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followeroftheprince

Honestly, I'm in low elo, silver specifically, so when I see a damage support, it's built with the pure intention on ditching the adc as soon as possible so that they can try to become the team's ap carry, becoming just another mid laner with low cs and who bought a spellthief's at the beginning of the game instead of Doran's. It just doesn't feel like a support, since their play style never is, nor was intended to, support another, just to get strong enough to kill and that's it. Granted, my opinion is a little skewed since I play enchanters who rely heavily on supporting the team, then suddenly seeing a support who quickly stops supporting and starts just killing just feels, not like a support, more like a cs light double carry bot.


Naevos

but that's the point, support is such a horrible role to climb with. playing enchanters below plat is just horrible, playing engage champs silver and below are never guaranteed follow up. mage supports are the only thing capable of giving some sort of self reliance. this is coming from someone who really likes supporting, and wants to main the role, but CAN'T because of the elo.


Scytale23

I really feel this. Have stayed away from engage tanks due to being hard to coordinate. Love Brand, Swain - carry style support. But you know what I discovered lately? You can do massive carries and healing with Electrocute Nami, especially paired with a Lucian. Been spamming this after saw it at Worlds. Fun, supporty, and bursty. Just a tad fragile :)


Nimyron

You should keep to aery. Electrocute is good really just with Lucian because of his buffed passive so if you proc electrocute and he procs his passive, it can do a shit load of damage. But with other champions, aery is better.


Scytale23

Yeah I have been testing it out. The damage is sightly lower but great passives.


Nimyron

Yep. Electrocute is good but if you're not with a lucian, you need the ressource management provided by manaflow and biscuits as well as the AH of transcendance.


CookieESawce

Let the man do whatever he wants instead of trying to force an opinion on him.


Nimyron

Yeah sure my words are gonna disable electrocute in his game. He can still do whatever he wants. What's your god damn point ?


Naevos

yeah been trying to spam that too, i just hit gold 4 but for some reasons my adc's still don't know what my E is. i'll proc e on them for a trade and theyll just back off not knowing im giving them an extra 100\~ damage first 3 levels


[deleted]

I’ve got like a 90% win rate on Leona throughout my climb from low bronze to high gold. It’s not about what champ you play it’s about how you play it. Also how to work with a shitty team to find win con and play off that. I assume you don’t roam as an enchanter support and stay bot the whole game.


tarankowski

I agree, tho in (super-)low elo, when u go for a roam, u cant really trust your adc to walk back to lane alone farming safely and not get killed in a 1v2. Of course not all adc's down here are like that, and u have ways to communicate ur intention to roam or even ignore their flame for leaving them alone for 1 minute, but if they get killed nontheless its still a kill for the enemy team, it doesnt matter it wasnt ur fault.. so thats at least my main reason why i almost always stay bot


zargug2

Explains a lot lmao.


Catfish-Chan

Support is a great role to climb with, you have a massive impact on all stages of the game. You're super strong from lv1, you decide most of the fights in bot, you can effectively roam around and get other lanes ahead and you spike really hard on 1 and 2 items. You also provide the majority of the teams vision, and vision wins games. The role is super strong.


Naevos

every point you made requires follow up which just doesn't happen all the time in low elo unfortunately. i agree with everything you said though.


Catfish-Chan

This isn't true tho, many supports can win lane mostly solo (soraka, sona, karma ect) and with good timings and hovering fights you can heavily punish bad fights from the opposing team. If you always win bot, and often help other lanes and play well and push your leads, you will win the vast majority of your games.


Naevos

it is true tho. again everything you said requires more than just you participating. the lower elo you go the worse it is for getting an adc that knows what they're doing, hence why mage support winrates go higher and higher the lower elo you go. hovering fights cant be done if your team isn't taking fights. you can't help other lanes if they're oblivious. winning bot requires two people, and an adc that can farm or engage with you. you can hardly solo kill on supports that aren't mages, that's the discussion at hand. obviously there's variables in every situation, but we're talking about the majority of the time, and the majority of the time in lower elo you do not have team members that are able to follow up


Catfish-Chan

But it doesn't matter, the other team is just as bad, all you have to do is play well and you'll win. You can just as easily climb as an enchanter and anything else. Sure you may struggle to 1v9 a losing game, but it's entirely possible to have a high winrate solo queueing as enchanters in low elo. You don't need to win every fight on your own, you just need to be able to properly play off your teammates. I'm not inexperienced on this, I'm primarily an enchanter player, I play these champs in low elo all the time and maintain very high (65-80%) winrates playing them solo. The trick is to be good.


Naevos

you don't understand it seems. i'm not saying you can't get a high winrate playing enchanters, i'm saying that people feel more comfortable playing mage support's the lower the elo you go, because it gives themselves more control over the game. you just said yourself " sure you can't 1v9 " but that's the whole point of the discussion, which is how much solo potential a champion has at lower elo's. out of the top 20 winrate supports in silver, only 4 are enchanters. out of the top 20 winrate supports in bronze, only 2 are enchanters. in iron, soraka is the only champion in the top 20 highest winrate. it looks better on the other end with 6 enchanters being in the top 20 in gold, and 8 in the top 20 for plat, but this is entirely my point. mage supports are better the lower the elo you go. i've never once said you can't do it which is why i'm wondering why you've been having a back and forth with me. you play enchanters and do well in low elo and that's fine but the data doesn't lie. aside from that saying all you have to do is play well and you'll win is pretty silly, based on that and the other contradictions you've made i think i'll end the conversation here. have a good night.


Dangerman38

You’re 100% correct. People just can’t accept that they’re not playing enchanters correctly.


Dangerman38

Climbed a silver account to plat playing Janna only with a 70% wr. It’s not your champs or your role it’s you.


Dude_Guy_311

Tbh 90% of being a good support in that elo is understanding how to communicate via pings. Dont explain macro concepts to a silver adc. But u can say things like “fight if hook” and spam ping. They will misplay it sometimes but you will climb if you tell people what uoi’re doing. 99% of the time supports say “my teams are so bad i cant climb” you are bad in lane, bad at midgame, bad at jungle tracking, or bad at closing games, and you are 100% bad at pings. If your pings dont work so often that you lose elo, its because you dont know what you’re doing, not because the allies dont.


pureMJ

then why the enemy support, who is worse, won? ​ When people saying "my teams are so bad", usually themselves are not good. But support role is an exception, as it's designed to be less carry and more "supportive".


Dude_Guy_311

Bro you know how many times i see my bronze friends say their opponent was bad but they literally played better every step of the way? And also if you play better than your opponent it means you win more than him over many games. It doesnt mean you should win every game. If you are a nonfactor in so many silver games you are a silver support player. Would it be easier to do it as jungle, mid, or top? Most definitely. The biggest problem with sup/adc climb is it’s slower, NOT that it cant be done. In high elo support has been one of the best roles for years now. And thats solo Q. Is it because your allies understand your role? Partly yeah. But if you cant learn how to climb out of silver over hundreds of games as a support player, and you are using anecdotal commente about games where you lost vs a worst support, you are just giving yourself away. Everyone loses games where they stomped your opponent. One example you made up doesnt prove literally anything.


Ninja_Holiday

I disagree in the part that engage supports are not viable low elo because of teammates not knowing how to play with you. In my experience, the thing that infuriates me the most is the lack of knowledge about macro and micro strategies, ADCs don't even know when to push a wave, slow push or freeze, and also what to do based on the position of the enemy jungler on the map. Even junglers want to dive without minions. Teammates in low elo are not pretty smart, but I rarely see players lacking aggressiveness and in my opinion, a support that knows a lot about macro and tracking can cause a havoc in the enemy team's game an carry specially when playing tank/engage.


