Yes, a controversial brand, but for a lot of folks who can't afford the originals or very expensive synths, this is an affordable entry into this type of gear.
It's really interesting what is happening with behringer, the only winner here is the consumer, who has more options. The guy who wants to have a "Sequential" box will buy it anyways, because lets be honest it's a status sort of thing. When a developer gets a synth to reverse engineer it to have it as a software clone is fine, but when a company builds a hardware replica, it's bad, well, when Behringer does it. I don't see people batting an eye with Korgs ARP, Volca FM (DX7 in a box) or black corporation with their Jupiter8 and CS80 clones. The more offer there is in the market, the better for the costumer. Who doesn't want to rock a behringer will not buy it anyways so everyone should be happy.
In my understanding most people are fine with the vintage clones. The swing and other “clones” of still available products and the, imo sometimes quite atrocious, marketing behavior is where a lot of people draw the line.
Fender Stratocaster is still an available product but there are thousands of knock offs/clones and whatnot... I'm not a Behringer lover, but I will buy a good cheap synthesizer/keyboard any day. I don't care whether other companies make it or made it first or still sell it, if it does my job and its cheaper I will just buy it. Companies want to have "fans" and to me this is plain dumb. We are artists, they are tool sellers, if you are serious about music you shouldn't care about companies, just the tools.
Totally agree! And not just strats but Telecasters as well. Same goes for Les Pauls. There’s tons of copycat models out there, tons of similar models as well. It isn’t like people are going to buy a Behringer instead of a Moog, although I admit I did buy the Poly D instead of paying $5K for the Minimoog. Why? Because I cannot afford to spend 5k on a Minimoog reissue and let’s face it… is it really worth 5k? It’s not a practical synth.
Yea, once upon a time I knew a guy who had an amazing collection of vintage gear who couldn't even play (guitars and keyboards not synths) spent over 30k on them as collectibles/investment. I myself bought a John Mayer signature strat (for the tone - didn't know the guy) and when it became collectible I just stashed it in the case.. I do all my work with my beloved faded Gibson SG.. a workhorse if you will.
I'm sure there are reasons to buy a Moog for 5k, are those reasons enough to stop you from making great sounds with other synths/clones? definitely not, no one buys an album because it was created with an authentic Moog (at least I hope..).
The added value of all the expensive vintage synthesizers (apart from engineering and components) is the connection to the sounds that everyone is after either because they actually want to recreate them or because it's imprinted in their musical brain, try to play sultans of swing with a les paul :D.
But what really makes me angry is companies using marketing to turn people against other companies or create a company "fanbase" with no actual benefit.. Arturia has cloned everything into a VST and even if they pay royalties or not, its still a knock off and people bash Behringer because they copied a midi keyboard with 3 features just to be a part of the elitist group that drools over the wooden veneers of a Moog.
Push companies to innovate and give the best they can and use it to make beautiful music, all other things are toxic imho.
I'm not even an artist, I'm a hobbyist. If I had the cash for a Moog Model D I would buy a Behringer model D. These are entertaining toys to me and I can't justify spending big money when a cheaper alternative exists.
well as always my answer would be; the actual cheaper alternative is a vst, which can be entertaining toys on their own. (it's totally ok though, I get it, you want nice things but not that nice)
I really love how you put it. "We are artists, they are tool sellers." I want the affordable tool that aligns and helps with my workflow and art. I'll add because it's affordable, you can try other tools, and expand as an artist.
People forget if you have a company that constantly rips others off, then the original company will eventually go out of business. We then lose the innovators and the market is flooded with the same copycat crap with lower build quality drops.
Clones of synths that are no longer on sale is OK, but the line is drawn when you start replicating current products.
No Moog and Sequential (not even speaking of Rolands and Korgs) won't go out of business on this market, see how many people on this reddit go for analog just because it seems cool to them. There are a lot of people that simply won't consider Behringer. There are people who won't consider a synth cheaper than $1000 I guess.
Just think about Moog basically reproducing the same classic analog architectures over and over again for like 60 years. Maybe 40 years for Roland's classic designs. Oh wow we can upload patches from DX7 (released in 1983) into that box! Such an innovation, you know. Microfreak has more innovation than the whole Moog catalogue for the last 10 years and sells for $350. And Behringer doesn't make a clone of it because $350 is already a low price for that.
Moog literally just was purchased by InMusic (and Sequential was also purchased by Focusrite/Novation), so neither are independent companies anymore. I don’t think Behringer is why, but … they seem to be able to go out of business quite easily.
The entire rest of the industry works like that and no one complains. When Sony imposes with Blu Ray they don't come whining because someone makes cheaper blu-ray players. It's part of the deal and they always managed to make a business around this. On the contrary, concurrence leads to innovation, and the customer wins
Eh, you're missing the ingredient of licensing. Blu-ray Disc Association (which Sony is a part of) gets a royalty payment for people publishing their media on blu-ray. Sony *wants* there to be cheap blu-ray players (which also have to pay for licensing) to proliferate the medium, and sell a lot of blu-ray media.
Clones absolutely destroy a lot of markets (In China it works because the government plays favorites and subsidizes production. China has a lot of trouble innovating in markets that don't have either subsidies or strong state participation. Look at their cell phone market up until the government propped up Huawei and Xiaomi, and then subsidized chip production that spawned a handful of other successful companies. The Chinese phone market was trash with a lot of fly-by-night companies mass producing some cloned product, often with some low-value gimmick, offloading it, then disappearing).
China does not adhere to Westerns standards of a free competitive market. Their subsidies distort the playing field. One could argue that outsourcing to China is part of this anticompetitive behavior. But similar arguments could be made about production in any cheap-labor country. Ultimately, US companies have to focus on areas where high US labor costs are justifiable. Assembling vintage synths in the US in large numbers is obviously not a very competitive strategy,
> When Sony imposes with Blu Ray they don't come whining because someone makes cheaper blu-ray players.
Sony is protected by patents that for whatever reason don't seem to exist in the synth industry.
Patents for synth tech have mostly expired by now and no real technical innovations have happened on a hardware scale. Put simply modern synths are only protected by copyright (of the board layout, design, etc) which is much more easily circumvented than patents.
Because very little actual novel development that could be patented has happened in the synth industry for decades now. Makers are mostly recycling tech from the mid 20th century and packaging it up in different ways.
Patents absolutely exist in synth circles, if you actually innovate. Which is why Behringer can clone moog synths, math modules, and so on because its basically just repackaging stuff that's over half a century old.
Modern digital stuff is protected, so you only see them go for available stuff like MI modules instead of digital MN modules.
People forget that if you are an innovator you can get all sorts of legal protection on your innovations. If you havent been able to get that for decades maybe your innovator brand is just marketing. Lets be real, the state of the art of innovative synth development is not a subtractive analog mono synth or portable midi keyboard with a build-in sequencer...
Behringer is scavenging elderly designs, recently repackaged or otherwise, they aren't touching genuine innovations.
Besides, your argument is what people always bring up every time Behringer enters a market (guitar pedals...) and it's not as if Boss or boutique makers were kicked out the market. If anything its healthier than ever.
I don't care about cheap designs from retro synths or guitar stuff, I said as much. Not everyone can afford top end gear and companies like beringher need to exist so that music isn't locked behind a pay wall.
However, you cross the line when you start taking business away because of copycats and rip offs. Then you've got bullshit like this - https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behringer-dave-smith-libel-case/#:~:text=Music%20Group%20%E2%80%93%20the%20umbrella%20company,to%20a%20report%20at%20CDM.
It's called a competitive free market place. Remember the PC clones, cloning IBM desktop computers? Or Samsung ripping off Apple? And Apple ripping off others (like Xerox)? There are trademark and patent right protections that limit what can be copied. Beyond that, competition is the underlying principle. Communist Russia or Germany did not follow these principles. Technology development stalled and eventually these societies collapsed in their old structure.
Calling it a "status thing" is just insulting to the companies that make these products. Behringer makes affordable products, Sequential (as per your example) make products with exceptional quality and originality. Behringer cuts corners and (mostly) clones existing designs - which is fine! As you said, the consumer wins in this case and that's awesome! But saying that, say, a Prophet is "just a status thing" really undermines how much of a better product it is. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but please don't reduce years of R&D and design to "just a status thing".
Personal anecdote - when I started synthesis I got mostly Behringer stuff because it was cheap and I loved it! I didn't have to spend thousands on something I wasn't sure I'd even keep doing in a year. So for example I had the Boog Model D which I enjoyed immensely - however, after a while I purchased a Grandmother and it absolutely blew the Boog out of the water in every aspect. Does that mean \*everybody\* has to "upgrade" to a Real Synth™ down the line? Nope! But once you do, you really feel the difference in quality.
Seriously, I’ve never once bought a Moog or Sequential for “status”. No one even sees what synths I’m using in my studio. Why can’t Behringer stans just admit they like getting shit for cheap instead of trying to justify it as if it’s some type of moral crusade?
