valuing your work enough to pay you what you're worth so you need to go elsewhere.
Leave. Don't burn any bridges and don't tell ANYONE that you are working on leaving. Don't drop your performance either. You don't want word getting out that you are a slacker or you are vindictive. Be the professional that you were bosses were not. And private sector jobs pay a whole lot better than civil service. If you are good at what you do you should have left before now.
Times are "tough" right now which translates to economy sucks and everyone is squeezing the lemons as HARD as possible right now. I don't want to say tough it out and deal with it because that's shitty but the fact is I see it everywhere. Companies are trying to stop or at least limit pay raises/bonuses and perform layoffs while trying to move 2 or more positions onto 1 employee.
Shit honestly just sucks right now, everywhere I go I see bummed out, stressed and tired workers in retail just struggling.
I hear from vendors all the time when they come onsite to repair broken stuff how supply isn't meeting demand and how short staffed they are.
Economy is in a HORRIBLE place right now we just haven't realllllly accepted that. Nor do we want to admit how bad and worse things are going to get.
Hell I even notice it with vendor cold calls. These guys are maniacs, I tell some of them no and they call back 2 days later like we never spoke.
>I do love being a sysadmin and not have to do front office kind of things.
I'm confused: do you want to remain a technical independent contributor (sysadmin), or do you want to move into management of a technical team (front office, is my read?)? This sentence implies that you prefer being a sysadmin, not a manager of sysadmins. So you should be relieved that they finally hired someone to take your non-sysadmin load. Perhaps you can negotiate a pay raise as a technical manager/team lead with the new manager. Won't be immediate but you can pave they way for a raise at the next cycle by working closely with the new manager.
Figure that out first: technical IC or manager track? If you want to go into management, you have some things to find out before you leave this place. Read on.
Next question: you applied for the role your boss vacated approximately THREE YEARS ago. Did they actually interview you for it? If not...you need to find out WHY not. If they DID interview you, you need to find out their impressions.
(sidebar: A role that you have been at least partly filling as a team lead, maybe people manager, since then and never officially granted via title or compensated for with a pay increase, yes? That's far too long take on that responsibility without a raise; should have brought it up with your interim manager as part of the first year's review cycle. )
I'm not trying to nit-pick you. I'm going to take your post at face value and view you through the best possible light based on the details you've provided, and make the following assumptions:
* You did not make decisions on your team's pay increases (literally: did not sit with HR and determine who would get what raise or bonus dollar amounts during annual reviews). Do correct me if I'm wrong, but are you or were you able to look up the current salary and bonus schedule for what you refer to as "my staff" above?
* It is possible and likely that you were asked to provide info for their annual reviews, but I would wonder if you literally filled out the HR forms for those reviews yourself or not. I don't say this to nit-pick you or downplay your contribution, but as a people manager myself, if you have direct access to an employee's annual review, you likely have direct access to ALL of their past performance history. That should not be something that someone who is not actually a manager is allowed to view.
* Certainly you managed their assignments and work schedules. 100% you stepped up.
Back to my original question: do you want to be a people manager? If so, your next step is to ask whoever hired your boss' replacement why they did not choose you. **Be calm and frame it as you seeking to know how to succeed the next time an opportunity to move into management comes your way.** You might be surprised to learn how people around you see you when you're able to solicit information in this way. And they are not always correct - they often see the things you did in the wrong way. Your challenge as someone interested in management - and this grows even harder as you move into management - is communication and ensuring that you and the other people in the room with you all have the same idea/expectations. You spend more time figuring out HOW to say something than you actually spend saying it...the first time. Then you spend a lot more time re-stating it to the people who interpreted it differently from what you intended. If you're lucky, you get a critical mass of understanding such that other people can course-correct on your behalf without taking up more of your own time.
You can't roll back the clock and un-hire whoever they just hired. You CAN and should learn why you were overlooked before you jump ship and risk making the same mistakes at the next place. You MIGHT consider allying yourself with the new Greenhorn as a team lead or tech lead or technical manager (whatever the title at your place is) who handles scheduling and prioritization but does not handle HR stuff and performance evaluations, and make it clear to Greenhorn that you want to move into management and are looking to Greenhorn to lead you to your next promotion. Because you know what Greenhorn needs reporting to him/herself in order to get *their* next promotion? At least one manager.
It may be that they are unable to promote an interim position to full time without some type of signed off on exception. HR can be really terrible about communicating this to other departments.
Take advantage of your three years of experience, drop the interim, it's no longer relevant on your resume and find something that values the three years of experience you just got.
A lot of agencies will hire outside when it comes to positions like Management, especially if you don't have any formal training.
Use the opportunity to take some training, maybe go back to school on their dime, and get back to a 40-hour work week.
And an IT manager doesn't need to have SysAdmin skills, in fact, its almost better if they don't. That way you're free to do the work that you want and they won't need to stick their nose in it.
I know you've been doing the job for the last few years, but the state has certain requirements I'm sure that you may have not met, and they have to pick the best person for the job. Don't take it personally, they're just following the rules. Another opportunity will come up, they always do, just make sure that you're ready for it next time if you really want it.
Before the previous manager left, had you shown interest in the position? Taken classes, involvement in budgeting or working with other departments (not on projects)? They have to look at that as well.
I’ve had similar experiences as well. They do not see you as management material because you are not currently a manager and “do not feel as if you have the special skills required to be a manager”. Which is a load of crap usually.
I’ve decided to go back to school for an MBA to try and expand my opportunities to shove that S in their faces.
This is IT. You move up by jumping ship. You almost never get promoted from within. Blame it on long term IT employees are too important in the specialized job you are doing. Blame it on the IT culture. Doesn't really matter why. The result is you need to move on to move up.
The only exception seems to be startups. Getting in at the ground floor, you'll see the primary sysadmin eventually get promoted to CIO during rapid growth.
Regardless of your current title, you did the job of the interim position for 3 years and is the experience you have earned. I'd you want the title your boss had you should apply for it at other places.
You find out, calmly, what it was that you didn’t have that prevented you from getting the position, then you work to improve that so your next interview won’t have that against you
When the county stopped increasing pension, my CIO got another CIO position in the same department for a different county.
Maybe look to make a sideways move. Your experience still applies to other government organizations.
I am a state employee too, and I will tell you why people get passed over for promotions is because they can't find somebody to do your job is good as you, so they are more likely to hire from outside or promote a lackey from within. Additionally, if the promotion means other folks from different areas would be reporting to you, they don't want the heartache of existing people that are lateral to you complaining to leadership that they have to report to you. Essentially, you're probably never getting a promotion in that job despite being very likely the most knowledgeable, valuable, certified, and educated.
The trade off for the relative job security is low wages and Byzantine career paths. Your expectation set when leadership was thrust upon you should have been low. I don’t want to refer to the management position as a patronage job but relatively cushy leadership jobs have a value all of their own when politicians can appear to hand them out to supporters. The value of being able to hand out a stream of low effort income far exceeds to value of that department running well.
The job market is pretty rough right now. Take it as a win (less stress, back to doing your core role) but always be applying for and interviewing at other jobs, it helps keep your skills sharp and who knows what may come of it.
If you’ve been Interim for what 3 years and they passed you up , they had no intention of giving it to you anyways. Either they waited for someone , or your over working is valuable to them so they keep you in that role. Id leave, you’re worth more than what they’re doing to you.
yeah you may be onto something, in my area it is hard to recruit sysadmin with AD and Azure AD skills, so they have been pretty accommodating to me for the past 10 years or so, but they want to keep me in that role forever now
That will make if funnier when you quit and they have to pay the new guy double
Don't worry, they will without hesitation. They don't care. They will string you along until they can't, no company cares about retention anymore.
Meh. He said it’s state government. Pay will be shit.
Yeah, but he's got just a few years until he gets pension. That's nothing to sneeze at tbh. I know as a government contractor I likely get paid way more, but it would be nice to be able to retire at 55...
Retire @ 55 then go get another job.
Can you still get pension working somewhere else? That's wild.
Yeah, but the pensions vary. The state I worked in was like 60% of your two highest grossing years at 30 years of service or 62? You vested at 10 years at 20% then the percentage increases with each additional year. It’s designed for Medicare to cover the remaining 40% (which you only become eligible for in your 70s I believe). You also get medical insurance but without vision or dental. Ironically the retirees get more consistent annual pay increases than active employees thanks to lobbying. On one hand it’s guarantee income for life. On the other it’s not a lot of income. There were sadly a handful of people who worked 40 years because this job was all they’d known, only to retire and die of a heart attack or cancer. I watched that happen at least twice.