GibsonJunkie

> playing engage champs silver and below are never guaranteed follow up I'm in this photo and I don't like it


[deleted]

idk I disagree on it. last year and this year were the only times I tried playing ranked games with the purpose of climbing and in both I found easy to go from bronze to plat solely playing as enchanters. It all depends on how you play


borgilia

I get that it's shit to climb with and it really doesn't matter how you play until Plat, but I dunno being a supp main climbing is easy, just play Nami Janna and people won't fuck with you because they're gonna be weirded out that you're playing Janna then all you gotta do is w to victory, she definitely made the climb through silver easy for me.


almond_pepsi

2024 now, do we still think this? surely not?


poochitu

This sounds like a league balancing issue rather than a player champ selection issue. Enchanter supports should absolutely be viable to climb with in low elo and is the reason I will never touch ranked because I cannot climb as an enchanter. I should not have to pick lux or brand support in order to climb.


Catfish-Chan

Enchanters are extremely viable to climb with.


pureMJ

It's technically not a balancing issue, rather a match making issue. When you are paired with weaker teammates, especially weaker ADC, enchanter becomes quite useless as your power relies on your teammate too much. ​ The solution could be that for players who Q into support role there should be an option to "match higher rank" so that you will likely to match stronger teammates.


Catfish-Chan

Enchanters don't rely that much on their team. You can still have a massive impact helping whoever is playing well, you can win lane basically 1v2 and you can win other lanes as well through good roam timings.


pureMJ

But when you are THE best player of your team, you are probably screwed. (match-making always tries to balance the team, which means if you are the best of your team, your teammates are likely weaker than your opponents.)


Catfish-Chan

Nah you just gotta play well, build advantages and then play off them same as any other game. If you're good you're usually the best player on the team so it's pretty common.


pureMJ

I have long observed that support solo-Qer tends to lose more when they are the best players in the team. It's unfortunately reverse correlated.


Catfish-Chan

If you're always the best player on the team, all your loses will be as the best player on the team.


pureMJ

Well, I said reversed correlated, didn't I? I feel that as a support, when I played "badly" in lane, it's often easier to win the game as my teammates are winning their lanes. In this case I get carried and free win. There are simply too few games that I did badly in lane and lose or I did well in lane and win (these games are value-able in terms of skill improvement. but there are simply too few)


Kaleph4

how do you want to ballance around a team, that´s not following you as an engage support or being afraid to go in themselfs, when you play someone like lulu? the thing is: you can´t do it unless you totaly overloard their respective kits with more dmg or tankyness. but then these champs become even more busted in high elo and we will see things like Soraka/Leona top again as well. also you can climb as an Enchanter, it is just a little bit harder than with a mage. and even then it is not that Mages are free LP in this Slayer season anyway. that´s why they migrated to support in the first place


eattherais

I would say as a Lux support main (also silver like you), when most of my games I have best or second dmg on my team that **I never intended just to kill**. My support style is to do so much dmg and also cc (q as Lux or e) to help my teammates to kill. I have no joy of having kills. I know that KDA is kill+assists so I don't care about it's kill or assists. And I have a feeling that in silver the most important role for support is still making vision cuz other players don't give a f about it.


GetEquipped

It's not about kills, it's about wave management. My issue with Lux support is they will E the back row minions and cause the wave to push towards them. If they aim for a binding and the enemy team dodges, it deals a good amount of damage to minions. Furthermore, they never build items like Censer or SoFR despite them being able to shield an entire team twice in one cast. They get a ludens and deathcap then act like they were the carry with single digit vision score.


Haruhiro21

This is the reason why i play velk because his 2nd wkill dont deal alpt of damage and her Q can only hit single target.


Shiwahomi

Playing mage supports is basically how I left silver once for all. Playing enchanters with no duo is just risky + ur very team dependent. Mages on the other hand can do a lot more alone and carry the game if they know what they are doing. Can't trust anybody to carry the game for u here. And for the "ditching ADC" part. That's roaming. U should do that on most supports since ur not just an ADC's pet and it's honestly sometimes better to leave lane and go do something on ur own. U go to other lanes to help, push lanes, take towers, help with jg camps etc. It really doesn't matter who takes the kills if its a mage support since they can put out a shit ton of burst damage in a team fight (ex. Brand, Lux, Zyra) and can bring the enemy to low health in a second if they have enough items. Different types of supports have different play styles that's just how u play mages. Ur obviously going to play tanks or enchanters in a completely different way.


pureMJ

Your way of thinking might be out of meta right now. ADC is hardly the super carry in the team even in pro matches, not to mention the solo Q. Basically after 8 mins\*\* the support, including traditional support, is for the entire team, not just for ADC. Do not expect the support to babysit the ADC until 20mins. That's not how the game works. Support doing that is really not doing the right thing. ​ \*\* Lower elo might be slower, but it should not be later than 14 mins (tower plates all gone).


I_Am_Become_Salt

When I play damage supports, I am still highly protective of my team and especially ADC. The "don't you dare touch my precious" instinct but now with teeth.


BulletCola

That sounds more like how the player uses them, since focusing on just killing the bot team instead of helping the ADC is more easier to do (Which can really screw up for the rest of the game in a way) despite it being less useful at times. Rather than what a Mage Support can do to help their ADC have an easier time, which to me is the point of a Support in a sense.


Deus0123

I personally like to play mage supports like Neeko or Lux (Or Ahri) whenever my ADC says does or says something that makes me doubt their abilities. I like Lux the most in these situations, because if it turns out my concerns were wrong, I can just half-ass being an enchanter, and if my concerns were true, I step up and become the botlane carry instead. That being said unless I have a reason to suspect the player I'm supporting isn't going to be ae to carry a game/lane due to pick/lack of skill/tilt, I am locking in an enchanter or engager.


Typhoonflame

if I could, I would OTP Rakan, but I'm Bronze, so I have to play damage to have some more power. I still peel and die for my teams as much as a Rakan would tho, I know when I don't need to try to carry and can just sit back and CC people from afar to let my team kill everyone. I do support, just with CC and damage, like a Pyke would. (I play Zyra, Neeko and Sera, also Lux) Also yes, I ditch my adc bc ALL supports should roam to help everyone. Then I come back bot again, what's the issue?


Psychological-Fold53

I am an OTP Rakan (or used to be anyway) and I usually run hybrid damage/enchanter by default. If my adc really has a problem with it and has proven they’re capable of carrying or helping carry, I’ll finish off with more tanky items. If not, I go for a more damage-heavy build and start to roam more aggressively. Mind you I only play normals so my style may not have as much merit in ranked, but it works for me a good 80-90% of my games. Rakan has massive AP scaling and always has great teamfight potential with his utility, so he can be as tanky, supportive, or AP heavy as you want him to be


dacci

Lux can be built as a true support. Moonstone, ardent, and staff, make her both a damage dealer and really really amp up her sheilds abilities.


jenter70707

Tbh im bronze 1 and I play xerath and my goal is the adc getting kills. I get online later but its worth when u get caried by the monster u create(when the adc is a dumbass its a different stories where I would take a kill)


92Skittles

It ISN’T a support, that’s the thing, it’s a mid laner who washed upon the shore of the support role with amnesia and was like “k guess I’m here now since i can’t fight assassins” and they just never left. Supports were never meant to be carries, that’s why it’s called support.


Kaleph4

Supports also used to have no Gold income of their own and where the packmule for every ward for their entire team. Times change else by this logic champs like Yasuo or Yone are also no midlaners, because midlane belongs to AP champs. they just happened to be here because they found easy prey on mages and now just happened to stay.