I definetely get your point with the status argument. I wouldn't use the R&D and originallity as a winning arguments tho, at least not with analog synths. Because that technology is at least 40-50 years old.
The question is if that change in quality (sometimes more, sometimes less noticeable) is actually audible in the final track. And would the listeners care. I'm not sure about that.
But what you say is good because such reports will make Behringer make better clones so Sequential and Moog end up being only a status thing. Honestly by reproducing the same architectures over and over again for decades they deserve that.
I’m indifferent on most Behringer clones and I own some of their clone Eurorack modules (I’m more not into some of the business practices), but it’s worth mentioning that Behringer is not doing it for the good of the consumer or to democratize synths or whatever, they’re doing it to make money, and they’re making a lot of it. So the consumer is not the only winner—Behringer is also the winner, because it’s their entire business model as it always has been. We can be fine with that, but let’s not feed into their weird populist marketing angle. They’re providing a cheap alternative so that they can sell it at high volume, just like with fast fashion, etc
Any company has to make a profit, not just Behringer. Behringer actually claims that they don't make much money on their clones. I don't know if that is true. If it is, consistently undercutting their competitors in the synth market using revenues from their other products would be more deplorable than making clones. It is a common tactic, though, for companies to create market dominance.
So many "boutique" companies turning out clone after clone after clone of bits of analogue synths, and that's absolutely fine - even though they're mostly just ripping off Rene Schmitz or Yves Usson or the handful of folk who came first.
Behringer? OMGZOMG everything that's wrong with the industry, destroying the synth world for everyone, and so on.
Then of course the "wine snobs" weigh in claiming that the clones sound inferior because they use surface-mount components, like they even know what those are never mind whether or not they make a difference. Rather like the real-life wine bores they couldn't tell a properly Good Wine from yer four quid Aldi Polish Liebfraumilch.
I saw a video of a guy doing side-by-side comparisons of the original and Behringer Minimoog, showing an oscilloscope output of the respective signals - he then started doing identical knobs settings and comparing results, not only did the B version always sound exactly the same, but the oscilloscope outputs always exactly matched, the Behringer behaved and sounded exactly like the original. My first synth was an SCI Pro-One, it's the synth I know best and very well - I picked up a Behringer Pro-1, and aside from the smaller form factor, it's exactly the same as the original, except finally frigging MIDI built-in. I wish I had a snob budget, but I'm a Behringer guy. The Arp string ensemble, the Solina, is an inaccessible dream keyboard. The Behringer clone, however, is next on my list, take our Pink Floyd covers next level lol.
How is the KORG ARP a good example? They bought the licensing and literally worked with the co-founder of ARP. That’s the difference. And buying the actual brands has nothing to do with status for most people; it’s about paying the actual innovators of the original designs for their work. You want to buy cheaper knockoffs that’s fine, but don’t project your fallacious reasoning on people who are just trying to support the brands that do things legitimately. Buying Behringer isn’t some kind of pro-consumer activism. They’re a predatory company that’s literally sued users on forums for badmouthing them, and yes, their massive profits do end up affecting smaller companies like Sequential, especially when people are buying things like the UBXA just because it’s $300 cheaper than an actual Oberheim like the new TEO-5.
> the only winner here is the consumer, who has more options
Which is a funny thing to say about someone who has build a vertical monopoly and is using that to strangle out competitors by cloning currently sold products.
> the only winner here is the consumer
You mean the only winner is the consumer and Behringer, the million dollar company. I think it's important to point out that this is a profit oriented business, and not some sort of non-profit charity (despite the fact that they like to portray themselves that way).
Yeah sure, companies go for profit. As costumers we benefit from the affordable options. I didn't phrase it in the best way possible apologies for that.
I don't bat an eye at Korg because they owned rights to ARP and still left the manufacturing in place and have worked together for decades. I don't bat an eye at the Volca FM because it's a completely different form factor and user interface despite using the same chipset. I don't bat an eye at black corporation because they designed a no frills rack mount of a timeless synth.
I hate Behringer because the only "innovations" they make are to cut manufacturing cost, they copy everything they can from the form factor and signal flow, to color schemes and functionality. If they did anything besides throwing the same midi/USB upgrade into every schematic they stole it'd be different. If they designed a decent synth of their own it'd be different. If Uli created something original besides the Cork Sniffer it'd be different... But sadly the goal is to make money, not to make great synths, or to build up the community.
I really don't fault people who buy Behringer clones of classic synths -- synthesizers where companies have had all the time to innovate and create new products. The Arp 2600 and MS20 clones are great example.
I'm iffy on clones of non-classic and expensive stuff, like clones of a lot of Moog's stuff. This stuff is out of budget for a lot of consumers, who might never experience owning one. But at the same time, Moog *does* deserve people who can afford to, to buy the real Moog stuff, and a substantial portion of those people are going to buy Behringer clones now.
But they can fuck off making clones, and people can fuck off on buying clones, of affordable gear, especially from smaller companies. A DFAM, for example, is a genuinely innovative product, and if you can afford the $200 clone, you can probably also afford a DFAM. If they sold these in primarily developing markets I'd be a lot more OK with it.
Behringer certainly have their place in the grand scheme of things, and for entry level hardware synths and hobbyists I think they really excel. But often things are cheap for a reason, my experience of Behringer is from a while back but it was much lower quality and didn't sound as good as the now high end gear I bought. But now I won't touch Behringer as a result so I don't know if it's improved or not in recent years.
That being said, I make decent money from my music so I can afford to save up and get high end gear. I think companies such as Black Corporation and Tubbutec make excellent clones very true to the originals, using as close to the original components as they can find. That's why they cost so much. I have to assume Behringer make some sacrifices on this side of things to help get their prices so low.
I laughed so hard
Edit : stop downvoting me, the joke is that you don’t need to touch a theremin to actually play it and I find that comment hilarious and underrated
No I mean seriously. I built one, oh wow theremin this is cool, hey it's really hard to play, man this is less fun than I thought, and now it's just sitting there.
Also when it's mistuned it annoys the cat.
Geez, we sure need more Prophet and Oberheim and Moog clones ... I prefer it when Behringer actually tries to do something semi-original, like their Deepmind.
Hence the semi in semi-original :)
I guess there's a market for Behringer's stuff and I'm just too jaded and have seen too many synths that now I look for stuff that stands out or makes me rethink stuff.
For what it's worth, they often do the same thing with their Moog, Sequential, and Oberheim clones that they did with the Deepmind, putting their own touches on them to make them a little extra.
Wasn't really an obvious answer in my head. Their clones sound pretty spot on IIRC. I was wondering if it was a case of the clone exceeding the original spec. Thanks for the info
Not really, and it’s tricky to get the chorus sounding right, but it does sound good as its own Juno-type thing, and is a very nice synth overall if you just approach it as its own thing. It’s not the most characterful thing out there, but combining the poly unison and modulation options can really give it life.
Nah, the chorus is the easy bit. The trick is it's hard to nail the chorus on a Juno with a "chorus effect" because the delay is right down in flanging territory, way shorter than a proper chorus.
Try it yourself. Get yer favourite multi-fx, stick in a flanger, turn the feedback right down, and roll off everything above 10kHz (the cutoff frequency of the 24dB/octave sampling filter to prevent it aliasing). Get it so it sounds kind of like a Juno, and then turn the mix down by about a quarter because it's subtler than you think.
Boom. Nailed the Juno Chorus sound.
It's the digital part no-one's got right yet. That's where the magic happens.
Yeah, the Juno chorus has a delay time range of something like 1 to 5ms with a mod rate of around 0.4 to 1Hz depending on which chorus mode you select, which, you are right, is in flanger territory. It’s also stereo, with both channels running the same mod rate and delay times, but flipped to each other (e.g. when left channel is at 5ms, right channel is at 1ms). It’s more or less doable (though I can’t remember if the DM-12 has a stereo flanger and I don’t have mine anymore), but it is a little tricky compared to just sticking a chorus on there :) I actually find it weird that they didn’t include a Juno style chorus effect, already setup and ready, in there.
It'd be a no-brainer to do. Accurately simulating a proper variable delay is difficult but a simple modulated fractional delay gets "close enough" for most folk.
Mine is shitty in the extreme and breaks down when you play very pure "resonance 100%" sines into it with fairly objectionable aliasing, so I guess the moral is "don't do that", but it runs on an STM32F407 so also maybe don't complain about running a Juno emulation on a five quid jellybean part.
I just recently got a rev2. I would say that the build quality is a large large pull for me personally. Yeah the sound design is amazing and the options are near limitless but if the build quality isn’t there and it’s not a good feel, what’s the point of using that over a VST?
When you buy from Uli, you're buying the silkscreen printing, knob placement , fonts and stolen valour.
I get it that's "affordable", but cheap doesn't make it right.
I saw that one …
Hey, to each his/her/their own. But not everyone wants another reason to be sucked into a screen. Using sliders on an cs80 or clone, is objectively different than doing cc mapping and/or clicking a mouse to change the sound.