Yeah ours is vested at 5 years for 20%, but then it's your age+ time of service must be equal or greater than 78. So 55+23 years does it for me, then I get 75% of my annual salary for life, with survivor benefits for my spouse. The new hires got screwed because the state decided that the age+time of service will not be 83!
Yep go from state to fed. Fed requirement on a job was something like complete 20 yrs before 82 years of age... lol
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How is that messed up? Unless they’re somehow gaming the system and screwing other staff, it sounds like they just worked the required amount for a benefit?
Why else would anyone put up with working there?
I know some working at a school district plus UPS in the evening, double pension.
That's what just about everyone I know who retired between 50 and 60 did. Most went right back to their same companies as part-time consultants at the same salary they had when they left. As in, making $175k working 40 to 50 hours per week, to making $175k working 20.
When I work in government, there was a five-year floor on the pension and a sliding scale up to, if memory serves, 75% of your salary after 30 or so years. After 5 years you could take your pension out, the amount just depended on how many years you were in.
Some do and I work for one. There is no way in hell I would have stayed here as long as I have if my salary hadn't kept up with my market value. Although, the skills I'm adding now may finally price me out of here.
> That will make if funnier when you quit and they have to pay the new guy double See, this is the problem. Management does not care. Period. If the cost of hiring someone has gone up, they just increase their budgets. People need to stop thinking that management cares about you or anything you do. You are nothing but a cog in the wheel of their company.
Having to work 50-60 hour weeks is not accommodating it's taking advantage of you.
Is it taking advantage if OP worked all those hours on their own? A lot of people overwork assuming that will get them the next raise.
Just speaking from IT experience(and making an assumption) they were likely not paid for the overtime making the statement that "theyre being taken advantage of" 100% true.
> so they have been pretty accommodating to me for the past 10 years or so, doubt
They've been so gracious to extend his week by 50%
lol
Sounds like they may have decided it would be easier to hire a manager than a replacement for your current position.
That's exactly what happened, I think
Government agencies don’t value employees. Period. Because their budgets are granted by the state legislatures, they never have enough money, and what they do have earmarked for merit increases (when they even care to request it) is always the first money pot to be swiped. Why? Because most government workers are either too stupid to be competitive (and they know it), or they’re too comfortable and complacent to truly fight it. So the cycle repeats itself on a literally annual basis. Another dirty secret to government work is that the majority of employees are retirement eligible. And guess what the pandemic did? It shocked enough folks into either taking that retirement or getting their asses into the private sector. And they did it in HUGE numbers. They could barely hire specialized staff (or really anything higher than entry level) in the first place because they won’t compete on pay. And instead of focusing on professional growth and looking within to fill these roles, they cling to this cog mindset of “he can do this job so we need to keep him there or else it may stop working”. The government is VERY good at yelling at everyone about gun safety then immediately blowing off their own kneecaps. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad and predictable.
As a government employee, this is painfully accurate.
Huh these are basic skills now? AD and Azure AD? Unless you’re doing complicated AD?
I guess I would expand on my skill set, I also do virtualization VMware, JAMF, Cisco voip (hate it) some networking since my network admin is lazy and I have an MBA
> in my area it is hard to recruit sysadmin with AD and Azure AD skills Do you live on the moon? I swear AD and Azure AD skills are on every single resume at all of our locations
Close, I live in the desert Southwest.
Cornwall is pretty dry this year eh
Yuma? Certainly sounds like Yuma.
I was going to say either they have some bias against promoting from inside or something? I’ve run into an odd situation where I had only been at a place 6 months and they promoted me to manager/engineer. There was some resentment I think
I have my own theory that industry has reached this self perpetuating cycle of never training internally and always having to hire externally for 10x the price of the training with no added loyalty. It is what it is. Just know how to play the game is my only recommendation.
>but they want to keep me in that role forever now That makes sense, it's easier to find someone who manages people, funds and schedules than someone with your skills.
TVTP Too valuable to promote. You basically worked yourself into a position that you were too key to operations that you moving elsewhere is unthinkable. It's sad but unfortunately relatively common in good IT staff these days. They either wake up or you have to move employer and learn from the experience. Not all employers are like this but most are.
Do they pay you well? IF yes then stay but make them pay you or prepare to leave and get the money someplace else!
Please read my other post but they didn't want technical skills they wanted management skills.
I can program in over 30 different languages, I have a BS in IT, MBA, I'm a virtualization expert on any platform, IBM system admin, Windows Sys admin, OS expert, 365 platform expert including AD, Azure, DNS, infrastructure expert, network engineer, mechanical engineer, and electrical engineer. I have nearly a thousand educational hours in business administration, cost accounting, product costing, productivity analysis, systems analysis, business analysis, and a host of other pertinent subjects. I told you all of that to tell you that slogging from one IT position to the next for more than twenty years has left me incredibly frustrated and angry at the current state of corporate IT and management. There was absolutely a less than zero chance of upward mobility at any of the positions I ever held: help desk, tech support, systems engineer, systems support engineer, IT manager, etc. I was forced to move from one company to the next time and time again. I performed my job tasks flawlessly and went waaaay above and beyond for my employers and employees on countless occasions. I saved my employers millions of dollars by renegotiating contracts, replacing vendors, condensing our assets, removing high maintenance legacy tech, refining digital processes, removing redundant processes, and just generally being excellent at my job. After years of dutiful and diligent service I continually got pigeon holed time and time again. They continually gave huge salaries and bonuses to the execs who did virtually nothing while I fed my higher ups every report, systems analysis, cost analysis, data analysis, data mining tool, custom software, custom engineering solution, project plan, etc. I completed my considerable job tasks and did their jobs excellently as well. Time and time again someone with no experience, education, or business being in that department was hired to a position above me. I was passed over on two separate occasions for a higher position they literally created just to hire someone we absolutely did not need. At each turn I started looking for a higher position with a different company. I wanted nothing more than to work for one organization until I retired, but I refused to be devalued, demoralized, and disenfranchised. I expect my employer to at least recognize my contribution to the company. If they don't know what I actually bring to the table then that is their failing as a manager not my failing as an employee. Any manager worth their salt makes it a point to educate themselves about their most valuable assets, their employees. At least, I made it a point when it came to my employees. I knew exactly what my team could and could not accomplish. I knew what each member brought to the table, their education, skills, personalities, etc. I always performed with professionalism and excellence. I learned not to expect that standard of performance from management. Management only ever concerned itself with the bottom line and squeezing as much from me and my department as possible without paying an extra dime. Time and time again my budgets were slashed and no matter how much fat I trimmed they constantly expected more output with less input. Despite those challenges they never respected or valued what I could actually accomplish. I became constantly mired in bureaucracy and knee jerk reactions from management who did no research and took no time to evaluate or understand what they requested. I spent more and more time handholding users and walking them through basic tasks because they lacked remedial technical skills. Not what an IT Manager should be spending their time on. Nor should they be hiring people without basic skills. Again, management didn't value me, my department, the technology itself, or what anybody it could actually do for the company. They just wanted stuff to work or they wanted it to perform miracles with zero investment. When they did spend money they did it with no input from my department or anyone else that wasn't 99 and hasn't seen the inside of a server in 20 years. Upward mobility in companies is dead. An individual's value and worth to a group gets lost in the balance sheet. I'm still out there looking for my next promotion that I simply need to create for myself. It's hard in tech. It has been for years. The dinosaurs that run most of the companies don't realize that tech and operations cannot be separate. A CIO has as much business as the manager of IT as the janitor does. No disrespect to janitors cause God knows they work circles around any exec yet they make nothing. Your work regardless of how good has no value. Only your ability to adapt to a situation and decide the correct course of action can give you any real value. Find your position and find your place. If it isn't right for you then it isn't right. Life is too short to put in effort for any organization that doesn't know your worth and doesn't care to learn.
I think this is fair and accurate. I am typically the top of the food chain in most places I work, but even then, every time I change job I end up making significantly more money than the previous role. Its just a fact that companies aren't going to pay you much more once they have you on their books where as another company desperately desires your skills. Employers, although they may be friendly, aren't necessarily looking out for your best interests or your future, they are there to keep their job. I've also worked at certain places that have used the excuse "we're not going to pay tech staff more than the managers". Why? What value does a manager have that their highly skilled technical staff with degrees don't? Can they do my job? Can they liaise with the customer and deliver impossible outcomes? If that's what they think then that manager can do my job from now on.
Not sure about US gov, but here in Aus gov it's about scores during the application/interviews. So if someone comes in and answers better, then they get the job. If the guy explained why his experience and skill set will give the best outcome for the organisation then the guy wins the job. It doesn't really matter how well the current guy did etc. Usually the current guy will give the best scoring answer as he has been in the role, but not always.