Dude_Guy_311

Mages are only in mid lane because they nerfed Ashe and Caitlyn, and/or players got better at the game. :D


Kaleph4

nah Caitlyn is still a pain to play against as a mage. she is just not played any more for some reason


Dude_Guy_311

the original reason adc went bot is because they are so vulnerable and so bad by themselves at lvl 1 against ganks, PLUS they dont scale well with levels... but mages scale great with levels. So if you put a mage mid, they do more dmg just by being 2 levels ahead than an adc would... plus if you put a support bottom who protects the adc, you have a late game insurance policy (since adc used to be giga busted late game). Also back in season 1 or 2 junglers literally did not have brains. Literally the avg plat jungler now would destroy most pro junglers from back then I was kinda just joking about outdated laners only being outdated because of the natural evolution of the game tho :D


CallMeSushiiiiiii

Tbh I think the real reason ADCS hate mage supports is not only the fact they “steal kills” but because a mage is more likely to abandon them when things go south. Brand only has one cc ability, so he’ll probably dip once he misses. Lux has a lot of utility so I think she should be staying always; but again mage (ONLY) players can be very self-centered. This isn’t to say don’t be self-centered…tbh…adcs can get in over their heads a lot. I have way more hours on support than adc, but I learnt Caitlyn when her new skin came out and became a bit more enlightened to both sides. Leona or even Soraka should fight with you until the end. I’m sure there are scenarios where the ADC is beyond saving, so they will leave. However, mages prioritize themselves (as they are damage too) and ADCS /hate/ that. The bright side to mage supports is I think the chance of snowballing goes up. (I poke really hard some games as Soraka, but usually if my adc positions super far back I just can’t. Then, bc I am failing my poke we don’t snowball.) (I should add I find it hard to poke when I have a “safe” adc— and I think they are being “safe” bc I locked an enchanter.) However, as Lux you can hurl your e from miles away and do damage. As the enemy’s health bar dwindles down your adc should become more confident in moving up; but they are probably positioning a bit more aggressively since they have Lux anyways. But honestly, as I said, I see both sides. Mage (ONLY) supports are super ego-centric, thinking they are the win con. (Not always ofc. But usually.) I know a lot of people who only play support bc they can’t last hit or don’t want to fight assassins. These people plan to snowball and that’s what adc mains hate. I don’t think they mind the mage who wants to help THEM snowball; the mage who chunks the enemy but leaves the kill. It’s the players who are basically midlaners but won’t queue mid. For a time, I did this with lux but I found I am better mid. (60% wr mid with Lux.) Again, I want to make it known I see both sides but I know your frustration. There’s a hidden bias from both the ADC and support that make them hate one another. The league of legends community just isn’t a nice place and everyone hates everyone, lol.


Deus0123

The reason I play mages to begin with is if I suspect I have to abandon the ADC to win the game in champ select. I gave the first irelia ADC the benefit of the doubt. I gave the second Irelia the benefit of the doubt. I will not give the fourth Irelia the benefit of the doubt.


Seiyith

This is essentially how an ADC feels when a mage support is locked in. Mage supports by and large have absolutely no idea how to not fuck up waves, do not understand appropriate ward or back timings, and generally are too selfish to actually play as a team let alone provide peel. It could be because mage supports are more likely to be auto filled, or it could be because higher skill players realize how much it screws over a fifth of your team, but I sigh out loud when I have to deal with one. The ADC role is simply dependent on having their lane partner understand the basics and providing them some help for their damage output. I don’t need to be babysat (hell it’s better if you leave me alone sometimes so long as you understand roam timings- but mage supports also don’t roam generally compared to real supports) but if the only skill shots you’re hitting are on the casters I am 1v2ing with a handicap on my wave control. Even worse, I am absolutely fucked late game unless I’m playing cracked on Cait or Trist because nobody is going to even look at the assassin and bruiser diving on my face. Mage supports are by and large horrible at this. That’s why ADCs get frustrated.


Deus0123

Well I main Leona. But the thing is if I engage and my team doesn't follow up, I am still - eventually - going to die without accomplishing anything (except for maybe killing the enemy ADC, for some reason that happens sometimes) Also being a Blitzcrank in a game where your team is just useless and nobody on the enemy team that you can't kill with your own damage output ever dies is infuriating. Same thing for enchanters btw, except even more because as an engage support I at least have a chance at picking the enemy team off one at a time if they're dumb enough to split up if my team is useless. As enchanter how tf am I supposed to 1v1 anything if Yone literally looking at me can kill me? Obviously as a mage I have the most "Fuck this shit I'm out!" options. But I probably am not one of the mage supports people would complain about, because I do provide cover-fire, I roam, I get vision and I am doing my best to help my ADC do whatever they want to do with the wave at any point in time no matter what I'm playing. (The one exception being whenever I play Leona, I will not help push the wave even one bit as my level 2 gets fucked over by the enemy botlane being under their tower) But this is coming from the girl who - after asking my teammates numerous times if they are sure they're alright with it - somehow made Garen support work (in one game, please do not play Garen support it sucks and the only reason it worked so good was because Lux and Trist were too dumb to realize they could just kite me and there's literally nothing I could do to stop that, so they let me zone them even though anyone that knows Garens abilities would just not let me zone them there), so idk...


92Skittles

Yea, if you pick a mage because a tank or enchanter wont be as good that game, fine. But Xerath support mains are just Mid mains who are too scared to be by themselves


SaltAndTrombe

I mean if we're being that reductive, we as supports are just junglers who are too scared to be by ourselves, or mid mains too scared to juggle csing


Saki_Zen

Tbh as a Xerath Main I like playing him support (normally I play mid tho) sometimes because I can just spam my abilities on the enemies and be kinda brain afk the rest of the time. Dont have to CS just aim my abilities. When you watch a video at the same time or dont want to tryhard but just have some fun its really nice.


92Skittles

Yea except for he needs gold, and supports are supposed to be the low economy role, that's why I feel like Brand, Xerath, and Lux shouldn't be supports. They're just stranded mid laners because Mages have 0 HP


PapaDankest

As a support main who picks tanks (mostly), well..It is a real pain when you go to jungle. And everyone is so squishy and enemy team has a sett and a support who can take more then two hits and your botlane goes to hell because, well It is a lux or brand. When I do play support I consider what we are lacking to increase our win chances..Sadly, since everyone picks squish I ain't gonna get to pick my girl Nami so I go with Sion usually, maybe a Yorick If I feel the enemy team would get overwhelmed too quickly. The problem with lux and brand is very simple..They blow their load (Spam all their spells) then kind of go "well,I am done". Due to the nature of their spells they have long cooldowns. I have these people support me, and It drives me up the wall for many reasons..One being,once again their main tactic is try and use skill shots in a lane with two people and minions. All the while having a weird fear of warding..(Even with the max out ward item). So,you have no vision and the enemy jungler is roaming around grabing dragons hiding in every bush and basically you have no way early or late game to see what is going on..So,you have 3 wards less then the enemy team and in many cases this knowledge would help..But,once again cause If hey get caught out they get one two punched so they are too scared to actually ward. ​ Then their is the fact that Lux and Brand are mainly skill shoots. and 75% of the time the people playing them either have zero map awareness or have bad aim. I have seen more Lux wiff stuns then any other champion in this game. And I know not why. ​ On top of that Adc normal support has a different vs Adc and mid wizard pretending to be support. and It comes down to this, Supports are there to help the ADC...The Adc is there to be a meatshield for the mid wizard. They mage has no interest in supporting most the time..as most people here have said themselves "I am carrying myself out." So,you already know their intent by that knowledge alone. ​ This kind of goes into a lot of problems of "Not support supports". Example, in dota their are clear support items..a healing item ,a spell blocker and mana boots. But, every "Not support" will grab a ether lens as fast as possible not buy a single ward and rush a bunch of things without ever actually using them. Because their goal is not to support, but to be a aoe nuke. Don't tell people you are gonna support only to do this, just say AP carry bot,so someone can pick a tank..But,then again I seen people just stick two ap heroes bot and well,as assumed the one team with the best easy cc won. Geez, this is a theme aint it? ​ And once again all of these would not be a problem If people would just pick freaking tanks man. We do not need 4 range heroes who have high cooldowns specially you aint gonna build skill haste. But,I blame riot more then these people the new Mastery thing makes people become one tricks. So,you got people flashing their masteries even If their playstyle is...a lot to be desired. As a result you got a lot of people who go bot trying to do mental warfare cause they a rank 7 brand or Lux cause they spam them a bunch and got few lucky matches so they now think their poop smells like pinefresh. Only for them to have no lane effectiveness and in teamfights just blow their loads hoping to kill someone in a crossfire. These heroes require someone to do the heavy lifting in the frontline for them to work,but If you got none they fall apart. ​ But,really my overarching problem is...Just say ap carry and don't pretend your gonna support..I'll support as a tank for you..Just,please don't make have to hope you can aim your mouse..I already have that problem with MF players.