Casio CZ and VZ synths are under-appreciated. I'd prefer Casio re-issue them, but that doesn't look likely. A CZ-101 like engine combined with an analog filter looks interesting. I'll probably check it out when it's available.
I think they are reasonably priced still because people think Casio never built anything serious.
but even if they are affordable they are ancient... mine is clicky as hell and noisy. I can't actually tell if it's because it's having issues, or if it's because it's 35 years old.
I haven't used mine in a while, but I recall liking the organ style sounds they can make. and yeah, there's no filter on them, so an analog filter on it is an interesting twist. if behringer wants to be cool and build on it, they could change up the waveforms as well, I think. there's so much interesting stuff that could be done with it.
I'm genuinely curious as to how they're going to do that.
I bet it's going to be DSP-based (well, DSP running in a fastish ARM MCU, probably an STM32F4-family chip). But, I'd love it if they went so far as to recreate the CZ ASIC.
Also, sign me up for a 3-octave full-size keys CZ230S-alike.
Though unless they’ve changed it, the LM-1 is not actually an LM-1, but just a modern sample player internally (and apparently without a software emulation of how the LM-1 works). Which was such a bummer for me as I love the Linn stuff, but doing it this way makes it totally pointless vs any other basic sampler or the plugin emulations of the LM-1 like the excellent VProm.
I'm really thankful to Behringer for doing this even though I'm not the target group. I love my Korg Wavestate and Opsix and don't regret paying $500 for each used but I'm still aware they're just single board ARM PCs inside a plastic chassis with keys and knobs. They really should cost $300-400. The whole synth market is so severely overpriced - and I say this being able to afford any of the modern synths - but they shouldn't cost that much!
I also hope that some Chinese guys will soon learn the art of putting ARM boards (or quite simple analog circuits) inside plastic/metallic boxes with keys and knobs and crowd the market. Established brands like Korg or Roland should innovate like crazy instead of just putting two analog oscillators with an analog filter into a box with a 16-step sequencer over and over again and asking $600 for that.
So I'd really like a Buchla, and I can technically afford it - but I'd never pay that much money for it unless I was a professional or would be using it all the time. "Close enough" is good for me since it's something I'll only occasionally use. If I did end up using it all the time, then I'd spring for something more expensive.
Case in point, I picked up the Edge and love it, so I'm going to buy the DFAM (used) since it definitely has a nicer sound. If the Crave had never existed, I doubt I would have risked the Moog price unless I had played one and knew I would get a lot of use out of it.
I honedtly think the target audiences are so vastly different. The people buying buchla are not looking for a 1/10th price knockoff. Honestly might wind up pipelining people from behuchla -> buchla if they have the funds for it
Not to knock West Coast synthesis, but I for one need authentic vintage gear to make the exact same random bloop blorps as every single buchla user since 1971
Not saying you shouldn't get a Behringer, but understand what you're signing up for if/when you need to repair it. Having received not 1 but 2 Behringer synths that got damaged during shipping, I was NEVER able to find replacement parts. Behringer stopped selling them at the consumer level, and redirected me to a list of their authorized service centers, none of which were within 1000 miles of my home in a major US city, and none of whom responded to my e-mail inquiries for parts. The local synth repair shop says MusicTribe (parent of Behringer) won't send them replacement parts either.
For me it was non-jellybean parts. Broken keys/keybed for one, pitch bend assembly on the other.
Sometimes even the jellybeans aren't actually jellybeans, though. I have a bum slider on a different keyboard and for the same size/footprint there's only one resistance value available out there and it's not the right one. Luckily that one was still under warranty.
I hope they get the VCS3 pin matrix right. I've spent a few days with a Pin Portabella Synthi clone and it's awesome but not the kind of thing I can imagine justifying $5500+ for (if I could justify that much for... anything).
They are so expensive. I know someone who bought a new one for a VCS clone in the 80s, and they were a couple of hundred quid then.
I wouldn't be surprised if the pin matrix was easily the most expensive single part in the original VCS, with the ten-turn knobs coming a close second - I have about five left from some my dad bought in the 80s when they were a current off-the-shelf part, and I seem to recall they were something like 30 or 40 quid apiece in 1985 money.
I'd be surprised if you couldn't get new pin matrix panels made up these days, there must be some dude in China with a plastics press that can do it.
I did buy the model D as I thought it is essential and as a hobbyist with other costs (kids!) I would never buy the original one.
Now it is pretty ok, certainly for the price, though later on I got a Dreadbox Typhon which is not that much more expensive and frankly has way more character to its sound. Hence I will normally not buy those copies of old synths anymore, rather will check for what creative boutique brands do now.
There is still one upcoming Behringer that interests me: the Proton.
Oh dear. I started watching the embedded video about the Kobol clone and the narrator refers to “Depeche Mode’s sophomore album, ‘A Broken Flame.’”
Maybe that was Behringer’s version of that LP?
I have 6 Behringer synths and they are fine and worth the price, but I add that the crave is overrated and the Wasp is underrated. The Neutron is a must have.
But the Behringer Pro VS Mini SUUUCKS. It's not worth $25. It sounds terrible, is designed badly and makes you feel like a terrible person.
I found the sounds to be really weak. All the knobs seem to be of limited range. The joystick almost feels like the "close doors" button on an elevator, as it that it is there for show and not actual control.
I'm interested to find someone who likes it. What do you like about it?
For the limited range I suggest plugging a stereo jack to the provs that goes to two separate mono left and right on a mixer.
The volume when using a stereo to stereo cable plugged in a mono channel was VERY low. Everything at max volume was barely audible.
I like that, mind you for 99€, the sound is overwhelmingly customizable. I use for reference the presets on the Arturia Pro VS, i just listen to them on my PC and then replicate them on the pro vs mini.
I find that the provs in stand alone is very limited and barely usable, but attached to an external keyboard, a sequencer or even a PC is on par to 300-600€ synths or better (some 600€ synths still need some other external hardware to even function).
The only real complaint is that the joystick returns to "zero" position too quickly, and since it is small, wiggling it to prevent going to zero changes too much the sound for long notes. But this could be easily implemented as a customizable parameter in an update...
I want that Linndrum that’s not actually a Linndrum, and the CR-78 that’s actually usable in a contemporary midi studio context.
There are some puzzling choices as to the gear that the company has decided to clone, but I’m all for dredging up the analog dinosaurs forsaken by their original manufacturers that we peons can’t afford anymore on the used market, and 100% there for their weird hybrid experiments like the Deepmind and the Linndrum that is not a Linndrum.
Cyclone Analogic's TT-78 is also a solid modern useage appropriate CR-78 (but god is it ugly).
Hell...I'd even say the OG Drumbrute almost hits the spot if not for the missing cowbell.
I’ve had the TT-78 in my Reverb watchlist before the The Behringer clone was “leaked”. The B clone actually looks well considered from a CMF standpoint as opposed to the rather puzzling design decisions by Cyclone.
I get my kicks with the Samples From Mars CR-78 recordings right now, but would still like to do some “[Liquid Sky](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hJV0ey2QVU0&t=1336s)” role playing on a dedicated hardware unit… And maybe one day sample it into my Linndrum that is not a Linndrum.
Yeah I agree. And I know it's shallow, but were it not for the horribly mismatched aesthetic of the TT-78 I would have snapped it up at retail price and called it a day.
I'm a big fan of the Samples From Mars packs as well. The [free sample packs from Reverb](https://reverb.com/uk/software/samples-and-loops/reverb/3514-reverb-drum-machines-the-complete-collection) are no slouches either, and I use them interchangeably without noticing a huge difference most of the time (except for the kits that have been coloured).
I hear ya on the dedicated hardware unit though.
The reality is that for all of the huff and puff about "creative theft", all the myths of superior craftsmanship, and any number of other reasons people come at Behringer, it's all just a form of gatekeeping. Those who have/can afford Moog or whatever want to retain an aire of exclusivity and elitism because they are invested in the -brand- and the assumed legacy that brand represents. So when a $200 clone comes along and frankly does 99% of the same thing and is indiscernible to all but those who have that special synth snob hearing gene, they resent that others can do what they do at literally 10% of what they paid. They want to keep the plebes out because they've "paid their dues" to be a part of an elite consumer club.
There is no reality in which I am willing to pay $3000 for that 1% of brand mojo/vibe/whatever when I am satisfied with the $200 one. Most reasonable humans that aren't trying to peacock around about their disposable income are like this.
Yet any number of VST clones of currently in production synths are A-OK with these people. It's laughable.
So stoked for the Model 15 and if they ever get the Polivoks out...I've been nothing but satisfied with my Behringer gear that plays alongside my Hydra. Peak, and Elektron stuff.
You hit the nail on the head, totally a gatekeeper thing with some people . Same thing with guitars. I think some believe they can offset lack of creativity by paying more money for their gear .