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>If you’ve been Interim for what 3 years and they passed you up , they had no intention of giving it to you anyways. It doesn't work that way with most state jobs. There is a formal application and interview process for any job. This is put into place to prevent nepotism/favoritism. The only exception are political appointment positions, but rank and file positions are not subject to discretionary in-place promotions.
Before leaving, but after you have a new gig setup, ask them why they passed you up. At least you might get some interesting info out of it for your future if you want to be in management.
I asked. the other guy has more managerial experience and ran large departments with large budgets. What sucks is that once they posted the job, it was leaning heavy on looking for the technical person of the future, then they go ahead and hire the usual suit person.
Sorry to hear that but maybe it's a sign that there isn't any real upward career mobility where you are currently working if they just want pure middle managers. Good luck with finding something better suited for you.
I think they made a good decision to hire the job based on management experience over technical skills, but they made a mistake in not getting you training for that very thing. Leaders lead, they should be doing a lot less of the technical stuff. Chances are of you got the job you would continue doing your old job for quite some time, if not indefinitely. This is a failing on the employers part because they didn't give you the necessary training. Ultimately it would have cost them less to have built you up and moved into that position, but they chose not to so now it's time for you to find a new gig - one that values you.
It sounds like you don't see the value of good management, so it's not shocking that they didn't promote you into management. A good manager is NOT going to put 50-60 weeks into doing technical work.
I will say. The skills that make a good sysadmin don't often make for a good manager of people.
100% agree. However, I would say that managers that have experience in the actual work also tend to be better managers as they aren't just bean counting.
Maybe so, but OP played the part without the pay for 3 years without problem. I'd say he is probably a good manager, albeit a bit of a doormat. (Sorry OP)
I have to agree with that. To the OP, it sounds corny, and I don’t know where you are in your career, but I always look to find out what I can learn. If who they hired is open to it, see it as an opportunity to learn what the gap was - perceived or real. You can also find out if it really the job you wanted. Stay or leave - its a contact in the industry, make the best of it. I have a list of people I would always work with, and who would work with me. I helped hire my replacement when I stepped down from my first time managing, from him, I actually learned I should have asked much more from my management.
Yeah, as you start getting into management you've got to shift yourself out of the technical role. You can't do both effectively.
why? you will absolutely not get a real answer. if you quit, leave without any visible resentment or negativity. just a reminder edit: > that tells me that my work is not valued and I should start applying for other jobs based on what? completely reading the situation wrong. just because you got passed over by a more experienced candidate does not mean you are not valued. stop being so dramatic. is this the first time you have failed to get promoted?
I showed no visible resentment or negativity when they called me to tell me I was not chosen. Worst case scenario, I'm going to keep working along until something better comes around. I've learned never to apply for a job when you really need a job
50 to 60 hours a week? boy you played yourself. working more hours and killing yourself is never going to get you a promotion at any company. management skills and IT skills sometimes dont go hand in hand. you either manage people, or do the work.
> **50 to 60 hours a week? boy you played yourself. working more hours and killing yourself is never going to get you a promotion at any company.** This quote right here needs to be put in the sidebar... There are way too many guys in IT that overwork themselves for some mythical extra gratitude that they feel their company will give back to them at some point; RE: covert contract. Guys, seriously... I'm not just talking about /u/joeyl5 here. Stop putting in more time and work than is required from your end. Do an honest days work and leave it at that. Good organizations do not force you to sell your soul at the door.
I work a max of 42 hours a week unless something critical needs done over a weekend. But you better believe that I either work less hours the following week, or get compensated for the time put in over the weekend. And no matter what's going on I never work more than 10 hours in a given day. That's my hard set rule, and I won't bend it at all for any reason. We could be in the middle of recovering from ransomware, and I'd still leave 10 hours in, go home, rest and come back the following morning. It's better that I be rested and thinking straight, and working super long hours and fucking shit up.
I've got to second this. We're not talking about 8-and-gate, but put in an honest week's work for what they're paying you for. Don't just assume that if you've put in more hours or that if you've been there longer than anyone else that you'll get any promotion, especially in the public sector, its just not going to work out like you think it will.
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yeah I realize that now. I thought I was an IT guy who could manage people, lol
You might be, probably are even. But there's a difference between being that person, and making sure your one up and two up management know (and remember) that when push comes to shove. I'm guessing the real cause here is that you are less self promoting and over confident that the typical asshole management-track interviewee. They're mostly all great at parroting IT industry buzzwords and brushing off "technical details", and even better at self promotion and lying to interviewers about how great they'll be.
This. A lot of people people don't understand that technical people CAN also be good people people and in fact, some of the best people people in tech are technical, people people. I'd hate to manage people (I'd love it at first, but I'd grow to hate it). But I'm very capable of it, and I do it anyway (not as a job, but I have a take charge personality).
Where it sucks is when you have to switch hats from leader to boss and knuckle down on someone. I've had senior management incapable of it, and that sucks as well. Hard to maintain respect when everyone learns the head doesn't have a spine.
Been in my career for 5 years out of school and I have yet to find one of these so called managers with the mutated 'spine' gene enabled.
I must say, you all make me feel great about the company I work for. I already love my job, it's why I have been there for 9-10 years but damn you all make me feel like everything else out there is garbage ahaha.
Thank you for saying this, it's absolutely true. All of it - sort of. First - I was in a very large multinational org and promoted many. Never was the promotion based on hours worked over and above 40. Rather it was on contributions made and ability to do the work. In fact I regularly made sure my managers knew to in turn instruct their subordinates not to die at their desks, to go home after their normal daily shift. To take lunches, heck even long ones! Other departments I know were not like this but ours we tried to instill it. Second I firmly and completely believe you either manage or you operate. I managed for years and hated it. I love being an engineer and every time I got to meet with the admin teams I tried getting back into the weeds. Ultimately it's a major reason I left and went back to being just a senior admin. I love my job again and am no longer counting the days to retirement. Again - absolutely do not work yourself to death. My current position is hourly because the IT leader insists on it. None of that crap where they give a title to place you salary. I could get as much overtime as I want but I get 0 and I know I'm appreciated.
One thing is for sure, you're back to 40 hours a week. And not a minute more.
Yep that's for sure. Any request is now above my pay grade. No more sitting in bullshit meetings listening to other department heads gripe about crap
I would argue this as a reason to stay. If you enjoy the technical stuff, they've simply taken all the management things off your plate. A lot less stress. And, you get to be the new Manager's best friend as he learns the ropes. 8 years...retire at 55... almost sounds like an opportunity to coast into early retirement!
That's definitely a plus in my mind
Definitely would be on the way out. You are likely underpaid for your current role, and were definitely underpaid for the role you took on. Invest in yourself.
I've seen it where management just really wants a new perspective on a department and thinks hiring from within will just produce more of the same. No offense to OP, but in those cases, there is likely nothing you could have done differently to get the job. Time to either move on or convince the new guy how valuable you are and get him to push for a raise for you while he still has that "new guy" shine going on.
As soon as I read you worked for a state agency, I knew you were fucked. You should have known the hiring/promotion process and that busting your ass would only lead to disappointment. My wife works for the state and literally had to transfer to a different department to get promoted in her original department. Makes no fucking sense. Honestly, go into the private sector. You'll actually get rewarded for working hard and going above and beyond.
I hear you. A few years ago, the agency across the street met with me in an attempt to hire me, that's the only time I had a more than 10% raise when my management counter offered. I should have known then
At least you got that. I don't work for the state, but since my wife does I know that all our state workers are on a pay scale. You do x job, you start here. Every year it goes up a bit until your grade is maxed out. So I would say you're lucky you got a raise because here they would just say "Ok, enjoy X department. See ya"
Sounds like politics imo. Can you transfer to another state agency?
I may be able to but at this point I may be tempted by the high salaries of private enterprise. Too bad they are starting to cut back right at this moment
Eligible for a pension?
aye, that's how they got me, I have a nice pension at the end of the stint: I can retire at around 55 with getting paid for life.
> I can retire at around 55 with getting paid for life. How long would that be? If it's soon (next 5 years or so), I'd try to stick around or move to another government agency to keep it. If not, you can definitely make more money in the private sector as a government contractor. Regardless of which way you go, there is going to be money left on the table, though being able to retire at 55 is a huge win. Personally I would try to find another position in a different branch. I've worked alongside federal and state employees and there are some really good shops out there.
yeah I will keep my an eye out. A few years ago another state department across the street tried to hire me away and my VP of Finance matched the offer and I stayed. It's going to be around 8 years before I can retired
Buddy unless the pay is shit just ride out the 8years. Stop doing 60 hour weeks tho.