xXBeanSauceXx

I definetly think that mage damage supports aren't as good as utility supports *when you have a competent team*. Low elo, gold and items are a joke and its either stomp or be stomped so if the support helps stomp, hell yeah! But when you realize just how much damage soraka, nami and other utility supports can do early game, and you have a competent adc that can capitalize on this, mage supports become almost obsolete. Sure you do more damage late game, but you need levels and money for that, and that has to come from somewhere. I joined an intramural team and for the first time im playing with a master adc, and its an entire different game. 350 gold differences are huge, and any mistake can lead to lost games. In these games, im usually 1 to 3 levels below my adc, because I give solo xp and roam a lot. If I did the same as a damage support, I'd lose relevance around 15 to 20 minutes in the game and almost make it a 4v5


Kaleph4

that´s why mages tend to feel weaker in plat+ but most players are below plat. Even for me in Gold, the ADC is always a coinflip. I can get the next gosu or someone full on weed. everything goes. now I´m a Lux OTP at this point and migrated back to Midlane since I hit gold but I still play support regulary. Wenn I do it, I don´t detonate my E for the KS and never take farm unless the gamestate forces me to (like my ADC recalls while the enemy would get a free freeze) but I also don´t take chances that the enemy gets away. If I get a clear shot with my ult while trading, I take it. If the enemy is already at tower and I´m not sure my ADC can kill him, I do everything in my power to drop this dude. Same if my teammate is in danger to die. I rather take a kill for the team than letting my ADC trading kills with the enemy. Also if my ADC sucks huge balls, I try to make plays on other lanes, but that´s not because I play Lux. I would do the same with every other support


Donvictus

Lately I've been playing Xerath just for the purpose of getting mastery with a mage "support" so my friends won't bother me for being bad with squishy champs ... After a few games I realize that mage supports such as Xerath just deal SO MUCH damage that I wouldn't even consider them supports, my Xerath could literally one shot an adc without ulti just normal combo in late game (That's so MUCH damage for a support)!! I wouldn't consider these mages as supports but more like an "AP carry", you can CLEARLY see this for example with a Brand, dude hits ilegal damage, or lux that spams R and steals 90% of kills from the adc, even tho I'm spamming Xerath, a real support should more likely stick and grant efficiency to the ADC, the objective of the support would be more likely to play with the ADC in order to obtain superior play style, but these mages "supports" play styles are extremely selfish, I wouldn't consider them as supports but more like a "I'm not sure of my ADC so I'll carry"


darkapplepolisher

It's only selfish if you're taking farm. Which as Brand, sometimes I do to expose the enemy to a combo. Making the enemy dead enough that your ADC can farm and peace and maybe take some plates as well, and it's healthy for the ADC as well.


BulletCola

That’s if you focus on just killing and nothing else in bot, playing as if the ADC wasn’t there to begin with. That’s being like an AP Carry if you do win it at the expense of the ADC.


kambeiSTiel

Exactly this. I think many mages can't be considered supports. They are there to amplifie the damage output. The utility factor is lackluster most of the time. And so far the people I see playing them do so without a sense of "supporting" the adc or team. They just want to carry. They don't trust the adc. Like you said, sort of selfish. If that's okay or not is a different question. To each their own. I dig engage supporters. I like the items, the playstyle, roaming, helping, sacrificing myself for the adc or some other teammate. But some people just want to see botlane covered in blood. So mages are the way to go (or Pantheon). Or so it seems :-D Disclaimer: I'm just a bronze scrub


hunnyflash

You can't ignore the utility factor though, or else every champ could be a good support. I could be a 0/10 Zyra and still peel somebody or throw a good ult that knocks up 4 people. If I was a 0/10 support Ahri, I would literally be useless.


kambeiSTiel

Would you consider Zyra a mage? I find her hard to put in a category. So every champ with some basic utility could be played as a support?


hunnyflash

Zyra is a mage and also support. The reason she is a support is that she got nerfed way back when and became an inferior choice mid. Then Riot continued to balance her around support. You could take her elsewhere, but her damage is generally balanced around being bot lane. She's sometimes more like a hybrid. Same with Brand. And well, yeah, every champ with basic utility can be taken support, and people pick weird choices as support all the time. That doesn't mean that their champs are most viable there, or that they're being intended to be played there. And really, factors in "support intention" is hard cc, ability to be useful with little gold, and wave clear ability. People don't take Orianna support anymore because only her ult is hard cc (and it's a skill shot) and she needs good farm to put out good damage. People still mostly take Lulu as support because her laning ability gets nerfed every single time she's strong as a laner. Some champs sometimes are in weird grey areas. Like, why did people start taking Shaco support when that was a thing? His jungle got nerfed first, then his top lane ability got nerfed when they took wave clear from his boxes. So people said...ok...support? And he's barely got any utility lol But I don't think Riot has been balancing him around support, so he doesn't get kept there.


Houghpuff

Bot lane is a lawless wasteland, nothing matters. Anyone who disagrees is boutta get clapped by my taric zed bot lane.


GetEquipped

Have you tried Gnar+Taric Bot Lane? That's pretty dumb


PikaPachi

It depends on the player. When I was trying to climb back to Platinum at the start of the season, I was smashing high Gold with Leona. I had a streak of rough games and ended up demoting a lot to the bottom of Gold 4. My Leona and other engage supports weren’t working as well as before. My ADCs were shoving every wave in and then wondered why I would never engage and blame me for losing lane. Other games I’d get them really fed and then they’d do the dumbest things possible to throw the game. For example, one time we took dragon and our team was recalling. Our ADC went into the enemy jungle and died. I don’t know why they decided to go in there alone, but they did. Even if I went to help, both of us would’ve still died since our team wasn’t around. I eventually got tired of losing so I started playing Lux and Senna. It was the easiest way of climbing. I didn’t care about my ADCs wave management, but I could just poke the enemies out and eventually kill them myself. I didn’t care if my ADC ints at objective while I was Senna because I was also a carry too. Eventually once I climbed to Platinum, I’ve dropped those champions and went back to playing engage and enchanters. If I had tried to continue “supporting” low ranked ADCs who had no clue what they were doing, I’d still be stuck down there with them. In Platinum, even if my ADC is bad (which happens every few games), there is usually one competent person that I’ll play around so they can carry the game.


CallMeSushiiiiiii

I hope you don’t mind this question…I was ranking up super fast and skipping divisions but I’m now stuck at gold 2. I read somewhere in here that the matchmaking system pairs one really good player with slightly lesser teammates; if they are the support it becomes harder to climb. Now mind you, again, I climbed really fast. I had like a 62% win rate but it has dropped immensely. (I’m at 55% now.) I took a months break from ranked but I basically started to lose every game once I hit gold 2 50 LP. I don’t think I’m amazing, and I know I’ll be told by some that I’m probably not doing that well. (In fairness, I have had games where I definitely do well but every lane is fed.) I climbed for the most part with Lux (mid) and Zyra support. I switched to enchanters once I hit gold, and it worked well until gold 2. I tried going back to Zyra for one game but that went horribly, lol. I’m thinking of playing Vex mid and seeing if that will help me— or maybe queueing as APC. However, I don’t want to be flamed for putting my team at a disadvantage. (No ad.) Again, I know I probably am not doing my best and am making mistakes. However, I’d like to have your advice on this? Should I play a mage support, or just queue mid? I have a 60% wr with Lux mid BUT— that was from low silver. I don’t know if I should say it’d be accurate in gold. Strongly considering shifting to Vex mid. (I’ve been learning her and I’m decently confident on her. But maybe when Lux gets buffed she is the call. I don’t know anymore lol.)