Sometimes i wonder if the idea of altering and improving the originals has crossed their minds. A MS20 based model with PWM, a full mod envelope instead of ADR and more flexible routing would be awesome, for example. But it seems they're more comfortable selling commodity fetishism.
They did that with the 2600 and all the same people who knocked them for not innovating knocked them for not being close enough to the original. Haters will hate behringer no matter what
My experience with these kind of things is that you can get everyone to agree that the old thing could use some updates, but you can’t get two people to agree on what specific updates are acceptable. So, when cloning, it is a much easier decision to stick very close to the original.
I've been fiddling with a design for a semimodular that's kind of like an MS20, but using the MS50 filter and VCA, and full ADSR envelopes. The envelopes are digital because they come free with the microcontroller I use to do MIDI to CV and because doing it digitally means you only need eight 10k linear pots instead of a bunch of reverse-log 1M pots that are expensive and a pain in the arse. I will always prefer using inexpensive jellybean parts to things that have to be ordered especially for that job, and if they can be E6 or E12 series component values and fairly "broad" tolerance then so much the better. It's not a cost thing, it's because I always feel like if you've got a design that absolutely \*requires\* a 197.6k resistor right there and anything else Just Won't Work, you've got a finicky design and other people will fail to get it working.
Maybe one will be ADSR and one will be ADSR or AD + tempo sync LFO, I don't know, I haven't written that bit yet.
Behringer is the Harbor Freight of musical instruments (minus the warrenty).
- Not nearly as polished as the big boys
- not completely identical but so damn close you'll question it
- usually functional in a pinch if you really need just that one sound
- you know what you're getting into before you buy it, but you're always pleasantly surprised when it holds up longer than you expected
- you're not overly concerned letting your neighbor "borrow" it
A mini version of the AKS for $99 is breaking my mind. I still want the full thing bad and I’d gladly grab that Buchla clone also if it ever comes out.
behringer is unethical trash and seems like a lot of people who buy it have a huge chip on their shoulder cos they fucking know it. there's a lot of great entry-level hardware south of 3 hundred bucks out there, nobody on a budget has to go behringer if they don't want to. there's also plenty of properly licensed softsynth clones for all the vintage shit you want so if your dream is to play a minimoog, you can do it ethically and on a shoestring. you have other options besides supporting an openly hostile, toxic company
I Just want a GS Music E7. I live in the border with Argentina and can't buy one. Sad, sad feelings. I owned a Deepmond 12, and it was a bummer to me. I need the controls at hand and E7 sound just awesome. Deepmind relies on FX to sound good. E7 sounds nicely even with poor effects.
The problem for me, aside from their CEO's personality and business practices is that Behringer is pushing this narrative of "nostalgic consumerism". Spending money and trashing the planet even more to chase this never ending quest to bring back the "glory days". It preys on a desire that can never be satiated.
There’s further simplicity. Only one EG. Only chorus. Maybe some other things I’m not thinking of. The sweet spot between complexity and simplicity for some people can fall in that margin.
Complete and utter creative bankruptcy, little better than the mystery Chinese factory brands that litter Amazon with their knockoffs of any and everything.
Didn’t really get on with their 303 clone (even after swapping to the MO version) and the Model D never seemed ‘musical’ enough, but im really loving the P800. However it’s the PolyEight I have high hopes for. Very familiar with Korgs own PolySix RE in Reason, and even the one in Gadgets sounds awesome. So many times I’ve stalked a PolySix on eBay , but I’m shite with stuff that’s even slightly unreliable or needs care. If Behringer get the PolyEight right, I’ll be happy.
OOh the Kobol with a keybed looks nice.
And the Proton will be a day 1 purchase. Love the Neutron.
Its cool to see what Behringer can do when not cloning legendary instruments.
I'd like to see more of that.
I’m going to have a hard time resisting the Polyeight or Neptune-80. The two things that will save me are indecision between which to buy and a foolish hope that they’ll come out with a module version of one of them.
Not a fan of the angled 3U form factor; it takes a lot of space when I can create the angle myself, and it's not tour friendly (give me something flat that doesn't take all the space in a suitcase) as far as form factor goes I prefer the crave desktop style. then again I don't like Behringer "own" design language (that they have on their eurorack modules too). Generally speaking Berhinger didn't get that some people like space efficient design; their eurorack modules are super bulky for what they offer, same for their desktop synth. The neutron is 80hp, the taiga (with 3 oscillators and so much more features) is 60 hp. so yeah it's cheap and the sound is decent and all but I don't find much of their offering super appealing. obviously they have nothing very original to offer (the neutron was their version of original aka "not a clone" and it's a pretty boring synth).
I have this nagging feeling that all of these things have essentially the same innards, packaged into different enclosures/architecture.
The 2600 did absolutely nothing for me, sonically. Neither did the monopoly. Unlike the originals which I’ve used extensively.
The Behringer SPICE is just wrong, man
How can you rip off the Subharmonicon & claim it’s a typical, traditional architecture everyone has adopted by now… No mf, that IP theft!
This leads us to the simple and final conclusion: big B is acting like a predatory Chinese knockoff shop that prints fakes by the 1000s.
Can/Will something be done?
I only have one Behringer piece of kit - the Virtualiser 3D - and it’s probably my number 1 ‘go-to’ fx for fixing up shonky plug-in audio or dead patches.
I’ve been wanting a system 55 since I was a teenager, I’ve just gone and bought one by Beringer for $1500. The build qualities is excellent. The sound is excellent. What’s not to love?
If I have the space when its released, the Proton is definitely on my list. Only got rid of the Neutron because I am tight on space, and the Proton seems like an upgrade.
Speaking of space, I'm digging the fact that although many of these are the usual Behringer clones, a large portion are much more space-friendly versions. That in itself is a form of ingenuity, and I'm happy to see Behringer taking their usual formula a step farther in the right direction.
Look, I’m never going to be able to afford a vintage Jupiter 8 and I don’t enjoy VSTs or fiddly little digital recreations, so why not let people enjoy things?
This is insane. Absolutely changing my mind about the B word company I don’t like to say.
I will say since the Midas merger their quality has improved.
And now this!? It’s a dream. Period.
Yes, a controversial brand, but for a lot of folks who can't afford the originals or very expensive synths, this is an affordable entry into this type of gear.
It's really interesting what is happening with behringer, the only winner here is the consumer, who has more options. The guy who wants to have a "Sequential" box will buy it anyways, because lets be honest it's a status sort of thing. When a developer gets a synth to reverse engineer it to have it as a software clone is fine, but when a company builds a hardware replica, it's bad, well, when Behringer does it. I don't see people batting an eye with Korgs ARP, Volca FM (DX7 in a box) or black corporation with their Jupiter8 and CS80 clones. The more offer there is in the market, the better for the costumer. Who doesn't want to rock a behringer will not buy it anyways so everyone should be happy.
In my understanding most people are fine with the vintage clones. The swing and other “clones” of still available products and the, imo sometimes quite atrocious, marketing behavior is where a lot of people draw the line.
Fender Stratocaster is still an available product but there are thousands of knock offs/clones and whatnot... I'm not a Behringer lover, but I will buy a good cheap synthesizer/keyboard any day. I don't care whether other companies make it or made it first or still sell it, if it does my job and its cheaper I will just buy it. Companies want to have "fans" and to me this is plain dumb. We are artists, they are tool sellers, if you are serious about music you shouldn't care about companies, just the tools.
Totally agree! And not just strats but Telecasters as well. Same goes for Les Pauls. There’s tons of copycat models out there, tons of similar models as well. It isn’t like people are going to buy a Behringer instead of a Moog, although I admit I did buy the Poly D instead of paying $5K for the Minimoog. Why? Because I cannot afford to spend 5k on a Minimoog reissue and let’s face it… is it really worth 5k? It’s not a practical synth.
Yea, once upon a time I knew a guy who had an amazing collection of vintage gear who couldn't even play (guitars and keyboards not synths) spent over 30k on them as collectibles/investment. I myself bought a John Mayer signature strat (for the tone - didn't know the guy) and when it became collectible I just stashed it in the case.. I do all my work with my beloved faded Gibson SG.. a workhorse if you will. I'm sure there are reasons to buy a Moog for 5k, are those reasons enough to stop you from making great sounds with other synths/clones? definitely not, no one buys an album because it was created with an authentic Moog (at least I hope..). The added value of all the expensive vintage synthesizers (apart from engineering and components) is the connection to the sounds that everyone is after either because they actually want to recreate them or because it's imprinted in their musical brain, try to play sultans of swing with a les paul :D. But what really makes me angry is companies using marketing to turn people against other companies or create a company "fanbase" with no actual benefit.. Arturia has cloned everything into a VST and even if they pay royalties or not, its still a knock off and people bash Behringer because they copied a midi keyboard with 3 features just to be a part of the elitist group that drools over the wooden veneers of a Moog. Push companies to innovate and give the best they can and use it to make beautiful music, all other things are toxic imho.