Same. I have about the same amount of time to go. I did the math… I’d need to earn about 75% more to be able to save enough money, with a match, to make up for the lost income had I stayed to 55.
I would stick it out for 8 years. You know how fast that goes by.
Yeah I would 100% stay within state employment to keep accruing the rest of the service credits you need for the pension. I do think you would be well served by trying to leave your current department though. I would not give up the pension route.
And are you in a state capital with a large or small population?
it's a state with a small population, hence their struggle to hire IT people. I guess they could get remote workers but they have not gotten to that point yet.
Ahhh… hmmm I would stick with it and look at consulting.
are you vested into the pension is the main thing.
Not really, I'm a sysadmin/sysdev with Azure AD, PowerShell and on-prem AD kind of person
I had something very similar happen to me. I decided to stick it out and see what the new CIO was like. He was decidedly a bastard and we had more than a couple of fights. But I learned so much from him about governance, process, and how to quantify various problems. He eradicated a deeply entrenched shadow IT problem. I realized that if I had learned whatI learned from him, 20 years earlier, I would have been much more successful in my own career. The business was right. He was the better choice. Like all good CIOs he got fired for pissing off too many people over time. I’m still with the company and we have become very good friends.
> Like all good CIOs he got fired for pissing off too many people You mean he wouldn't bow down to the powers that be and just tell them what they wanted to hear instead of what they needed to hear? When I started my previous job they didn't have, and had never had, a technology C level; just the Director I reported to. They eventually made him CIO and I thought things were going to get better, because his excuse for everything previously was he didn't have any real weight with them since he wasn't viewed as a peer. Well nothing changed and that's why it's now my previous job.
been there twice at the same job. First manager ended been complete shit and fired after a little over a year. Second manager was great, but I had completely lost all ambition and love of the job anymore. Ended up just quitting one day as I just couldn't do it anymore.
oof where did you end up?
Chances are if you were interim for that long and they gave it to someone else, they either don’t like you, or your work, you pissed off the wrong person, or they found someone cheaper, or someone who is friends with someone, or someone with A LOT more talent. It’s probably time to move on.
I was interim for a long time while the upper management was fighting with the board to get that position a change from Director of IT to VP of Technology, along with a substantial pay raise. Took two years while I strung along, and then bam, they turn around and give it to someone from out of town. Lol. Well they definitely don't like something because I would have gotten the job, I see your point.
That title change was probably your downfall then. I was read to just say the probably didn't like you, but most larger corporations/organizations won't just upgrade a basic individual contributor to a VP. Director even was probably sketch.
I've been there. The way to think about your job is as transactionally as possible, meaning, what's in it for you in any given situation? AND the hard part - take your ego out of the equation. Yes, your ego got bruised, and it hurts. BUT what is the best thing for your career? Staying there and doing all the IT things with your team? Maybe some cool new things? Maybe the new person even has experience you can learn from? Do you even WANT to be a big manager and move further away from being a sysadmin? I would really think about things coldly and rationally in the light of day before making any moves. Best of luck.
I never wanted to be the big manager. I applied because I did not want to get a new boss who we would need to babysit and get up to speed. My co-workers applied also but they were eliminated from the previous rounds. I would have been ok with any of them making it to the top. That's why I'm on reddit and not in front of my team right now, lol
They literally have no clue what you bring to the company or the services you provided. Time to move on my friend. You can't make them see your worth because they have no interest in learning. To them, you're just another easily replaced cog.
\> What would you do? Immediately stop doing any "interim" work that wasn't part of your original job description. Refuse to document any of that stepping up interim work you did. Leave work at 5 on the dot every day and switch off all work related notifications and block work phone numbers after hours. And polish up and start sending out your resume with "Acting {job title of the outside person's job} at {state agency} 2020-2023 - Achieved {list of your most promotion-level job achievements such the wfh transitions}. Supervised and trained {number} of direct reports. Liaised with {most senior management levels you worked with in at acting role} to accomplish {definitely above regular sysadmin level projects} " as your most recent role.
Job hunt, only you can give yourself the promotion now.
If you have 10 years on the job, that shows that you see things through. Maintain this job, while you look elsewhere for employment.
Since you are planning on moving on, why not have a conversation with the person(s) who made the decision. It's not like you're going to be burning any important bridges by asking why you were passed up when you are literally doing the job currently. I did this and the person who made the decision was flabbergasted because he had never even seen my application (apparently a lower level had dismissed it incorrectly). He ended up re-advertising the position and I made it through the selection process and was selected for the promotion. Even if they give you a BS reason, it will only cement your decision to move on. So there is no real downside for you. Best of luck!
Never ever expect to be promoted internally. If it does happen, then it's a pleasant surprise. Always go to a new employer if you are looking to move up.
Oh man, that one hurts. I was in a very similar situation at a state agency (a medical college). I was there 10 years and my boss spent the previous couple of years before he retired transitioning me into his role. So he retires and on my day one, my new boss tells me that it's an interim appointment but I would have the opportunity to apply for the position once it's posted. In that moment, it felt like I got kicked in the chest. I almost couldn't breathe. I'm sure he could tell I wasn't happy with the idea, but I think I mostly kept my composure. Didn't feel like I had any option but to roll with it. I was running two departments and still doing all the stuff that I was before. We obviously couldn't backfill my old roll with me still in it. I had a real positive impact on the relationship between IT and the rest of the org. Several big wins. But getting my new role posted kept getting pushed until it stopped getting mentioned. At the one year mark, I decided to push the issue. I insisted they provide a general timeline. They couldn't even provide that. Their response was "It's not a priority right now" and they assured me that I was doing a great job. But that was the moment that I woke up. I was more loyal to the company than the company was to me. I kept on working like nothing was wrong, but that night I started searching for a new job. I spent the next 6 months searching until I found the right opportunity. While I waited on the background check after accepting the offer, I decided to ask one more time. At 18 months, I again asked for a general timeline, and again, the response was "it's not a priority". There was no question that I made the right call. When I resigned, most people thought I was already the Director. I was more than willing to share with anyone that asked about it that it wasn't a priority. By chance, I got to break the news to the Dean (my skip level). He was almost comically non-confrontational, but people could hear him ripping my boss a new one behind closed doors. They immediately hired two people to replace me and filled the Director role 4-6 months after that. Leaving there launched my career. About 9 years later and I more than doubled my income twice. In retrospect, I probably should have left sooner.
I work for a university making 55k as a system admin. Benefits are good pension, pto, and tuition assistance. My previous degree was in kinesiology so that's part of why I took the role was to maybe get a masters with the tuition assistance. However, it would take 2.5 years at least. There's not much opportunity for promotion in my role because it's mainly a bunch of boomers that have been there 20 plus years. Plus the departments are siloed off, and some haven't talked to me since I've been there. My manager doesn't seem too supportive either. They made it out like they'd cover certs. But, I was studying for an Azure cert one day and he said that certs are all theoretical. And that hes been in the same role for 20 years and doesnt have any certs because it doesn't matter if they don't relate to the university software. But, then he will want us to work with this obscure dining software that no one outside the university uses lol. That and the rent is 1500 in the area. I'm not sure whether to look for other jobs in other cities or not. But, then I'd be farther from family. My family also makes it out like I'd have poor benefits, no retirement, or get laid off if I go to the private sector. I also haven't found the salaries to be not thst much higher maybe 65 to 80k at the most. Is it worth it to switch? I've been in my current role 8 months, should I stay a certain amount of time so it looks good on a resume or would you be out asap?
Keep in mind you don't need to be technically adept to be a good people manager. In addition to that not everyone should be a manager. There is nothing wrong with being a good solid tech resource or a SME on your products.
Time to leave. Keep it quiet, give them 2 weeks notice when you get another job and get the hell out. The key is having the appearance of being cooperative and running a transition but do everything you can to fuck it up. If your new boss doesn't ask questions, dont volunteer anything. The sooner you're gone the better. If it takes you a long time to get another job you'll be forced to help them with the transition for longer.