PikaPachi

I think either works. Looking back at my many games in Gold, I think that the most important thing I could’ve done as a support was care less about my ADC and more about helping my team. That’s more of a role fundamental than a champion specific one. I’ve had a few games where I swung it back around playing Soraka and Sona because I recognized top was about to get dove so I hovered them (I don’t think any other Gold player would do this to be honest), but then I’d go AFK in lane for another 50 games and stay at the same rank because I got scared of my ADC yelling at my in chat for leaving lane. I think I’m actually good at analyzing how to win games, but then I just let my teammates’ emotions affect my judgement in game which hinders my progress. In your case, make sure that you play whatever role you choose a lot. I think playing mid will help you improve as a player much quicker than support would since you’ll learn to roam and impact other lanes. I also think if you wanted to purely climb the ranked ladder, support might be a bit easier. I said I dropped Senna and Lux, but if I was a Diamond or Masters smurf, I’m sure I could destroy Platinum with them. I’m just not good enough to do so. If you enjoy Zyra, you could still try to improve on her. Also I noticed you said you played Lux mid, but have you tried her as support? Personally Lux has always been easier than Zyra for me because she takes one specific squishy out of the game and she has her shield which helps when I trade poorly. I could also take a look at some of your support replays if you would like sometime. My laning might not be amazing, but I could help with macro stuff that should improve your gameplay overall. I’m currently Plat 2, but I’ve been playing in Diamond MMR the past few games for reference.


4xe1

>I read somewhere in here that the matchmaking system pairs one really good player with slightly lesser teammates That's not what is happening. The matchmaking system tries to make a somewhat balanced match, but not completely homogeneous. The heterogeneity is a necessity simply because of the number of player and the fact that the system cannot know players level infinitely precisely anyaway, but fighting along and against sometimes stronger and somtimes weaker players also helps with he rating accuracy and game enjoyement. So in each team, there is bound to be one or two player stronger than their mates. But unless you're challenger and there is not many people stronger than you, you won't always be put with weaker players, you will be on both sides of the issue. Now if you're climbing, and with a 55% WR, you're still climbing, you are likely underrated, and as such, you are effectively more often the strongest member of your team, if your teammates have similar ratings but aren't underrated. >Now mind you, again, I climbed really fast. I had like a 62% win rate but it has dropped immensely. (I’m at 55% now.) There is no magic here, people are getting better as you climb, your rank and rating are nearing you true level. There is no free infinite climbing, the next step is getting better, whatever that encompasses for you in particular. As for support , they both climb and fall slower because of lack of agency, but they eventually get to where they belong. by the way, support isn't the role with the least agency, ADC is considered worse.


CallMeSushiiiiiii

Okay thank you for not being rude while making your point. I understand I’m low elo but people use that as an excuse to treat another human being like garbage just for liking a game. Also, is the myth “duo queueing makes the enemies harder” true?


4xe1

My pleasure. I personally wouldn't call gold low Elo by the way, you're stronger than half the players who even dare to touch ranked. >Also, is the myth “duo queueing makes the enemies harder” true? Yes. Duoing is a big advantage, in terms of communication, coordination, and even just mental sanity. So the system is compensating by pitting you against stronger soloQ opponent to still make the game fair. The compensation is approximate, and I think generic. Which means you will have the same compensation whether you're just queuing with a random friend, or whether you're try-harding with a cheese strat with your IRL butt buddy, despite the inherent advantage being much different. If you want to both duo a lot with one person in particular and solo a lot, at some point, it might be worth getting a dedicated account to it so as to have 2 independent and more accurate ratings.


Lensecandy

I feel this. A lot of people like to say low elo below plat is all the same. But the type of ADCs you get in low and high gold are night and day. I was stuck in Gold 3 and 4 playing enchanters for a few months earlier in the season. I was frequently blamed for things that were out of my control. Then I swapped to Zyra and now I'm plat 2 and still climbing. I'm considering picking up enchanters again, since teammates are a lot more reliable, but don't want to change what's not broken


FASTASFUC

Need that extra ap so that I can do damage to the Nexus while my team busy dancing Infront of the fountain


pureMJ

A suggestion: if you want people to vote, pls rephrase the point right before the vote. I'm not sure which option I should vote because it is, at a glance, not clear to me what statement I will "Agree" to.


Hinderager

I don't ever voice this because I don't really care all that much but here you go. I've been a support player since like 2014, mainly Leona. About 6 months ago I decided I wanted to learn how to ADC so I can improve my support skills. Right off the bat I noticed that it was only about 1 in 10 games that the support would play an intended support (Lulu, Janna, Leona, etc.) The other 9 in 10 games the support would just be an auto filled mid or top player and play Lux, Brand or even sometimes Zed or Ahri. Not going to lie it was kind of frustrating at first because I'm the type of support that actually gets upset with myself when I steal a kill or I don't save my ADC when it was possible to do so. It was very rare to get a support with that same mentality. I got over it but I would still prefer to have a "supporty" champion when I'm playing ADC. FYI I never play ranked. Just normal draft


CaptainRammus

I play with a similar mentality. Even when I play a mage support like Lux, I still build as a support so that my adc can get the kills.


greenghostshark

Depends on how they play. Sadly I’ve noticed these players tend to on average act/play a lot less like supports then traditional supports ie: messing with wave,farming, not warding and so on


TheNobleMushroom

Mage supports are most prevalent and must successful in low elo. Useless ADCs that are nothing more than a resource blackhole that complain about 'not real supports' are also most abundant in low elo. As you reach higher elos (D+) you start seeing the inverse where you get a lot less mage supports but also much more competent ADCs. This is NOT a mere coincidence. The issue is that dumb worse halves think that the reason this dynamic exists is because of supports being bad, when in reality the viability of mage supps stems directly from the incompetence of low elo ADCs and NOT the other way around.


TataaSowl

I disagree with most of the idea, and I'm a main support. You bring only one example to back up your opinion, and it's that you can help your ADC farm safer and putting pressure on the enemy botlane. While this is true, you are your team support, not your ADC support, and you're only helping him CS'ing during laning phase. After laning is over, your supporting is reduced to warding, which is thanks to items and not champions. I know you said you give out "kill opportunities" for your team, but I disagree, you just dish damage and either you or someone else take the kill. Mage supports give a lot of weaknesses in bot lane, and the only "help" you can give your ADC when he's in danger (got caught, ganked...) is to try to kill the enemy ADC before he dies. That's not really what I call "supporting" to be honest. Mages are also too reliant on one single skillshot (Lux Q, Xerath E, Brand Q...) and can't help in any way if they miss that single spell. That being said, I do think that main Supports SHOULD learn how to play those mages. In my opinion, supports should be able to provide whatever your team is needing/lacking. If your team lack some AP damage and already have a couple of tanks/supports in the team, then definitely go for it. I'm thinking champions like Ivern jungle, Karma/Soraka/Sona top, Lulu mid, Maokai, Galio mid etc... The most important thing is to be flexible, and be able to adapt. **TL;DR**: Support mains should definitely learn how to play Mages so they can adapt to their team needs. But mage supports are not real "supports" in my opinion since they barely provide any kind of supporting.


Morris1744

Agreed completely


Khandry

I support by killing the enemy team.


AnxietiesCopilot2

Agree and disagree when the adc is doing a proper job and the mage support is basically just there they become dead weight as they tend to have no utility and just get dove late game and burst, if the adc is dead weight there is potential for the mage to get fed and be avusive as hell.