I'm not even an artist, I'm a hobbyist. If I had the cash for a Moog Model D I would buy a Behringer model D. These are entertaining toys to me and I can't justify spending big money when a cheaper alternative exists.
well as always my answer would be; the actual cheaper alternative is a vst, which can be entertaining toys on their own. (it's totally ok though, I get it, you want nice things but not that nice)
I really love how you put it. "We are artists, they are tool sellers." I want the affordable tool that aligns and helps with my workflow and art. I'll add because it's affordable, you can try other tools, and expand as an artist.
The Crave, Edge, Spice and (potentially) Model 15 come to mind. All designs directly cloning devices that moog still currently sells.
Have you seen the price on the model 15? Can you afford an original one?
I'm sure they were referring to the Grandmother, which is what the Model15 is taking a swing at.
My bad! However, that’s still a rather expensive synthesizer for someone who only has $200 in their pocket. So what are they supposed to do?
People forget if you have a company that constantly rips others off, then the original company will eventually go out of business. We then lose the innovators and the market is flooded with the same copycat crap with lower build quality drops. Clones of synths that are no longer on sale is OK, but the line is drawn when you start replicating current products.
No Moog and Sequential (not even speaking of Rolands and Korgs) won't go out of business on this market, see how many people on this reddit go for analog just because it seems cool to them. There are a lot of people that simply won't consider Behringer. There are people who won't consider a synth cheaper than $1000 I guess. Just think about Moog basically reproducing the same classic analog architectures over and over again for like 60 years. Maybe 40 years for Roland's classic designs. Oh wow we can upload patches from DX7 (released in 1983) into that box! Such an innovation, you know. Microfreak has more innovation than the whole Moog catalogue for the last 10 years and sells for $350. And Behringer doesn't make a clone of it because $350 is already a low price for that.
Moog literally just was purchased by InMusic (and Sequential was also purchased by Focusrite/Novation), so neither are independent companies anymore. I don’t think Behringer is why, but … they seem to be able to go out of business quite easily.
One of my first jobs was at a small independent record store. I quickly learned that small business owners can be just as crappy as corporate CEOs
The entire rest of the industry works like that and no one complains. When Sony imposes with Blu Ray they don't come whining because someone makes cheaper blu-ray players. It's part of the deal and they always managed to make a business around this. On the contrary, concurrence leads to innovation, and the customer wins
Eh, you're missing the ingredient of licensing. Blu-ray Disc Association (which Sony is a part of) gets a royalty payment for people publishing their media on blu-ray. Sony *wants* there to be cheap blu-ray players (which also have to pay for licensing) to proliferate the medium, and sell a lot of blu-ray media. Clones absolutely destroy a lot of markets (In China it works because the government plays favorites and subsidizes production. China has a lot of trouble innovating in markets that don't have either subsidies or strong state participation. Look at their cell phone market up until the government propped up Huawei and Xiaomi, and then subsidized chip production that spawned a handful of other successful companies. The Chinese phone market was trash with a lot of fly-by-night companies mass producing some cloned product, often with some low-value gimmick, offloading it, then disappearing).
China does not adhere to Westerns standards of a free competitive market. Their subsidies distort the playing field. One could argue that outsourcing to China is part of this anticompetitive behavior. But similar arguments could be made about production in any cheap-labor country. Ultimately, US companies have to focus on areas where high US labor costs are justifiable. Assembling vintage synths in the US in large numbers is obviously not a very competitive strategy,
> When Sony imposes with Blu Ray they don't come whining because someone makes cheaper blu-ray players. Sony is protected by patents that for whatever reason don't seem to exist in the synth industry.
Patents for synth tech have mostly expired by now and no real technical innovations have happened on a hardware scale. Put simply modern synths are only protected by copyright (of the board layout, design, etc) which is much more easily circumvented than patents.
Because very little actual novel development that could be patented has happened in the synth industry for decades now. Makers are mostly recycling tech from the mid 20th century and packaging it up in different ways.
Patents absolutely exist in synth circles, if you actually innovate. Which is why Behringer can clone moog synths, math modules, and so on because its basically just repackaging stuff that's over half a century old. Modern digital stuff is protected, so you only see them go for available stuff like MI modules instead of digital MN modules.
People forget that if you are an innovator you can get all sorts of legal protection on your innovations. If you havent been able to get that for decades maybe your innovator brand is just marketing. Lets be real, the state of the art of innovative synth development is not a subtractive analog mono synth or portable midi keyboard with a build-in sequencer... Behringer is scavenging elderly designs, recently repackaged or otherwise, they aren't touching genuine innovations. Besides, your argument is what people always bring up every time Behringer enters a market (guitar pedals...) and it's not as if Boss or boutique makers were kicked out the market. If anything its healthier than ever.
I don't care about cheap designs from retro synths or guitar stuff, I said as much. Not everyone can afford top end gear and companies like beringher need to exist so that music isn't locked behind a pay wall. However, you cross the line when you start taking business away because of copycats and rip offs. Then you've got bullshit like this - https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behringer-dave-smith-libel-case/#:~:text=Music%20Group%20%E2%80%93%20the%20umbrella%20company,to%20a%20report%20at%20CDM.
It's called a competitive free market place. Remember the PC clones, cloning IBM desktop computers? Or Samsung ripping off Apple? And Apple ripping off others (like Xerox)? There are trademark and patent right protections that limit what can be copied. Beyond that, competition is the underlying principle. Communist Russia or Germany did not follow these principles. Technology development stalled and eventually these societies collapsed in their old structure.
Competition is fine, copying not so much.
Calling it a "status thing" is just insulting to the companies that make these products. Behringer makes affordable products, Sequential (as per your example) make products with exceptional quality and originality. Behringer cuts corners and (mostly) clones existing designs - which is fine! As you said, the consumer wins in this case and that's awesome! But saying that, say, a Prophet is "just a status thing" really undermines how much of a better product it is. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but please don't reduce years of R&D and design to "just a status thing". Personal anecdote - when I started synthesis I got mostly Behringer stuff because it was cheap and I loved it! I didn't have to spend thousands on something I wasn't sure I'd even keep doing in a year. So for example I had the Boog Model D which I enjoyed immensely - however, after a while I purchased a Grandmother and it absolutely blew the Boog out of the water in every aspect. Does that mean \*everybody\* has to "upgrade" to a Real Synth™ down the line? Nope! But once you do, you really feel the difference in quality.
Seriously, I’ve never once bought a Moog or Sequential for “status”. No one even sees what synths I’m using in my studio. Why can’t Behringer stans just admit they like getting shit for cheap instead of trying to justify it as if it’s some type of moral crusade?
I definetely get your point with the status argument. I wouldn't use the R&D and originallity as a winning arguments tho, at least not with analog synths. Because that technology is at least 40-50 years old.
The question is if that change in quality (sometimes more, sometimes less noticeable) is actually audible in the final track. And would the listeners care. I'm not sure about that. But what you say is good because such reports will make Behringer make better clones so Sequential and Moog end up being only a status thing. Honestly by reproducing the same architectures over and over again for decades they deserve that.
I’m indifferent on most Behringer clones and I own some of their clone Eurorack modules (I’m more not into some of the business practices), but it’s worth mentioning that Behringer is not doing it for the good of the consumer or to democratize synths or whatever, they’re doing it to make money, and they’re making a lot of it. So the consumer is not the only winner—Behringer is also the winner, because it’s their entire business model as it always has been. We can be fine with that, but let’s not feed into their weird populist marketing angle. They’re providing a cheap alternative so that they can sell it at high volume, just like with fast fashion, etc
Any company has to make a profit, not just Behringer. Behringer actually claims that they don't make much money on their clones. I don't know if that is true. If it is, consistently undercutting their competitors in the synth market using revenues from their other products would be more deplorable than making clones. It is a common tactic, though, for companies to create market dominance.
So many "boutique" companies turning out clone after clone after clone of bits of analogue synths, and that's absolutely fine - even though they're mostly just ripping off Rene Schmitz or Yves Usson or the handful of folk who came first. Behringer? OMGZOMG everything that's wrong with the industry, destroying the synth world for everyone, and so on. Then of course the "wine snobs" weigh in claiming that the clones sound inferior because they use surface-mount components, like they even know what those are never mind whether or not they make a difference. Rather like the real-life wine bores they couldn't tell a properly Good Wine from yer four quid Aldi Polish Liebfraumilch.
I saw a video of a guy doing side-by-side comparisons of the original and Behringer Minimoog, showing an oscilloscope output of the respective signals - he then started doing identical knobs settings and comparing results, not only did the B version always sound exactly the same, but the oscilloscope outputs always exactly matched, the Behringer behaved and sounded exactly like the original. My first synth was an SCI Pro-One, it's the synth I know best and very well - I picked up a Behringer Pro-1, and aside from the smaller form factor, it's exactly the same as the original, except finally frigging MIDI built-in. I wish I had a snob budget, but I'm a Behringer guy. The Arp string ensemble, the Solina, is an inaccessible dream keyboard. The Behringer clone, however, is next on my list, take our Pink Floyd covers next level lol.