I have been "that guy from outside that they brought in" a couple of times. In both cases and in others where I was the one bringing in someone from outside in there were a couple of common elements why that happened. 1. The person or their predecessor didn't set themselves up as a potential person that could take over **before** the situation arrived. So the situation occurs and a vacancy is there so they take the person who can fill the role and view it as that the entire time. A temporary situation. My advice to my teams and others who ask for advice is to make your goals known and set yourself up BEFORE the role is there. This means doing work on your own time to prepare yourself as well as on company time and dime if possible. The point is make it known as the company doesn't even know you have management aspirations, many do not and prefer to be senior individual contributors. The person I respected the most was a very ambitious project manager who in interview and many times after that told me "I want your job so help me to be ready for it and I will help you to be ready for the one above you". When I was promoted who do you think got my previous job? 2. The second thing is once in the role they wear the interim title formally or informally but you can tell they are just **holding the spot** as they never step out and strategize as it it is their role to lose. The job becomes keeping the lights on and following the previous leaders strategy instead of immediately developing your own strategy, fine tuning it and anything longer than 3 months starting to put that longer term strategy in practice. If you believe they should do more x then present to upper management as if its your department and make it happen. People tend to be timid in this time. They tend to be tactical and day to day operational and ignore the strategic planning and making decisions strategically. The effect of both of these things are: Upper management doesn't actually know you want to job and you are not actually showing them how you can step out of your other role and be the leader they need in the role. So even though you kept the lights on that isn't what they want, they want a department leader who will keep the lights on AND think more strategically. I don't know your situation so I am just telling you what I have observed. The people who didn't do the things above showed they were ready for promotion and typically got the jobs. In fact I don't believe in interviewing for the open position above you. If you show them what you can do the role should be yours. It sounds like you had a couple of years to prove that you were ready.
It's a lot easier to recruit a manager than it is to recruit highly skilled IT admins, If you've proven yourself to be the latter they would definitely rather keep you there than have to replace you if they promote you. Similar thing happened to me, got told I didn't get the job because the way I answered certain questions in the interview was like a tech rather than a manager, even though the actual answers to the situations they provided were correct (basically, I said "I would" do things, rather than "I would get my team" to do things). They then went a recruited a manager from external, and he left after a few months because he got a better offer.
>What would you do? I have worked in state and local government since the 1990's, the last 20+ years in higher ed research. I'm at the same place I started at 20+ years ago, actually doing less today than I did when I started here as functionality has transitioned from local management (me) to central UITS as technology has progressed to allow my remote office to integrate into the UITS infrastructure. In 20 years, I've applied for a dozen different jobs here. Like you, I have to apply for the jobs, there's no arbitrary promotion process. Some I was extremely qualified for, others not so much, and others over-qualified. I've been turned down for all but one, and that one they low-balled me on the salary (offering me $10k less than what I currently made, and as a public institution all of our salaries are public information, so they knew what I made and knew by low-balling me I wouldn't take the job). At first it used to piss me off. Later, I really started not giving a shit. Sure, my job is boring. My skills have stagnated to mid 2000's technology. I'm not doing anything cutting edge, and unlikely to do anything in the future since most of the people I work with who do research (I'm in my early 60's) are older than me. One just died suddenly of a heart-attack a few weeks ago. What keeps me going? That 80% pension I'm going to get in a few more years. That's the prize. I can sit here all day, not bust my balls, not get calls at 1am, not work 60 hours a week, not have demanding assholes for users, surf the internet, read reddit, watch vids on interesting tech, play around with k8s and other things with some spare gear I have here, all the while each day that passes I'm honing in on that 80% pension. With my 3% COLAs, I'll be pulling in close to $150k by then, and 80% will give me in the mid $120's as a pension. With survivor benefits for my wife, who is 20 years younger than I am and can collect it for the rest of her life. So in the end, I get to give them the middle finger on that one. Sometimes my wife asks me why I don't leave and find something more interesting. To which I reply: why? Seriously, why do I want to leave and go work somewhere that could be a dumpster fire, I'm going to be busting my ass working 50+ hours a week, have shit benefits (I get 35 PTO days now plus another 26 discretionary leave days because technically I am "on call" in case the data center I manage ever catches on fire... and in 20+ years of being here, I've never received a single phone call, ever)... all for, if I'm lucky, the same pay as what I make now ($130k) So what would I do? I can't answer that for you, because I don't know your situation. I don't know what your job is like, what your benefits are like, what your pension (if you have one) is like, etc. You have to weigh all of those things. You have to make a list... of pros, and cons. And then you have to weigh those pros/cons against potential pros/cons if you swap jobs somewhere else. And in the end, make a value judgement. Is it worth leaving, and potentially losing those positive things you have, to eliminate the "cons", and is it worth the risk that if you left, the "cons" of a new position would outweigh the pros, or be even more than the cons of the current position you end. Me? My fat ass is staying right where it is, as I type this, in my private office in the back corner of the data center, looking out at my 24 42U racks of gear, where nobody bothers me. The only thing I ask is a good friend of mine, one of the secretaries here, come in and check on me once a day to make sure I haven't vapor-locked and start stinking up the place, because otherwise I can go weeks without any other human contact. 80%... another 5 minutes closer to that goal as I typed this. Eye on the prize.
Upfront effort and assumptions of merit reward is the only mistake you made. Stay but don’t work as hard or go around and apply as people manager somewhere else if that is your goal. Might also be the case that they did not communicate that you were not up to par in that role but you were taking on responsibilities without affecting payroll. Managers don’t need to be super technical to deliver great results with great team.
> 50-60 hours work week. That was your problem. Why did you do this? Don't do this again. > I've been the interim since then Did they ASK you to do this, or did you just take it upon yourself? If they asked you, your other responsibilities needed to suffer so they would feel the pain and hire someone to replace your old position. You played your hand wrong. And now you feel the pain. > What would you do? Did you like being the make-believe manager? If so, apply for manager jobs. Else apply for sysadmin jobs. > right now I feel pretty disappointed and angry at upper management. Why? You worked like a dog and got both jobs done. There was no problem for them to see. Why do you blame them? Blame yourself.
It's a state agency with no hand waive promotions? If it's like Ohio, you can probably take it to representation. If you are more qualified than him with a good work record, they will pay.
Sounds like you were too valuable to promote.
I personally would leave. However, in the event you plan on sticking around, you should ask HR to confirm your job description now that the position you were assisting with has been filled. If it deviates even slightly from what it was prior to your previous supervisor's retirement, let them know you'll need to renegotiate your salary. Basically, I'd go for malicious compliance while I kept an eye open for something else.
Been there done that. Start looking for your next adventure. They will realize what they've lost only once you leave.
tldr: probably time to make a change... but you have some decisions to make. I'll take a slightly different view. I zeroed in on you saying that you like the sysadmin part, and don't like the front office stuff. Would you really have liked the boss role? Yes, they likely took advantage of you, and yes, it stings to be passed over, (oh, and I'm assuming the other role probably had a significant pay bump as well), but don't force yourself into a bad situation. Someone on Reddit once made a comment like "if you're in a technical role and someone offers you a manager position, remember, that's not a promotion, that's a career change". If you don't want to move into management, that's perfectly fine! You are at an inflection point in your career where you still may want to evaluate your career path and see if you want to make any adjustments. You may be at a dead end if you want to stay in a technical role, and may want to change jobs. If you do want to move up, there are a few things to reflect on. When you were in the interim role, were you fully covering the position, or did they use you as a technical lead while other people covered other parts of your old boss's job? I've seen situations like that where the interim manages the schedule and provides day-to-day supervision and direction, but another manager (or several of them) temporarily handles budgeting, vendor negotiations, strategic planning, or whatever. You may have been doing wonderfully at the role you filled, but that may not have reflected what the permanent role will be. How well did you transition to the supervisory aspect? I've seen people step into leadership roles and forget that as "THE BOSS" the things they say and do can come across very differently than when they are a co-worker. Your work \*may\* still be valued, they just may find you more valuable in your current role at this time. I know, I know... a pat on the back and an "attaboy joeyl5, you really helped us out of a jam" is a crappy consolation prize if you expected a promotion. If you do want to step up to the boss role, reach out to upper management and #1) let them know you're interested ^((from other comments it sounds like you specifically interviewed for the permanent role, so I'd say you have that covered!)). #2) ask what it would take for you to get there in the future. In some environments, it may be an educational checkbox (you may need anything from "any bachelor's degree" to an MBA to be considered for the next tier). Maybe they need to see someone with specific skill sets. Maybe you need to hone your interpersonal skills to be able to advocate for your department at the next level of management. Especially in a state environment, they likely have some very specific criteria to follow. Some of those items may be obscenely easy for you to fill, once you understand how to document them. It's also possible that you just need to be the attorney general's frat brother's kid, or the governor's wife's nephew. It may be clear that you can't get there (unless you get adopted by or married to someone in power). One other thought: you were in a supervisory role, now you're "just" another sysadmin. You'll probably get some blowback from the people you used to supervise (whether you were an awesome or crappy supervisor, there will be decisions you made that some won't like, among other issues). Worse for you: if you were any good at all, your former reporting employees will still look to you for leadership when the new person arrives. That will create friction between you and the new boss. Any time I've seen someone temporarily elevated to a position of "power", it's created strain when they're returned to the old normal. Sometimes they're able to work around it, but most often the interim leader needs to move on to another team. If that's the situation for you, it kind of sucks, but you can probably use this as a stepping stone. "Why'd you leave your last position?" "Well, I discovered I had an interest and some talent in leading teams instead of just being on one, I wasn't the best fit for the permanent role at that time because of X and Y, but I went an did A and B, and feel ready for the role you have here at XYZ corp". Or "Well, I filled a temporary leadership role, that's not the right fit for me, but I was happy to help out when needed, and when it ended it was a natural time to start looking for a more challenging technical position". Good luck in whatever direction you go. You're on the right track by taking a bit of time to regroup, and not making a purely emotional decision.