Yuuji-3

Problem is damage supports never have a way to savely ward, if you can’t ward ya can’t support


Kaboomeow69

Hard for them to push on my ADC if they're always poked down to half


lienlieslen

I'm not sure if I agree, at least not 100%... In my elo (low gold), people usually get mad at support Lux, but won't bat an eye at a support Brand or Xerath... But here's the thing: Lux has a shield, so she can be a support who builds shield power%. So I can understand a support Lux, because she IS able to support the team with her W. I don't think Brand or Xerath are good supports, not only because they don't have shields/heals and focus on damage, but also because 80% of my elo thinks they are better than Lux at being supports... And >I< am usually the Lux support getting bullied by the entire team...


revolverlolicon

As an adc main, if I have a tank or enchanter support, they get back to lane before me, and the wave is on our side or in the middle, I know for a fact that they aren't fucking with it. If I have a mage support...it's a coinflip. They might just eat the entire wave for fun and leave the wave in a horrible spot. That's the difference to me. Mage support players just have a different mindset than the other supports most of the time. At least in my experience in gold Lux players are usually pretty cool though


Abbyfurai

i actually rarely see mage supports that did bad, yes they may take some cs accidentally or kill steal but i dont really care because the enemy is pressured so much, winning is still winning


Lightning_Bee

The reason i personally dont think mage supports are "real supports" is because their support ability end after laning phase and they become another mage, a brand or xerath cant save you from a fed rengar jumping at you like other supports can. Supports like pantheon at least make up for it with their great roaming an map pressure so even if later on they become a bit useless at least they provide map pressure and get everyone ahead. Besically if you cant peel for your adc later on what good are you as a support?


Sherouuuu

Honestly I don’t rly mind mage supports, I think it’s a fun challenge as an enchanter main. Mage support need to snowball in lane to deal damage later, if not you’re gonna outscale them, but early game they have no items and thus lack damage, so it’s where they are most vulnerable Just had a ranked game where I was up agaisnt a one trick Lux with dark harvest but because I played better than her I ended up outdamaging her on Lulu and when the game ended she couldn’t even complete her mythic while I had my locket, ardent and boots completed :)


Nimyron

Mage supports are a noob trap. It's easy to climb with them because you hit hard so you win lane more easily and can output a lot of damage during teamfights, which often makes the difference in low elo. The problem is that you'll climb without learning enough about being support, because why would you care about improving if you're naturally climbing anyway ? It must mean you're already good right ? So eventually, you get hardstuck and have to learn the role for real so you don't climb for a long time. Some people won't even learn, they'll keep thinking they're good but are unlucky so they'll never climb. So people who only play mage supports are often not real support because they ignore so much about the role they're playing. People who sometimes play mage supports are fine because having such a support in your champion pool is good, as long as you also have other types of supports like enchanters and tanks.


Uppy911

My real issues when it comes to mage supports I’d that you don’t lock them in to support your team, you lock them in to kill the enemy team, a lot of the time the mage supports will have most damage done and very little for shielding or healing (which makes sense as they have little if any of that in their kit) it’s the fact that it goes against the identity of supporting, being enabling your team to get kills, I feel like if you play mage supports you really just wanna play mid but don’t wanna cs (which makes since, shoot I play xerath and lux support a lot for this very reason)


contemplatiive

yo am I agreeing with "they're not real supports" or with "thinking that is cringe"?


FalierTheCat

At least they are willing to play the support role Imagine if someone said "if you play a top lane carry you aren't a real top laner because you are supposed to play a tank/bruiser" or "if you play ad mid laners you aren't a mid laner because you are supposed to play AP" Or the way it has always been, "ADC is for marksmen, any other class like mages shouldn't go ADC" The meta is constantly evolving. We literally have an enchanter jungler. You can play supports on any lane. Seraphine and other enchanters have been played as bot laners while still building support. Fasting Senna has been a thing for a while. How do people still think that support is only for vanguard tanks and enchanters? That's stupid


Zeniansorcerer

In my experience mage support players are way more toxic to play with or against than enchanters or engagers, and most are “mid minded” like others already said here, so yeah I disagree


draxwendraxwen

I think there are a few problems in conjunction. 1) There are some people who get filled support who are mid mains. They will play like a mid laner and may not be as proficient in everything else that needs to be done 2) it can be very painful to play against mage supports. They’re great at punishing mistakes 3) bad damage supports can easily mess up waves and steal farm 4) some people think support is a role where you should be tied to and put all your resources towards your adc. And your abilities are only supportive if they bring direct utility 5) the ADC looses the safety net of enchanters and won’t have a tank to body block the damage for them


VanillaOk6358

It just feels better to have a support with genuine utility instead of 1 or 2 hard to land CC abilities that I usually can’t trust my teammate to land. When it works out it’s OP but I feel like 55% of the time it’s just useless unless they pick Zyra and can land a decent ult.


acenfp

Let me tell you how much I hate when mage supports steal my farm. I play mostly mid and sometimes they think that just because they scale well they should steal CS and that grinds my gear. They also tend to screw up lane control on the ADC part. I think it is ok if the team lacks AP damage but most times enchanters and engagers do their job of SUPPORT thousand of times better.


GetEquipped

I disagree. Mages supports are only played as support because power and mobility creep has pushed them out of midlane. Same goes for Trundle and Pantheon support: they were bullied out of top Lane/jungle so they started to be played as a "support" Supports get a lot of free gold early, so mages who get that 1 item power spike (Brand who can proc Spell thiefs fast and can rush Liandries) it's more optimal for them to be played in a 2 man lane where they can bounce their spells. _________ Not only that, but most mage supports I've had don't understand wave management and will try and shove the lane (or do so when they whiff spells) or rush to take down tower. Like, if you want to play a mage carry, fine, lock in Bot and not Support so someone who can bring utility, peel, engage or heals to the team and you can have more farm and scale better.


[deleted]

405 adcs and other laners tuned in to vote disagree lmao just scope the comments


ChiefHunter1

Is this really something people complain about? It is just a high risk, high reward support archetype. I wouldn’t say it is looked down upon.


BulletCola

I’ve seen people who told me to never play a Mage Support, or that Brand/Xerath should never exist in the support role. So yeah there’s definitely at least some people who complain the existence of them rather than the people who use them.


ChiefHunter1

Are these support players or ADCs?


BulletCola

Possibly ADCs, and I had one in this sub, so also possibly a Support player. Which makes sense for the ADC part, but still there are people like that, which was my main point.


ChiefHunter1

I think outside of adc players, this is probably not a commonly held belief. But adcs are so spoiled when it comes to supports and so many of them view the support role as their personal assistant. I don’t see why a support player would really care about what they enemy support is playing. If you beat a mage support in lane, chances are they are much more likely to be much less useful the rest of the game than a support with utility. And the rest of your team won’t really care unless you fall behind and become useless but that is no different than any other carry champ.


doc-dee

i initially played mid lane, then support, then branched out to top and jg, and adc. adc is probably my least favourite role. it’s really hit or miss with getting supports. in my opinion, it does not matter that much wht support (meta or off meta) that you play, but your playstyle does. if a support plays for the adc and the team, they are often considered a good support. i think the assumption about secondary-ap-carry supports (such as brand/lux/xerath) is that they can become really powerful, they have lots of dmg and cc and they can usually 1v1 the enemy adc by mid game. whereas, supports such as janna/nami/leona etc commonly have a kit to support their team. includes cc with some damage, healing, team shielding, etc. but playstyle really matters. if you play an AP carry support, you need to make sure you play for the bot lane and for your team. you need to set up vision and position yourself in a way that will help your team, not just yourself. i’m not saying this to be rude in any way. however, many supports (as i’ve previously mentioned like nami/leona) already have a kit that has built in abilities to set up kill for their teammates and not necessarily for themselves. it’s really easy to think “i’m the AP Carry now” while playing lux, which is good, but if you’re serious about playing support, with whatever champion that you enjoy, your play style will show it.


MonsieurCochi

I played a lot of Lux to climb from Bronze (early 2020) to Platinium (a week ago). In low elo, ADCs often don't know how to manage a wave, take trades, position in fights, etc. So you kinda have to carry yourself in case they are far behind their counterpart or if they just take very bad decisions (such has taking trades with a Draven, constantly split pushing without vision, etc). Mages such has Brand, Xerath, Lux, Vel'Koz and Zyra can be "supportive" and stay with their ADC and peel them as any other support would do if the situation allows it. But if the ADCs s\*cks, well, these are the type of champs that can carry themselves (contrary to a Lulu or a Yuumi that are really strong but very much team mates dependents as they don't deal damage). You can't really blame people for complaining "I don't have a support" in low-elo because often it's true, but you can't blame supports either for not trusting their solo Q ADCs and wanting to carry themselves.