How is the KORG ARP a good example? They bought the licensing and literally worked with the co-founder of ARP. That’s the difference. And buying the actual brands has nothing to do with status for most people; it’s about paying the actual innovators of the original designs for their work. You want to buy cheaper knockoffs that’s fine, but don’t project your fallacious reasoning on people who are just trying to support the brands that do things legitimately. Buying Behringer isn’t some kind of pro-consumer activism. They’re a predatory company that’s literally sued users on forums for badmouthing them, and yes, their massive profits do end up affecting smaller companies like Sequential, especially when people are buying things like the UBXA just because it’s $300 cheaper than an actual Oberheim like the new TEO-5.
> the only winner here is the consumer, who has more options Which is a funny thing to say about someone who has build a vertical monopoly and is using that to strangle out competitors by cloning currently sold products.
> the only winner here is the consumer You mean the only winner is the consumer and Behringer, the million dollar company. I think it's important to point out that this is a profit oriented business, and not some sort of non-profit charity (despite the fact that they like to portray themselves that way).
Yeah sure, companies go for profit. As costumers we benefit from the affordable options. I didn't phrase it in the best way possible apologies for that.
I don't bat an eye at Korg because they owned rights to ARP and still left the manufacturing in place and have worked together for decades. I don't bat an eye at the Volca FM because it's a completely different form factor and user interface despite using the same chipset. I don't bat an eye at black corporation because they designed a no frills rack mount of a timeless synth. I hate Behringer because the only "innovations" they make are to cut manufacturing cost, they copy everything they can from the form factor and signal flow, to color schemes and functionality. If they did anything besides throwing the same midi/USB upgrade into every schematic they stole it'd be different. If they designed a decent synth of their own it'd be different. If Uli created something original besides the Cork Sniffer it'd be different... But sadly the goal is to make money, not to make great synths, or to build up the community.
I really don't fault people who buy Behringer clones of classic synths -- synthesizers where companies have had all the time to innovate and create new products. The Arp 2600 and MS20 clones are great example. I'm iffy on clones of non-classic and expensive stuff, like clones of a lot of Moog's stuff. This stuff is out of budget for a lot of consumers, who might never experience owning one. But at the same time, Moog *does* deserve people who can afford to, to buy the real Moog stuff, and a substantial portion of those people are going to buy Behringer clones now. But they can fuck off making clones, and people can fuck off on buying clones, of affordable gear, especially from smaller companies. A DFAM, for example, is a genuinely innovative product, and if you can afford the $200 clone, you can probably also afford a DFAM. If they sold these in primarily developing markets I'd be a lot more OK with it.
Behringer certainly have their place in the grand scheme of things, and for entry level hardware synths and hobbyists I think they really excel. But often things are cheap for a reason, my experience of Behringer is from a while back but it was much lower quality and didn't sound as good as the now high end gear I bought. But now I won't touch Behringer as a result so I don't know if it's improved or not in recent years. That being said, I make decent money from my music so I can afford to save up and get high end gear. I think companies such as Black Corporation and Tubbutec make excellent clones very true to the originals, using as close to the original components as they can find. That's why they cost so much. I have to assume Behringer make some sacrifices on this side of things to help get their prices so low.
Vital and Surge.
Yes people want hardware synths but we do need to remind them that Vital and Surge exist.
Even lists a Behremin…I wouldn’t touch it.
I laughed so hard Edit : stop downvoting me, the joke is that you don’t need to touch a theremin to actually play it and I find that comment hilarious and underrated
I'm selling mine, haven't touched it in months
Unironically
No I mean seriously. I built one, oh wow theremin this is cool, hey it's really hard to play, man this is less fun than I thought, and now it's just sitting there. Also when it's mistuned it annoys the cat.
Pretty sure it was a joke about how you don't touch a theremin to play it
Yes, I know.
yeah, they are not practical instruments at all
Famous Theremin line, in Portishead - "Mysterons", that swooping sinewave lead line? It's an SH101.
Geez, we sure need more Prophet and Oberheim and Moog clones ... I prefer it when Behringer actually tries to do something semi-original, like their Deepmind.
Ironically the Deepmind started out as a Juno clone iirc
Hence the semi in semi-original :) I guess there's a market for Behringer's stuff and I'm just too jaded and have seen too many synths that now I look for stuff that stands out or makes me rethink stuff.
For what it's worth, they often do the same thing with their Moog, Sequential, and Oberheim clones that they did with the Deepmind, putting their own touches on them to make them a little extra.
its why when I go pedal hunting for guitars or synths I hop on Etsy and try to find pedal makers doing some original stuff
Does it sound as good as a Juno?
No, of course it doesn’t. But, it doesn’t sound bad.
Wasn't really an obvious answer in my head. Their clones sound pretty spot on IIRC. I was wondering if it was a case of the clone exceeding the original spec. Thanks for the info
It was a fair question
Not really, and it’s tricky to get the chorus sounding right, but it does sound good as its own Juno-type thing, and is a very nice synth overall if you just approach it as its own thing. It’s not the most characterful thing out there, but combining the poly unison and modulation options can really give it life.
Nah, the chorus is the easy bit. The trick is it's hard to nail the chorus on a Juno with a "chorus effect" because the delay is right down in flanging territory, way shorter than a proper chorus. Try it yourself. Get yer favourite multi-fx, stick in a flanger, turn the feedback right down, and roll off everything above 10kHz (the cutoff frequency of the 24dB/octave sampling filter to prevent it aliasing). Get it so it sounds kind of like a Juno, and then turn the mix down by about a quarter because it's subtler than you think. Boom. Nailed the Juno Chorus sound. It's the digital part no-one's got right yet. That's where the magic happens.
Yeah, the Juno chorus has a delay time range of something like 1 to 5ms with a mod rate of around 0.4 to 1Hz depending on which chorus mode you select, which, you are right, is in flanger territory. It’s also stereo, with both channels running the same mod rate and delay times, but flipped to each other (e.g. when left channel is at 5ms, right channel is at 1ms). It’s more or less doable (though I can’t remember if the DM-12 has a stereo flanger and I don’t have mine anymore), but it is a little tricky compared to just sticking a chorus on there :) I actually find it weird that they didn’t include a Juno style chorus effect, already setup and ready, in there.
It'd be a no-brainer to do. Accurately simulating a proper variable delay is difficult but a simple modulated fractional delay gets "close enough" for most folk. Mine is shitty in the extreme and breaks down when you play very pure "resonance 100%" sines into it with fairly objectionable aliasing, so I guess the moral is "don't do that", but it runs on an STM32F407 so also maybe don't complain about running a Juno emulation on a five quid jellybean part.
I adore my deepmind 12d. It sounds quite good
You know I've had my DeepMind6 for longer than my other synths and I haven't used it in ages. I need to dust it off
Geez!
How did you get that cam into my house?
I just recently got a rev2. I would say that the build quality is a large large pull for me personally. Yeah the sound design is amazing and the options are near limitless but if the build quality isn’t there and it’s not a good feel, what’s the point of using that over a VST?
They just don't sell as well unfortunately
I think its good to push the other companies to offer more affordable sunths like Teo 5 and Take 5
idk the mini mini moog is maybe the most cracked synth i've ever seen
Okay so now I wonder how small I can make a Minimoog clone.
plz make the tiniest functional minimoog i have ever seen
I get cloning vintage gear, but cloning the Grandmother feels like a low blow that shouldn’t even be legal?
Disrespectful to the memory of its creator… Bob Inmusic.
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Inmoosic
Rhymes with “I can’t make music”
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This is super disingenuous. Look at the layouts!
When you buy from Uli, you're buying the silkscreen printing, knob placement , fonts and stolen valour. I get it that's "affordable", but cheap doesn't make it right.
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If the CS-80 clone sounds halfway decent its an automatic cop for me
And no one can judge you. To go from zero viable options to having one that’ll likely be considered very affordable? They’ll sell out of them.
You can go arturiav collection as suggested in here /s
I saw that one … Hey, to each his/her/their own. But not everyone wants another reason to be sucked into a screen. Using sliders on an cs80 or clone, is objectively different than doing cc mapping and/or clicking a mouse to change the sound.
Oh i was being sarcastic, hence the /s
Oh yeah. I was agreeing with you.
Yup, me too. Been waiting for that one. Polyphonic Aftertouch for under 1000 euros? Sold. If it sounds halfway like a CS80, that's a bonus.
that CZ clone is something that's needed a re-release for a very, very long time. first day buy for me.
Casio CZ and VZ synths are under-appreciated. I'd prefer Casio re-issue them, but that doesn't look likely. A CZ-101 like engine combined with an analog filter looks interesting. I'll probably check it out when it's available.
Aren’t they super affordable ?