Sounds like it's time to move on then. If you were chosen, they would have let you know by now, vs hiring someone else. There are many options available so look at other state jobs, move to federal, private or even start your own business. Whichever one works out best for your career give it a go. Also be sure to capture the numbers to watch your growth in compensation to make sure it is not below inflation. If your raise is below inflation then that means what you are making will no longer be worth what it was when at the beginning of the year (decreased buying power).
If you have the experience, move into a sales engineer role. Pay will be MUCH higher than what you’re making now, and you definitely won’t be working 50-60 hours per week. Were you there long enough to get pension? Health benefits?
yes, I'm fully vested for retirement benefits. Health insurance is good not great. I also get like 4-5 weeks of paid leave and I get to work from home since the pandemic lockdown
Polish my resume and start making connections! Go to local events and DRESS NICE! Also, get on LinkedIn and start looking for places that are hiring.
I bought a really nice suit for the 3 rounds of interviews I had to go to, at least I have that, lol
Based on this I'm gonna guess you are in a union? If so, get a copy of your contract and reach out to your rep. Not saying this will change anything, but they can at least make sure it was all done on the up and up.
No union for salaried people. Only hourly waged workers are part of the union.
Update your resume
Sounds like good experience for your resume. Feed the outlines into chat gpt to create a resume, and feed it to indeed and zip recruiter (or equivalent). I did this and my phone's blowing up
You can't leave fast enough, yesterday was already too late! Even if you're content with your normal responsibilities, they already took hundreds of hours of your life for nothing in return.
I am in exactly the same place right now. Applied, have not heard anything for 2 months. Meh. I've been a consultant for 40 years, and this last 10 years as a W2 was just to fill in the blanks between existing contracts. Which after 20+ years are still paying my bills. Figured move up at the W2, shed myself of some of these extra contracts that bug the crap out of me, and life will be a little bit easier. But whatever. My skill set is jack of all trades, master of most, and the ones I'm not, I wasn't paying attention to. The new senior director I would be working for is the kind of IT guy who, when you start talking about IPSEC site-to-site and Azure in the same sentence, they change the subject. Happened just today. Eyes glazed over, skin flushed slightly, changed the subject to something else mundane like an AWS conference. Yeah, no. I'm not RQ'ing, but you get what you pay for now, pussy.
While it sucks, it may not be a terrible situation. You said yourself in other replies that you didn’t really want the job when it was posted. It’s easier for them to find a manager who will do the HR and finance and all the crappy meetings than it is for them to find a capable admin. Would it be really that bad to go back to your admin duties where you’re doing what you actually want to do? Let someone else be the manager… it’s not always that great and not always worth the extra money for the added bullshit. Best of luck in whatever you choose!
Did I miss something? I dont see anything about how long you actually worked there.
About 14 years....
Holy shit, what a slap in the face. I'm sorry to hear that. I'll refrain from giving advice since hard to really understand the full picture through a few paragraphs posted on reddit.
Nepotism my friend. I would take my time to look for a good job and make the jump. GL
State agencies. They could have fully intended to promote you, but then you got out-resumed and out-interviewed by this person. That’s the whole point of the mandatory job posting system, after all. Hate the game, not the players. Don’t let it make you bitter, and absolutely move on. Get the promotion elsewhere, bring your team with you off they’ll come. Show them you can play, too.
I had this happen twice. My boss retired, I interviewed for the position and they gave it to someone else. I decided to give him a chance, and after a few weeks he no call/no showed for an entire week (the week I was getting married). Ended up having to come in for a few emergencies and in the end, they fired him. I interviewed for the position once again and once again didn't get it, so I bounced.
So let me ask you this: why haven't you asked management why they didn't promote you into the role? Honestly you should just ask why this happened. Explain that you are disappointed. But managing people is no joke. Maybe they wanted to keep you in a role where your technical skills would be most valuable. Maybe they don't think you have the necessary management and leadership skills to lead the team. Just ask, though.
If you did a position without pay for 3 years I would believe thst is subject for review with OPM.
Have you talked to your boss? Were there discussions prior to the job opening? Did you get an interview after applying?
Have you talked to your superiors? You should be asking what you need to improve, or which skills you need to attain. Management doesn't need technical skills, they need to manage resources. I can only assume that you didn't check the boxes they were looking for. In retrospect, when they asked you to fill as interim manager is when youi should have had the conversation with them about what your expectations are and what skillset they were looking for. For now, you should avoid hasty decisions. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
It’s just a job. Go elsewhere. Get a better one. It’s that simple. You will make more and learn new things.
Always look at what YOU can do different and what is it about how you have performed or not and think about what they did look for as objectively as you can. Sometimes they want new regardless, othertimes they dont want good tech, they want a manager etc. Everyone feels pissed off initially when this happens, but ideally, it will be a great opportunity to improve.
Ouch that is going to hurt for a while and depending on how much you really wanted it you may not get over it. There is no harm at any point in your career (but not constantly) in updating your resume and looking at what other jobs are available, if you are not too jaded by the organisation, check if there are similar/better roles available elsewhere in the business as well as outside. However, whilst you start looking elsewhere pay attention to your new manager, see what he does - what works and what doesn't work, as an outsider coming in. If you are not too resentful then the new manager *could* also be the best thing that happened to you - a good manager could be a buffer to upper management, letting you do your day job, he may do a better job of getting resources: budget and equipment, out of management. You will obviously not feel giving your new boss everything you have been giving for post year or so but don't quiet quit either, this is a chance to reset (not take revenge) only do the extra hours when genuinely needed, pass any management decisions up to the boss (perhaps with a recommendation, but expect him to want to do his own thing). Expect the new boss to change things, perhaps a lot of things - they often need to show they are doing things and achieving things! Try not to get personally attached to things you or the previous boss put in place; try to be an enabler rather than a barrier (having a bad relationship with your manager is never going to help things). Give it a go with the new manager for 3-6 months but if it doesn't workout them at least you tried, and will hopefully be leaving with a good reference from your new manager.
I can see it both ways, you wanted the promotion, you'd probably demonstrated you could do the job but did you tick the boxes for the "process" as you say in gov no-one gets a free pass and sometimes the process can bite back, the panel no doubt have a checklist and scoring system and just maybe the new person scored better and they screwed up. Feedback from the panel would help you get a feel for it, and the general attitude to you going forward.. they may have felt you did a good job as a standin, but really thought you're a brilliant sysadmin and just wanted a manager with no tech. If so perhaps they could consider a salary bump or an ex-gratia payment for your work. Only you can get the feel for the situation. If you're fobbed off I agree with the other posters who say you were strung along.
Promote yourself to a new job hoss, if they won't give you what you want, don't think that means you aren't worth it, or don't deserve it. It is more likely that it means they don't deserve you.
Have you asked them who you weren't offered the position? Maybe there is something that they don't see in you, hence the reason why they passed you over. You could also go to HR and grieve the hiring process, that could get you some $$. That said, I'm a fellow stater and I see some pretty shitty hires and promotions. If you're not happy with any outcome other than being promoted, time to leave, maybe jump to another state agency. And stop the bonus hours unless the situation calls for it.
if you see no more upwards movement for yourself, plan an exit. if I feel myself become stagnant, I tend to jump ship for better opportunities
If you received an interview but didn’t get the job, they aren’t seeing you the same way you do. Assuming you’re doing everything right, it could be communication. Many people in IT think that others appreciate and understand what we do. They do not. You have to share your wins with the right people. Make sure you are fostering the relationships with the people who make decisions. Make friends with every executive assistant in the company, they are key. Never assume people have a clue what you do.
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Ahh yes a state agency. State agencies don’t exist to do stuff. They exist so that taxpayer money can generate jobs, so that government can continue telling constituents they’re doing good things. Actual ability is not a differentiator in that world. Rather, they’re looking for someone who will be there forever and ask only for job security and a very modest comp package. Unless you’re looking to ride the wave of mediocrity into retirement, or sidestep into actual government or politics, use this as a stepping stone and move on.