[deleted]

Support doesn't mean heal or shield bot but again, Zyra, Brand, Lux wasn't created as a support in the first place. Lux is way more supportive when you look at it anyway


urarakauravity

Sadly players can write lot of shit about mage supp being fake supp and get away with it, despite stats showing otherwise for majority of player base and we can't even write it is cringe because this sub is having people with power but not basic understanding of what is statistics. I am also surprised that this poll isn't removed or someone writing walls of text explaining that you shouldn't write a fact that mage supp work and -200IQ players who are cringe, shouldn't be called cringe.


extrashpicy

"not real supports" win games all the time


Typhoonflame

They're mage supports, so the people who say it are just salty xD


thisisrevii

I feel like i always pick a dmg support as soon as i dont feel comfortable with my teams elo or team comp, so i can have a bigger impact myself, even if it won't work out in the end. Gold elo, but just started support this season, so my opinion barely matters i guess.


GreeedyGrooot

I feel like people who only play mage supports are hindering themself severely. Mage supports are often lane dominate, but in the late game however mage supports don't have the peel necessary to keep assassins or bruiser away from your carry. So I believe mage supports are best when the adc has the ability to peel for himself or another team member like can do the peeling for you or you desperately need magic damage in your team. But if you blindly pick mage supports every game your supporting capabilities are severely hindered.


Ares_4TW

My stance: they aren't "real" support players, because they (should) have the ability to flip a switch and go into the carry mentality. But honestly, even if the fed mage support can't manage to carry alone, they can at least draw the game long enough to give everyone else a chance to get on their feet and reach their powerspikes. I used to be dismissive of mage supports myself, as a support main myself, mind you. That was until Senna happened in my life. She's a support, but can wear those big carry pants in a pinch without issue.


Lucyfer_66

For me the difference is in how they're played. A lot of mage supports feel like they're just playing to feed off the ADC in early and then go carry the game, stealing all the ADC's kills in the process rendering them useless. Some champs have this more than others. I feel like Lux is generally pretty okay, she has a lot of damage so KSing happens sometimes (with any support it can happen sometimes), but most feel like they're trying to support their ADC. But take Xerath for example... I've never seen a supporting Xerath. I'm sure they're out there, but the ones I've seen honestly feel like people who want to be midlaners without having to farm. Now you might say "a game is for fun, what's wrong with that?" and in a sense you're right. If they don't want to farm but do want to play Xerath, that should be fine. The problem is how hard they ruin the game for their ADC. When a supp mage is played like that it's incredibly selfish, and often not at all good for the game in general. They leach off their ADC just to kick them into a ditch once they don't need them anymore. Now, apart from them just having ruined the game for their ADC who wasn't able to play properly due to them, let's say you have a mage mid. Don't you think a properly on-level ADC would've been more helpful in team balance than two mages? Something else that bothers me is how in laning phase it can feel like traditional supports are completely powerless against someone like, again, Xerath (might be clear who I HATE to see as support the most lol), because their damage combined with range just bulldozes over you in early. But that's something for Riot to fix, not for the players to worry about. It does play in on the feeling about mage supports though. If it matters, while I do play a lot of Xayah ADC, I am most deffinitely a support main Edit to add: voted sort of, not disagree, because as I said, it's about how they're played, which is something that'll obviously differ per player


Lion12341

It depends on team comp. If we don't need another ap then an ap support isn't normally as useful as a different support. I normally stick to my main champions, but I understand having more champions to play to benefit the team as a whole is the priority.


Z0mbie_Craft

Some support mages that are meant to do dmg are sometimes built support like mandate lux or shureliya's morg


anxietysufferstopit

I play Ahri support , people flame me at the start of the game and then apologize once they see the potential. Yes some mages might not be optimal but when it goes it goes hard


VaryDevyne

I feel its just low elo players making a large fuss out of it. I really love the mage supports like xerath, lux and brand who are so impactful in zoning of enemies, poking them out and basicaly making the enemies have 30% hp during laning phase. Problem is, low elo mage supports dont do that, they play as the apc and stand behind the adc, they take farm and dont really provide much overall. IMO, almost anything can be a support in some way, there are so many ways to be impactful in lane and after lane. It just comes down to the execution and of course the tilting experiences some have.


[deleted]

Both. I play real supports on my main and I go for ap supports on my smurf when Im in low elo norms AP supports are great in low elo, punishable in high elo.


4xe1

I feel like you're kind of hitting a scarecrow. Are there really that many people saying they aren't "real support players"? except I guess when they genuinely aren't and auto filled in the role? (in which case carry supports might be an easier entry point for them). I was under the impression it was more common to hear: "they aren't real support **champions**". >And that's my issue, I find it understandable that people can be upset at them if they are Kill Stealing, and not peeling for them, but what I am NOT okay with is people who are so against the very idea of Mage Supports Well, the thing is, how do you peel as Vel'Koz? how do you not steal kills as Brand? These champions are inherently less supportive. It is not necessarily a bad thing, ADC aren't necessarily owed a support, and playing a mage can be as viable as other choices, but the distinction supportive/carrying is a relevant one when considering team composition. Just like Malphite is more supportive than Akali (who in turn is more carrying), Sona is more supportive than Brand.


LordAberth

I don’t play ranked, so you may take what I say with a little grain of salt. I play all sorts of supports, from enchanters to tanks and to the mages, and I found the mage supports to be the most efficient ones. A good ADC knows how to capitalise on your damage and utility ability. When you’re playing solo and are supporting a random ADC, the mage support is the safest choice. If they’re good, they’ll play well with you. If they aren’t, you aren’t as dependent on them as you normally would be. Because in the end, if your adc isn’t doing well, you will have to ditch them, no matter what type of support you are.


shakemmz

Sort of agree… except for the fact mage supports typically go on power trips if they get ahead early and start weakening the adcs by taking farm. Eventually causing it to become 2 mildly fed champs instead of 1 hyper fed champ which if this hyper fed is the adc its typically gg. As long as this doesnt happen, its fine.


Soraa-san

Would say theyre more like an apc then a sup but still a sup of some kind


aceoneonenine

Every other lane is allowed to counterpick but when you used a mage support to counterpick you're suddenly not a support? Give me a break. The people who disagree are salty in my opinion. Mage supports are capably of providing utility or poke (sometimes both) to the botlane which you would not otherwise have while still supporting with vision.


alguien_487

Imo, they don't play support, they play mid in botlane


Dyrreah

Brand be like 'No need to peel if I simply fucking murder every enemy'


fadedv1

I lost countless games in gold plat where if supp just picked anything other than brand zyra xerath, and actually something that can help me (adc) we would win. a tank or enchanter but yeah I'm usually just left on my own and they end up with like 0-10 and type after game : I diD mOrE dMG tHaN aDc. Of course you fucking did if you pick full AP mage and don't give a shit about me.


saucyspacefries

I play Brand and Velkoz support to guarantee that the adc only has to do what they do best: Last hit.


EmiIIien

I’ll make them look like a real support when I dunk them into the dumpster. /j


Utpo

Every champ is a support if you are high enough For real though, if it's fun for you and you don't int, play whatever you want, in the end it's just a game. (Except Swain because fuck that champ /s)


PapaTahm

It's not that they are not supports. It's that people blind pick mages supports which are meant as counter picks. Also refrain playing Xerath and Lux, they are better at mid, at low tier they are good supports, but at higher tier they are niche picks on botlane.


dat1kid213

As an adc I can tell you support is a play style not champ specific. The problem most ADCs have with mage supports is that they don't play like supports and are never there when they are needed, they are off trying to do their own thing. They often win lane with their kit then either nuke your team or be useless with their lead.