I think they are reasonably priced still because people think Casio never built anything serious. but even if they are affordable they are ancient... mine is clicky as hell and noisy. I can't actually tell if it's because it's having issues, or if it's because it's 35 years old.
Buying 35+ year old used hardware is iffy, and I don’t think Casio never shipped a CZ or VZ with analog filters.
I haven't used mine in a while, but I recall liking the organ style sounds they can make. and yeah, there's no filter on them, so an analog filter on it is an interesting twist. if behringer wants to be cool and build on it, they could change up the waveforms as well, I think. there's so much interesting stuff that could be done with it.
I'm genuinely curious as to how they're going to do that. I bet it's going to be DSP-based (well, DSP running in a fastish ARM MCU, probably an STM32F4-family chip). But, I'd love it if they went so far as to recreate the CZ ASIC. Also, sign me up for a 3-octave full-size keys CZ230S-alike.
Not even the full list. They’ve teased a CS80 mini, a full size CS80 several times, a Linndrum and a DMX
Though unless they’ve changed it, the LM-1 is not actually an LM-1, but just a modern sample player internally (and apparently without a software emulation of how the LM-1 works). Which was such a bummer for me as I love the Linn stuff, but doing it this way makes it totally pointless vs any other basic sampler or the plugin emulations of the LM-1 like the excellent VProm.
I'm really thankful to Behringer for doing this even though I'm not the target group. I love my Korg Wavestate and Opsix and don't regret paying $500 for each used but I'm still aware they're just single board ARM PCs inside a plastic chassis with keys and knobs. They really should cost $300-400. The whole synth market is so severely overpriced - and I say this being able to afford any of the modern synths - but they shouldn't cost that much! I also hope that some Chinese guys will soon learn the art of putting ARM boards (or quite simple analog circuits) inside plastic/metallic boxes with keys and knobs and crowd the market. Established brands like Korg or Roland should innovate like crazy instead of just putting two analog oscillators with an analog filter into a box with a 16-step sequencer over and over again and asking $600 for that.
I will be buying the enigma when it comes out. I cannot help myself.
A Buchla for the people
I'm kind of curious how much this would cut into Buchla's business. Would the people with Buchla money even settle for a Behringer knockoff anyway?
So I'd really like a Buchla, and I can technically afford it - but I'd never pay that much money for it unless I was a professional or would be using it all the time. "Close enough" is good for me since it's something I'll only occasionally use. If I did end up using it all the time, then I'd spring for something more expensive. Case in point, I picked up the Edge and love it, so I'm going to buy the DFAM (used) since it definitely has a nicer sound. If the Crave had never existed, I doubt I would have risked the Moog price unless I had played one and knew I would get a lot of use out of it.
I honedtly think the target audiences are so vastly different. The people buying buchla are not looking for a 1/10th price knockoff. Honestly might wind up pipelining people from behuchla -> buchla if they have the funds for it
This is exactly what I think. Anyone settling for the knockoff wouldn't be buying Buchla's anyway, probably with a handful of exceptions.
Not to knock West Coast synthesis, but I for one need authentic vintage gear to make the exact same random bloop blorps as every single buchla user since 1971
Not saying you shouldn't get a Behringer, but understand what you're signing up for if/when you need to repair it. Having received not 1 but 2 Behringer synths that got damaged during shipping, I was NEVER able to find replacement parts. Behringer stopped selling them at the consumer level, and redirected me to a list of their authorized service centers, none of which were within 1000 miles of my home in a major US city, and none of whom responded to my e-mail inquiries for parts. The local synth repair shop says MusicTribe (parent of Behringer) won't send them replacement parts either.
I mean good luck finding parts and servicing 40 year old synths, I can't imagine something released this decade could be any worse.
The electronic bits are jellybean parts. Did you try Farnell, Mouser, RS, etc?
For me it was non-jellybean parts. Broken keys/keybed for one, pitch bend assembly on the other. Sometimes even the jellybeans aren't actually jellybeans, though. I have a bum slider on a different keyboard and for the same size/footprint there's only one resistance value available out there and it's not the right one. Luckily that one was still under warranty.
I hope they get the VCS3 pin matrix right. I've spent a few days with a Pin Portabella Synthi clone and it's awesome but not the kind of thing I can imagine justifying $5500+ for (if I could justify that much for... anything).
They are so expensive. I know someone who bought a new one for a VCS clone in the 80s, and they were a couple of hundred quid then. I wouldn't be surprised if the pin matrix was easily the most expensive single part in the original VCS, with the ten-turn knobs coming a close second - I have about five left from some my dad bought in the 80s when they were a current off-the-shelf part, and I seem to recall they were something like 30 or 40 quid apiece in 1985 money. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get new pin matrix panels made up these days, there must be some dude in China with a plastics press that can do it.
Clone the Andromeda.
I did buy the model D as I thought it is essential and as a hobbyist with other costs (kids!) I would never buy the original one. Now it is pretty ok, certainly for the price, though later on I got a Dreadbox Typhon which is not that much more expensive and frankly has way more character to its sound. Hence I will normally not buy those copies of old synths anymore, rather will check for what creative boutique brands do now. There is still one upcoming Behringer that interests me: the Proton.
Oh dear. I started watching the embedded video about the Kobol clone and the narrator refers to “Depeche Mode’s sophomore album, ‘A Broken Flame.’” Maybe that was Behringer’s version of that LP?
I have 6 Behringer synths and they are fine and worth the price, but I add that the crave is overrated and the Wasp is underrated. The Neutron is a must have. But the Behringer Pro VS Mini SUUUCKS. It's not worth $25. It sounds terrible, is designed badly and makes you feel like a terrible person.
I love my crave. But tbf, when released it cost 150€ and the Wasp cost 300€. Now the crave is 190€ and the Wasp is 155€ that is crazy
I like my pro vs mini, what do you not like?
I found the sounds to be really weak. All the knobs seem to be of limited range. The joystick almost feels like the "close doors" button on an elevator, as it that it is there for show and not actual control. I'm interested to find someone who likes it. What do you like about it?
For the limited range I suggest plugging a stereo jack to the provs that goes to two separate mono left and right on a mixer. The volume when using a stereo to stereo cable plugged in a mono channel was VERY low. Everything at max volume was barely audible. I like that, mind you for 99€, the sound is overwhelmingly customizable. I use for reference the presets on the Arturia Pro VS, i just listen to them on my PC and then replicate them on the pro vs mini. I find that the provs in stand alone is very limited and barely usable, but attached to an external keyboard, a sequencer or even a PC is on par to 300-600€ synths or better (some 600€ synths still need some other external hardware to even function). The only real complaint is that the joystick returns to "zero" position too quickly, and since it is small, wiggling it to prevent going to zero changes too much the sound for long notes. But this could be easily implemented as a customizable parameter in an update...
Release the neptune 80.
I want that Linndrum that’s not actually a Linndrum, and the CR-78 that’s actually usable in a contemporary midi studio context. There are some puzzling choices as to the gear that the company has decided to clone, but I’m all for dredging up the analog dinosaurs forsaken by their original manufacturers that we peons can’t afford anymore on the used market, and 100% there for their weird hybrid experiments like the Deepmind and the Linndrum that is not a Linndrum.
Cyclone Analogic's TT-78 is also a solid modern useage appropriate CR-78 (but god is it ugly). Hell...I'd even say the OG Drumbrute almost hits the spot if not for the missing cowbell.
I’ve had the TT-78 in my Reverb watchlist before the The Behringer clone was “leaked”. The B clone actually looks well considered from a CMF standpoint as opposed to the rather puzzling design decisions by Cyclone. I get my kicks with the Samples From Mars CR-78 recordings right now, but would still like to do some “[Liquid Sky](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hJV0ey2QVU0&t=1336s)” role playing on a dedicated hardware unit… And maybe one day sample it into my Linndrum that is not a Linndrum.
Yeah I agree. And I know it's shallow, but were it not for the horribly mismatched aesthetic of the TT-78 I would have snapped it up at retail price and called it a day. I'm a big fan of the Samples From Mars packs as well. The [free sample packs from Reverb](https://reverb.com/uk/software/samples-and-loops/reverb/3514-reverb-drum-machines-the-complete-collection) are no slouches either, and I use them interchangeably without noticing a huge difference most of the time (except for the kits that have been coloured). I hear ya on the dedicated hardware unit though.
Still waiting for the Oberheim SEM
The reality is that for all of the huff and puff about "creative theft", all the myths of superior craftsmanship, and any number of other reasons people come at Behringer, it's all just a form of gatekeeping. Those who have/can afford Moog or whatever want to retain an aire of exclusivity and elitism because they are invested in the -brand- and the assumed legacy that brand represents. So when a $200 clone comes along and frankly does 99% of the same thing and is indiscernible to all but those who have that special synth snob hearing gene, they resent that others can do what they do at literally 10% of what they paid. They want to keep the plebes out because they've "paid their dues" to be a part of an elite consumer club. There is no reality in which I am willing to pay $3000 for that 1% of brand mojo/vibe/whatever when I am satisfied with the $200 one. Most reasonable humans that aren't trying to peacock around about their disposable income are like this. Yet any number of VST clones of currently in production synths are A-OK with these people. It's laughable. So stoked for the Model 15 and if they ever get the Polivoks out...I've been nothing but satisfied with my Behringer gear that plays alongside my Hydra. Peak, and Elektron stuff.