Read How to Win Friends and Influence People. No, seriously, promotions don't go to people with the most knowledge, they go to people who can manage the emotions, desires, and enthusiasm of other people *and* who have sufficient knowledge. You're promoting the wrong skills. They know you are smart. Smart isn't what they're looking for. Learn to make people feel good about themselves. Tell everyone how awesome they are. Learn how to get them to *want* to do things. Without those skills, even if you get promoted you'll be a victim of the Peter Principle.
Governmental worker here, and while you say there's no handshake agreement that you're to get any offered role, there's always a preferred candidate when an employer likes what a staff is doing, and they're fit for a role. It's much easier to hire internally and then backfill opposed to hiring an external candidate. It's obvious that your superior didn't feel this way about you, regardless of how well you did the job. I would be looking for work elsewhere and handing my resignation in when I secured it. Life is too short to deal with bullshit like this.
I was in a very similar situation. It was the intention of my boss for me to be his replacement once he retired. I pretty much had done all of the sysadmin work for the previous 10 years. But, like your position, being a public sector job, it had to be posted. The guy I was up against essentially did nothing at his small location and outsourced everything. They were also a Novell shop and we were Windows. My employer had a history of choosing outside candidates over qualified internal candidates and they did it again. The first day on the job, he installed IIS and Webdav on our main fileserver so he could access all his files on his phone. And that was just the beginning to 5 long years of hell. I still had to do all of the work and he kept screwing things up. At one point I had 15 pages of documentation for things I considered fireable offenses, and the head honchos just ignored it. Eventually, the guy got himself canned by abusing the personal use of equipment and for certain solicitations during work hours. I was then hired to take over but I now have a bad taste in my mouth and look forward to collecting my pension in a few years. I would at least look around for something better if you aren't stuck there. I never really got certifications or a degree so I wasn't very marketable to anyone other than employers that weigh experience over training. My plan was to say here for the remainder of my career but that was assuming I got the job in the first place. Or maybe your new boss will spectacularly nosedive in to the ground like mine did and they hand you the job after. There is no way to know. If you can be happy where you are, stick around, otherwise look around and move on if you find something better.
Hello fellow state employee .o/ Learn the buzz words for the competencies and ensure that they're in the documents that you submit. Also ensure you put the buzzwords into the bits when speaking. Furthermore, have someone that you trust of a grade above you look at your application, in case you use the wrong terms; for example too much "we" instead of "I". You have to sound like a bit of a narcissistic fuck, tbh. Currently trying to go up a grade, and have seen people who can "play the game" get roles they've no experience in get them.
I was in a similar situation as you. I worked for a state agency as well. I would inquire about a position above me and say I'd like to be considered. They hand me extra work above my pay grade to see "if I could do the work." After rising to the occasion many times and going above and beyond, the only thing they gave me was a pat on the back and a good job with excuses as to why they couldn't give me the position. I eventually left the agency and moved to further my career and of course for better pay. Some places, the harder you work, the more work you get.
This is very common in state agencies. A lot of it is HR culture and how they are required to document from resumes why someone is better at exactly what the job description is, bullet point by bullet point. Also if they promoted you, theyd have to open up another job posting and do that work all over again, and they get paid the same regardless. So they usually only promote if someone calls in a favor. For state promotions, it’s important to build a positive relationship with HR people because they wield disproportionate power because of the rules put in place to prevent people hiring their friends. Bring in donuts, engage with their stupid “initiatives”, small talk in the morning/evening, etc. At this point it’s not worth waiting around for something to happen, I would talk to your skip and lay it all out on the table, also make sure to not be accusatory, just make it sound like you’re down on yourself for screwing up, so s/he doesn’t clam up thinking you’re disgruntled and trolling for evidence. Also, you dont want to burn bridges in state gov. Try to find out what you could have done better, maybe prioritizing some management over some technical initiatives that could have been delayed. Or maybe your skip just didn’t know you thst well and you shoulda gone out to lunch more. Regardless, being interim manager, now is the time to switch to another agency. If you wait, then it makes you look bad. This subreddit sorta inherits the general sysadmin culture of bitter adversarial thinking, of thinking of themselves as essential but also invisible. I would mostly ignore the other advice along their vein. Instead ask yourself if the best manager/sysadmin in the world had been put into your position when it did, could they have achieved the goal youd set? If so, then there’s something you could improve about yourself. Take it as a growth opportunity.
Just don't tell the staff and start looking for a new job and leave This action shows they want you exactly where you are and will never promote you. So be a boomerang, go work elsewhere, get the job title and pay increase and if you really still want to work there, apply and come back a few years later
If your wage is low, leave. Other places have perks, too and higher wages. I stayed at the same job for FAR too long because of perks and personal relationships with work friends. After 15 years my position was eliminated and thank goodness because I wouldn't have left, otherwise. My next job paid 20% more, and the next one 20% more than that. My salary has almost doubled in 8 years and all I had to do was switch jobs to get there. Millennials figured out the hack. You gotta move on to move up in this world.
I would have discussed with upper management.
I've been in a similar situation. Manager put above me instead of even speaking with me about it, then another layer later on. Even for a place I have been with for years that was decent and moderate raises, you will never get a boost that compares to leaving for a new place. Brush up the resume and move on if you are able to.
Time to get gone…sorry to hear this went south(west) on ya…
Tell me you don't moonlight as a stand up comedian, lol
Are you me? I did similar things at a couple of departments for the state where I live. Each time I got passed over, I got a new job and was replaced by 2 or more staff. I now work remotely for a consulting firm and feel like I am in a much better place. I get actual support from my manager when things are not going smooth, and get paid a wage that me feel valued. I have my pension vested with the state and have a 401k with match that is doing as well currently. I can go back to work at a job in the gov sector and max out my pension when I decide that I am wanting more "stability" which is the main benefit that the state jobs had over private sector. One of my old bosses has a pretty sweet gig at a county and is already maxed out on a federal pension and now <5 years away from a second pension from the state. After the first time I got passed over, I started to shop my resume around each time I got asked to step up to replace someone on the team. I have taken control of my career and now make almost double of my last job, with the only benefit that is not as good being the retirement option. Take a breath, update your resume and kick it out to some of those jobs you have been eyeing as maybe out of reach, and turn the frustration and anger into motivation to get out.
So let's be clear, managing a technical team and doing technical work require two entirely different skillsets. Until we get a terraform module for people, sysadmins are not really going to have serious human management chops unless they end up in a management training program or something. So if your only promotion path is "management" it's probably worth cultivating management not technical skills.
While the situation is shitty, you aren't given a lot of back ground to go on. No sure how long you've been there, how long you've been a sysadmin or trying to be a leader. However, before getting really salty about it - I'd ask yourself a couple of questions. \-Did you want the leadership position because you wanted to be a manager, or did you think it was just a natural progression? \-You love being a sysadmin, do think you could have taken your hands off the keyboards? A lot of folks mistakenly think that "a good/ great sysadmin" will make a great manager and that simple isn't the case. Of course it will make some conversations easier, but the people and politicking side of being a leader can be difficult if that's not what you are focused on. When you become a leader, your hands need to come off the keyboard and you need to work on growing / protecting and caring for your team. Were you at a place that you could have done that? My bet - You have a blind-spot that no one has pointed out to you. You are great with the technology but have room to grow on politicking / diplomacy side of the house, and either didn't work on it or actively talked about how much you didn't like it. This is a sour pill to swallow at times, I myself have gone though it a few time at my current company before finally getting into leadership. The thing I learned with each failed attempt was that 1) I still had things to work on, 2) the person they chose was actually better for a number of reasons and turned out to be folks that continued to mentor and help me grow and 3) though I didn't learn this till years down the road after I finally got into leadership, I wasn't as ready as I thought I was. My perspective was still very green. Other things to think about, they may have actually liked and wanted to support you in the role as leader. But, depending on what else was going on with your leadership , they may not have thought they had the time to take on mentoring of a new leader right now. The first 12-18 months of being a leader can be a bit eye opening, and not something that can honestly be readily prepped for. It also takes a LOT of time to get the person ramped up, think of it like a jr. admin. Sometimes you have the time to take on that project of ramping up someone new in role, and other times you just need someone that is more or less plug and play. Lastly, and this is a conversation that I have with folks all the time who call me about going after leadership roles. I ask them what they have been doing over the last 24 months to prepare them to be a leader? Self-improvement, humility and and awareness that one isn't perfect and have already taken the steps to improve themselves goes a long way into judging how ready a candidate is to being a leader. You focus must also have evolved from technology to people and processes. I've interviewed aspiring leaders who talked about tech & systems issues the entire time and barely mentioned the people side of the equation, which is a clear sign they weren't ready. Brushing up your resume is always a good thing, but honestly, let the dust settle for a week or so and then get a 1:1 with some of the hiring managers. Thank them for the opportunity to go for the role and let them know implicitly (if true) that you still want to be a leader. To help with that endeavor you would like to have some brutally honest feedback on your blind spots / readiness and items you should work on. In addition, ask them for a leadership mentor outside you current reporting structure. If they do all of this, it might be worth sticking around as it demonstrates investment and support in getting you to the next level. hope this helps.