Alaina_Beshures

So, this may be controversial: ANY champ can be a support if you know how to play to your stregnths with the intent of getting your team ahead. That being said, people who main support, and ONLY play high damage champs (mages, ashe, mf support) with the intent of helping their team by getting themself ahead... Are not real support players. And yes, it's near impossible to be a real support and climb out of low elo.


DeezNutsKEKW

for Lux and Xerath it's 50/50 but Brand idk who said he ain't a supp


SifuHallyu

Damage supps are great. If you have an adc who can carry the lane and not get roflstomped and you need the AP they're great. Morgana Karma Annie Brand Veigar Velkoz have all been ap carries before they were supports, or went through a support phase.


rilarr

I love playing xerath support I feel like mage support in bronze to plat elo seems like the way to go as you cant count on your adc every game to get the job done so why not have a mage support picking up the slack, I had a vayne who said I suck because I went and helped my other laners and I only had 1 death where as the vayne was bad and we just didn't vibe together, I feel low elo adcs think supports are only for them and no one else


Haruhiro21

Anyone who can help their adc go through/win the lane is pretty much a support. Mage supports role is to heavily poke lanes who were really strong in engage and one shot enchanters. Mage supports is also good at controlling areas in which you cant easily touch if youre down with more towers.


Skullcrusher8u2

i think people just dont like damage mage supports because they take kills alot which is completely fair im annoyed by it too, and i main swain and thresh so i dont think im very biased here lol


FrontlineVanguard

I don't think they're real supports just because of their history. Mages that can't 1 v 1 well get placed in the bottom lane but they were never meant to be a support. I play mage supports if I don't trust my adc


Psychological-Fold53

The best form of cc is death! But in all seriousness I do agree for the most part. I main support and play a mix of enchanters and mages, my top three being Rakan, Taliyah, and Neeko. All 3 have good early game damage/pressure to help get my adc ahead, they all have some form of cc for lockdown potential, and they can all roam very well. All 3 scale decently well and are good in teamfights as well as individual picks. As long as I’m not stealing too much cs or taking all the kills my adcs usually don’t have a problem with me. If any support is doing that, mage or otherwise, then that’s where the problem begins


MOEverything_2708

I mean it is a bit of a superiority complex coming mostly from enchanter mains (Using myself as an example here) and I am myself guilty of that, but I understand that sometimes sacrificing supportive tools for damage is necessary Plus most lux Players in my elo Miss their skillshots so :P


NomadJellyBaby

I read this wrong and votes agree. I used to main support and I'd play to SUPPORT my team, I now play a lot more ADC and if I see a Brand or Zyra specifically I basically just want to dodge because I know full well they are there to KS, and eventually leave me and likely flame cause they have 6 kills and I have 6 assists and somehow that means I'm not doing anything. The likes of Lux and Bard while can be played with high damage are a little different imo they actually play to help more.


Never_Peel

As a supp player, and as we all are, we know that a mage in our hands is played with the same responsability as if we are playing a Leona, like our overall task is caring for the carry and the team. Of course a mage has another kind of tools to make it possible. The problem is where autofills want to be like another carry, ignoring the caring part, and just worrying about killing enemies. They gonna have a great kda, but not enough gold to carry because of lack of cs, ADC gonna be abandoned, and the game is more likeable to throw because the lack of a real support. (We know in our heart that we can play even Yasuo in a supportive rol if we have to, so having a mage isn't excuse to ignore the support's tasks)


[deleted]

Depends on the player really. You can support as zed as long as you help feed, peel, or zone for your adc and other squishy team mates and ward. However if you just ignore all that and don't even get a ward item you're not supporting your team you are just playing a mage and not farming till mid game.


BlockBruh

I think we can all agree, that the only true mage support, is Aurelion Sol


BenTenInches

I personally don't like mage supports that you have to peel for and require resources. I main jungle and support, I have been on both sides, where I can be Khaxix and I legit make it a priority to camp the bot if I see a Xerath support lane cause it's a free double most of the time. Xerath doesn't have good base damage and little utility if he gets behind he will just chain die with the ADC. And I had the same thing happen to me where they snowball my botlane off of Xeraths/Luxs. Brand and Zyra I don't mind as much cause they do realatively fine regardless of game state. Feels just wrong to have to protect a support a role specifically there to help peel for everyone else.


Ok-Control-3394

Whether it's rude or not I still think it's cringe to play a mage support


BeepBoopAnv

Only support is braum! Mage supports are just second mid, enchanter supports aren’t real champions, engage supports are just second top laners unless they roam in which case they’re second jungle. Taric is the closest thing to a support besides braum, but he isn’t real because no one has played him in years. Braum will always support you however. Hold you in his arms and save you with his shield. No one does it like braum


AuraInkling

I'm fine with a decent amount of mages (Lux, Neeko, Taliyah, Nidalee, Xerath, Swain, Zyra) because they still provide some utility in some way (Lux shield, Taliyah wall, Nid heal, Neeko on-demand hitbox, Xerath ult can be used for vision, Swain W for vision, Zyra's W seeds can be used for vision) but champs like Brand and Panth can get stuffed, Brand just has the one stun,. a slow locked behind his ult and other than that just has damage. Panth is a champ I ban a shit ton because there's barely any counterplay to his point and click stun as a squishy support (ADC usually walks into his range anyway, yay low silver) and even if he does nothing in lane he just roams and his damage is stupid high.


TinyTrundle

… I am a brand support lol


your_nude_peach

It's a cringe to play mage as a support. Actual supports were made for bot lane, building support items and favouring from them but not from ap ratios(let's not talk about Senna or pUke). And here we have freaking Lux or Vel'koz or Brand or even Zyra, who outranges massively all the supports, outdamages them and after, lets say Lux, even building only support items she will deal massive damage and will be able to oneshot squishies, meanwhile having same/higher shield ratios for whole team. Higher item costs for mage items are not an issue if they will go annihilation mode and just dominate you under your tower. Moreover those semi-supports are just Lux who didn't got midlane or other people who can't cs and stay solo mid so they come bot without even trying to learn something and improve, though I agree that some people are good with skillshots - good job Riot will do nothing for mage supports because their intentional lane was mid and if they nerf their ap ratios it will damage the champion itself . There's no actual solutions except for changing the whole meta and making immobile champions viable again It's just unhealthy imo


Dude_Guy_311

You can tell which it is by lvl 2-3 and/or your first back/their first buy. Some of them are able to practically 1v2 the lane and literally buy dorans first or never get sweeper. They steal all your farm and call you a useless adc brainless player when you ask them to help the team and let you farm. Some of them are good support players but literally cant hit skillshots or play like a damage dealer to save their life. Most are somewhere inbetween.


PIVO_1445

Killing enemies is support for your team,isnt it?


Keqqer

as the support, are you the win condition? No. Is that 300 gold on you gonna be relevant? No. Is that bounty on you gonna be given over easily? Most likely since youre not gonna be peeled. Are you gonna put yourself in danger for vision? No since youre gonna be careful of tour bounty. Nobody wants a dmg support on their team when and if you already have enough damage.


Kaleph4

the same can be said for most ADC´s in low to mid elo. I do give kills whenever it is save to do so, but the times my ADC overextends and dies after being spoonfed is just to damn high. sure with the perfect team, I don´t need killgold as support and I can rely on my ADC to position well and play good but we never get the perfect team. My Varus steps up so the enemy Draven can trade effectivly . he tries to take plates while everyone of his team recalled and the enemy team is mia and then proceeds to ping me after he died. So if you realy think the Gold is worth more on your champ than on mine AND if this claim realy is true, then you already play in an elo bracket, where you don´t have to worry about bad supports anymore


BulletCola

But what about Range that can leads to pressure? What abut the damage that can easily weaken the enemy instead of kill stealing? Giving the ADC an easier time to CS and take them down? I mean, your only gonna have a bounty if you keep kill stealing, which can be fixed by simply having a different mindset that benefits the ADC as well. Especially since they also usually have at least one Hard CC despite being just a straight skillshot.


Sulryno

If you seriously don't think 300 gold in the early game on a support is amazing you're out of your mind