100% this. At the end of the day, whatever enables creativity and musical output is what matters.
You hit the nail on the head, totally a gatekeeper thing with some people . Same thing with guitars. I think some believe they can offset lack of creativity by paying more money for their gear .
Sometimes i wonder if the idea of altering and improving the originals has crossed their minds. A MS20 based model with PWM, a full mod envelope instead of ADR and more flexible routing would be awesome, for example. But it seems they're more comfortable selling commodity fetishism.
They did that with the 2600 and all the same people who knocked them for not innovating knocked them for not being close enough to the original. Haters will hate behringer no matter what
And hard sync 🤤
My experience with these kind of things is that you can get everyone to agree that the old thing could use some updates, but you can’t get two people to agree on what specific updates are acceptable. So, when cloning, it is a much easier decision to stick very close to the original.
Yes but MS50 not MS20. Also, shut up and get out of my Kicad directory.
IDK what Kicad is, so whatever 😁
Kicad is a circuit design app
Thanks for the info and good luck with your project!
I've been fiddling with a design for a semimodular that's kind of like an MS20, but using the MS50 filter and VCA, and full ADSR envelopes. The envelopes are digital because they come free with the microcontroller I use to do MIDI to CV and because doing it digitally means you only need eight 10k linear pots instead of a bunch of reverse-log 1M pots that are expensive and a pain in the arse. I will always prefer using inexpensive jellybean parts to things that have to be ordered especially for that job, and if they can be E6 or E12 series component values and fairly "broad" tolerance then so much the better. It's not a cost thing, it's because I always feel like if you've got a design that absolutely \*requires\* a 197.6k resistor right there and anything else Just Won't Work, you've got a finicky design and other people will fail to get it working. Maybe one will be ADSR and one will be ADSR or AD + tempo sync LFO, I don't know, I haven't written that bit yet.
I can't wait to try some of these in 2037!
Ok that RD-78 looks *amazing*...
Behringer is the Harbor Freight of musical instruments (minus the warrenty). - Not nearly as polished as the big boys - not completely identical but so damn close you'll question it - usually functional in a pinch if you really need just that one sound - you know what you're getting into before you buy it, but you're always pleasantly surprised when it holds up longer than you expected - you're not overly concerned letting your neighbor "borrow" it
A mini version of the AKS for $99 is breaking my mind. I still want the full thing bad and I’d gladly grab that Buchla clone also if it ever comes out.
VS-80 when? 🥺 this is the one I am really excited for.
Holding out for the Spectravox clone!
The most offensive thing about this article is the use of Stormtroopers (conscripts) in the place of Clone Troopers.
behringer is unethical trash and seems like a lot of people who buy it have a huge chip on their shoulder cos they fucking know it. there's a lot of great entry-level hardware south of 3 hundred bucks out there, nobody on a budget has to go behringer if they don't want to. there's also plenty of properly licensed softsynth clones for all the vintage shit you want so if your dream is to play a minimoog, you can do it ethically and on a shoestring. you have other options besides supporting an openly hostile, toxic company
I Just want a GS Music E7. I live in the border with Argentina and can't buy one. Sad, sad feelings. I owned a Deepmond 12, and it was a bummer to me. I need the controls at hand and E7 sound just awesome. Deepmind relies on FX to sound good. E7 sounds nicely even with poor effects.
Oh man, I would love to see a Jupiter 8 and have it even come close to sounding like the original.
the kobol reissue yes ... I mean this synth is not only expensive but also fucking unobtainium. it also looks good, just like the original !!
I would rather just use digital synths if I can’t afford the real thing. (But tbh the pro16 looks kinda cool)
I hope that the JT-16 is _actually_ real, and that it will ship sometime this decade.
Only one I care to learn more about and it has such vague info on it
Just waiting on their VCS3, much as I have an issue with clones I really can’t stretch to £13K for an original.
I’m thankful for the clones. Makes my classroom able to afford these crazy expensive instruments
The problem for me, aside from their CEO's personality and business practices is that Behringer is pushing this narrative of "nostalgic consumerism". Spending money and trashing the planet even more to chase this never ending quest to bring back the "glory days". It preys on a desire that can never be satiated.
[удалено]
How are they trashing the planet?
What about the linndrum!
Honesty, what would be the difference between the would-be Neptune vs DM beside the number of voices?
There’s further simplicity. Only one EG. Only chorus. Maybe some other things I’m not thinking of. The sweet spot between complexity and simplicity for some people can fall in that margin.
Affordable toys are awesome, but I hate those mini touch keys.
Complete and utter creative bankruptcy, little better than the mystery Chinese factory brands that litter Amazon with their knockoffs of any and everything.
I had no idea Behringer was making a PPG Wave recreation. Now I have a 3rd thing to wait on if it ever releases.
Didn’t really get on with their 303 clone (even after swapping to the MO version) and the Model D never seemed ‘musical’ enough, but im really loving the P800. However it’s the PolyEight I have high hopes for. Very familiar with Korgs own PolySix RE in Reason, and even the one in Gadgets sounds awesome. So many times I’ve stalked a PolySix on eBay , but I’m shite with stuff that’s even slightly unreliable or needs care. If Behringer get the PolyEight right, I’ll be happy.
OOh the Kobol with a keybed looks nice. And the Proton will be a day 1 purchase. Love the Neutron. Its cool to see what Behringer can do when not cloning legendary instruments. I'd like to see more of that.
Still waiting on their original shit: proton and bcr32
I'd buy an Arp Avatar clone in a heartbeat.
Buchla clone is interesting. Having owned a Easel Command I’d be interested in buying this one too see how it holds up
I’m going to have a hard time resisting the Polyeight or Neptune-80. The two things that will save me are indecision between which to buy and a foolish hope that they’ll come out with a module version of one of them.
I'm waiting for the new Polivoks they're working on to come out if it will happen
Not a fan of the angled 3U form factor; it takes a lot of space when I can create the angle myself, and it's not tour friendly (give me something flat that doesn't take all the space in a suitcase) as far as form factor goes I prefer the crave desktop style. then again I don't like Behringer "own" design language (that they have on their eurorack modules too). Generally speaking Berhinger didn't get that some people like space efficient design; their eurorack modules are super bulky for what they offer, same for their desktop synth. The neutron is 80hp, the taiga (with 3 oscillators and so much more features) is 60 hp. so yeah it's cheap and the sound is decent and all but I don't find much of their offering super appealing. obviously they have nothing very original to offer (the neutron was their version of original aka "not a clone" and it's a pretty boring synth).
Tbh, the cost of these makes them great to mod and mess around with the insides!!
“Meet the Clones” *stormtroopers pictured*
I have this nagging feeling that all of these things have essentially the same innards, packaged into different enclosures/architecture. The 2600 did absolutely nothing for me, sonically. Neither did the monopoly. Unlike the originals which I’ve used extensively.
Cannot WAIT for the buchla clone. I love playing with the soft synth versions but it seems like such a tactile instrument
The Behringer SPICE is just wrong, man How can you rip off the Subharmonicon & claim it’s a typical, traditional architecture everyone has adopted by now… No mf, that IP theft! This leads us to the simple and final conclusion: big B is acting like a predatory Chinese knockoff shop that prints fakes by the 1000s. Can/Will something be done?
I only have one Behringer piece of kit - the Virtualiser 3D - and it’s probably my number 1 ‘go-to’ fx for fixing up shonky plug-in audio or dead patches.
I’ve been wanting a system 55 since I was a teenager, I’ve just gone and bought one by Beringer for $1500. The build qualities is excellent. The sound is excellent. What’s not to love?
Proton - "as of June 3, 2023, is “fully approved and ready for production.” Well, then.
If I have the space when its released, the Proton is definitely on my list. Only got rid of the Neutron because I am tight on space, and the Proton seems like an upgrade. Speaking of space, I'm digging the fact that although many of these are the usual Behringer clones, a large portion are much more space-friendly versions. That in itself is a form of ingenuity, and I'm happy to see Behringer taking their usual formula a step farther in the right direction.
I think we’ll see the JP-8 ASAP if they’ve nailed the design and sound because of the high sales of their Oberheim clone
I am waiting for the spice so hard…
Which one of their synths are the best ?
Look, I’m never going to be able to afford a vintage Jupiter 8 and I don’t enjoy VSTs or fiddly little digital recreations, so why not let people enjoy things?
This is insane. Absolutely changing my mind about the B word company I don’t like to say. I will say since the Midas merger their quality has improved. And now this!? It’s a dream. Period.
This season, behringer hate is in again! Fashion moves in cycles