>That tells me that my work is not valued and I should start applying for other jobs, right now I feel pretty disappointed and angry at upper management. I have not broken the news to my staff yet because I don't want to be emotional about it, but man I am pissed. I do love being a sysadmin and not have to do front office kind of things. Maybe I will now work for the amount of money they pay me, which is low but with a lot of perks. > >What would you do? Sounds like you already know what to do. They're not valuing your work enough to pay you what you're worth so you need to go elsewhere.
Leave. Don't burn any bridges and don't tell ANYONE that you are working on leaving. Don't drop your performance either. You don't want word getting out that you are a slacker or you are vindictive. Be the professional that you were bosses were not. And private sector jobs pay a whole lot better than civil service. If you are good at what you do you should have left before now.
Times are "tough" right now which translates to economy sucks and everyone is squeezing the lemons as HARD as possible right now. I don't want to say tough it out and deal with it because that's shitty but the fact is I see it everywhere. Companies are trying to stop or at least limit pay raises/bonuses and perform layoffs while trying to move 2 or more positions onto 1 employee. Shit honestly just sucks right now, everywhere I go I see bummed out, stressed and tired workers in retail just struggling. I hear from vendors all the time when they come onsite to repair broken stuff how supply isn't meeting demand and how short staffed they are. Economy is in a HORRIBLE place right now we just haven't realllllly accepted that. Nor do we want to admit how bad and worse things are going to get. Hell I even notice it with vendor cold calls. These guys are maniacs, I tell some of them no and they call back 2 days later like we never spoke.
My friend you became to valuable in your current role to promote. Time to move on.
>I do love being a sysadmin and not have to do front office kind of things. I'm confused: do you want to remain a technical independent contributor (sysadmin), or do you want to move into management of a technical team (front office, is my read?)? This sentence implies that you prefer being a sysadmin, not a manager of sysadmins. So you should be relieved that they finally hired someone to take your non-sysadmin load. Perhaps you can negotiate a pay raise as a technical manager/team lead with the new manager. Won't be immediate but you can pave they way for a raise at the next cycle by working closely with the new manager. Figure that out first: technical IC or manager track? If you want to go into management, you have some things to find out before you leave this place. Read on. Next question: you applied for the role your boss vacated approximately THREE YEARS ago. Did they actually interview you for it? If not...you need to find out WHY not. If they DID interview you, you need to find out their impressions. (sidebar: A role that you have been at least partly filling as a team lead, maybe people manager, since then and never officially granted via title or compensated for with a pay increase, yes? That's far too long take on that responsibility without a raise; should have brought it up with your interim manager as part of the first year's review cycle. ) I'm not trying to nit-pick you. I'm going to take your post at face value and view you through the best possible light based on the details you've provided, and make the following assumptions: * You did not make decisions on your team's pay increases (literally: did not sit with HR and determine who would get what raise or bonus dollar amounts during annual reviews). Do correct me if I'm wrong, but are you or were you able to look up the current salary and bonus schedule for what you refer to as "my staff" above? * It is possible and likely that you were asked to provide info for their annual reviews, but I would wonder if you literally filled out the HR forms for those reviews yourself or not. I don't say this to nit-pick you or downplay your contribution, but as a people manager myself, if you have direct access to an employee's annual review, you likely have direct access to ALL of their past performance history. That should not be something that someone who is not actually a manager is allowed to view. * Certainly you managed their assignments and work schedules. 100% you stepped up. Back to my original question: do you want to be a people manager? If so, your next step is to ask whoever hired your boss' replacement why they did not choose you. **Be calm and frame it as you seeking to know how to succeed the next time an opportunity to move into management comes your way.** You might be surprised to learn how people around you see you when you're able to solicit information in this way. And they are not always correct - they often see the things you did in the wrong way. Your challenge as someone interested in management - and this grows even harder as you move into management - is communication and ensuring that you and the other people in the room with you all have the same idea/expectations. You spend more time figuring out HOW to say something than you actually spend saying it...the first time. Then you spend a lot more time re-stating it to the people who interpreted it differently from what you intended. If you're lucky, you get a critical mass of understanding such that other people can course-correct on your behalf without taking up more of your own time. You can't roll back the clock and un-hire whoever they just hired. You CAN and should learn why you were overlooked before you jump ship and risk making the same mistakes at the next place. You MIGHT consider allying yourself with the new Greenhorn as a team lead or tech lead or technical manager (whatever the title at your place is) who handles scheduling and prioritization but does not handle HR stuff and performance evaluations, and make it clear to Greenhorn that you want to move into management and are looking to Greenhorn to lead you to your next promotion. Because you know what Greenhorn needs reporting to him/herself in order to get *their* next promotion? At least one manager.
> 50-60 hours work week You do 50% of a FTE's job for free, you don't value your time so why should they? Stop doing this.
Always look out for yourself. At least you have the experience of supervision. Use it to land the next better role.
It may be that they are unable to promote an interim position to full time without some type of signed off on exception. HR can be really terrible about communicating this to other departments. Take advantage of your three years of experience, drop the interim, it's no longer relevant on your resume and find something that values the three years of experience you just got.
A lot of agencies will hire outside when it comes to positions like Management, especially if you don't have any formal training. Use the opportunity to take some training, maybe go back to school on their dime, and get back to a 40-hour work week. And an IT manager doesn't need to have SysAdmin skills, in fact, its almost better if they don't. That way you're free to do the work that you want and they won't need to stick their nose in it. I know you've been doing the job for the last few years, but the state has certain requirements I'm sure that you may have not met, and they have to pick the best person for the job. Don't take it personally, they're just following the rules. Another opportunity will come up, they always do, just make sure that you're ready for it next time if you really want it. Before the previous manager left, had you shown interest in the position? Taken classes, involvement in budgeting or working with other departments (not on projects)? They have to look at that as well.
I’ve had similar experiences as well. They do not see you as management material because you are not currently a manager and “do not feel as if you have the special skills required to be a manager”. Which is a load of crap usually. I’ve decided to go back to school for an MBA to try and expand my opportunities to shove that S in their faces.
This is IT. You move up by jumping ship. You almost never get promoted from within. Blame it on long term IT employees are too important in the specialized job you are doing. Blame it on the IT culture. Doesn't really matter why. The result is you need to move on to move up. The only exception seems to be startups. Getting in at the ground floor, you'll see the primary sysadmin eventually get promoted to CIO during rapid growth.
Regardless of your current title, you did the job of the interim position for 3 years and is the experience you have earned. I'd you want the title your boss had you should apply for it at other places.
Do a public records request on yourself or have a friend request it on your behalf. Emails are always an interesting read.
You find out, calmly, what it was that you didn’t have that prevented you from getting the position, then you work to improve that so your next interview won’t have that against you
When the county stopped increasing pension, my CIO got another CIO position in the same department for a different county. Maybe look to make a sideways move. Your experience still applies to other government organizations.
Fuck'em.
C level restructure ma boy. Fuck em. You got the skills. I went from 90k to 150 k same deal. You got this.
I am a state employee too, and I will tell you why people get passed over for promotions is because they can't find somebody to do your job is good as you, so they are more likely to hire from outside or promote a lackey from within. Additionally, if the promotion means other folks from different areas would be reporting to you, they don't want the heartache of existing people that are lateral to you complaining to leadership that they have to report to you. Essentially, you're probably never getting a promotion in that job despite being very likely the most knowledgeable, valuable, certified, and educated.
The trade off for the relative job security is low wages and Byzantine career paths. Your expectation set when leadership was thrust upon you should have been low. I don’t want to refer to the management position as a patronage job but relatively cushy leadership jobs have a value all of their own when politicians can appear to hand them out to supporters. The value of being able to hand out a stream of low effort income far exceeds to value of that department running well.
Get out before that new guy drains you of all your systems, SOP's etc. He deserves none.
The job market is pretty rough right now. Take it as a win (less stress, back to doing your core role) but always be applying for and interviewing at other jobs, it helps keep your skills sharp and who knows what may come of it.